Author Topic: Generation Y and let downs..  (Read 39529 times)

Jack

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2013, 03:40:11 PM »
No one expects to graduate and immediately be “making lots of money in their passion.” They are hoping that they will at least be able to find work that will allow them to keep up with their student loan payments.

The other thing they're hoping to do is get a job that provides appropriate experience in order to progress in their field. There are lots of gen-Y folks, with degrees, who are never going to have a decent job because by the time the economy gets good again their skills will be so rusty that they won't be able to succeed at even an entry-level position. Not without re-training, anyway.

DebtDerp

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2013, 03:58:57 PM »
No one expects to graduate and immediately be “making lots of money in their passion.” They are hoping that they will at least be able to find work that will allow them to keep up with their student loan payments.

The other thing they're hoping to do is get a job that provides appropriate experience in order to progress in their field. There are lots of gen-Y folks, with degrees, who are never going to have a decent job because by the time the economy gets good again their skills will be so rusty that they won't be able to succeed at even an entry-level position. Not without re-training, anyway.

Yeah, I can't find it now but I read an article that looked at a study that determined that the first years of ones career are highly correlated to how much money one will make over the course of their entire career. This puts even more pressure on young adults to find the right the job early on.

destron

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2013, 04:01:27 PM »
Assumption: “She’s probably started off her career perfectly well”

Reality: “Even those lucky enough to be employed are often struggling. Little more than half are working full time—compared with about 80% of the population at large—and 12% earn minimum wage or less. The median weekly wage for young workers has fallen more than 5% since 2007”

Even by your own reading of the statistics, most 20-24 y/o's are employed.

meh... I'm not going to go back through my points if you can't understand that there is a difference between being employed and starting off a career perfectly well.

It is easy to win an argument by neglecting most of it and then dismissing the rest.

According to your blog you've been out of school for three years. You lack perspective on employment. I also graduated in a bad economy. Things will get better, then they will get worse again.

You do seem to be meeting the expectations of this article you dislike so much by trying to convince everyone that your problems are not your fault, they are caused by society / the economy / baby boomers. I think taking out $100,000 in student loans is a poor idea, even if it is for a major that is on track to get you a good job. You don't think that it might have been a little bit of a bad idea? That maybe, just maybe, you are also responsible for your choices? Nobody has said that it is as easy to succeed today as it was in the past.

Anyhow, enjoy your ranting. You have missed the entire point of the linked article which doesn't even comment on Gen-Y'ers success or lack thereof. It talks about their happiness levels. You don't seem to be very happy, you seem pretty angry.

DebtDerp

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2013, 04:28:04 PM »
Assumption: “She’s probably started off her career perfectly well”

Reality: “Even those lucky enough to be employed are often struggling. Little more than half are working full time—compared with about 80% of the population at large—and 12% earn minimum wage or less. The median weekly wage for young workers has fallen more than 5% since 2007”

Even by your own reading of the statistics, most 20-24 y/o's are employed.

meh... I'm not going to go back through my points if you can't understand that there is a difference between being employed and starting off a career perfectly well.

It is easy to win an argument by neglecting most of it and then dismissing the rest.

According to your blog you've been out of school for three years. You lack perspective on employment. I also graduated in a bad economy. Things will get better, then they will get worse again.

You do seem to be meeting the expectations of this article you dislike so much by trying to convince everyone that your problems are not your fault, they are caused by society / the economy / baby boomers. I think taking out $100,000 in student loans is a poor idea, even if it is for a major that is on track to get you a good job. You don't think that it might have been a little bit of a bad idea? That maybe, just maybe, you are also responsible for your choices? Nobody has said that it is as easy to succeed today as it was in the past.

Anyhow, enjoy your ranting. You have missed the entire point of the linked article which doesn't even comment on Gen-Y'ers success or lack thereof. It talks about their happiness levels. You don't seem to be very happy, you seem pretty angry.

That’s ok. I’ve actually got it pretty good. Yeah I made a mistake and took out too much debt to get my degree but it actually worked out for me. I’ve got a great job that pays me more than enough in the field that I studied for. I’ve got it so good that I can actually make huge extra payments on my loans and try to correct the mistake I made. Thankfully I found MMM and realized I needed to get out of that debt.

I have taken full responsibility for the situation I put myself in and am doing something about it. I am extremely blessed and actually really happy with where my life is going and all I want and can hope for is the same thing for my peers.

The article made me upset because it is talking about my friends. People that I see working just as hard as I do if not harder but having a much more difficult time of finding that well-paying job or finding a job at all. They have the same degree I do, better experience in some cases, or better grades. Then this author says that they are unhappy and frustrated because reality did not meet their expectations, that they don’t work hard enough and think they are too special.

All I’m trying to say is that they are unhappy/frustrated for entirely different reasons. They are struggling to stay in their apartment and not be forced to move back home, again. They are stuck doing menial jobs at an unpaid internship with the never-ending promise that in just a few more weeks we’ll have a position for you... They can't even dream about the day where they might actually be able to start saving to buy a house. These people aren’t entitled yuppies that don't know how to work hard, they are merely trying to do the best they can in a shitty situation.

And with that I’m going to be leaving this conversation now. Carry on.

arebelspy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2013, 05:47:54 PM »
I agree/disagree.  The returns in SS are so abysmal (i think i read something like 1-2%), you would be guaranteed to do better over the long run.  But I think a lot of pension funds, these days at least, are funded at 100% and have much higher returns.  While still probably lower than an 'average' individual portfolio, I would think the risk might be lower.

No, most pensions are underfunded, and definitely have lower returns than rolling your own.

Exactly.  My company does give us young'ns an extra 3% in our 401K.  I estimate that's worth about $10,000/year in traditional retirement.  The pension everyone before me has is worth about $30,000/year.  And we make similar amounts after adjusting for years experience, etc.

Um, sure, those with the pensions are getting 30k in benefits, but it has been built up over a long time.

If you instead took that 10k/yr and invested it over 30 years (the typical time it takes to earn a full pension) at 7% compounded you'd have ~944k..   I'd rather have the 944k (which could produce the same 30k annually if you wanted at a 3.1% SWR) than the pension benefit of 30k/yr.

In other words, I think it's - at worst - a wash for 401ks, if not slightly better.  The problem is people don't contribute to the 401ks, not that they're bad vehicles.   I'd absolutely prefer to have the amount my employer contributes to a pension be given as a 401k match.

Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.
You have one.  It's called Social Security.

As a member of gen-Y, I have no expectation that I'll ever receive a dime from Social Security.

In fact, I'm more worried about having to support my gen-X in-laws when they get screwed out of theirs.

Then why complain about not having a pension???  If one thinks that SS may not be great, I'd be even more worried about a company's stability than the Governments.  Companies go bankrupt much more than the U.S. government. 

Either you think pensions are great, in which case you probably have one, as a U.S. worker (social security), or you don't like social security because you are worried about it paying out, in which case you should have the same concern about pensions, and be glad you don't have one!

Saying that these people should just “go get that job” or “go make a job” is the modern day let them eat cake. It’s not reality.

Why not?  It's great that you can throw out a fun historical reference, but it doesn't make it true.  I honestly, legitimately believe that were I fired tomorrow, I could go make myself a job earning more money than I am teaching.  And I believe anyone could do the same, if they were willing to put in hard work, realize it won't be fun or fulfilling (at first), but it will pay the bills.

You may think it's a fantasy, I see it as a lack of knowledge on those people's parts.

OAS pays about 500$ a month if you max out the benefits (which few people can do).

Dynamite.  The amount isn't relevant - my point was its relation to a pension.

But hell, if you want a pension, MAKE ONE.  You can buy annuities that you pay premiums now, for years, and then they activate at a future date (depending on the contract) and pay you a monthly sum for life.  It's exactly like a pension.  Google "delayed annuity" and the like.

I really don't get the whining about not having a pension (not you, necessarily, but I see it a lot).  You want less money in your take home, so you can have the company control it and hope they pay it out to you in 30 years?  PASS.

this author says that they are unhappy and frustrated because reality did not meet their expectations

...

All I’m trying to say is that they are unhappy/frustrated for entirely different reasons. They are struggling to stay in their apartment and not be forced to move back home, again. They are stuck doing menial jobs at an unpaid internship with the never-ending promise that in just a few more weeks we’ll have a position for you... They can't even dream about the day where they might actually be able to start saving to buy a house. These people aren’t entitled yuppies that don't know how to work hard, they are merely trying to do the best they can in a shitty situation.

Your second paragraph quoted fits EXACTLY with the first sentence about the author's reason for them being unhappy.

They are stuck in menial jobs?  Unpaid internships? In debt?  etc.?

Well did they expect those things?  No?  That's what's making them unhappy.  The difference between their life (now), and their expectations.

Expect it to be shitty for awhile.  Expect to have to grind.  To work hard, two jobs maybe. To get out of debt.  Then, when you do better, happiness.
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Undecided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2013, 06:21:10 PM »

Um, sure, those with the pensions are getting 30k in benefits, but it has been built up over a long time.

If you instead took that 10k/yr and invested it over 30 years (the typical time it takes to earn a full pension) at 7% compounded you'd have ~944k..   I'd rather have the 944k (which could produce the same 30k annually if you wanted at a 3.1% SWR) than the pension benefit of 30k/yr.

In other words, I think it's - at worst - a wash for 401ks, if not slightly better.  The problem is people don't contribute to the 401ks, not that they're bad vehicles.   I'd absolutely prefer to have the amount my employer contributes to a pension be given as a 401k match.


I think mpbaker was saying the $10,000 was his future projected value, not $10,000 now. He said 3%, so your number would suggest annual pay of $333,333. Maybe you're right and he is making that and did mean $10,000 today, but I can assure you that people making amounts comparable to that during the pension heydey were getting pensions far larger than $30,000 year.

destron

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2013, 06:54:23 PM »

Um, sure, those with the pensions are getting 30k in benefits, but it has been built up over a long time.

If you instead took that 10k/yr and invested it over 30 years (the typical time it takes to earn a full pension) at 7% compounded you'd have ~944k..   I'd rather have the 944k (which could produce the same 30k annually if you wanted at a 3.1% SWR) than the pension benefit of 30k/yr.

In other words, I think it's - at worst - a wash for 401ks, if not slightly better.  The problem is people don't contribute to the 401ks, not that they're bad vehicles.   I'd absolutely prefer to have the amount my employer contributes to a pension be given as a 401k match.


I think mpbaker was saying the $10,000 was his future projected value, not $10,000 now. He said 3%, so your number would suggest annual pay of $333,333. Maybe you're right and he is making that and did mean $10,000 today, but I can assure you that people making amounts comparable to that during the pension heydey were getting pensions far larger than $30,000 year.

They certainly were far larger because the pensions were highly subsidized, either by the company or by the taxpayer in the case of government jobs. I think we can all agree that having that stability would be a good thing, but that nowadays it is more the impression of stability. Many of those pensions are underfunded and are based on unrealistic expectations of growth. At some point, the Ponzi scheme has to fall apart. The good thing about saving your own money is you know how much is there and you can't end up like many retirees who have their pensions pulled out from under them, legally.

grantmeaname

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2013, 07:00:40 PM »
Yeah, I can't find it now but I read an article that looked at a study that determined that the first years of ones career are highly correlated to how much money one will make over the course of their entire career. This puts even more pressure on young adults to find the right the job early on.
No it doesn't. Correlation doesn't imply causation, the two can be common responses to the same factors (educational experience, willingness to work hard), that's not how statistical inference works, and all that.

grantmeaname

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2013, 07:02:29 PM »
I much preferred the response from a "successful" Gen Y journalist: http://aweinstein.kinja.com/fuck-you-im-gen-y-and-i-dont-feel-special-or-entitl-1333588443
This article is just a petulant little kid bitching that he chose a poorly-paid profession. Didn't he know that when he went in?

Undecided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2013, 07:35:08 PM »

Um, sure, those with the pensions are getting 30k in benefits, but it has been built up over a long time.

If you instead took that 10k/yr and invested it over 30 years (the typical time it takes to earn a full pension) at 7% compounded you'd have ~944k..   I'd rather have the 944k (which could produce the same 30k annually if you wanted at a 3.1% SWR) than the pension benefit of 30k/yr.

In other words, I think it's - at worst - a wash for 401ks, if not slightly better.  The problem is people don't contribute to the 401ks, not that they're bad vehicles.   I'd absolutely prefer to have the amount my employer contributes to a pension be given as a 401k match.


I think mpbaker was saying the $10,000 was his future projected value, not $10,000 now. He said 3%, so your number would suggest annual pay of $333,333. Maybe you're right and he is making that and did mean $10,000 today, but I can assure you that people making amounts comparable to that during the pension heydey were getting pensions far larger than $30,000 year.

They certainly were far larger because the pensions were highly subsidized, either by the company or by the taxpayer in the case of government jobs. I think we can all agree that having that stability would be a good thing, but that nowadays it is more the impression of stability. Many of those pensions are underfunded and are based on unrealistic expectations of growth. At some point, the Ponzi scheme has to fall apart. The good thing about saving your own money is you know how much is there and you can't end up like many retirees who have their pensions pulled out from under them, legally.

How common are pension reductions? I know from Wikipedia that the PBGC currently serves, or will serve, 1.3 million people under failed private pensions (but not the frequency or extent of reductions in payments) vs. 44 people participating in pensions subject to PBGC, but don't see know of even that minimmally useful data for public pensions.

Jamesqf

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2013, 08:58:26 PM »
I think Baby Boomers are the most entitled generation of all.

This is the generation that:
- had free education, work past retirement age at the best income and lifestyle (due to seniority), making off money off owning/running companies that use debt-strapped Gen Y'ers for unpaid/underpaid internships...

I wonder exactly which "Baby Boomers" we're talking about here.  I qualify as one, based on birth date (between 1946 and 1964, per Wikipedia), yet I certainly don't remember getting free education (beyond high school).  Unless of course you mean the four-year degree I got starting at Parris Island.  Useful skills, perhaps, but hardly remunerative in any legal civilian occupation.

In fact, I remember a notable lack (or at least lack of access for people like me) of the sorts of loans and grants that are available today.  Yes, I didn't borrow the inflation-adjusted equivalent of $100K to go directly to college from high school, because no one was in the business of lending it to me.  So I worked: farm labor, construction work, whatever was going, until I had enough to pay for an education. 

While I certainly intend to work past normal retirement age, seniority has nothing to do with it.  I have to compete with people fresh out of school.  My only guarantee of continued work is being as good as them, or better.

So no, I don't feel particularly entitled, and I'm by no means unique.

Oh, and those underpaid internships?  Know a guy who just did one at Google, earning close to $6k per month.  Another acquaintance was at IBM a few years back, at around $5K/month.

arebelspy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2013, 09:23:08 PM »
Please don't troll, Jamesqf.

Oh, and those underpaid internships?  Know a guy who just did one at Google, earning close to $6k per month.  Another acquaintance was at IBM a few years back, at around $5K/month.

That is clearly not an unpaid (or underpaid) internship.
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mpbaker22

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2013, 07:26:23 AM »
I agree/disagree.  The returns in SS are so abysmal (i think i read something like 1-2%), you would be guaranteed to do better over the long run.  But I think a lot of pension funds, these days at least, are funded at 100% and have much higher returns.  While still probably lower than an 'average' individual portfolio, I would think the risk might be lower.

No, most pensions are underfunded, and definitely have lower returns than rolling your own.

Exactly.  My company does give us young'ns an extra 3% in our 401K.  I estimate that's worth about $10,000/year in traditional retirement.  The pension everyone before me has is worth about $30,000/year.  And we make similar amounts after adjusting for years experience, etc.

Um, sure, those with the pensions are getting 30k in benefits, but it has been built up over a long time.

If you instead took that 10k/yr and invested it over 30 years (the typical time it takes to earn a full pension) at 7% compounded you'd have ~944k..   I'd rather have the 944k (which could produce the same 30k annually if you wanted at a 3.1% SWR) than the pension benefit of 30k/yr.

In other words, I think it's - at worst - a wash for 401ks, if not slightly better.  The problem is people don't contribute to the 401ks, not that they're bad vehicles.   I'd absolutely prefer to have the amount my employer contributes to a pension be given as a 401k match.

I thought some recent laws forced pensions to be 100% funded going forward or x% funded for current/past promises?
As someone else stated, the 10K is what it would be worth given a 4% SWR and I either used 6 or 7% returns.  I don't want to give away my exact salary here, but it's right around the country's median, not $300,000.
I would prefer the money now as well, all things being equal.  But the way the company did it, they started giving the money now, but dropped the payout by 1/3 (10K vs. 30K).

I wonder exactly which "Baby Boomers" we're talking about here.  I qualify as one, based on birth date (between 1946 and 1964, per Wikipedia), yet I certainly don't remember getting free education (beyond high school).  Unless of course you mean the four-year degree I got starting at Parris Island.  Useful skills, perhaps, but hardly remunerative in any legal civilian occupation.

In fact, I remember a notable lack (or at least lack of access for people like me) of the sorts of loans and grants that are available today.  Yes, I didn't borrow the inflation-adjusted equivalent of $100K to go directly to college from high school, because no one was in the business of lending it to me.  So I worked: farm labor, construction work, whatever was going, until I had enough to pay for an education. 


Not sure if the first poster meant this, but I had the typical 'I paid for school myself' phrase in the back of my head.  Of course, school was 1/4 the cost as it is now, so you could potentially pay with a minimum wage job.
Tuition Fees Room & Board for under 8K in 1972-73.

arebelspy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2013, 07:34:47 AM »
I thought some recent laws forced pensions to be 100% funded going forward or x% funded for current/past promises?
As someone else stated, the 10K is what it would be worth given a 4% SWR and I either used 6 or 7% returns.  I don't want to give away my exact salary here, but it's right around the country's median, not $300,000.
I would prefer the money now as well, all things being equal.  But the way the company did it, they started giving the money now, but dropped the payout by 1/3 (10K vs. 30K).

As of July 1, 2013:
Quote
The funding ratio of the typical US pension plan increased sharply during the second quarter of 2013, rising by six percentage points to 88%, according to the UBS Global Asset Management US Pension Fund Fitness Tracker. Combined with gains in the first quarter, the estimated year-to-date total improvement in funding ratio is close to 11 percentage points.

So the typical one is still 12% underfunded, and that's after huge gains this year in the market (some of which have pulled back) and decreasing liabilities - they were apparently approximately 77% funded at the beginning of 2013.

That's just corporate - most state and federal are in far worse shape, due to various government budget struggles over the last few years (see: detroit bankruptcy).

EDIT: This article, from two days ago, says that "On average, state pension plans are roughly 73 percent funded, according to Morningstar, an investor research company that puts together the annual report."

Only 6 states of 50 are funded at 90% or higher.  26 of them (over half) are funded at 70% or less.

Illinois is funded at 40% and has an unfunded liability of over 7k per person living in the state!  There's no way they'll be able to pay promised benefits.  It's not possible, there will be reductions.

Even if some of the companies/cities/states/etc. get back to healthy status, who's to say in the next 30 years they won't hit a snag, declare bankruptcy and have to reduce benefits?  It's happened plenty of times before, and how do you force payouts when the money isn't there?

Definitely read the annual financial reports for any pension systems you are interested in, as some are doing okay, while others are quite scary (Illinois, as above, and others).

I'd generally take SS over a pension, and I'd take having neither and saving the extra myself over either one.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 07:46:58 AM by arebelspy »
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GuitarStv

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2013, 07:39:33 AM »

OAS pays about 500$ a month if you max out the benefits (which few people can do).

Dynamite.  The amount isn't relevant - my point was its relation to a pension.

But hell, if you want a pension, MAKE ONE.  You can buy annuities that you pay premiums now, for years, and then they activate at a future date (depending on the contract) and pay you a monthly sum for life.  It's exactly like a pension.  Google "delayed annuity" and the like.

I really don't get the whining about not having a pension (not you, necessarily, but I see it a lot).  You want less money in your take home, so you can have the company control it and hope they pay it out to you in 30 years?  PASS.


My point is that it's difficult to call something a pension if it doesn't serve the real purpose of a pension . . . which is to provide living expenses for people who are past working age.

Sure, it's possible to account for the fact that almost nobody gets a pension any more.  I think that all of us on the forum do this.  I don't think it's the best way to run things though.  Many people will not properly plan their retirement savings.  Some will get bad advice, some will never get around to it, and some will simply invest in the wrong stuff.  Large companies have more buying power and the ability to command lower fees than individual investors.  Ideally they should be run by people who invest for a living and can provide a good return.  This is a whole lot of extra work that has been pushed down on to the average person.

I'd prefer that there is a safety net for everyone (even if it meant that a small amount of my earnings go to an investment that I don't have 100% control of).

Insanity

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2013, 07:51:21 AM »
My point is that it's difficult to call something a pension if it doesn't serve the real purpose of a pension . . . which is to provide living expenses for people who are past working age.

you call it green.. i call it a mix of yellow and blue.   It is the same thing.

Large companies have more buying power and the ability to command lower fees than individual investors.  Ideally they should be run by people who invest for a living and can provide a good return.  This is a whole lot of extra work that has been pushed down on to the average person.

The problem with this philosophy (and it shows in health insurance in the US as well) is that this means in order to get those you have to work for a larger company.  If you eliminate the potential of company based pensions, 401K management, health insurance, you level the playing field for fees.  Either the government pays into it or the person does.

I'd prefer that there is a safety net for everyone (even if it meant that a small amount of my earnings go to an investment that I don't have 100% control of).

Then you can't let companies do it as that safety net can go away very quickly.

arebelspy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2013, 07:57:24 AM »
I'd prefer that there is a safety net for everyone (even if it meant that a small amount of my earnings go to an investment that I don't have 100% control of).

I agree.

People advocating for pensions, however, apparently having companies control that is the best way to do that.  I disagree with that.

Also, I don't think your post addressed any of the points I made in the post you quoted, but I guess it doesn't matter.

In the end: you can make your own pension if you want one, and we are better off without pensions controlled by a corporation that has no loyalty to us.  Whining about how people used to get pensions is not only wrong, it's silly.  It's just complainypants for the sake of complaining.
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Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2013, 08:06:20 AM »
I'd prefer that there is a safety net for everyone (even if it meant that a small amount of my earnings go to an investment that I don't have 100% control of).

There is that, it's called SS here.

I'd prefer options. A voluntary system to start.

Undecided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2013, 08:06:41 AM »
Notwithstanding that there is some underfunding, there is also pension guarantee coverage of many private pensions through the PBGC (paid by insurance premiums levied on the pensions/sponsors), so from a beneficiaries point of view, 88% isn't just 88%.

Also, the bigger point regarding wages not increasing sufficiently to allow one to "buy their own [equivalent] pension" still stands, and I would have thought that was the bigger issue. Benefit worth $X was available to many in an earlier generation and for most in a later generation has been replaced with benefit worth less than $X (possibly $). Isn't that the more fundamental issue? Not that I'm saying there's a magic solution to it, but getting caught up in debates regarding personal responsibility vs. collective safety nets is a distraction, if the claim is that the earlier generation was "better off," because it's about amount, not just method, of compensation.

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2013, 08:10:10 AM »
Notwithstanding that there is some underfunding, there is also pension guarantee coverage of many private pensions through the PBGC (paid by insurance premiums levied on the pensions/sponsors), so from a beneficiaries point of view, 88% isn't just 88%.

Also, the bigger point regarding wages not increasing sufficiently to allow one to "buy their own [equivalent] pension" still stands, and I would have thought that was the bigger issue. Benefit worth $X was available to many in an earlier generation and for most in a later generation has been replaced with benefit worth less than $X (possibly $). Isn't that the more fundamental issue? Not that I'm saying there's a magic solution to it, but getting caught up in debates regarding personal responsibility vs. collective safety nets is a distraction, if the claim is that the earlier generation was "better off," because it's about amount, not just method, of compensation.

I find it rather strange that this gets brought up in this forum of all places. That people don't earn enough to afford their own retirement is just wrong.

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2013, 08:14:17 AM »
Rebel, you make good points with regards to rolling out your own pensions, but consider this.

You and 90% of the people here are highly educated professionals who take pleasure in tweaking every possible aspect of their daily lives for maximum efficiency.

At the scale of a country, there is no way to enforce good management and not letting people raiding their "SS funds" when they face "adversity", whether their hardship is imagined (shiny crap! let's buy it) or real (just lost everything in a hurricane). Right now, we have tons of boomers who didn't save enough for retirement. They won't be completely out on the streets because of the idiot-proof, albeit slightly inneficient system that protects the foolish the government has put into place.

You can't fix stupid.

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2013, 08:29:03 AM »
Rebel, you make good points with regards to rolling out your own pensions, but consider this.

You and 90% of the people here are highly educated professionals who take pleasure in tweaking every possible aspect of their daily lives for maximum efficiency.

At the scale of a country, there is no way to enforce good management and not letting people raiding their "SS funds" when they face "adversity", whether their hardship is imagined (shiny crap! let's buy it) or real (just lost everything in a hurricane). Right now, we have tons of boomers who didn't save enough for retirement. They won't be completely out on the streets because of the idiot-proof, albeit slightly inneficient system that protects the foolish the government has put into place.

You can't fix stupid.

Sure, but remember that all this started because Mustachians, who I would consider intelligent, were complaining about the lack of pensions now.

That's what I'd expect from the average uneducated complainypants, but not here.  Thus trying to set the record straight.

I still don't agree with the fact, however, that the average person just can't handle it.  The average person is uneducated on the topic, and there are plenty willing to take advantage of that for profit.

We need to educate people, not force them to do it X way because they can't be trusted.
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Undecided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #72 on: September 19, 2013, 08:35:54 AM »
Notwithstanding that there is some underfunding, there is also pension guarantee coverage of many private pensions through the PBGC (paid by insurance premiums levied on the pensions/sponsors), so from a beneficiaries point of view, 88% isn't just 88%.

Also, the bigger point regarding wages not increasing sufficiently to allow one to "buy their own [equivalent] pension" still stands, and I would have thought that was the bigger issue. Benefit worth $X was available to many in an earlier generation and for most in a later generation has been replaced with benefit worth less than $X (possibly $). Isn't that the more fundamental issue? Not that I'm saying there's a magic solution to it, but getting caught up in debates regarding personal responsibility vs. collective safety nets is a distraction, if the claim is that the earlier generation was "better off," because it's about amount, not just method, of compensation.

I find it rather strange that this gets brought up in this forum of all places. That people don't earn enough to afford their own retirement is just wrong.

Totally separate point (one which I agree with), but isn't the "get less" (which is different from whether they get "enough") claim a large piece of the source of the failure to reach expectations described in the article being discussed in this thread?

matchewed

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2013, 08:58:52 AM »
Notwithstanding that there is some underfunding, there is also pension guarantee coverage of many private pensions through the PBGC (paid by insurance premiums levied on the pensions/sponsors), so from a beneficiaries point of view, 88% isn't just 88%.

Also, the bigger point regarding wages not increasing sufficiently to allow one to "buy their own [equivalent] pension" still stands, and I would have thought that was the bigger issue. Benefit worth $X was available to many in an earlier generation and for most in a later generation has been replaced with benefit worth less than $X (possibly $). Isn't that the more fundamental issue? Not that I'm saying there's a magic solution to it, but getting caught up in debates regarding personal responsibility vs. collective safety nets is a distraction, if the claim is that the earlier generation was "better off," because it's about amount, not just method, of compensation.

I find it rather strange that this gets brought up in this forum of all places. That people don't earn enough to afford their own retirement is just wrong.

Totally separate point (one which I agree with), but isn't the "get less" (which is different from whether they get "enough") claim a large piece of the source of the failure to reach expectations described in the article being discussed in this thread?

I'm not sure you can separate those two things so easily. We're buying more stuff and have more than "enough" than ever before even though we "get less." The money is being spent inefficiently which puts the onus back on the individual or cultural values rather than putting that onus on corporations to pay more when they just don't give a shit about you. So I can either whine that I don't make enough (I make more than enough) or I can adjust my lifestyle to compensate for these "let downs." I'm fully Gen Y, I make less than household median, I am still at a 50%+ savings rate, and live in one of the most expensive states in the US. Although my life is only an anecdote I think that broad generalizations of Gen Y being somehow disadvantaged is laughable, they have more opportunities to choose their own path than any other generation before them and the only thing they can focus on is that the things other generations had/have and they don't (to use more generalizations).

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2013, 10:22:54 AM »
I think Baby Boomers are the most entitled generation of all.

This is the generation that:
...
- had low housing prices when they bought homes and are now selling them to Gen Y'ers for high prices (many of whom can't afford to buy)
...

First thing that I thought of when you mentioned that point was my dad talking about the 17% interest rate he had on his mortgage when he bought our home, when 'you were crazy to pay it, but you did it anyway'.

I'd have to dig more to see some housing prices adjusted for inflation, etc... But just figured I would point that out!

Undecided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2013, 10:36:49 AM »

Although my life is only an anecdote I think that broad generalizations of Gen Y being somehow disadvantaged is laughable, they have more opportunities to choose their own path than any other generation before them and the only thing they can focus on is that the things other generations had/have and they don't (to use more generalizations).

That may be, but the claim in the article was that the reason for some apparent unhappiness is that reality<expectations; what I think you're saying is that expectations are either irrelevant or should be adjusted to reflect reality, but what others have been saying, on the (normal) retirement front anyway, is that reality is being misunderstood. Again, I think those are separate issues.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2013, 10:38:30 AM »
I think Baby Boomers are the most entitled generation of all.

This is the generation that:
...
- had low housing prices when they bought homes and are now selling them to Gen Y'ers for high prices (many of whom can't afford to buy)
...

First thing that I thought of when you mentioned that point was my dad talking about the 17% interest rate he had on his mortgage when he bought our home, when 'you were crazy to pay it, but you did it anyway'.

I'd have to dig more to see some housing prices adjusted for inflation, etc... But just figured I would point that out!

I'm sure the purchase price of that home was insanely low relative to today's market.

grantmeaname

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2013, 11:14:38 AM »
The real purchase price? I'd be surprised if it was. The nominal certain price? Certainly.

arebelspy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2013, 11:18:07 AM »
The real purchase price? I'd be surprised if it was. The nominal certain price? Certainly.

Maybe not compared to today's market, which is still somewhat undervalued, but it was probably lower than the historical norm.

Higher interest rate generally equates to a lower purchase price (since most people buy on monthly payments), so if one paid 17% interest rate, they probably paid a decently low real purchase price, then were able to refi to a lower rate when rates dropped.
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Jamesqf

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2013, 11:22:29 AM »
Please don't troll, Jamesqf.

Humm...  A previous poster makes the unsupported claim that Baby Boomers were/are exceptionally privileged; I challenge that, with supporting details from my own experience, and I'm the one trolling?  Run that one by me again, please.

Quote
That is clearly not an unpaid (or underpaid) internship.

True, which rather refutes the OP's implication that a) all internships are underpaid, and b) that the evil baby boomer management of companies who provide internships are profiting excessively from them.

grantmeaname

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2013, 11:24:12 AM »
Higher interest rate generally equates to a lower purchase price (since most people buy on monthly payments), so if one paid 17% interest rate, they probably paid a decently low real purchase price, then were able to refi to a lower rate when rates dropped.
Higher real interest rates, yes. But the last time mortgages were at 17%, wasn't inflation also in the teens?

FunkyStickman

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2013, 11:33:01 AM »
I much preferred the response from a "successful" Gen Y journalist: http://aweinstein.kinja.com/fuck-you-im-gen-y-and-i-dont-feel-special-or-entitl-1333588443
This article is just a petulant little kid bitching that he chose a poorly-paid profession. Didn't he know that when he went in?

Absolutely. His quote:
"After 9/11 and marriage, I was laid off and we had six figures of debt"

There's your problem right there. Making 40K and living like 100K doesn't work.

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2013, 11:43:58 AM »

Overall I am somewhat confused by the reaction to this article.  Does it generalize GenY'ers as a little bit complainypants and entitled?  Sure it does.  Is that generalization correct?  IMO... sure.  Does that generalization apply to every single GenY'er out there?  Of course not, that's why it's called a generalization.  It's generally true but not 100% true.  If it doesn't apply to you, that's cool.  And I would expect that for most MMM fans it wouldn't apply.  (Another generalization.)

Are boomers generally also complainypants and entitle?.  Of course they are, though probably in different ways.  In fact, it's usually their complainypants/entitled feelings that built the GenY'ers.  The whole "GenY isn't entitled!  You are!" is just plain silly.

The "entitled American complainypants" is an ongoing theme in MMM circles.  I just don't see why folks get their feelers hurt by it.  If it doesn't apply to you... chortle, shake your head and move on.  If it does... think what you can do to fix it.

grantmeaname

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2013, 11:56:23 AM »
Is that generalization correct?  IMO... sure.
Well, this is the point we disagree on. It's not about whether or not some members of any generation have any given characteristic, it's about whether a statement like that is even meaningful when applied across such an enormous and diverse group. I've never seen a generalization like that supported by anything but anecdotes.

thepokercab

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2013, 12:14:24 PM »
As a member of gen-y, this article seemed to some up my existence more closely:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/09/the-cheapest-generation/309060/

I live in a city, don't have a car or a house (i rent) and don't anticipate having either for the forseeable future, and i'm just fine with that.  I think its overly simplistic to try to generalize entire generations.  My baby boom parents spent like drunken sailors, bought a suburban McMansion and just assume they'll be working until they keel over.  I went to college, with these same sort of spending habits ingrained in me, and immediately proceeded to max out two credit cards within my first semester.  But, i was lucky enough to meet my future wife (and then finally MMM!) who put me on a sane path.  Since then i've educated myself on debt, money management, investing etc.. and am now trying to educate my baby boomer parents, who look at me like i'm hippie crazy (what do you mean we should cancel cable!) 

I guess my point is that i think its all about education.  My anecdotal sense is as opposed to different generations having different mindsets or ambitions, the previous generation tends to influence the next one.  My wife understood the dangers of debt because her parents instilled that in her.  Mine did not. But the advantage us gen y'ers have is that in this day and age there is just simply so much free and abundant knowledge just waiting to be read and acted upon.   

Spork

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2013, 12:45:12 PM »
Is that generalization correct?  IMO... sure.
Well, this is the point we disagree on. It's not about whether or not some members of any generation have any given characteristic, it's about whether a statement like that is even meaningful when applied across such an enormous and diverse group. I've never seen a generalization like that supported by anything but anecdotes.

It's absolutely anecdotal.  And I think you'd be hard pressed to find scientific* data to prove either side.  But that doesn't make generalizations wrong or not useful.  If the non-complainy/entitled people are the folks that really stand out and the complainypants are the norm: it generalizes.

The point of the article (IMO) wasn't to point at a group and laugh.  It wasn't meant to be an encompassing scientific study.  It was "hey... feeling a little dissatisfied with your life?  Wanna fix that?"  If the first answer is "no"... then the second question is moot.

I'd say it was quite in line with MMM's observations, but with a narrow audience.

And the reason I saw the article in the first place was that several different GenY'ers I know posted it, fit the mold and complained they weren't happy.

---
*because, let's get real.  We're talking observational/survey type of study, which is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to the scientific method.  And we're talking social science, which isn't overly <ahem> scientific.

Jamesqf

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2013, 02:16:29 PM »
I live in a city, don't have a car or a house (i rent) and don't anticipate having either for the forseeable future, and i'm just fine with that.  I think its overly simplistic to try to generalize entire generations.  My baby boom parents spent like drunken sailors, bought a suburban McMansion...

Yes, over-generalizations.  It might be useful to ask not what your parents are doing now, but what they did when they were the age you are now.  Now I'm sorry if some people think this is trolling, but at current Gen-Y ages, I was spending a lot of time living out of my car.  Nowadays I have a rural place which, though it's not a McMansion, probably costs as much as one.  What's the difference between me then and me now?  Several decades of experience, education, and saving.  And I bet it will be much the same for the Gen-Y folks, several decades down the road.

livetogive

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2013, 02:38:08 PM »
I get angry when a Boomer or Gen X'er condescendingly characterizes my generation as "entitled".  I suppose I fall under Gen Y and I am very unhappy in my career, but my response to the inflammatory tone of that article is this:

1.  What moron couldn't get rich during the biggest economic upswing in this country's history?  Just buy a house and invest modestly in the stock market any time in the early to mid 90's and you're good.  Don't confuse systematic gain with your own personal Alpha.

2.  The previous 2 generations routinely call us entitled, yet they spent our financial futures on their own government entitlements and handouts.  Furthermore, they sent us off to fight 2 wars for the sole purpose of keeping themselves rich. 

3.  I have worked and do work harder than my boss and most Gen X'ers who pride themselves on their work ethic and I am not alone. The sad fact about a bad economy is if the tide is falling your ship isn't likely to move up.  How many 100 hour weeks have you logged this year?

Feel free to flame away, but Boomers/Gen X: I'm sick of you complaining about entitlement mentalities.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:39:54 PM by TurboLT »

grantmeaname

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2013, 02:51:24 PM »
Quote
The point of the article (IMO) wasn't to point at a group and laugh.  It wasn't meant to be an encompassing scientific study.  It was "hey... feeling a little dissatisfied with your life?  Wanna fix that?"  If the first answer is "no"... then the second question is moot.
I didn't get that impression at all. The tone of the whole article is so condescending that it's hard for me to imagine anyone reading it in the spirit of help, and harder to imagine that it was written with that in mind.

Quote
We're talking observational/survey type of study, which is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to the scientific method.  And we're talking social science, which isn't overly <ahem> scientific.
Both statements are overly broad and untrue even as useless throwaway generalities.

Undecided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2013, 03:18:39 PM »

2.  The previous 2 generations routinely call us entitled, yet they spent our financial futures on their own government entitlements and handouts.  Furthermore, they sent us off to fight 2 wars for the sole purpose of keeping themselves rich. 

Feel free to flame away, but Boomers/Gen X: I'm sick of you complaining about entitlement mentalities.

With 70 million + baby boomers and 70 million + in Gen Y, we ~40 million Gen Xers are obviously the source of the problem (I know, the "generation" cutoffs are arbitrary, but I didn't pick them). Just by numbers, "we've" never had and never will have mass to have much of an impact as a block, compared to those others.

arebelspy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2013, 03:24:17 PM »
I get angry when a Boomer or Gen X'er condescendingly characterizes my generation as "entitled".
...
Feel free to flame away, but Boomers/Gen X: I'm sick of you complaining about entitlement mentalities.

Are you okay when us fellow Gen Y'ers do it?  Cause many of us agree with it.

I get angry when a Boomer or Gen X'er condescendingly characterizes my generation as "entitled".
...
Feel free to flame away, but Boomers/Gen X: I'm sick of you complaining about entitlement mentalities.

Are you okay when us fellow Gen Y'ers do it?  Cause many of us agree with it.

I get angry when a Boomer or Gen X'er condescendingly characterizes my generation as "entitled".  I suppose I fall under Gen Y and I am very unhappy in my career, but my response to the inflammatory tone of that article is this:

1.  What moron couldn't get rich during the biggest economic upswing in this country's history?  Just buy a house and invest modestly in the stock market any time in the early to mid 90's and you're good.  Don't confuse systematic gain with your own personal Alpha.

Sure, but that doesn't mean there haven't been tons of opportunity in the last decade as well, especially the last 5 years (great opportunities in housing, in the market, etc.).

2.  The previous 2 generations routinely call us entitled, yet they spent our financial futures on their own government entitlements and handouts.  Furthermore, they sent us off to fight 2 wars for the sole purpose of keeping themselves rich. 

Really?  Did you fight in a war?  What percent of Gen Y'ers did serve our country in that capacity?

(This is not a slam on our military men/women at all, I have great respect for them.  But I don't have respect for people using the "wars" as an excuse as to why they personally couldn't get ahead.)

3.  I have worked and do work harder than my boss and most Gen X'ers who pride themselves on their work ethic and I am not alone. The sad fact about a bad economy is if the tide is falling your ship isn't likely to move up.  How many 100 hour weeks have you logged this year?

0.  By choice.
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Undecided

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2013, 03:31:55 PM »

3.  How many 100 hour weeks have you logged this year?


Believe it or not, you didn't invent the 100 hour week, and believe it or not, nobody (but maybe you) will expect them of you later in your career.

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #92 on: September 19, 2013, 03:41:43 PM »
With regards to 80+ hour weeks, I strongly believe that the people most likely to work them are typically to be doing it for show and to little benefit to their employer.

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #93 on: September 19, 2013, 03:44:41 PM »
With regards to 80+ hour weeks, I strongly believe that the people most likely to work them are typically to be doing it for show and to little benefit to their employer.

...and that if you want your employer to expect you to work 80+ hours a week, then work 80+ hours a week.  Do it for a little while and it will be expected of you.  You most likely won't get bigger raises.  (My experience anyway.... ymmv.  Standard disclaimers for various professions where 80+ hours is expected: Doctor, lawyer, ...)

I've flat out told bosses if they want 80 hours occasionally when the shit hits the fan: I'm there.  If they want it all the time, hire 2 people instead of 1.

daverobev

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #94 on: September 19, 2013, 03:55:06 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.


S/he might have something, but is it called "Social Security" in Canada?

Why does that matter?

I'm sure they have an equivalent, Old Age Security or whatever.  The point remains the same, regardless of them being in Canada.

OAS pays about 500$ a month if you max out the benefits (which few people can do).  6 grand a year or less is not exactly what I'd call a pension . . . But I'm spoiled by my habit of eating three times a day I guess.

OAS isn't the end of it, though. You'll get either CPP, if you've worked, or GIS, if you haven't - on a sliding scale.

I was quite surprised how generous it is, actually, if you have nothing. $800 a month? I'm good!

destron

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #95 on: September 19, 2013, 04:09:43 PM »
I get angry when a Boomer or Gen X'er condescendingly characterizes my generation as "entitled".  I suppose I fall under Gen Y and I am very unhappy in my career, but my response to the inflammatory tone of that article is this:

1.  What moron couldn't get rich during the biggest economic upswing in this country's history?  Just buy a house and invest modestly in the stock market any time in the early to mid 90's and you're good.  Don't confuse systematic gain with your own personal Alpha.

2.  The previous 2 generations routinely call us entitled, yet they spent our financial futures on their own government entitlements and handouts.  Furthermore, they sent us off to fight 2 wars for the sole purpose of keeping themselves rich. 

3.  I have worked and do work harder than my boss and most Gen X'ers who pride themselves on their work ethic and I am not alone. The sad fact about a bad economy is if the tide is falling your ship isn't likely to move up.  How many 100 hour weeks have you logged this year?

Feel free to flame away, but Boomers/Gen X: I'm sick of you complaining about entitlement mentalities.

I honestly can't believe you read the article because your points do not address it in the slightest. The article does not say:

1. Previous generations are better than Gen-Y'ers

2. Gen-Y'ers aren't working hard

3. It is no more or less difficult to succeed today than it was X years in the past.

If you read the article, you will see that it is attempting to describe why many Gen-Y'ers feel unhappy. Feel free to comment or disagree on that, but right now you are only injecting your own feelings of discontent into the discussion. IMO that says more about what you think about Gen-Y than what other people think.

galaxie

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2013, 05:26:47 PM »
My husband and I are early Gen Y: we worked hard to get engineering degrees (I have a graduate degree) from a fairly cheap state university.  We have good jobs now and feel like we're making progress at them.  I don't think this article is about us.

But that article is totally about my SIL (mid Gen Y).  She didn't get good enough grades to go to the state school, so she went to an expensive private university instead.  She didn't pay attention to studying there enough to get a job in her field (or admitted to grad school in her field).  When asked what career she wants, she says she wants to cure cancer, but she doesn't want to take the tedious lab technician jobs that would get her in the door.  High expectations, not a lot of work ethic.

This might not be generational.  It could also be an eldest/youngest child.  I don't think it's unique to Gen Y - Pippin was first produced in 1972.  (It's about a young man who thinks he has to do something extraordinary with his life and follow his passion, and it turns out to be a terrible idea.)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippin_(musical)

lifejoy

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2013, 05:29:39 PM »
BAHAHA great link!!! In the past year, having graduated and trying to get my special self a job... the real world has been a major wakeup call. It was a shock when the magical garden of unicorns and flowers did not knock on my door. However, a little adversity has done me a lot of good.

Fascinating link, I'm surprised I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for the share :)

MrsPete

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2013, 09:23:56 PM »
I'm right on the cusp of the line that divides the Baby Boomers from the Gen Xers.  My husband is technically one of the last of the Boomers, while I'm one of the first Gen Xers.  He and I can identify with both groups. 

The article nailed us.   We were brought up to believe exactly what it says:  We were encouraged to get a college education.  We were pushed to choose jobs well-suited to our personalities and talents, and although I don't remember anyone specifically saying, "Choose safe and secure", that theme was promoted pretty heavily.  I remember being told that I could work towards anything I chose, but I never thought I'd be a pro-athlete or musician; I always knew I didn't have that talent -- no one ever tried to spare my feelings with undeserved trophies, and rather than growing up with a poor self-image, I developed a realistic view of my ability range.  I expected to get a job that I liked and to work with pleasant people, but I never adopted the idea that my personal fulfillment would center around my career.  Rather, we were taught (mainly by example) that happiness and fulfillment comes from a happy marriage, raising children, and maintaining strong ties to family and friends.  We expected that we would work hard, and that we'd have good days and bad days, and it'd take us years to get past entry-level; regardless, we always expected that the highlights of our lives would not take place in an office.  Instead, we expected that time with family, holiday celebrations, and so forth would be the defining moments of our lives.  We put effort into making sure we had a nice Christmas, everyone got something nice on his birthday, and we had a big cookout for Labor Day . . . but we also expected to eat beans and rice on ordinary weeknights.  We moved out of our parents' houses, and we didn't return -- but we lived 4 girls in a 2-bedroom apartment and had hand-me-down furniture.  When we were first out on our own, not only did we not have cell phones -- we didn't always have a land line.  We waited for years 'til we could afford cable TV, cars with air conditioning and a radio.  Few of us borrowed for school, but we also didn't see the whole world as an educational option -- we attended the least expensive school nearest our homes.   

I'm 25 years out of college, and, yes, the article is right:  I have succeeded beyond my expectations.  My husband and I have certainly worked for everything we have, but we've accumulated more than we expected was possible for two kids who came from working poor backgrounds.  Therefore, we are happy. 

I do see that today's youth, Gen Y, buys into some of these ideas, but they've "upped the ante".  I do hear phrases like, "Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life" or "Follow your passion".  These phrases were not part of my childhood.  I do see lots of students who are very unrealistic about their futures:  Kids who are still playing JV ball as sophomores but expect a full-ride scholarship at a division 1 school.  I see LOTS of students who insist that they must have "THE college experience" at their dream school . . .  cost and debt be damned!  I specifically remember a senior who gave a speech about "The American Dream", and it was about how everyone dreams of being famous -- that definitely was not an expectation of my generation.  Also, Gen Y seems to expect to play a lot more than my generation:  My younger co-workers travel probably 4Xs more than I do, almost all of them have nicer cars than us old folks, all of them have iPhones, they go to concerts and out to eat regularly.  I do these things occasionally now, but when I was just out of college, funsie-spending was rare, rare, rare for me.  It seems that when I was just out of college, we expected to splurge a bit on holidays and celebrations . . . but my younger co-workers splurge just about every weekend.  Thing is, I don't think they realize just how much "more" they have than previous generations; they've always had these things, and "not having" is alien to them.  They are definitely more comfortable with debt than my generation, and -- again -- they don't seem to grasp that older generations don't feel the same way.

It's a mistake to say that Gen Yers don't want to work.  My younger co-workers are not afraid to roll their sleeves up and get their hands dirty.  They volunteer for after-school activities, and they are team players.  In general, I have no complaints about them as co-workers.  But they do suffer a bit from the "I am special, unique and different" thing, and they don't seem to know it.  They do expect pats on the back for doing what's expected.  And they seem less satisfied with the job than us older folks.  They fairly often discuss making a change to another job, going back for another degree, etc.  They are more willing to take risks, and they don't buy into the need for safety and stability as much as my generation.   

As for difficulties getting jobs, I'm not buying into this being a new problem.  I was poor as dirt in college, yet in the two years AFTER graduation, my lifestyle DECREASED.  I didn't fall into a good job right away, and I spent considerable effort in searching.  Even once I got that first "real job", it wasn't enough to support myself right away: I kept a second job for quite a while.  I never had an apartment all to myself; in fact, it was two years 'til I had a bedroom to myself!  But I never borrowed to up my lifestyle -- I saw it as a stage through which I had to move -- and most of my friends were the same.  It is compounded today by increased expectations and widespread student debt, but it's wrong to think that previous generations stepped out of college and into an easy life. 

I'm also not buying that jobs aren't out there.  Last summer I went to a family wedding, and I saw a bunch of extended family that I hadn't seen in years -- and a lot of cousins whose children are 4-8 years older than my own kids.  Without exception, the kids who were out of college were employed in their field.  About half of them had purchased houses.  None of them were living with their parents.  And none of these were silver-spoon kids; rather, they are the children of military men, truck drivers, nurses, secretaries, and teachers -- they're the children of solidly middle class parents.  The 20-somethings weren't necessarily rolling in the dough, but they seemed to be doing a little better than we were at their age.  It was encouraging to me as the mother of two teens.  Of course, every one of them had a highly-employable degree --  not a Psychology degree among them.

As to this-or-that generation having it better, those of us who are older can look back and see that we had some benefits that today's kids don't have.  Yeah, we bought our first house for 70K, but balance that against my first professional salary of 16K/year and a 9.something interest rate on that house.  And today's generation has some benefits that we didn't enjoy:  For example, internet shopping, ebay and Craigslist have made it easier to comparison shop for consumer goods.  Paying for long distance calls is a thing of the past.  Clothing costs much less today than it did in the past, mostly because styles are relaxed to the point that most of us don't need to purchase suits, jackets and other expensive items (nor do we have to pay the dry cleaning).  Do these things equal out?  I wouldn't pretend to have a comprehensive list ready at hand, but it's a mistake to believe that everything was wine and roses for past generations and total crap for today's youth.

Pensions.  Yeah, I've got one, but if I could go back in time and either have it . . . or have the money to invest on my own, I'm not sure what I'd choose.  Pensions are great in that you can't outlive your money, but they also tie you to one job all your life.  Older generations bought into this; workers stayed with the same company for 30-40 years and retired with the gold watch and the full pension.  If you believe statistics, few Gen Yers would ever stay with one company long enough to earn a pension.  Also, more and more families today are made up of two-career couples, and that affects pensions.  For example, twice my husband has been offered a job out of state . . . and twice  he's turned it down because after doing the math we've determined that the increase in his salary would not make up for me being forced to leave my pension plan.  Next, most people on this board are looking to work hard for 10 years or so, and then leave -- those are the people who'd never make it to the pension.  And don't overlook the fact that a pension is a gamble:  You work for 30 years, pay into the pension . . . and you might collect for 5 years, or you might collect for 50 years -- you can't know whether your "investment" will pay off or not.  In contrast, a 401K is YOURS.  If you die young, at least you have the compensation of knowing that your money will go to your spouse or your heirs. 

For me personally, with my live-forever genes, a pension is a good thing; still, I do worry about its stability.  But I'm glad that I have the pension AND my husband has a good 401K AND we have other assets.  No matter whether you have a pension or not, no one should base his or her retirement on one vehicle alone.

When I was in college, I realized that I didn't know nearly enough about money, so I spent hours in the college library reading everything I could about finance, investments, retirement, etc.  This was when 401Ks were still a developing concept (80s), and I read article after article about how they were superior to pensions because the employee had more control over his own money.  The key, of course, is that the employee also gets the responsibility.  With a pension, the company plays the part of Big Brother, and you trust him to do the right thing.   

Jamesqf

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Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2013, 10:39:43 PM »
MrsPete said most of what I wanted to say, probably better than I could have.  However, there are a few points she missed, maybe because they didn't fall within her personal experience.  So...

2.  The previous 2 generations routinely call us entitled, yet they spent our financial futures on their own government entitlements and handouts.

Would you care to point out just what "entitlements" I, or the majority of other Baby Boomers, have been getting?  (In the interest of full disclosure, I will say that, because I do what I do, some part of my personal earnings have at times come from government agencies like NSF, ONR, and DARPA, but I don't think you could really call that an entitlement.)  In fact, I see most of us, particularly the ones who've had a degree of financial success, paying a good bit more in taxes than we could ever reasonably expect to get back in benefits.

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Furthermore, they sent us off to fight 2 wars for the sole purpose of keeping themselves rich.

I don't want to digress into politics, but I have to say than anyone who honestly claims to believe this must be a really dedicated practitioner of autoproctology.

That aside, do you really think there were no wars which we Baby Boomers got to go fight?
 
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How many 100 hour weeks have you logged this year?

This year?  None, probably, depending on exactly what you count as work.  It's this thing called Financial Independence, which means I don't have to work more than I want to :-)  Now ask me how many 100-hour weeks I worked when I was in my 20s, why don't you?  And the answer is quite a few, when I could find work at all.