Go Curry Cracker (Jeremy and Winnie) updates?

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Hello MMM forum!  This is a hail mary, but I was wondering if anyone knows anything about why GoCurryCracker stopped posting abruptly after the last post (Getting Lucky) on July 28th?  They usually post at least monthly and this is also typically a hot time for blog income as well as their year end tax planning.

I can speculate, but maybe someone knows them in person or is in contact with them behind the scenes?  Fingers crossed they are just busy in the same sense than Pete is and have put the blog on the back burner...

[blahme]

Looks like their twitter account is still active.

https://x.com/GoCurryCracker/status/1728699376636440888?s=20

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Looks like their twitter account is still active.

https://x.com/GoCurryCracker/status/1728699376636440888?s=20

Thanks for that, haven't been on Twitter in ages!  No real explanation for their blog, but at least they are still alive and kickin (but not skiing LOL)...

[Catbert]

I was wondering the same thing.  Glad to know it's apparently not a problem. 

The Frugalwoods has similarly gone silent.  I think that may have been because of a number of negative (but not nasty) comments about her blog re-do which focuses on "have a personal consultation with me for $$$".

[englishteacheralex]

I've been wondering about Frugalwoods, too.

[the lorax]

I was wondering the same thing.  Glad to know it's apparently not a problem. 

The Frugalwoods has similarly gone silent.  I think that may have been because of a number of negative (but not nasty) comments about her blog re-do which focuses on "have a personal consultation with me for $$$".

I used to enjoy her blog - it's quite different from MMM but she writes well. It's an interesting move for her as she's really gone all in on the pay-for-advice and, I"m not American, but it seems like it's very expensive to me.

[wageslave23]

I just looked up her financial advice services.  Holy crap that looks like a load of sh#t, for a lot of money.  Does she even have financial training? I know she used to work for a non profit and knows how to buy a used couch and make home made pie for cheap but retirement plan?!  I'm a CPA with a series 65 license who is an investment advisor representative but even I wouldn't be comfortable holding myself out as a financial advisor especially at those prices.  Hopefully people don't think that because she's good at writing about mending clothes and making casseroles that she's qualified to financial advise.

[englishteacheralex]

I saw her financial advice prices as more of a situation of really not needing the money, but having an answer to people who are looking for financial planning from the author of a popular blog.

I can't remember which financial blogger it was who had a similar philosophy--they didn't have any desire to help people with financial planning, but for a fairly absurd hourly rate they would do it. Maybe JL Collins?

Liz Frugalwoods is famous; I would guess she gets massive amounts of emails for people looking for free advice, and she's demonstrated being willing to do a lot of legwork on researching people's specific situations (that's my take after reading her many reader case studies) and she doesn't want too much work. Voila: super high prices.

The one thing that refutes this theory is the tone of the blog re-design. It does make it seem like the whole thing is now about her financial services--like she's drumming up more business, but at prices that suggest she actually doesn't really want too much business.

[torso2500]

Liz from Frugalwoods does not have any regulated credentials as fas as I know.

I'd believe it was simply a price put to high demand for a famous blogger's advice if the service wasn't pushed so much around the time it was announced.

IMO Frugalwoods won the game a while ago (some argue that they've never been completely honest with how far ahead the were from the start)...perhaps the motivation to sustain the blog just isn't there anymore.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...
I can't remember which financial blogger it was who had a similar philosophy--they didn't have any desire to help people with financial planning, but for a fairly absurd hourly rate they would do it. Maybe JL Collins?
...

Not sure if Justin from RootOfGood is who you are thinking of, but he also offers non-credentialed FIRE-y advice for $200/hr.  One commenter on his latest post asked, since he hasn't done any advising in months, if he'd be willing to be more flexible and it sounds like he might consider it...

[VanillaGorilla]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

[Dicey]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

+1

[spartana]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

I believe Mr. Frugalwoos continued to work a very high earning job until last year or the year before - 8 or so years after Mrs. Frugalwoods retired and they moved Vermont.

[VanillaGorilla]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

I believe Mr. Frugalwoos continued to work a very high earning job until last year or the year before - 8 or so years after Mrs. Frugalwoods retired and they moved Vermont.

Right, exactly. And I believe his final annual income was about 10% higher than my current income. Which is substantially less than many of my friends and colleagues.

Since when do mustachians shame people for high incomes? That's part of the MMM philosophy. Make as much as you can until you have enough. Then do whatever you like.

[Metalcat]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

I have a friend who moved a free online community to a paid version specifically because she couldn't handle the aggression and backlash of interacting with the public.

The nice thing about only providing a paid online service is that it naturally selects for the people who respect you enough to pay you.

As for why people were upset with her, it wasn't anything to do with her being too wealthy, it had to do with her being misleading. I don't remember the details because it was a long time ago, but I remember feeling rather mislead by the image she portrayed of their income before it came out how much they actually made.

Now, since this community is filled with high income folks, none of us take any issue with them making good incomes, but it's kind of sketchy to seem to purposefully paint a picture of modest income when you're actually making hundreds of thousands. Most people were shocked to find out that their "middle class" non-profit incomes were that high. Also, didn't one of them continue working remotely, continuing to make a 6 figure income well after people thought they "retired?" Or am I remembering that wrong?

[spartana]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

I believe Mr. Frugalwoos continued to work a very high earning job until last year or the year before - 8 or so years after Mrs. Frugalwoods retired and they moved Vermont.

Right, exactly. And I believe his final annual income was about 10% higher than my current income. Which is substantially less than many of my friends and colleagues.

Since when do mustachians shame people for high incomes? That's part of the MMM philosophy. Make as much as you can until you have enough. Then do whatever you like.

Not shaming or judging just passing info along that I thought you might not be aware of.

[spartana]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

I have a friend who moved a free online community to a paid version specifically because she couldn't handle the aggression and backlash of interacting with the public.

The nice thing about only providing a paid online service is that it naturally selects for the people who respect you enough to pay you.

As for why people were upset with her, it wasn't anything to do with her being too wealthy, it had to do with her being misleading. I don't remember the details because it was a long time ago, but I remember feeling rather mislead by the image she portrayed of their income before it came out how much they actually made.

Now, since this community is filled with high income folks, none of us take any issue with them making good incomes, but it's kind of sketchy to seem to purposefully paint a picture of modest income when you're actually making hundreds of thousands. Most people were shocked to find out that their "middle class" non-profit incomes were that high. Also, didn't one of them continue working remotely, continuing to make a 6 figure income well after people thought they "retired?" Or am I remembering that wrong?

You're remembering right on both count. It started when her book.came out and there was a couple of extremely long threads here about it - both about their non-disclosure of their high incomes to get to.FIRE and the hubby's continued working full time. I believe she started the blog around 2014 or 2015 and he quit his job in 2021 or 2022. Many people felt mislead by her claim of FIREing based on frugality without mentioning their easy path to save so much fast on high incomes. I don't fare myself but I think if you are the author of a blog and a book that info should be known.

[Captain Cactus]

I have previously written about my dislike for the Frugalwoods and I always look forward to any opportunity to crab about them.  Bottom line?  FIRE pornography.  Readers out there dreaming the dream and see the folksy Frugalwoods as a relatable role model.  By presenting themselves to the world as relatable folksy types then the readers continue to read and fantasize about one day firing to their own Vermont homestead.

The fee for consultation?  “The People” want permission from someone to pursue their dreams.  Who better to give you permission to fire than your blog hero?

[firestarter2018]

I didn't care so much about Frugalwoods misrepresenting their income, because despite making a ton they were legitimately frugal (I think they spent ~$30-35K after taking into account their rental income?).  One of the things I've liked about a lot of the personal finance blogs is the message that you don't need expert advice to manage your finances -- you can learn all the basics by studying a few books and websites. So in that sense, and coming from a blog focused on self-reliance and frugality, Liz charging up to $5,000 for financial advice seems like a strange pivot.  Then again, many CPAs, CFPs and similar credentialed folks have no clue about FIRE and would probably stare back at you blankly if you wanted them to run the numbers on Roth conversions vs. 72t withdrawals for your portfolio, so maybe it does make sense for the big-name FIRE bloggers to offer such a service.

[GilesMM]

Frugalwoods wants $1,500 for a 90 minute chat?  $1000/hour for her tips on making soup at home?  What Frugal person would pay that?

[Fomerly known as something]

I was wondering the same thing.  Glad to know it's apparently not a problem. 

The Frugalwoods has similarly gone silent.  I think that may have been because of a number of negative (but not nasty) comments about her blog re-do which focuses on "have a personal consultation with me for $$$".

I used to enjoy her blog - it's quite different from MMM but she writes well. It's an interesting move for her as she's really gone all in on the pay-for-advice and, I"m not American, but it seems like it's very expensive to me.

It’s more than my actual financial advisor charges me.

[406MtnFire]

Supply and demand. Entrepreneurship can be lucrative. If I paid someone $2500 to give me advice on how to best DIY renovate my first rental or why to not pick junior mining stocks in college, that would have earned me well over 100% ROI in the first year and saved 250? hours of weekend work.

I've thought about how I can help out people in my old position. Am I going to take $20 calls from New investors? Not for a second. The juice has to be worth the squeeze. It also weeds out the tire kickers.

I'll pay anyone $2500 to give me advice to start a real estate consulting business or how to start an online product business. Not a joke. If effective, I should plan to 10-100X that investment within 1-2 years. Just my thought.

[Dicey]

I've followed FW loosely for years. I wondered when she started offering her services if it was even legal. Why require all those pesky tests and licensing fees if anyone can do it?

[Metalcat]

I've followed FW loosely for years. I wondered when she started offering her services if it was even legal. Why require all those pesky tests and licensing fees if anyone can do it?

As someone who has taken those courses and pesky tests to be an FA, none of them cover anything about frugality, budgeting, etc. It's mostly about selling mutual funds and tax strategies.

From what I recall, she's never written about investing or taxes, her stuff has been mostly lifestyle.

But fuuuuck, $1500 for 90 minutes to talk about lifestyle adjustments that aren't exactly reinventing the wheel is batshit crazy.

[Captain Cactus]

I've followed FW loosely for years. I wondered when she started offering her services if it was even legal. Why require all those pesky tests and licensing fees if anyone can do it?

As someone who has taken those courses and pesky tests to be an FA, none of them cover anything about frugality, budgeting, etc. It's mostly about selling mutual funds and tax strategies.

From what I recall, she's never written about investing or taxes, her stuff has been mostly lifestyle.

But fuuuuck, $1500 for 90 minutes to talk about lifestyle adjustments that aren't exactly reinventing the wheel is batshit crazy.

Again, it’s seeking approval to make a change they know they need to make and know they can already implement on their own.  It almost feels like paying for. Gym membership after the December holidays.  And, perhaps, is there an element of “paying to meet your hero” going on here?

[slappy]

Maybe she is charging $1500 because she doesn't really want to do it and she knows that price will deter most people?

[slappy]

I'm always a little flummoxed at the vitriol found here aimed at the Frugalwoods blog. As far as I can tell after many years of reading her blog, they started young and broke, diligently increased income and decreased expenses, invested very intelligently in both equities and real estate, moved to their dream home, love it, and quit their corporate jobs before they were 40.

This is literally the dream that MMM sells. They're one of the best known true FIRE success stories. No living out of a suitcase without so much as a pet to your name, living off rice and beans, massive inheritances, or sad divorce stories. Not yet, anyway.

Can't really blame her for offering consulting services either. To quote the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free".

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

[VanillaGorilla]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

[Dicey]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

I know you say that it is only your opinion, but IMO I think it's easier to be frugal for Mustachians when you can experience the fruits of stashing much faster.  When I was just getting started, I budgeted hardcore in order to free up $2000/mo to put in savings and investments.  Then I extrapolated that out for 20 years, including some raises and investment returns.  This spreadsheet and the first million endpoint kept me motivated through all the ups and downs.

I think if I could only have saved $200/mo, I would have been less motivated and possibly even given up during the tech bubble collapse (which happened about 4 years in to my journey)...

[Metalcat]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

And this is a very valid conversation that could have been had. However, it wouldn't have appealed to as many people, which is probably why she chose the approach she did, and hence why people feel misled.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

I don't get the controversy that some people see with the Frugalwoods couple. They were both very successful in their respective careers, chose an anti-consumerist lifestyle to save a boatload of money in a short amount of time, and "retired" before they were 40. I think that's a story worth telling.

A lot of the "it was easier for them because they made a lot of $'s" or they were somehow they were "not being 100% transparent with how much they were making" rhetoric is just jealousy and excuses to make someone else feel better about the choices they make in their own lives.

The Frugalwood's story is attractive because they chose the road less traveled and shows what's still possible if you make a whole lot of good decisions and have a little luck on your side.

[FIPurpose]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

Many years ago now, but my recollection was that the husband was making over 300k a year. It was a luxury lifestyle blog to larp as a homesteader pretending to be a FIRE/frugality blog.

Basically everyone reading the blog/book would assume that the husband was maybe making in the 100-200k range still working, but was actually making 2-3x that. It just hits different when you find out that someone who presented themselves as middle class was actually continuing to bring in upper class income, made giant money on their MA houses by buying at the right time. They should be easily sitting on 5+MM right now based on their numbers.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

Many years ago now, but my recollection was that the husband was making over 300k a year. It was a luxury lifestyle blog to larp as a homesteader pretending to be a FIRE/frugality blog.

Basically everyone reading the blog/book would assume that the husband was maybe making in the 100-200k range still working, but was actually making 2-3x that. It just hits different when you find out that someone who presented themselves as middle class was actually continuing to bring in upper class income, made giant money on their MA houses by buying at the right time. They should be easily sitting on 5+MM right now based on their numbers.

In what universe is their blog a "luxury lifestyle blog"? Also in what way did they present themselves as middle class, or any other class for that matter? Most all of her content is about living a simple, frugal life in a rural setting. I don't think the fact that he made $300k a year is relevant, or somehow that disqualifies them from the "FIRE club" vs if he only made $100k.

Also the fact that they're sitting on $5M (if true) vs "only $1.5-$2M" is not relevant. What matters is they have enough and can live life on their terms. Isn't that what MMM did back in the day that inspired everyone on this blog to change their lives? I don't get it.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I don't get the controversy that some people see with the Frugalwoods couple. They were both very successful in their respective careers, chose an anti-consumerist lifestyle to save a boatload of money in a short amount of time, and "retired" before they were 40. I think that's a story worth telling.
...

Going off topic here, but I view homesteading as being consumerist, just in a different way.  Living a dense urban housing lifestyle is generally lighter on the planet and wallet than a small family on a giant farm in a rural area with modern conveniences.  I don't read the blog, but they never seemed to lack for good internet, reliable water and electricity through the winter, etc.

[Captain Cactus]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

Many years ago now, but my recollection was that the husband was making over 300k a year. It was a luxury lifestyle blog to larp as a homesteader pretending to be a FIRE/frugality blog.

Basically everyone reading the blog/book would assume that the husband was maybe making in the 100-200k range still working, but was actually making 2-3x that. It just hits different when you find out that someone who presented themselves as middle class was actually continuing to bring in upper class income, made giant money on their MA houses by buying at the right time. They should be easily sitting on 5+MM right now based on their numbers.

Exactly.  Dishonest.  It feels offensive when professional income people dress like working class people (hipsters).  My grandmother who was raised as legit poor, was offended by affluent people dressing up in a working class outfit.  Felt like they were appropriating a working man’s badge of honor or something along those lines.  So like all the Frugalwoods folksy farm photos and the husband’s stupid beard give me the impression they’re rich people dressing up like farmers without the hard scrabble struggle that traditional New England farmers actually felt.

Am I jealous of the FW lifestyle? Absolutely.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

I don't get the controversy that some people see with the Frugalwoods couple. They were both very successful in their respective careers, chose an anti-consumerist lifestyle to save a boatload of money in a short amount of time, and "retired" before they were 40. I think that's a story worth telling.
...

Going off topic here, but I view homesteading as being consumerist, just in a different way.  Living a dense urban housing lifestyle is generally lighter on the planet and wallet than a small family on a giant farm in a rural area with modern conveniences.  I don't read the blog, but they never seemed to lack for good internet, reliable water and electricity through the winter, etc.

We have a different understanding of what consumerism means I guess. I use the word to describe all kinds of "keeping up the the jones' behavior"... constant upgrades to housing, vehicles, clothing, vacations etc. Not ... growing your own food, splitting your own firewood, solar panels, community, etc.

[Bateaux]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

Many years ago now, but my recollection was that the husband was making over 300k a year. It was a luxury lifestyle blog to larp as a homesteader pretending to be a FIRE/frugality blog.

Basically everyone reading the blog/book would assume that the husband was maybe making in the 100-200k range still working, but was actually making 2-3x that. It just hits different when you find out that someone who presented themselves as middle class was actually continuing to bring in upper class income, made giant money on their MA houses by buying at the right time. They should be easily sitting on 5+MM right now based on their numbers.

Exactly.  Dishonest.  It feels offensive when professional income people dress like working class people (hipsters).  My grandmother who was raised as legit poor, was offended by affluent people dressing up in a working class outfit.  Felt like they were appropriating a working man’s badge of honor or something along those lines.  So like all the Frugalwoods folksy farm photos and the husband’s stupid beard give me the impression they’re rich people dressing up like farmers without the hard scrabble struggle that traditional New England farmers actually felt.

Am I jealous of the FW lifestyle? Absolutely.

I grew up farming. Couldn't wait to get away from that and get a real job. I don't even have a garden these days. Farming is work. It's healthy for you, but real work with lots of risks and stress. We raised strawberries. You worked them year round. After picking season ended your started growing next year's plants. They propagate with runners. You replant the runners once grown by hand. Summers you plant legumes in the soil to enrich nitrogen. You worry about too much rain and the rot it brings. Too little rain and having to irrigate. Irrigation is expensive and there is scarcity of water. You worry about freezes and hail storms. Farming isn't always the romantic reality portrayed online and TV.

[FIPurpose]

In what universe is their blog a "luxury lifestyle blog"? Also in what way did they present themselves as middle class, or any other class for that matter? Most all of her content is about living a simple, frugal life in a rural setting. I don't think the fact that he made $300k a year is relevant, or somehow that disqualifies them from the "FIRE club" vs if he only made $100k.

Also the fact that they're sitting on $5M (if true) vs "only $1.5-$2M" is not relevant. What matters is they have enough and can live life on their terms. Isn't that what MMM did back in the day that inspired everyone on this blog to change their lives? I don't get it.

MMM was always very open about how much money both he and his wife made. And even when the blog started making tons of money, he was pretty open about that too.

It gives a perspective to readers about how easily they can recreate the experience. The point of FIRE blogs are generally "I did it. Here's how I did it so that you can do it too". Pete has been very open that he was able to achieve FIRE in 10 years because both he and his wife had well paying SE jobs in the 100-200k range. He writes some general guidelines on the strategy and speaks realistically about how different income levels may have drastically longer timelines.

FW's blog on the other hand tried not to present this information instead staying abstract enough to not talk about their own numbers. And I believe it's on purpose. She knows that presenting the real numbers upfront would be an immediate turn off to a number of readers. But also it also opposes the narrative of the blog. They reached FIRE because they made butt loads of money and were very lucky on their RE choices, not because they were frugal. They could've easily double or tripled their spending and still reached FIRE in the same amount of time. And for people looking to achieve that lifestyle that is a huge piece of information.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I grew up farming. Couldn't wait to get away from that and get a real job. I don't even have a garden these days. Farming is work. It's healthy for you, but real work with lots of risks and stress. We raised strawberries. You worked them year round. After picking season ended your started growing next year's plants. They propagate with runners. You replant the runners once grown by hand. Summers you plant legumes in the soil to enrich nitrogen. You worry about too much rain and the rot it brings. Too little rain and having to irrigate. Irrigation is expensive and there is scarcity of water. You worry about freezes and hail storms. Farming isn't always the romantic reality portrayed online and TV.

Yeah, there's a big difference between a gentleman's farm and actual farming!  Just like 'Our Flag Means Death' shows how different being a gentleman pirate is from actually living by piracy.

[spartana]

In what universe is their blog a "luxury lifestyle blog"? Also in what way did they present themselves as middle class, or any other class for that matter? Most all of her content is about living a simple, frugal life in a rural setting. I don't think the fact that he made $300k a year is relevant, or somehow that disqualifies them from the "FIRE club" vs if he only made $100k.

Also the fact that they're sitting on $5M (if true) vs "only $1.5-$2M" is not relevant. What matters is they have enough and can live life on their terms. Isn't that what MMM did back in the day that inspired everyone on this blog to change their lives? I don't get it.

MMM was always very open about how much money both he and his wife made. And even when the blog started making tons of money, he was pretty open about that too.

It gives a perspective to readers about how easily they can recreate the experience. The point of FIRE blogs are generally "I did it. Here's how I did it so that you can do it too". Pete has been very open that he was able to achieve FIRE in 10 years because both he and his wife had well paying SE jobs in the 100-200k range. He writes some general guidelines on the strategy and speaks realistically about how different income levels may have drastically longer timelines.

FW's blog on the other hand tried not to present this information instead staying abstract enough to not talk about their own numbers. And I believe it's on purpose. She knows that presenting the real numbers upfront would be an immediate turn off to a number of readers. But also it also opposes the narrative of the blog. They reached FIRE because they made butt loads of money and were very lucky on their RE choices, not because they were frugal. They could've easily double or tripled their spending and still reached FIRE in the same amount of time. And for people looking to achieve that lifestyle that is a huge piece of information.

And even many here are unhappy with MMM's failure to account for all his spending but at least he was very open about HOW, and how much money he had, to achieve FIRE which enabled him to quit his big boy job. That's important info to disclose if you are presenting yourself as a FIRE blogger or author.

Frugalwoods, especially in their earlier blog and in the book, glossed over all that. The title of the book was something like "Financial Independence through Simple Living" and while that's accurate, as you pointed out they earned enough that they could have FIREd in most any situation (if not over spending) and didn't have to make any frugal choices because they earned a butt load of money! Darning socks by candle light didn't get them to FI, earning big salaries and spending/saving wisely did. 

Does that info matter? To me it would.  A lower income earner (say $50k) who is saving 50% of their earning to get to FIRE is going to make some big consumer and lifestyle sacrifices compared to the high earner who's earning $300k and saving 50%. Living off $150k every year verses $25k is a big lifestyle difference

[Metalcat]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

Many years ago now, but my recollection was that the husband was making over 300k a year. It was a luxury lifestyle blog to larp as a homesteader pretending to be a FIRE/frugality blog.

Basically everyone reading the blog/book would assume that the husband was maybe making in the 100-200k range still working, but was actually making 2-3x that. It just hits different when you find out that someone who presented themselves as middle class was actually continuing to bring in upper class income, made giant money on their MA houses by buying at the right time. They should be easily sitting on 5+MM right now based on their numbers.

In what universe is their blog a "luxury lifestyle blog"? Also in what way did they present themselves as middle class, or any other class for that matter? Most all of her content is about living a simple, frugal life in a rural setting. I don't think the fact that he made $300k a year is relevant, or somehow that disqualifies them from the "FIRE club" vs if he only made $100k.

Also the fact that they're sitting on $5M (if true) vs "only $1.5-$2M" is not relevant. What matters is they have enough and can live life on their terms. Isn't that what MMM did back in the day that inspired everyone on this blog to change their lives? I don't get it.

I looked it up because I had forgotten the details, but she never shared numbers and very specifically referred to them as having "normal middle class incomes" working for non-profits, and that they weren't able to retire because of making "bankers salaries."

Except, they were making bankers salaries and her husband didn't retire, he just worked from home continuing to rake in a massive salary.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of the details of their finances, but she was pretty clearly trying to hide the facts of their financial circumstances, and that is why everyone felt manipulated.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

I guess I still found them relatable even if they were making good money towards the end of their careers. We made similar money and I told precisely nobody because it breeds resentment.

Everyone wishes you well until you're doing better than they are. Then they bring out the pitchforks. I wouldn't broadcast my net worth and income either if I was a public figure and wanted to seem relatable.

Haters gonna hate I guess...

[Midwest_Handlebar]

I guess I still found them relatable even if they were making good money towards the end of their careers. We made similar money and I told precisely nobody because it breeds resentment.

Everyone wishes you well until you're doing better than they are. Then they bring out the pitchforks. I wouldn't broadcast my net worth and income either if I was a public figure and wanted to seem relatable.

Haters gonna hate I guess...

Did you even read the other comments? They deliberately misled. It's one thing to be "a random person" who doesn't share their income. It's another thing to be a public role model who claims one thing, when another thing is true.

Indeed I did, just didn't agree with them. I don't agree that they misled, just omitted their income and net worth so people wouldn't immediately dismiss them for being "privileged". They started their blog when they were making far less money and were closer to the middle class narrative. Their income grew over time and they could have retired much sooner than they did. That's my "hot take" on it at least.

I spent some time rereading their blog. They are pretty transparent with their savings rate over time and show their monthly budget as well. If you can do basic math you'll be able to figure out that they're making good money. She actually states that her husband's job "paid extremely well".

"If we’d had lower incomes, we wouldn’t have been able to save nearly this much. We hit our financial independence number a few years later, but made the decision for Mr. FW to continue working because he enjoyed his job well enough, it paid extremely well and he was able to work remotely from our homestead in Vermont. We also wanted to pad that FI number because more is always better."

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

Savings rate article in 2014: https://www.frugalwoods.com/2014/04/10/how-we-save-65-annually/

Typical month of spending in 2014: https://www.frugalwoods.com/2014/08/04/july-2014-expenditures/

She did these types of posts for YEARS....

If you can't do the math and figure out generally what they were making back then I don't know what to tell you.

[simonsez]

I guess I still found them relatable even if they were making good money towards the end of their careers. We made similar money and I told precisely nobody because it breeds resentment.

Everyone wishes you well until you're doing better than they are. Then they bring out the pitchforks. I wouldn't broadcast my net worth and income either if I was a public figure and wanted to seem relatable.

Haters gonna hate I guess...

I agree with that if you frame everything in terms of the almighty $.

Long-term health, happiness, relationships, knowledge, wisdom, culture, self-actualization, etc. are simply way more important than money to some people, presuming some level of comfort/safety is established.  Used to be a decent amount of literature that after 75k income, the $ had no (or even negative) correlation with happiness.  And that was for wasteful average Americans!  Not sure what that would be with inflation now.  So, who cares if someone makes more than you if your own needs are being met and you're happy and able to pursue what interests you, ya know?  At that point you don't even frame "success" as how much you make in a year or what your overall pecuniary wealth is.  I take the resentment to mean that many people are struggling with the more basic foundations (and thus, view more $ as the way to climb out of whatever hole they feel stuck in) and that sucks. 

Of course, I'm someone who disagrees with the premise that "more is better" and don't understand the desire to be in the limelight and have people pick apart the life that I publicly present for many reasons, so there's that!

[JupiterGreen]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

Many years ago now, but my recollection was that the husband was making over 300k a year. It was a luxury lifestyle blog to larp as a homesteader pretending to be a FIRE/frugality blog.

Basically everyone reading the blog/book would assume that the husband was maybe making in the 100-200k range still working, but was actually making 2-3x that. It just hits different when you find out that someone who presented themselves as middle class was actually continuing to bring in upper class income, made giant money on their MA houses by buying at the right time. They should be easily sitting on 5+MM right now based on their numbers.

Exactly.  Dishonest.  It feels offensive when professional income people dress like working class people (hipsters).  My grandmother who was raised as legit poor, was offended by affluent people dressing up in a working class outfit.  Felt like they were appropriating a working man’s badge of honor or something along those lines.  So like all the Frugalwoods folksy farm photos and the husband’s stupid beard give me the impression they’re rich people dressing up like farmers without the hard scrabble struggle that traditional New England farmers actually felt.

Am I jealous of the FW lifestyle? Absolutely.

I have a different take: they are just millennials. It was a millennial fashion and design thing to go all folksy and bearded back to the earth retro. And I have to agree with @Midwest_Handlebar on them in general. They made good choices, bought in Cambridge, saved a ton of money. What if he was making 150k and they both made 75k on side gigs? Would the gate keepers allow that? I am out of the loop on the controversy, so I may be reading this whole thing wrong but it sounds like people made assumptions about them, kind of like how passive aggressive people will get mad at you for not doing the thing they never told you to do. Maybe the Fruglewoods just didn't feel comfortable sharing their income, but still wanted to share their frugal lifestyle to inspire others.

I'm not going to lie, I did not like the blog (too much like a Mommy instagram blog for me) and it was clear to me that it was "internet polished" (like so many blogs are because blogs and the internet are not real life). But I see nothing wrong with how the Fruglewoods got to FIRE. They were frugal, good for them. And good for Liz if she can get 1k for consulting. It's not for us to say that it won't help someone. Some people need to spend money to change. Or regret being duped out of money to learn. Either way, it's nice work if you can get it.

[wageslave23]

I guess I still found them relatable even if they were making good money towards the end of their careers. We made similar money and I told precisely nobody because it breeds resentment.

Everyone wishes you well until you're doing better than they are. Then they bring out the pitchforks. I wouldn't broadcast my net worth and income either if I was a public figure and wanted to seem relatable.

Haters gonna hate I guess...

Did you even read the other comments? They deliberately misled. It's one thing to be "a random person" who doesn't share their income. It's another thing to be a public role model who claims one thing, when another thing is true.

Indeed I did, just didn't agree with them. I don't agree that they misled, just omitted their income and net worth so people wouldn't immediately dismiss them for being "privileged". They started their blog when they were making far less money and were closer to the middle class narrative. Their income grew over time and they could have retired much sooner than they did. That's my "hot take" on it at least.

I spent some time rereading their blog. They are pretty transparent with their savings rate over time and show their monthly budget as well. If you can do basic math you'll be able to figure out that they're making good money. She actually states that her husband's job "paid extremely well".

"If we’d had lower incomes, we wouldn’t have been able to save nearly this much. We hit our financial independence number a few years later, but made the decision for Mr. FW to continue working because he enjoyed his job well enough, it paid extremely well and he was able to work remotely from our homestead in Vermont. We also wanted to pad that FI number because more is always better."

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

Savings rate article in 2014: https://www.frugalwoods.com/2014/04/10/how-we-save-65-annually/

Typical month of spending in 2014: https://www.frugalwoods.com/2014/08/04/july-2014-expenditures/

She did these types of posts for YEARS....

If you can't do the math and figure out generally what they were making back then I don't know what to tell you.

You still don't understand that saying you earned "normal middle class salaries" when you make $300k is flat out lying? If you don't understand that, not much point in continuing this conversation.

[Midwest_Handlebar]

Context matters. Can you point to when and where they said that? Also Boston metro "middle class" looks far different than rural Oklahoma "middle class". Hell, nobody in this country can agree what the definition of middle class is... The vast majority of the population identifies as being in the middle class which objectively doesn't make sense.

The average household income of Cambridge Mass is $154,448 per: https://www.point2homes.com/US/Neighborhood/MA/Cambridge-Demographics.html. So they made twice the average household income at the end of their careers per the $300k you referenced. What number do you think should be the cutoff for the middle class definition? Gatekeepers and manufactured outrage.... How is this serving you?

Again, references to their income are on their blog if you're not too lazy to look for it. I don't get the hate and reactions like this are exactly why I don't share our finances with anyone in real life.

[mistymoney]

Did they both quit corporate jobs before 40? I have no idea how old they are, but I know Mr. FW continued his job remotely after they moved to VT. It wasn't exactly a secret, but certainly wasn't something they put any focus on. It seemed like they wanted people to think they had both retired. In reality, they were both kind of working, since she had the blog.

https://www.frugalwoods.com/2023/04/07/reflecting-on-nine-years-of-frugalwoods/

16. We moved to Vermont full-time in May 2016 and began renting out our Cambridge house in June 2016.

17. We continued to save at a pretty high rate–typically saving all of my husband’s salary and living off of my income combined with the rental income.

19. In the spring of 2021, we made the decision for Mr. FW to retire from his job as a software engineer after being with the same company for 14 years.

Seems pretty transparent.

What was obfuscated was that he was a very high wage earner. Many people responded with, "Sure, it's easy when you make that kind of money." IMO, it's even harder to be frugal when you really don't have to be.

I find it the exact opposite, personally. When I've got extra cash hanging around and coming in every payday, I can think about things I might like, put it off, invest or save the money and love seeing the savings/investment grow....

Then - something changes - and suddenly monthly cashflow is stiffled, making bills is tough and I need to watch income and outgo very closely, implement auterity/rice and beans......and this big well of longing for new this or new that and upgrade this is overwhelming. Took me a few decades to figure this out about myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if others experienced it too.

When I can buy 3 out of 10 things I can happily buy nothing, putting things off indefinitely in some cases. When I can afford 0 out of 10 things, I am a ball of desperate wanting and trying wildly to find some loophole to purchase one of them.

[the lorax]

I liked the FW blog - I liked that she published case studies from a diverse range of people and I think the blog has a different target than the MMM/ERE blogs but that's not a bad thing. I never read the book so I'm assuming that's where a lot of the controversy must stem from because the blog was pretty consistent on it being about being mindful of consumption and having a plan to meet your goals. The piece on post-natal depression was excellent and she actually skewers some of those pre-conceptions about going back to the land in some of her writing too.
I don't begrudge them trying to monetize, plenty of FIRE bloggers do that, I'm just surprised at the big shift in her site from being focussed on the blog to pushing the financial advice side, especially given the high rates/lack of credentials.