Fundamental Flaw W/ Mustachianism

[Cowardly Toaster]

Let me state first: MMM is right about almost everything. Let it be known that I think he has laid out some excellent, even timeless, lessons for living a life of financial virtue.

My big contention? MMM and Mustachians will always be a cult. MMM's lessons will never scale up to the whole population. Most people are incapable mentally of freeing themselves from the debt-consumer cycle. Please note I said mentally, because as we Mustachians know, most Americans are in fact capable of living debt free, financially prudent lives.

The average mustachian seems to be quite a bit smarter than average. I mean just being able to entertain alternative ideas like MMM's usually denotes the ability to think outside the box.

Think about how every card is stacked against the average American when it comes to financial responsibility. It isn't taught in school. It often isn't taught in the home. It isn't taught in mass media, quite the opposite!

Is everyone familiar with psychological warfare? Where complex campaigns are used to mentally defeat an enemy, to demoralize? Advertisers are every bit as wily and sinister in this regard as the military masterminds of PsyOps are. America has quite literally been subject to a multi-generational campaign of psychological warfare with one goal in mind: too encourage bad financial habits.

Remember 2008? All anyone could think about was revving up the consumer debt cycle again. As a country, we're incapable of of breaking out of this paradigm.

I'd ask anyone who responds not to extol the virtues of Our Lord and Savior (or Saver? heh) MMM. He ideas are excellent. But what does it matter, as long as the rest of the country remains inescapably mired in their mental prisons? No matter how right these ideas are, people won't be able to get out of their current mindsets.

So what's the solution? More regulations IMO, but further than that, a whole shift in culture is needed. How do we get there, scaling up Mustachianism to whole country, a whole planet? I don't know. People are in love with the debt prison, even as it kills their souls.

Thoughts?

[Davids]

I am not looking to convert anyone, if anyone wants my opinion I will give it but I will never push it. I am more than happy being part of this cult without pushing others to join.

[boarder42]

the end of you rant contradicts the beginning.  You make a thesis that mustachianism can not scale then ask if scaling is the answer.

I personally think everyone here should share and promote financial responsibility in their daily lives.   Yes we dont teach it, but i talk about indexing and years til FI frequently in public in front of friends at work i share books etc. to teach people how to invest and what to do.  the fore fathers of this great country didnt break away from britain by saying man look at all this crap they're doing their military is too powerful we'll just have to always be in this cycle.

Hypersaving is becoming more mainstream more blogs are taking off.  the more people who blog about it the more the word gets out.  the more people share personally in their daily lives the more likely you'll find someone to listen.  More often than not when i bring it up regardless of the outspoken ones who scoff at the idea i will get greater than 20% that approach me after the group think BS is over and ask ... wait a minute so how does this work. 

. but with AI advancing ... forced change may be upon us in 20-30 years.  half the jobs may be gone and people will have to live on a fixed universal income. 

[Cowardly Toaster]

I am not looking to convert anyone, if anyone wants my opinion I will give it but I will never push it. I am more than happy being part of this cult without pushing others to join.

But it isn't that simple David. No matter who you are, liberal, conservative, libertarian, I think we can agree that this debt fueled consumer society is not only causing untold human misery, but is also unsustainable.

We're going to need Mushtache-esque principles as the norm just to survive.

[Tyson]

You state the problem is that MMM won't scale.  My reply is "So what?"

[Cowardly Toaster]

the end of you rant contradicts the beginning.  You make a thesis that mustachianism can not scale then ask if scaling is the answer.

Not exactly. I think Mustachianism could be scaled if tweaked. As it is now though, Mustachianism has a huge element of personal responsibility, and apparently there's many folks who can't exercise that, at least with regards to finances.

So per the title of my post, the fundamental flaw of Mustachianism is that it relies too much on individual choice.

[Chris22]

I am not looking to convert anyone, if anyone wants my opinion I will give it but I will never push it. I am more than happy being part of this cult without pushing others to join.

But it isn't that simple David. No matter who you are, liberal, conservative, libertarian, I think we can agree that this debt fueled consumer society is not only causing untold human misery, but is also unsustainable.

We're going to need Mushtache-esque principles as the norm just to survive.

No I don't think that's true.  Plenty of people can live average lives, living within their means, putting away a little something for a rainy day (say 10%) and then putting another 10% in the 401k, and retire in their 60s, hopefully with a paid-for house (or selling a paid-for house and downsizing) and live a reasonable, happy life. 

MMM cultists like to pretend there are two ways to live, MMM's way or on the brink of financial disaster.  It's simply not true. 

[Cowardly Toaster]

You state the problem is that MMM won't scale.  My reply is "So what?"

To paraphrase, "you might not be interested in the finances of your fellow citizens, but their finances are interested in you."

[Cowardly Toaster]

I am not looking to convert anyone, if anyone wants my opinion I will give it but I will never push it. I am more than happy being part of this cult without pushing others to join.

But it isn't that simple David. No matter who you are, liberal, conservative, libertarian, I think we can agree that this debt fueled consumer society is not only causing untold human misery, but is also unsustainable.

We're going to need Mushtache-esque principles as the norm just to survive.

No I don't think that's true.  Plenty of people can live average lives, living within their means, putting away a little something for a rainy day (say 10%) and then putting another 10% in the 401k, and retire in their 60s, hopefully with a paid-for house (or selling a paid-for house and downsizing) and live a reasonable, happy life. 

MMM cultists like to pretend there are two ways to live, MMM's way or on the brink of financial disaster.  It's simply not true.

Chris, just because there are many responsible Americans who aren't full on MMM doesn't make things much better. 50% of Americans are paycheck to paycheck and 33% can't write a $500 check.

[maizefolk]

Well that's a new one. Normally the fundamental flaw is: "If everyone adopted your lifestyle, the economy would crash and you wouldn't be able to live off of your investments."* Now the fundamental flaw is "maybe not everyone will adopt your lifestyle."

I agree with Davids and tyort1 that the fact that not everyone would chose to live the way I do does not represent a flaw in the way I chose to live my life.

*http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/what-if-everybody-decided-to-work-much-less.html

[TheAnonOne]

I would rather most don't and keep the economic engine running. (While maybe being a bit more environmentally safe about it perhaps)

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[KungfuRabbit]

a) there are at least 100 posts identical to this

b) good. If people suddenly stopped buying crap they didn't need the stock market would plummet and I'd be broke.

[RosieTR]

So what's the solution? More regulations IMO, but further than that, a whole shift in culture is needed. How do we get there, scaling up Mustachianism to whole country, a whole planet? I don't know. People are in love with the debt prison, even as it kills their souls.

Thoughts?

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. -Margaret Mead

There have always been people who made a bunch of money and invested it, and lived off the interest. This is not a new concept, but the twist is that there are many people in the middle class who could do more of this at this point in time than could far in the past. Think of African American slaves-no chance of any kind of retirement, obviously. After the Civil War, if they remained in the South, they often got caught up in share-cropping which was designed to never allow for the type of saving that would allow escape from the system. Or servants in the Manor Houses of Britain in the 19th century. Like the share-croppers, they had little chance of saving up enough money due to control by the system.
Now, however, a much greater proportion of the population is able to do this on some level. Even the save 10%/retire in your 60s, live to your 80s model is a vast improvement over the retire-at-65-die-at-66 model the original Social Security system was designed around. However, culture takes time to change. Vicki Robinson and Joe Dominguez started in the 70s by giving little seminars and pamphlets, and they thought *they* were going to change the world (Vicki is still working on this, btw). The movement has certainly grown, but still there are plenty of people who would be open to this but haven't heard of it yet. Walking the walk and talking about it does help. Press exposure helps. Are we swimming against the tide of advertisers and general culture? Yes. Is it impossible? No. The American Revolution was started and carried by a small portion of the population, who spent a lot of time "selling" it to the general populace before the war started. Anti-slavery work took many decades and a brutal war to end. Suffrage took 70 years if you count from Seneca Falls; longer if you consider that the idea was discussed and activists did work on it but were often told to take a back burner in favor of abolition work. This doesn't even count all the cultural changes that occurred in other places and times than the United States' short history. The idea of purposeful frugality as a means to escape obligatory paid employment in its more or less current form, is perhaps around 40 years old. It's gaining steam, not losing it, and that's a positive sign. Likewise, environmentalism in its current form could be said to have started with Rachael Carson's Silent Spring, which is also on the order of ~40 years old. Back then, if you were an environmentalist, you were a "dirty hippie" with your head in the clouds. Now, it's pretty mainstream to recycle, have solar panels on your house, drive an electric or hybrid vehicle. Almost any grocery store has an organic section. Yeah, not everyone bikes (and probably never will) but a future full of tiny houses with self-driving car-shares? Not head in the clouds sounding at all. Keep up the good fight-we'll make it!

[EnjoyIt]

b) good. If people suddenly stopped buying crap they didn't need the stock market would plummet and I'd be broke.

^ditto
Please keep buying crap.  I need to FIRE eventually.

[VolcanicArts]

I am not looking to convert anyone, if anyone wants my opinion I will give it but I will never push it. I am more than happy being part of this cult without pushing others to join.

I gave up trying to show people that they could be financially responsible and escape debt slavery a long time ago. Now I just keep my mouth shut and keep working on my financial goals. Not only do others not pay attention, but much worse is they become jealous and try to stop you. It is better to be a millionaire that no one has any idea vs. a millionaire celebrity. I also used to give stock tips etc. but I always tried to stop people from asking me about them or purchasing on these tips due to risk etc. it's funny but people would do this anyways even when I told them not to buy it. I guess a lot of non mustachians think you can just randomly stumble upon a good idea, not have to work, and be set for life. Sad but true.

[stoaX]

No matter how right these ideas are, people won't be able to get out of their current mindsets.
People are in love with the debt prison, even as it kills their souls.

I like my mustachian ways but I'm really hesitant to tell anyone else how to live.  If they love their debt prison it's not my place to proactively tell them they shouldn't. 

As far as regulation goes, we're highly regulated here in SoCal and yet it appears to be the epi-center of consumerism. 

[Chris22]

I am not looking to convert anyone, if anyone wants my opinion I will give it but I will never push it. I am more than happy being part of this cult without pushing others to join.

But it isn't that simple David. No matter who you are, liberal, conservative, libertarian, I think we can agree that this debt fueled consumer society is not only causing untold human misery, but is also unsustainable.

We're going to need Mushtache-esque principles as the norm just to survive.

No I don't think that's true.  Plenty of people can live average lives, living within their means, putting away a little something for a rainy day (say 10%) and then putting another 10% in the 401k, and retire in their 60s, hopefully with a paid-for house (or selling a paid-for house and downsizing) and live a reasonable, happy life. 

MMM cultists like to pretend there are two ways to live, MMM's way or on the brink of financial disaster.  It's simply not true.

Chris, just because there are many responsible Americans who aren't full on MMM doesn't make things much better. 50% of Americans are paycheck to paycheck and 33% can't write a $500 check.

So those people have to go full Mustache to survive, as you asserted?  I don't think that's true.  They need to be better than they are, but I don't think they have to go full MMM.

[Prairie Stash]

You assume that there is only one correct way of living.

The great thing about humanity is the diversity of ideas. I wouldn't want everyone to be mustachian because then we would be boring.

Do you also advocate we only eat the same food, worship a single way, have one hobby and work one job? Of course not, the idea of converting everyone into a uniform people is abhorrent.

[marty998]

You assume that there is only one correct way of living.

The great thing about humanity is the diversity of ideas. I wouldn't want everyone to be mustachian because then we would be boring.

Do you also advocate we only eat the same food, worship a single way, have one hobby and work one job? Of course not, the idea of converting everyone into a uniform people is abhorrent.

"North Korean" is the term that comes to mind.

[aspiringnomad]

The great thing about humanity is the diversity of ideas. I wouldn't want everyone to be mustachian because then we would be boring.

I agree with this.

Plus, the fundamental flaw is actually the one maizeman brought up. No matter how much hand waving one does, if everyone in the US suddenly adopted Mustachianism (let's say a 50% savings rate for that threshold), the market would absolutely tank. And not a V-shaped drop/recovery, but more like an L-shaped plunge for a good long while. FIRE would be but a faded dream or distant memory for some of us early cult members.

[Tyson]

The great thing about humanity is the diversity of ideas. I wouldn't want everyone to be mustachian because then we would be boring.

I agree with this.

Plus, the fundamental flaw is actually the one maizeman brought up. No matter how much hand waving one does, if everyone in the US suddenly adopted Mustachianism (let's say a 50% savings rate for that threshold), the market would absolutely tank. And not a V-shaped drop/recovery, but more like an L-shaped plunge for a good long while. FIRE would be but a faded dream or distant memory for some of us early cult members.

The even better thing about humanity is that they almost never learn from past mistakes, so we're safe!

[Mustache ride]

In order to be winners there has to be losers.

[Scandium]

But what does it matter, as long as the rest of the country remains inescapably mired in their mental prisons? No matter how right these ideas are, people won't be able to get out of their current mindsets.

Like others have said; so what? If they don't want to they don't want to. There's no need to "convert" or (worse) use the power of the state to force/nudge people to live they way you prefer. Some people want BMWs and iphones every year and retire at 70, some want 90s Hondas and retire at 35. So what?

What is it with people, liberal and conservative, that they simply abhor people making different choices than them, and they can't fathom how others can have happy lives that differ from theirs?

[Tyson]

But what does it matter, as long as the rest of the country remains inescapably mired in their mental prisons? No matter how right these ideas are, people won't be able to get out of their current mindsets.

Like others have said; so what? If they don't want to they don't want to. There's no need to "convert" or (worse) use the power of the state to force/nudge people to live they way you prefer. Some people want BMWs and iphones every year and retire at 70, some want 90s Hondas and retire at 35. So what?

What is it with people, liberal and conservative, that they simply abhor people making different choices than them, and they can't fathom how others can have happy lives that differ from theirs?

It's an example of tribal thinking.  Our group makes the right choices.  Your group does not.  Hell, you can even see the same dynamic with something as arbitrary as sports teams (Denver Broncos rock, New England Patriots suck!).  We're pretty much wired to have a strong pull toward group identity and group loyalty. 

[Chris22]

But what does it matter, as long as the rest of the country remains inescapably mired in their mental prisons? No matter how right these ideas are, people won't be able to get out of their current mindsets.

Like others have said; so what? If they don't want to they don't want to. There's no need to "convert" or (worse) use the power of the state to force/nudge people to live they way you prefer. Some people want BMWs and iphones every year and retire at 70, some want 90s Hondas and retire at 35. So what?

What is it with people, liberal and conservative, that they simply abhor people making different choices than them, and they can't fathom how others can have happy lives that differ from theirs?

Isn't the bolded one of the principle tenants of MMMism?  "this is the one and only true path to happiness, riding bikes and gardening and DIYing projects around the house"?  I mean, at several times in various blog articles MMM has said that if you think you're happy driving a car or Jeep for fun you're wrong and you'd be happier on a mountain or road bike.  I mean, I've ridden plenty of bikes and driven plenty of cars.  It ain't true for me.  Yet here's Thy MMM telling me I'm wrong.

[Scandium]

But what does it matter, as long as the rest of the country remains inescapably mired in their mental prisons? No matter how right these ideas are, people won't be able to get out of their current mindsets.

Like others have said; so what? If they don't want to they don't want to. There's no need to "convert" or (worse) use the power of the state to force/nudge people to live they way you prefer. Some people want BMWs and iphones every year and retire at 70, some want 90s Hondas and retire at 35. So what?

What is it with people, liberal and conservative, that they simply abhor people making different choices than them, and they can't fathom how others can have happy lives that differ from theirs?

Isn't the bolded one of the principle tenants of MMMism?  "this is the one and only true path to happiness, riding bikes and gardening and DIYing projects around the house"?  I mean, at several times in various blog articles MMM has said that if you think you're happy driving a car or Jeep for fun you're wrong and you'd be happier on a mountain or road bike.  I mean, I've ridden plenty of bikes and driven plenty of cars.  It ain't true for me.  Yet here's Thy MMM telling me I'm wrong.

Yes, kind of. Which is why I'd say personally I don't follow MMM-ism. I try to save some money and invest it, that's pretty much it. Like all religions/political movements I'm just too independent I guess.. Hilariously, OP's post could just as well have been from a fundamentalist christian/muslim/jew

[Tyson]

For me, the core MMM is increased frugality via embracing a bit of stoicism which leads to a higher savings rate which increases investments, which leads to accelerated FI as a result of previous frugality and stoicism choices. 

[slugline]

If the entire nation does not become frugal, that is not a signal of failure.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

So let’s break it down real quick so brand new Mustachians will know what this shit is about, while the old timers can stand in the back and sing along.

This is not about being cheap, minimalist, or extreme.

It’s about using logic and science to design a Slightly Less Ridiculous Than Average Lifestyle in order to live more happily.

[solon]

If the entire nation does not become frugal, that is not a signal of failure.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

So let’s break it down real quick so brand new Mustachians will know what this shit is about, while the old timers can stand in the back and sing along.

This is not about being cheap, minimalist, or extreme.

It’s about using logic and science to design a Slightly Less Ridiculous Than Average Lifestyle in order to live more happily.

SLRTAL. I'm SLRTAList.

[dougules]

I think when somebody suddenly retires in their 30s or 40s, everyone around them will take notice.  I think most people have never considered the idea, and if they have they think it's impossible or a serious hardship.  When they see that it's possible with much less sacrifice than they imagined, it will probably spread quite a bit.  It will probably spread even more as productivity keeps increasing, and the lifestyle that made your grandparents feel rich costs less and less. 

If it doesn't spread, though, I don't know that it changes a whole lot for the people that are going the MMM route. 

And, I don't think MMM has much of a cult really.  From what I've seen, most people following MMM are natural-born contrarians that are quick to ignore the tenets they don't care about.   

[solon]

I think when somebody suddenly retires in their 30s or 40s, everyone around them will take notice.  I think most people have never considered the idea, and if they have they think it's impossible or a serious hardship.  When they see that it's possible with much less sacrifice than they imagined, it will probably spread quite a bit.  It will probably spread even more as productivity keeps increasing, and the lifestyle that made your grandparents feel rich costs less and less. 

If it doesn't spread, though, I don't know that it changes a whole lot for the people that are going the MMM route. 

And, I don't think MMM has much of a cult really.  From what I've seen, most people following MMM are natural-born contrarians that are quick to ignore the tenets they don't care about.

I think the word 'cult' has always been said tongue-in-cheek around here. There are some parts of MMM that resemble a cult, but obviously, we are not a cult.

[Cowardly Toaster]

I based my post on the assumptions that A) Mustachians want to see their fellow citizens happier. B) That we are in serious financial trouble as a nation from the individual household right up to national level. Our ponzi scheme of an economy can't go on like this forever, and that in the long run we'll all suffer for that.

And to the folks that said that I want to create North Korea just because I want to see a better financial situation for people in this country, give me a break. That's the Strawman at his finest.

[GU]

I based my post on the assumptions that A) Mustachians want to see their fellow citizens happier. B) That we are in serious financial trouble as a nation from the individual household right up to national level. Our ponzi scheme of an economy can't go on like this forever, and that in the long run we'll all suffer for that.

And to the folks that said that I want to create North Korea just because I want to see a better financial situation for people in this country, give me a break. That's the Strawman at his finest.

I agree that our Ponzi scheme of a government can't go on forever.  The ticking time bombs of (a) state and local public employee pensions, (b) Medicare, (c) Social Security, and (d) the already massive federal debt are really frightening once you start to really understand how bad it is.  But everyone becoming Mustachian wouldn't help solve this problem.  In fact, it would probably exacerbate it, because at a minimum, even if we assume economic output stayed the same, tax collections would go way down. But if by Mustachianism you mean everyone starts to take care of themselves and doesn't turn to Father Government to solve all their problems, then we could roll back a lot of transfer payment programs, paring them down to real social insurance that covers low probability bad outcomes, as opposed to the "cost insulation from stuff you know is going to happen" that it represents now.  If spending could be cut significantly, then we might come out o.k.  And yes, I know, we spend a lot on Defense, and that could be pared down as well.  I'm in favor of doing that to some extent.  But you don't understand the government's finances if you think Defense spending is driving our looming fiscal crisis.

But huge spending cuts are not going to happen.  It's just not human nature.  So we're screwed.  Not hopeless or doomed, just in for a bumpy, sometimes unpleasant ride.  I think the recent novel "The Mandibles" by Lionel Shriver lays out pretty well how this will end.

[Prairie Stash]

I based my post on the assumptions that A) Mustachians want to see their fellow citizens happier. B) That we are in serious financial trouble as a nation from the individual household right up to national level. Our ponzi scheme of an economy can't go on like this forever, and that in the long run we'll all suffer for that.

And to the folks that said that I want to create North Korea just because I want to see a better financial situation for people in this country, give me a break. That's the Strawman at his finest.

Your base assumption is wrong, I want to see my fellow citizens happier...but I don't presume that my way is the only way to happiness. You started by arguing that this is the only path to happiness, some of us are arguing that people can also be happy following their own paths. Don't conflate my charity, desire to see others happy,  with your arrogance in assuming that this is the only correct way of living. Just this morning I had coffee with a terminally ill person, how exactly does mustachian help make her happier? I've met people who have taken vows of poverty, how would saving a million make them happy? We can keep listing exceptions until you acknowledge that different people have different paths to individual happiness.

As for B, right off the bat 20% of mustachians aren't American, a flaw in your assumption that everyone here is within your Ponzi scheme, somewhat ironic to assume only Americans frequent this board, which was created by a Canadian.

[Cowardly Toaster]

I based my post on the assumptions that A) Mustachians want to see their fellow citizens happier. B) That we are in serious financial trouble as a nation from the individual household right up to national level. Our ponzi scheme of an economy can't go on like this forever, and that in the long run we'll all suffer for that.

And to the folks that said that I want to create North Korea just because I want to see a better financial situation for people in this country, give me a break. That's the Strawman at his finest.

Just this morning I had coffee with a terminally ill person, how exactly does mustachian help make her happier?

As for B, right off the bat 20% of mustachians aren't American, a flaw in your assumption that everyone here is within your Ponzi scheme, somewhat ironic to assume only Americans frequent this board, which was created by a Canadian.

And you pile more fallacies on. A dying person is going to have different concerns. That's called an "appeal to extremes."

MMM is an American citizen who immigrated from Canada last I checked, so stop your quibbling. As for the finances of our international Mustachians, I presume that their countries may have similar problems, but that's not my business. I choose to speak only of America in this context because it is my country and the country I know best.

[Cowardly Toaster]

Just finished Affluent Society by J.K. Galbraith (already returned to the library, so I'm paraphrasing here).  One of his points is that our current economy does not just manufacture goods and services, but that demand is a commodity which also must be manufactured, and that the economy also manufactures means of financing the satisfaction of demand.  Further, as our economy grows and becomes more productive, beyond what we need for substance, we have an increased need for manufactured demand, and provided financing.

I think Mustachians have discovered this and they draw a line and decide to wrest back control of their lives.  The line is different for everyone.  But essentially, we say: these are the things I need, and some things I want.  I have done the math, and I will engage in enough mandatory work to achieve those things and then I will stop and pursue goals that are more fulfilling than banally trying to satisfy manufactured wants with the provided financing. 

If someone chooses to remain unenlightened, that is fine by me as long as they don't overconsume.   Who is to say they don't enjoy the thrill of being enticed by a manufactured want and then going about trying to satisfy it?  Perhaps they aren't bored by it yet.

But it isn't that simple. People are overconsuming, and their lives and souls are poorer because of it. If it was so harmless as you imply, I guess it wouldn't matter so much. But it is killing us. The fact is, average people often don't really know what they want or need in the context of society building. For example, look at how fiercely people defend the automobile culture, even if it is making them poorer and hurting our environment. They've been indoctrinated so thoroughly that cars equal happiness and independence that they cannot envision an alternative, even if an alternative might make them happier.

I'm surprised at the replies here. I expected pushback on wanting to use government to go after the consumer debt complex, but I didn't expect my fundamental premises to be so hotly debated.

[intellectsucks]

You are completely right!!!  The problem in the world is that people are too free and have too many choices!!  Clearly the only way to fix all the world’s problems is to force people to live in exactly the way that YOU think is right, since you have solved the question of life, the universe, and everything.  Since everyone will clearly be so thrilled to be forced by law to live the way you want them to, you won’t need to worry about rampant black markets or civil unrest.  Keep those good ideas flowing!!

[Prairie Stash]

I based my post on the assumptions that A) Mustachians want to see their fellow citizens happier. B) That we are in serious financial trouble as a nation from the individual household right up to national level. Our ponzi scheme of an economy can't go on like this forever, and that in the long run we'll all suffer for that.

And to the folks that said that I want to create North Korea just because I want to see a better financial situation for people in this country, give me a break. That's the Strawman at his finest.

Just this morning I had coffee with a terminally ill person, how exactly does mustachian help make her happier?

As for B, right off the bat 20% of mustachians aren't American, a flaw in your assumption that everyone here is within your Ponzi scheme, somewhat ironic to assume only Americans frequent this board, which was created by a Canadian.

And you pile more fallacies on. A dying person is going to have different concerns. That's called an "appeal to extremes."

MMM is an American citizen who immigrated from Canada last I checked, so stop your quibbling. As for the finances of our international Mustachians, I presume that their countries may have similar problems, but that's not my business. I choose to speak only of America in this context because it is my country and the country I know best.

Its not quibbling to point out the irony that you only want American views, unless they're from the Canadian who started this board. You're trying to shut me down unless I only "speak only of America in this context."

The point about MMM is that it took an immigrant to enlighten you, yet you only want the American experience from here on out. Maybe looking for ideas from outside your borders might be beneficial again? Or don't look for outside solutions; have fun reinventing the wheel. I wish there were examples of other countries that have gone bankrupt...or examples when the USA defaulted before...America must be the first poor economy in history!

[Tyson]

But it isn't that simple. People are overconsuming, and their lives and souls are poorer because of it. If it was so harmless as you imply, I guess it wouldn't matter so much. But it is killing us. The fact is, average people often don't really know what they want or need in the context of society building. For example, look at how fiercely people defend the automobile culture, even if it is making them poorer and hurting our environment. They've been indoctrinated so thoroughly that cars equal happiness and independence that they cannot envision an alternative, even if an alternative might make them happier.

I'm surprised at the replies here. I expected pushback on wanting to use government to go after the consumer debt complex, but I didn't expect my fundamental premises to be so hotly debated.

I agree that people are overconsuming and it's making them less happy, not more happy (as a general rule).  But I think the important context to understand is that we're one of the first few generations growing up in abundance.  In the past, life was generally a hard-scrabble existence.  If you did not work, you did not eat.  And when you did work, you had enough for the necessities but not much else. 

Nowadays your basic needs are easily covered with even low paying jobs.  For everyone else there's a MASSIVE amount of cool new shit that never existed before!!!  No wonder we're on a generation long spending spree.

But you can already see that there's pushback starting to happen.  Look at MMM.  Look at minimalism.  Look at the tiny house movement.  All of these are grappling with the concept of "Enough" in an affluent society.  Personally I think it's a pretty cool time to be alive.

[Cowardly Toaster]

You are completely right!!!  The problem in the world is that people are too free and have too many choices!!  Clearly the only way to fix all the world’s problems is to force people to live in exactly the way that YOU think is right, since you have solved the question of life, the universe, and everything.  Since everyone will clearly be so thrilled to be forced by law to live the way you want them to, you won’t need to worry about rampant black markets or civil unrest.  Keep those good ideas flowing!!

 Are you 15years old?

[Cowardly Toaster]

I based my post on the assumptions that A) Mustachians want to see their fellow citizens happier. B) That we are in serious financial trouble as a nation from the individual household right up to national level. Our ponzi scheme of an economy can't go on like this forever, and that in the long run we'll all suffer for that.

And to the folks that said that I want to create North Korea just because I want to see a better financial situation for people in this country, give me a break. That's the Strawman at his finest.

Just this morning I had coffee with a terminally ill person, how exactly does mustachian help make her happier?

As for B, right off the bat 20% of mustachians aren't American, a flaw in your assumption that everyone here is within your Ponzi scheme, somewhat ironic to assume only Americans frequent this board, which was created by a Canadian.

And you pile more fallacies on. A dying person is going to have different concerns. That's called an "appeal to extremes."

MMM is an American citizen who immigrated from Canada last I checked, so stop your quibbling. As for the finances of our international Mustachians, I presume that their countries may have similar problems, but that's not my business. I choose to speak only of America in this context because it is my country and the country I know best.

Its not quibbling to point out the irony that you only want American views, unless they're from the Canadian who started this board. You're trying to shut me down unless I only "speak only of America in this context."

The point about MMM is that it took an immigrant to enlighten you, yet you only want the American experience from here on out. Maybe looking for ideas from outside your borders might be beneficial again? Or don't look for outside solutions; have fun reinventing the wheel. I wish there were examples of other countries that have gone bankrupt...or examples when the USA defaulted before...America must be the first poor economy in history!

Either you are incredibly dense or just trolling. Could you please desist from replying since you seem more interested in snarking than discussing ideas?

[Cowardly Toaster]

But it isn't that simple. People are overconsuming, and their lives and souls are poorer because of it. If it was so harmless as you imply, I guess it wouldn't matter so much. But it is killing us. The fact is, average people often don't really know what they want or need in the context of society building. For example, look at how fiercely people defend the automobile culture, even if it is making them poorer and hurting our environment. They've been indoctrinated so thoroughly that cars equal happiness and independence that they cannot envision an alternative, even if an alternative might make them happier.

I'm surprised at the replies here. I expected pushback on wanting to use government to go after the consumer debt complex, but I didn't expect my fundamental premises to be so hotly debated.

I agree that people are overconsuming and it's making them less happy, not more happy (as a general rule).  But I think the important context to understand is that we're one of the first few generations growing up in abundance.  In the past, life was generally a hard-scrabble existence.  If you did not work, you did not eat.  And when you did work, you had enough for the necessities but not much else. 

Nowadays your basic needs are easily covered with even low paying jobs.  For everyone else there's a MASSIVE amount of cool new shit that never existed before!!!  No wonder we're on a generation long spending spree.

But you can already see that there's pushback starting to happen.  Look at MMM.  Look at minimalism.  Look at the tiny house movement.  All of these are grappling with the concept of "Enough" in an affluent society.  Personally I think it's a pretty cool time to be alive.

I 100% agree that there are some great concepts coming out: MMM, minimalism, tiny houses. What's frustrating to me is that I don't think these ideas are going to every be anything but niche, esoteric things without a little bit of help from the government and cultural institutions.

People might have me wrong. I'm not suggesting the formation of a Mustachian Gestapo to enforce financial prudence. What I am suggesting is more regulation on advertising, more regulations on how certain products are made and imported, changing the way loans are made, what industries are subsidized etc. More importantly, cultural institutions like churches and Hollywood could help too.

[CheapScholar]

I know MMM has argued that if everyone adopted his plan, the economy and things would run just fine.  I'm not sure I agree.  We do have an economy based on consumerism.  The good news is smart people like us can hoard money and be financially free decades before society expects us to.

When I see people making dumb financial decisions, I just laugh now. 

[Cowardly Toaster]

I know MMM has argued that if everyone adopted his plan, the economy and things would run just fine.  I'm not sure I agree.  We do have an economy based on consumerism.  The good news is smart people like us can hoard money and be financially free decades before society expects us to.

When I see people making dumb financial decisions, I just laugh now.

I do not believe that overnight conversion of America into MMM believers is either possible or desirable. It's true that a lot of the economy will need to reorder itself (in a natural fashion, with appropriate market forces)  and that will take time.

[Eric]

But it isn't that simple. People are overconsuming, and their lives and souls are poorer because of it. If it was so harmless as you imply, I guess it wouldn't matter so much. But it is killing us. The fact is, average people often don't really know what they want or need in the context of society building. For example, look at how fiercely people defend the automobile culture, even if it is making them poorer and hurting our environment. They've been indoctrinated so thoroughly that cars equal happiness and independence that they cannot envision an alternative, even if an alternative might make them happier.

I'm surprised at the replies here. I expected pushback on wanting to use government to go after the consumer debt complex, but I didn't expect my fundamental premises to be so hotly debated.

I agree that people are overconsuming and it's making them less happy, not more happy (as a general rule).  But I think the important context to understand is that we're one of the first few generations growing up in abundance.  In the past, life was generally a hard-scrabble existence.  If you did not work, you did not eat.  And when you did work, you had enough for the necessities but not much else. 

Nowadays your basic needs are easily covered with even low paying jobs.  For everyone else there's a MASSIVE amount of cool new shit that never existed before!!!  No wonder we're on a generation long spending spree.

But you can already see that there's pushback starting to happen.  Look at MMM.  Look at minimalism.  Look at the tiny house movement.  All of these are grappling with the concept of "Enough" in an affluent society.  Personally I think it's a pretty cool time to be alive.

I 100% agree that there are some great concepts coming out: MMM, minimalism, tiny houses. What's frustrating to me is that I don't think these ideas are going to every be anything but niche, esoteric things without a little bit of help from the government and cultural institutions.

People might have me wrong. I'm not suggesting the formation of a Mustachian Gestapo to enforce financial prudence. What I am suggesting is more regulation on advertising, more regulations on how certain products are made and imported, changing the way loans are made, what industries are subsidized etc.

You're seemingly confused on why the government does things.  It's a representative of the people.  If only a few people are behind the ideas, then it won't have support of the government.  You're looking at this completely backwards.  The process is not make the government promote saving by forcing these niche ideas down people's throats.  Instead, the process is to get the ideas to be popular enough *on their own* and then they will have government support.

More importantly, cultural institutions like churches and Hollywood could help too.

Hahahahahahahaha

[Cowardly Toaster]

But it isn't that simple. People are overconsuming, and their lives and souls are poorer because of it. If it was so harmless as you imply, I guess it wouldn't matter so much. But it is killing us. The fact is, average people often don't really know what they want or need in the context of society building. For example, look at how fiercely people defend the automobile culture, even if it is making them poorer and hurting our environment. They've been indoctrinated so thoroughly that cars equal happiness and independence that they cannot envision an alternative, even if an alternative might make them happier.

I'm surprised at the replies here. I expected pushback on wanting to use government to go after the consumer debt complex, but I didn't expect my fundamental premises to be so hotly debated.

I agree that people are overconsuming and it's making them less happy, not more happy (as a general rule).  But I think the important context to understand is that we're one of the first few generations growing up in abundance.  In the past, life was generally a hard-scrabble existence.  If you did not work, you did not eat.  And when you did work, you had enough for the necessities but not much else. 

Nowadays your basic needs are easily covered with even low paying jobs.  For everyone else there's a MASSIVE amount of cool new shit that never existed before!!!  No wonder we're on a generation long spending spree.

But you can already see that there's pushback starting to happen.  Look at MMM.  Look at minimalism.  Look at the tiny house movement.  All of these are grappling with the concept of "Enough" in an affluent society.  Personally I think it's a pretty cool time to be alive.

I 100% agree that there are some great concepts coming out: MMM, minimalism, tiny houses. What's frustrating to me is that I don't think these ideas are going to every be anything but niche, esoteric things without a little bit of help from the government and cultural institutions.

People might have me wrong. I'm not suggesting the formation of a Mustachian Gestapo to enforce financial prudence. What I am suggesting is more regulation on advertising, more regulations on how certain products are made and imported, changing the way loans are made, what industries are subsidized etc.

You're seemingly confused on why the government does things.  It's a representative of the people.  If only a few people are behind the ideas, then it won't have support of the government.  You're looking at this completely backwards.  The process is not make the government promote saving by forcing these niche ideas down people's throats.  Instead, the process is to get the ideas to be popular enough *on their own* and then they will have government support.

More importantly, cultural institutions like churches and Hollywood could help too.

Hahahahahahahaha

Well it's true that I'm increasingly skeptical of democracy. Some good ideas just aren't popular enough to get the votes they need.

LOL. Well I guess I'm talking about an ideal world a bit too much here. The hollywood part it is very naive.

[Prairie Stash]

[

Either you are incredibly dense or just trolling. Could you please desist from replying since you seem more interested in snarking than discussing ideas?

Please refrain from calling people dense, if you have a problem with my posts feel free to highlight what it is. If you call people dense or 15 years old, what are you hoping to accomplish? Do you think anyone will read this thread and agree with anything, regardless of how well written and correct you may be? Lets assume everything you've written is 100% correct, will I agree with you or ignore your valid ideas because you called me dense? Will Intellectsucks, tyort1 and the rest of the people who contributed take you seriously now? You can lash out more, at that point you'll be writing for yourself and have failed in your initial quest entirely; lets not let that happen, prove your initial assertion instead. 

My solution to your initial post is to question your assumption that MMM actually brings happiness to everyone, for many people it doesn't. Can you prove that people would be happier being mustachian?  I think most people are already happy, they don't desire to change because they see no need. Here's your chance to show why society as a whole needs mustachianism to be happy.

Its my assertion that most people are already happy and mustachianism would not improve their happiness quotient. My second part is the majority of people can't apply the tenets of saving on their limited earnings, therefore the argument is moot for those so we'll exclude them to avoid the "what about poor people" arguments

[maizefolk]

I'm surprised at the replies here. I expected pushback on wanting to use government to go after the consumer debt complex, but I didn't expect my fundamental premises to be so hotly debated.

Generally when you have a prediction for what is going to happen, and then you actually try it and the outcome is completely different from what you expect, it means one or more of your initial assumptions was wrong. In this case it appears you've been assuming certain views were universally held (or at frequent) among the denizens of this discussion board, which are actually directly contradictory to the beliefs of the majority of posters.

The fact is, average people often don't really know what they want or need in the context of society building.

Well it's true that I'm increasingly skeptical of democracy. Some good ideas just aren't popular enough to get the votes they need.

I think the above is the place where your beliefs diverge from most of the other people posting on this thread (myself included).

[Tyson]

Well it's true that I'm increasingly skeptical of democracy. Some good ideas just aren't popular enough to get the votes they need.

LOL. Well I guess I'm talking about an ideal world a bit too much here. The hollywood part it is very naive.

What's your alternative to democracy?

[Cowardly Toaster]

I'm surprised at the replies here. I expected pushback on wanting to use government to go after the consumer debt complex, but I didn't expect my fundamental premises to be so hotly debated.

Generally when you have a prediction for what is going to happen, and then you actually try it and the outcome is completely different from what you expect, it means one or more of your initial assumptions was wrong. In this case it appears you've been assuming certain views were universally held (or at frequent) among the denizens of this discussion board, which are actually directly contradictory to the beliefs of the majority of posters.

The fact is, average people often don't really know what they want or need in the context of society building.

Well it's true that I'm increasingly skeptical of democracy. Some good ideas just aren't popular enough to get the votes they need.

I think the above is the place where your beliefs diverge from most of the other people posting on this thread (myself included).

Fair enough. And yes, I think I did misjudge readers here. It seems most people here think Mustachianism wholly belongs in the individualistic realm. But I don't get that vibe from MMMs posts, especially the more recent ones, it seems he's been focusing more on the big picture.