Getting a Teen Motivated

[ltt]

We have a son who will be a senior next year.  He does very well academically by putting in very little time, and math seems to be his strong point.  I rarely, throughout his life, have seen him open a textbook--his style of learning is auditory.  He is involved in extracurricular activities through school (does well in music, National Honor Society, etc.), has been learning to play a string instrument on the weekends (to which I drive him).  He wants to major in computer science in college.  He scored a 27 on his ACT this year---definitely room for improvement.  We, as parents, do not expect to pay the entire bill for his college.  We have some money set aside for him for college, but it needs to stretch out over four years and will roughly cover 1/3 of the cost for a 4-year in-state school.  We could provide more, if needed, but my husband would like to retire within about 4 years.  He will be taking some dual-credit classes in his senior year which will basically gain him 12 credits.

He has worked part-time in the past at a job where he made very little money, was an hour away from our home, and it ended up costing us to have him work--it was at a camp.  And he loved it!  But reality has set in, and we have told him he can't keep working there, as he needs to start saving money for college.  We live in a somewhat rural area and he would have to drive for work.

He could attend community college locally and, more than likely, receive scholarships, which would make it much more palatable for us to pay the remaining two years at a 4-year school.

He is somewhat set on attending a 4-year school from the beginning.

Money does not seem to be important to him.  It never has been.  On one hand, I don't want his grades to fall because he has a job.  On the other hand, I don't really want him to come out of college with any amount of debt, but we do expect him to contribute.

How much did you expect your children to contribute to college??  Any advice is appreciated---good or bad.

   

[GetItRight]

Get him straight into the workforce. There is no need for college in pretty much anything with computers, experience and ability to learn quickly is worth far more. Sounds like he has the learning quickly and easily part down, so get him some experience. If he tinkers with computers or programming as a hobby that will help with the first few jobs in the field. A cheap two year school may be helpful for some structure and making contacts for potential jobs, but he won't learn much there. May be helpful if he works for the schools IT if he goes that route and positions are available. Convenient to not be driving all over rushing from work to class once or twice a day too.

[Otsog]

I got great marks in HS without cracking a textbook either and breezed through math/physics/calc, but I am definitely not an auditory learner, I learn by reading. I just had undiagnosed ADHD-PI (primarily inattentive) that was impossible to catch because my grades never suffered. University was a harsh reality check and ended up taking a lot more time and $$$ than anticipated because I didn't have the tools to learn and it wasn't all intuitive/easy enough to wing it.

99.9999% that won't apply to your Son. Just mentioning so you can put it away and have an avenue to look into in a couple years if his transition from HS to College is rougher than expected.

[okits]

It sounds like you want him to respect and value money without having to sacrifice, be deprived, or make hard choices.  He's an adult, and if he doesn't think money is important by now then those are exactly the things he needs to experience to learn the value of a dollar.

Ask him now what his plan is for college. Scholarships, job earnings, loans?  Tell him straight up you're covering 1/3, the rest is up to him.  If he goes the loan route make sure you discuss the cost of borrowing (compound interest).  But leave it up to him to come up with the rest (a gap year to earn isn't the end of the world, either.)

[gt7152b]

Find out about how strong the co- op program for CS is at any prospective universities. You may not need to spend more than freshman tuition. I know this was the case for any decent engineering students at my alma mater in the 90's.

[Fruglette]

I'm afraid I disagree with GetItRight - especially for a kid who WANTS to go to college.  While there's lots of talk of college not being for everyone (which I agree with), the fact remains that college graduates earn significantly more than high school graduates - $17,500 more for millennials today - even in the early years.  Plus, a college degree is correlated with lower rates of unemployment and higher rates of marital stability.  Google "college education income vs. high school" and you'll turn up studies from Pew and others. 

But wait, you might say, this kid like computers, and in that field a degree may not make a big difference.  Fair enough.  But I don't hear ITT suggesting their son feels this is necessarily a lock, and I know a lot of unhappy 30 and 40-something computer folks who feel stuck in their current profession.  College will let him test out what he loves, and possibly double major in a way that is valuable to him later.  And if he learns it's not, even after graduation (a common occurrence for us all to change our minds as we learn and grow), any degree will give him a whole lot more career flexibility to change course and go in different directions.

That brings us 'round to the original question - how much to expect from the kid vis-a-vis contributing financially?  I should say up front that I worked my way through college with a combination of scholarships, on-campus and off-campus jobs.  I was a bank teller (all four years), did office work for a tax attorney (all four years), and was Residence Life for 2 years, which gave me half off room and board during my senior year.  I also had a little bit in loan money ($15k coming out).  I found working to be fun, interesting, and it meant I had my own spending money and independence, which was enormously satisfying.  For many kids, being busier means you use your time better, so grades didn't suffer and maybe even benefitted.

It may be that you set an initial set of expectations for him: that he get the best job he can this summer and next summer, and maybe put a $ savings goal on it, half of which goes to tuition, and half of which is his initial college spending money - for everything (books, off-campus food, clothing, etc.).  I don't know what jobs are available in your area for him, or how much in-state tuition might be, but I think you want to line these up to make the goals realistic so that he can succeed (but needs to work hard to do it).  You don't want to set an impossible goal that leaves him feeling discouraged instead - but this may depend on his personality and what motivates him.

We have saved to cover college for our 3 kids, but don't plan to cover all of it for all the reasons you describe - they'll value the education (and working is itself an education) and the perspective you get working tough jobs like busboy (my least favorite of my high school jobs) is important in terms of how you treat people later I think......

Just my 2 cents.

[former player]

Up till now, you've been making nearly all your son's choices for him - including the choice to live in a fairly rural area that gives him limited access to jobs and requires him to commute to them.  Fair enough so far.  But your son is soon going to be 18 and legally an adult.  That means him making his own choices, and you supporting him in making those choices and providing additional support (e.g. him continuing to live at home, paying some of his college expenses) as you think fit.   

I'm getting a clear preference from you that you would like your son to go to community college for two years and to leave college with no debt.  You've already told him to give up a job at camp that he likes, presumably in order to take up some other job to which he would have to commute by car.  But I think you need to start letting him make those decisions.  Your role is to make sure he has all the information he needs on which to make those decisions.  So I would suggest that instead you tell him what support you are able to provide (eg living at home if he goes to community college, helping him to commute to a local job, the amount of money which has been set aside for his college expenses and what conditions -if any - you are putting on it).  Then tell him that it is up to him what he decides to do, that you know that he is intelligent and responsible, that you are happy to talk his options through with him at any time, and that you will support whatever his decisions are.  Then let him get on with it.

[Kiwi Mustache]

Kick him out of home (nicely).

Force him to grow up and make his own decisions, how to cook, clean, pay electricity bills, etc.

I left home straight after school and moved to a new town. My sister lived with my parents throughout college. I grew up and took on responsibility very fast. I quickly figured out a lot of things by not having that safety net of my parents doing stuff for me. My sister is still reliant on them.

[MrsPete]

First, I'd be concerned about a student who never opens a textbook.  Is he choosing classes that're too easy for him?  If so, he may not be developing study techniques, and that often comes back to hurt students later:  All students will hit some class at some point that WILL require studying, and then they don't have the habits.  And college is a big step up from high school. 

As for not caring about money -- that's something that tends to happen when kids have always had pretty much everything they wanted.  They don't grasp that NOT having money is uncomfortable.  How to remedy this:  Let him do without something.  Let him be uncomfortable.  Ideally this lesson should be firmly entrenched by the time the student enters high school, but better late than never.  A part-time job NOW is a good idea; and insist that he save half of what he earns for college.  And put him in charge of some things around the house; for example, give him the week's grocery money and tell him to go shopping.  That type of thing is a learning experience. 

So you'd like him to start with community college, and he'd like to go straight to a 4-year school.  Have you visited schools and really looked into options?  Both have their pros and cons.  If you haven't visited yet, it's time to do that now; after all, he will be applying for colleges in September, which is only four months away.  As a part of that, have a heart-to-heart talk about how much you are willing to contribute to his education, and discuss how far it would go if you do the community college route vs. the 4-year route.  Lay out multiple budget projections, and work from that point.  Be crystal clear on what you will /won't do when he graduates a year from now:  Aside from tuition and the obvious costs, Will you pay his car insurance?  Cell phone?  Health insurance? 

I disagree with one comment made here:  Someone said he's an adult and is ready to make his own decisions.  He's not an adult yet.  He's still a teenaged boy, and he needs guidance.  How many people on this board have said something to the effect of, "I'm saddled with student debt, and I didn't realize what I was doing when I took out all those loans."  That's the type of decision people are able to make when they are technically adults, but they aren't yet functioning as adults.  By teaching him now, you can save him from that type of danger. 

[mozar]

It sounds like he has been coasting through life so far. If you have some funds for college how about using it instead for a summer abroad program? He will learn pretty fast that life doesn't come easy, and maybe will motivate to think about his future, if he has an opportunity to be independent for a couple months, which I'm sure he yearns for. Also will help him standout on his college apps.

[rocketpj]

My kid is a bit younger and is also naturally very talented at school (and athletics).  This is an amazing thing, but can also be very dangerous when that young person does run into things that actually require work.

There is a reason 'gifted' kids often end up as dropouts.  Because when it gets hard they don't have the skills to buckle down, and nobody has ever taught it to them.  I can speak from experience on this - I had easy, great grades all through high school, and did well at any sports I chose to try.  But it took me quite a few years and more than a few hard knocks to become a grown up later on, and my easy ride through high school sure didn't help.

The fact is most education is designed for the fat part of the bell curve.  The kids who struggle and the kids who are naturally talented don't fit the design and end up struggling. 

Not that any of this will be an issue for your kid, but it's something to be aware of.  If you can, think about a way you can help him to develop some of those skills without either giving it to him or making it too easy for him.  This is harder than it looks, but the sooner you think about it the better.

One way would be to have a serious talk about him regarding the costs of college.  Have him research the cost of living wherever he might choose to go, along with tuition, books, beer and everything else that students might need or want.  Work out the total cost - many young people don't think in totals.  Then help him think about how to a) cover those totals with work, your help and/or debt, or b) reduce them by finding ways to lower the cost (i.e. go to a cheaper school, live at home, live in a cheaper home). 

The key in that kind of thing is to respect him enough to let him work out the ramifications and challenges, and only give him answers if he asks.  Just frame the questions for him as 'I want to help but I need to know you've thought it all through'.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[ltt]

First, I'd be concerned about a student who never opens a textbook.  Is he choosing classes that're too easy for him?  If so, he may not be developing study techniques, and that often comes back to hurt students later:  All students will hit some class at some point that WILL require studying, and then they don't have the habits.  And college is a big step up from high school. 

As for not caring about money -- that's something that tends to happen when kids have always had pretty much everything they wanted.  They don't grasp that NOT having money is uncomfortable.  How to remedy this:  Let him do without something.  Let him be uncomfortable.  Ideally this lesson should be firmly entrenched by the time the student enters high school, but better late than never.  A part-time job NOW is a good idea; and insist that he save half of what he earns for college.  And put him in charge of some things around the house; for example, give him the week's grocery money and tell him to go shopping.  That type of thing is a learning experience. 

So you'd like him to start with community college, and he'd like to go straight to a 4-year school.  Have you visited schools and really looked into options?  Both have their pros and cons.  If you haven't visited yet, it's time to do that now; after all, he will be applying for colleges in September, which is only four months away.  As a part of that, have a heart-to-heart talk about how much you are willing to contribute to his education, and discuss how far it would go if you do the community college route vs. the 4-year route.  Lay out multiple budget projections, and work from that point.  Be crystal clear on what you will /won't do when he graduates a year from now:  Aside from tuition and the obvious costs, Will you pay his car insurance?  Cell phone?  Health insurance? 

I disagree with one comment made here:  Someone said he's an adult and is ready to make his own decisions.  He's not an adult yet.  He's still a teenaged boy, and he needs guidance.  How many people on this board have said something to the effect of, "I'm saddled with student debt, and I didn't realize what I was doing when I took out all those loans."  That's the type of decision people are able to make when they are technically adults, but they aren't yet functioning as adults.  By teaching him now, you can save him from that type of danger.

This post hits about as close to home as it gets.  Some of his classes this year are Chemistry, Trigonometry, Spanish (3rd year), and Personal Finance (they are discussing Dave Ramsey).  The classes aren't necessarily easy, it's just that he picks up on things very quickly.  One of his teachers made a comment on his report card that he has a passion for math.  I don't necessarily want to hold him back from that.  (I should add that my husband really didn't pick up a textbook either---he's in engineering).  And I agree with you that, at some point, he's going to have to buckle down with the books.

We are talking with him about part-time work and he has filled out some applications, but doesn't seem that interested in following-up with employers.  Yes, we have provided for him, but, overall during his life, he hasn't asked for much.  Some of the things he has wanted, he has paid for with money earned from working at camp, birthday money, etc.  He doesn't seem to be interested in spending much money either--not interested in the $150 tennis shoes, brand names, things like that.

There is really only one university that he is interested in attending.  We are trying to do the models now to show him what it will cost.  It's pretty much between that and a local community college for 2 years and then the university he wants to attend for 2 years. 

[RFAAOATB]

My college costs were covered with a grant from the Bank of Mom and Dad.  I screwed up my first year, took an academic suspension, switched majors and graduated in 4 years after increasing my course load and summer classes.  My ran through many years of parental college funding with little progress, tried again with student loans, and now has no degree and loan debt.  These things could go either way.

If you got the money and he is probable to graduate, then funding a bachelor's degree for your children is the best option.

[Lis]

First of all, it's great that you're being so open with him right now about how much everything costs. I had no idea how much it cost when I was his age. My dad pushed me towards private, name-brand colleges (with the price tags to match). My parents had the plan to put me through the four years and be completely debt free - then the recession hit, dad lost his job, and I took out loans. I had a phenomenal experience at college and, even knowing what I know now, would still do it again. But there were times where we didn't know if I could stay at my school for financial reasons. It dawned on me then that I really wished my parents had been more open about their finances with me.

Look into what options your son might have on campus to help cut costs - work study, on campus jobs, Residential Life... I was on res. life for 7 of my 8 semesters, working my way up from RA to a building manager, and I swear I learned more from those experiences than any of my classes. Res Life started me off with discounted housing, then free, then free and a (very small) stipend.

As for his studying habits - something that might help is having him tutor. He might just not understand that some things don't come as easily or quickly to other people as it does for him, and that there might be a topic or class in college that he just doesn't get at first. Tutoring others helped a few smart friends of mine pick up studying habits by watching and helping those who needed it. (Of course, tutoring isn't for everyone. One friend would explain how to do something one way, and if whoever he was helping still didn't understand it, he would proclaim them stupid and that he couldn't help them. More hurt than help in the long (and short) run.)

[cbgg]

It sounds like your son is a smart and fairly responsible kid.  He gets good grades and he sounds well suited to Comp Sci which is an EXCEPTIONAL choice for career opportunities (I say this as an HR person at a tech co in the SF Bay area...I see how much these kids make and I'm thinking about retraining myself!). 

I think all that you need to do is set clear expectations, help guide him to information, and let him take it from there.  Here's what I'd do
1) Tell him clearly exactly how much you will contribute to his post-secondary education. 
2) Talk to him about how he can learn about the total costs of university.  Don't figure it out for him, but help him find the right resources to get the answer on his own.  Make sure he looks at the different costs for different options (living on campus vs living at home, community college with transfer to four year, in-state vs out-of-state).
3) Talk to him about the options to bridge the gap.  Scholarships and part-time work (or starting a small business?) are two biggies.  Schools with great internship/co-operative education programs are also a great way to get relevant paid work experience while already in school.
4) See what he decides to do.  If he insists that it's loans-loans-and-nothing-but-loans, eventually that's his mistake to make.  You are helping to shape him, but eventually he'll be an adult and will have to make decisions about what's best for him. 

Help give him the tools and expose him to the information, but it's time for him to practice thinking through and making his own decisions.  And if he makes the wrong decision this summer, maybe he'll learn from it and make a better one next summer.

[bogart]

There is really only one university that he is interested in attending.  We are trying to do the models now to show him what it will cost.  It's pretty much between that and a local community college for 2 years and then the university he wants to attend for 2 years.

It doesn't sound to me like your son is a planner, hardly a surprising fact about a rising HS senior.

For the coming summer, if he wants to work at the camp, I'd let him work at the camp.  I might tell him he has to cover his own costs to do so, not subsidize it.  If I think he's acquiring things (skills, maturity) at the camp that have value, I might subsidize it. 

You could consider telling him that after date (X) you won't provide him with transportation anymore, or only on a limited basis I(for example you might choose to commit to driving him to campus to start his freshman year, picking him up at Thanksgiving, and again at the end of the semester, etc., but that otherwise he's on his own) -- in other words, that he needs to start planning to meet his own needs for things like transport, whether that means saving up and buying a car or whatever.

I'd let him apply to the one university he wants to go to, see if he gets in and what it will cost, and go from there.  No reason not to tell him now what you are/aren't willing to contribute to his education, so that he can start to plan (whether or not he does, he can).

I graduated from college in the late 1990s after my mom paid for most of it, and I had ~$10K in debt.  It was money well spent, for sure.  My DH and I (and their mom) put my stepkids through college with similar amounts of debt; the one who went on to use the education, definitely money well spent, the other one -- debatable, I suppose (he does fine, indeed, is quite Mustachian, but, well, let's for the sake of example say he works in a landscaping business.  That's not accurate, but close enough, key point, no college education required.).

[Gimesalot]

Here are some practical ideas to help with college costs:

1.  Look into AP classes or those that offer dual enrollment with a community college.  My high school had both.  These typically cost about $300 to $500 a year. 

2.  Have him sign up for night classes at community college during his senior year.  Although not as cheap as AP classes, it is a good way to get electives and humanities out of the way.  Also, suggest he take one more difficult class, so he can get used to the work that college will require.

3.  Look at your states requirements for top performer scholarships.  For example here is the Louisiana awards: http://www.osfa.state.la.us/MainSitePDFs/TOPS_OPH_brochure_8-11.pdf  Arizona here: http://www.azed.gov/endorsement-tuition-scholarship/files/2014/03/abor-scholarship-brochure.pdf

You can probably end up covering all of his costs with the money you have a these strategies.

[MrsPete]

There is a reason 'gifted' kids often end up as dropouts.  Because when it gets hard they don't have the skills to buckle down, and nobody has ever taught it to them.  I can speak from experience on this - I had easy, great grades all through high school, and did well at any sports I chose to try.  But it took me quite a few years and more than a few hard knocks to become a grown up later on, and my easy ride through high school sure didn't help.

First, I'd say that being gifted doesn't necessarily correlate with high motivation and good academic (or work) habits. 

Second, in my experience as a teacher, most gifted kids don't drop out -- but those who are low on the motivation scale pretty often tend to opt for high school classes that're too easy for them.  That is, the kid who could've done well in AP Bio (but it would've required effort) chooses to stick to general-level Bio, where he can pass the class with a C (maybe even a B) simply by listening in class.  He bypasses the more difficult experiments and lab reports, yet he can still pass the state final exam.  So the gifted-but-lazy kid ends up graduating ... but not with the high school experiences he should've /could've had.

[MrMoogle]

So, everyone is different, what works for one, might not work for another.

Is he competitive?  I was pretty gifted, and if I went to a community college, I probably would have done poorly.  I took a few college classes in HS, and there wasn't anyone on my level to compete with.  I would have lost motivation on my own.

I never cracked a book, even in college in engineering, even when working on my Masters. 

I wish my parents had done better about communicating the costs of college.  They paid for it all, but I'm sure there would have been scholarships I could have qualified for to help reduce the cost. 

I have always been frugal, my biggest weakness on my own, was figuring out what things should cost.  $150 electric bill, is that high, low, or average?  The price of college would also have been there.  If my parents told me that college would be $15k/year, I wouldn't have any reference to put that in.  Even translating that to say paying $500/month in SL, I wouldn't know what that meant.

[rocketpj]

There is a reason 'gifted' kids often end up as dropouts.  Because when it gets hard they don't have the skills to buckle down, and nobody has ever taught it to them.  I can speak from experience on this - I had easy, great grades all through high school, and did well at any sports I chose to try.  But it took me quite a few years and more than a few hard knocks to become a grown up later on, and my easy ride through high school sure didn't help.

First, I'd say that being gifted doesn't necessarily correlate with high motivation and good academic (or work) habits. 

Second, in my experience as a teacher, most gifted kids don't drop out -- but those who are low on the motivation scale pretty often tend to opt for high school classes that're too easy for them.  That is, the kid who could've done well in AP Bio (but it would've required effort) chooses to stick to general-level Bio, where he can pass the class with a C (maybe even a B) simply by listening in class.  He bypasses the more difficult experiments and lab reports, yet he can still pass the state final exam.  So the gifted-but-lazy kid ends up graduating ... but not with the high school experiences he should've /could've had.

Oh, I didn't mean drop out of high school.  Most people can manage that.  I meant a lot of 'gifted' kids drop out of higher education or other 'high achievement' pursuits.  One unfortunate hazard of intelligence is the ability to recognize a lot of bullshit for what it is, but a sad effect of a lack of wisdom is an inability to come up with viable alternatives on the fly.

Any of us who went to college must have known a few/many people who were clearly intelligent but spent their time smoking pot and/or in the pub and not buckling down.  It isn't necessarily laziness so much as disinterest (and a clear lack of wisdom).

[Money Badger]

FWIW, I have teens who are very different about money and employment...   The common thread to motivate them both is finding a peer group they want to go to work with...   The jobs at the teen "entry level" stage are going to be lower quality, but the biggest thing is the positive experience with their peer group and serving people in a meaningful way, somehow.   With a success under their belt, then they move upward from there.    I worked in a restaurant as a teen and hated it, worked for a farmer making less $ per hour baling hay as a kid and loved it cause my buddies were on the crew as well.

As for classes and his math gift, beware of automatically pushing towards computer science.   I've been in Information Technology for 25 years and it's been financially rewarding but also a series of roles with a common theme of being managed by "people people" who find ways to offload the technical work onto others.  Shoot instead for a combination of jobs that develop good skills with customers and bosses and his peer group along with classwork in fields that "use math" but don't shackle him to a keyboard 8-12 hours a day later on in life.  This is how I'm steering my math kid.   

And FWIW, I'll add that the IT market is being consumed by smart immigrant labor that our kind American employers are all too happy to hire for 50-75 cents on the dollar vs. a similar US native's salary.   I'm very fond of my co-workers from other countries, but clearly see the pattern in my last 3 employers that the technical jobs are going to these folks who come to the table with 2 or 3 advanced degrees and highly motivated family units who pushed them to the technology track.    He will need to be able to compete with these folks if he goes IT AND avoid the burn out effect later on in his 30s/40s with a mentally demanding and repetitive game.   He could also love it since all kids are different... so best of luck regardless of the path!!