General Career Advice Appreciated

[gbnf21]

Hi everyone. This is my first time posting but Ive spent a lot of time reading posts in the forums and from the blog and am excited about FIRE, but I feel I could use some advice.

Im currently wrapping up my Junior year of college at a solid school. Im double majoring in Finance and Economics but I have some concerns about where Im headed.

First of all, I have had doubts about my major from time to time throughout my college career. If I were to start over again I think I would pick something in STEM. However, I feel like at this point in time it wouldnt be worth making the change especially considering I would essentially be starting from scratch and need probably 2 extra years of school to earn a degree in one of those areas. The idea of spending those extra 2 years not only not making money but going into debt isnt very appealing to me as have plans to FIRE as early as possible. Any thoughts on a change of major at this stage would be appreciated but at this point I highly doubt Ill follow through with a change.

Secondly, I have recently (over the past year probably, but more seriously within the past month or so), begun considering pursuing a PHD after graduation and going on to do research and teach. On one hand I think if I had 10 million dollars sitting in my bank account right now and didnt need to worry about money this is the route I would take. However - Im not 100% sure its what I really want to do and the idea of spending 2 years in grad school only to realize I dont want to take this path is unappealing. It also sets me back from growing a stache for at least a few years while I work on my PHD. Is it financially worth it to go this route?

Ill also add that I have also considered the possibility of pursuing a PHD only after reaching FIRE but thats a ways off and I dont know if I will want to wait for that. On the other hand, it allows me to start building my stache much sooner.

Finally, a lot of my fellow classmates have secured summer internships (in many cases for the second summer in a row) while I have not been able to do so. This has been frustrating for me and I think led to some frustration with my major (though its not my major's fault obviously). I am still looking and applying for internships this summer but I almost never hear back from anywhere and opportunities are drying up quickly. I would love to work this summer and be able to at least experience my field a little bit but most importantly Im beginning to be worried that a lack of experience with internships will really hurt my chances to find a job after graduation and/or negatively impact my starting salary if I do find one. So this isnt really a FIRE related question but do you think this is something I should be concerned about?

Overall Im not super excited about my potential career path right now but I think I would feel a lot better if I felt confident I would find a good job with a decent starting salary upon graduation. I do enjoy my major even if its not the most fulfilling thing in the world and I feel like almost no matter my career path I wont be super excited about my job (which is ok with me, just part of the reason I want to FIRE). So I have a lot to consider between staying the path (lack of internships may hurt me), switching majors (highly unlikely), or pursuing a PHD (will likely increase my time to FIRE and ability to start building my stache).

I realize a lot of this is probably stuff I have to figure out myself and you all wont be able to tell me what path to take with my own life. I also realize this might not be the right place to be looking for advice and that this post is a bit rambly and all over the place about my situation, but you all seem like fairly reasonable people and most importantly are people who will understand my goals for FIRE. Long story short - any advice you can provide would be appreciated no matter how specific or broad. I know this was long so thanks for reading and helping to those who took the time :)

[Freedomin5]

It doesn't have to be a formal internship at a Fortune 500. It could just be a summer job at a summer camp or a volunteer job with an organization you admire. Sometimes, that can be parlayed into a full time job upon graduation. And even jobs in fields that aren't finance/economics can use someone with your skillset. For example, I was a business major (strategic management for small/mid-size businesses) but volunteered at a counseling center. Because the director was a therapist and not a business person, I was put in charge of all of the adminstrative work (marketing, communications, operations/scheduling, client management, etc.) which gave me a ton of experience.

In comparison, I actually did spend 3 summers working as an intern at Fortune 100 company directly linked to my double major in computer science and business. Let's just say I learned a lot more working for the non-profit than I did at the large company. And it was working at the non-profit that eventually led to an employment offer after graduation. And helped me solidify my path for graduate school. And volunteer experience still counts as work experience.

So rather than limiting yourself to formal internships, why not apply to everything that seems interesting and fields in which you are thinking of pursuing a PHD? It's a good way to test out whether you truly have a passion for the field, and believe me, it's a lot easier to survive 100-hour PHD work weeks when you're passionate about the topic.

[Trifle]

First off -- good for you for asking these questions at this stage in your life!  You are way ahead of the curve. 

Are you sitting down?  I'm going to give it to you straight regarding the PhD route:  Don't do it.   The economics of teaching are not good right now.  Academics is a different world now than it was 20 years ago, and PhD degrees are not what they once were.  It is a dangerous blind alley in the world of careers, and it will probably hurt your chances of FIRE.

My spouse is a university professor, and has run search committees recently for open positions.   For each entry level tenure-track position, they receive ~150 applications.  As you can guess with supply/demand numbers like that, the pay is low.  Tenure track teachers work their asses off, and I don't know many who can manage a good work-life balance.  To make matters worse, most colleges and universities are moving toward using more part time and adjunct teachers to save money on staffing.  These folks (all with PhDs) earn far less than the tenure-track people.  Most of the teachers I know (tenured, tenure-track, and adjunct) say they made a mistake and wish they could undo it.  They went into it feeling like it was a noble calling, and found something completely different. They do NOT feel that the joy of teaching young people makes up for the bad work conditions and low pay.  In fact, they say that for every great student they get (there are some) they have to cope with 20 poorly prepared students who have no idea how to learn and don't want to do any work.

When students ask DH if they should go on to grad school, get their PhD and teach, he always tells them to run away.  Run far away and get a job in industry somewhere.  Not all professors tell their students this.  Some professors still have the mindset of 20 years ago, when the teaching situation was different.   They aren't necessarily aware of today's realities.

Sorry to come on all doom and gloom.  I could go on, but you get the picture -- the economic realities of getting a PhD and teaching are bad right now.  Strongly recommend that you stay the course with your current major, get a job, and get on the path to FIRE.  There are many, many ways for you to find your passions in life and be fulfilled.  There are many ways to teach/connect with others without going down the PhD path.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like to talk to my DH.  He can give you more details from "the trenches" if you have questions.  :)
         

[adjunctprof]

Life is short.  You will make mistakes.

You should follow your heart, after getting as much consultation as possible and determining what is best for you.

[Laura33]

1.  Don't get a Ph.D unless you love your field and dream of teaching.  And even then think twice.  For all the reasons that have already been stated.

2.  Don't change majors to STEM.  You are correct that it will add years to your college experience, and what if you don't enjoy that either?

What I would suggest:  DO take as many STEM classes as you can alongside your major.  One of the major issues with tech today is that there are very few people who can understand both the tech AND the business implications of specific decisions -- and who can then effectively convey that to others without that level of knowledge.  This is what my DH does, and he has done very, very well in that niche.   

The other thing to keep in mind is that your chosen major isn't the be-all/end-all -- the point of finance isn't finance, right?  Unless you're a prof, of course.  It's to help the money go around so people can borrow what they need to make and sell things people care about, and to manage the cash flow and costs so said business can stay in business.  So you don't have to adore finance in and of itself, because it is a means to an end.  Use your remaining time in school to find a "thing" you are really interested in -- an industry or company that does stuff you think is cool and exciting; take some classes that you think might be useful or helpful for that area; volunteer if you have to over the summer to get experience in that industry; and then target that industry in your ultimate job hunt.

Also don't worry quite so much about starting salary.  You need to play the long game.  Your job for probably the next 5 years is to throw yourself into your work and get as much experience as you can -- good and bad, learn what you're good at and what you enjoy and what you're not/don't, really hone your skills.  If you have energy and are a quick learner and have good people skills, you will do very, very well.

FWIW, my DH is pure engineer (Ph.D in EE).  He now works in advanced tech and loves it.  But his salary started shooting up dramatically when he moved from a pure R&D role into a business role (i.e., bringing in and executing the contracts instead of taking the lead on the development side).  And the irony is that he is now considered *too* "technical" -- he is surrounded by finance guys and business guys who value MBAs and see his Ph.D as a detriment. 

Tl;dr:  Your background and major give you a really solid base for future success.  Round that out with specific skills/knowledge/experience in an industry you are interested in, and you can go as far as you want to.

[market timer]

You sound too pessimistic about the future for a college junior. If you want to do a PhD, I would strongly recommend it. Assuming it is in economics or finance, you will need a lot of math. Typically you'll want something close to a math major--check the PhD requirements.

As an economics PhD, I had a chuckle at this comment:

You don't have your heart set on it, so for the love of GOD, please do not waste your time and a lot of borrowed money with a Ph.D, especially in something like economics -- if it were in the hard sciences, then maybe it would worth it.

PhD in economics is a great deal. It usually doesn't require going into debt, and starting salaries are rather high for (in my opinion) interesting work.

In my opinion, earning a Ph.D. does not endow you with any more useful skills in the world at large, and any additional knowledge you obtain will be sparingly soluble in the rest of your life and career.  It will probably not be worth the time and money spent.  In my line of work Ph.Ds have a tendency to be time-wasting perfectionists who are often naive and untrainable.  Go read Liar's Poker by Michael Lewis if you want a glimpse of how important  higher degrees are for working on Wall St. (giggles)

Agree with this comment that Wall Street is no longer a good path for economics PhDs. I'd look into FinTech (someone above recommended this), regular tech (e.g., Amazon), academia, or the Fed. I'd strongly recommend spending time studying statistics and programming while you are in school. These are highly valuable skills today.

[Cpa Cat]

I have a BA in Economics and toyed with graduate school in Econ. You sound a lot like the Econ students I knew. There's not a lot to do with an undergrad degree in Economics, so the majority of students end up entertaining grad school. Some of them were going to get a Master's Degree in Econ, some a PhD, some both. Some were going to get those and then a Law degree. Econ students are masters of making school a career because they can't actually picture a real career.

It sure doesn't make sense to get a PhD in either field of study if you're not sure that you even want to do those things as career. In that case, you're just using the PhD as an excuse to put off real life.

In your shoes, I would drop the Econ major and continue with Finance. Toy with a few STEM classes and see if you like them. Internships in Finance shouldn't be relegated to only the Summer - you can try for Spring and Fall internships too.

I wonder if your main problem with internships is that you aren't really confident or focused on your major. When a firm hires an intern, they're looking for someone who's going to be a great candidate for full time employment and who is interested in the job. You have described yourself as being essentially indifferent to any particular career path. I have a feeling it's showing.

[NESailor]

Are you by any chance the infamous market timer from the bogleheads forum?

My first thought also.  He was an econ PhD too ;)

I agree with the general sentiment towards academia but there are bright spots.  Market timer mentioned one - pay for econ PhD's can be good.  Same thing with accounting.  My alma mater, a small but AACSB accredited state school in a LCOL area pays lo6 figures for new accounting PhD's.  It's not that they hire them in droves but they always have a hard time filling the jobs much like the rest of the country.  A good background in tech (coding) would be a big bonus in my opinion.

Cheers and good luck!

[market timer]

Are you by any chance the infamous market timer from the bogleheads forum?

Yes, same person, though not as big a proponent of leverage these days.

[ysette9]

On the subject of getting an internship, at least when I was in undergrad it felt like there was a bit of an art to being successful there. Make sure you are taking full advantage of your college's career center. Take the practice classes on how to interview, sit down with a counselor to go over your resume and make sure it is as good as it can be, get help in where listings end up and how to apply. As a student and later coming back to recruit for my company I was always surprised at the number of students who didn't know when the resume drop period was to be selected for on-campus interviews with big companies and didn't avail themselves of the resources available to them for free,

I'd also recommend making sure you have a complete, succinct, and clear LinkedIn profile. Go ahead and search for people who are doing jobs you might be interested in who also majored in what you're doing. Bonus points if they went to your school. Feel free to message them on LinkedIn as a sort of networking/informal networking opportunity. Social networks can be very powerful ways of finding jobs. I personally am contacted occasionally this way and since I love mentoring, I don't mind exchanging emails with students and helping them out in whatever little ways I can.

[NESailor]

Are you by any chance the infamous market timer from the bogleheads forum?

Yes, same person, though not as big a proponent of leverage these days.

I feel like I'm talking to (at?) a celebrity.  No really.  Thank you kindly for for sharing that spectacular experience.  I still don't understand half of what you smart guys were talking about in some of the more technical bits of that thread but you did a fine job making that experience as personal as it gets on an internet forum.  From what I recall someone mentioned that you actually dug yourself out of the hole and became financially independent despite the crash.  If that's really the case - bravo x2!

OP, sorry for participating in hijacking the thread.

Regarding internships - I take interns in my accounting department and the students who show up are very motivated.  Nevertheless - I often end up deferring to the local college's internship/career point person and just go with her recommendation.  Does your school have someone like that.  Can he or she help you get placed?

Try reaching out to the local chamber of commerce too.  I know a lot of small businesses would love some free help, even if technically you shouldn't be doing unpaid "work" - experience is experience.

Good luck! 

[Scortius]

As a recent STEM PhD... don't get a PhD, it's just not worth it in this environment.

I would second the advice to take STEM classes.  Specifically, I would try and take as many statistics and modeling classes as possible.  Take introductory CS to learn how to write basic programs.  Take probability and statistics, and maybe try and find a class on Bayesian statistics as well.  The holy grail would be a class on time series modeling and analysis, which would fit perfectly into your finance degree.  This would position you to be able to become a quantitative financial modeler, which is a hell of a lot more desirable in industry than a general econ/finance guy.

Another option would be to push more towards the business side and try and get into corporate accounting or something of that nature, but that's not my area of expertise and I don't know how much that would interest you.

[katstache92]

I'm an engineer, so my experience is probably different than that of an econ/finance major.  An internship in your field might be completely different than school.  I really did not enjoy being an engineering major in college.  However, I really enjoy being an engineer in the real world.  I tried 4 different areas within engineering at 4 different companies before I graduated and tried something else with a new company.  I'm still figuring out what I want to do with the rest of my life.  It's okay if you don't know what you want to do.  An internship will help you determine what you want (or really don't want) to do.  In engineering, having some kind of internship experience was a prerequisite for most full time positions I was interested in.

Go to your career center.  They might have counselors to help you or job postings or an entire website dedicated to helping students get hired that you didn't know about (ask me how I know... now.)  Practice interviewing.  Some career centers offer mock interviews, do them.  Revise your resume.  Attend career fairs.  As someone else mentioned, consider a spring/fall internship/co-op.

I can't really speak to a PhD.  I wanted the option to never have to go back to school again.  In engineering if you get a PhD you had better love exactly what the PhD is about because that will forever be your niche.  I don't know how this translates to other areas.

[Pigeon]

In addition to talking to people at your career center, see if you can sit down one-on-one with some of your professors to pick their brains about internship opportunities and ask them to take a look at your resume and cover letter.  They might take an interest in you and help you make some connections with places you might intern.

[CheapScholar]

I'm a higher ed administrator and I see how bad the market is for PhDs.  I myself have a JD (also a huge risk), but the nice thing about that is it only took 3 years to obtain.  Although, with a JD you're usually stuck paying tuition (which I did) and with a PhD in Econ you probably won't pay tuition and you should get a stipend.  If you're not in the running for a PhD that is tuition free and stipend supported, definitely don't do it!  The only justification of getting a PhD in Econ is if you go to a top school.  Even then, there's plenty of risk.  I'm at Director level in university administration.  I am currently hiring an associate director (this is for a fundraising job geared towards approaching corporate and foundation partners).  You wouldn't BELIEVE the amount of PhDs that applied for the job.  I'll end up hiring a PhD, which is great, but I'm telling you that a lot of these people can't find jobs.  Their prospects are often doing something administrative at a university (if they're lucky), accepting non tenure track faculty positions (those pay maybe 40-70), or adjuncting (scraping by at 3-5K per course taught and wondering how they'll get health insurance).

My advice, if you're not a 3.9 gpa student with top GRE score and getting offers from a top 20 school, don't do the Econ PhD.

If you want to teach, get a job in finance or business.  Get your employer to help pay for an MBA or masters in finance.  You can FIRE in 10-15 years and then adjunct classes on your schedule or consider one of those non tenure track faculty postitions (there will be PLENTY of those in 10 years).

[Goldielocks]

Are you by any chance the infamous market timer from the bogleheads forum?

Yes, same person, though not as big a proponent of leverage these days.

I feel like I'm talking to (at?) a celebrity.  No really.  Thank you kindly for for sharing that spectacular experience.  I still don't understand half of what you smart guys were talking about in some of the more technical bits of that thread but you did a fine job making that experience as personal as it gets on an internet forum. 

Hear! Hear!   Thanks also from me, markettimer.    I have had my own spectacular (to me) failures with money and did not document it through any means at the time, so I found your story very human and worthwhile to read and learn from.

[Goldielocks]

OP,

I am currently an adjunct professor at a local college (very part time, for a little extra FiRE money).  However, with a career in business (engineering) and a personal interest in good finance, I find the business model for post-secondary education to be severely broken.    Honestly, I can't believe the conditions / treatment and time expected from the teaching staff in return for the pay.

Adjuncts get about half the pay of the tenured professors, and supply their own IT equipment, have uncertainty about future contracts, no work space.  Tenured professors deal with the administration system, and many of them get the tiniest little cubicle as their place to work from.

Instead, I highly recommend getting a day job in finance (accounting, specifically), and then teaching CPA classes to others looking to get their CPA license...  or teaching in seminars to other business professionals.   That is very rewarding, without any of the school BS, it is just difficult to get a full time career out of.

[goalphish2002]

I agree that this is a good option.  However, I want to point out that OP would have to consider how to meet the hours required to sit for the CPA.  The 150 college hours required to take the exam means a student must have 5 years of undergrad classes or a master's on top of the bachelor's.  It seems the fastest route would be to graduate with a degree in finance, taking as many accounting classes as possible as electives.  Then, OP would enter a graduate program for accounting.  OP could change the major to a dual in accounting and finance, but most choose the graduate degree route now.  Either way, the time and cost of the additional year of undergrad or graduate school are a big deal, IMO.  Also, the CPA exam is arguably a year of study in itself.  This would be a lot of time, cost, and effort for someone that doesn't have their mind made up yet. 

***Note: I am assuming OP would need to be a CPA to teach the courses.***

[NESailor]

I agree that this is a good option.  However, I want to point out that OP would have to consider how to meet the hours required to sit for the CPA.  The 150 college hours required to take the exam means a student must have 5 years of undergrad classes or a master's on top of the bachelor's.  It seems the fastest route would be to graduate with a degree in finance, taking as many accounting classes as possible as electives.  Then, OP would enter a graduate program for accounting.  OP could change the major to a dual in accounting and finance, but most choose the graduate degree route now.  Either way, the time and cost of the additional year of undergrad or graduate school are a big deal, IMO.  Also, the CPA exam is arguably a year of study in itself.  This would be a lot of time, cost, and effort for someone that doesn't have their mind made up yet. 

***Note: I am assuming OP would need to be a CPA to teach the courses.***

Nah, there's ways around that.  I only have a BS in Accounting (really, it's a bachelor of "science" hahaha).  And I still worked up to 140+ credits in 3.5 years in undergrad.  I tested out of a bunch of stuff so I probably earned like 20 credits on CLEP tests alone.  I don't know if those are a thing anymore but it was definitely an option in the early 2000's.  Since the core of my accounting program was CPA exam accredited, I didn't need any additional accounting courses.  I took a couple of online courses at a community college and got my license (in NY).

I took the CPA exams in 2008 all within 6 months and passed it all.  My recommendation would be 6 weeks/test but you've got to hit the books (or prep test questions which worked for me) HARD.  Any longer than that and I'd start forgetting stuff.  Keeping the intensity up helped me stay "in the groove" so to speak and it was all done before I realized what happened.

[goalphish2002]

I agree that this is a good option.  However, I want to point out that OP would have to consider how to meet the hours required to sit for the CPA.  The 150 college hours required to take the exam means a student must have 5 years of undergrad classes or a master's on top of the bachelor's.  It seems the fastest route would be to graduate with a degree in finance, taking as many accounting classes as possible as electives.  Then, OP would enter a graduate program for accounting.  OP could change the major to a dual in accounting and finance, but most choose the graduate degree route now.  Either way, the time and cost of the additional year of undergrad or graduate school are a big deal, IMO.  Also, the CPA exam is arguably a year of study in itself.  This would be a lot of time, cost, and effort for someone that doesn't have their mind made up yet. 

***Note: I am assuming OP would need to be a CPA to teach the courses.***

Nah, there's ways around that.  I only have a BS in Accounting (really, it's a bachelor of "science" hahaha).  And I still worked up to 140+ credits in 3.5 years in undergrad.  I tested out of a bunch of stuff so I probably earned like 20 credits on CLEP tests alone.  I don't know if those are a thing anymore but it was definitely an option in the early 2000's.  Since the core of my accounting program was CPA exam accredited, I didn't need any additional accounting courses.  I took a couple of online courses at a community college and got my license (in NY).

I took the CPA exams in 2008 all within 6 months and passed it all.  My recommendation would be 6 weeks/test but you've got to hit the books (or prep test questions which worked for me) HARD.  Any longer than that and I'd start forgetting stuff.  Keeping the intensity up helped me stay "in the groove" so to speak and it was all done before I realized what happened.

I took 2 CLEP tests at the tail end of my bachelor's.  Unfortunately, I didn't know sooner or I would have taken much more.  I have an M.S. in Accounting, but my work is really cost engineering.  I have considered taking the CMA and the PMP.  I don't know about taking the CPA because I don't have a CPA above me- which is required experience in GA.  And, I don't plan on leaving my company.

[Goldielocks]

I agree that this is a good option.  However, I want to point out that OP would have to consider how to meet the hours required to sit for the CPA.  The 150 college hours required to take the exam means a student must have 5 years of undergrad classes or a master's on top of the bachelor's.  It seems the fastest route would be to graduate with a degree in finance, taking as many accounting classes as possible as electives.  Then, OP would enter a graduate program for accounting.  OP could change the major to a dual in accounting and finance, but most choose the graduate degree route now.  Either way, the time and cost of the additional year of undergrad or graduate school are a big deal, IMO.  Also, the CPA exam is arguably a year of study in itself.  This would be a lot of time, cost, and effort for someone that doesn't have their mind made up yet. 

***Note: I am assuming OP would need to be a CPA to teach the courses.***

Yes, of course, nothing wrong with being an accountant AND a teacher, is there?   At least the CPA route does not involve the high cost / low reward of a pHD.

 There are other paths to becoming a CPA here (in addition to your outline) that essentially involve at least 4 years of evening CPA specific studies after 3 years of college, employment in finance, plus writing of exams.  It is not easy, but smart hardworking people do it all the time...  doesn't need a business degree or graduate degree (outside of the CPA night courses).

The thought was that someone needs to teach those classes, and OP could become that person in a few years... maybe be a secondary helper / administrator for it in the meantime.... all while earning very decent money as an accountant.

[Proud Foot]

OP, when you decided to major in Finance and Economics what drew you to those areas and what did you want to do as a career? Finance is rather broad in what you can do with it so I would suggest exploring what those options are and finding out what you are interested in. 

[gbnf21]

Sorry it took me so long to respond to anybody who provided your advice. I really appreciate all of your help and I certainly have a lot to mull over and work on.