Are my friends big spenders or am I too tight?

[SwordGuy]

Probably both.

Worrying about $0.75, being bothered about splitting the bill 4 ways, and letting your friend who makes the same or less than you pay for your drink is cheap.

Yep, some of that is being cheap.

I don't "split the bill equally" if I'm with people who drink like a fish, since I don't do that and the drinks cost a bundle.  I pay my way and I tip generously.

Instead, have a snack before you go out and then buy an inexpensive entree that you'll enjoy.   Drink way more water instead of  lots of liquor.

If asked, just say, "Hey, I really like your company, that's why I'm here!   I don't really care about where we are all that much.   And I'm trying to cut back on my food and alcohol intake."   

Then you're not attacking their choices.

I'm not much of an alcohol drinker.   When pushed by folks to have a beer, wine, or stronger drink (and I don't want one), I just say, "I just really LIKE Dr. Pepper, so I drink what I like.    Silly, I know, but there it is."   

[amberfocus]

I've been able to partially weasel out of this issue in the past by being a non-drinker. Thus, when the cocktail portion of the night comes up, even if I decide to stick around and hang out socially, there is zero expectation that I contribute to any group alcohol tab. Can you maybe tell your friends that you have decided to stop or cut down on drinking, say, for health reasons? (Although obviously this won't work if you actually want to drink.)

Another tactic that you can try is to run up a smaller bill at dinner, overpay for it, and let the group split the rest. So if everyone else spends $100 while you spend $40, but you chip in $50, you don't look cheap, you're not forced to massively subsidize everyone else, and you don't overcomplicate the situation by formally asking for separate checks.

[Zamboni]

As others have noted, most places will do separate checks if you just ask.

Therefore, not getting a separate check was your mistake. Once such a mistake is make, you should just cough up the full $70 and let the waitstaff have the little extra as a tip. No complaints. In fact, always toss in a dollar or two MORE than your share for the tip.

Tread carefully here. I worked with a guy who would refuse to drive when we went to group lunches and then remark "I just don't want the wear and tear on my car." If he had just kept quiet and not volunteered to drive, probably others would have said they could drive and no one would have ever noticed. Instead, he always made that type of remark, and it rubbed people the wrong way. Many people decided pretty quickly they didn't want to do anything with him because they felt he was self centered (which he was, because he never worried aloud about the wear and tear of the other person's car.) Another guy would always stiff the waitstaff on his share, leaving others to put in so they felt the tip was reasonable. Don't be these guy. It's the fastest offramp possible to having close friends.

As others have noted, organize cheaper outings, or invite people over to your home. Be generous sometimes: buy a round. Never complain about 75 cents. Never complain about the price of gasoline or uber or whatever. Tip generously. Go out once a week instead of twice, or once every couple of weeks, or even once a month and everyone will think you are part of the normal crew. But never ever ever complain about the prices. Never. You are in a social strata where you will just sound like a cheapskate, and it will piss people off if they perceive that you are shorting the serving staff.

[helloyou]

Thanks for all answers. A lot of good points.

I've always been tight and tips are included in the bills (12.5% is automatically added). So it's not like waiter didn't get their tip. It would be an additional extra... in my mind, whatever I can save... I save. $1 not spent is $1 saved... I reckon for many people they don't see it this way...

And yeah, I went out a bit too much for a pandemy time. It's because in the UK they had this "eat out to help out" scheme where food had £10 ($12) discount. But even doing it only once a month it still feel like a waste that I could save. But for now I spend this extra when I'm with these friends...

Probably best is to pretend I'm on diet and don't eat and drink lol. But then what's the point to go out!! lol

[Tass]

$1 not spent is $1 saved...

This is valid as long as you're legitimately "not spending" rather than just forcing someone else to pick up your $1 cost.

[moof]

Once you commit, roll with the crowd, don’t sweat the cost.  But next time know that you are signing up for that level of expense and decide to participate or not.

My household makes >200k, but I’d gulp at a $100 a head night out.  I personally would opt out.

The flip side is that having a fat wallet from all this frugality is like keeping dry powder, to be used both for FIRE, and social opportunities as needed.  When I do a spendypants trip like Disneyland I’ll plan for the total expense and just kind of cut loose.  I treat the planned costs as already spent money and turn off my frugality for a few days.

[helloyou]

Once you commit, roll with the crowd, don’t sweat the cost.  But next time know that you are signing up for that level of expense and decide to participate or not.

My household makes >200k, but I’d gulp at a $100 a head night out.  I personally would opt out.

The flip side is that having a fat wallet from all this frugality is like keeping dry powder, to be used both for FIRE, and social opportunities as needed.  When I do a spendypants trip like Disneyland I’ll plan for the total expense and just kind of cut loose.  I treat the planned costs as already spent money and turn off my frugality for a few days.

Yeah that's what I do as well... or at least as much as I can.

I remember I used to have an ex-gf who liked good food and going out to nice place. But she was on minimum wage... so I was paying most stuff. It was a massive hole in my wallet and I tried to handle it as much as I could... lol

But we ended up breaking up

[BTDretire]

If you’re in the US, 12.5% is not a big enough tip. They add the minimum to the check because you’re in a group but please tip over that or don’t go out.

ETA: sorry just saw you’re not in the US. Carry on!

When we had a business, not necessarily one that you might expect tips, I would be sometimes be offered a tip, usually from a young women, who I envisioned as being waitress.
 I could usually decline the tip without to much back and forth from the tipper. I just didn't feel right taking a tip from someone just getting started, knowing I had a nest egg I could easily retire on.

[Zamboni]

^I've had people refuse tips from me, lol. I must look poor. Okay, I definitely have a poor vibe sometimes, except when I intentionally don't.

OP, in the UK just make sure you are not quibbling over a pound. Also, you definitely don't have to go every time . . . sounds like your group has some spendypants members who definitely go out too much. Good job with the planning and self reflection, by the way. Next time you do elect to go, treat the lower paid co-worker to a round of drinks, saying "my turn!"

[herbgeek]

Maybe I'm just showing my age, but what ever happened to "come by my place on Friday.  I'll have a bunch of pizzas.  I'll have this and that beer and wine.  If you have a particular favorite beverage, feel free to bring it along"

[helloyou]

Maybe I'm just showing my age, but what ever happened to "come by my place on Friday.  I'll have a bunch of pizzas.  I'll have this and that beer and wine.  If you have a particular favorite beverage, feel free to bring it along"

That is great thing to do, and I invite my friends in whenever I can.

However in big city, we all live far from each other. So best is to meet in city central so time to get there is the same for everyone. There is also the novelty factor of going out. Seeing some fancy places, new menu, new venue, new cocktails, nice pictures and memories.

[julia]

Probably not the best thing to do if you're social and an extrovert but just say no and stop going out with them.
Whenever a 'friend' or acquaintance suggested grabbing lunch, I cringed because I thought why would I pay 15$ for a sandwich that I can make for 1$ at home. Years later as we all settled into adulthood, I only retained 2 friends which is fine by me. One of them is just as frugal, and the other is the complete opposite but accepts my ways so we spend a lot of time playing board games haha.

[YHD]

Not tight, rude.

You knew they were big spenders At dinner and yet you chose to go to the after party.  Then showed your annoyance at the expense which you could have predicted.  Your annoyance made someone who knows she makes less money than you so uncomfortable that she offered to pay.

On top of that you enjoyed the experience.  Frankly, I wouldn’t be asking you to join us for a free walk in the park let alone another social event that involves you fishing your wallet out of your pocket.

[Zikoris]

Not tight, rude.

You knew they were big spenders At dinner and yet you chose to go to the after party.  Then showed your annoyance at the expense which you could have predicted.  Your annoyance made someone who knows she makes less money than you so uncomfortable that she offered to pay.

On top of that you enjoyed the experience.  Frankly, I wouldn’t be asking you to join us for a free walk in the park let alone another social event that involves you fishing your wallet out of your pocket.

This is a good point. It would also make me feel pretty uncomfortable if I was doing an activity with a group and one person was acting weird about the price, assuming most people would have some idea of the cost ahead of time. I would totally be thinking shit, why did this person even come? I feel like once you're there you need to be committed to it at that point.

[aGracefulStomp]

Not tight, rude.

You knew they were big spenders At dinner and yet you chose to go to the after party.  Then showed your annoyance at the expense which you could have predicted.  Your annoyance made someone who knows she makes less money than you so uncomfortable that she offered to pay.

On top of that you enjoyed the experience.  Frankly, I wouldn’t be asking you to join us for a free walk in the park let alone another social event that involves you fishing your wallet out of your pocket.

This is a good point. It would also make me feel pretty uncomfortable if I was doing an activity with a group and one person was acting weird about the price, assuming most people would have some idea of the cost ahead of time. I would totally be thinking shit, why did this person even come? I feel like once you're there you need to be committed to it at that point.

Yeah this is my view as well. I would consider apologizing, otherwise I can't imagine you're at the top of the invite list for future nights (expensive night or otherwise!).

I use to react like you did when a night turned out to be more expensive then anticipated, but kept my panicking internal. I would then just leave early and let everyone get on with their great night out. I'm not going to be that guy, making everyone else uncomfortable because my budget is different to theirs.

In effect, the issue isn't whether your budget is more 'right' then their budgets. The issue is that you agreed to do something with your friends that you didn't actually want to do, and then made everyone uncomfortable.

Going forward, limit yourself to every month or so. Depending on how close you are to the friends, you could suggest cheaper activities. Invite your friends over to your place, day at the beach, camping trip etc

[Dancin'Dog]

Or you could avoid the spendy outings all together and reconnect with them all at your early retirement party, 10-15 years before theirs.  ;)

[Arbitrage]

We have a group of close friends we hang out with frequently, all in our early 40s and a pair of kids.  One couple makes similar money to us, one couple used to be of similar income but now is filthy rich, and a fourth family has a single mom who makes less.  We do occasionally vacation together and go out to dinner and other events, but mostly we hang out at each others' houses for dinner/drinks/conversation while the kids play. 

Because the dinners out are rare, I don't sweat them.  They're in the budget, and we split the meal evenly.  However, there were a couple of times they wanted to go out to a super-fancy prix fixe meal (probably would've ended up ~$250/head), and we've begged off every time they want to do something like that.  Just not worth it to us, and we'd resent the cost. 

[KBCB]

If this is the dynamic of the friend circle I think it might be difficult to change it without possibly sounding cheap. You need to decide what is important. If you like these friends and want to continue going out when them decided how often you want to go out and just enjoy the time and think less about the money. If you just mentally can't do it without being so miserable a different friend offered to pay for you then maybe just stay home.

I agree with other posters that that is a pretty good salary, I don't make that much. But this post is less about how much you make and more about your comfort level with spending money. You need to decide what is more important. You could always suggest different types of hang outs with these friends and see if they bite.

[lutorm]

Plus, I don't understand the American practice of one bill per table.  Here, everyone is billed separately.

It's more work for the employee/server to keep things separate and put the orders/bills into the computer separately.  I've encountered push-back on multiple occasions when asking for a split bill.  Even when you mention that ahead of time.  I can understand it being an issue if you only mention it at the end of the meal...

More work, but so is taking the orders and bringing the food but those aren't optional. It's just a cultural expectation thing.

My favorite splitting-the-bill memories was when we were a fairly large (I'd say many 6-7) party at some place in Munich. When it was time to pay the bill, the waitress, without even asking, starts going around to the table like "ok, so you had the 2 weissbiers and the schweinhaxen, right? That'll be 26 euros." From memory and doing the math in her head.  That's customer service. And you don't even have to tip for it...

[mathlete]

"$100k/year. So not great wage but not that bad." is the new version of a person talking about how they grew up poor and then describing living in a house with two working parents.

[honeybbq]

I just want to say right now, I am EXTREMELY jealous you can go out and have dinner and drinks with your friends and have fun.

I miss my friends. I miss going out to eat and ordering overpriced drinks. Stupid covid.

[marblejane]

This happens to me a lot, living in the Bay Area. The easiest way that I've found to handle it, is to decide how often you want to have a speedy dinner out with friends. Anything outside of that, I will lament that I cannot make it in time for dinner, but would love to meet up for drinks after. Then I eat dinner at home, meet them at the bar after, and it's very easy to just order whatever drink is in my budget.

[I'm a red panda]

One way to save a lot of money is to stop drinking.  People often think you are insane if you don't drink, so you need a "I'm doing Whole 30" or something like that excuse. In that income bracket, weird diets are socially acceptable.  Then ask to just pay your share of the bill, rather than split evenly, if you aren't drinking.

If you are eating/drinking similarly, just split the bill. Don't nickel and dime who had an entree that cost $4 more than someone else.  It's silly.

Then, start thinking of ways to get together without going out like this.  Have a board game night, plan a hike, go kayaking, have a firepit.

Do dinner once a month, not twice a week.


I live in an area where people can basically live normal lives right now. But it's irresponsible to do so, Covid rates are skyrocketing due to the wine and dine set.

[helloyou]

This happens to me a lot, living in the Bay Area. The easiest way that I've found to handle it, is to decide how often you want to have a speedy dinner out with friends. Anything outside of that, I will lament that I cannot make it in time for dinner, but would love to meet up for drinks after. Then I eat dinner at home, meet them at the bar after, and it's very easy to just order whatever drink is in my budget.

That's a nice tip. I'll see if I can re-use it ahah. May work better if you have a family though. As a single person it's a bit odd to say I have to make it in time for diner

[helloyou]

"$100k/year. So not great wage but not that bad." is the new version of a person talking about how they grew up poor and then describing living in a house with two working parents.

compared to many earner here, I feel it wasn't good. But yeah it could be high compared to the average population. Although now I'm not in contract anymore due to COVID so very annoying!

[Tass]

"$100k/year. So not great wage but not that bad." is the new version of a person talking about how they grew up poor and then describing living in a house with two working parents.

compared to many earner here, I feel it wasn't good.

This claim made me curious. A quick search brought up this forum poll, though admittedly it is a few years old: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-income-level-and-savings-rate/250/

That poll suggests 57% of respondents make $100k or more. So... you make more than almost half of mustachians. :) It's not exceptional in this very exceptional environment, but I'd say it merits more than "not that bad".

[helloyou]

This claim made me curious. A quick search brought up this forum poll, though admittedly it is a few years old: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-income-level-and-savings-rate/250/

That poll suggests 57% of respondents make $100k or more. So... you make more than almost half of mustachians. :) It's not exceptional in this very exceptional environment, but I'd say it merits more than "not that bad".

It made me curious as well and I see the following:
<$75k = 24%
$75-100k= 19% - my income bracket when I worked
>$100k = 57%

So really, I think the correct statement is that I make more than 24% of the mustachians. Other either make similar income level (19%) or more (57%)

Made me wonder as well if some FIRED answered the poll, and that their lower income comes from rental or other small gig.


Compared to the average mustachian, its definitely not that great

[slappy]

This claim made me curious. A quick search brought up this forum poll, though admittedly it is a few years old: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-income-level-and-savings-rate/250/

That poll suggests 57% of respondents make $100k or more. So... you make more than almost half of mustachians. :) It's not exceptional in this very exceptional environment, but I'd say it merits more than "not that bad".

It made me curious as well and I see the following:
<$75k = 24%
$75-100k= 19% - my income bracket when I worked
>$100k = 57%

So really, I think the correct statement is that I make more than 24% of the mustachians. Other either make similar income level (19%) or more (57%)

Made me wonder as well if some FIRED answered the poll, and that their lower income comes from rental or other small gig.


Compared to the average mustachian, its definitely not that great

Why do you feel the need to compare yourself to others? Comparing to other mustachians, comparing to your friends. Why not just worry about yourself?

[wageslave23]

This claim made me curious. A quick search brought up this forum poll, though admittedly it is a few years old: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-income-level-and-savings-rate/250/

That poll suggests 57% of respondents make $100k or more. So... you make more than almost half of mustachians. :) It's not exceptional in this very exceptional environment, but I'd say it merits more than "not that bad".

It made me curious as well and I see the following:
<$75k = 24%
$75-100k= 19% - my income bracket when I worked
>$100k = 57%

So really, I think the correct statement is that I make more than 24% of the mustachians. Other either make similar income level (19%) or more (57%)

Made me wonder as well if some FIRED answered the poll, and that their lower income comes from rental or other small gig.


Compared to the average mustachian, its definitely not that great

Why do you feel the need to compare yourself to others? Comparing to other mustachians, comparing to your friends. Why not just worry about yourself?

It seems like other posters are more obsessed with where OP's earnings are compared to others.  OP just provided as a point of reference in order to give context.  I'm guessing that people who earn less got all bent out of shape when OP stated that $100k is good but not great in OP's area.

[slappy]

This claim made me curious. A quick search brought up this forum poll, though admittedly it is a few years old: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-your-income-level-and-savings-rate/250/

That poll suggests 57% of respondents make $100k or more. So... you make more than almost half of mustachians. :) It's not exceptional in this very exceptional environment, but I'd say it merits more than "not that bad".

It made me curious as well and I see the following:
<$75k = 24%
$75-100k= 19% - my income bracket when I worked
>$100k = 57%

So really, I think the correct statement is that I make more than 24% of the mustachians. Other either make similar income level (19%) or more (57%)

Made me wonder as well if some FIRED answered the poll, and that their lower income comes from rental or other small gig.


Compared to the average mustachian, its definitely not that great

Why do you feel the need to compare yourself to others? Comparing to other mustachians, comparing to your friends. Why not just worry about yourself?

It seems like other posters are more obsessed with where OP's earnings are compared to others.  OP just provided as a point of reference in order to give context.  I'm guessing that people who earn less got all bent out of shape when OP stated that $100k is good but not great in OP's area.

Right, but this whole post is about comparing OP spending to the friends' spending. It's as if OP wants us all to jump on the bandwagon of saying the friends are all crazy big spenders. And the OP has also had other posts about trying to convert the friends to mustachian. So, in general, it seems OP worries too much about what the friends are doing.

[helloyou]

Right, but this whole post is about comparing OP spending to the friends' spending. It's as if OP wants us all to jump on the bandwagon of saying the friends are all crazy big spenders. And the OP has also had other posts about trying to convert the friends to mustachian. So, in general, it seems OP worries too much about what the friends are doing.

My original post was more about social awkwardness between difference of lifestyle. I don't really mind people spending load of their money, but when I'm hanging out with them it also drags me in.

I was looking for different point of view from fellow frugals like me!

[charis]

Right, but this whole post is about comparing OP spending to the friends' spending. It's as if OP wants us all to jump on the bandwagon of saying the friends are all crazy big spenders. And the OP has also had other posts about trying to convert the friends to mustachian. So, in general, it seems OP worries too much about what the friends are doing.

My original post was more about social awkwardness between difference of lifestyle. I don't really mind people spending load of their money, but when I'm hanging out with them it also drags me in.

I was looking for different point of view from fellow frugals like me!

You haven't commented much on what seems like the general consensus in the responses- don't participate in group meals or pricey activities unless you can actually enjoy yourself. That means budgeting for/not worrying about the cost, or bowing out.

You don't need a family to make an excuse to meet up later for a drink. Anything will do (I have dinner plans (even if it's just with yourself)/ a date/ game night/ improv class/ bowling league/ book club/ dog sitting/ running group/ volunteering/ babysitting/ tutoring side gig, etc.)

[helloyou]

You haven't commented much on what seems like the general consensus in the responses- don't participate in group meals or pricey activities unless you can actually enjoy yourself. That means budgeting for/not worrying about the cost, or bowing out.

You don't need a family to make an excuse to meet up later for a drink. Anything will do (I have dinner plans (even if it's just with yourself)/ a date/ game night/ improv class/ bowling league/ book club/ dog sitting/ running group/ volunteering/ babysitting/ tutoring side gig, etc.)

For sure I enjoyed the diner! just not the bill part! lol

But yeah I agree with the group consensus to avoid it. I just need to get excuses ready up my sleeves.

Probably easier now that I'm jobless, I can use this excuse to be frugal

[Retire-Canada]

I just need to get excuses ready up my sleeves.

You are an adult. You don't need an excuse to not do something you don't want to do.

[helloyou]

You are an adult. You don't need an excuse to not do something you don't want to do.

I agree with you but people can easily be offended or judge me as a cheap guy. And with potential future work colleagues it's good to be seen in good light, especially if they may be the ones referring me for the next gig!

I probably wouldn't care much if it was a bunch of close friends OR strangers, and would likely be direct saying I just don't want to spend that amount.

[mathlete]

OP how old are you if you don't mind me asking?

If you're relatively young, your friends might eventually grow out of wanting to drop $100 on a night out twice a week and this problem could sort itself out.

[helloyou]

OP how old are you if you don't mind me asking?

If you're relatively young, your friends might eventually grow out of wanting to drop $100 on a night out twice a week and this problem could sort itself out.

I'm 37. I think thats the age when we're at our earning peak and spend the most tbh. I didn't splash that amount in my 20s because most of us didn't earn enough for that

[Tass]

Compared to the average mustachian, its definitely not that great

Forgive me for bristling. I've been on this forum 3 years and I currently make my lifetime high income of $36k (with a 50% savings rate). From my point of view, I must insist that your wage is great.

But I recognize that I am dragging this thread off topic now, so I apologize. :)

[helloyou]

Compared to the average mustachian, its definitely not that great

Forgive me for bristling. I've been on this forum 3 years and I currently make my lifetime high income of $36k (with a 50% savings rate). From my point of view, I must insist that your wage is great.

But I recognize that I am dragging this thread off topic now, so I apologize. :)

When I was 27 i was earning less than that so indeed it is great :)

[Bloop Bloop]

"$100k/year. So not great wage but not that bad." is the new version of a person talking about how they grew up poor and then describing living in a house with two working parents.

Most people here subscribe to the notion of not comparing yourself to others' incomes, but the corollary of that is that you also don't need to have your qualitative view of your own income determined by others' incomes. For someone with certain traits or who works full-time hours $100k may be qualitatively "not great and not that bad" and that's quite a valid view, too. For example a surgeon who went to school for 10 years and accrued $250k in debt would no doubt think that $100k is not a great income. It's all relative.

Also, you can have two working parents but still be considered a poor family in absolute terms, especially if both parents are not working full-time.

[Chris@TTL]

"$100k/year. So not great wage but not that bad." is the new version of a person talking about how they grew up poor and then describing living in a house with two working parents.

Most people here subscribe to the notion of not comparing yourself to others' incomes, but the corollary of that is that you also don't need to have your qualitative view of your own income determined by others' incomes. For someone with certain traits or who works full-time hours $100k may be qualitatively "not great and not that bad" and that's quite a valid view, too. For example a surgeon who went to school for 10 years and accrued $250k in debt would no doubt think that $100k is not a great income. It's all relative.

Also, you can have two working parents but still be considered a poor family in absolute terms, especially if both parents are not working full-time.

You're right about most of us not wanting to compare ourselves to others, and I think there's a good reason for it:

What you compare is what you see, those around you spend conspicuously on things like what @helloyou said -- going out, or: luxuries, fancy cars, big houses, etc.

That spending is visible.

Meanwhile, Mustachians spend on what is less visible: owning their future time. It's freedom for your future self.

Ultimately, what can steal satisfaction and happiness from folks who make $36K like @Tass is negative comparison, and that applies to our MD who cut their earnings from $250K to $100, too. I wrote a bunch about this (and how comparison is the thief of joy), but what it comes down to is controlling expectations by making healthy comparisons.

Marketing, ads, and social media showing you how you "should" live? Unhealthy.
Following a path revealed by someone ahead of you, their hardships included, to achieve your own goals? Healthy, positive comparison.

One day, we should seek to be that guide for those coming up behind us, too.