Author Topic: Generation Y and let downs..  (Read 10822 times)

Insanity

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
Generation Y and let downs..
« on: September 17, 2013, 09:26:23 PM »
I wasn't sure how to phrase the subject, but this is an intriguing way to look at how feelings about saving have evolved.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wait-but-why/generation-y-unhappy_b_3930620.html

arebelspy

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 10000
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 09:40:57 PM »
That was excellent, thanks for sharing.

I also liked this link embedded in the middle, about the gaining traction of the phrase "follow your passion": http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/09/solving-gen-ys-passion-problem/
A silent voice is as powerless as a silenced one.

-------------------------------------------------------

  The Cheat is a millionaire!

expatartist

  • Magnum
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
  • Age: 39
  • Location: A gigantic metropolis in China
    • Artwork &c
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 09:51:39 PM »
Thanks for the link, Insanity. Looking at the 'whys' behind career expectations and specifically savings - or not-saving - can be a real help/catalyst for change. It's something we've looked at a lot more closely since reading MMM.

mm31

  • Handlebar
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 09:56:16 PM »
Tired of seeing this pop-up on my news feed. I guess this explains everything that's wrong in the world including high unemployment, mass spying and growing inequality?

This is played-out and full of over-generalizations

Insanity

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 09:59:02 PM »
That was excellent, thanks for sharing.

I also liked this link embedded in the middle, about the gaining traction of the phrase "follow your passion": http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/09/solving-gen-ys-passion-problem/

I didn't even read that article, thanks for pointing it out.  I found this phrase in it:
Quote
We currently lack, for example, a good phrase for describing those tough first years on a job where you grind away at building up skills while being shoveled less-than-inspiring entry-level work.

This describes me right now.  I'm doing a part of my overall role that is different for me.  I used to focus on architecture and static analysis (source code) of software, but now I'm in a role that is more dynamic testing (i.e.: from the user interface). It's a big adjustment and I don't have that drive for it and it's causing me to work slower and fight through issues - which at this point in my career I don't really want to do.  But doing it will enable me to be better at my overall job (software security) even though I don't think it is the most valuable aspect of that role.

Thanks again for pointing that out!

arebelspy

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 10000
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 10:15:31 PM »
Tired of seeing this pop-up on my news feed. I guess this explains everything that's wrong in the world including high unemployment, mass spying and growing inequality?

This is played-out and full of over-generalizations

Okay. No. No opinion. Yes; that doesn't mean it's inaccurate.
A silent voice is as powerless as a silenced one.

-------------------------------------------------------

  The Cheat is a millionaire!

A440

  • Bristles
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 10:59:16 PM »
Maybe this is a little off topic, but I don't think following your passion necessarily means making money from your passion.  Charles Ives was a fabulous composer who worked as an insurance agent.  And in many ways, I think that gave him a lot of freedom to write music however he wanted without having to worry too much about tenure or production or etc.

arebelspy

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 10000
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 11:17:43 PM »
Maybe this is a little off topic, but I don't think following your passion necessarily means making money from your passion.  Charles Ives was a fabulous composer who worked as an insurance agent.  And in many ways, I think that gave him a lot of freedom to write music however he wanted without having to worry too much about tenure or production or etc.

Sure, and I agree, but that's not how it's pitched, IMO.  It's sold as "do what you love and the money will follow" - I.e. major in what sounds fun, not practical.

That may or may not be good advice, but the advice is never (or at least I've never seen it as) "Pursue something practical for work, and follow your passion as a side hobby."
A silent voice is as powerless as a silenced one.

-------------------------------------------------------

  The Cheat is a millionaire!

HappierAtHome

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Location: Australia
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2013, 12:00:35 AM »
Damn, this is so true.

And the thing is, that for my generation we HAVE got ahead relatively quickly, because we've had the mining boom in Australia. Now that it's potentially ending... I don't wanna know what will happen for a lot of people my age who have never experienced any hardship at all.

Also: I find that not having facebook makes me 5000% happier about my life. Google facebook depression.
Read my journal and help me figure out how to get to FI faster!
 http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/journals/young-australian-can't-wait-for-fi/

DebtDerp

  • Handlebar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2013, 12:14:28 AM »
Yes, of course it could have nothing to with the fact that thousands upon thousands of Gen Y’ers are graduating into the worst job market in a generation, often with more student debt than the mortgage on their parent’s first house, being forced, through economic circumstances, to move back home, being told to go to college so you never have to flip burgers, being asked why with your new degree you’re too good to get a job flipping burgers, finally getting that job but finding out that it’s only 29 hours a week or worst an unpaid internship.

This article is such utter and complete grade a bull shit. How about actually talking to some of these “GYPSYs” instead of looking at Google word trends.

If only millennials would stop thinking they were special then they would be happy! Get off my Lawn!

/rant
StudentLoanRAGE --  A blog about another 20-something with way too much student debt.

rockstache

  • Handlebar
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
  • Location: Northeast
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2013, 07:41:19 AM »

Also: I find that not having facebook makes me 5000% happier about my life. Google facebook depression.

I think this is 100% dependent on who your friends are. If you are selective about your friends, and surround yourself with good ones, Facebook can be extremely uplifting, and not depressing or competetive at all.

arebelspy

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 10000
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2013, 08:04:18 AM »
Yes, of course it could have nothing to with the fact that thousands upon thousands of Gen Y’ers are graduating into the worst job market in a generation, often with more student debt than the mortgage on their parent’s first house, being forced, through economic circumstances, to move back home, being told to go to college so you never have to flip burgers, being asked why with your new degree you’re too good to get a job flipping burgers, finally getting that job but finding out that it’s only 29 hours a week or worst an unpaid internship.

This article is such utter and complete grade a bull shit. How about actually talking to some of these “GYPSYs” instead of looking at Google word trends.

If only millennials would stop thinking they were special then they would be happy! Get off my Lawn!

/rant

Sure, yeah, first world problems are tough.  But when about 91% of people aged 20-34 are employed, I don't think things are as terrible as all that.

What don't you agree with the article on?  Do you think most don't think "I'm special"?  Isn't part of the problem of your "can't get a job with new degree" due to the fact that they were told "follow your passion" and the like?  Do you think you aren't special?  Do most of your friends think they are, or aren't special?

Sure, there are other factors that the article doesn't describe, but that doesn't make it all "bull shit."

Maybe I agree because it describes nearly everyone I know (FWIW, I'm in my late 20s and fall into the demographic nicely, including majoring in something I love - Philosophy - over something practical), but maybe it doesn't describe the people you know.

Why, exactly, do you disagree with it?
A silent voice is as powerless as a silenced one.

-------------------------------------------------------

  The Cheat is a millionaire!

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2013, 08:43:07 AM »
Sure, yeah, first world problems are tough.  But when about 91% of people aged 20-34 are employed, I don't think things are as terrible as all that.

What don't you agree with the article on?  Do you think most don't think "I'm special"?  Isn't part of the problem of your "can't get a job with new degree" due to the fact that they were told "follow your passion" and the like?  Do you think you aren't special?  Do most of your friends think they are, or aren't special?

It would be interesting to see how many of those employed people are working temp jobs or minimum wage and compare them with numbers from 10, 20, 30, and 40 years ago.

I'm 32 and this article doesn't really describe me or my friends at all.  We're engineers . . . we worked hard through school for a degree that would likely pay well.  We've all been working for enough companies (and through enough rounds of lay-offs to know that we're not particularly special, and we're really aiming for a comfortable life similar to how our parents live.  We're also generally happy.  None of my close friends really put on airs or pretend to be doing much better than they are from what I can tell.  Maybe the fact that everyone's starting to pump out babies changes this somewhat?

I did like the unicorn puking a rainbow on the 'Lucy's Career' graph though, so at least it wasn't a total waste to read the article.

nawhite

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 573
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 08:44:50 AM »
I much preferred the response from a "successful" Gen Y journalist: http://aweinstein.kinja.com/fuck-you-im-gen-y-and-i-dont-feel-special-or-entitl-1333588443

mpbaker22

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2013, 08:45:57 AM »
It's interesting that the boomers call all the younger generations entitled.  Who is it that has received the most from other generations from the government? They've failed to fund all of their old-age government programs, and look who is left paying the bill.

hybrid

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1297
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 08:49:52 AM »
Also: I find that not having facebook makes me 5000% happier about my life. Google facebook depression.

+1.  I have a large social circle.  Facebook revealed to me just how many people in that circle don't share (m)any of the values that I do, even though we may have gone to high school together, share a common hobby, once ran in the same circle years back, etc.  I did not like it after a while.

I ditched my Facebook account and have not missed it one iota.  I know a lot of people love it and that's just fine, but I found it divisive.  Better to participate in a forum like this where the values are a lot closer and the arguments (in the good sense of the word) are typically better reasoned, articulated, and respectful.
One frugal day at a time.  Rinse.  Repeat.

Spork

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 09:10:23 AM »
It's interesting that the boomers call all the younger generations entitled.  Who is it that has received the most from other generations from the government? They've failed to fund all of their old-age government programs, and look who is left paying the bill.

Oh, I think they're both broken.  They're just broken differently. 

It's funny that the road to hell we are on is paved with good intent.  From my own personal observations (which may or may not generalize correctly) ... the more coddling and help the parents have given their children, the more they've crippled them.  This is true of my parents' generation (toward the boomers) and true of the boomer generation (towards the GenY'ers).    I'm not saying "parents should never help their children"...  but I don't think the way they're helping is ... helping.

brewer12345

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1340
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 09:27:02 AM »
Nice generallized bullcrap.  I heard the same thing about me as a young adult and I am the tail end of Gen X.  But I also enjoyed the puking unicorn.

Every "generation" (which is in itself a bullcrap construct) gets idiotic, insulting generalizations made about it by journalists, people who are trying to sell management flavor-of-the-month books to idiots, and the dumber demographers/historitians/loudmouths.  Ignore it.  Get on with life.
"It happened to me that I drank one beer after another..."

- The Good Soldier Svejk

Insanity

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 10:05:33 AM »
Please realize that those who disagree with the article are missing the point.  I am a Gen Y'er.  I managed to fall in love with Computer Science when I was in middle school.  I graduated with a degree in it.  I have been part of the Internet Revolution.  And I have been fortunate enough to remain on the "cutting edge" of what is in demand within computer science (currently, application security).   

The percentage of 25-29 year olds with bachelor's degrees has almost tripled in 40 years.  Think about that. Does that mean it is getting easier or does that mean parents are doing everything to make sure their kids get an education so they don't have to work the hard service based fields (farmers, construction workers, etc.).   

There are only going to be a limited number of jobs which use college degrees based on the number of businesses that start up.  Combine that with an increase in consumerism and ease to access to credit and you have a combination of things. 

BlueMR2

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 746
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 10:11:50 AM »
I also liked this link embedded in the middle, about the gaining traction of the phrase "follow your passion": http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/09/solving-gen-ys-passion-problem/

"follow your passion" is the worst advice I've ever heard.  Passions change with the season (or in my case, every 5-7 years).  Just about the time you get good enough at something that people will pay you for it, you're moving on.  It might be fun, but I'd be living under a bridge somewhere if I did that.  I may not need a LOT of money to survive, but I do need *some*.  :-)

dragoncar

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 3510
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 10:27:24 AM »
I thought the article was brilliant.  I'm tail end gen x/early millennial (it varies depending on who is drawing the line that day) but much of this stuff resonated with me.  Luckily or unluckily, I was disabused of my unlimited potential for greatness when graduating from engineering directly after the dotcom bust. 

I am still pretty special though. :-)

Jack

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2013, 11:10:47 AM »
Yes, of course it could have nothing to with the fact that thousands upon thousands of Gen Y’ers are graduating into the worst job market in a generation, often with more student debt than the mortgage on their parent’s first house, being forced, through economic circumstances, to move back home, being told to go to college so you never have to flip burgers, being asked why with your new degree you’re too good to get a job flipping burgers, finally getting that job but finding out that it’s only 29 hours a week or worst an unpaid internship.

And then they top it off with "Now you're starting to learn what the 'real world' is like" when you're going on 30, have been a married homeowner for several years already, and spent 2 of the last 3 years unemployed! My (baby-boomer) mom said that to me the other day, and I consider it a miracle of self-control that I didn't start yelling and cussing at her.

Rebecca Stapler

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
    • Stapler Confessions
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 11:22:26 AM »
I am on the cusp of Gen Y and X, and some of this article resonated with me in the sense that there wasn't a lot of talk about how hard work got really successful people to where they are. I have seen some of my friends flailing about for their "passion," which makes me sad, and I have seen people younger than me have an entitled attitude about work that is "beneath" them. A first-year associate at my firm, who is 10 years younger than me, was really disillusioned with the grunt work he got. I wasn't really surprised by it (we started at the same time) -- that's the whole point of having associates: So the partners don't have to do the crappy work! But the idea of "paying dues" with grunt work in order to get to do the good stuff was lost on him.
Digging out of Debt with Frugal Living and Free Batteries: http://staplerconfessions.com/
Saving on Groceries: http://makinglemonadeblog.com/5-ways-to-save-money-on-groceries/
Make Money while Clearing out Clutter: http://makinglemonadeblog.com/turn-your-spring-cleaning-into-cash/

thefinancialstudent

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 751
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 11:47:08 AM »
Not sure how I feel about this article. I'm Gen Y and I don't know if I feel entitled to success/great career. I feel like my parents and my friends' parents expect success. I think I feel entitled to a decent wage, considering what my degree has cost me and I do have a skillset that not everyone has. Not sure if that makes me confident or arrogant?

I do see the entitled side sometimes though. A few friends of mine want the lifestyle their 50 year old parents have now but they don't see the work and sacrifice it took to get there.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 12:39:13 PM by thefinancialstudent »

DebtDerp

  • Handlebar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 12:26:35 PM »
Sure, yeah, first world problems are tough.  But when about 91% of people aged 20-34 are employed, I don't think things are as terrible as all that.

What don't you agree with the article on?  Do you think most don't think "I'm special"?  Isn't part of the problem of your "can't get a job with new degree" due to the fact that they were told "follow your passion" and the like?  Do you think you aren't special?  Do most of your friends think they are, or aren't special?

Sure, there are other factors that the article doesn't describe, but that doesn't make it all "bull shit."

Maybe I agree because it describes nearly everyone I know (FWIW, I'm in my late 20s and fall into the demographic nicely, including majoring in something I love - Philosophy - over something practical), but maybe it doesn't describe the people you know.

Why, exactly, do you disagree with it?

First off, your numbers are wrong. It’s actually 70% of the population aged 20 to 34 that are employed.

The problem I have with this article is that it eschews things like actual facts to put forth a contrived narrative that if only Gen Y’ers stopped feeling special and worked harder everything will work itself out. This is the bullshit that I am talking about.

There are so many assumptions that the author makes about Lucy that have no foundation in reality but are supposed to represent a larger portion of Generation Y.

Here are a few:

Assumption: “She’s probably started off her career perfectly well”

Reality: “Even those lucky enough to be employed are often struggling. Little more than half are working full time—compared with about 80% of the population at large—and 12% earn minimum wage or less. The median weekly wage for young workers has fallen more than 5% since 2007”

WSJ

“Part-time work has made up 77 percent of the job growth so far this year.”

Huffpo

Assumption: “To be clear, GYPSYs want economic prosperity just like their parents did—they just also want to be fulfilled by their career in a way their parents didn't think about as much.“

Reality: “Respondents between the ages of 18 and 24 were most likely to define the American Dream as being debt-free and least likely to define it as joining the 1% or retiring financially secure at 65.”

Credit.com Study

This also reflects something I see all of the time. Young adults just want to be able to afford their student loan payments and be able to get an apartment and maybe be able to afford a night out with friends. A fulfilling career comes later.

Assumption: “The current world is bubbling with opportunity for an ambitious person to find flowery, fulfilling success.  The specific direction may be unclear, but it'll work itself out—just dive in somewhere.”

Reality: “one in five 25-34 year-old workers is failing to find work that matches his or her education”

Globe and Mail (This is for Canada but still relevant I think.)

Yeah, you can say I am cherry picking stats out of articles but at least I am making an argument that has some kind of evidence to support it instead of making blanket statements with no basis in reality.

The problem as I see it is that it's not an entitlement mindset to think "hey I just spent $100k on an education, I should have a better job than working retail for $10 per hour." Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
StudentLoanRAGE --  A blog about another 20-something with way too much student debt.

Insanity

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 12:32:45 PM »
The problem as I see it is that it's not an entitlement mindset to think "hey I just spent $100k on an education, I should have a better job than working retail for $10 per hour." Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

That is the definition of entitlement.  "I just did xyz, I deserve abc".


thefinancialstudent

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 751
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 12:45:46 PM »
There's differing connotations to "entitlement".

There's the "She thinks she's entitled to a brand new car on her 16th birthday." and there's the "I paid into SS for 20 years. I'm entitled to a benefit."

I don't think a college graduate is the former if they had higher hopes than $10 an hour.

Jack

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 01:06:36 PM »
I don't think a college graduate is the former if they had higher hopes than $10 an hour.

Unless their degree is an Associate's in underwater basket-weaving from the idiotscomepayus.edu (or something less hyperbole-ish but similarly useless).

Insanity

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2013, 01:07:50 PM »
There's differing connotations to "entitlement".

There's the "She thinks she's entitled to a brand new car on her 16th birthday." and there's the "I paid into SS for 20 years. I'm entitled to a benefit."

I don't think a college graduate is the former if they had higher hopes than $10 an hour.

Paying for a college degree is not the same paying into a program that is designed to provide for you when you leave the work force.  Two completely different animals.

I'm not saying that the college student didn't do any work, but the expectation that someone else is going to pay for your services is an entitlement when no one has to pay for your services at all.


Insanity

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 01:14:12 PM »
Just to be clear - my argument is again about supply and demand.  There is a global workforce and even within the US most families are two working parents.  That means the work force is up.  The expectation that you are going to go to college and get a job right out of school (like a lot of parents did when the workforce was smaller back in the baby boomer days) is invalid.  It relies on the assumption that some company out there has a need for a service you provide at a price point you want rather than a price point they are willing to pay (given the supply within the work global work force).  College grads have had the ideology of "go to college, graduate, get a good job".  It has been expected of them to do that and they expected the outcome.

I honestly would have expected more people taking advantage of the Internet as a way to make money.  It really isn't hard to make a decent living if you are willing to give up some of the consumeristic tendencies within society (yes, you can call me the pot speaking to the kettle given some of the things we don't want to give up even though we are barely breaking even at this point in time).

avonlea

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 783
  • Age: 35
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 01:26:07 PM »
Who are we kidding?  ALL Americans feel entitled.  This country was founded on entitlement. When the first European settlers showed up here, they thought it was completely acceptable to confiscate the land and profit from it.  ('We traveled so far and under harsh conditions.  Of course we deserve it!") When colonists didn't think they were getting fair representation (and were having to give away too much of their $), they revolted against their mother country and started their own government.  Two examples but there are a million. 

I don't think there is anything wrong about encouraging your child to find a job that they will enjoy.  The problem is that parents don't get into the specifics of what taking that path will mean.  Their kids need to understand how much their desired lifestyle is going to cost.  They need to understand how much they can expect to receive from certain career fields, and that the average starting salary is most likely what they will receive. 

But they definitely need to understand the value of a dollar. When the only financial experience they have had is dealing with a small allowance each week or making money at a minimum wage job to purchase toys, hearing that a career will pay $50k a year can sound like hitting the jackpot when one is ignorant.  That's a very respectable wage, but it's probably not going to afford an average 18 year old the standard of living that he/she thinks it will.  Sayings like "Do what you love and the money will follow"...yeah, they are ridiculous.  But really, this is one of the problems that occurs when parents don't teach their kids about money.



"It's not what the world holds for you.  It's what you bring to it."
-Anne (with an 'e') Shirley, from Green Gables

arebelspy

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 10000
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 01:55:56 PM »
The problem as I see it is that it's not an entitlement mindset to think "hey I just spent $100k on an education, I should have a better job than working retail for $10 per hour." Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

That is the definition of entitlement.  "I just did xyz, I deserve abc".

Exactly.

Does your degree offer you an opportunity to have a job that pays more than $10/hour retail?  No?  Then maybe you shouldn't feel entitled to a job that pays more than $10/hr retail.  Yes?  Go get that job.

If no, maybe you should get some skills that will qualify you for a job that pays more than that.  Clearly the skills you have are not in high demand.  Now I'm clearly in the camp of "maybe you shouldn't have followed your passion if you thought your passion was going to make you lots of money just because you love it.. or else you should have followed your passion, but realized you won't make a lot of money at it and have another way to generate money or get by without money."  But too many people are complaining about their liberal arts degree not earning them money.  What a surprise.

Or, best yet, IMO, go make a job for yourself.  There's lots of ways to make money, and working for someone is only one.

Why exactly should someone else give you a high paying job you aren't qualified for just because you "spent $100k on an education"?
A silent voice is as powerless as a silenced one.

-------------------------------------------------------

  The Cheat is a millionaire!

pumpkinlantern

  • Stubble
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2013, 02:01:54 PM »
I think Baby Boomers are the most entitled generation of all.

This is the generation that:
- had free education, work past retirement age at the best income and lifestyle (due to seniority), making off money off owning/running companies that use debt-strapped Gen Y'ers for unpaid/underpaid internships
- had low housing prices when they bought homes and are now selling them to Gen Y'ers for high prices (many of whom can't afford to buy)
- expect the government to pay them social security when they retire because they spent every penny living well in their middle age and early senior years (obviously paid for by taxes paid by working Gen Y'ers)
- most got inheritances from their frugal and practical Depression-era parents, but many didn't save for their own retirements let alone planning to leave inheritances for their children.

Yes, there are some idealistic Gen Y'ers that are disillusioned by reality - that's part of being young.  But are they more entitled than their Baby Boomer parents?  I don't think so.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2013, 02:25:31 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

arebelspy

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 10000
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2013, 02:32:28 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.

Honestly, I'd rather not have a pension, and would keep the extra salary, rather than contributing to it, if I could.

Wouldn't you do the same with SS?  Wouldn't you rather have the extra money and manage and invest it yourself than have someone else do so for you?

Every time someone goes on about how wonderful pensions are and how they wish they had one, I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.  ;)
A silent voice is as powerless as a silenced one.

-------------------------------------------------------

  The Cheat is a millionaire!

Undecided

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 651
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2013, 02:41:03 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.


S/he might have something, but is it called "Social Security" in Canada?

arebelspy

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 10000
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Las Vegas
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2013, 02:46:15 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.


S/he might have something, but is it called "Social Security" in Canada?

Why does that matter?

I'm sure they have an equivalent, Old Age Security or whatever.  The point remains the same, regardless of them being in Canada. 
A silent voice is as powerless as a silenced one.

-------------------------------------------------------

  The Cheat is a millionaire!

destron

  • Magnum
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Seattle
    • Mustachian Financial Calculators
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 02:46:56 PM »

First off, your numbers are wrong. It’s actually 70% of the population aged 20 to 34 that are employed.

I cannot find where you are reading this statistic on that chart. Can you point it out for me? I see where it says 20-24 y/o's at about 70%.

Quote
The problem I have with this article is that it eschews things like actual facts to put forth a contrived narrative that if only Gen Y’ers stopped feeling special and worked harder everything will work itself out. This is the bullshit that I am talking about.

Please re-read the article. I read that if Gen-Y'ers stopped feeling so special and didn't have inflated expectation that they would feel happier. You seem to be reading a lot of your own feelings and frustrations into the article.

Quote
Assumption: “She’s probably started off her career perfectly well”

Reality: “Even those lucky enough to be employed are often struggling. Little more than half are working full time—compared with about 80% of the population at large—and 12% earn minimum wage or less. The median weekly wage for young workers has fallen more than 5% since 2007”

Even by your own reading of the statistics, most 20-24 y/o's are employed.

Quote
Assumption: “To be clear, GYPSYs want economic prosperity just like their parents did—they just also want to be fulfilled by their career in a way their parents didn't think about as much.“

Reality: “Respondents between the ages of 18 and 24 were most likely to define the American Dream as being debt-free and least likely to define it as joining the 1% or retiring financially secure at 65.”

Credit.com Study

This also reflects something I see all of the time. Young adults just want to be able to afford their student loan payments and be able to get an apartment and maybe be able to afford a night out with friends. A fulfilling career comes later.

We all have anecdotal experience -- my experience is that young people often want to do a job that is fulfilling to them from the start. This does not mean they expect to be the presidence of a company, but that they expect to be successful at whatever career they want to do, no matter how few the opportunities or how much competition there is.

Quote
Assumption: “The current world is bubbling with opportunity for an ambitious person to find flowery, fulfilling success.  The specific direction may be unclear, but it'll work itself out—just dive in somewhere.”

Reality: “one in five 25-34 year-old workers is failing to find work that matches his or her education”

When your degree is in something that does not directly lead to employment, is this a surprise? I would say that 1 in 5 seems low. This supports the special unicorn argument.

There was a recent episode of Planet Money where they discuss average pay for college grads based on their degree. This data was only collected in the most recent census. The lowest paid college grad was for (drum roll please) psychology. They interviewed people who said that they wouldn't change their major even had they known this because they want to follow their dream.

Quote
Yeah, you can say I am cherry picking stats out of articles but at least I am making an argument that has some kind of evidence to support it instead of making blanket statements with no basis in reality.

The problem as I see it is that it's not an entitlement mindset to think "hey I just spent $100k on an education, I should have a better job than working retail for $10 per hour." Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

You are cherry picking stats, and they don't even contradict the points you are up in arms against. It may have been a bad idea to spend $100k on an education if that $100k was for personal fulfillment over employment opportunities.
Mustachian Financial Calculators at http://mustachecalc.com

Last Read: The Elements of Scrum by Chris Sims
Currently Reading: Lord of the North by Bernard Cromwell

Mr.Macinstache

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 923
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2013, 02:47:29 PM »
I think the point is the boomers had it pretty damn good. It was the norm to have a secure job that offered a pension, healthcare, etc. And as mentioned, low cost of housing and about everything else. In my case, my parents are holding a ham under the arm and crying because they have no bread thanks to this post 2008 world. They raised some spoiled brats, because, why not. It's easy and they could.

I feel lucky being a Gen Xer in that I did get a job right out of college, bought a low priced house and had some good work years in before it all went to crap.

But at the end of the day there are still those who live in fantasy land, investing 100k+ in education and degrees which might be useless. Where are the boomers guiding their kids? Fantasy island maybe?

I cant tell you how many times I heard "It'll turn around" in 2009 from my parents. Oy. I don't blame the Gen X/Yers all that much... most were led by the blind decadence. At the end of the day, you have to make your own informed choices instead of listening to your parents about everything.

destron

  • Magnum
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Seattle
    • Mustachian Financial Calculators
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2013, 02:50:34 PM »
I think Baby Boomers are the most entitled generation of all.

You are conflating "entitled" with "best opportunities." I don't think anyone is arguing that it is not more difficult today than it was 40 years ago. The article points out that baby boomers did better than their expectations.
Mustachian Financial Calculators at http://mustachecalc.com

Last Read: The Elements of Scrum by Chris Sims
Currently Reading: Lord of the North by Bernard Cromwell

mpbaker22

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2013, 03:02:47 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.

Honestly, I'd rather not have a pension, and would keep the extra salary, rather than contributing to it, if I could.

Wouldn't you do the same with SS?  Wouldn't you rather have the extra money and manage and invest it yourself than have someone else do so for you?

Every time someone goes on about how wonderful pensions are and how they wish they had one, I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.  ;)

I agree/disagree.  The returns in SS are so abysmal (i think i read something like 1-2%), you would be guaranteed to do better over the long run.  But I think a lot of pension funds, these days at least, are funded at 100% and have much higher returns.  While still probably lower than an 'average' individual portfolio, I would think the risk might be lower.

Mr.Macinstache

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 923
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2013, 03:03:45 PM »
I think Baby Boomers are the most entitled generation of all.

You are conflating "entitled" with "best opportunities." I don't think anyone is arguing that it is not more difficult today than it was 40 years ago. The article points out that baby boomers did better than their expectations.

In my case, my parents exceeding their expectations led to having higher expectations. When that wasn't met... it went something like this. WAAAAAAAHH!

Undecided

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 651
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2013, 03:06:09 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.


S/he might have something, but is it called "Social Security" in Canada?

Why does that matter?

I'm sure they have an equivalent, Old Age Security or whatever.  The point remains the same, regardless of them being in Canada.

How would s/he understand the point if s/he doesn't understand the terms? Or are Canadians familiar with U.S. social security? I wasn't trying to be difficult.

Regarding your point about preferring the extra money to having a pension, I'm sure there are many who would take the same position, but in the context of GuitarStv's generational complaint, isn't part of the complaint implicitly that current incomes didn't increase as deferred incomes decreased with the reduction in or elimination in pensions? I don't know if that's factually true within particular industries/jobs, but there must be some systems (like teaching, in some places) where it can be examined.

mpbaker22

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2013, 03:12:06 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.


S/he might have something, but is it called "Social Security" in Canada?

Why does that matter?

I'm sure they have an equivalent, Old Age Security or whatever.  The point remains the same, regardless of them being in Canada.

How would s/he understand the point if s/he doesn't understand the terms? Or are Canadians familiar with U.S. social security? I wasn't trying to be difficult.

Regarding your point about preferring the extra money to having a pension, I'm sure there are many who would take the same position, but in the context of GuitarStv's generational complaint, isn't part of the complaint implicitly that current incomes didn't increase as deferred incomes decreased with the reduction in or elimination in pensions? I don't know if that's factually true within particular industries/jobs, but there must be some systems (like teaching, in some places) where it can be examined.

Exactly.  My company does give us young'ns an extra 3% in our 401K.  I estimate that's worth about $10,000/year in traditional retirement.  The pension everyone before me has is worth about $30,000/year.  And we make similar amounts after adjusting for years experience, etc.

Jack

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2013, 03:17:35 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.
You have one.  It's called Social Security.

As a member of gen-Y, I have no expectation that I'll ever receive a dime from Social Security.

In fact, I'm more worried about having to support my gen-X in-laws when they get screwed out of theirs.

Please re-read the article. I read that if Gen-Y'ers stopped feeling so special and didn't have inflated expectation that they would feel happier. You seem to be reading a lot of your own feelings and frustrations into the article.

Hoping to have a reasonable chance of a job instead of graduating into the second-worst job market in US history is "inflated expectation?"

(Oh yeah: and in a post-"corporate raider" era when companies can't be bothered to actually train and mentor their entry-level employees anymore, to boot?)

Even by your own reading of the statistics, most 20-24 y/o's are employed.

So what? "Most" is not sufficient! (Sufficient is about 95%, minus whatever stay-at-home spouses are left these days.)


Mr.Macinstache

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 923
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2013, 03:23:52 PM »
As a member of gen-Y, I have no expectation that I'll ever receive a dime from Social Security.

That's been said by many of boomers before they retired too. It'll be there, thanks to the lender of last resort known as the Fed. You just wont be able to buy anything with it!

Jack

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 931
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2013, 03:27:21 PM »
You just wont be able to buy anything with it!

LOL, good point!

DebtDerp

  • Handlebar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »
The problem as I see it is that it's not an entitlement mindset to think "hey I just spent $100k on an education, I should have a better job than working retail for $10 per hour." Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

That is the definition of entitlement.  "I just did xyz, I deserve abc".

Exactly.

Does your degree offer you an opportunity to have a job that pays more than $10/hour retail?  No?  Then maybe you shouldn't feel entitled to a job that pays more than $10/hr retail.  Yes?  Go get that job.

If no, maybe you should get some skills that will qualify you for a job that pays more than that.  Clearly the skills you have are not in high demand.  Now I'm clearly in the camp of "maybe you shouldn't have followed your passion if you thought your passion was going to make you lots of money just because you love it.. or else you should have followed your passion, but realized you won't make a lot of money at it and have another way to generate money or get by without money."  But too many people are complaining about their liberal arts degree not earning them money.  What a surprise.

Or, best yet, IMO, go make a job for yourself.  There's lots of ways to make money, and working for someone is only one.

Why exactly should someone else give you a high paying job you aren't qualified for just because you "spent $100k on an education"?

Poor choice of words perhaps, but you are essentially saying the exact same thing I am saying but I wish you would look at my entire argument.

Only 2.85% of bachelor degree graduates in 2010 (last year for data) had a degree in Liberal arts and sciences, general studies, and humanities. The most popular degrees were Business (by far), Social Sciences and History, Health Professions and related, Education, Psychology, etc. The marketing major must be entitled because she thinks she has better qualifications than the only job she can find making mochas at Starbucks to supplement her unpaid internship. The education graduate must be entitled when he complains about not being able to make his student loan payments because the only job he could find is a part time gig as a substitute. No one expects to graduate and immediately be “making lots of money in their passion.” They are hoping that they will at least be able to find work that will allow them to keep up with their student loan payments.

Saying that these people should just “go get that job” or “go make a job” is the modern day let them eat cake. It’s not reality. Instead of saying that generation y should just work harder, stop feeling special and everything will work out, we should be examining why it is that we have a system where thousands and thousands of young adults go into tens of thousands of dollars of debt in order to get a degree but then find it increasingly difficult to find a well-paying job. Is it because these degrees are just not worth the money anymore? Is it because companies are hiring less entry level positions? Why is it that wages are going down but the cost to get an education to qualify for the job is going up? I’m sure it’s a combination of the above and a myriad of other issues but one of which is not entitlement.

I’ll just end by saying that I absolutely don’t think that anybody should give another person a job just because they have a degree that cost $100k. What I am saying is that thousands of people are graduating with great degrees and plenty qualified for great jobs but are falling through the cracks as a result of a poor economy. It just makes me so upset when others dismiss these people as not working hard enough and being entitled. In my experience this is a very small minority of my generation and now where near the majority as the original article suggests.
StudentLoanRAGE --  A blog about another 20-something with way too much student debt.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2013, 03:32:14 PM »
Every time a boomer tells me about this magical thing called a penn-shunn I am enthralled by the strangeness of it all.

You have one.  It's called Social Security.


S/he might have something, but is it called "Social Security" in Canada?

Why does that matter?

I'm sure they have an equivalent, Old Age Security or whatever.  The point remains the same, regardless of them being in Canada.

OAS pays about 500$ a month if you max out the benefits (which few people can do).  6 grand a year or less is not exactly what I'd call a pension . . . But I'm spoiled by my habit of eating three times a day I guess.

DebtDerp

  • Handlebar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Generation Y and let downs..
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2013, 03:33:36 PM »
Assumption: “She’s probably started off her career perfectly well”

Reality: “Even those lucky enough to be employed are often struggling. Little more than half are working full time—compared with about 80% of the population at large—and 12% earn minimum wage or less. The median weekly wage for young workers has fallen more than 5% since 2007”

Even by your own reading of the statistics, most 20-24 y/o's are employed.

meh... I'm not going to go back through my points if you can't understand that there is a difference between being employed and starting off a career perfectly well.
StudentLoanRAGE --  A blog about another 20-something with way too much student debt.