Author Topic: good schools for kids, does it matter?  (Read 28792 times)

galliver

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2013, 12:08:33 PM »
Seems like the consensus is that people from good and great schools (by rankings or their own perception) think that the experience gave them something valuable and is worth it. People from terrible schools (again, by ranking or perception) seem to agree that their environment was not conducive to learning and school didn't do its job, even though they made it in the end. Those from the middle seem to largely credit parental involvement and personal motivation for their success, and be split on whether the school contributed or detracted from the experience, and whether a school with more options, resources, etc. would have been worth it. Does this sound about right?

The thing is, we can't really compare those experiences in any reasonable way, since we don't know how, for example Sol (not trying to pick on you, but your story sticks in my mind!) would have turned out in a school that already had a math team and BC calculus, vs how I would have turned out if my school didn't have a planetarium (I'm making fun of it! Although I did take the astronomy course and it was a lot of fun)...or more importantly AP calculus, physics, chemistry, computer science, etc. Would I have developed more drive to fight for these things or left school for community college if they weren't offered? Would I have convinced my parents to "homeschool" me (i.e. independent study)? It's all hypotheticals from here.

Mrs MM

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2013, 12:10:41 PM »
What do you want your kids to learn at this age?

Ultimately, that determined what school we sent our kid to. For us it was:

- diversity of kids/families
- community
- ability to bike/walk to school
- social interaction
- neighborhood school with kids and teachers that live in the same community
- great, motivated, friendly teachers

This will probably change as he gets older, but right now at the elementary school level, a school with high test scores is not our top priority. As he heads into high school, we might reconsider this with our son's input.

CommonCents

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2013, 12:18:43 PM »
Interestingly, I read an article on a study a little bit back which showed that a better elementary school was more important for performance than a better high school.  Perhaps a better school early on engages the student and gets them more interested in learning in general.  That said, I have not been able to find that article again, so I have no idea on controls, etc.  But it flies contrary to what a lot of people in my area do, which is more to a really good school for middle school or high school and figure it is less important for grade school.

Mrs MM

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2013, 12:25:08 PM »
Teachers make the biggest difference for kids and how much they enjoy school. You can have incredible teachers at shitty schools and shitty teachers at incredible schools.

Many of my teacher friends have told me exactly what school they would send their kids to and it's because of the teachers teaching there... interestingly, these schools often have lower test scores, perhaps because great teachers like a challenge? Not always the case, of course, but worth looking into.

Of course, this varies a lot across the country (and other countries) - surely there are schools that are terrible that should be avoided. But, simply looking at test scores is probably not the right way to choose a school.

Also, all kids are unique and one school may work better than another. I know a family who has 2 kids - one that thrives at a Montessori school and the second kid does much better at the local public school.

I also recently read some articles about certain charter schools that are so focused on test scores that they end up having a biased admission process (many disabled, special needs, and ESL kids are not admitted). This is a sad state of affairs.

Mrs MM

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2013, 12:29:54 PM »
Interestingly, I read an article on a study a little bit back which showed that a better elementary school was more important for performance than a better high school.  Perhaps a better school early on engages the student and gets them more interested in learning in general.  That said, I have not been able to find that article again, so I have no idea on controls, etc.  But it flies contrary to what a lot of people in my area do, which is more to a really good school for middle school or high school and figure it is less important for grade school.

Interesting! I'd be interested in that article, if you ever do find it. - thanks!

EMP

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2013, 12:32:26 PM »
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html


Kind of long, but something I will keep in mind when choosing schools.

avonlea

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2013, 02:07:20 PM »
I also recently read some articles about certain charter schools that are so focused on test scores that they end up having a biased admission process (many disabled, special needs, and ESL kids are not admitted). This is a sad state of affairs.

This unfortunately is true.  Usually, though, these are the charter schools that are owned by corporations like Charter School USA.  If you find a charter school that was started by local teachers with a vision, that is usually not the case.  30% of the kids at my daughter's school have special needs.  It's actually a bit of a magnet school for struggling students.

GuitarStv

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2013, 02:28:55 PM »
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html


Kind of long, but something I will keep in mind when choosing schools.

That is a great article, and really sums a huge amount of my experiences through school.

MrsPete

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2013, 07:11:09 AM »
Yes, the quality of the school does matter.  It isn't the only determining factor in how a child will turn out, but it is one factor. 

Do note that I teach high school, and I'm thinking of that age group more than elementary children. 

Also note that I'm talking about schools as if two types exist:  Wonderful, top-level schools with every benefit and supportive parents lined up out the door . . . and inner city schools that teach only remedial classes taught in classrooms with broken windows and no heat.  We tend to talk this way when we're discussing differences, but in reality the vast, vast majority of schools are in the middle.  If you're in a D-grade school and have a chance to move to an A-school, clearly it's in your child's best interest.  But most of us won't face that choice.  More of us would find ourselves living in a C-level school district and have the choice to move to a B-level school.  That's a harder choice, and I'd say that when the difference is likely to be small -- assuming you're  happy with where you live -- it's probably better to provide enrichment at home (which all good parents do anyway) rather than move to a slightly-better school. 

Anyway, does the quality of the school matter?  I say yes: 

Children are influenced by their peer group.  If your kid attends a school where the majority of the boys belt their pants below their buttocks and where the girls consider it acceptable to have a baby at 14, your kid will pick up some of these values.  I'd assume everyone on this site is raising their children in a more middle-class mode, but still, a kid who sees these behaviors around him will think, 'Okay, this is the world."  In contrast, a kid who attends a school where most of his peers are college-bound will benefit from a more positive group mentality. 

Likewise, a school that has a population of upper-level students will offer activities tailored to them: Debate team, Book club, Model UN, Science Club, etc. -- and they'll have a good turn-out for these activities.  In contrast, a low-level inner city school will offer English-as-a-second-language classes in the evenings.

The best teachers in a school system can choose to go where they want.  Okay, this isn't policy, but it's reality.  The best teachers will choose to work in schools with better working conditions, with students with whom they can make a difference. 

The best schools will offer a greater variety of AP classes and other higher-level options for your student.  Sure, you can take the AP test without having taken the class, but in most situations the student really does need the class to have a shot at passing.  Colleges have been saying forever that the #1 predictor of success in college is not GPA or SAT . . . it's the rigor of the high school courses the student chose.  So the student who takes AP math and makes a C is better prepared for college than the one who took only the minimal-level math and made an A.  Colleges look at both grades AND class selection. 

As for me, myself, I went to a country high school.  It was populated by farm kids, most of who were not going on to higher education.  Our graduating class was about 160, and only about 20 of us went on to college.  We had AP classes available to us, and we in that small group took every one of them together -- we were something of a school within a school.  But we had only one option for foreign language.  If we wanted something beyond Trig, we had to travel to the nearby community college -- which many people did.  The school was providing an excellent education for the majority of the students, but those of us who were genuinely academic and were college-bound didn't have so many options as our counterparts in neighboring cities.  As such, when I got to college I realized that I had been an A+ student in high school, had topped out my SATs and so forth . . . but initially I found college a pretty big "step up".  I love the area where I grew up, and I intend to retire to that same place, but we've chosen to raise our children in an area with a better school system.  Now that I have one in college, I can say that she graduated from high school better prepared than I did. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 07:19:58 AM by MrsPete »

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2013, 12:32:03 PM »
Thanks Mrs. Pete - great insight. I live in a very working class area. I agree with your thoughts on how peers will influence my daughter. In our circle there are a variety of ethnic, socio-economic and family types... Early on trying to figure out how to tell if the kids a peer I am comfortable with I came up with the formula that kids that had involved parents - who show up at school, at events, etc... were probably a good indicator that the parent was involved in the kids life - I've used that as a rough measuring stick and so far it's been pretty accurate. The nature of the school as a charter duel immersion language academy also plays a role - this is a public school - so no cost - but you do have to sign up and go through a lottery process to get in - so each parent had to make the choice and show some effort to get their kid in....

An interesting read on the test score debate is from another blog I read- the mother (a research scientist) came up with a formula that correlates english as a first language to the score of the school. Very much worth the read...

http://humofthecity.com/2012/03/02/san-francisco-destinations-rosa-parks-elementary-school/


avonlea

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2013, 11:01:18 AM »
Just wanted to say that charter schools are not public schools. They are free to parents, but are not part of your local public school system.

Charter schools are not part of a local school district, but they are public since they are funded by taxes.  Most receive less funding per pupil than district schools because they usually have less resources. Our school receives the same amount of state funding per pupil as other public schools, but receives no funds from the county/city.  The local tax base supports only the district's schools. If you break up moneys received per student, our charter school gets 76 cents  for every $1 that the district's students receive.  This is why our school has only two buses, why there is no playground (the kids walk to a nearby park), and why the school is more mindful of its spending than most. However, parents and teachers are happy with the flexibility allowed the school.  They don't mind the financial situation--they figure out a way to make things happen.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 12:24:42 PM by avonlea »

Mrs MM

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2013, 11:32:29 AM »
An interesting read on the test score debate is from another blog I read- the mother (a research scientist) came up with a formula that correlates english as a first language to the score of the school. Very much worth the read...

http://humofthecity.com/2012/03/02/san-francisco-destinations-rosa-parks-elementary-school/

This is excellent - thank you! This is exactly how I feel about our son's school.

Albert

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2013, 11:50:20 AM »
An interesting read on the test score debate is from another blog I read- the mother (a research scientist) came up with a formula that correlates english as a first language to the score of the school. Very much worth the read...

http://humofthecity.com/2012/03/02/san-francisco-destinations-rosa-parks-elementary-school/

I bet that's still the well known correlation with social class unless it could be shown that a significant portion of those non-Eglish speaking families are wealthy and well educated.

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2013, 01:21:51 PM »
It's a messy question. Definitions of "good" schools vary widely, depending on the country and the testing methods. I get the sense that "good school" is often realtor code for "wealthy-ish neighbourhood". And the gap between rich-people schools and poor-people schools also varies a fair whack depending on where you are (Iceland and Canada small gap, France and USA big gap, according to the OECD).

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/real-estate-agents-school-opinions-spark-firestorm/article14183094/

Firestorm ensued in Canada lately, over exactly that issue (realtors and schools).

RootofGood

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2013, 01:58:48 PM »
I think you should send kids to good schools if overall that is the best choice.  The decision of which school to send your kids is complex.  Costs, travel time and expense (bus? public transit? long car ride? quick stroll through your neighborhood with sidewalks?), how kids like yours perform at potential crappy schools. 

We had a choice of many different elementary schools, and decided to go with the objectively worst school available based on things like test scores, % of students in poverty, % limited English proficiency, and other demographics that point to a failing school.  What persuaded us to choose this failing school was the direction it was headed and the fact that it was in our neighborhood only a few blocks away. 

After we dug deep into the test statistics and controlled for variables like race, education of parents, economic status, and English proficiency, it appeared that kids like our kids tended to have passing test scores just like all the other similar kids in the whole county (90-95%).  Even though we were at the 145th worst school out of 146 elementary schools, kids with "good" backgrounds managed to succeed.  This fact led me to not rule out our convenient neighborhood elementary school. 

Benefits to being very close to the elementary school include more access to teachers and principals, easier volunteering opportunities, and huge built in social network in the neighborhood of the kids that go to school.  We live near a few teachers and know them a little more than just seeing them quarterly in parent teacher conferences.  Other kids walk to school and we have gotten to know many of the families. 

3 years after starting at this school, we are glad we chose the neighborhood school.  A new principal and almost all new staff have turned the school from the worst into a competitive school that turns away applicants.  Neighborhood kids are starting to return to school and newly enrolled kindergarteners are choosing our school. 
 
Our 2nd grader and 3rd grader are doing above average and freakin great, respectively.  There are some screw offs in their class but for the most part it is a mix of students that want to learn and do well and seem nice enough. 

I am glad we didn't abandon this school and choose one very distant from our house.  We wouldn't really be a part of the social fabric if we had to drive 30 minutes to volunteer or go to PTA meetings.  And our kids would be worn out from hour long bus rides instead of leisurely (and mustachian!) 10 minute walks or bike rides to school. 

We also enjoy the fact that our kids don't get the social pressure to have all kinds of fancy things that the rich kids have at more well to do schools. There isn't much keeping up with the Joneses. 

My advice would be to find a good enough school that is the best choice overall for your family.  Spending a hundred thousand or two on a nicer house in a nicer area just to get access to better schools when the alternatives are perfectly acceptable doesn't make sense to me. 

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2013, 11:05:26 PM »
I've been thinking about this a lot lately because three weeks ago I made the choice to put my kid in a school that (gasp!) I have to drive to. It's only 4 miles away but there is no safe biking route that I'm willing to take at this time with two kids in my trailer.
We put her in the lottery for the three-blocks-away academically super charter school and we visited the well-rated, two-blocks-away-from-home district school. She was waitlisted at the first and registered for the second.
She was freaking out about going. It was dirty, it was old and damp and dark and closed in (she has claustrophobia, mild, but she felt anxious in that school). The classrooms were covered in crap. I am a college-educated woman and I could not focus on anything in there. It was all letters and posters and weather stations and... junk. All over the walls. My kid was freaking out.

We visited the four-miles-away Montessori charter school and she was home. I could tell right away. The natural wood, the large windows, the serene walls with no decorations, she loved it. I think she will get a better foundation there because she feels comfortable there. I also happen to approve of the Montessori method. So all my plans for her to go to the nearby schools went out the door when I actually consulted her. Darn.

I still feel stupid about driving her to school every day, but I know I was right.

RootofGood

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2013, 06:50:46 AM »
I still feel stupid about driving her to school every day, but I know I was right.
At least the school is free and you aren't paying private school tuition!

blake201

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2013, 10:04:35 PM »
This is such a hard one! We live in NYC and are currently trying to decide how much this matters as we try to find the most affordable neighborhood possible that still meets reasonable standards of safety, schooling and the possibility to continue bike commuting. Yeah. (Or maybe we need to move to New Jersey or far into Queens or something.)

I tend to feel like the MOST important influence is what happens at home and on the weekend, but the truth is, I'm no science or math expert — my husband and I could teach our daughter literature, languages, visual arts, graphic design, filmmaking, photography, anthropology, sociology and history, but certain areas are rather beyond us.

My parents are both public school teachers and I went to a "crappy public high school" full of gang violence/stabbings/lack of supplies and still managed to get into an Ivy League... but I definitely had teacher influence. I had fantastic history and English teachers, so that's the direction I ended up going. I was interested in science but we didn't even have A SINGLE LAB class when I was taking science. Not ONE actual experiment—no budget to renovate the broken-down science lab! So I never took a science class again.

That said... going broke to get your kid into a super-special school? No. I remember once having a horrified argument with a friend who was in horrible debt (more than $75,000 in credit cards and a HELOC and underwater on his house) who told me he HAD to send his kid to private school because the local public schools didn't meet his standards.


galliver

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2013, 09:39:47 AM »
Read this yesterday and think it might be relevant to this discussion...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/10/the-case-against-high-school-sports/309447/

RootofGood

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Re: good schools for kids, does it matter?
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2013, 02:39:59 PM »
That said... going broke to get your kid into a super-special school? No. I remember once having a horrified argument with a friend who was in horrible debt (more than $75,000 in credit cards and a HELOC and underwater on his house) who told me he HAD to send his kid to private school because the local public schools didn't meet his standards.

I have always thought how much better off that kid would be if the parents stuck tens of thousands of dollars each year into an investment account and let it grow for 10-15 years.  Use it to pay for college, and turn over the rest to the kid at age 25 or 30 or so.  Sure the kid might be about 4% dumber upon graduating high school after having attended a crappy public school instead of a fancypants private school.  But the kid would have a paid in full college education and potentially a six figure balance remaining to kick off their adulthood in style (to start a biz or pay cash for a house for example).


 

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