Author Topic: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)  (Read 5854 times)

powersuitrecall

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« on: November 13, 2014, 07:13:29 AM »
It’s a luxury.  Every Saturday, I receive the Globe & Mail early in the morning.  I enjoy it from the perspective of keeping my finger on the pulse of MSM, as otherwise I wouldn't keep up (no TV, no commercial radio etc.).  I mostly read the business section and particularly enjoy the “Financial Facelift” column, where an expert financial adviser dissects the finances of readers.

I couldn't help saying "What the actual fuck!" when I read last week's instance:
http://www.globeadvisor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/gam/20141108/RBGIFACELIFT

Here's the summary (Canadian prices here folks):

Quote
The people: Johanna, 27, and Jack, 29 .

The problem: Can they afford to buy a house now ($600K - the current price of a Toronto Suburb starter home***), or should they pay off their debts?

Monthly net income: $8,665

Assets: Cash in bank $5,000; stocks $500; his RRSP $16,000.  Total: $21,500

Monthly disbursements: Rent $1,500; other housing $70; transportation $480; grocery store $600; clothing $420; line of credit $200; car loan $500; OSAP loans $435; gifts, charitable $120; vacation, travel $300; drinks, dining, entertainment $700; grooming $70; clubs $50; golf $150; sports, hobbies, subscriptions $50; miscellaneous $225; dentists, drugstore, $40; telecom, TV, Internet $200; RRSP $215; pension plans $1,150; professional association $115. Total: $7,590 .

Liabilities: His student loan $20,000; her student loan $14,500; her student line of credit $10,000; car loan $19,500. Total: $64,000

The plan: Pay off the student loans and the car loan, then save as much as possible to RRSPs to take advantage of the federal Home Buyers' Plan. Have at least a 10-per-cent down payment.

The payoff: A more secure footing with less risk of being house poor.

This isn't incorrect advice, but holy crap what a feeble attempt at getting this couple on the right track.  Did they miss the part where they are spending most of their money on insane lifestyle costs?!?!  Did they really condone raiding their RRSPs to buy a house and take on a $540K mortgage?!?!

So fellow Mustacians, other than directing them to consume everything MMM has written, can you give this freshly shaven couple some better advice?

*** EDIT - as sleepyguy states below, $540K is the average price of a Toronto Suburb home price
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 08:38:55 AM by gashford »

BPA

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 07:20:26 AM »
I took advantage of the HBP.  You pay it back over 15 years and has been very manageable for me.

In fact, I will be retired by the timeline to pay it back is over and thus will not wind up paying back part of the loan to myself.  It will be taxed at a very low rate because my income will be a lower one.

powersuitrecall

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 07:39:17 AM »
I took advantage of the HBP.  You pay it back over 15 years and has been very manageable for me.

In fact, I will be retired by the timeline to pay it back is over and thus will not wind up paying back part of the loan to myself.  It will be taxed at a very low rate because my income will be a lower one.

But, according to this article, almost half of Canadians are not following through (2011 tax data):

source: http://www.canadianmortgagetrends.com/canadian_mortgage_trends/2013/02/disappointing-new-stats-on-the-rrsp-home-buyers-plan.html

Quote
We’ve long operated under the assumption (based on past StatsCan research and CRA data) that 25-35% of people don’t make the annual repayments required by the plan. It turns out those numbers are a bit shy.

CRA told us last Wednesday that almost one-half of HBP participants (47%) “paid less than the full required repayment amount in tax year 2011.” (2011 is the latest data available.2)

I don't really want to derail this into a HBP conversation.  I agree that when used responsibly, it can be a useful tool.  Heck, I used it for a couple of years too (and then quickly paid it back as soon as I could to take advantage of tax free RRSP growth).

This couple has a great opportunity in the form of high cash flow to get ahead. Really quickly.

tstache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 07:39:54 AM »
Whoa.  They need a lifestyle kick in the nuts, not face slap.  Wow. 

n_bear

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 03:14:45 PM »
$420 each month on clothing?!?  You know you can wear each outfit more than once, right?

chicagomeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1196
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 03:52:20 PM »
What on earth is a student line of credit and how did she get one for 10 grand?!? And am I the only one who is skeptical with these things that they actually know where their money is going every month?

powersuitrecall

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 06:20:58 PM »

And am I the only one who is skeptical with these things that they actually know where their money is going every month?

Yep.  They have $225 allocated to "miscellaneous" when I can't think of one thing that isn't covered by the other categories.

It's also unnerving that they would take out a bug car loan when being in so much student debt.

What I find the most troubling is the weak guidance.  take this nugget (from the linked article):

Quote
Even though Johanna and Jack are striving to pay down their student loans, they could still contribute at least $50 each to a registered retirement savings plan every payday. That way, they could draw on this money later under the federal government's Home Buyers' Plan for a down payment. They are allowed to borrow $25,000 each, for a total of $50,000.

$50 each per pay into RRSPs?  Are you kidding me?  Nice goal setting there.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20798
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 06:51:44 AM »
They are married with big student debt - why are they spending all this money on fun?

Other thoughts - Toronto has good public transportation, so why have a car at all?  If they want to drive to their home town on weekends, they are old enough to rent a car with no problem.  If they have Airmiles or Aeroplan points they can have "free" car rentals.

RRSP - the article mentions government pensions if they stay in their present jobs - so they may well not have much RRSP room, most pension room would be taken up by work pensions.  But if they don't have much pension contribution room, they could be contributing to TFSAs instead.  If they start them now, they each have $31,000 contribution room accumulated, plus another $5,500 for 2015. If they maxed them out they would have $73,000 next year for a down payment - keep going, and remember that money coming out of a TFSA is not taxed (coming out of an RRSP it is taxed as income), they could have a good down payment a few years down the road.  But don't buy in Toronto unless you know you are staying, the market does go down as well as up.

Clothes - if they just got these jobs, I can understand that - almost all my first paycheque from my first job went to clothes.  Mainly because as a grad student in Biology all I had were lab-worthy clothes (that means if they got stained/spilled on it didn't matter), nothing nice enough for work. 

My advice would have been - make sure your apartment is in a good commuting location (no mention in the article where the apartment is or where their jobs are).  Sell the car and pay off the car loan.  Stop the fancy entertaining and other budget bleeds.  Pay down the student debt fast (the advisor did look at it being paid down in 2 1/2 years).  Re house down payment, you can also use TFSA money, and the payback rules are better.  Too bad the government killed the separate RHOSP (Registered Home Ownership Savings Plan) years ago, it was how we saved our down payment separate from pension savings.   And don't think 10% down payment for a house (advisor recommendation), get at least 20%.  CMHC and the banks have totally different rules for over and under 20%.  And for that clothes budget, shop classic, things that will look good at work for a long time, shop thrift stores in wealthy areas (cast-offs will be great).  Ditch the clubs, and not only do they save money on that entertainment budget, they won't need the fancy clothes either. Same with the golf, it is super easy to spend a lot more than green fees (new driver, new putter, new glove, new shoes, all the little things that make the game better - and add up).

My advice does not include "live like you are still a student" because it looks like they spent while they were students.  Although $45,000 in student debt for two graduates seems like a lot, if they went to grad school in disciplines that don't have stipends, it would be reasonable.  If that is for B.A.s or B.Sc.s, it is a chunk.

Monthly disbursements: Rent $1,500; other housing $70; transportation $480; grocery store $600; clothing $420; line of credit $200; car loan $500; OSAP loans $435; gifts, charitable $120; vacation, travel $300; drinks, dining, entertainment $700; grooming $70; clubs $50; golf $150; sports, hobbies, subscriptions $50; miscellaneous $225; dentists, drugstore, $40; telecom, TV, Internet $200; RRSP $215; pension plans $1,150; professional association $115. Total: $7,590 .

powersuitrecall

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2014, 08:13:02 AM »
These are all really good observations, RetiredAt63.

The prevailing attitude at my Gov't workplace is that you just have to make it to retirement age (55, 60 or even 65) and the pension plan will take care of you.  Very few people save outside of this.  Perhaps that is what's happening here, therefore they feel they can spend every cent they make.  The advice given by the advisor seems to support this.  They are being led to home ownership, but nothing beyond that.

Additionally, they are in for a rude surprise if they do purchase a home for $600K.  Even with the responsible 20% downpayment ($120K), they will be left with a ~$2600 monthly (assuming 30 years @ 3% and $7K/year property taxes). They won't be able to handle that with their current spending.  Never mind the other things that home ownership and life might bring: maintenance, renos, caring for children, job loss, etc.

sleepyguy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 669
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2014, 08:23:11 AM »
I haven't fully read yet but I'll defend something first... $540k is pretty average house in Toronto.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17582
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2014, 08:27:17 AM »
They don't have a debt problem, they have a spending problem.
Their debts are relatively small.  Their income is large (but so is their spending).

$1,300 for "food & drinks" ($600 for groceries + $700 for going out)
$810 for "moving your ass from point A to point B" ($330 for travel plus $480 for 'daily transportation)
$200 for "being connected" (internet & phone)
$530 for "looking good" (clothes, grooming, etc)

wow.  Each of those could be cut in half, giving them $1,420 extra/month and they'd still be living living large.

powersuitrecall

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2014, 08:35:31 AM »
I haven't fully read yet but I'll defend something first... $540k is pretty average house in Toronto.

You're probably right.  Sorry - I hear horror stories (and perhaps read Garth Turner too much) and forget that suburbs are a much different RE story than downtown Toronto.  I'll edit that.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20798
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2014, 04:20:27 PM »
Yes, that is why I didn't attack the house plan, just suggested the larger down payment - house prices in Toronto are insane.  However, if there is any possibility that they might move back to their home town, they should not buy a house in Toronto - too much lost in the sale costs.

@Nereo - I too saw lots of fat to trim - but unfortunately Toronto is probably the most spendy city in Canada (unless it is Vancouver?).  Doesn't guarantee quality of life though.  I like visiting Toronto, but when I don't want the country life any more, Toronto is not the city I will move to  ;-).

I haven't fully read yet but I'll defend something first... $540k is pretty average house in Toronto.

You're probably right.  Sorry - I hear horror stories (and perhaps read Garth Turner too much) and forget that suburbs are a much different RE story than downtown Toronto.  I'll edit that.

Jon_Snow

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4458
  • Location: An Island in the Salish Sea (or Baja)
  • I am no man’s chair.
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2014, 04:43:18 PM »
I've been reading these Globe and Mail features for years. Makes me feel even better about the financial path my wife and I have walked. Most of these articles make me shudder.

Goldielocks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7062
  • Location: BC
Re: Give this article the Mustacian treatment! (Financial Facelift)
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2014, 01:25:09 PM »
I see $2500 in frivolous spending including that $500 car payment.

They could just save $2.5k month towards down payment, $500 kept for student loans, and buy a home in 2 yrs for $300k with 20% down.  Yep. Apt condo or townhouse. Should be OK for two younger persons, even if they want children. 


 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!