Help Me Purchase Our Next Vehicle(s)

[Kronsey]

Hello folks,

I am seeking advice/suggestions on our next vehicle(s) to be purchased. We've done good the last few month by turning our clown car habits around, but could use some insight into the upcoming vehicle purchase(s).

Getting Rid of Toys & Gas Hogs

Last month, I sold my fishing boat that wasn't getting used all that much. Maybe something I pick back up after FIRE, but it didn't make sense for now. Plus my family has a lake house with awesome fishing, so I can still enjoy the activity with my kids without needing a clown car to tow it back and forth to the lake.

Last week, I sold our minivan that was over-sized for our needs. She was a faithful grocery getter, but she was only averaging 20 MPG or so. It was tough for my wife to part with the minivan, and I am thankful she is coming around toward more Mustachian thinking regarding vehicles (big win compared to just a few months ago).

I still need to sell our Honda Pilot (our current daily driver) and an F-150 (used to haul boat and for random projects - it never gets driven). I expect to net $8,000 - $9,000 total for those two vehicles. They are both high(er) mileage cars which is the reason for the lowish expected cash upon sale.

I currently have $6,300 cash from the sale of the van in addition to the expected cash from the vehicles above. Let's say $15,000 total to be conservative.

Current Situation & Vehicle Needs

We are a family of 4 - me, my wife, and two young sons (7 & 4). I am fortunate to work from home, and my wife is a SAHM/wife. I occasionally need a vehicle to meet with clients for lunch, and I'd say that occurs approximately once a month or so. We are trying to get better at driving less. I'm shooting for under 10,000 miles/year total which hasn't been the case in the past. We averaged almost 17,000/year in the van :). In fairness, that did include a couple of long distance vacations each year, but still clown car driving habits for sure.

Do We Need Two Vehicles?

We very rarely have any conflicts that can't be planned around. And if we get a little better on managing our schedules on the same Google Calendar a week in advance, it should be easy to plan around potential conflicts. I like the idea of having a beater second car, but based on the last few months it will be driven very little (maybe 200-300 miles a year if the current trends continue).

If we go the two car route, here are the options for that 2nd car: a Pontiac Vibe, Corolla, Prius, Nissan Leaf, or a Chevy Volt. I've done a lot of reading on the Leaf, Volt, and Prius as I am unfamiliar/hesitant with an EV or hybrid. It just doesn't seem worth the extra cost to buy the EV or the hybrid with as little driving as we are planning.

I have found a couple of good deals on a Vibe and a Corolla.

The Vibe is a 2009 with the 1.8 engine with 59,000 miles. Original owner with all service history. The wife did scrape the side by running into the garage door. I've called around a few places and quotes are ranging from $1,200 - $1,800 to fix the damage. The car drives just fine as is and would only be fixed for cosmetic purposes. The owner is asking $5,600. I am considering offering $4,600 due to the body damage. The mainenance and service history is really good. My parents have the same Vibe and it has 240,000 miles with absolutely nothing but oil changes, breaks, and tires. I've heard the 2.4 engines have some oil leak issues, but not so much on the smaller (and more fuel efficient) 1.8 engine that Toyota uses in most of their small car line ups.

I also have found a 2011 Toyota Corolla LE. It is a one owner with good service history as well. It has only 40,000 miles. Nothing wrong with it mechanically or cosmetically. The owner is firm at $7,900. It has the same 1.8 engine in the Vibe.

For a Prius, I just haven't found anything under $10K that hasn't had over 100,000 miles. And I just don't want to spend that much or more on a second vehicle.

Same for a Volt or Leaf. Keep in mind that for an EV or hybrid I would probably need to travel a good bit to find a great deal. We live in the midwest in a city/area of 250,000 people or so. It is still "not cool" to drive one of those options so therefore the used car market for them is slim (just not many available for sale that aren't run in the ground).

One Car Option

For the main car, we both really like the newer Honda CRVs. We would get a FWD which does a little better on fuel economy. I think we can average 30+ MPG as we do a decent amount of highway driving and I drive pretty conservatively. Depending on trim level, there are many options to get a low mileage (under 20,000 miles) CRV for under $20K. We could go older/higher miles, but we are planning on keeping this car for 15+ years and would like something that will last.

We've also considering using the Vibe or Corolla (or something similar) as our only car, but my wife likes the idea of ample cargo space in the rear as we occasionally haul our dog and/or to have extra room for when we go on vacation.

It is also a consideration that I would like a "nicer" vehicle when I do have face to face client meetings. I don't think it needs to be a Mercedes, but I may get some funny looks if I rolled up in a 11 year old Vibe. This could all be my own internal perceptions and fears, so don't hold back with the face punches if necessary.

Summary

So, I think we have narrowed it down to a few options:

1. Buy the Vibe or Corolla first with cash, and then sell the other two vehicles. See if we are able to get by with one car with no issues/problems. See if my wife and I are both satisfied settling for something smaller than a CRV. If we are satisfied, great, we only have one vehicle and it was the cheapest option with the best gas mileage. If not, we can then purchase the CRV at a later time.

2. Buy a CRV with a loan, and then sell the other two vehicles and pay off the CRV. Same as above, we would shoot to be a one car family and if it didn't work out, we could always buy a similar car described above. With this option, we are buying the car we both want and not compromising anything. But we are out more cash and are sacrificing some fuel economy.

Thanks in advance for reading and for your help!

[use2betrix]

Depending where you live, as a “second” vehicle, you may be able to find a little use moped for around town. You can probably find something that gets around 75-100 mpg for under $1000.

FYI - I’d pick a Toyota over a Pontiac any day. A lot of it depends on vehicle condition, history, etc. A beat up corolla by someone who never took care of it by it’s 10 owners is probably worse off than a 1 owner Pontiac owned by a responsible adult that maintained it well.

[CindyBS]

We did the 1 car thing with kids for a few years, we eventually had to stop due to some medical issues with my son and needing to get to many appointments.

However, overall it worked.  We all biked and walked a lot more, and with busses and Uber could fill in the gaps as needed.  Things like getting a lot of groceries from the grocery store at once are really hard to do with anything other than a car, so I ended up taking the car for that and it really was just a scheduling thing.   

One thing we did I would recommend is that we pretended we only had 1 car for 2-3 months before we actually ditched the car to see how it would work.  Also, I always thought that if we needed a car, we could rent one.  The few times we did that it was a kind of a pain and we did not do it that much. 

Know the 1 car thing could end whenever you want if needed.  So many people would ask questions like "well, what happens if you get a new job you have to drive to?"  Umm, I'd buy a car.

[FLAFI]

Is your Honda Pilot paid off? It's a sub-optimal vehicle in terms of MPG but with two growing children and not a lot of driving it may be good choice unless you're going to take a significant deprecation hit holding on to the vehicle. There will be transaction costs associated with acquiring a new (used) vehicle which may not be offset by improved mileage, particularly with the CRV option.   

Why not keep the Honda, and if you need two cars, buy a used fuel efficient Toyota compact car with cash?     

[FLAFI]

FYI - I’d pick a Toyota over a Pontiac any day. A lot of it depends on vehicle condition, history, etc. A beat up corolla by someone who never took care of it by it’s 10 owners is probably worse off than a 1 owner Pontiac owned by a responsible adult that maintained it well.

The Vibe is actually a rebadged Toyota.

[Kronsey]

FYI - I’d pick a Toyota over a Pontiac any day. A lot of it depends on vehicle condition, history, etc. A beat up corolla by someone who never took care of it by it’s 10 owners is probably worse off than a 1 owner Pontiac owned by a responsible adult that maintained it well.

The Vibe is actually a rebadged Toyota.

Yes, it was a joint project between GM and Toyota.

The Vibe is the exact same car as the Toyota Matrix except for the body panels, badges, and front end design. There may be a few other small differences, but the nuts and bolts are exactly the same.

Because the public isn't aware of this, you can often find a Vibe for a couple thousand cheaper than a comparable Matrix.

The Vibe is the only Pontiac I would ever consider :)

[pecunia]

You had a boat.  I didn't note whether you still had to pull a trailer of any sort.  I have a trailer and a Ford Focus so the trailer has been idle for a few years.

Would an electric bicycle help as a grocery getter?  It may be cheaper and less troublesome than anything with an internal combustion engine.

[use2betrix]

FYI - I’d pick a Toyota over a Pontiac any day. A lot of it depends on vehicle condition, history, etc. A beat up corolla by someone who never took care of it by it’s 10 owners is probably worse off than a 1 owner Pontiac owned by a responsible adult that maintained it well.

The Vibe is actually a rebadged Toyota.

Was it also manufactured at Toyota’s plant?

[Kronsey]

FYI - I’d pick a Toyota over a Pontiac any day. A lot of it depends on vehicle condition, history, etc. A beat up corolla by someone who never took care of it by it’s 10 owners is probably worse off than a 1 owner Pontiac owned by a responsible adult that maintained it well.

The Vibe is actually a rebadged Toyota.

Was it also manufactured at Toyota’s plant?

https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/3357/pontiac-vibe-vs-toyota-matrix-six-of-one-a-half-dozen-of-the-other/

[Kronsey]

We did the 1 car thing with kids for a few years, we eventually had to stop due to some medical issues with my son and needing to get to many appointments.

However, overall it worked.  We all biked and walked a lot more, and with busses and Uber could fill in the gaps as needed.  Things like getting a lot of groceries from the grocery store at once are really hard to do with anything other than a car, so I ended up taking the car for that and it really was just a scheduling thing.   

One thing we did I would recommend is that we pretended we only had 1 car for 2-3 months before we actually ditched the car to see how it would work.  Also, I always thought that if we needed a car, we could rent one.  The few times we did that it was a kind of a pain and we did not do it that much. 

Know the 1 car thing could end whenever you want if needed.  So many people would ask questions like "well, what happens if you get a new job you have to drive to?"  Umm, I'd buy a car.

Thank you for your suggestions @CindyBS. Many of your suggestions we've already tried with success. We have shared one car for a few months now with only a few hiccups that were avoidable. I meant to mention that in the OP. I also agree we could rent a car or use Uber if we got in a bind.

I think we've passed that test with flying colors.

[Kronsey]

Is your Honda Pilot paid off? It's a sub-optimal vehicle in terms of MPG but with two growing children and not a lot of driving it may be good choice unless you're going to take a significant deprecation hit holding on to the vehicle. There will be transaction costs associated with acquiring a new (used) vehicle which may not be offset by improved mileage, particularly with the CRV option.   

Why not keep the Honda, and if you need two cars, buy a used fuel efficient Toyota compact car with cash?   

@FLAFI - Yes, the Honda Pilot is paid off. It is high mileage though (212K or so). I don't want it to start nickel and diming us. Plus we are only averaging 17 MPG or so. We are talking about doubling the MPG with the cars we are considering.

Not sure what you mean by transaction costs (unless you meant financing costs). In my state, I can apply the sales price of my vehicles being sold toward the sales tax owed on the new vehicle purchased. So if we went with the Vibe or Corolla, it would be completely free of transaction costs if completed within 30 days (van would be a net wash). If the CRV, it would be pretty minimal. Still something to consider, I do agree.

Basically I don't want to keep the Honda due to low MPG and potential for future needed repairs. It is in phenomenal shape for a vehicle with that many miles, and I'd like to get what I can out of it now before the miles and repairs keep increasing. We also just don't need that much room. It comfortably seats 7 and is built like a tank. We're trying to go the other direction.

[Kronsey]

You had a boat.  I didn't note whether you still had to pull a trailer of any sort.  I have a trailer and a Ford Focus so the trailer has been idle for a few years.

Would an electric bicycle help as a grocery getter?  It may be cheaper and less troublesome than anything with an internal combustion engine.

We have a trailer that is sort of shared among our families (ours, my in-laws, and my grandparents-in-law). It is just used for the occasional remodeling or oddball project. I'd say I use it a few times a year at max, but definitely not regularly nor do I need it for my profession (I'm a bean counter by trade). For the few times I do need it, I can borrow a family member's truck and/or rent one from Uhaul for the day.

So I don't really need towing capacity except for once in a blue moon. I'm not willing to carry insurance and have the truck sit in the driveway because I may use it someday.

I think we will stay away from an electric bike and/or scooter. We have plenty of opportunities to get groceries as is with just one vehicle.

The more I think about it and the more I discuss with my wife (she has been reading along too), the more I am convinced we can easily get by with one vehicle. I work from home 99.9% of the time. My wife stays home. We homeschool our kids and they aren't over-programmed at this point (an activity or two a week at max). I can't really think of any feasible reason for why we can't make this work.

[use2betrix]

FYI - I’d pick a Toyota over a Pontiac any day. A lot of it depends on vehicle condition, history, etc. A beat up corolla by someone who never took care of it by it’s 10 owners is probably worse off than a 1 owner Pontiac owned by a responsible adult that maintained it well.

The Vibe is actually a rebadged Toyota.

Was it also manufactured at Toyota’s plant?

https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/3357/pontiac-vibe-vs-toyota-matrix-six-of-one-a-half-dozen-of-the-other/

Interesting that the article leaves out a big gap. The Vibe was manufactured at a (since closed) GM/Toyota joint venture plant in California, while the Matrix was manufactured at a Toyota factory in Canada.

Despite a Toyota design, the manufacturing processes matter as much if not more to the quality of a car. While the California plant is a joint venture that adopted Toyota’s Lean Manufacturing philosophy (I have read books that focused on their philosophy, and even specifically this plant) I would still not place a manufacturing facility that had decades of poor manufacturing principles to unlearn at the same level as one that created the philosophies that the plant is trying to adopt.

I was unaware of the difference in manufacturing locations until I did a google search, but again, was very familiar with that California joint venture, as well as Lean Manufacturing (my dad has Lean certifications, asks for Lean books for Christmas, and we are both quality professionals).

FYI - I drive a 4Runner, that was manufactured in Japan, and in research I would put the select few remaining Toyota’s that are still manufactured in Japan over those manufactured elsewhere. There are cultural differences in the work place that can be positive in certain aspects that Americans will have a hard time ever trying to match.

[Kronsey]

Interesting that the article leaves out a big gap. The Vibe was manufactured at a (since closed) GM/Toyota joint venture plant in California, while the Matrix was manufactured at a Toyota factory in Canada.

Despite a Toyota design, the manufacturing processes matter as much if not more to the quality of a car. While the California plant is a joint venture that adopted Toyota’s Lean Manufacturing philosophy (I have read books that focused on their philosophy, and even specifically this plant) I would still not place a manufacturing facility that had decades of poor manufacturing principles to unlearn at the same level as one that created the philosophies that the plant is trying to adopt.

I was unaware of the difference in manufacturing locations until I did a google search, but again, was very familiar with that California joint venture, as well as Lean Manufacturing (my dad has Lean certifications, asks for Lean books for Christmas, and we are both quality professionals).

FYI - I drive a 4Runner, that was manufactured in Japan, and in research I would put the select few remaining Toyota’s that are still manufactured in Japan over those manufactured elsewhere. There are cultural differences in the work place that can be positive in certain aspects that Americans will have a hard time ever trying to match.

Thanks for sharing your interesting perspective. I was actually reading online and another engineer (guessing you are one based on your response) made a very similar response to yours.

To make sure I'm following correctly, you would be NEVER buy a Vibe based on your explanations even though it has been proven to be a reliable vehicle (especially the 1.8 engines)?

Would anything change that opinion?

[use2betrix]

Interesting that the article leaves out a big gap. The Vibe was manufactured at a (since closed) GM/Toyota joint venture plant in California, while the Matrix was manufactured at a Toyota factory in Canada.

Despite a Toyota design, the manufacturing processes matter as much if not more to the quality of a car. While the California plant is a joint venture that adopted Toyota’s Lean Manufacturing philosophy (I have read books that focused on their philosophy, and even specifically this plant) I would still not place a manufacturing facility that had decades of poor manufacturing principles to unlearn at the same level as one that created the philosophies that the plant is trying to adopt.

I was unaware of the difference in manufacturing locations until I did a google search, but again, was very familiar with that California joint venture, as well as Lean Manufacturing (my dad has Lean certifications, asks for Lean books for Christmas, and we are both quality professionals).

FYI - I drive a 4Runner, that was manufactured in Japan, and in research I would put the select few remaining Toyota’s that are still manufactured in Japan over those manufactured elsewhere. There are cultural differences in the work place that can be positive in certain aspects that Americans will have a hard time ever trying to match.

Thanks for sharing your interesting perspective. I was actually reading online and another engineer (guessing you are one based on your response) made a very similar response to yours.

To make sure I'm following correctly, you would be NEVER buy a Vibe based on your explanations even though it has been proven to be a reliable vehicle (especially the 1.8 engines)?

Would anything change that opinion?

That’s a good question, and I’m sure my previous responses would allude to that.

1. When I originally said that I’d easily pick the Toyota over the Vibe, I forgot that the Vibe is a re-badged Toyota, which IMO is still an upgrade over a lot of American model vehicles.

2. While I do think there is added value in choosing a Toyota that is manufactured at a Toyota facility over a rebadged Toyota manufactured at a GM/Toyota joint venture plant with a long history of poor quality (albeit, they did make basically industry changing improvements for the American auto industry over that period, with the help of Toyota.)


My earlier statement still stands. Everything 100% equal (miles, service history, condition, etc.) I would still choose the Toyota. However, I’d choose a very well taken care of Vibe over a Toyota with a sub par history.

[chemistk]

A few thoughts:

-Despite not being manufactured in Japan, most NUMMI vehicles are just as reliable as their Japanese counterparts, but with the benefit of a domestic nameplate dragging down their resale value. My dad drove 2 NUMMI vehicles when I was younger (a Chevy Nova and a Geo Prizm) and the mechanical components worked until the day he scrapped them (Michigan winters/rust).

-You're definitely a candidate for a single -car household. You can always rent a bigger car if/when you need it.

-What is your vehicle use-case? You don't have it clearly defined. You mention: client meetings, groceries, vacations, and dog hauling. Put some pen to paper and frame out exactly what this vehicle will be used for. How often is the whole family in the car? Will the whole family be in the car at the same time you will need to haul stuff? My concern is that it's going to be ...cramped having lost a larger SUV, a Minivan, and a Truck. I agree that your situation was clownish but you need to be sure you really won't be missing the space, even with the previous point considered.

-Don't look at driving an older car as a negative in your business unless you have tangible evidence that it will negatively affect your reputation. If you're appropriately dressed, clean, and confident, you should be confident in driving even an Amish buggy to your meetings!

-Finally - just because locally there aren't many options for Hybrids and Electric vehicles doesn't mean anything. The cost to ship a car is nominal in some cases and you'll be able to get a long long life out of a Hybrid. And if you're just repulsed by them - be honest about it!

[FLAFI]

Not sure what you mean by transaction costs (unless you meant financing costs). In my state, I can apply the sales price of my vehicles being sold toward the sales tax owed on the new vehicle purchased. So if we went with the Vibe or Corolla, it would be completely free of transaction costs if completed within 30 days (van would be a net wash). If the CRV, it would be pretty minimal. Still something to consider, I do agree.

That's great that you do not take a significant sales tax hit. Also, some states cost significantly less than others with new vehicle registrations. While not technically a transaction cost, a new CRV takes an immediate depreciation hit. Great vehicle. I really like my neighbor's CRV. We tend to buy fuel efficient vehicles new with cash or zero percent and hold them for a long time, so I'm being a little hypocritical, but buying used is the way to go from a $$ standpoint. If I was early in my FI journey, I'd use the Pilot sparingly and get a used Toyota compact. If the Pilot goes, which may not happen for many years, you have the compact car. We had a Honda that lasted 14 year before we traded it. Frankly, we could have kept it longer but got tired of driving it.           

[Kronsey]

-What is your vehicle use-case? You don't have it clearly defined. You mention: client meetings, groceries, vacations, and dog hauling. Put some pen to paper and frame out exactly what this vehicle will be used for. How often is the whole family in the car? Will the whole family be in the car at the same time you will need to haul stuff? My concern is that it's going to be ...cramped having lost a larger SUV, a Minivan, and a Truck. I agree that your situation was clownish but you need to be sure you really won't be missing the space, even with the previous point considered.

You've highlighted my wife's main (and very valid) concerns. We are both trying to get off the clown car treadmill, but we don't want to go so small that it feels cramped and we regret downsizing and are back to purchasing something else again.

Below is an estimate of our driving for a year - 10,000 miles (I think we can do better, but trying not to go too extreme as my wife is used to driving 18,000 miles per year on average since owning the van):

-Trips to church (all four riding together, no dog): 44 miles per week, 2,228 miles per year

-One month long vacation to the beach each year (all four riding together, decent amount of cargo to get us there, haven't taken dog in past): 1,430 miles per year (this does not include mileage driven while down there, just there and back)

-Random city driving done weekly (usually either my wife or myself alone): 2,000 miles per year (estimate that I think will be high, but not if you look at past driving habits). These trips include all of your random stuff done - trips to gym daily, grocery store weekly, post office to mail things for me, check my PO Box, eat lunch with clients, etc.

-Trips to parent's lake house (all four riding together, dog comes, moderate amount of stuff to spend the night usually) : 240 mile round trip, 2,880 miles per year.  We probably go once a month on average, less in winter and more during fishing season.

-Buffer of 1,462 miles a year - Trips to see my wife's family (about 30 miles each way), trips to go over to friends' homes, etc. - Most of these trips would be all four riding together, no cargo, no dog.

If you add up the above, it looks like it comes out to about 70% of the time all four of us riding together, 25% solo (just wife or me), and 5% one parent w/ kids. Overall dog riding probably less than 10% of all driving. Cargo room mainly necessary for vacation and trips to the lake.

The above scenarios are why we were leaning towards a CRV. Plenty of cargo room, yet still pretty fuel efficient. Not so roomy that it is like a luxury hotel though. Other main plus is that my wife really likes them (more so than something smaller). I think a Vibe or Prius would be doable because of the hatchbacks for extra cargo room, but we really wouldn't be able to fit the dog in on those trips as well as cargo.

-Don't look at driving an older car as a negative in your business unless you have tangible evidence that it will negatively affect your reputation. If you're appropriately dressed, clean, and confident, you should be confident in driving even an Amish buggy to your meetings!

I agree with the above. Thanks for pointing that out!

-Finally - just because locally there aren't many options for Hybrids and Electric vehicles doesn't mean anything. The cost to ship a car is nominal in some cases and you'll be able to get a long long life out of a Hybrid. And if you're just repulsed by them - be honest about it!

Agreed, but then I would be purchasing a car site unseen and hoping/praying that it was as advertised. My understanding is that Carfax reports are a decent starting point, but many things can be left off or excluded for various reasons.

I love hybrids. A low mileage Prius Prime would be my top choice. We have test drove a couple different options and really liked them. But the price point for one of those with low miles would basically be the same (or higher) compared to a CRV. If I averaged 55 MPGs in the Prius vs 32 MPGs in the CRV, I'm only looking at an extra $300 or so per year in fuel at current, local gas prices. Roughly $30/month isn't going to derail our FI plans. Obviously I know that the price of driving could change pretty quickly, but we have enough "fun" in the driving that we could comfortably cut the driving in half and not miss a beat.

[Kronsey]

That's great that you do not take a significant sales tax hit. Also, some states cost significantly less than others with new vehicle registrations. While not technically a transaction cost, a new CRV takes an immediate depreciation hit. Great vehicle. I really like my neighbor's CRV. We tend to buy fuel efficient vehicles new with cash or zero percent and hold them for a long time, so I'm being a little hypocritical, but buying used is the way to go from a $$ standpoint. If I was early in my FI journey, I'd use the Pilot sparingly and get a used Toyota compact. If the Pilot goes, which may not happen for many years, you have the compact car. We had a Honda that lasted 14 year before we traded it. Frankly, we could have kept it longer but got tired of driving it.         

@FLAFI - Thanks for your insight. I agree with most of what you said. I think we are leaning towards a CRV after all the comments and more discussion. I also agree about the new car depreciation hit. I'd never buy a brand new vehicle (did that once, never again). If we go the CRV route, it will probably be a model year 2015 or 2016 (we like those body styles better than the newest one) with under 20,000 miles. Then we don't take the depreciation hit mentioned, but still have a vehicle that should easily last 15-20 years if we take care of it and drive it 10,000 or so miles a year. If it lasts us that long, we will be well into FI and our boys will be grown and living their own life. It will have served its purpose completely!

[2sk22]

I have a Prius v ( the wagon variant) and l can recommend it highly. Very economical and can carry a lot of stuff. I've had it since 2011 and it's been very reliable

[the_fixer]

1 car and use Uber / lift here and there if needed. If you need an extra car for a full day week rent one.

You will be money ahead compared to buying a 2nd car

CRV or something reasonable in size would not be out of line you are dropping down to one car and it sounds like you actually load it up with the kids / trips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[use2betrix]

How big is a dog? A Great Dane needs more room than a Chihuahua

[Kronsey]

I have a Prius v ( the wagon variant) and l can recommend it highly. Very economical and can carry a lot of stuff. I've had it since 2011 and it's been very reliable

I haven't looked much at the Prius V, though I am familiar with them. I will do some comparisons between the Prius V and the CRV.

[Kronsey]

How big is a dog? A Great Dane needs more room than a Chihuahua

A lab - she is small, probably at or under 40 lbs. She would fit just fine in the back of a CRV.

[AccidentialMustache]

If the honda fit isn't on your list it needs to be. Its the same length as the crv, but less suv = better mileage. Also, if you're considering 1-car, the fold-flat magic seat and front seat which folds back "flat" on top of that is gold. 8' christmas tree (which was 6' across before being wrapped)? Yeah, I stuffed that in my fit. Yes I said in -- not strapped on top. With 2 adults still in the car (though the non-driver had no belt... nor really a seat -- they were folded flat, as was the front passenger). I've stuffed a couple treadmills in it, I think we shoved the shredder/chipper in it, can fit normal bikes without pulling wheels off (but not my cargo bike).

You could fit a 40 lb lab in the back of the fit, plus all your humans, although you wouldn't have much (any) room for luggage/stuff, other than between the kids on the back seat. Might be a case of "you need a roof rack" for long trips?

Sent from a 1-car, 2 adult/1 kid/no pets household. We've done it for 10 years. I think we could do it with 2 kids. It'd be tougher since we both work and that makes shuttle duties potentially harder.

[kimmarg]

I just bought at 2016 CRV-LX (base trim) with 25k miles for $18,000. We're averaging 30-32mpg which is better than I thought. We are also a family of 4 although still 2 in carseats and it seems about right for space for us. You can load it up (even add trailer and roof) if you need to for a road trip but it's not too clownish to drive to work. I vaccummed it and felt comfortable taking the regional manager to lunch in it today. Interestingly the mileage is the same or better than the Suzuki SX4 it was replacing and there's waay more space.

[Kronsey]

If the honda fit isn't on your list it needs to be. Its the same length as the crv, but less suv = better mileage. Also, if you're considering 1-car, the fold-flat magic seat and front seat which folds back "flat" on top of that is gold. 8' christmas tree (which was 6' across before being wrapped)? Yeah, I stuffed that in my fit. Yes I said in -- not strapped on top. With 2 adults still in the car (though the non-driver had no belt... nor really a seat -- they were folded flat, as was the front passenger). I've stuffed a couple treadmills in it, I think we shoved the shredder/chipper in it, can fit normal bikes without pulling wheels off (but not my cargo bike).

You could fit a 40 lb lab in the back of the fit, plus all your humans, although you wouldn't have much (any) room for luggage/stuff, other than between the kids on the back seat. Might be a case of "you need a roof rack" for long trips?

Sent from a 1-car, 2 adult/1 kid/no pets household. We've done it for 10 years. I think we could do it with 2 kids. It'd be tougher since we both work and that makes shuttle duties potentially harder.

Wife thinks a Fit is too small for an only car and I agree with her. If we were going to go with two cars, a Fit would be a great option.

Basically what you described in your travel scenario is why the Fit is off the table. Also the Fit isn't all that much more fuel efficient than a CRV according to fuelly and other similar sites where owners report real world MPG.

Honda Fits are vastly underpriced on the used car market. I really like them, just not the best option for us.

[Kronsey]

I just bought at 2016 CRV-LX (base trim) with 25k miles for $18,000. We're averaging 30-32mpg which is better than I thought. We are also a family of 4 although still 2 in carseats and it seems about right for space for us. You can load it up (even add trailer and roof) if you need to for a road trip but it's not too clownish to drive to work. I vaccummed it and felt comfortable taking the regional manager to lunch in it today. Interestingly the mileage is the same or better than the Suzuki SX4 it was replacing and there's waay more space.

Sounds like you purchased almost exactly what we are looking for. I personally like the SE model better and the pricing doesn't seem to be much different for a small step up in features.

Is your LX AWD? I don't want to pay extra for AWD as it hardly ever snows or ices here. Maybe once or twice per winter. When that happens, we just stay home as we have no outside W-2 jobs to go to.

You basically hit the nail on the head for why we are strongly leaning towards the CRV. Outside of a hybrid, EV, or a much smaller compact car, the CRV gets as good or close MPGs as everything else we we're considering. An older Corolla, Camry, or Vibe might actually get worse MPG than the CRV.

Are you happy with your CRV purchase? Anything you'd change or do differently?

[chemistk]

Just an observation, you seem to have found what you're looking for!

I think at this point, comparing the CRV to any other similarly sized vehicles is splitting hairs. I bet if you were to finally sell everything else off and find a CRV that you like, you (and your wife) would be pretty content with yourselves.

[roomtempmayo]

Is your Honda Pilot paid off? It's a sub-optimal vehicle in terms of MPG but with two growing children and not a lot of driving it may be good choice unless you're going to take a significant deprecation hit holding on to the vehicle. There will be transaction costs associated with acquiring a new (used) vehicle which may not be offset by improved mileage, particularly with the CRV option.

My thought as well.  If the OP can get his annual mileage down below 10,000, the Pilot probably has another five years in it at least.

I'd be surprised that it's cheaper to sell the Pilot and buy at 2016 crossover of any sort on a monthly cost of ownership basis over any timeline.

If the goal is to drive down the cost of transportation as far as possible, keeping the Pilot seems like a clear winner to me, unless there's something about it we don't know. 

Buying a newish crossover seems like an expensive consolation prize for doing some downsizing, not a method of budget optimization.

[the_fixer]

When moving to one vehicle reliability was a concern for us and we wanted something that we knew was rock solid so I can see not wanting to rely on something with 200k+ miles as your only vehicle.


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[Kronsey]

When moving to one vehicle reliability was a concern for us and we wanted something that we knew was rock solid so I can see not wanting to rely on something with 200k+ miles as your only vehicle.


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This is our MAIN concern with keeping the Pilot. The better MPGs would be a bonus, but it is more of a stranded/reliability issue. That causes fear/anxiety for my wife especially.

[Kronsey]

Is your Honda Pilot paid off? It's a sub-optimal vehicle in terms of MPG but with two growing children and not a lot of driving it may be good choice unless you're going to take a significant deprecation hit holding on to the vehicle. There will be transaction costs associated with acquiring a new (used) vehicle which may not be offset by improved mileage, particularly with the CRV option.

My thought as well.  If the OP can get his annual mileage down below 10,000, the Pilot probably has another five years in it at least.

I'd be surprised that it's cheaper to sell the Pilot and buy at 2016 crossover of any sort on a monthly cost of ownership basis over any timeline.

If the goal is to drive down the cost of transportation as far as possible, keeping the Pilot seems like a clear winner to me, unless there's something about it we don't know. 

Buying a newish crossover seems like an expensive consolation prize for doing some downsizing, not a method of budget optimization.

@caleb & @FLAFI - I've tried putting pencil to paper to find the most optimal option. Feel free to help me out if you see something missing. I'm going to provide real world examples and estimates based on a few CRVs we are considering below, but also consider that having a rock solid vehicle for the next 10+ years provides peace of mind for my wife so if the numbers are close we'll probably proceed with going the CRV route (detailing the Pilot today to get her ready for Craigslist and Facebook :)

Pilot current value (what I actually think I will get in cash) = $6,000
Cost of 2016 CRV SE with 25,000 miles (all in price) = $18,000
Net cash flow loss = ($12,000)

Timeline of test = 5 years. We'll assume no major repairs on either outside of oil changes, etc., but for the Pilot let's budget in an extra $500/year in maintenance. I think that would be a safe assumption. Could be high or low, but we gotta start somewhere. So I'm down $12,000, but adding back $2,500 in anticipated maintenance costs - Net loss of ($9,500)

Let's assume the 10,000 miles/year for 5 years = 50,000 miles driven total
Pilot = 18 MPG combined = 2,778 gallons at an est avg of $2.50 per gallon (currently $2.20 gal locally) = $6,944 in gas
CRV = 31 MPG combined = 1,613 gallons at $2.50/gallon = $4,033 in gas
Now my net loss is down to ($6,589)

But let's then look and see what the values of the cars will be in five years. We have no way of knowing exactly, but I think a decent way of looking at it would be to find the private party value of those cars today, but five model years older with 50,000 more miles.

According to KBB private party value, a 2004 Pilot with all my same options with 262,000 miles is worth $3,300. I don't know if you have ever tried to sell a car with that many miles (I have), but your market is pretty much nil. I'd be surprised if I could get $3,000 for it.

According to KBB private party value, a 2011 CRV with all the same options with 75,000 miles is worth $10,700. Finding a low mileage, well taken care of CRV is next to impossible (I've been looking for months). For the ones that do exist, the owner wants as much or more than a dealer would. I have no problem believing I could get $10,500 for it.

So a net gain of $7,500 for the CRV. At this point it looks like the CRV is up by almost $1K.

The one thing we left out was time value of money and/or interest expense if getting a loan. I'd pay off the CRV after selling the Pilot if I don't sell it beforehand, but I'll grant you a fully financed CRV at 4% interest over five years. That comes out to $331 per month. Let's instead assume I keep the Pilot, and invest the $331/month for five years at 2.5% high yield savings account.

At the end of the 5 years, I have roughly $20,900 available + the $3,000 for the sale of the Pilot for a total of $23,900 to use on another vehicles. At that point, I'd guess I'd be able to purchase in future dollars about the same version CRV that I can purchase today. Maybe something slightly better, but it isn't like Id be going from a CRV to a Tesla.

The other main thing, though, is that at the end of the five years of purchasing the CRV right now I still have an incredibly reliable, efficient vehicle that should last another decade. Plus I've received 5 years of low maintenance ownership while not having to worry about breaking down while going about our daily lives.

[roomtempmayo]

Good work thinking it through, but there might be a few additional points to consider.

A 2016 CRV w/25,000 miles in VG condition has a KBB private party value of 17,805 in my zip code.  Your calculations assume you can buy for $1,805 less, which seems to cut against the idea that you'll easily be able to get dealer price for it if/when you turn around and sell it.  For reference, typical dealer listing price according to KBB for a 2016 CV with your characteristics is $19,130.  A big part of the reason the CRV comes out ahead in your calculations is that you're making very different assumptions for buying than selling, i.e. that you'll be able to buy well under market price and sell well above it.

If you buy the CRV with a loan, you'll need full coverage insurance.  With the Pilot, you can carry liability-only.  Difference in insurance costs could easily be $1000/year.  You may want to get an insurance quote for the CRV prior to buying to compare how much more you'd be paying to insure it than the Pilot.

Cost of license also varies in most states with the value of the vehicle, but that's a much smaller amount, maybe a hundred bucks a year.

Using all of your calculations but assuming private party book price for the CRV and the insurance/license differentials, I think you're ahead by thousands keeping the Pilot.

However, I understand if the deal with your wife is that you're jettisoning a bunch of old vehicles for a newer, more reliable vehicle and there are some intangibles at work.

[Kronsey]

Good work thinking it through, but there might be a few additional points to consider.

A 2016 CRV w/25,000 miles in VG condition has a KBB private party value of 17,805 in my zip code.  Your calculations assume you can buy for $1,805 less, which seems to cut against the idea that you'll easily be able to get dealer price for it if/when you turn around and sell it.  For reference, typical dealer listing price according to KBB for a 2016 CV with your characteristics is $19,130.  A big part of the reason the CRV comes out ahead in your calculations is that you're making very different assumptions for buying than selling, i.e. that you'll be able to buy well under market price and sell well above it.

I don't think I'm being too liberal in my assumptions. If you think I am lying, I will PM you the CRV that I will end up purchasing if not sold by next week (we have a family event to go to all weekend at the lake). My calculations were based on $18,000, which is very close to your $17,805. I'm not sure where you got the $1,805 less, re-read my post one above yours. My premise was an all in cost of buying the CRV at $18,000.

If you buy the CRV with a loan, you'll need full coverage insurance.  With the Pilot, you can carry liability-only.  Difference in insurance costs could easily be $1000/year.  You may want to get an insurance quote for the CRV prior to buying to compare how much more you'd be paying to insure it than the Pilot.

I did mention that I will be paying off the CRV shortly after selling the Pilot, but I would still carry full coverage regardless on an $18,000 vehicle. My Pilot costs me $44/month for liability only. I was quoted $82/month for full coverage on the CRV. Again, though, I would be glad to pay the $82/month regardless because I think that is a good value to cover any potential losses if an accident were to happen. So about $450/difference per year.

Cost of license also varies in most states with the value of the vehicle, but that's a much smaller amount, maybe a hundred bucks a year.

In my state, your biggest upfront cost is the sales tax paid upon purchase. Somewhere up thread I mentioned that I can apply the sales prices of vehicles sold against the CRV. So it will cost very little if anything assuming I can get them sold in 60 days of purchasing. The ongoing costs of the registration/plate renewal is based on the HP of the engine of your car. The CRV and Pilot would cost exactly the same.


I appreciate you chiming in and challenging the assumptions. I really don't want to dump the Pilot for the CRV while making excuses in my own head that aren't reality. I'm just trying to point out that after looking at the math a thousand ways and trying to consider everything, I really don't think it is clear which would be more or less expensive at this point. Because the financials are so close, I think it would only make sense to move forward with the preferred vehicle.

Thanks for your insight, @caleb

[roomtempmayo]

@Kronsey I'm not sure where I got the $16,200 figure for a purchase on the CRV.  I must have been looking at something else.  I didn't mean to misconstrue your assumptions or imply you were lying. 

There are worse financial decisions than buying a used CRV, and it looks like it's not going to be massively more expensive than keeping your Pilot.

[ltt]

I'm surprised noone has mentioned winter driving as was mentioned you live in the midwest.  None of those cars mentioned first (Corolla, Prius, etc.) are good in snow.  We have several Toyotas, but the Corollas are just too light on snow and ice.  And maybe you don't worry about it since you work from home and your wife is a SAHM.  Am very surprised you got rid of a mini-van having two kids.  We have used our van so much with the kids and hauling things.

Definitely something more durable for winter months. 

[Kronsey]

I'm surprised noone has mentioned winter driving as was mentioned you live in the midwest.  None of those cars mentioned first (Corolla, Prius, etc.) are good in snow.  We have several Toyotas, but the Corollas are just too light on snow and ice.  And maybe you don't worry about it since you work from home and your wife is a SAHM.  Am very surprised you got rid of a mini-van having two kids.  We have used our van so much with the kids and hauling things.

Definitely something more durable for winter months.

Thanks for your POV, @ltt

To answer your points:

It might snow and/or ice once or twice a year. A couple years here lately none at all. Basically you summed it up with the "you don't worry about it since you work from home..." That is exactly right. It doesn't snow/ice enough to worry about it, and even if it did we can just stay home and leave the vehicle in the garage. I guess you could say we live on the border of the Midwest and the South (if such a thing exists :)

It was tough getting rid of the van, but we just didn't use all of it's features that much. When we purchased the van, we thought we may have another kid or two. For various medical and personal reasons, that didn't and isn't going to happen. The main benefit for us was the sliding doors which meant no chance of door dings caused by our kids. The oldest has learned not to do that and the youngest is still in a booster seat and waits for us to assist him in getting out (he doesn't open the door by himself). The van will be missed, but there is nothing the van provided that we can't live without. It was ultimately just too big for our needs.

Also - sort of alluded to it in a post above, but we have family close who all like to keep multiple cars for some reason. My in laws and grandparents in law each have 3 vehicles for two person households. Also as mentioned, I'm part owner in a 16 foot utility trailer. So if I ever need to haul anything, I simply use our trailer and one of their trucks and it only costs me a full tank of gas. That is a blessing and makes it even easier for us to go to one vehicle. Our families aren't frugal in the slightest sense, and that sometimes comes in handy :)

[HBFIRE]

FYI - I drive a 4Runner, that was manufactured in Japan, and in research I would put the select few remaining Toyota’s that are still manufactured in Japan over those manufactured elsewhere. There are cultural differences in the work place that can be positive in certain aspects that Americans will have a hard time ever trying to match.

I have a very unmustachian GX460 for some of the same reasons.  Always wanted a land cruiser but this was a nice alternative for less $ (land cruiser Prado)

[Just Joe]

We drove a 1st gen CRV all through our kids' childhoods. Our first child came home from the hospital in it and later drove it after they got their license. Its twenty years old now. We all still fit in it.

Consider how long you plan on keeping whatever you buy. Maybe you'll all fit in a compact car now but when your kids start growing it'll feel pretty cramped in a Vibe or Fit.

A small crossover may be a better long term family car unless you go small now and then trade up in size later.

Alternative POV - buy another minivan. A friend brags on used white Chrysler minivans, he has owned a few. Low purchase price. Good reliability. Comfortable. Fair MPG. Boring as can be but hugely useful. You've said your annual miles are small so the cost of fuel will be low whatever you drive. Cost difference between 25 MPG and 35 MPG isn't that much. Keep it detailed (clean) and you can carry business associates in it too.

We do the cheap car/nice car plan. One vehicle is old, reliable, very high mileage, and no resale value. It is still clean, presentable and safe. Doesn't matter how much it gets used or how much it sits around. Insurance is cheap. Fuel economy is fair. Parts are cheap. It seldom leaves the county so if it did break down (once in twenty years) a flatbed ride home so I can repair it isn't a bank breaker.

The other car is a used clown car that we bought for a nice price. It is nicer than a new crossover but was cheaper. The idea is to use that one less than the cheap car. Wear out the cheap car. We vacation with the clown car. We visit the grandparents with the clown car. We take weekend trips with the clown car. It is utterly reliable and quite comfortable.

When DW and I need to occasionally need to be in two different places at the same time, out comes the clown car for second car duty. We made one car work for a long time but occasionally it was complicated. The cost of having the cheap car is really small - tags and liability insurance. The car itself has been very reliable.

We also have a pair of electric bikes. Might not be your thing but its great. Easy way to go ten miles in any direction and home again. I could go further, pedal harder, etc but a ten mile radius contains everything I normally need to reach including work. The bike is probably capable of a 40 mile range. I never ride it to empty.

[Kronsey]

A bit of a quick update:

After more searching, test driving, and thinking, we decided we would move forward with a small(er) sedan instead of a CRV. I would have loved a Vibe or Matrix, but I couldn't find one that wasn't beat to heck or they wanted an arm and a leg. We decided to hold off on a CRV for a few years until our kids keep growing and we need the extra space.

I purchased a one owner, garage kept Toyota Corolla yesterday. $7,200 cash. It's a 2007 with only 23,500 miles. Never been so excited to drive such a bland car. Haha. Should make a good first car for our son(s) in a decade or so.

I got 41 MPGs on the 2 hour drive home after purchasing.

Will be cleaning up and listing the Pilot and the Truck this weekend.

This should really accelerate our FIRE plans. Cheaper gas, insurance, maintenance, etc. I'm hoping my long term cost of ownership is around $.20/mile which would be spectacular.

Thanks for all the suggestions and feedback!

[mm1970]

A bit of a quick update:

After more searching, test driving, and thinking, we decided we would move forward with a small(er) sedan instead of a CRV. I would have loved a Vibe or Matrix, but I couldn't find one that wasn't beat to heck or they wanted an arm and a leg. We decided to hold off on a CRV for a few years until our kids keep growing and we need the extra space.

I purchased a one owner, garage kept Toyota Corolla yesterday. $7,200 cash. It's a 2007 with only 23,500 miles. Never been so excited to drive such a bland car. Haha. Should make a good first car for our son(s) in a decade or so.

I got 41 MPGs on the 2 hour drive home after purchasing.

Will be cleaning up and listing the Pilot and the Truck this weekend.

This should really accelerate our FIRE plans. Cheaper gas, insurance, maintenance, etc. I'm hoping my long term cost of ownership is around $.20/mile which would be spectacular.

Thanks for all the suggestions and feedback!

Nice update

(I was on vacation when this whole thread happened.  Our cars for our family of 4 are: a 2006 Toyota Matrix and a 2009 Honda Civic.  Before that we had a Chevy Prizm - aka a rebranded Corolla.  Bland cars for the win!)

[Kronsey]

Nice update

(I was on vacation when this whole thread happened.  Our cars for our family of 4 are: a 2006 Toyota Matrix and a 2009 Honda Civic.  Before that we had a Chevy Prizm - aka a rebranded Corolla.  Bland cars for the win!)

Thanks!

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced most families with 4 members or less could all get by just fine in a "small sedan". I'm 6'3" and around 250 lbs. I wanted to test out rear leg room in the Corolla, so I had my wife get in the driver's seat and adjust to her liking. I then got in the driver's side rear seat and had plenty of leg room.

I will admit it isn't the world's most comfortable ride, but 95%+ of our driving is 30 miles or less each way. Most people just want to justify their $500+/month SUV payment. Funny thing is SUVs and most mini vans didn't even exist 25+ years ago, and families got by just fine in typical sedans. Oh well. As long as smaller cars are seen as undesirable, we should all benefit from being able to purchase low mileage, well taken care of cars for a fraction of what an SUV, van, or truck costs.

[norajean]

You definitely need only one car and an Uber account. Nobody should be buying anything but electric at this point. Leaf, eGolf, whatever.  Rent for vacations.

[AccidentialMustache]

And you said you wouldn't have fit in the fit!

To be fair the fit probably has less with the seats up and more (usable) with the seats down because of the fold-flat magic seat. This all based purely off estimation of what I can cram in it vs what I crammed in mom's prism when I was in college.

Still, nice find on that low of mileage!

[Kronsey]

And you said you wouldn't have fit in the fit!

To be fair the fit probably has less with the seats up and more (usable) with the seats down because of the fold-flat magic seat. This all based purely off estimation of what I can cram in it vs what I crammed in mom's prism when I was in college.

Still, nice find on that low of mileage!

I test drove a few Fits. The older model years had considerably less rear leg room. The newer ones were better on rear leg room, but I had trouble finding one that was sub $8,000 without high(er) miles.

To me, the Fit should be getting way better MPGs than it does. Based on Fuelly data, the older Fits get worse MPGs than the Corolla we purchased.

Less room and worse MPGs made it a no go for us.

Glad you love yours though!

[Kronsey]

You definitely need only one car and an Uber account. Nobody should be buying anything but electric at this point. Leaf, eGolf, whatever.  Rent for vacations.

You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but either you didn't read our vehicle usage or you're suggesting we buy a much newer (and therefore much higher priced) electric vehicle.

I spent a lot of time looking at Leafs. I also considered the Prius Prime (too expensive IMHO), Volt (bad rear leg room as kids grow), Bolt (too expensive) and a few others.

I really like Leafs, but most of what I found in the sub $10k price range had considerably lower ranges due to age and poorer battery tech from the earlier models.

We go to my parent's lake house frequently each year. That drive would be out of range for anything but a Tesla at this point. We also typically take a month long vacation to the beach in November. Using Uber or rentals for those situations would have become cost prohibitive very quickly.

I'm all for electric vehicles and believe the range issue and price will be solved by the time we need another vehicle, but ultimately it is about your lifetime cost per mile to operate the vehicle. I've crunched the numbers every possible way and we definitely don't come out ahead by purchasing an electric at this point in our lives.

[Kronsey]

Here is a picture of the Corolla :)

[lutorm]

Have you considered wagons? I think in general they are more utilitarian than these "crossovers" that Americans seem to like so much. Unfortunately there aren't many even available in the US market anymore, but there are used Volvos and maybe old Outbacks (the new ones are basically SUVs anyway).

We've had a Prius as our only car for the past 6 years. It really is a great and very versatile vehicle where you can either fit 4 people pretty comfortably, or if you fold the seats down, an impressive amount of cargo. I regularly haul 8' lumber in it diagonally across the front passenger seat onto the glare shield. If you have 4 people traveling, though, the cargo space starts getting short.

Once we got a kid and had to fit a child seat, the utility started dropping. It fits no problem, but you can't fold the seats down with it, so now every time you need more than the basic cargo space you also have to pull out the car seat, put it somewhere, and put it back when you're done. You can still fit 4 (reasonably sized) people PLUS the child seat, but you're not going to be going anywhere far. And the stroller takes up the majority of the cargo space so you're not bringing a lot of stuff either. You don't have to deal with child seats any more, but I also think it would be hard having a dog with 4 people in a Prius.

When the second child comes along we have pretty much resigned ourselves to getting a larger vehicle. I would have a very hard time going back to a non-hybrid and getting 20 mpg just on pure principle, and I'm not impressed by the value proposition offered by any of these crossovers. It would either be a wagon or a minivan. The utility of a minivan with the ability to haul 4x8 sheets from the home improvement store or have 2 child seats and still be able to have 4 adults (the grandparents visit quite often) seems awesome. The Chrysler Pacifica plug-in hybrid looks very attractive. It gets 30mpg without ever charging it, but we would be able to do the vast majority of our driving on full electric charged by our PV. The drawback is that it's expensive. I will feel less clown-carish knowing I basically don't burn any gas, at least...

Also, I'm amused by this American impression that you need a truck to be able to tow a trailer. In Sweden no one has trucks but everyone tows trailers, campers, or even boats perfectly fine with their normal sedans and wagons.

[mm1970]

Nice update

(I was on vacation when this whole thread happened.  Our cars for our family of 4 are: a 2006 Toyota Matrix and a 2009 Honda Civic.  Before that we had a Chevy Prizm - aka a rebranded Corolla.  Bland cars for the win!)

Thanks!

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced most families with 4 members or less could all get by just fine in a "small sedan". I'm 6'3" and around 250 lbs. I wanted to test out rear leg room in the Corolla, so I had my wife get in the driver's seat and adjust to her liking. I then got in the driver's side rear seat and had plenty of leg room.

I will admit it isn't the world's most comfortable ride, but 95%+ of our driving is 30 miles or less each way. Most people just want to justify their $500+/month SUV payment. Funny thing is SUVs and most mini vans didn't even exist 25+ years ago, and families got by just fine in typical sedans. Oh well. As long as smaller cars are seen as undesirable, we should all benefit from being able to purchase low mileage, well taken care of cars for a fraction of what an SUV, van, or truck costs.

For the first time ever, on our most recent road trip vacation, we rented an SUV instead of driving our Matrix.  Our kids hate road trips, and I admit it sucks even for me (I'm 5'2.5") to sit in the front for a long time.  The car is usually pretty packed, my teenager gets car sick, and they just don't like it.

In the end, our rental (small SUV like a Santa Fe) was not available, and the only vehicle they could give us was a Yukon.  Well, I must say it was pretty glorious for a road trip!  The Santa Fe would have been fine, but the bucket seats and inability of my boys to touch each other was worth the extra gas for the week.