Half a 'Stache

[redpillgreen]

Dear Mustachians,

We are collectively missing half a 'stache. Allow me to elaborate.

After MMM mentioned the Paleo diet on the podcast with Tim Ferris, I felt it was time to come out of the woodwork and post up. Just wanted to science the shit out of this for a second.

TL;DR - Paleo/Atkins type diets (aka ketogenic) do work for temporary weight loss. But they are terrible for long-term health. A whole foods plant based (WFPB) diet is a much more Mustachian option, is great for health, weight management and peak athletic performance, and is sustainable over the long term.

Why?

• The majority of our Western lifestyle diseases are attributable to diet - including the top killers such as heart disease, diabetes, cancer, hypertension, etc.
• A WFPB diet has been proven to prevent, and in some cases reverse, many of these diseases.
• Doctors happen to be the #3 leading cause of death in the US. Not getting sick is a proven strategy for avoiding contact with doctors - and associated risk of death.
• A WFPB diet is the only sustainable choice for our planet long term. Animal agriculture contributes over 50% of greenhouse emissions today. Taking perfectly good plants and making them into meat wastes over 90% of the environmental inputs (water, energy, land, etc). We grow enough food on the planet to feed 12 billion people, but then we feed it to livestock.
• Many top athletes report improved performance from a WFPB diet.
• Adopting WFPB means choosing personal empowerment over the 'safe' default option. Trusting science and logic over the propaganda and disinformation pushed by an entrenched industry (same tactics as tobacco and climate change deniers - c.f. the movie "Merchants of Doubt").
• The science has been clear for decades. Just as with tobacco, industry doesn't need to win with facts. They just need to delay the inevitable long enough to squeeze yet more cash out of the meat grinder.
• Incidentally, a WFPB diet is also a cheaper option. So it ties in well with financial independence.
• More than anything, learning about this lets people feel empowered to take back control of their health and their lives - which is exactly what I think MMM is about.
  

Dear MMM, I PROPOSE - the greatest MMM experiment yet. Adopt a whole foods plant based diet and document your experience. It can be as short as 3-4 weeks, to see significant benefits.

Dear Community - please post up if you are already plant-based!

Dmitri aka RPG
instagram/redpillgreen

PS - References / Further Reading:
Movies: Forks over Knives, Cowspiracy, PlantPure Nation, Food Choices, The Game Changers
Books: The China Study, How Not to Die, The Starch Solution, The 80/10/10 Diet, The Engine2 Diet, etc
Online: nutritionfacts.org

[redpillgreen]

Assorted famous plant based people:
- James Cameron (+family, +the school they run in CA)
- Bill Clinton
- Moby
- Leonardo DiCaprio
- Athletes: Tom Brady, Venus Williams, Alexey Vivaldi (2x Gold Olympian, 10x champion arm wrestling), Patrick Baboumian (3x Guinness record strongman), James Wilks (MMA fighter), Scott Jurek (ultra runner). Many many other examples - the Rich Roll podcast is a good place to start for more on this.

[ltt]

Bill Clinton---plant-based diet person??  I thought he loved McDonald's.  :)

I agree that Atkins, in the long-term, is tough to sustain.  Sooner or later one always goes back to the carbs.  Although I will admit, I feel better if doing low-carb.

[GreenSheep]

Thank you for posting this. I'm 100% plant-based, and both my health and my bank account are loving it (not to mention my conscience). I am familiar with all of the resources you mentioned, and they've helped me a lot in my transition from omnivore to plant eater. Just like any other time nutrition has been mentioned on this forum, I think you'll probably get a lot of discussion/arguments, but thank you for bringing it up. Just wanted you to know you're not alone!

[Tonyahu]

Eat 3-8 oz of poultry or beef about 2x per day. Although I have recently switched from Whey protein shakes to plant based do due dairy digestion issues.

I haven't seen any conclusive studies that steer me away from meat / poultry. Although there are studies (Mediterranean Diet) that may prove a balance diet, including fish and poultry to be incredibly healthy.

[tarheeldan]

Biased poll. Would vote for 80% plants, 20% meat/animal products.

[Guesl982374]

Biased poll. Would vote for 80% plants, 20% meat/animal products.

+1

[TravelJunkyQC]

Doctors happen to be the #3 leading cause of death in the US. Not getting sick is a proven strategy for avoiding contact with doctors - and associated risk of death.[/li][li]

More people die when in the presence and under the care of doctors because more people go to doctors when they are sick.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Also, we are a biologically omnivorous species. Saying that "meat = bad, vegetables = good" is a gross oversimplification. Western society has wildly skewed the ratios of our diet composition, but eliminating entire subsections of our diet isn't the answer.

There is actually no strong evidence that no-meat is healthier. If you're talking processed meat, than yes, of course - but this is true for ALL processed food. Unprocessed meat however, is shown to have health benefits if consumed reasonably in a balanced diet.

However, the correlation between increased health and vegetarian/vegan/whole foods diet is actually based more on the health-consciousness of the individual, rather than the actual diet. Example: statistically speaking, vegetarians/vegans/whole food diet followers will be more health-conscious (more athletic, less drinking, less smoking, etc) than others. Ipso-facto, the correlation is not whether there is meat in the diet, but rather on the ENTIRE lifestyle of the individual.

Again, correlation does NOT equate causation.

And I agree that mass-scale meat agriculture has a negative impact on the environment. Mass-scale plant agriculture does as well, unfortunately, just based on the sheer quantity of land needed to feed our entire human population. Meat is worse in terms of scale, but neither is devoid of fault and problems.

Ideally, we would all grow our own food and hunt as individuals. However, this isn't the world we live in. Long-distance transportation, international shipping, clothes-making, pharmaceutical-development, all of our modern amenities have negative effects on the environment. We should all live and create locally to fix these things. Eliminating meat isn't the answer. Eliminating an entire dietary group simplifies a problem that is cultural, rather than dietary.

And by the way, why is it that whole-grain plant based diets are scientifically discouraged for children? Perhaps it isn't everything it's cracked up to be for human physiology?

[tarheeldan]

More people die when in the presence and under the care of doctors because more people go to doctors when they are sick.

Correlation does not imply causation.

+1

[aceyou]

Every 3 weeks or so we pull a whole chicken out of our freezer and cook it. (that we buy from a local farmer who let's the chickens run around like a chicken should)
Every 3 weeks or so we buy a pound of fish from the store and make a meal out of it. 
Every 3 weeks or so we have meat in some random other way. 


We buy milk for the kids, and we all eat other dairy products.

Other that that, it's all fruits/veggies/grains/etc. 

I'm happy with our balance. 

[mozar]

I thought the bit about doctors was tongue in cheek, but who knows. I saw a great ted talk about what the paleothic people  (think paleo diet) actually ate. It turns out that scientists assumed that paleolithic people ate a lot of meat because there were a lot of bones in the caves. But after examining the teeth of cave people scientists saw that they rarely ate meat, it's just that bones last longer in the fossil record.
What they ate depended on where they lived.
North and South Americans ate a corn based diet.
Europeans ate a barley and potato based diet
Asian people a rice based diet etc.

And just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we should. Despite popular belief the ted talk went on to say that human bodies aren't adapted to eating meat. Our intestines are longer than carnivores in order extract more nutrients from vegetables,  and our teeth are for grinding vegetables, we don't have long canines for tearing meat off the bone. Whenever I hear someone say that humans adapted to eating meat I want to ask them if they can tear raw meat off a bone with their teeth which would be very impressive.

I agree with a previous poster that we don't have to stop eating meat entirely. But a few times a year rather than several times a day would go a long way towards cleaning up the environment  (animal waste and methane) and improving our health.

And personally I have a big problem with dairy milk. Keeping a cow pregnant year round so she can provide milk seems unethical to me.

[Optimiser]

https://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/

[Iplawyer]

Dear Mustachians,

We are collectively missing half a 'stache. Allow me to elaborate.

After MMM mentioned the Paleo diet on the podcast with Tim Ferris, I felt it was time to come out of the woodwork and post up. Just wanted to science the shit out of this for a second.

TL;DR - Paleo/Atkins type diets (aka ketogenic) do work for temporary weight loss. But they are terrible for long-term health. A whole foods plant based (WFPB) diet is a much more Mustachian option, is great for health, weight management and peak athletic performance, and is sustainable over the long term.

Why?

• The majority of our Western lifestyle diseases are attributable to diet - including the top killers such as heart disease, diabetes, cancer, hypertension, etc.
• A WFPB diet has been proven to prevent, and in some cases reverse, many of these diseases.
• Doctors happen to be the #3 leading cause of death in the US. Not getting sick is a proven strategy for avoiding contact with doctors - and associated risk of death.
• A WFPB diet is the only sustainable choice for our planet long term. Animal agriculture contributes over 50% of greenhouse emissions today. Taking perfectly good plants and making them into meat wastes over 90% of the environmental inputs (water, energy, land, etc). We grow enough food on the planet to feed 12 billion people, but then we feed it to livestock.
• Many top athletes report improved performance from a WFPB diet.
• Adopting WFPB means choosing personal empowerment over the 'safe' default option. Trusting science and logic over the propaganda and disinformation pushed by an entrenched industry (same tactics as tobacco and climate change deniers - c.f. the movie "Merchants of Doubt").
• The science has been clear for decades. Just as with tobacco, industry doesn't need to win with facts. They just need to delay the inevitable long enough to squeeze yet more cash out of the meat grinder.
• Incidentally, a WFPB diet is also a cheaper option. So it ties in well with financial independence.
• More than anything, learning about this lets people feel empowered to take back control of their health and their lives - which is exactly what I think MMM is about.
  

Dear MMM, I PROPOSE - the greatest MMM experiment yet. Adopt a whole foods plant based diet and document your experience. It can be as short as 3-4 weeks, to see significant benefits.

Dear Community - please post up if you are already plant-based!

Dmitri aka RPG
instagram/redpillgreen

PS - References / Further Reading:
Movies: Forks over Knives, Cowspiracy, PlantPure Nation, Food Choices, The Game Changers
Books: The China Study, How Not to Die, The Starch Solution, The 80/10/10 Diet, The Engine2 Diet, etc
Online: nutritionfacts.org

There are just as many resources saying the Paleo diet is a sustainable and healthy diet as you can point to about your opinion that a vegetarian diet is better.  But yours is just an opinion and you are apparently passionate about it.  But it is still an opinion and it offends me that you proclaim it to be absolutely the truth.  The US government thrust low fat - high carb diets on us as "healthy" for years - and now it turns out that is not the case.   We have been eating plants and animals since the beginning of time.  It is healthy to continue doing so.  I'm not going to put 100 references below this.  Why?  Because you can Google it yourself.

[Iplawyer]

I thought the bit about doctors was tongue in cheek, but who knows. I saw a great ted talk about what the paleothic people  (think paleo diet) actually ate. It turns out that scientists assumed that paleolithic people ate a lot of meat because there were a lot of bones in the caves. But after examining the teeth of cave people scientists saw that they rarely ate meat, it's just that bones last longer in the fossil record.
What they ate depended on where they lived.
North and South Americans ate a corn based diet.
Europeans ate a barley and potato based diet
Asian people a rice based diet etc.

And just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we should. Despite popular belief the ted talk went on to say that human bodies aren't adapted to eating meat. Our intestines are longer than carnivores in order extract more nutrients from vegetables,  and our teeth are for grinding vegetables, we don't have long canines for tearing meat off the bone. Whenever I hear someone say that humans adapted to eating meat I want to ask them if they can tear raw meat off a bone with their teeth which would be very impressive.

I agree with a previous poster that we don't have to stop eating meat entirely. But a few times a year rather than several times a day would go a long way towards cleaning up the environment  (animal waste and methane) and improving our health.

And personally I have a big problem with dairy milk. Keeping a cow pregnant year round so she can provide milk seems unethical to me.

You do know that the Europeans did not have potatoes until they were brought to Europe from the New World - right?  So there were no potatoes in paleolithic times in Europe.

[TravelJunkyQC]

I thought the bit about doctors was tongue in cheek, but who knows. I saw a great ted talk about what the paleothic people  (think paleo diet) actually ate. It turns out that scientists assumed that paleolithic people ate a lot of meat because there were a lot of bones in the caves. But after examining the teeth of cave people scientists saw that they rarely ate meat, it's just that bones last longer in the fossil record.
What they ate depended on where they lived.
North and South Americans ate a corn based diet.
Europeans ate a barley and potato based diet
Asian people a rice based diet etc.

And just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we should. Despite popular belief the ted talk went on to say that human bodies aren't adapted to eating meat. Our intestines are longer than carnivores in order extract more nutrients from vegetables,  and our teeth are for grinding vegetables, we don't have long canines for tearing meat off the bone. Whenever I hear someone say that humans adapted to eating meat I want to ask them if they can tear raw meat off a bone with their teeth which would be very impressive.

I agree with a previous poster that we don't have to stop eating meat entirely. But a few times a year rather than several times a day would go a long way towards cleaning up the environment  (animal waste and methane) and improving our health.

And personally I have a big problem with dairy milk. Keeping a cow pregnant year round so she can provide milk seems unethical to me.

You do know that the Europeans did not have potatoes until they were brought to Europe from the New World - right?  So there were no potatoes in paleolithic times in Europe.

Ugh, thank-you. I so didn't want to get into this, but... um.. YEAH!!

The paleothic period corresponds to the time period beginning approximately 2.4 to 2.6 million years ago (depending on where in the world you're talking about) to approximately 10,000 years ago. The neolithic period (also called the AGRICULTURAL Revolution), began after this, again, depending on where in the world you're talking about. The Neolithic period saw the beginning of organized en-masse agriculture. Naturally, crops weren't actually transported from one continent to another before HUMANS did so- since potatoes originated in the highland steps of South America, paleolithic peoples of Europe most certainly did not know what they were.

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

[Optimiser]

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

30-40 may have been the average lifespan, but this includes a much higher infant mortality rate than we see today.
Source: http://paleodiet.com/life-expectancy.htm

[nouveauRiche]

We just watched Forks Over Knives and I thought about starting a thread about it. 

We're not vegetarian/vegan by any means but we are eating more meatless meals.  The movie just motivated us even more.  Better for health, better for environment, better for wallet.

[nouveauRiche]

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

That would be a valid argument if there hadn't been any advances in medicine in the past 10,000 years.

[TravelJunkyQC]

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

That would be a valid argument if there hadn't been any advances in medicine in the past 10,000 years.

That was actually part of my argument - science, medicine, and health, have all greatly advanced in the past 10,000 years. Our understanding of basic biology has come a long way. And it's partially why I don't understand why we're so hell-bent on recreating what we believe to be an ancient diet, when there's been so much advancement since then.

[Zikoris]

Yup yup. Vegan for 18 years, since way before it was cool. Never had any issues, always loved the food and how it makes me feel. Apparently it saves me money, but I wouldn't know, since I was vegan way before I started grocery shopping. Eating dead bodies and bodily fluids just stopped appealing to me once I realized how those things worked as a pre-teen, and I never went back.

[mozar]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

[TravelJunkyQC]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

1. Average life expectancy at birth was indeed around that age. https://amphilsoc.org/sites/default/files/proceedings/Finch1561.pdf

2. While their average caloric expenditure was approximately the same as ours, their resting metabolic rate was lower, which is why they expended the same number of calories as us. However, the amount of time in a day that they moved was still higher than ours. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0040503

3. And in terms of meat eating, our physiology and biological evolution supports the theory that not only CAN we eat meat, but we may not even have become human in our present form had we not incorporated it into the diet. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v531/n7595/full/nature16990.html

I'm sorry, I didn't watch the youtube video, and I don't have access to the NY Times article (I already busted my max number of free articles for this month).

But in general, peer-reviewed scientific studies or it didn't happen :p

P.S. I don't want to get into more of an argument on this fantastic forum. Can we just agree to disagree - and what happens among consenting, knowledgable adults, be it a choice in diet, or other, is fine by me.

[redpillgreen]

Woohoo I have started a shitstorm! Thanks everyone for the replies! I'll try to hit everyone but apologies if I miss one.

Bill Clinton---plant-based diet person??  I thought he loved McDonald's.  :)

I agree that Atkins, in the long-term, is tough to sustain.  Sooner or later one always goes back to the carbs.  Although I will admit, I feel better if doing low-carb.

Yes! I was shocked as well. Here it is from the horse's mouth, as it were. I think he "stopped" it once HRC went on the campaign trail. Wouldn't be surprised if he is still on WFPB behind closed doors though :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11HW2uO0Q58

There is nothing wrong with carbs! It's simple carbs (refined sugar, white flour, etc) that you should be worried about. And fat. Trans fat aka hydrogenated oils. Saturated fat.

Thank you for posting this. I'm 100% plant-based, and both my health and my bank account are loving it (not to mention my conscience). I am familiar with all of the resources you mentioned, and they've helped me a lot in my transition from omnivore to plant eater. Just like any other time nutrition has been mentioned on this forum, I think you'll probably get a lot of discussion/arguments, but thank you for bringing it up. Just wanted you to know you're not alone!

Cool! Glad to hear it's working well for you! I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on how your diet choice relates to your financial choices / Mustachian practice. To me the parallels between "mainstream financial advice vs. Mustachians" and "mainstream dietary advice vs. plant based diets" are very striking. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Eat 3-8 oz of poultry or beef about 2x per day. Although I have recently switched from Whey protein shakes to plant based do due dairy digestion issues.

I haven't seen any conclusive studies that steer me away from meat / poultry. Although there are studies (Mediterranean Diet) that may prove a balance diet, including fish and poultry to be incredibly healthy.

Fun quote for you - "You're not lactose intolerant, you're just not a baby cow"

There does seem to be alot of benefits to reducing the amount of animal products without going all the way.

If you'd like to see primary references, I highly recommend the book "How not to Die" by Dr Greger. The list of references fills the last 80 pages or so.

Biased poll. Would vote for 80% plants, 20% meat/animal products.

+1

Ha sorry about that! I tried to design a wide range but was polishing that up at 2am. I guess the closest option would be "Dabbled in the past / Meatless Mondays / etc" -> let's rename that to "partially/mostly plant-based"

[redpillgreen]

Let me try to hit this point by point.

Doctors happen to be the #3 leading cause of death in the US. Not getting sick is a proven strategy for avoiding contact with doctors - and associated risk of death.[/li][li]

More people die when in the presence and under the care of doctors because more people go to doctors when they are sick.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Not "in the presence of doctors", but "as a causal result of medical treatment". The total deaths from:
- side effects of correctly prescribed drugs
- hospital-acquired infections
- wrongly prescribed drugs or other medical errors
Place doctors at #3.

Here's a much more eloquent article from Dr Greger at nutritionfacts.org

http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/10/medical-care-the-third-leading-cause-of-death/

Also, we are a biologically omnivorous species. Saying that "meat = bad, vegetables = good" is a gross oversimplification. Western society has wildly skewed the ratios of our diet composition, but eliminating entire subsections of our diet isn't the answer.

Yes this does seem to be the Paleo wet dream - go on the hunt and bring back a huge chunk of meat for your appreciative cave woman. I'd wager though that a much more likely source of animal food in the original paleo period were - carrion and bugs! 

There is actually no strong evidence that no-meat is healthier. If you're talking processed meat, than yes, of course - but this is true for ALL processed food. Unprocessed meat however, is shown to have health benefits if consumed reasonably in a balanced diet.

Agree that processed meats are especially horrendous. There's a reason they are officially labeled a carcinogen by the WHO. Note that WHO also labels all red meat as a "probable carcinogen". There is a mountain of evidence - population studies, animal models, and clinical evidence - that no meat IS better. Again, I suggest The China Study.

I would love to see primary sources for these supposed health benefits.

However, the correlation between increased health and vegetarian/vegan/whole foods diet is actually based more on the health-consciousness of the individual, rather than the actual diet. Example: statistically speaking, vegetarians/vegans/whole food diet followers will be more health-conscious (more athletic, less drinking, less smoking, etc) than others. Ipso-facto, the correlation is not whether there is meat in the diet, but rather on the ENTIRE lifestyle of the individual.

Again, correlation does NOT equate causation.

Again, primary sources please.

And I agree that mass-scale meat agriculture has a negative impact on the environment. Mass-scale plant agriculture does as well, unfortunately, just based on the sheer quantity of land needed to feed our entire human population. Meat is worse in terms of scale, but neither is devoid of fault and problems.

Ironically, CAFO meat production has less green house impact than grass fed beef. The industrialized practice is simply very efficient.

Ultimately it doesn't matter because it's a false equivalence. It takes 10-20 times the amount of environmental inputs to produce X calories of meat compared to the same X calories of a plants. Again we produce enough food to feed about 12bil people, but feed a huge chunk of it to livestock.

Did I mention the massive amount of antibiotics fed to CAFO animals and resulting drug-resistant bug epidemic? Up 750% between 2007 and 2015 - from 0.2 to 1.5% of infections being a multi-resistant strain.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/multidrug-resistant-infections-hitting-kids-hard-750-increase-since-2007/

Ideally, we would all grow our own food and hunt as individuals. However, this isn't the world we live in. Long-distance transportation, international shipping, clothes-making, pharmaceutical-development, all of our modern amenities have negative effects on the environment. We should all live and create locally to fix these things. Eliminating meat isn't the answer. Eliminating an entire dietary group simplifies a problem that is cultural, rather than dietary.

Eliminating meat would eliminate 51% of our greenhouse gas emissions. Sounds like an answer to me.

And by the way, why is it that whole-grain plant based diets are scientifically discouraged for children? Perhaps it isn't everything it's cracked up to be for human physiology?

Primary references please?

Plant based diets are very much encouraged for children. Please check:
- "Disease Proof Your Child" by Joel Fuhrman
- "Baby and Child Care" by Dr Spock - the BIBLE of childcare first published in the 1940s, selling 50mil+ copies, and translated to 39 languages. In the revised final edition, Dr Spock was adamant that children should be fed breast fed until 2, then fed a plant based diet thereafter.

[Iplawyer]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

[OurTown]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

I'm with Iplawyer on this one.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the science is objective.  Our bodies evolved a certain way and we metabolize our nutrients a certain way.  Insulin works the way it works.  That's why Paleo works so well, and that's why we feel so much better on a ketogenic diet. 

[redpillgreen]

More people die when in the presence and under the care of doctors because more people go to doctors when they are sick.

Correlation does not imply causation.

+1

-1

Please see above

Every 3 weeks or so we pull a whole chicken out of our freezer and cook it. (that we buy from a local farmer who let's the chickens run around like a chicken should)
Every 3 weeks or so we buy a pound of fish from the store and make a meal out of it. 
Every 3 weeks or so we have meat in some random other way. 


We buy milk for the kids, and we all eat other dairy products.

Other that that, it's all fruits/veggies/grains/etc. 

I'm happy with our balance.

Happy the balance works for you! I would suggest reading more on the potential concerns with dairy products though. The potential link to type1 diabetes is quite scary (don't take dairy while on antibiotics...)

I thought the bit about doctors was tongue in cheek, but who knows. I saw a great ted talk about what the paleothic people  (think paleo diet) actually ate. It turns out that scientists assumed that paleolithic people ate a lot of meat because there were a lot of bones in the caves. But after examining the teeth of cave people scientists saw that they rarely ate meat, it's just that bones last longer in the fossil record.
What they ate depended on where they lived.
North and South Americans ate a corn based diet.
Europeans ate a barley and potato based diet
Asian people a rice based diet etc.

And just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we should. Despite popular belief the ted talk went on to say that human bodies aren't adapted to eating meat. Our intestines are longer than carnivores in order extract more nutrients from vegetables,  and our teeth are for grinding vegetables, we don't have long canines for tearing meat off the bone. Whenever I hear someone say that humans adapted to eating meat I want to ask them if they can tear raw meat off a bone with their teeth which would be very impressive.

I agree with a previous poster that we don't have to stop eating meat entirely. But a few times a year rather than several times a day would go a long way towards cleaning up the environment  (animal waste and methane) and improving our health.

And personally I have a big problem with dairy milk. Keeping a cow pregnant year round so she can provide milk seems unethical to me.

99% agree! Significantly reducing intake does give you most of the benefits.

Not to mention the pesticides in milk from spraying down cows with it...

I do want to keep it objective and not get too much into the ethics thing. But since you brought it up, what about the ethics of killing an animal for its meat. Or baby chicks being ground alive because they aren't useful? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkphooryVyQ

If nothing else, someone who chooses to eat meat should spend a day at a slaughterhouse, then see how they feel about the moral choice.

https://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html

There are just as many resources saying the Paleo diet is a sustainable and healthy diet as you can point to about your opinion that a vegetarian diet is better.  But yours is just an opinion and you are apparently passionate about it.  But it is still an opinion and it offends me that you proclaim it to be absolutely the truth.  The US government thrust low fat - high carb diets on us as "healthy" for years - and now it turns out that is not the case.   We have been eating plants and animals since the beginning of time.  It is healthy to continue doing so.  I'm not going to put 100 references below this.  Why?  Because you can Google it yourself.

Just as many does not mean just as credible. This is the false balance that gives us climate change deniers, a 50 year delay on admitting that cigarettes cause lung cancer, and other such niceties. I recommend the book/movie "Merchants of Doubt"

My rough summary on this is:
- Plant based backers: tend to be primary sources with decades of experience in research, or clinical practice.
- Paleo backers: tend to not be doing any active research in the field, and primarily interested in selling their books.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

Agree that activity level plays a role in overall health. Although improved diet seems to have about 2x the health power compared to more exercise - at least for cancer suppression.

Please post a video of yourself chewing the leg off of a live cow. Not a steak that was helpfully sliced off for you with some nice modern steel. ;)

We just watched Forks Over Knives and I thought about starting a thread about it. 

We're not vegetarian/vegan by any means but we are eating more meatless meals.  The movie just motivated us even more.  Better for health, better for environment, better for wallet.

Cool! Best of luck in your journey. The rabbit hole goes quite deep, and credible sources are few and far between.

I highly recommend the sequel to Forks over Knives called PlantPure Nation. There's also another film in the same vein from 2016 called "Food Choices"

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

That would be a valid argument if there hadn't been any advances in medicine in the past 10,000 years.

That was actually part of my argument - science, medicine, and health, have all greatly advanced in the past 10,000 years. Our understanding of basic biology has come a long way. And it's partially why I don't understand why we're so hell-bent on recreating what we believe to be an ancient diet, when there's been so much advancement since then.

On this, highly recommend T Colin Campbell's other book called "Whole". It will certainly make you think twice about modern medicine when it comes to chronic or lifestyle related conditions.

Yup yup. Vegan for 18 years, since way before it was cool. Never had any issues, always loved the food and how it makes me feel. Apparently it saves me money, but I wouldn't know, since I was vegan way before I started grocery shopping. Eating dead bodies and bodily fluids just stopped appealing to me once I realized how those things worked as a pre-teen, and I never went back.

Yup yup! It's very interesting to think about the collective mental block that we have created - not ever thinking twice about the slowly decaying chunk of dead flesh in the fridge. Contrast with "live" fruits and veggies.

Eating life > eating death.

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Yes yes a million times this! The only reason I got up on the soapbox on this particular forum, is this seems like the place where people capable of challenging their assumptions would be gathered. I guess we'll test that theory based on how badly I get beat up in this thread ;)

3. And in terms of meat eating, our physiology and biological evolution supports the theory that not only CAN we eat meat, but we may not even have become human in our present form had we not incorporated it into the diet. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v531/n7595/full/nature16990.html

I'm sorry, I didn't watch the youtube video, and I don't have access to the NY Times article (I already busted my max number of free articles for this month).

But in general, peer-reviewed scientific studies or it didn't happen :p

P.S. I don't want to get into more of an argument on this fantastic forum. Can we just agree to disagree - and what happens among consenting, knowledgable adults, be it a choice in diet, or other, is fine by me.

Any paper that measures "5% decrease in the number of chews per year" is all right in my book! LOL But going to the previous point above - anatomically capable doesn't equate to optimal or ideal. We are also anatomically capable of snorting cocaine or jumping off cliffs, but to the best of my knowledge both of those are bad ideas.

No no! Please keep the argument going. I think this is the perfect place and really happy to see >1500 views on this thread already. I'll leave you with a quote from Aristotle, who would have surely hung out on the MMM forum if he lived in our time:

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

[redpillgreen]

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

I'm with Iplawyer on this one.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the science is objective.  Our bodies evolved a certain way and we metabolize our nutrients a certain way.  Insulin works the way it works.  That's why Paleo works so well, and that's why we feel so much better on a ketogenic diet.

Absolutely incorrect. The spreading of these ideas is the biggest problem with Paleo / low carb claims, and the main reason I got up on the soapbox here after MMM mentioned Paleo.
- Low carb diet means high fat diet. High fat diet leads to type 2 diabetes. Good complex carbs and staches are not the enemy. High fat is what gives you diabetes. And refined sugars are bad for a variety of reasons.
- Long term Paleo/keto diets are insidious because they decrease your apetite. You feel good with less calories and get the weight loss goals.

Here's another good link for more on the issues with Paleo

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/

It's not an exaggeration to say that the promoters of Paleo are killing people. Oh and Dr Atkins, the original low carb guru, had extensive evidence of heart disease when he died (although that isn't what actually killed him).

[Iplawyer]

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

I'm with Iplawyer on this one.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the science is objective.  Our bodies evolved a certain way and we metabolize our nutrients a certain way.  Insulin works the way it works.  That's why Paleo works so well, and that's why we feel so much better on a ketogenic diet.

Absolutely incorrect. The spreading of these ideas is the biggest problem with Paleo / low carb claims, and the main reason I got up on the soapbox here after MMM mentioned Paleo.
- Low carb diet means high fat diet. High fat diet leads to type 2 diabetes. Good complex carbs and staches are not the enemy. High fat is what gives you diabetes. And refined sugars are bad for a variety of reasons.
- Long term Paleo/keto diets are insidious because they decrease your apetite. You feel good with less calories and get the weight loss goals.

Here's another good link for more on the issues with Paleo

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/

It's not an exaggeration to say that the promoters of Paleo are killing people. Oh and Dr Atkins, the original low carb guru, had extensive evidence of heart disease when he died (although that isn't what actually killed him).

You are not a doctor and have no idea what you are talking about.  You make statements here couched as fact when it is only your opinion.  Stop it - you are wrong about what causes diabetes.  And you are giving medical advice that you should not be giving. 

And you are wrong about this too:

"Just as many does not mean just as credible. This is the false balance that gives us climate change deniers, a 50 year delay on admitting that cigarettes cause lung cancer, and other such niceties. I recommend the book/movie "Merchants of Doubt"

My rough summary on this is:
- Plant based backers: tend to be primary sources with decades of experience in research, or clinical practice.
- Paleo backers: tend to not be doing any active research in the field, and primarily interested in selling their books."

You again couch your opinion as fact - when it is just your opinion.  Stop doing that.  And then you go on to place me in the category of people I am not.  In fact - you are like those people. 

[TravelJunkyQC]

Since the argument seems to want to continue. I'm also going to try to hit this point by point, hopefully I won't miss any. And as you're asking for primary references:

1. Discussion as to whether high-fat diets associated with animal products are really the issue, or whether it is a matter of processed foods in general: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23497300 ; http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0368131964800417 ; http://www.naturalomega-3.com/PDfs/seal_oil/journal_Inuit_of_Nunavik-Cardiovascular_Disease_Research.pdf ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23902788

2. Discussion as to whether vegan/vegetarianism is deemed beneficial to performance and overall health: http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5057&context=smhpapers

3. Should infants be vegan/vegetarian: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/2544417 ; http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/51/2/202.short ; http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/510003 ; http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/508331 ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528709/

4. The fact that humans evolved into their present form in part due to the incorporation of animal products in their diet: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/204350 ; http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6505(1999)8:1%3C11::AID-EVAN6%3E3.0.CO;2-M/abstract;jsessionid=1EDA00AE30BDF77EA662AEDAB5D99825.f03t03

P.S. The reason I included an article about human teeth and the laughable "5% decrease in number of chews per year" is that someone previously mentioned that human dentition was not made for meat-eating. Which is not the case.

P.P.S. If we're going to insist on primary sources, which we should, than I am going to do the same. nutritionfacts.org / The China Study / TED talks / YouTube videos / Random "scientific" books and movies are not peer-reviewed sources. Books and movies with cherry-picked facts don't count. Peer-review, randomized control trial tested publications or no dice.

[pbkmaine]

Hmm. I guess I'm a moderate here, too, as well as in so many other ways. I have been reading about agriculture and "blue zones" for a long time. Here's what I have gotten:
1) Refined sugar is evil.
2) So is highly processed food.
3) Vegetables and fruits are good, as are pulses (beans) and whole grains.
4) Commercial fertilizers, monoculture and factory farms are terrible for the soil and water.

I think all of us would be better off if we ate lower on the food chain most of the time. But I am not convinced that vegan is best. Organic farms do better when there are livestock and poultry in the mix. Poultry are a great source of insect control, and both poultry and livestock produce fertilizer. In addition, many places on the earth are not suited for agriculture, but are great for grazing animals. In terms of sustainability, I think Joel Salatin's farming model works.

[Iplawyer]

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

I'm with Iplawyer on this one.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the science is objective.  Our bodies evolved a certain way and we metabolize our nutrients a certain way.  Insulin works the way it works.  That's why Paleo works so well, and that's why we feel so much better on a ketogenic diet.

Absolutely incorrect. The spreading of these ideas is the biggest problem with Paleo / low carb claims, and the main reason I got up on the soapbox here after MMM mentioned Paleo.
- Low carb diet means high fat diet. High fat diet leads to type 2 diabetes. Good complex carbs and staches are not the enemy. High fat is what gives you diabetes. And refined sugars are bad for a variety of reasons.
- Long term Paleo/keto diets are insidious because they decrease your apetite. You feel good with less calories and get the weight loss goals.

Here's another good link for more on the issues with Paleo

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/

It's not an exaggeration to say that the promoters of Paleo are killing people. Oh and Dr Atkins, the original low carb guru, had extensive evidence of heart disease when he died (although that isn't what actually killed him).

And again - you are outright WRONG about Dr. Atkins:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/11/nyregion/just-what-killed-the-diet-doctor-and-what-keeps-the-issue-alive.html

I really wish the MODERATORS would tell you to stop trying to give people medical advice - especially since you don't know what you are talking about.

[TravelJunkyQC]

Hmm. I guess I'm a moderate here, too, as well as in so many other ways. I have been reading about agriculture and "blue zones" for a long time. Here's what I have gotten:
1) Refined sugar is evil.
2) So is highly processed food.
3) Vegetables and fruits are good, as are pulses (beans) and whole grains.
4) Commercial fertilizers, monoculture and factory farms are terrible for the soil and water.

I think all of us would be better off if we ate lower on the food chain most of the time. But I am not convinced that vegan is best.

Agreed. As I mentioned in my first post - if we could all eat local, small-scale, it would be better for us and the environment. I try to eat local, unprocessed as much as possible. My partner is a hunter and fisherman, and we garden. Balance is everything. Elimination of entire food groups necessary for cellulaire development probably isn't.

[Iplawyer]

Since the argument seems to want to continue. I'm also going to try to hit this point by point, hopefully I won't miss any. And as you're asking for primary references:

1. Discussion as to whether high-fat diets associated with animal products are really the issue, or whether it is a matter of processed foods in general: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23497300 ; http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0368131964800417 ; http://www.naturalomega-3.com/PDfs/seal_oil/journal_Inuit_of_Nunavik-Cardiovascular_Disease_Research.pdf ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23902788

2. Discussion as to whether vegan/vegetarianism is deemed beneficial to performance and overall health: http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5057&context=smhpapers

3. Should infants be vegan/vegetarian: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/2544417 ; http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/51/2/202.short ; http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/510003 ; http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/508331 ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528709/

4. The fact that humans evolved into their present form in part due to the incorporation of animal products in their diet: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/204350 ; http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6505(1999)8:1%3C11::AID-EVAN6%3E3.0.CO;2-M/abstract;jsessionid=1EDA00AE30BDF77EA662AEDAB5D99825.f03t03

P.S. The reason I included an article about human teeth and the laughable "5% decrease in number of chews per year" is that someone previously mentioned that human dentition was not made for meat-eating. Which is not the case.

P.P.S. If we're going to insist on primary sources, which we should, than I am going to do the same. nutritionfacts.org / The China Study / TED talks / YouTube videos / Random "scientific" books and movies are not peer-reviewed sources. Books and movies with cherry-picked facts don't count. Peer-review, randomized control trial tested publications or no dice.

+ 1,000,000,000 -  Thanks Travel.  I don't care if people want to be vegan, vegetarian, or whatever.  What you put in your mouth is your business.  I don't think somebody on this forum should be giving medical advice to the rest of us like redpillgreen is.  It is simply dangerous, and especially since he/she is wrong.  And redpillgreen sources are just junk articles. 

[TravelJunkyQC]

Since the argument seems to want to continue. I'm also going to try to hit this point by point, hopefully I won't miss any. And as you're asking for primary references:

1. Discussion as to whether high-fat diets associated with animal products are really the issue, or whether it is a matter of processed foods in general: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23497300 ; http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0368131964800417 ; http://www.naturalomega-3.com/PDfs/seal_oil/journal_Inuit_of_Nunavik-Cardiovascular_Disease_Research.pdf ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23902788

2. Discussion as to whether vegan/vegetarianism is deemed beneficial to performance and overall health: http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5057&context=smhpapers

3. Should infants be vegan/vegetarian: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/2544417 ; http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/51/2/202.short ; http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/510003 ; http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/508331 ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2528709/

4. The fact that humans evolved into their present form in part due to the incorporation of animal products in their diet: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/204350 ; http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6505(1999)8:1%3C11::AID-EVAN6%3E3.0.CO;2-M/abstract;jsessionid=1EDA00AE30BDF77EA662AEDAB5D99825.f03t03

P.S. The reason I included an article about human teeth and the laughable "5% decrease in number of chews per year" is that someone previously mentioned that human dentition was not made for meat-eating. Which is not the case.

P.P.S. If we're going to insist on primary sources, which we should, than I am going to do the same. nutritionfacts.org / The China Study / TED talks / YouTube videos / Random "scientific" books and movies are not peer-reviewed sources. Books and movies with cherry-picked facts don't count. Peer-review, randomized control trial tested publications or no dice.

+ 1,000,000,000 -  Thanks Travel.  I don't care if people want to be vegan, vegetarian, or whatever.  What you put in your mouth is your business.  I don't think somebody on this forum should be giving medical advice to the rest of us like redpillgreen is.  It is simply dangerous, and especially since he/she is wrong.  And redpillgreen sources are just junk articles.

Agreed. Like I said, what a consenting, responsible adult does with his/her own body doesn't concern me. But it becomes dangerous when we're bombarded with these "alternative facts" that have nothing to do with actual scientific study and analysis. This is also partly personal for me; I'm an archaeogeneticist and bioanthropologist, and it insults me to my very core when people are way off the mark when using the "what humans were designed for" argument in a medical discussion.

[redpillgreen]

Should have included the disclaimer - not giving any specific or generic medical advice. Not a doctor. Just my consolidated opinions based on what I have learned so far, and links to good jumping-off points, for anyone who wants to start exploring more.

Appreciate the discussion guys! I'm not bagging on anyone here when I say Paleo people. Referring to the people that sell books or profit from it.

I'll do the play by play tomorrow, it's 2am here. Cheers!

[Iplawyer]

Should have included the disclaimer - not giving any specific or generic medical advice. Not a doctor. Just my consolidated opinions based on what I have learned so far, and links to good jumping-off points, for anyone who wants to start exploring more.

Appreciate the discussion guys! I'm not bagging on anyone here when I say Paleo people. Referring to the people that sell books or profit from it.

I'll do the play by play tomorrow, it's 2am here. Cheers!

But until this point you haven't couched anything you said as your opinion - you've stated it as fact.  And you've compared the opinions of those disagreeing with you to those that don't believe in climate change, etc. 

You have no idea what causes diabetes - yet you said it was a high fat diet. 

I really don't care what you eat and I think everyone should be on the diet they want or that their doctor tells them to be on. 

I simply think your arrogant, incorrect, and reckless with your "advice stated as facts" here.  You should STOP.  A person that has been told by their doctor to eat a high fat, very low carb diet should do exactly that. 

Your links are the same as links to junk science in other respects.  And they are no better or longer studied than Paleo.  But you insist, with no facts, that they are.  Just STOP it.  It is one thing to say what your opinions and beliefs are and to ask others what they believe.  It is quite a different thing to state it as fact and insist those of us that disagree are wrong and idiots.

[caseyzee]

Absolutely incorrect. The spreading of these ideas is the biggest problem with Paleo / low carb claims, and the main reason I got up on the soapbox here after MMM mentioned Paleo.
- Low carb diet means high fat diet. High fat diet leads to type 2 diabetes. Good complex carbs and staches are not the enemy. High fat is what gives you diabetes. And refined sugars are bad for a variety of reasons.
- Long term Paleo/keto diets are insidious because they decrease your apetite. You feel good with less calories and get the weight loss goals.

It is clear to me that you don't know how the endocrine system works, at all.  This information is patently wrong.  Please note that we are all individuals, some individuals can absolutely handle a high carb diet with no adverse affects.  Unfortunately, some people can't.  I am one of them.  If I did not maintain a LCHF diet, I would be firmly in diabetic territory. 

I don't care what diet a person follows, I'm not sure why you do?

[swick]

Mod Note: Okay folks, Step back, take a breather.  You are free to share your opinions and what has worked for you, but please try not to state anything as "fact" without providing source material.

Please keep in mind the forum rules and avoid being a jerk and making personal attacks. Keep the debate to the facts, provide your sources and keep your arguments towards the top of Graham's hierarchy of disagreement:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg

[GreenSheep]

Cool! Glad to hear it's working well for you! I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on how your diet choice relates to your financial choices / Mustachian practice. To me the parallels between "mainstream financial advice vs. Mustachians" and "mainstream dietary advice vs. plant based diets" are very striking. Would love to hear your thoughts.

The nutrition choices and the financial choices came about completely separate from each other in my case, but they are similar in the sense that they both go "against the grain" in terms of what most of the rest of modern American society does. Just like with Mustachianism, when my way of eating comes up (I am never the one to bring it up, but sometimes people notice and ask questions), I get the same responses. Most people think it's crazy and not possible. Some people are intrigued but don't think they could or should ever do it themselves. Some people think I'm a reckless moron. Some people eat the same way, or similarly, and have started doing it over the past few years, like me. Some people have been 100% plant-based for 50 years and just quietly go about their business.

What can I say? Just like putting all of my disposable income into VTSAX and planning for retirement in 3 years, it works for me. Like many people, I went through a brief period where I was so excited about each of these things (Mustachianism and plant-based eating) that I wanted to tell everyone who would listen. But people aren't interested, for the most part. So I stopped. Occasionally someone comes to me for financial or nutritional advice, and that feels good, but aside from that, I'm done.

[OurTown]

Now I know why the human race died out during the paleolithic period.  They ate too much paleo.

[redpillgreen]

Mod Note: Okay folks, Step back, take a breather.  You are free to share your opinions and what has worked for you, but please try not to state anything as "fact" without providing source material.

Please keep in mind the forum rules and avoid being a jerk and making personal attacks. Keep the debate to the facts, provide your sources and keep your arguments towards the top of Graham's hierarchy of disagreement:https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg

But the bottom is so much more entertaining..

Well noted and again apologies if my writing style misrepresented as facts what are actually my opinions. I am coming from a place of passion, conviction, and trying to save the world, which apparently caused me to gloss over some details. Mea culpa.

I will be more mindful of this in future posts and hope we can all do the same.

Travel, Iplawyer - I meant no personal attack against either of you. I still disagree with your conclusions and will do my best to provide relevant facts to help the other readers come to their own conclusion.

[redpillgreen]

Cool! Glad to hear it's working well for you! I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on how your diet choice relates to your financial choices / Mustachian practice. To me the parallels between "mainstream financial advice vs. Mustachians" and "mainstream dietary advice vs. plant based diets" are very striking. Would love to hear your thoughts.

The nutrition choices and the financial choices came about completely separate from each other in my case, but they are similar in the sense that they both go "against the grain" in terms of what most of the rest of modern American society does. Just like with Mustachianism, when my way of eating comes up (I am never the one to bring it up, but sometimes people notice and ask questions), I get the same responses. Most people think it's crazy and not possible. Some people are intrigued but don't think they could or should ever do it themselves. Some people think I'm a reckless moron. Some people eat the same way, or similarly, and have started doing it over the past few years, like me. Some people have been 100% plant-based for 50 years and just quietly go about their business.

What can I say? Just like putting all of my disposable income into VTSAX and planning for retirement in 3 years, it works for me. Like many people, I went through a brief period where I was so excited about each of these things (Mustachianism and plant-based eating) that I wanted to tell everyone who would listen. But people aren't interested, for the most part. So I stopped. Occasionally someone comes to me for financial or nutritional advice, and that feels good, but aside from that, I'm done.

Interesting perspective, thank you!

Like with many things, the real magic happens in the long boring slog of years of sustained action. 10 years to become an overnight success and all that jazz...

[redpillgreen]

Now I know why the human race died out during the paleolithic period.  They ate too much paleo.

Food for thought - is the best thing for the human race as a whole, also the best thing for every single individual (and vice versa)? I would argue the answer is inevitably "NO".

[inline five]

After lots of reading, research, first/second/third hand evidence, etc. I've concluded that 85%+ of ones longevity is due to genetics. There are some people that can eat McD's every day and smoke a pack a day and live to see 100 even if obese. Where there are many that eat "healthy", exercise, etc and die before they turn 60 with normal BMIs.

Just like the saying goes, moderation is key. My wife is a vegetarian but does eat some animal products like eggs occasionally. I recently lost around 50 lbs by for the most part moderating my diet off of almost all carbohydrates and turning more to eating veggies as sides (for example instead of french fries I'll have steamed green beans dipped in ketchup) and exercising. I feel better all around but I think that's because I now way 50 lbs less. I still eat meat but keep it to the lean stuff - turkey, chicken, fish, and maybe 3x a week at most. I weigh out what I eat and typically eat a 3-4 oz slab of chicken on my burgers, grilled on the George Foreman.

Just use common sense. Eat well so you feel better and can live a fuller life devoid of issues due to weight (bad knees, diabetes, etc). Don't do it to live longer because odds are it won't be a factor.
   
IMO.

[fuzzy math]

Vegetarians and paleo people are generally healthier for the same reason, they avoid the processed crap that invades most of the American diet.

I keep thinking WFPB diet was the WFP diet, which is Weston F Price - a major proponent of high fat animal based eating. I tend to subscribe to his theory much more. I was vegetarian for a few years, it worked for me. I have discovered as I age that sugar and starch disagree with me much more than fat and meat.

[use2betrix]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

If "carbs" put you at the risk of being a diebetic, then you obviously have medical issues. Complex carbohydrates in reasonable amounts have little to no negative impacts on your blood sugar and insulin levels. They create slow and steady rises and insulin releases.

Sugar and highly processed foods as such put people at risk for diabetes. The sudden blood sugar spike and need for insulin release, causes all sorts of issue over time.

If someone wants to say that unsweetened oatmeal or baby red potatoes put the general public at risk for diabetes, then they don't understand nutrition or the way the body works.

Granted - if you eat like garbage and full of crap for 20-30 years, you may have already wrecked your bodies endocrine system enough that those things could increase diabetes risks. Granted, it's not the potatoes that did that, it's the poor choices earlier in life, or a predisposed medical condition.

[Iplawyer]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

If "carbs" put you at the risk of being a diebetic, then you obviously have medical issues. Complex carbohydrates in reasonable amounts have little to no negative impacts on your blood sugar and insulin levels. They create slow and steady rises and insulin releases.

Sugar and highly processed foods as such put people at risk for diabetes. The sudden blood sugar spike and need for insulin release, causes all sorts of issue over time.

If someone wants to say that unsweetened oatmeal or baby red potatoes put the general public at risk for diabetes, then they don't understand nutrition or the way the body works.

Granted - if you eat like garbage and full of crap for 20-30 years, you may have already wrecked your bodies endocrine system enough that those things could increase diabetes risks. Granted, it's not the potatoes that did that, it's the poor choices earlier in life, or a predisposed medical condition.

You are plain wrong and clearly don't understand how the human body works and you should couch your OPINION as your OPINION not as a fact.  Period.  As the moderator pointed out earlier - you should not couch opinion as fact in this type of conversation.  You are not a doctor or trained in endocrinology.  Therefore you don't have a clue what you are talking about.  And please don't insinuate I have medical issues or screwed up in past years by eating junk.

[MightyAl]

Fat is not bad.  Ancel Keys and the lipid hypothesis are wrong.  Cholesterol does not cause heart disease.  Inflammation and oxidation cause heart disease.  Once you understand this all the other pieces fall into place.  Epidemiological studies are rubbish and should be taken with less then a grain of salt and a critical eye. 

A whole food diet is what everyone should strive for whether it leans towards meat or plants doesn't matter.  There is no data that says that a diet with meat in it increases mortality.

If you really want to blow your mind do some research on whole grains.  There is no benefit to whole grains over processed grains.  In fact whole grains cause mineral malabsorption.   

[pbkmaine]

OK, no potatoes. Don't know where I got that from.
Here is a link to the TED talk:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Paleolithic hominids were hunter-gatherers who lived until the age of 30 to 40. You'll excuse me if I don't base my medical and dietary choices on their "expertise".

Except for the age part I agree.

Oh, and they also exercised a hell of a lot more than we all did - if you really want to get into those details.

Another myth: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opinion/sunday/debunking-the-hunter-gatherer-workout.html

And by the way, I CAN tear the meat off a bone with my canines. Just watch me eat a T-bone rare :p

You got video?

People (really just North Americans) get upset when they think you are trying to take their meat away. But as a mustachian it's important to examine how you live your life and let go of things that don't bring value to your life. I believe that eating meat not only doesn't bring value but actively harms humans and the environment. Because so many people have challenged my assumptions on this forum and helped me grow as a person, I hope I can do the same for others.

Perhaps - but each person's value is their value not yours.  And you make all kinds of statements as if they are facts here.  I cannot eat carbs or I am at risk to be diabetic.  So your statement that there is nothing wrong with carbs is fine for you - but not for all.

If "carbs" put you at the risk of being a diebetic, then you obviously have medical issues. Complex carbohydrates in reasonable amounts have little to no negative impacts on your blood sugar and insulin levels. They create slow and steady rises and insulin releases.

Sugar and highly processed foods as such put people at risk for diabetes. The sudden blood sugar spike and need for insulin release, causes all sorts of issue over time.

If someone wants to say that unsweetened oatmeal or baby red potatoes put the general public at risk for diabetes, then they don't understand nutrition or the way the body works.

Granted - if you eat like garbage and full of crap for 20-30 years, you may have already wrecked your bodies endocrine system enough that those things could increase diabetes risks. Granted, it's not the potatoes that did that, it's the poor choices earlier in life, or a predisposed medical condition.

You are plain wrong and clearly don't understand how the human body works and you should couch your OPINION as your OPINION not as a fact.  Period.  As the moderator pointed out earlier - you should not couch opinion as fact in this type of conversation.  You are not a doctor or trained in endocrinology.  Therefore you don't have a clue what you are talking about.  And please don't insinuate I have medical issues or screwed up in past years by eating junk.

The moderator wanted people to stop being jerks.