Author Topic: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?  (Read 34945 times)

Albert

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2014, 03:12:11 PM »
I just read Linda Tirado's book "Hand to Mouth: Living in Bootstrap America" which is about the mindset of the poor from the perspective of someone who slipped from a lower-middle class life into the underclass through a mix of personal mistakes and the actions of others and I think it would probably help a lot of people on this thread if you read it too.  It uses some coarse language, but it does a beautiful job of explaining how most (obviously not all, because nothing is 100%) poor people think and live their lives.  I really think this book will open the eyes of some arrogant people who were born on third base and think they hit a triple.  There is an awful lot of Mustachianism in this book which Tirado lived by absolute necessity, such as saving money on diapers for her children by using old cut-up t-shirts she bought in bulk at the thrift store

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her story proven to be completely fake?

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2014, 03:42:40 PM »
I just read Linda Tirado's book "Hand to Mouth: Living in Bootstrap America" which is about the mindset of the poor from the perspective of someone who slipped from a lower-middle class life into the underclass through a mix of personal mistakes and the actions of others and I think it would probably help a lot of people on this thread if you read it too.  It uses some coarse language, but it does a beautiful job of explaining how most (obviously not all, because nothing is 100%) poor people think and live their lives.  I really think this book will open the eyes of some arrogant people who were born on third base and think they hit a triple.  There is an awful lot of Mustachianism in this book which Tirado lived by absolute necessity, such as saving money on diapers for her children by using old cut-up t-shirts she bought in bulk at the thrift store

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her story proven to be completely fake?

According to this her story is mostly true - but I'm not that close the controversy so it's just one article :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/04/linda-tirado_n_4381014.html



MoneyCat

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2014, 08:53:08 PM »
I just read Linda Tirado's book "Hand to Mouth: Living in Bootstrap America" which is about the mindset of the poor from the perspective of someone who slipped from a lower-middle class life into the underclass through a mix of personal mistakes and the actions of others and I think it would probably help a lot of people on this thread if you read it too.  It uses some coarse language, but it does a beautiful job of explaining how most (obviously not all, because nothing is 100%) poor people think and live their lives.  I really think this book will open the eyes of some arrogant people who were born on third base and think they hit a triple.  There is an awful lot of Mustachianism in this book which Tirado lived by absolute necessity, such as saving money on diapers for her children by using old cut-up t-shirts she bought in bulk at the thrift store

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her story proven to be completely fake?

No, it's actually true.  Linda Tirado actually filmed a YouTube video of her removing her false teeth to help prove her story.  Part of the confusion came from the erroneous assumption that she went to a private boarding school as a child, when she was actually given a scholarship but still couldn't afford to attend.  Also, her supposed political job that the right wingnuts went crazy about actually only paid $8-10 an hour.  The wingnuts mistook her annual pay of a few thousand dollars for the job for how much she got in each paycheck.  Tirado is the real deal.

There is part of a chapter that deals with the lies and mistaken assumptions right wingers made about her.  There are just a lot of people out there who want to believe in the free market Ayn Rand Objectivist lie that hard work is the only factor that leads to success and they try to cut people like Linda Tirado down because they don't like dealing with the reality that sometimes bad shit happens to good people (mostly because of free market Ayn Rand Objectivists).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 08:56:05 PM by MoneyCat »

waltworks

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2014, 11:55:27 PM »
I'm sort of surprised nobody has mentioned that actually, being poor causes you to make bad decisions (and, of course, bad decisions make you poor...)

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/09/poverty_and_cognitive_impairment_study_shows_money_troubles_make_decision.html

The causality arrow goes both ways here, which really sucks for the poor, and means that something like a guaranteed minimum national income (yes, free money handed out to everyone) might actually be a decent idea.

-W

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2014, 09:06:29 PM »
One of my friends wa struggling a few years back.  She was lamenting that fact that she did not have any money for Christmas gifts.  However, she was getting a generous amount of welfare.  So I told her that all she has to do is cook their favorite foods.  Turn it to a family dinner party.

It is almost as if we forgot how to make do.

Trimatty471

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2014, 09:22:33 PM »
As one of our resident escapees from poverty, let me try to explain the mindset of the poor to you.  Poor people have extremely skewed priorities which are largely a product of desperation for social status.  The poor place a lot of value on frivolous status items like iPhones, expensive TVs, game systems, expensive subscription TV, jewelry, name-brand designer clothing, $300 sneakers, etc. because these items will help them gain the respect and acceptance of their peers.  When I was growing up, I was tormented by other kids because I wore $10 sneakers from Payless and Walmart blue jeans and as a result I had very few friends and fewer options for networking. 

It depends on the poor person.

My brother and I both did the wardrobe by Kmart thing when we were kids.  He grew up with the mindset that his wife and kids should "have the things he never had growing up" and, hence, is living on the ragged edge financially, despite good incomes.

On the other hand, I wore those same Kmart shoes, and I don't give a rat's ass about "status" symbols.

I've got no problem looking like a working class stiff. 

I'd rather be the Millionaire Next Door and look poor, than be poor and look the way Americans think a millionaire should look.

This sounds like my brother and I.  He is the fashionista and I could care less.  Financial security is more important to me.

nyxst

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2014, 06:46:33 AM »
One of my friends wa struggling a few years back.  She was lamenting that fact that she did not have any money for Christmas gifts.  However, she was getting a generous amount of welfare.  So I told her that all she has to do is cook their favorite foods.  Turn it to a family dinner party.

It is almost as if we forgot how to make do.

My parents are still struggling, but every year I get a Christmas gift from them... A nice flank steak, a bag of potatoes, carrots, and some other items. I love it and my kids love it :) I usually cook it up a few days after Christmas and eat for days! It went from "making due" to a family tradition that we would be very disappointed without.

SisterX

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2014, 10:44:03 AM »
One of my friends wa struggling a few years back.  She was lamenting that fact that she did not have any money for Christmas gifts.  However, she was getting a generous amount of welfare.  So I told her that all she has to do is cook their favorite foods.  Turn it to a family dinner party.

It is almost as if we forgot how to make do.

My parents are still struggling, but every year I get a Christmas gift from them... A nice flank steak, a bag of potatoes, carrots, and some other items. I love it and my kids love it :) I usually cook it up a few days after Christmas and eat for days! It went from "making due" to a family tradition that we would be very disappointed without.

This makes me think of the scene in "Little Women" where Amy goes into raptures over an orange for Christmas.

Albert

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2014, 03:32:53 PM »
I just read Linda Tirado's book "Hand to Mouth: Living in Bootstrap America" which is about the mindset of the poor from the perspective of someone who slipped from a lower-middle class life into the underclass through a mix of personal mistakes and the actions of others and I think it would probably help a lot of people on this thread if you read it too.  It uses some coarse language, but it does a beautiful job of explaining how most (obviously not all, because nothing is 100%) poor people think and live their lives.  I really think this book will open the eyes of some arrogant people who were born on third base and think they hit a triple.  There is an awful lot of Mustachianism in this book which Tirado lived by absolute necessity, such as saving money on diapers for her children by using old cut-up t-shirts she bought in bulk at the thrift store

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't her story proven to be completely fake?

No, it's actually true.  Linda Tirado actually filmed a YouTube video of her removing her false teeth to help prove her story.  Part of the confusion came from the erroneous assumption that she went to a private boarding school as a child, when she was actually given a scholarship but still couldn't afford to attend.  Also, her supposed political job that the right wingnuts went crazy about actually only paid $8-10 an hour.  The wingnuts mistook her annual pay of a few thousand dollars for the job for how much she got in each paycheck.  Tirado is the real deal.

There is part of a chapter that deals with the lies and mistaken assumptions right wingers made about her.  There are just a lot of people out there who want to believe in the free market Ayn Rand Objectivist lie that hard work is the only factor that leads to success and they try to cut people like Linda Tirado down because they don't like dealing with the reality that sometimes bad shit happens to good people (mostly because of free market Ayn Rand Objectivists).

Ok, I have no ideologically driven opinion about it nor have I followed the story closely. I just vaguely remembered her story being dismissed by someone in the press...

chouchouu

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2014, 05:11:26 AM »
In case anyone wanted to watch it: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/poor-kids/

I caught this show when it first aired and have re-watched it a handful of times.  I find myself strangely fascinated with documentaries that attempt to cover some of the impact of the recent recession.  I have to say using the kids' perspective in this one makes for an uncomfortable experience at times.  I love working with kids.. and have always found it hard to accept when they must face struggle out of no fault of their own.  (The scene where Kaylie has to give up her dog is so evocative.. you want to reach thru the screen and comfort her.) 

But we all struggle at some point.  The determination that each of the families shows.. to stay together and keep trying.. is nothing short of mesmerizing.  Johnny's family could have had a whole show on just them if you ask me (and MMM readers could ask lots of questions about their commute to his job).  The great thing though?  Even he articulates that he has to get good grades and rise above the situation he finds himself in now.

Social mobility and poverty are such complex topics.  A recent NatGeo article on food insecurity is also interesting: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/hunger/

I found the comments from the NG article interesting. Quite a few non Americans whose opinion is that the subjects of the article show no respect for food. Ie the kid refusing the school dinner, the family eating by themselves, one kid stepping on his food with mother on her phone.

I think those were valid points. For people who are hungry they show very little respect for their food. I'm wondering where this comes from. I've heard many kids on free lunches are refusing the healthy foods. It's not something I understand.

Opinions?

Hannah

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2014, 06:54:04 AM »

I think those were valid points. For people who are hungry they show very little respect for their food. I'm wondering where this comes from. I've heard many kids on free lunches are refusing the healthy foods. It's not something I understand.

Opinions?

I think a lot of kids growing up eating mostly institutional food. From schools, after-school programs, summer lunch programs, food shelters etc. Because the food comes to them as a result of standing in line, they don't really understand food preparation, nutrition, etc.

When these kids grow up, they still don't understand food any better than they did as children because they never learn about it.

In my opinion, in the United States, food insecurity is actually more of a knowledge gap than it is a physical problem. I spend less on groceries every month than my family would receive if we were on SNAP, but I know how to buy groceries effectively. Somebody might not have much money for groceries, but if they literally don't know how to buy, store, and prepare foods, then they will always be food insecure until they are rich enough to eat out every night.

SNAP or WIC are fine starts to reducing hunger in America, but only some families on these programs take advantage of buying low cost nutritious staples so they can eat fresh fruits and veggies all month long. These are the families that learned to cook, and who might be off of SNAP/WIC when the opportunity arises because they can. Real hunger reduction programs in a land of plenty should include classes including how to buy food if you can only afford gas to go to the store once per month.

johnhenry

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2014, 07:33:12 AM »
As another of our resident escapees from poverty, let me tell you that this is categorically not the mindset of "the poor," as if there were some monolithic group of "the poor," all exactly alike, and, ironically, without agency.
......Saying "this is what the poor are like" is no more fair, true, or, frankly, acceptable than saying "this is what all black people are like."

Word, Rural.

Double word!! 


nyxst

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2014, 07:43:34 AM »

I think those were valid points. For people who are hungry they show very little respect for their food. I'm wondering where this comes from. I've heard many kids on free lunches are refusing the healthy foods. It's not something I understand.

Opinions?

I think a lot of kids growing up eating mostly institutional food. From schools, after-school programs, summer lunch programs, food shelters etc. Because the food comes to them as a result of standing in line, they don't really understand food preparation, nutrition, etc.

When these kids grow up, they still don't understand food any better than they did as children because they never learn about it.

In my opinion, in the United States, food insecurity is actually more of a knowledge gap than it is a physical problem. I spend less on groceries every month than my family would receive if we were on SNAP, but I know how to buy groceries effectively. Somebody might not have much money for groceries, but if they literally don't know how to buy, store, and prepare foods, then they will always be food insecure until they are rich enough to eat out every night.

SNAP or WIC are fine starts to reducing hunger in America, but only some families on these programs take advantage of buying low cost nutritious staples so they can eat fresh fruits and veggies all month long. These are the families that learned to cook, and who might be off of SNAP/WIC when the opportunity arises because they can. Real hunger reduction programs in a land of plenty should include classes including how to buy food if you can only afford gas to go to the store once per month.

Good point.. I think that there are a ton of people who nearly pride themselves on not being able to cook.  I like to cook and cook almost every meal and never understood how anyone could feel that prepackaged food tasted better than a fresh meal.  I understand the convenience factor and the lazy-ness factor, but fresh food prepared well just tastes better.  If you grow up drinking Pepsi out of a bottle, eating frozen pizza for every meal, and snacking on potato chips, I guess your pallet never really learns to like actual food? 

farmstache

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2014, 07:48:09 AM »
My mom still does, at 80+, even though she no longer has to.  She convinced herself that it's a delicacy.  :)  She still cleans the bones of a chicken of parts that even dogs won't eat.  I think it's a "Depression" mentality.

I'm glad she liked the damned gizzard, because I sure as heck never wanted to eat it!

Chop them up, stir them with some oil, mix in finely chopped onions, a bit of garlic, maybe dry grapes, corn flour and roasted manioc flour if you can find it and you have an amazing stuffing for the turkey (put a whole orange peeled inside the turkey with the mix), or side dish to eat with rice/beans/potatoes/whatever. We never waste innards here. :) I don't eat them alone, but in this mix (we call it farofa, not sure about the translation), it's amazing.

johnhenry

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2014, 08:52:30 AM »
something like a guaranteed minimum national income (yes, free money handed out to everyone) might actually be a decent idea.

-W

Amen.  At some point in the future.... maybe in 50 years, or 100, or 500.... future generations will look back on our economic/tax/money system and think "Wow, people back then really thought their "money" was something with more value that Monopoly money, something with inherent value!"  Even though they had a popular game called Monopoly that gave everyone the same amount of cash to start the game and $200 per round to ensure a fair game, when it came to real life, they made no such accommodations for fairness.  Citizens were allowed to transfer their wealth from one generation to the next, giving one generation after another ever increasing advantage over other citizens who started out with nothing.  Instead of just giving a certain amount per year to each citizen, they had a host of complicated programs that would provide a tiny amount to the very poor.  Yes, even though that was like starting a game of Monopoly where a couple players got to start the game with all their holdings from the game that just ended, while others started with the game minimum, it continued like this for generations!  Why? That's a good question.  Even though their governments were mostly democracies, people had very misguided view of money and it's history.  They had a primitive, almost mythical view that their money, even though created and distributed as fairly as they collectively desired, was some tangible commodity that belonged to individual owners rather than a token that merely represented the taxing and money creating done by the laws laid out by their democracy.

It was a weird system to be sure.  Just as they controlled all other law, the democratic governments completely controlled the money tokens by determining under what circumstances they were created and in what circumstances they were collected back as tax.  But the government operated as if it might run out of it's own money and as if it had to borrow the money from citizens.  This result was a basically a government, that although politically democratic, was beholden proportionally to those who held it's money tokens, rather than beholden to each citizen equally. 

This system didn't completely come to an end until ......... [I'll stop here until the rest of the story unfolds.  Maybe I'll be lucky enough to write it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the task falls to a future generation.]
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 03:51:09 PM by johnhenry »

KBlynx

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2014, 10:41:26 AM »

In my opinion, in the United States, food insecurity is actually more of a knowledge gap than it is a physical problem. I spend less on groceries every month than my family would receive if we were on SNAP, but I know how to buy groceries effectively. Somebody might not have much money for groceries, but if they literally don't know how to buy, store, and prepare foods, then they will always be food insecure until they are rich enough to eat out every night.


Very important points Hannah. Your comment made me wonder about nutrition and intellectual capacity as well. If one was surviving on nutrient void foods it would be much harder to learn, and harder to understand what you needed to do to better your situation. I'm not saying that nutrients are the end-all for IQ but if you are B12, D, Iron deficient wouldn't it make proper brain function much more difficult? Not to mention depression and other debilitating mental illnesses that can result from a nutrition deficiency as well as situational/genetic components.

infogoon

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2014, 12:49:37 PM »
I've heard many kids on free lunches are refusing the healthy foods. It's not something I understand.

Take a look at the kind of "food" that is sold at corner bodegas in low-income neighborhoods -- grape soda, Flaming Hot Cheetos, off-brand Oreos, frozen pizzas or TV dinners. When you grow up eating heavily salted, heavily sweetened, engineered food like this, you're not going to think an apple tastes like anything and you're not going to want to eat it.

iris lily

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2014, 01:19:01 PM »
I just read Linda Tirado's book "Hand to Mouth: Living in Bootstrap America" which is about the mindset of the poor from the ...It might take a while for this book to reach libraries because it was only released on Oct. 2nd of this year. 

I've got this on hold at my Library now, am looking forward to it.

I think Ruby's Payne's ideas (she is the source for both hotlinked content) open up a world of thought to middle class people about other "classes." The points are interesting, but not gospel for that group of people.


AJDZee

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2014, 04:13:38 PM »
I watched this moving documentary a few months back when I noticed it on the forum - thank you to the OP for putting it up!  (although I think I would have come across it in time - I'm making my way through all Frontline's docs! Two American Families is another good one)

For those who thought the doc was interesting, Global's 16x9 just posted a similar 30-min documentary of the poverty struggles in Canada, from New Brunswick to BC, called Generation Poor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB4w8MQPdEE&list=UUxUD8G1jO8T-Ef2tuADCZOA&index=2

Sofa King

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2014, 04:42:41 PM »
It looks like most if not all of these people were dead broke BEFORE they started to reproduce yet they still decided it was a good idea to have kids.  Even being this broke did not stop them at one kid. They kept having more and more.  Then they complain about having no $$$$$ to do anything.   It aint the kids fault here but they will learn this stupidity from their parents and go and do the same thing when they become adults.  It's hard for me to have any sympathy for the adults here. They need to figure out how birth control works.

MrsPete

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2014, 06:01:02 PM »
*Are gizzards some sort of innards of a turkey, and why in the world would anyone want to eat those? Ewwwww.
Gizzards are a part of a chicken's throat.  Chickens eat small stones and "hold them" in the gizzard.  The stones then "grind up" their food a bit.  I'm a farm kid, and I honestly didn't know the gizzard was edible. 
3) children with nearly nothing, but guilt causing the above parents to randomly and impulsively buy things they simply can't afford for their children (a gaming system, fancy clothes, or pet being perfect examples of this, with the added bonus that the parent doesn't have time to take care of the pet either.)
An off-shoot of this:  You get a really GREAT present -- maybe from an aunt or uncle, maybe from a charity -- and immediately you're sad because you instantly realize that this present requires batteries or other replaceable parts, and you're never, ever going to get those parts.  So you know that you're going to enjoy and LOVE that present for a very short period of time, and then you're going to have to look at it sitting there useless.  Example:  That fantastic little sewing machine I got when I was about 8-10; it required "glue cartridges".  Oh, how I loved that thing, but once the initial cartridge was gone, I was never able to use it again. 

If you're buying for an angel tree type thing, never, ever do that to a child.
My brother and I both did the wardrobe by Kmart thing when we were kids.  He grew up with the mindset that his wife and kids should "have the things he never had growing up" and, hence, is living on the ragged edge financially, despite good incomes.
Kmart?  We wished we could shop at Kmart. 

Seriously, I could say something rather similar about my siblings and myself.  Two of us are very frugal, but when we buy something it's going to be quality.  One spends lavishly on a hobby and plans to work 'til he dies.  One earns a high salary (as does his wife) and doesn't need to budget, but also doesn't see retirement as something attractive.  And the remaining sibling -- much like the brother you describe -- is still throwing herself the childhood she feels she never had.
"She shakes the last seven chicken nuggets onto a battered baking sheet, adds the remnants of a bag of Tater Tots ...her own lunch will be the bits of potato left on the kids’ plates."  -[for the cost of those processed tater tots, you could buy a 15 pound bag of potatoes and not have to worry about crumbs (or hydrogenated oils, sodium etc.).]

"Fresh fruits and vegetables are eaten only in the first days after the SNAP payment arrives."  [suggesting a complete inability to plan even one month ahead]
Yeah, we ate that way during my teen years.  Why?  Because my mom had finally found a job and returned to work, and everything related to food fell to me, the oldest child.  As a teen with no help or encouragement, I was doing the best I could.  We ate lots of Hamburger Helper and Chef Boyardee two-pizzas-in-a-box.  Of course, I learned.  Some people are doing this their entire lives. 
The one thing I can say about poor people is the fairly pervasive 'get rich quick' mentality.
I think a lot of poor people have more of a "no matter what I do, nothing's going to work anyway, so why bother?" mentality. 
makes some people able to break out of the mold?  Why are some people able to escape generational poverty, and others aren't?  Is it a positive role model, a lack of mental illness, inner fortitude and grit, being the right race, hard work or just plain luck?  If it is some external factor, how can we expose the poor to it?  If it is an internal personality trait, is there a way to foster that in people? 
In my own situation, I can identify two things that made the difference to me:

- I was in a family who was first-generation poor; thus, I had grandparents, aunts and uncles who were middle class.  I was always aware that other families were doing better, and I could see HOW they reached those points.  This is very different from people who grow up in generational poverty.
- I was born smart.  I always excelled in school, and I always saw clearly that was the path out of this situation. 
Great thread.  I grew up pretty solidly lower middle class, but went through a period of poverty line living from about 5th grade to freshman year in H.S., after parents divorced and mom was left with 3 young boys.  Mom had dropped out of H.S. and had no real job skills beyond waitressing she'd done.  But thank god, we had strong family support.  I know my grandparents kicked in money to make sure we had Christmas presents each year, adn they were always there to pick us up from school on half days or in other emergencies.  My mom busted ass selling ad space for a local paper, and got her G.E.D., at which point, she was able to get a third-shift bank clerical job sorting deposits or something like that.  Dad was very often behind on child support, sometimes for 6 months at a time.  I remember seeing one of the checks -- $88/week for 3 kids (which even in the late 70s/early 80s was not very much).  I wore what the kids at school called "pro plastics," i.e., the cheap, knock-off sneakers that were NOT Pro-Keds, which was the must-have footwear BITD, and damn, I felt the shame every friggin' day.  Used to be very envious of the food friends ate in their households, and just loved to get invited over for dinner to their houses, and sleepovers, so I got to eat the "good" cereals in the morning. Got free lunch tickets for school.  But mom never went on welfare.  Mom re-married to a good man; tough disciplinarian, but a solid, hard-working guy.  They had a child together, my sister, so there were six of us in that household.  Step-dad was regularly laid off for months at a time as a Union carpenter.  I have no idea how they fed a family of six on what he earned (and I got to find out exactly what they earned when I had to submit their tax returns to my law school to qualify for grants and loans, despite having been out of the house for nearly ten years between my military service and college time).  I don't know why I and my siblings all ended up well-adjusted and successful, but we did.  I think in my case, I didn't want to disappoint my mother after all I'd seen her go through, and how hard she worked to make a normal life for us.  Crazy.   So yeah, I have some sympathy for kids like those featured in the Poor Kids film.
Brother, is that you?  Seriously, a few of our details vary -- five children instead of six, stepfather wasn't a carpenter -- but, wow, I can relate to so much in your post:  Grandparents making sure we had Christmas presents, being ashamed of wearing the crap shoes, loving the occasional chance to eat the name-brand cereal. 
Holy Cow, that second link is crazy.  Their rules for "poverty" are especially obscene and ridiculous.
I can't really relate to those "rules".  I suspect they're more for the urban poor, whereas I was in a whole different category:  The rural poor. 
Real hunger reduction programs in a land of plenty should include classes including how to buy food if you can only afford gas to go to the store once per month.
I wonder if a better system would be handing out FOOD instead of money . . . and make the "handing out" an event.  Include demonstrations on how to cook dried beans, how to make cornbread, etc. 

Gin1984

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2014, 06:52:18 PM »
*Are gizzards some sort of innards of a turkey, and why in the world would anyone want to eat those? Ewwwww.
Gizzards are a part of a chicken's throat.  Chickens eat small stones and "hold them" in the gizzard.  The stones then "grind up" their food a bit.  I'm a farm kid, and I honestly didn't know the gizzard was edible. 
3) children with nearly nothing, but guilt causing the above parents to randomly and impulsively buy things they simply can't afford for their children (a gaming system, fancy clothes, or pet being perfect examples of this, with the added bonus that the parent doesn't have time to take care of the pet either.)
An off-shoot of this:  You get a really GREAT present -- maybe from an aunt or uncle, maybe from a charity -- and immediately you're sad because you instantly realize that this present requires batteries or other replaceable parts, and you're never, ever going to get those parts.  So you know that you're going to enjoy and LOVE that present for a very short period of time, and then you're going to have to look at it sitting there useless.  Example:  That fantastic little sewing machine I got when I was about 8-10; it required "glue cartridges".  Oh, how I loved that thing, but once the initial cartridge was gone, I was never able to use it again. 

If you're buying for an angel tree type thing, never, ever do that to a child.
My brother and I both did the wardrobe by Kmart thing when we were kids.  He grew up with the mindset that his wife and kids should "have the things he never had growing up" and, hence, is living on the ragged edge financially, despite good incomes.
Kmart?  We wished we could shop at Kmart. 

Seriously, I could say something rather similar about my siblings and myself.  Two of us are very frugal, but when we buy something it's going to be quality.  One spends lavishly on a hobby and plans to work 'til he dies.  One earns a high salary (as does his wife) and doesn't need to budget, but also doesn't see retirement as something attractive.  And the remaining sibling -- much like the brother you describe -- is still throwing herself the childhood she feels she never had.
"She shakes the last seven chicken nuggets onto a battered baking sheet, adds the remnants of a bag of Tater Tots ...her own lunch will be the bits of potato left on the kids’ plates."  -[for the cost of those processed tater tots, you could buy a 15 pound bag of potatoes and not have to worry about crumbs (or hydrogenated oils, sodium etc.).]

"Fresh fruits and vegetables are eaten only in the first days after the SNAP payment arrives."  [suggesting a complete inability to plan even one month ahead]
Yeah, we ate that way during my teen years.  Why?  Because my mom had finally found a job and returned to work, and everything related to food fell to me, the oldest child.  As a teen with no help or encouragement, I was doing the best I could.  We ate lots of Hamburger Helper and Chef Boyardee two-pizzas-in-a-box.  Of course, I learned.  Some people are doing this their entire lives. 
The one thing I can say about poor people is the fairly pervasive 'get rich quick' mentality.
I think a lot of poor people have more of a "no matter what I do, nothing's going to work anyway, so why bother?" mentality. 
makes some people able to break out of the mold?  Why are some people able to escape generational poverty, and others aren't?  Is it a positive role model, a lack of mental illness, inner fortitude and grit, being the right race, hard work or just plain luck?  If it is some external factor, how can we expose the poor to it?  If it is an internal personality trait, is there a way to foster that in people? 
In my own situation, I can identify two things that made the difference to me:

- I was in a family who was first-generation poor; thus, I had grandparents, aunts and uncles who were middle class.  I was always aware that other families were doing better, and I could see HOW they reached those points.  This is very different from people who grow up in generational poverty.
- I was born smart.  I always excelled in school, and I always saw clearly that was the path out of this situation. 
Great thread.  I grew up pretty solidly lower middle class, but went through a period of poverty line living from about 5th grade to freshman year in H.S., after parents divorced and mom was left with 3 young boys.  Mom had dropped out of H.S. and had no real job skills beyond waitressing she'd done.  But thank god, we had strong family support.  I know my grandparents kicked in money to make sure we had Christmas presents each year, adn they were always there to pick us up from school on half days or in other emergencies.  My mom busted ass selling ad space for a local paper, and got her G.E.D., at which point, she was able to get a third-shift bank clerical job sorting deposits or something like that.  Dad was very often behind on child support, sometimes for 6 months at a time.  I remember seeing one of the checks -- $88/week for 3 kids (which even in the late 70s/early 80s was not very much).  I wore what the kids at school called "pro plastics," i.e., the cheap, knock-off sneakers that were NOT Pro-Keds, which was the must-have footwear BITD, and damn, I felt the shame every friggin' day.  Used to be very envious of the food friends ate in their households, and just loved to get invited over for dinner to their houses, and sleepovers, so I got to eat the "good" cereals in the morning. Got free lunch tickets for school.  But mom never went on welfare.  Mom re-married to a good man; tough disciplinarian, but a solid, hard-working guy.  They had a child together, my sister, so there were six of us in that household.  Step-dad was regularly laid off for months at a time as a Union carpenter.  I have no idea how they fed a family of six on what he earned (and I got to find out exactly what they earned when I had to submit their tax returns to my law school to qualify for grants and loans, despite having been out of the house for nearly ten years between my military service and college time).  I don't know why I and my siblings all ended up well-adjusted and successful, but we did.  I think in my case, I didn't want to disappoint my mother after all I'd seen her go through, and how hard she worked to make a normal life for us.  Crazy.   So yeah, I have some sympathy for kids like those featured in the Poor Kids film.
Brother, is that you?  Seriously, a few of our details vary -- five children instead of six, stepfather wasn't a carpenter -- but, wow, I can relate to so much in your post:  Grandparents making sure we had Christmas presents, being ashamed of wearing the crap shoes, loving the occasional chance to eat the name-brand cereal. 
Holy Cow, that second link is crazy.  Their rules for "poverty" are especially obscene and ridiculous.
I can't really relate to those "rules".  I suspect they're more for the urban poor, whereas I was in a whole different category:  The rural poor. 
Real hunger reduction programs in a land of plenty should include classes including how to buy food if you can only afford gas to go to the store once per month.
I wonder if a better system would be handing out FOOD instead of money . . . and make the "handing out" an event.  Include demonstrations on how to cook dried beans, how to make cornbread, etc.
WIC used to include classes on how to cook, but they were cancelled in many states because there was no funding.  WIC barely had the funding to give the needed food out, much less hire teachers.  Also, keep in mind many of the people getting food stamps/WIC work and food stamp/WIC offices are only open 9-5 (in many places).

MandalayVA

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2014, 04:15:54 PM »
It looks like most if not all of these people were dead broke BEFORE they started to reproduce yet they still decided it was a good idea to have kids.  Even being this broke did not stop them at one kid. They kept having more and more.  Then they complain about having no $$$$$ to do anything.   It aint the kids fault here but they will learn this stupidity from their parents and go and do the same thing when they become adults.  It's hard for me to have any sympathy for the adults here. They need to figure out how birth control works.

Go into a poor urban neighborhood or a rural area.  What will you see in abundance?  Churches.  Churches that teach that birth control is bad and abortion is even worse and if a girl gets pregnant, oh, well, them's the breaks.  And a LOT of young girls have babies so something will love them.  "Babies are blessings" gets said a lot in these situations.  Four-year-olds?  Not so much.

Zikoris

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2014, 04:22:13 PM »
I watched this moving documentary a few months back when I noticed it on the forum - thank you to the OP for putting it up!  (although I think I would have come across it in time - I'm making my way through all Frontline's docs! Two American Families is another good one)

For those who thought the doc was interesting, Global's 16x9 just posted a similar 30-min documentary of the poverty struggles in Canada, from New Brunswick to BC, called Generation Poor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB4w8MQPdEE&list=UUxUD8G1jO8T-Ef2tuADCZOA&index=2

Holy batman, Generation Bad Life Decisions! Did you see the size of the TV in the Mexican guy's apartment who was complaining about working 14 hours a day and being behind on rent? It was almost as big as his teenage son who was complaining about having to do chores!

Even if he worked strictly on minimum wage, he would be making a good chunk of money working 14 hours a day.

MoneyCat

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Re: FRONTLINE: Poor Kids - what did you think?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2014, 04:30:18 PM »
Reading over what's been posted to this thread since I last read it has been very interesting.  When it came to food, when I was growing up, we only got fresh vegetables from our backyard garden and hardly ever got any fruit unless it was donated to us at Christmas time.  I grew up being suspicious of fruits and vegetables and other perishables like milk and bread, because we usually got them after they were well past the sell-by dates after they were donated by the supermarket to the food bank.  I often ate stale bread and partially rotten fruit and spoiled milk.  As an adult, even though that part of my life is now far behind me in my rearview mirror, I still view unpackaged foods with a lot of suspicion.  Sometimes that makes it hard to be Mustachian when I shop for groceries.