Frugal fatigue

[BPA]

I think I'm experiencing it, though I'm not entirely sure why.

Been looking at upgrading computers. Want a big powerful server for me, plus some Win8 tablets (one for me, one for oldest son, dunno if we'd get more). I can somewhat justify the purchase, as computers are my thing, and we've spent very little on that category recently. I have to keep fixing my laptop, it's just not built that well (bought in 2011, at the price paid I guess I should be happy).

Spending a decent bit to go to Disneyland. I know I know, but we'll already be in LA, so the extra travel expense is low.

I know we're going to go out to eat a lot, probably multiple times a week (at least for the first several weeks). Lots of shopping to. We've been holding off a lot of purchases for a while. I did finally break down and buy a new pair of >$100 shoes, which wore out before the year was up (<$50 shoes in the US seem to hold up as well, if not better).

But, I don't want to spend all that money, at least not until we've maxed out various retirement accounts. With a new baby, and less money coming in (due to wife taking off for aforementioned baby), it's a rather lofty goal. I think it'd be less stressful if I simply said "to heck with maxing out the Roth this year!"; then again, I'd simply be moving the stress to a point farther in the future.

Funny how I haven't moved past the "if only we had a little more money" phase.

How much of it is "if only we had a little more money" and how much of it is resenting that all of these expenses seem to be coming at once?

I've had that happen where I go with a want (and my wants aren't many) and then a bunch of needs crop up and I save less that month and get pissy. Happened this time last year to me.  To me that isn't frugal fatigue because I'm pissed at the timing and wishing to be saving more, not suddenly wanting to be spendy because I'm sick of saving money.

I guess the difference is the mindset. 

[phred]

Can there be frugal fatigue?  Of course!  Living always for tomorrow, never for today, can make life seem without purpose - a big 'what's the use'.  Even Mustache admits to falling off the wagon once.
  This is why planning is important - and planning needs constant updating, and planning needs to be written down.  Are you are track towards your planned lifestyle in the desired timeframe?  If so, great.  You can now spend any 'extra' money on experiences in the present: could be an evening at a wine-tasting, could be a month in Paris at a cooking school, could be learning off-shore sailing, could be an apprenticeship with an organic gardener, could be helping Mustache build his house.
  This is why written plans are important.  You have to be frugal if you've debts to pay off, and a stash to fund.  But, once the debts are paid, and the stash continues to grow without much input from you, you need to recast the Master Plan to work on what you really want from life

[Nords]

Frugal fatigue is probably a good hint that you've crossed the line from fulfilling frugality into deprivation.  Even 12 years into ER we still find ourselves crossing over to it occasionally.

Nords, can you expand on this a bit more?  Do you mean you've been too frugal ie deprivation and are suddenly dreaming about/itching to spending a lot of money on ridiculous things?  Or is more a blah blah life is boring nothingness because we've cut everything out?

We just finished a three-week family vacation in Bangkok, and it was an interesting opportunity to reflect on how we spend our money-- or don't.

I'm working up a post on it, but there are times when we play hypercompetitive frugal ball and should probably just stop that.  For example in Bangkok you can buy a complete dinner of street food for under $3 so we hesitated to spend $11 on a restaurant buffet.  What, waste "all that money" and miss out on authentic shawarma?!?  Of course spending $8 for a box of farang cereal at the local Tops was just utterly out of the question.  We eventually realized that we could probably afford to do all three without having to add cat food to the rotation.

We don't spend on ridiculous things, unless you mean $5 tchotchkes that my spouse stalks at a garage sale and then has to dust.  But she feels the same way when I try to upgrade airline tickets to business class, even if I'm using my own frequent-flyer miles.  We're just biased by the value that we place on some of our spending categories, or the anchoring of the prices.  Who the heck knows how much a tchotchke or airline ticket should really cost in the first place?  How do you know when you have too much stuff or spend too much time in airports?  But throw a couple prices on a website, and suddenly we're agonizing over United's fee for an extra five inches of legroom or their luggage charges.  United must have an entire platoon of behavioral psychologists helping to set their prices.

Here's an outrageous example:  I can only surf one longboard at a time.  Hawaii Craigslist is a huge warehouse of used longboard inventory.  An excellent used longboard is about $400, and good ones are around $250.  I could buy a longboard every month, try it out, and sell it for nearly the same price until I find something I really like.  My annual cost of longboard arbitrage ("rental"?) might be less than $1000 until I find the perfect board(s). But instead I've found myself surfing the same board for over a decade because I feel my skills aren't "good enough" to deserve a quiver of longboards.

However my college daughter is bringing home four classmates for their fantasy Hawaii spring break, which includes a mass surfing lesson.  Suddenly I had a reason to own four longboards!  In the process I've discovered a used Bill Stewart 10'0" and a never-surfed Cippy Cabato 10'0" which put my older longboard to shame.  After spring break I'll probably sell my "worst" longboard, but I'm keeping those other two boards.  Yet I never would have discovered these treasures if I didn't manufacture some sort of excuse to buy them in the first place.  Why should I be so hard on myself?

My life has never been boring nothingness.  However we occasionally go to extraordinary lengths to avoid spending money when we could have achieved great pleasure from loosening the purse strings even a little bit.  In other words we're just not spending it fast enough, and after nearly 12 years of retirement I can tell that the trend is accelerating.

Otherwise I think we've done a great job of aligning our spending with our values.  We should just relax and enjoy a few more percentage points of wasteful spending in the "entertainment" category...

[arebelspy]

Those are some great examples Nords.

However during the last 10 years did you ever feel unhappy because of the lack of money were spending? I think you were being frugal, but not necessarily too much so if it didn't affect you in any way. Yes, maybe you could've loosened the purse strings a little bit, and maybe now that you're aware that you will, but that doesn't necessarily mean you suffered from any "frugal fatigue".

I'm looking forward to reading about your Bangkok trip.

[happy]

Ok, I'm with you now. "Hypercompetitive frugal ball" ...LOL I love it.

One of the things I notice is that you seem to have a frugal default system, as you say with specific values assigned to certain spending categories....which is presumably how you are "not spending it fast enough." The question is when to override it, by how much and for what purpose.

[meadow lark]

I have had poverty fatigue, for sure.  But frugal fatigue not so much.  I do get tired of vigilance around other issues - like healthy eating or exercise or cleaning the house, so I can see how someone would get tired of showing self-control with money.

[Ozstache]

I've been frugal pretty much all my life and I can only recall a few times where I was frugally fatigued to the point where I needed a spendy fix to rectify it. As others have said, once you are frugally fit, it is not much of an issue. In fact, the bigger issue for me now is being able overcome spending aversion on something I have no good reason to be depriving myself of given my current financial situation. As Nords states, when you're frugality level is just above even what you would consider to be deprivation, sometimes you go below that hard deck unintentionally and need to pull back up.

[dragoncar]

hypercompetitive frugal ball

[LibraTraci]

I've been frugal pretty much all my life and I can only recall a few times where I was frugally fatigued to the point where I needed a spendy fix to rectify it.

Yes!  I think there are times in life when we feel drained and worn down in general.  It does not always follow that spending money is the solution, or will help us to feel better. 

It seems like people -- all of us raised in a consumerist society -- have this tendency to reach for some type of product or service when the going gets tough.  Parenting is really tough work, exhausting as shit, so we go get a massage.  Bullies in the workplace, so we reach for a bottle of wine.  Loneliness happens, so we reach for the comfort foods.  --  And yet, the proposed solution doesn't match up with the problem; we are just grasping.
 

• nce you are frugally fit, it [frugal fatigue] is not much of an issue.

I also agree with this, but would add:
Frugality always needs to be in pursuit of a vision in order to be healthy and good.  What is it that we're working towards?  What are the things that our cutbacks help us attain in other areas of life? 

It is really easy to find ourselves on auto-pilot, having lost faith our old vision or abandoned old goals, but not really replaced it with anything.  That's when I think frugal fatigue can really set in -- when we feel as though we're on some never-ending death march because truly, we are not marching *toward* something anymore, but simply marching on and marching on.

[Khan]

Frugal ball? I'm in.

[arebelspy]

• nce you are frugally fit, it [frugal fatigue] is not much of an issue.

I also agree with this, but would add:
Frugality always needs to be in pursuit of a vision in order to be healthy and good.  What is it that we're working towards?  What are the things that our cutbacks help us attain in other areas of life? 

It is really easy to find ourselves on auto-pilot, having lost faith our old vision or abandoned old goals, but not really replaced it with anything.  That's when I think frugal fatigue can really set in -- when we feel as though we're on some never-ending death march because truly, we are not marching *toward* something anymore, but simply marching on and marching on.

You are assuming frugality is just a means to an end - a way to save money to achieve a goal, for example.  What if it is the end in of itself?  Frugality for the sake of optimization, efficiency, and not being wasteful.  Frugality to preserve the earth and its resources can be part of your vision, and thus being frugal is always being in pursuit of that goal, and fatigue as you describe shouldn't really set in.

[nottoolatetostart]

You are assuming frugality is just a means to an end - a way to save money to achieve a goal, for example.  What if it is the end in of itself?  Frugality for the sake of optimization, efficiency, and not being wasteful.  Frugality to preserve the earth and its resources can be part of your vision, and thus being frugal is always being in pursuit of that goal, and fatigue as you describe shouldn't really set in.

Love this!

[TrulyStashin]

I actually think frugal fatigue may be part of the journey -- I'm thinking that we don't really know which frugalities will feel like a grind, and which ones will be no big deal, until we try it out.

That has been my experience. I've scaled waaay back in the last few months, in the name of paying off a 2nd mortgage. It's been educational to see when overly frugal turns into totally depressing. Some things I thought would be torture to do without I don't miss at all. But then this week I reached my threshold with mozzarella cheese, of all things. In the past I would always get the "real" (expensive) fresh buffalo mozzarella. This time I thought "How bad can the cheap store-brand mozzarella be? I'll save $3!" It was so completely awful I regretted paying any money for it at all. And yet I can't bring myself to throw it out because I hate wasting food. Damn, I'd pay someone the $3 I saved just to get it out of my fridge.

This is very recognizable! Once you know how something can/should taste, the cheaper alternative can be very dissappointing! But these are things that I consciously choose to spend money on.

Some frugality measures are harder than others and that is leading to fatigue for me in one specific area.  Last May, I gave up my parking garage space for my downtown office tower and started a hybrid drive-bike commute.  I live too far to bike the whole way so I put the bike on the car, drive to within a mile or two of work, and bike in the rest of the way.  It is saving me between $150 and $200 a month so that's well worth it.

Turns out, this requires a pretty sizeable chunk of mental energy -- especially in the winter.  When my job kept me in one place all day long it wasn't too bad.  But now I'm spending about half my time at a client's office instead of my own and it requires mental gymnastics every day to anticipate where I will be and how best to get there.  If I have a day where I'm in one office for half the day and in the other for the other half, it's a nightmare of logistics and "what to wear" (or losing precious billable time to changing clothes multiple times a day).  Soon, I'm going to ramp up my networking efforts as I look for a new position.  That will mean after-work events which will introduce a whole new level of complication. 

I am tired.  Definitely tired of this juggling.  But I don't want to get my parking space back for two reasons 1) the money and 2) I don't want to see the smug look on the facilities guy's face.  He thinks I'm nuts and couldn't do it.  I hate the thought of proving him right.

[MayDay]

The mental gymnastics are what I find exhausting.  That is a great description.

I stay at home with the kids, so I technically have time to grocery shop at five different places to get the best price on everything.  But planning that all out, and trying to coordinate all the trips to save gas, is just exhausting.  I'll happily pay 5-10% more on groceries to limit it to 2 stores! 

[Phoebe]

I'm just now coming out of Frugal Fatigue myself (or whatever you want to call it).  Similar to Nords, I think the issue is that I crossed a bit into self deprivation before and I'm just now starting to find a better balance.

When I first started downsizing and getting my finances in order, I didn't feel deprived at all.  I feel powerful and like I was in control of my destiny for the first time.  Over the years, saving money became my hobby, and while I didn't have much I felt a surge of happiness each time our NW increased.

Now about 5 years in and a NW of $500K+ I am longer as enthusiastic since I feel I have already optimized as much as I can without decreasing my happiness.  So then I looked around and realized that I was in need of a new hobby.  I decided to spend a bit more on food as I'd like to become a better cook, and I've spent a little money (around $600) in making our home a bit more pleasing.  These aren't big expenses, but mentally this was a shift for me in spending a bit of money on something that wasn't entirely a need.

I'm feeling much more balanced and happy now.  I feel like I'm coming full circle, being able to spend a little money on things that will truly provide me happiness without feeling guilty because we've cut out spending on things that provide very little happiness, and my feeling of fatigue has vanished.

[Shor]

I'm just now coming out of Frugal Fatigue myself (or whatever you want to call it).  Similar to Nords, I think the issue is that I crossed a bit into self deprivation before and I'm just now starting to find a better balance.

When I first started downsizing and getting my finances in order, I didn't feel deprived at all.  I feel powerful and like I was in control of my destiny for the first time.  Over the years, saving money became my hobby, and while I didn't have much I felt a surge of happiness each time our NW increased.

Now about 5 years in and a NW of $500K+ I am longer as enthusiastic since I feel I have already optimized as much as I can without decreasing my happiness.  So then I looked around and realized that I was in need of a new hobby.  I decided to spend a bit more on food as I'd like to become a better cook, and I've spent a little money (around $600) in making our home a bit more pleasing.  These aren't big expenses, but mentally this was a shift for me in spending a bit of money on something that wasn't entirely a need.

I'm feeling much more balanced and happy now.  I feel like I'm coming full circle, being able to spend a little money on things that will truly provide me happiness without feeling guilty because we've cut out spending on things that provide very little happiness, and my feeling of fatigue has vanished.

I enjoyed reading this. Cutting out all of those typical expenses and then take a real look at things you want to have, and now you have the net worth to afford these things. It's a double whammy since a lot of people run with ideas based on impulses rather than analysis, and fuel the expense with potential principal rather than post-invested gains. It is truly optimized to balance thrift with utility and end with enjoyment.

[hybrid]

I am definitely fatigued, drained, and just plain worn TFO right now and it would be easy to point at my new habits and say Ha!, I'm fatigued because of all the adjustments I've made.  Not the case at all though.  Fatigued because my son is in a bad place and the whole family is working throught it, drained because the weather has been miserable for weeks on end, and worn TFO because I haven't been getting the same exercise I get in warmer months.

In short, I just need March to hurry TFU and get here!  Man oh man spring cannot get here fast enough!

[Nords]

However during the last 10 years did you ever feel unhappy because of the lack of money were spending? I think you were being frugal, but not necessarily too much so if it didn't affect you in any way. Yes, maybe you could've loosened the purse strings a little bit, and maybe now that you're aware that you will, but that doesn't necessarily mean you suffered from any "frugal fatigue".

You're right-- during retirement I've always had enough money to spend.  Spending limits (and any unhappiness that resulted) have been self-imposed, and usually the lesson learned has been "Well, we're not gonna do it that way anymore." 

I'd say the biggest lesson learned in this regard has come from being too cheap on airfare.  For example, if you fly from Honolulu to Houston it's much less expensive to stop in LAX or Denver (or both!).  OTOH you arrive at your destination absolutely wasted, it's all too easy to miss a connection or get bumped, and it's well worth every penny to pay up for the nonstop.  With five inches of extra leg room.  And an aisle seat.  And hopefully a frequent-flyer miles to upgrade to business/first. 

Of course when the nearest continent is over 2500 miles away, air travel is the last place I should try go cheap.

Perhaps the media uses the term "frugal fatigue" to describe externally-imposed deprivation caused by unemployment or stock-market losses or other external factors, and with no end in sight.  Of course most Mustachians have an internal locus of control (or will soon create it) so we tend to believe that we can reach our goals despite the economy or the stock market.

I'm looking forward to reading about your Bangkok trip.

Two of those posts are live now, and the third one (most closely related to this thread) will be up at 5 AM HST Thursday 13 Feb:
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/01/30/lifestyles-in-retirement-bangkok/
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/02/06/medical-tourism-at-bangkoks-bumrungrad-hospital/

I am tired.  Definitely tired of this juggling.  But I don't want to get my parking space back for two reasons 1) the money and 2) I don't want to see the smug look on the facilities guy's face.  He thinks I'm nuts and couldn't do it.  I hate the thought of proving him right.

Heh.  At my last military job I had a reserved parking space by our building's front entrance.  I bicycled to work so we started giving "my" parking space away to the department Sailor of the Quarter.  Surprisingly, that turned out to be a lot more highly valued than a CO's letter of commendation and the competition immediately ramped up accordingly.  Meanwhile people who didn't know our department's practice would use the front entrance and see that "my" car was changing out every quarter, so they thought I was leasing a new vehicle every year.  Then the rest of the command's sailors found out that my department's SOQ was getting a coveted parking spot, and pretty soon the rest of the department heads were pissed off at me. 

I just smiled and kept on riding.

[ashley]

I go through this periodically, but usually only when I've swung too far in the other direction and into deprivation mode. Finding a sustainable level is really key for me, because I know if I take it too far, I'm inevitably going to compensate for it by overspending later.

[Ozstache]

I go through this periodically, but usually only when I've swung too far in the other direction and into deprivation mode. Finding a sustainable level is really key for me, because I know if I take it too far, I'm inevitably going to compensate for it by overspending later.

That succinctly says what I was trying to get across earlier.

[Shor]

Hmmm... about once a week I do go out to eat with the coworkers.
Now I wonder to myself, is this a minor compromise I make with myself for all of the other times where I lunch in? I could probably resist the calls, but it is well within the budget to allow these minor joys... Does making these small weekly exceptions allow me to continue other frugal routines like bike-riding and buying 'stuff' with less fatigue?

I think each person's tolerance level is different, and it is very few people who can go completely cold turkey on all frugal fronts without making any exceptions along the way.

Interesting note on human behavior in this regard.
If you go full on depravity and make zero exceptions, at some point you might crack, and when you break your routine in one area, other areas of your plan might crumble along with it.
On the other hand, if you plan for and allow some exceptions along the way and stick to within your planned exceptions but maintain all other areas you will be more dedicated to the entire plan for the long term.

Sometimes going full cold turkey on all frugal fronts is not the most optimal approach, especially if you are tackling multiple areas for cutting out fat. Willpower just can't withstand extended delayed gratification for everything forever, in my opinion. YMMV

[Elaine]

I don't get frugal fatigue. I think because before I was frugal I was just really poor- minimum wage and all that. Going from truly living paycheck to paycheck, to doing it in the name of saving the rest of my money is like a walk in the park. I think I'm lucky that I never really got used to big spending, I feel like a big spender now even though I'm still saving 50% or more. The stress of not having money, of knowing that an unexpected $50 expense could totally jack up your budget- I would save a million years if it meant never having to feel like that again. That's luxury in my book- like last winter when I needed new boots and I just bought them like it was no big deal. 

[Rural]

I don't get frugal fatigue. I think because before I was frugal I was just really poor- minimum wage and all that. Going from truly living paycheck to paycheck, to doing it in the name of saving the rest of my money is like a walk in the park. I think I'm lucky that I never really got used to big spending, I feel like a big spender now even though I'm still saving 50% or more. The stress of not having money, of knowing that an unexpected $50 expense could totally jack up your budget- I would save a million years if it meant never having to feel like that again. That's luxury in my book- like last winter when I needed new boots and I just bought them like it was no big deal.

I wonder if poverty does this. I'm surely many years further from my own poverty times than you, and so is my husband, but neither of us has any issue with frugal fatigue. For him, having enough food still feels like luxury when he stops to think about it.

I was never quite that poor, but the security of knowing I can pay my utility bill next month and that I will definitely be able to (almost said "pay my rent" because that's how I still think of housing, but I have a paid-off house, not rent, now) -- that's not something that goes away in a single lifetime, I don't think. I'm not going to get "fatigued" from not spending money. I buy groceries once a week and put fuel in the car when I need it to get to work, also roughly once a week. Plus I pay bills once a month. That's a lot of spending money! How could I get fatigued, doing that all the time? I don't need to spend any other money, so I don't.

[rockstache]

I don't get frugal fatigue. I think because before I was frugal I was just really poor- minimum wage and all that. Going from truly living paycheck to paycheck, to doing it in the name of saving the rest of my money is like a walk in the park. I think I'm lucky that I never really got used to big spending, I feel like a big spender now even though I'm still saving 50% or more. The stress of not having money, of knowing that an unexpected $50 expense could totally jack up your budget- I would save a million years if it meant never having to feel like that again. That's luxury in my book- like last winter when I needed new boots and I just bought them like it was no big deal.

+1 (x 1 million)

I think the only thing  I get "fatigued" about, is that I come from the above mindset and my husband came from parents who spoiled him. Sometimes it can be tiring to feel like the only one who is looking out for our financial well being. He doesn't fight me, he just goes along with it because he knows that it's right for our situation, but it can be draining to constantly be the one saying no.

[horsepoor]

This thread has been a fascinating read!  It seems like there are so many different variables going on here.  Once again, it seems like frugal fatigue can be the same as weight loss and temptation to "cheat on the diet."  The only one getting cheated is the dieter himself, but an overly restrictive diet just isn't sustainable for the long-haul, although it might have the most dramatic early results.  Building sustainable habits is really the foundation for saving and getting to a healthy weight, because, as a rule, the saver and the dieter both want to be financially secure/healthy weight for the rest of their lives.  There is no going off the diet/budget.

Reading the last two posts has made me draw even more parallels.  I grew up in a pretty poor, and later frugal, household.  I learned some spendy habits from friends in college, which I'm just now reining in in my mid-30's.  However, I think using what I've learned from losing 50# and maintaining that loss for over a year now, will translate well to staying on the right financial path while avoiding frugal fatigue.  Just like I used to love getting fast food, which now truly tastes like shit to me, I expect that it won't be too long before things I used to spend money on will lose all of their appeal.  Giving in to that frugal fatigue and buying them occasionally can be a good reminder that they suck, much like food from Jack in the Box.  I also think that this would be harder for people who've lived a spendy lifestyle their entire lives; they have no idea how little they can be OK with, and they're more hardwired to go back to their spending habits, just like people who've been obese since a young age have a harder time losing weight and learning to love their vegetables.

Also, someone mentioned poverty fatigue, and I think that is an important distinction.  Truly having to pinch pennies to avoid daily disaster leaves a person in a chronic state of stress that is much different from the overly-frugal habits of a mustachian who has a big lump of cash and other assets, even if both people have the same living expenses and spending levels.  The stress can eat away at self discipline and drive that person towards that quick fix, whether it's a $5 fancy coffee or a new iPod or whatever might give them some instant, temporary relief.

[happy]

Interesting isn't it?  As i commented on another thread voluntary poverty is much more palatable than involuntary poverty. (and if you practice voluntary poverty, you're less likely to get involuntary poverty).  Consumption creep is nasty and insidious, and just like weight loss its easier (not necessarily easy per se) to maintain and not ever have to cut down.  Yes I'm still trying on both counts!

For that reason growing up poor can be helpful, but I do know quite a few people who grew up poor who now over consume in response to this, requiring brand names to bolster their status and/or accumulating stuff/overcatering and wasting food for fear of not having enough.

I think attitude is key: if one becomes frugal feeling deprived/fearful/ashamed/guilty then frugal fatigue will rear its head at some point. If one has a sense of adventure/fun/challenge/makes a game of frugal hardball then frugality can be a positive habit, not a negative restriction.

The money and food analogy/parallel had come to me as well. Despite what we are increasingly conditioned to think, you just can't either eat whatever you want and spend whatever you want without some personal ramifications. Unless of course you learn to have very few wants  like Arebelspy (who also has posted that he is thin, just to really flog the analogy). Greed and gluttony is deeply embedded in our consumerist society, although many would find that suggestion offensive.

[Cheddar Stacker]

Greed and gluttony is deeply embedded in our consumerist society, although many would find that suggestion offensive.

This is very true, as is the rest of your post. Greed and gluttony (not just food gluttony) are likely the main reason why our society is so obese (not just weight obese). As an example, why would you need 6 bathrooms or 5 flat screen TVs?

Once you change the mentality from being on a diet to maintaining a lifestyle (again food and finances) the frugal fatigue and dietary desires start to fade. I'm still working on both and I've made huge progress since finding MMM, but I'm certain they are connected.

[Rural]

I think attitude is key: if one becomes frugal feeling deprived/fearful/ashamed/guilty then frugal fatigue will rear its head at some point. If one has a sense of adventure/fun/challenge/makes a game of frugal hardball then frugality can be a positive habit, not a negative restriction.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it has to be one or the other. I don't fully understand the first version (deprivation and fear I get, because you may be cold/hungry/homeless and/ or afraid of becoming cold/hungry/homeless). I don't get the "ashamed" on a personal level, though I understand some people feel this if they don't have the "right" clothes or whatever, and I felt just a little of it as a young teenager myself. The "guilty" I don't understand at all --where's that coming from, if you don't mind explaining?

But I don't think the opposite of those feelings is the idea of making frugality into a game. It can be very gamelike, and I think that's a good way for a lot of people to start the transition. But games lose their novelty eventually, and then we either tire of them or we've started to think of them, to experience them as, normal. Frugality is how life is supposed to be lived, the way that feels right. Getting to that point is how it becomes permanent. Or starting from that point, as my husband and I were both fortunate enough to have done.

[happy]

I didn't necessarily mean to imply  some sort of dualism: black/white, positive/negative, although I can see how you've read it that way.

The "guilty" comes from spending when you know you shouldn't eg you have debt, but you do it anyway.  " I really shouldn't but..." If you have a tight budget every time you "fail" you can feel guilty.
The "ashamed" comes if you have notions that living/spending to a certain lifestyle equates to self worth or even a judgement about being a "decent" person.

But I don't think the opposite of those feelings is the idea of making frugality into a game. It can be very gamelike, and I think that's a good way for a lot of people to start the transition. But games lose their novelty eventually, and then we either tire of them or we've started to think of them, to experience them as, normal. Frugality is how life is supposed to be lived, the way that feels right. Getting to that point is how it becomes permanent. Or starting from that point, as my husband and I were both fortunate enough to have done.

I agree with you here.  I guess my point was just as you've said, for those of us who didn't grow up frugal and needing to make a transition, in  order to avoid frugal fatigue, its important to put a positive spin on it, and then with practice it becomes permanent. Interestingly though, Nords after 12 years of ER, still used a game metaphor, to explain his mindset.

[Rural]

I didn't necessarily mean to imply  some sort of dualism: black/white, positive/negative, although I can see how you've read it that way.

The "guilty" comes from spending when you know you shouldn't eg you have debt, but you do it anyway.  " I really shouldn't but..." If you have a tight budget every time you "fail" you can feel guilty.
The "ashamed" comes if you have notions that living/spending to a certain lifestyle equates to self worth or even a judgement about being a "decent" person.

But I don't think the opposite of those feelings is the idea of making frugality into a game. It can be very gamelike, and I think that's a good way for a lot of people to start the transition. But games lose their novelty eventually, and then we either tire of them or we've started to think of them, to experience them as, normal. Frugality is how life is supposed to be lived, the way that feels right. Getting to that point is how it becomes permanent. Or starting from that point, as my husband and I were both fortunate enough to have done.

I agree with you here.  I guess my point was just as you've said, for those of us who didn't grow up frugal and needing to make a transition, in  order to avoid frugal fatigue, its important to put a positive spin on it, and then with practice it becomes permanent. Interestingly though, Nords after 12 years of ER, still used a game metaphor, to explain his mindset.

Thanks for the guilt explanation -- that makes complete sense. For some reason I thought you meant people might feel guilty for being frugal, and that didn't make sense to me.

I didn't mean I thought there was anything wrong with the game metaphor; I've used it myself, and I think it's very good way to be encouraging. Maybe Nords will chime in here, but I'll go out on a limb and speculate that he doesn't often think of it as a game himself -- I just don't think that's sustainable for more than a few years. Could just be me, though.

[happy]

I could let you know in a few years? :)

[Rural]

I could let you know in a few years? :)

Heh. :-)

[Workinghard]

For me, "guilt" comes from spending on a want vs. a need. Although it could be argued, having McDonald's iced coffee is a want not a need.

I don't get fatigued with saving, because I enjoy it and the sense of accomplishment. However, it's harder for my husband. He looks more at the short term, whereas I'm a long term person. He has made great strides, however; in 20+ years of marriage.

[Nords]

Here's my Bangkok-inspired post on frugality after financial independence:
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/02/13/how-do-you-justify-your-spending/

[Rural]

Here's my Bangkok-inspired post on frugality after financial independence:
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/02/13/how-do-you-justify-your-spending/

Thanks, Nords. That says so much better what I was trying to say about frugality being "the way that feels right" above.

[pipercat]

So here's a question from someone who is relatively new to the world of MMM. . . How do you go about changing your desires?  I have only been reading MMM for a few months, and I've already made lots of changes.  However, I long to get to the point where I can honestly say that my true desires are free or nearly free like so many of you.  Is it really stoicism?  Should I be reading up on how to apply that to my own life?  It's not like I have any really expensive hobbies, but I've just assumed a lifestyle of consumerism that I now find somewhat shameful.

I wonder if many of you were sort of hardwired to be Mustachian, even before that word existed?

[Workinghard]

Nords, enjoyed your blog and just signed up for it. Once my boys get your book, I'll send the website on to them.  Thanks!

[arebelspy]

Birds

I've had a few funny autocorrects for Nords, but haven't had that one myself yet.  :)

[Cheddar Stacker]

So here's a question from someone who is relatively new to the world of MMM. . . How do you go about changing your desires?  I have only been reading MMM for a few months, and I've already made lots of changes.  However, I long to get to the point where I can honestly say that my true desires are free or nearly free like so many of you.  Is it really stoicism?  Should I be reading up on how to apply that to my own life?  It's not like I have any really expensive hobbies, but I've just assumed a lifestyle of consumerism that I now find somewhat shameful.

I wonder if many of you were sort of hardwired to be Mustachian, even before that word existed?

I'm, still working on this as well but have made unbelievable progress. I'm somewhat hardwired as I was a frugal lad, a frugal teen, a frugal college student, and a frugal new grad all for very different reasons. Once I got past the low entry level salary, lifestyle inflation got me so I lost my way a bit (or maybe a lot). Finding this site got me back on track, although I wasn't really in bad shape financially when I discovered it, just slacking on the savings part.

For me the biggest changes have been non-financial. I was stuck in a rut, and I have a brand new outlook on life now. Things just seem so much clearer. It has been less about "changing my desires" as you put it, and more about realizing what is most important to me, then looking around realizing "stuff" is not important, not at all. My focus is more about enjoying each day for what it is, finding the good in everything, keeping a very open mind, and living a more balanced and healthy life.

All of this has led to less consumption and less desire. I not only see the long term goal coming into view, but I see it as a very bright path on my way to the goal. I'm happy, and I haven't been able to honestly say that for quite a while now.

[DoubleDown]

So here's a question from someone who is relatively new to the world of MMM. . . How do you go about changing your desires?  I have only been reading MMM for a few months, and I've already made lots of changes.  However, I long to get to the point where I can honestly say that my true desires are free or nearly free like so many of you.  Is it really stoicism?  Should I be reading up on how to apply that to my own life?  It's not like I have any really expensive hobbies, but I've just assumed a lifestyle of consumerism that I now find somewhat shameful.

I wonder if many of you were sort of hardwired to be Mustachian, even before that word existed?

The answer may be different for everyone. Stoicism may be an important approach for some. For me, I think gratitude is a key element that makes being frugal easy, where I don't desire "more" or the typical consumerist lifestyle and don't have to work on being frugal or feeling like I'm being deprived of things. Gratitude, that is, just for life and the simple blessings of each day. I make a point each morning to be grateful for the health I enjoy; the roof over my head; the love of my children and family and God; the fact that I have plentiful food and water. Everything beyond that seems like such incredible excess that it's no effort at all to be overjoyed with what I have. I remind myself at least a couple of times a day just how blessed I am, and it takes all of 30-60 seconds a day.

[sheepstache]

I personally referred to treating frugality as a game, rephrasing I thought what the OP was saying in their second question " is it that some people solve the problem of frugality as a lifestyle"

But while I gamify, it's in the same way anything else is a challenge.  I try to do better at work every day or when I work out, so I try to optimize my spending as well.  I get some satisfaction from reflecting on how little I spent last year, but ultimately I avoid frugal fatigue by incorporating what I learned from game strategies into every day life so that they are now default.  I genuinely like walking to work rather than taking the subway.  My default action is bringing lunch to work.  I'd have to put extra mental effort into going out for lunch.  That sort of thing.  My spouse is often maddened and confused by my ability to squirrel away money in investment accounts.  He says he doesn't want to give up things; he wants to enjoy his life now.  I'm baffled because I'm not giving up anything.  I'm not putting off my life by practicing delayed gratification.  This is my life and I like it.   It's only a game in the sense that I'll try anything for a bit, even if it seems ridiculous, but once in awhile I'll find that something feels natural after I get used to it.

This means that certain "splurges" are also built into my system.  There are things I could do without but spend on anyway.  For example, I could ride my bike to every freelance side job, but I don't really feel like it.  I could keep in shape at home rather than paying for martial arts training.  But I budget for these things and when I do them, they feel like a treat. I'm probably the only one in my peer group who gets excited taking a subway trip like a little kid going on a class trip.


ps. Khanjar, that picture is so sad.  But from a frugal perspective, he should turn the light off.

[arebelspy]

So here's a question from someone who is relatively new to the world of MMM. . . How do you go about changing your desires?  I have only been reading MMM for a few months, and I've already made lots of changes.  However, I long to get to the point where I can honestly say that my true desires are free or nearly free like so many of you.  Is it really stoicism?  Should I be reading up on how to apply that to my own life?  It's not like I have any really expensive hobbies, but I've just assumed a lifestyle of consumerism that I now find somewhat shameful.

I wonder if many of you were sort of hardwired to be Mustachian, even before that word existed?

That's an awesome question!  I like where your head is at.

Let's start with this.  Ask yourself: how do you get your desires?  Where do they come from?  Can you choose them?

[Ozstache]

I find practicing stoicism is helpful to untrain yourself from a level of consumerism you want to come down from. ie. take something you have become used to, and therefore pleasure desensitised with, away for a while, then you really start to appreciate it again when you reintroduce it occasionally. eg. I used to drink soda all the time as the norm, went cold turkey for a while and now really enjoy a small soda the times when I rarely have one. The trick with this is recognising that most of the pleasure comes from the delta from your normal experience rather than the specific experience itself, so overdoing good experiences actually lessens their relative goodness over time. If that makes sense?

[nicknageli]

The trick with this is recognising that most of the pleasure comes from the delta from your normal experience rather than the specific experience itself, so overdoing good experiences actually lessens their relative goodness over time.  If that makes sense?

Very good point.

[PeteD01]

I find practicing stoicism is helpful to untrain yourself from a level of consumerism you want to come down from. ie. take something you have become used to, and therefore pleasure desensitised with, away for a while, then you really start to appreciate it again when you reintroduce it occasionally. eg. I used to drink soda all the time as the norm, went cold turkey for a while and now really enjoy a small soda the times when I rarely have one. The trick with this is recognising that most of the pleasure comes from the delta from your normal experience rather than the specific experience itself, so overdoing good experiences actually lessens their relative goodness over time. If that makes sense?

That's not Stoicism but Epicureanism. The stoic perspective would be to question the benefit of maximizing pleasure at all. You have only discovered a means to maximize pleasure but not tackled the ultimate question which is: Does the pursuit of pleasure add to human flourishing at all?
The stoic answer is that it does not - which does not exclude the enjoyment of an occasional soda pop - which consequently means that the concept of greater enjoyment via intermittent deprivation is nothing to a stoic.

Cheers,
Peter

[Ozstache]

Ok, so I might have got my stoics and epicureans mixed up. Whatever the concept is called, it works for me!

[Nords]

Nords, enjoyed your blog and just signed up for it. Once my boys get your book, I'll send the website on to them.  Thanks!

Thanks for buying the book!

[Albert]

I think part of not wanting to consume always more and more is to some extent hardwired… I've had a privileged upbringing as my parents were among the top 10% in the country while I was a teenager.* As a result my education was fully paid and I've also never really lacked money in my independent life (lowest point financially - 20k a year as a single grad student on US west coast). I'm not as frugal as many here, but I never adopted "spend today and worry about costs later" mentality either. My sister did to her detriment…

*I used to know all the best restaurants in the city as a teenager...

[Gray Matter]

I have read these posts with much interest.  I am not experiencing frugal fatigue, and right now it doesn't feel like I ever will, because the changes I have made are not requiring any willpower to sustain.  I don't feel deprived at all.  As a matter of fact, I feel liberated.

BUT, I have always had a "gluttony" mindset, so I'm not sure where this is going to lead.  And I don't think this is just a product of being raised in consumerist America.  I think it's a personality trait that has been part of me as long as I can remember, likely since birth.  If something is good, I want more of it.  There was no "optimal" amount for me; more was always better than less.  My sister and I joke about this, because our approaches to life are entirely different.  For her, there is an optimal amount of everything (kids, work, pets, friends, free time, stuff, etc.) and her energy goes into finding that amount  and protecting it.  All of my energy goes into managing this "full to overflowing" life I have built, and when i have the tiniest bit of energy left over, I find myself wanting to add something new (to adopt another child, rescue more dogs, go back to school for a second Ph.D., to teach a night class in addition to working full time, etc.).  Note, while these are not typical consumerism activities, they do all require additional resources.

I even find I have a strange thing with vacations.  I get this sinking feeling as soon as it starts, because once it starts, it will soon be over, and I hate that feeling.  As the vacation progresses, I find myself calculating ratios each day of how much has passed to how much is left.  It's quite the opposite of living in the present, this constant calculation of past to future. 

I think Mustachianism appeals to me, because I can see my gluttonous approach to life (even if supported by an underlying personality trait) is not serving me well.  It is leaving me exhausted and dissatisfied.  Mustachianism is really not about money for me, but about figuring out what's really important and letting go of as much of the rest as I can.  I have not mismanaged money so much as I have mismanaged energy.  It'll be really interesting to see what happens to my energy over time, and whether I become more energized or fatigued.

[Noodle]

I think this has been one of the most interesting threads I have followed on these forums!

Given the huge variety of personalities, goals, etc. on these boards there is probably no one answer to why one gets frugal fatigue and whether it eventually goes away, either by itself or by force of will. What I can say in my case is that:

1. Part of not having frugal fatigue is not being in a "hair on fire" situation. The first 5 years I was supporting myself, I always lived below my means and saved but I knew that one major financial crisis was a potential disaster. There just wasn't enough money to go around (looking back, I should have looked for a couple of side hustles but in the days before the Internet that was a little more challenging for an introvert). Once I reached the point about 10 years ago where there was always enough to cover all the needs, emergencies, retirement savings and some wants too, frugal fatigue really disappeared.

2. Part of not having frugal fatigue is that my income has grown a lot faster than my spending (partly life choices, partly luck of the draw). I was just realizing that my housing, for instance, costs roughly twice what I spent when I first moved out on my own, but my income has quintupled.  So in that case, minimizing lifestyle creep can help.

3. Then the part that is more life philosophy in not "wanting" is that in some ways I am very lazy. I look around at other people's things and think about how much work they are. A big fancy house means a lot of yardwork and cleaning, or managing the people who do yardwork and cleaning (I hate dealing with contractors). A fancy car means worrying about damage or break-ins, whereas an economy car is of much less interest (esp since I live in the fancy house neighborhood). Collecting art means taking it to the framers, insuring it, etc.  When I was teenager, I read a short story by Robert Heinlein called something like "The Laziest Man Alive." It was about a guy who was really a relentless optimizer a la MMM and it really stuck with me about how life choices could have a huge effect on the amount of energy (money) you have to put in. (I did have to learn once I became a working person not to use the descriptor "easiest" when trying to convince bosses and co-workers to do something my way. Bosses like to hear "efficient" or "maximizing resources" or "practicing good stewardship," not "easiest" even though I meant exactly the same thing.)

4. I am also lucky in having a good circle of family and friends who are not huge consumerists on the spectrum of American society. They do have some things that would not be considered Mustachian (everybody but me has a cleaning lady) but on the other hand they also choose not to have things that others do (new fancy cars).