Author Topic: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation  (Read 4060 times)

alohaKane

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Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« on: January 18, 2019, 07:49:59 AM »
I work for the feds and have a small family of three with a soon to be 3 year old. I've decided to take a job in Phoenix AZ that would cut my salary by 7k ($63k). Not only its a stressful move, I think we got too excited about the idea watching youtube videos about AZ living when the opportunity came up and had very little time to really think it through.

We're both turning 33 this year and we plan to have more kids in the future. We jumped on this idea of moving to Phoenix to move away from the winter of northeast (Jersey) and ideally to the low-cost of living. Last year I hit 100k in my NW after maxing out my 401k for the very first time (thanks to you guys) and have really grown to understanding our finances. So in my head this savings could definitely give us some cushion in this very near transition.

Moving to AZ is literally starting from scratch. We don't know anyone - no relative, friends or acquaintances. Her family is NJ which barely helps in terms of caring for our son so the argument of being by ourselves in that sense is nothing new. Her Dad is really the only thing we will all miss in which I honestly feel guilty about. My son is his one and only grandson. My family is in Honolulu so moving to AZ will place us literally dead smack in the middle (5-6 hr flight) from either of our family.

I do receive some benefits from the VA (about $21k per annum) that really helps us get out of poverty level. Plus, I really wanted to start my RE investment especially in a market where i can afford.

Are we making the right call here? We both want more kids, a home, and hopefully buy some of my time with RE investments so I can spend it with my kids. Plus, I could set up where we live within 10 to 15 minutes bike ride from where I will be working in Central Phoenix (at least not on 100 degree days).

Your mustachian input is needed badly.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:27:33 AM by alohaKane »

Freedomin5

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Re: Help me justify this $7000k paycut and relocation
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2019, 08:06:03 AM »
When I first read your title, I thought you were taking a $7 million pay cut $7000 K = 7 million. I was ready to tell you you were crazy and to just work 2 months and then retire.

On a more serious note, it’s ok to take a pay cut if the benefits make up for it, that is if you can save more than $7k in expenses. Ultimately, it’s not the salary that is important, it’s the savings amount. So, for example, if taxes are lower in AZ, and rent is cheaper, and you can do away with the car, and you don’t need to take your $10k annual vacation because your lifestyle in AZ is less stressful, then your savings rate may actually go up even though your gross salary is $7k lower.

partdopy

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2019, 09:39:39 AM »
This is probably your last chance to move without uprooting your kids life as well.

For a 10% pay cut I'd move, it isn't likely to make a huge impact financially as Arizona is fairly cheap COL wise, and you'll probably get a small decrease in income tax to partially offset it.

On a side note, if you really need people on a forum to justify this, perhaps you should take some time and think about it as you don't sound very sure.  We won't be there to help in the event you guys hate Arizona.

Blueberries

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2019, 09:57:58 AM »
There isn't enough information to really give a solid financial answer.  There are websites that will give you a cost of living comparison on cities.  I would do that before moving, at the very, very least, so you're sure the salary difference is feasible.  Also, checking out houses online to ensure your expectations match reality is smart, too.  And, schools will be important so at least look at the school ratings based on the houses in your price range.  The ratings are not everything, but again, it gives you a good idea of what you can expect.

On the emotional side, I say do it.  If you end up hating it, you can always move.

Noodle

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2019, 10:01:29 AM »
It sounds like you're getting nervous because you don't have enough information to know whether the move will work out or not...and that's OK. I will be honest, my reaction is "Why not give it a try and have an adventure together as a family?" Just hold off buying a home until you've had a chance to figure out whether you want to stay long-term. The worst thing that happens is that you decide Arizona isn't for you, and you have to find another job somewhere else...and you already did that once. Maybe you'll love Arizona, maybe you'll hate it, or maybe you'll find some things to appreciate but decide it's not your forever home--but you'll get some stories to tell for the rest of your life.

I fully admit that my perspective is shaped by working with a group of older people many of whom moved quite a few times in their lives (as have I, actually)--some military, some corporate. They all seem to look back on their memories very fondly although I'm sure at the time it was incredibly stressful. It's sort of an odd thing that people are moving around less than they used to, at the same time that the Internet makes it so much easier to stay connected to places far away.

alohaKane

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2019, 10:07:45 AM »
7k - fixed LOL

This. The thought was there but wasn't clear as this. Just thinking about the move is a bit overwhelming and daunting at the same time. There are a lot of upfront cost, needing a commuter car (for the moment) + down payment for (buying/renting) new place, but I'm hopeful that in the long run this move will improve our well-being and savings at the same time.

I think that's whats frightening about the idea - not knowing where the future will lead us. I mean, worst case scenario, we go back to NJ and take the judgement from her family. Doesn't phase me at all.

thanks for your input!

wageslave23

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2019, 10:16:13 AM »
It sounds like you're getting nervous because you don't have enough information to know whether the move will work out or not...and that's OK. I will be honest, my reaction is "Why not give it a try and have an adventure together as a family?" Just hold off buying a home until you've had a chance to figure out whether you want to stay long-term. The worst thing that happens is that you decide Arizona isn't for you, and you have to find another job somewhere else...and you already did that once. Maybe you'll love Arizona, maybe you'll hate it, or maybe you'll find some things to appreciate but decide it's not your forever home--but you'll get some stories to tell for the rest of your life.

I fully admit that my perspective is shaped by working with a group of older people many of whom moved quite a few times in their lives (as have I, actually)--some military, some corporate. They all seem to look back on their memories very fondly although I'm sure at the time it was incredibly stressful. It's sort of an odd thing that people are moving around less than they used to, at the same time that the Internet makes it so much easier to stay connected to places far away.

What makes you think people are moving around less than they used to?  Anecdotally, my grandparents' and parents' friends all seemed to stick around after high school.  Most of my friends from hs live in various states across the country.  I think its much easier to find jobs out of state now with internet job listings.  Plus like you said, its very easy to stay connected with the internet and cheap flights.

hernandz

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2019, 10:29:01 AM »
What makes you think people are moving around less than they used to?  Anecdotally, my grandparents' and parents' friends all seemed to stick around after high school.  Most of my friends from hs live in various states across the country.  I think its much easier to find jobs out of state now with internet job listings.  Plus like you said, its very easy to stay connected with the internet and cheap flights.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/02/american-mobility-has-declined/514310/
https://www.nber.org/papers/w20065 [Declining Migration within the U.S.: The Role of the Labor Market]
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2017/01/mover-rate.html?cid=17mover-rate [United States Mover Rate at a New Record Low]

Another Reader

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2019, 10:32:14 AM »
If you think you want to buy rentals in the Phoenix market today, I would rethink that.  Rent to value ratios are completely out of whack because of owner-occupant demand for housing.  A house that rents for $1,500 will cost you close to $300k.  No 1 percent rule properties there.

For the experience of relocating to Phoenix and where to live if you work downtown, look at @Travis 's journal.  Tempe and the light rail are a good combination.  I do suggest renting for a year to get a feel for the Phoenix area, which is quite large.  Travis tried biking to light rail, so he would be a good person to ask about that.  May to October you are looking at 100 degree plus temperatures every day and that will probably discourage you.

LifeHappens

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2019, 10:39:34 AM »
OP, have you actually spent time in Phoenix? Your initial post mentions watching YouTube videos, but you don't say how familiar you are with the area. Before committing to a move like that, I would spend at least a week in the area looking at neighborhoods, schools, the housing market and any other quality of life factors you want.

Just Joe

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2019, 11:03:35 AM »
Any chance you could take a family weekend trip out there? Might save you $$$$ if you realize that AZ is last on your list.

Dave1442397

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2019, 11:29:33 AM »
Based on property tax savings alone, a $7k drop in salary should be hardly noticeable.

My property taxes are $12,000/year in NJ. Looking at houses that cost the same in Phoenix, I see taxes around $3,000/year.

wageslave23

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2019, 11:37:31 AM »
What makes you think people are moving around less than they used to?  Anecdotally, my grandparents' and parents' friends all seemed to stick around after high school.  Most of my friends from hs live in various states across the country.  I think its much easier to find jobs out of state now with internet job listings.  Plus like you said, its very easy to stay connected with the internet and cheap flights.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/02/american-mobility-has-declined/514310/
https://www.nber.org/papers/w20065 [Declining Migration within the U.S.: The Role of the Labor Market]
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2017/01/mover-rate.html?cid=17mover-rate [United States Mover Rate at a New Record Low]

Interesting.  I would have never guessed that.   How did people pre-internet find jobs and housing out of state?  Thanks for the links!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 11:46:16 AM by wageslave23 »

couponvan

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2019, 11:45:00 AM »
I had a friend relocate to Phoenix from the Midwest where property taxes were $12K on a $400K house....She's paying $2.5K on a $300K house that is bigger AND has a pool.  I'd say it's not going to cost you more OOP, but you might miss the family.  Start looking at travel hacking and possibly fly your wife's dad down there occasionally.  It's going to be HOT in the summer though.  Be prepared for that.  Good luck. 

We relocated to VA from IL, away from the DH's family, and while they weren't always involved, it was nice to have that "emergency backup" for strange situations where you want a sitter/need help immediately.  My kids are older, so the childcare isn't an issue, but there have been a few...."I need xyz to get a ride home from abc," and having absolutely no network is hard.  I'm not even working right now and it's hard.  I'd say having a younger child will actually help you make friends with play groups/toddler activities where other parents are involved. 

alohaKane

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2019, 02:09:53 PM »
If you think you want to buy rentals in the Phoenix market today, I would rethink that.  Rent to value ratios are completely out of whack because of owner-occupant demand for housing.  A house that rents for $1,500 will cost you close to $300k.  No 1 percent rule properties there.

For the experience of relocating to Phoenix and where to live if you work downtown, look at @Travis 's journal.  Tempe and the light rail are a good combination.  I do suggest renting for a year to get a feel for the Phoenix area, which is quite large.  Travis tried biking to light rail, so he would be a good person to ask about that.  May to October you are looking at 100 degree plus temperatures every day and that will probably discourage you.

Not surprising on the rent to value conclusion you have there. I've been scouring the inventory in the central area and have not seen any prospects, unless, we join the club - owner occupants (which is more likely).

Luckily, I will have to spend about 5 months while my DH and kid finish our lease in NJ. She still have to finish up school until summer so that works in our favor of buying time. I haven't looked at Tempe as I am more focused on really cutting down my commute time. If all else fails, then I'll start considering venturing out of the city center.


alohaKane

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2019, 02:21:59 PM »
OP, have you actually spent time in Phoenix? Your initial post mentions watching YouTube videos, but you don't say how familiar you are with the area. Before committing to a move like that, I would spend at least a week in the area looking at neighborhoods, schools, the housing market and any other quality of life factors you want.

NOT AT ALL.

The decision is completely based on intuition. I grew up in dirty Manila, Philippines so the hot temp and the so called "hood" here in the U.S. does not phase me at all. Now, when it come to DH and the son's safety is totally different discussion. As mentioned above, I will have about 5 months until August until they follow me. This might be enough time to identify which corners to avoid or what not.

On that note, if anyone has a room for rent, ;p I'm a family man with no addictions. So let me know!

Noodle

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2019, 02:22:03 PM »
What makes you think people are moving around less than they used to?  Anecdotally, my grandparents' and parents' friends all seemed to stick around after high school.  Most of my friends from hs live in various states across the country.  I think its much easier to find jobs out of state now with internet job listings.  Plus like you said, its very easy to stay connected with the internet and cheap flights.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/02/american-mobility-has-declined/514310/
https://www.nber.org/papers/w20065 [Declining Migration within the U.S.: The Role of the Labor Market]
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2017/01/mover-rate.html?cid=17mover-rate [United States Mover Rate at a New Record Low]

Interesting.  I would have never guessed that.   How did people pre-internet find jobs and housing out of state?  Thanks for the links!

Large organizations moved staff around pretty frequently, so you might stay at one company your whole career but find yourself living many different places especially if you were in a national or global industry. I used to live in an area with a lot of du Pont employees and you would often hear of the different locations they had transferred through over the years. Military life still involves a lot of moving but my understanding is that moves used to be even more frequent, and even the churches--it used to be the case that the Methodist church transferred pastors every couple of years. In the days before a spouse's career had to be taken into consideration (and of course before easy travel and telecommunications made management at a distance viable), companies often found the easiest way to solve a problem was to physically move someone to that location.

So moving around didn't necessarily mean that you found your own job or even housing. Most of my career has been post-Internet, but for those looking for their own positions, print publications--the newspaper for general stuff, specialist publications in your field for specific professions--was the way to go.

I do think it is still common to go somewhere other than your hometown post-college, but people seem to move less after their initial settling-in phase. My parents moved all over the place as we were growing up, and both my siblings picked a location and have stayed there.

Another Reader

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2019, 03:33:22 PM »
If you think you want to buy rentals in the Phoenix market today, I would rethink that.  Rent to value ratios are completely out of whack because of owner-occupant demand for housing.  A house that rents for $1,500 will cost you close to $300k.  No 1 percent rule properties there.

For the experience of relocating to Phoenix and where to live if you work downtown, look at @Travis 's journal.  Tempe and the light rail are a good combination.  I do suggest renting for a year to get a feel for the Phoenix area, which is quite large.  Travis tried biking to light rail, so he would be a good person to ask about that.  May to October you are looking at 100 degree plus temperatures every day and that will probably discourage you.

Not surprising on the rent to value conclusion you have there. I've been scouring the inventory in the central area and have not seen any prospects, unless, we join the club - owner occupants (which is more likely).

Luckily, I will have to spend about 5 months while my DH and kid finish our lease in NJ. She still have to finish up school until summer so that works in our favor of buying time. I haven't looked at Tempe as I am more focused on really cutting down my commute time. If all else fails, then I'll start considering venturing out of the city center.

Like I said, communicate with Travis.  He had all kinds of suggestions and ideas from well-meaning people about where to live before he got there.  Changed quickly once he looked at some houses and neighborhoods, and how he was going to get to work.

Overall, you will find Phoenix to be very car-centric.  Depending on where the job actually is, light rail can be your friend.  Your DS can be in a good school and you can get to work in a reasonable amount of time.

There are some undesirable neighborhoods west and south of downtown. Schools, crime rates, and lack of amenities are all problems. There are plenty of accessible neighborhoods that will meet your criteria.  I find Google street view to be very useful in your situation.  You can look at neighborhoods and "drive" your route to work and to school.  Suggest you play with that to narrow down your neighborhood choices. Just understand that prices today in the more desirable locations are at all time highs.  Phoenix is a very cyclical market that is dependent on immigration from California and other places.  When that drops, prices fall in Phoenix.  Whatever you buy, you may lose money when it's time to sell.

Cassie

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2019, 05:51:05 PM »
We have moved quite a few times. When you have little kids you meet other parents at school, daycare, parents groups, etc.   When we were young and wanted to relocate we went to the library to look up COL, etc.  Then I typed resumes on a typewriter and mailed them out. One summer I typed 200. Then someone had to be home to answer the phone because no answering machines.   We have it so easy now:)). It can be very exciting to move.

laserlady

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2019, 06:23:58 PM »
Interesting.  I would have never guessed that.   How did people pre-internet find jobs and housing out of state?  Thanks for the links!

The way it worked in the older generations of my family is that the dad would move out first to start his new job and look for housing for the family, then the mom and kids would go join him there once he had a place for them to stay.  (My grandma had some horror stories about moving 5 kids under the age of 8, plus all of their belongings, across the country by train, with no one to help her.)

Loretta

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2019, 06:54:23 PM »
If you are looking for convincing, here are my thoughts. 

Yes, cross country moves are overwhelming.  Is your new employer helping at all?  Are you leaving a federal job for another federal job?  If so I would expect your new HR folks to help with some of the admin load. 

Based on climate alone, I would prefer to live in AZ over NJ, easily.

You sound like you’re younger and if there’s ever going to be a convenient time to move, this may be it.  Good luck! 

soccerluvof4

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2019, 03:46:55 AM »
Your young enough and obviously the child is too so I am all for you giving it a shot. AZ over NJ without question but I would really follow the advice from @Another Reader . You can take a lot of the stress and worry out by just doing some homework and perhaps rent a place for a year to see where you really want to live. Bottom line more homework the better and as others have mentioned with todays technology there is so much information and answers to your questions and worries right at your finger tips from schools to community demographics, average incomes etc..

former player

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2019, 04:30:29 AM »
The news about future water supply problems in Phoenix has made it across the pond.  You can't survive in a desert without water, and a house in a place without water is worthless.   I would make the move, but rent long-term rather than buy.

sixup

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2019, 05:10:21 AM »
I too am leaving NJ very soon and cannot wait.

You're leaving one of the highest COL states. Over taxed, stressed, and populated. I've never been to AZ but I imagine it being much easier living than NJ.

My wife is originally from NJ and until she lived in a couple other states for years she didn't realize how much it sucks. We moved to NJ for family and decided it is not worth it. How often do you actually see family? For us everyone is so busy, it becomes such an ordeal to spend time with them. And everyone is always a 40-60 minute, chaotic death drive through ridiculous traffic, away. Plus there's the whole 'dont live your life for others' thing, which is in the top life regrets of the dying.

Moving won't automatically make you or anyone happy, but I think you'll probably notice lower stress levels, open space, warmer weather and people, and the ability to slow down a little.

Another Reader

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2019, 06:10:57 AM »
The news about future water supply problems in Phoenix has made it across the pond.  You can't survive in a desert without water, and a house in a place without water is worthless.   I would make the move, but rent long-term rather than buy.

The state with the water problem is California, not Arizona.  Despite the arid desert climate, there are multiple dams on the rivers in Arizona and the population is much lower.  California has been using Arizona's contractually granted share of Colorado River water for decades, and that could change as well.  There are no water use restrictions in Arizona at this point.  Water rates aren't cheap, but you can use all you want.  Heck, farmers are still growing cotton, a heavy water use crop, in Arizona.

alohaKane

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2019, 09:26:20 AM »
We have moved quite a few times. When you have little kids you meet other parents at school, daycare, parents groups, etc.   When we were young and wanted to relocate we went to the library to look up COL, etc.  Then I typed resumes on a typewriter and mailed them out. One summer I typed 200. Then someone had to be home to answer the phone because no answering machines.   We have it so easy now:)). It can be very exciting to move.

Time def has changed things. I can't imagine doing paper applications at this age.. Thank you for your insight Cassie!

alohaKane

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2019, 09:34:57 AM »
Any chance you could take a family weekend trip out there? Might save you $$$$ if you realize that AZ is last on your list.

Most likely they'll visit once I'm there and started the job. I don't see any point of visiting the place if I already took the job. *faceplam*

And I don't think I can rescind my acceptance after determining a EOD (entrance on duty) since both offices has been notified. Other fed employees can jump in if I'm wrong..

It's all good tho, good thing about this job we have alot of opening throughout U.S. ;p

Travis

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2019, 11:10:26 AM »
Phoenix resident here. As @Another Reader name-dropped me a couple times I'll offer my perspective.  For starters, "Phoenix" when looked at on a map is actually 7 distinct cities mashed together.  I live in Tempe and work in downtown Phoenix.  My coworkers live as near as downtown Phoenix, and as far away as Glendale, Peoria, and Gilbert.  Most of these cities have their own pockets of lower/middle/upper class neighborhoods.  Traffic on the freeways always busy, but is much more organized compared to many other high-population cities in the US.  The entire valley (you'll hear this cluster of civilization referred to as such) is built more or less on a grid with the highways both cutting through and encircling the region.  It also has a robust public transit system.  From my middle class neighborhood in Tempe I drive or bike 15 minutes to a garage and jump on a train that runs every 12 minutes.  My total commute is 45 minutes.  Half the folks I work with take a "rapid" bus that runs every 30-60 minutes and drops them off within a block of the office.  I don't bike in the summer, but that's just me. 

I'll back up the opinions of those who says don't buy a house - especially if you know nothing about the area.  The 1800sq ft homes on my street rent for $1300-$1600/mo, but sell for well over $300k.  Just a couple miles south of here is a neighborhood of nothing but 3500sq ft homes with 3-car garages full of SUVs and boats selling for minimum $400k.  The valley's housing market has been growing at around 3% a year.  You can find a few sweet spots of price and quality of life, but you have to take the time to study.  If you're looking at the actual city of Phoenix near the city center, you're going to encounter two types of housing - dirt poor homes and business/college-oriented apartments.  It gets better, but you're not going to find family-friendly housing within bicycle range of downtown unless you're comfortable with 30-45 min rides.  The winters are very comfortable, but the temp hits 100 in May and doesn't drop below that until October with sustained 120 degree days in July/August.  The light rail runs from Mesa in the east right through downtown Phoenix and swings north for another 20 blocks or so.  That northern rail corridor above I-10 is a good place to look for housing.  South Phoenix as you get closer to the mountain is good as well, but that mountain attracts higher prices.  My former boss lived in northern Scottsdale and drove in every day, but his household income meant he wasn't paying any attention to his costs.

www.valleymetro.org is the region's public transit website and has all the maps, routes, and calculators to help give you an idea of your options.

lilactree

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Re: Help me justify this $7000 paycut and relocation
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2019, 01:46:11 PM »
Hi! I’m curious if there are any updates or further thoughts on moving from the northeast to AZ.