Frivolous careers

[AllChoptUp]

My father gave me great advice when I entered college: Choose a major that I could support myself with. I found something interesting that made me employable. Wasn't my dream major but was a decent compromise.

Dad wanted his daughters (have one sister) to be sure we could pay our bills without relying on someone else. He wanted us to be self-sufficient and be able to walk away from bad relationships.

I took it to heart and things have turned out very well. My sister did not and is trapped in a pretty rotten marriage.

[RunningWithScissors]

Interesting thread!  I'm a product of a traditional 'study hard, get good marks, go to college and work in one career' mindset.  As an architect, the process of becoming registered was lengthy and requires decades of steady effort, but it's paid off both literally in a comfortable and stable job and also in personal satisfaction. However, my husband took a completely different path but is now even happier than I in his career and exceptionally well paid.  He dropped out of high school, and spent the next 10 years trying out every service industry job possible before taking a short course in massage therapy.  Twenty years later, he earns many time the median wage for therapists and absolutely loves his work. 

We've taken two different paths, which gives our kids a range of options.  I also taught college, and it was clear that working/studying in a field that you're just not suited for is a a hellish way to spend your life.  Many student felt trapped into staying in the program because Mommy/Daddy wanted them to become an Architect. 

Life is too short to work at a job you hate.  However, I also think this recent trend towards 'do only what you're passionate about' is unrealistic and misleading.  Sometimes, work sucks, even at the best job.  I guess the trick is to make your work your passion, something that Seth Godin writes about in Linchpin.  Changing your mindset can change everything - a lesson I desperately need to learn today!

[ImCheap]

thirty five thousand per year flying a Boeing 757

Ok, I'm now officially afraid to fly.  That's all pilots make?!

You don't want to know what the Mechanics make! Plus they get to buy their own high quality tools to work on the planes.

[Cpa Cat]

I never quite get the threads about how one really ought to try to make a lot of money from the get-go, on a forum about not letting your job run your life.

Well, if your goal is early retirement, then getting the most financially out of your career is the best way to do it.

"Follow your passion" works well for a minority of people. It leads a lot of people astray. Because it turns out that not every person with a Masters of Fine Arts gets to be professor who tours the country showing off his/her artwork. That job as a Fine Arts Professor is created by the dozens of students who are sitting in that class, following their passion. It's a bit like a pyramid scheme.

And if my 16 year old looked me dead in the eye and said, "I want to be a FA Professor who tours the country showing my art work," then my answer would be: Then you better make sure you're the best at your art, the best at teaching, the best at speaking, and the best at selling yourself. If you can't accomplish -all- of that, then there's a good chance that your dreams will turn to dust and debt. Look around your fine arts classes and know that you will need to climb over all of those people to get to the top of the pyramid.

And if you can't be the best at your passion, then it's a hobby. Get an excellent job that pays well so that you can retire early and guarantee yourself the ability to spend the maximum amount of time pursuing your passion without financial constraints.

[Albert]

"Follow your passion" works well for a minority of people. It leads a lot of people astray. Because it turns out that not every person with a Masters of Fine Arts gets to be professor who tours the country showing off his/her artwork. That job as a Fine Arts Professor is created by the dozens of students who are sitting in that class, following their passion. It's a bit like a pyramid scheme.

And if my 16 year old looked me dead in the eye and said, "I want to be a FA Professor who tours the country showing my art work," then my answer would be: Then you better make sure you're the best at your art, the best at teaching, the best at speaking, and the best at selling yourself. If you can't accomplish -all- of that, then there's a good chance that your dreams will turn to dust and debt. Look around your fine arts classes and know that you will need to climb over all of those people to get to the top of the pyramid.

And if you can't be the best at your passion, then it's a hobby. Get an excellent job that pays well so that you can retire early and guarantee yourself the ability to spend the maximum amount of time pursuing your passion without financial constraints.

That's the key. The problem is that teenagers are rarely mature enough to judge properly if they have what it takes to be among the best.

Having said that let's not forget that some people clearly have both a talent and drive to shine in such competitive winner takes all fields. By the way this also applies to careers in purely scientific fields (physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy etc).

[iwasjustwondering]

I think what truly matters in the end is how hard you are willing to work.  My sister used to have a really weird boyfriend, who stayed up all night long chain smoking, drinking coffee, and writing.  He had bad posture.  He used to take notes on our behavior at family gatherings.  He never wanted to go out.  All he did was write.  Deep down he was a good-hearted guy, but a bit of a bore. He ended up achieving tremendous success from his writing (movies, TV, novel, the whole deal). 

Knowing what I know now about life, it was *inevitable* that this guy would succeed.  I don't know anyone who worked as hard as he did who didn't achieve fabulous monetary success. 

[SporeSpawn]

More important than career choice is a career plan. You can be successful off anything IF you have a plan that works. Starting a garage band and playing gigs is probably not going to make you a successful career... unless it does and you turn out to make more than most Mustachians hope to see in their life. The point isn't to do something superficially. Do it with a plan and plan for the plan to fail.

I went into public libraries, not a career known for its blistering income bracket, but I made it work by planning. I lived below my means, networked, and took jobs where available rather than trying to beat my head through a brick wall in a job that didn't want me.

The same goes for college education. Too many students choose a major surreptiously. "I like reading so I'll be a Humanities major." "I like science so I'll go into biology." "I like money so I guess business." They have no plan for an actual career, and that law degree worth a million dollars is as good as a paper weight.

Do the stats, certainly, but more importantly, learn the field. Find the position you can play. Get there. Have a plan. That's what'll get you through to earning something besides McDonald's wages.

[No Name Guy]

Like this quote, but I never thought he meant it literally. Compared to John Adams' generation, I'm living a hugely luxurious, safe, stable lifestyle.  We're there. I don't have to study naval architecture to survive. I think raising the standard to 'you need to have $200k cash to drop on an arts degree' is a symptom of One More Generation syndrome :)

Well, if you don't have the $200k to drop on an arts degree, you shouldn't pursue one, since you'll (by definition - see not having $200k) need to borrow the money to get one.  They're a luxury good, as Mr. Adams pointed out implicitly by having them last in line.  Luxury goods are best acquired after becoming wealthy.  How does one become wealthy?  By taking up a skilled trade, as Mr. Adams suggested, listing the common ones of his day (and living a suitably frugal life).  Hmmmm....take up a skilled, well paying trade and live frugally.......sound familiar?  :-)

The nice thing here in the first world of today (unlike in Adam's time) is that individuals can readily become wealthy by the time they're 30-40 starting from zero....so wealthy that they need not work for wages another day in their life if they so chose to.  Which will then afford them the leisure to pursue the arts.  No "one more generation" syndrome here.....The arts I'll take up in a year or three when I hit FI involve sculpture....of a manner.  Yep, cold chisel and stone are involved......(Google "golden staircase JMT" for the kind of stone sculpture I'm interested in)

Retired at 63 and Clarkfan1979 - I think you both are missing something.  I don't think anyone is saying that one must pursue a STEM career to do well.  It just so happens that IF one goes to college, those are the ones that dominate the top earners (and also would likely dominate a list of highest payoff degrees).  I don't think folks are saying "STEM Only" - not at all.  In fact, I'm of the opinion that lots of kids today are being pressured into going to college to pursue worthless degrees at exorbitant prices instead of pursuing a career in the skilled trades.  It's a shame that the Education-Industry Complex saddles unsuitable kids with mountains of undischargeable debt for largely worthless products. 

Advantage of a skilled trade over hard to monetize arts degree (until one becomes rich / FI):  They'll avoid dropping a boat load of money on a degree and instead be earning wages while they apprentice.  Or they'll come out of tech school in half the time (or less) at a far lower cost.  There's a direct path to well paying employment.  Ceramics person up thread - ok, please tell us the concrete way how a new BA of MFA Ceramics monetizes that degree, one that works for MOST of the graduates?  For the trades it's easy to say how one monetizes their training - apprentice lineman becomes journeyman lineman at local utility (or any utility for that matter), diesel mechanic school grad starts wrenching on diesels at local repair shop, welder welds at the Ironworker Union or shipyard, Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic school grad gets job at airline wrenching 737's, Truck driver school grad takes up driving trucks, etc.  Pretty much any person who completes a reputable program (and does so reasonably well) can find their way to employment in their field of training.

A few years ago the local utility was bemoaning the fact that they couldn't find enough people interested in the lineman trade.  Good money and you get paid to apprentice to learn a skill that is readily marketable.  If you have your head on straight, you'll be retired by 35 if you start right out of high school.....and no student loan debt when you're 22 either - instead, you'll have been earning apprentice wages those last 4 years. 

[Albert]

Why does a chosen field of study necessarily has to work for MOST people attempting it? One could aim to be among the special ones!

For most people it will not work, but if you have a talent for some special field and a very good work ethic as well then why not go for it?

[Beric01]

Why does a chosen field of study necessarily has to work for MOST people attempting it? One could aim to be among the special ones!

For most people it will not work, but if you have a talent for some special field and a very good work ethic as well then why not go for it?

If it works for most people, it's got a good chance for working for you. If it doesn't, you wasted 4 years of your life AND a lot of money. No small consequences.

A lot of young people are disillusioned with their prospects in a particular career. My cousin was 100% going to be in baseball as a career through college, but he just couldn't make it. Now he's working in sales and hates his job.

[MoneyCat]

A friend of mine has parents who own a very successful international business.  He got his degree in Philosophy.  I'm pretty sure he'll be a success.  The average person with a Philosophy degree without those kinds of connections, though, is going to end up working in a coffee shop.  Frivolous degrees are for people with trust funds.  The rest of us need to get real degrees.  I wish I had known that before I went to college.

[Cwadda]

I was accepted as both a biology and music major. Music is my passion. I went with Biology, didn't want to go to med school, switched to Pharmacy, hated that, and now I'm in for a double major BS in Environment Science and Geology. And I'm getting a Masters right after.

Did I forgo music for a more stable and high-paying career? Yes. But it's not like I hate my major now. If I want to achieve FIRE and spend time doing the things I love, then this is how I'm going to do it. I also got extremely lucky with a part time music gig that pays well and enough to cover my college expenses!

[Skyhigh]

It is a fault of nature that put an idiot 18 year old in charge of my future.

Skyhigh

[iwasjustwondering]

I object to even the word "frivolous" here.  It's so anti-intellectual and so self-defeating.  As a society, we need historians and writers and philosophers.  Are we so downtrodden by our classist society that we really believe only trust fund babies should bother engaging in intellectual pursuits?  Is earning money our only function?  What about building the civil society we live in? 

[expatartist]

If it works for most people, it's got a good chance for working for you. If it doesn't, you wasted 4 years of your life AND a lot of money.

That is exactly the point. The fine arts don't work for most people. One is defying logic, the status quo, and good sense to go into the field. We all know this going in. But TBH I didn't give a damn. My parents disowned me for years. I went to a public university and graduated with debt in the very low 2 figures, took chances with my life and career, traveled overseas whenever and however I could, and searched endlessly for ways to live in countries which interested me more than the US. I decided to never get into debt for school again so avoided the MFA and classic art-teaching track. Supported myself through various arts, photo, and publishing projects, and dayjobs. Once I left the US I did English teaching on the side occasionally to sponsor my visa (a Bachelors is necessary to get these visas). Later I ended up as artist-in-residence at a university in Malaysia - where they bring in a professional with experience in different aspects of art than a professor has to offer - and enjoyed the collegial atmosphere and vast resources available compared to working on my own, so took on a similar position in China when it opened up.

it turns out that not every person with a Masters of Fine Arts gets to be professor who tours the country showing off his/her artwork. That job as a Fine Arts Professor is created by the dozens of students who are sitting in that class, following their passion. It's a bit like a pyramid scheme.

^^ The pyramid scheme is another reason I avoided the university-teaching track. What is interesting: as noted upthread, many successful artists don't even have an art degree, via http://bfamfaphd.com/ Most art students don't end up as full-time artists anyway. It's a hothouse environment and by the time they graduate, they know they'll be doing something else - they're just not sure what.

Where I work now is in an educational org, but I don't teach directly. I make my work in a studio, am well compensated for it (particularly given the low COL here), give art workshops, design projects for campus display and students, curate shows, and work with marketing/admissions to promote art on 3 campuses. Every day is different. Every day is all about art. How did I get this job? By being in the right place at the right time. Promoting my work in person and online. Making art which happens to be accessible and links science, art, and various cultures together in a way which some people find interesting. Writing about it in a way which ordinary people understand. Working hard. Working for years, sometimes for free. It's not a path I would recommend for anyone. My job has little to do directly with the commercial/gallery or theory-driven academic artworld, but it intersects to a degree, with my exhibitions here. This job is also not the kind of thing which one can or should do for decades on end -- it can lead to creative stagnation and the org needs fresh ideas. After several contracts (and my nest egg which will grow for a decade) we will move on and I'll make art in a different context.

At the end of the day, in order to be paid for what we do, we must be in some way useful, somewhere. 'Useful' runs the gamut between building bridges and computers to entertainment to propaganda. STEM careers pay well, I appreciate what they do, and I prefer hanging out with scientists to artists any day of the week, but I am 100% happy financially and in every respect with what I do. I couldn't have gotten to where I am today without the BFA in Painting. But as mentioned by previous posters, there are now many ways to educate ourselves beyond the secondary level required by most first world governments. This is true all our lives, not just for our undergraduate degrees.

[retired?]

Came across this about a year ago or so.  I think it is informative.

http://www.dilbert.com/blog/entry/follow_your_passion/

I think just like rich Dem politicians forget how they got there and want to give everyone else's money away, it is similar that many an elder will tell people to "follow your passion and the rest will come".  Easy enough to say....especially if you didn't do that yourself, but it often doesn't work out that way. 

[Skyhigh]

I was accepted as both a biology and music major. Music is my passion. I went with Biology, didn't want to go to med school, switched to Pharmacy, hated that, and now I'm in for a double major BS in Environment Science and Geology. And I'm getting a Masters right after.

Did I forgo music for a more stable and high-paying career? Yes. But it's not like I hate my major now. If I want to achieve FIRE and spend time doing the things I love, then this is how I'm going to do it. I also got extremely lucky with a part time music gig that pays well and enough to cover my college expenses!

Even though you may hate it Pharmacy is still the better way to achieve FIRE. If you are lucky enough to become employed through geology or environment science the careers most likely will dictate where and how you live. You could be pushed out or a job with every budget cut, contract fulfillment, or regime change. As a pharmacist you can work in most any town at an upper middle class income. Our aging population will certainly need more pharmacists over time however geologists are not in high demand. I see a lot of geologists and environment majors who end up steaming milk for hire after college or living in a grass hut overseas for meager incomes.

Skyhigh

[justajane]

Well, I got a bachelor's and a master's in ceramic art, which my parents thought was a bad idea and some of my friends who were business majors really scoffed at. Now I'm doing exactly what I want with my life, making and selling art, working as a professor at a major University, ..

So your real income comes from being a professor, that's fine.   But how many of your classmates (you know, the people who also got masters degrees in ceramic art) are profs?     How many of them make a living selling ceramic art?     How many of them sell used cars?    How many of them work at Walmart?   

What's with the lingering perception on here that humanities graduates end up working at Walmart? It might be hard to find the statistic, but I would be very surprised if a significant numbers of Walmart employees had four year college degrees at all.

[amyable]

Well, I got a bachelor's and a master's in ceramic art, which my parents thought was a bad idea and some of my friends who were business majors really scoffed at. Now I'm doing exactly what I want with my life, making and selling art, working as a professor at a major University, ..

So your real income comes from being a professor, that's fine.   But how many of your classmates (you know, the people who also got masters degrees in ceramic art) are profs?     How many of them make a living selling ceramic art?     How many of them sell used cars?    How many of them work at Walmart?   

What's with the lingering perception on here that humanities graduates end up working at Walmart? It might be hard to find the statistic, but I would be very surprised if a significant numbers of Walmart employees had four year college degrees at all.

Agreed--I have a two friends who have struggled to find jobs with "frivolous" degrees, but now at 30, one works at a children's museum (making about 45K), and the other works in student affairs leadership at a major university (about 55K).  I mean, not high incomes, but not minimum wage or anything.

I loved getting my degree in English and Art History.  I loved teaching English, and I currently love being a school counselor.  I really just wanted to avoid working in jobs I hate--I think I would loathe working in STEM. 

[franklin w. dixon]

For the last group of majors, if they cannot prove that those majors align with real jobs and that there are sufficient job openings in the marketplace then they get zero credit from the federal government.  Just because there's a few people that get jobs in the arts doesn't mean its a reliable job market to support hundreds of thousands of students getting arts degrees.  Those majors would get $0 in federal support on the basis that they cannot be proven to have a reliable ROI.  People who truly love the arts will still get those degrees, but everyone else will be persuaded to get a degree from one of the other two categories of majors where they are more likely to get a good paying job.

I don't think there are any majors like this, with median incomes below 3x the poverty line.  The lowest-paying college major I could find was "Child and Family Studies" at median income of $37,200.  The second lowest was "Elementary Education" at $45,300.

There's this trope on this site about people with frivolous majors not making any money, but the fact is that even these "frivolous majors" still result in higher median incomes than people who don't go to college at all: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=data&state=0&submeasure=368

And everyone dances around worshiping the STEM idol and pretending they're the smartest turd in the bowl because they went to engineering school when in point of actual fact high salaries and especially secure employment in STEM fields is mostly a myth http://www.cjr.org/essay/it_doesnt_add_up.php?page=all

[franklin w. dixon]

I object to even the word "frivolous" here.  It's so anti-intellectual and so self-defeating.  As a society, we need historians and writers and philosophers.  Are we so downtrodden by our classist society that we really believe only trust fund babies should bother engaging in intellectual pursuits?  Is earning money our only function?  What about building the civil society we live in?

Another thing that I think is really funny is the guys at the tippy top of politics and business who are trumpeting STEM STEM STEM from every podium at the congressional debate and charter school symposium and Education Subcommittee for the Abolition of Art and Recess? Yeah, they all have humanities degrees from Ivy League schools. Very curious!

[franklin w. dixon]

If only the young people would obey their social betters things would be much simpler...

[iwasjustwondering]

For the last group of majors, if they cannot prove that those majors align with real jobs and that there are sufficient job openings in the marketplace then they get zero credit from the federal government.  Just because there's a few people that get jobs in the arts doesn't mean its a reliable job market to support hundreds of thousands of students getting arts degrees.  Those majors would get $0 in federal support on the basis that they cannot be proven to have a reliable ROI.  People who truly love the arts will still get those degrees, but everyone else will be persuaded to get a degree from one of the other two categories of majors where they are more likely to get a good paying job.

I don't think there are any majors like this, with median incomes below 3x the poverty line.  The lowest-paying college major I could find was "Child and Family Studies" at median income of $37,200.  The second lowest was "Elementary Education" at $45,300.

There's this trope on this site about people with frivolous majors not making any money, but the fact is that even these "frivolous majors" still result in higher median incomes than people who don't go to college at all: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=data&state=0&submeasure=368

And everyone dances around worshiping the STEM idol and pretending they're the smartest turd in the bowl because they went to engineering school when in point of actual fact high salaries and especially secure employment in STEM fields is mostly a myth http://www.cjr.org/essay/it_doesnt_add_up.php?page=all

Yup.  A lot of this is neocon nonsense, where we're all supposed to be mechanics or engineers and not worry ourselves with what is actually going on in society.  Reading, understanding history and politics, and analysis are for the upper classes, not for us peons, amirite?

[franklin w. dixon]

Yup.  A lot of this is neocon nonsense, where we're all supposed to be mechanics or engineers and not worry ourselves with what is actually going on in society.  Reading, understanding history and politics, and analysis are for the upper classes, not for us peons, amirite?

"Pfooey!" I said with a sneer. "Underwater basket weaving more like, lol." Not me though. I was smarter, more learned, more mature than those jerks who never invited me to any parties, not that I even wanted to go anyway. I was getting a degree in video game design.

[justajane]

For the last group of majors, if they cannot prove that those majors align with real jobs and that there are sufficient job openings in the marketplace then they get zero credit from the federal government.  Just because there's a few people that get jobs in the arts doesn't mean its a reliable job market to support hundreds of thousands of students getting arts degrees.  Those majors would get $0 in federal support on the basis that they cannot be proven to have a reliable ROI.  People who truly love the arts will still get those degrees, but everyone else will be persuaded to get a degree from one of the other two categories of majors where they are more likely to get a good paying job.

I don't think there are any majors like this, with median incomes below 3x the poverty line.  The lowest-paying college major I could find was "Child and Family Studies" at median income of $37,200.  The second lowest was "Elementary Education" at $45,300.

There's this trope on this site about people with frivolous majors not making any money, but the fact is that even these "frivolous majors" still result in higher median incomes than people who don't go to college at all: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=data&state=0&submeasure=368

And everyone dances around worshiping the STEM idol and pretending they're the smartest turd in the bowl because they went to engineering school when in point of actual fact high salaries and especially secure employment in STEM fields is mostly a myth http://www.cjr.org/essay/it_doesnt_add_up.php?page=all

Yup.  A lot of this is neocon nonsense, where we're all supposed to be mechanics or engineers and not worry ourselves with what is actually going on in society.  Reading, understanding history and politics, and analysis are for the upper classes, not for us peons, amirite?

This is so true. We will all be one-trick ponies who know how to do one or two things that the trades teach, while the upper classes will still read Machiavelli and know how manipulate us all. Bwahahaha.

Plus this whole idea that you should follow the next employment trend is rather misleading. As a lapsed academic/Ph.D. seeking reasonably paid part-time employment for the future (3 kids, would prefer not to be a fully dual income household), I keep on doing research about what would be the best thing to pursue. I read an article that dental hygienists do well and only work part-time. The education threshold is relatively low as well. But then I mentioned it at my last dentist appointment and the hygienist giggled and said, "There's tons of unemployment in this field." The same thing happened to me when I looked into radiology tech positions. So, imagine if I had gotten my associate's degree in one of these "growing" fields  (and been clueless enough to get it at a for profit college to the tune of $20,000+) and then couldn't find employment. It's not like I can diversify or look for something different. After all, I only trained to do one thing, whether it be to clean teeth or look for blood clots.

Humanities degrees from well-regarded institutions like my alma mater (top 15) at least get you in the door of the business world, and you can harness the alumni network.

[Skyhigh]

I have a French literature degree.

I now work in government communications/PR/media relations.  Some might consider my degree frivolous, but it's an interesting job, with very generous pay and benefits.  So I don't consider it to have been a frivolous endeavour.  I do a job I enjoy, meet interesting people, learn all kinds of new things, get paid very well, and most days I feel like what I'm doing could make a positive difference in someone's life.

People often forget about the very practical career possibilities for people with Arts/Humanities degrees.  Corporate communications (or government comms, PR, etc.) can be really interesting, and even in the private sector, the pay isn't terrible (not awesome, but not miserable either).  I work with policy analysts who have degrees in philosophy and also really enjoy their jobs and get paid well.  It's not all doom and gloom.

Yup.  I majored in English, and got a master's in Irish Literature.  I will make around $214,000 this year, mostly from my public relations job.  This work was also fantastic when I was a mother of young kids -- I worked as a freelance writer/PR consultant.  I had some lean years, but ended the run with a two-year contract for a retainer of $72K per year for 20 hours per week of work.

I won $50 bucks on a one dollar lottery ticket once. Luck, hard work, and circumstance has a role in all our lives however it seems to me that most English majors can not expect a similar outcome.

Skyhigh

I disagree.  Writing in a persuasive way, managing a large corporation's reputation and perception in the marketplace, is a very valuable skill.  It pays well.  It's more strategic than, say, fixing computers.  I can't swing a cat in NJ without hitting a dozen $200k English majors. 

Also, what about serving society?  Not me, but what about knowing history?  Is the intense study of history (beyond high school) valuable in any way for society?  Or is it just about cranking up the dollar-producing machine?

Perhaps the cost of living is so high in NJ that the mailman earns $200K too? Where I live English majors serve coffee and a brand new house costs $180,000.

Skyhigh

[iwasjustwondering]

COL is very high here, but our public (and private) education is excellent.  It's worth it to me to live in a place that puts a very high value on education. 

[Cwadda]

If you are lucky enough to become employed through geology or environment science the careers most likely will dictate where and how you live. You could be pushed out or a job with every budget cut, contract fulfillment, or regime change.

I think this could be the case for MANY professions out there, not just ENVS or Geology. There's also been a flood of pharmacy grads which makes getting a pharmacy job in the New England region, so a lot of grads end up moving down south for better job prospects.

Even though you may hate it Pharmacy is still the better way to achieve FIRE.

Yeah, and I'm not going to spend my life behind a counter doing something I hate and dealing with horrible customers that want their meds. I'm okay with that.

I see a lot of geologists and environment majors who end up steaming milk for hire after college or living in a grass hut overseas for meager incomes.

That's interesting, because many of the ENVS/geology people I've spoken with (probably ~50 people right now) haven't described it like that. Is this your opinion based on some anecdotal information? Seems a bit hyperbolic...Also I worked over the summer at a rate of 52k/year + an expected bonus, which is decent for someone without a degree.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to see where you're getting your info...

[Skyhigh]

COL is very high here, but our public (and private) education is excellent.  It's worth it to me to live in a place that puts a very high value on education.

I am learning new things here everyday. I use to fly into Newark frequently as an airline pilot. I assume that you live far away from that part of NJ.

Skyhigh

[mom2_3Hs]

This brings up the whole issue of, what's the point of a career?  If it is to spend time doing what you love and getting paid for it, who cares if you have a low pay?  If you love what you do and are willing to live within those constraints, more power to you.  In a way, then you don't need to retire, ever, because you love what you do.

On the other hand, if you are brilliant at something that pays well but hate it, work as little as possible for as short of a duration as possible, so you can maximize your happiness.

[Skyhigh]

This brings up the whole issue of, what's the point of a career?  If it is to spend time doing what you love and getting paid for it, who cares if you have a low pay?  If you love what you do and are willing to live within those constraints, more power to you.  In a way, then you don't need to retire, ever, because you love what you do.

On the other hand, if you are brilliant at something that pays well but hate it, work as little as possible for as short of a duration as possible, so you can maximize your happiness.

Maybe but within the context of what it means to be a Mustachian I believe it means to be working towards freedom from wage earning employment regardless of its fun factor.

Skyhigh

[iwasjustwondering]

If you are lucky enough to become employed through geology or environment science the careers most likely will dictate where and how you live. You could be pushed out or a job with every budget cut, contract fulfillment, or regime change.

I think this could be the case for MANY professions out there, not just ENVS or Geology. There's also been a flood of pharmacy grads which makes getting a pharmacy job in the New England region, so a lot of grads end up moving down south for better job prospects.

Even though you may hate it Pharmacy is still the better way to achieve FIRE.

Yeah, and I'm not going to spend my life behind a counter doing something I hate and dealing with horrible customers that want their meds. I'm okay with that.

I see a lot of geologists and environment majors who end up steaming milk for hire after college or living in a grass hut overseas for meager incomes.

That's interesting, because many of the ENVS/geology people I've spoken with (probably ~50 people right now) haven't described it like that. Is this your opinion based on some anecdotal information? Seems a bit hyperbolic...Also I worked over the summer at a rate of 52k/year + an expected bonus, which is decent for someone without a degree.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to see where you're getting your info...

It is so frustrating when the frivolous people refuse to fail...

[mom2_3Hs]

We differ then. I would much rather work longer at something I enjoy and find productive than killing my soul doing something I hate, even if it brings "freedom from wage earning". 

[Skyhigh]

If you are lucky enough to become employed through geology or environment science the careers most likely will dictate where and how you live. You could be pushed out or a job with every budget cut, contract fulfillment, or regime change.

I think this could be the case for MANY professions out there, not just ENVS or Geology. There's also been a flood of pharmacy grads which makes getting a pharmacy job in the New England region, so a lot of grads end up moving down south for better job prospects.

Even though you may hate it Pharmacy is still the better way to achieve FIRE.

Yeah, and I'm not going to spend my life behind a counter doing something I hate and dealing with horrible customers that want their meds. I'm okay with that.

I see a lot of geologists and environment majors who end up steaming milk for hire after college or living in a grass hut overseas for meager incomes.

That's interesting, because many of the ENVS/geology people I've spoken with (probably ~50 people right now) haven't described it like that. Is this your opinion based on some anecdotal information? Seems a bit hyperbolic...Also I worked over the summer at a rate of 52k/year + an expected bonus, which is decent for someone without a degree.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to see where you're getting your info...

I work with a lot of college people and am able to view their professional trajectories after college and there is a pattern regarding disciplines of study and common outcomes. I have also noticed a correation with those who are prepared to roll up their sleeves and work in college and after, and those who choose a self indulgent dicipline. I have never seen a pharmacy major come back to school for a career change but I see lots of other graduates return.

I believe it is related to expectations and work ethic. No one who enters an accounting degree thinks it will be fun. They do it because it is hard and because employers will pay a premium for those skills. Plumbers do well because few will crawl under a strangers house to fix a sewer problem. Fun jobs generally pay less because there is competition for those positions and employees will accept fun as compensation in place of cash. No one however will crawl under a house for fun.

Skyhigh

[Skyhigh]

We differ then. I would much rather work longer at something I enjoy and find productive than killing my soul doing something I hate, even if it brings "freedom from wage earning".

Life is about choices and sacrifice. In America we are lead to believe that we can have it all but commonly we can't. I had a fun job and the lack of resources quickly made it a nightmare. Now I have a job that I am not very excited about but it provides for a life that I am excited about.

Skyhigh

[mom2_3Hs]

I am a chemist, working at a small college.  I mostly love what I do, love the freedom of my profession, and love helping students follow their dreams/pursue their interests/learn what they need to for their chosen profession.  I could make twice as much in industry, but then I would have to basically sell my soul to do work I don't enjoy.  what's the point?  MMM put it this way in a recent post:
"I want you to spend like you are the richest person in the world, a person who has so much happiness and balance in your life that you can’t imagine anything you could buy that would make you any happier." 
This works just as well for someone making less money (but loving what they're doing) as for someone who is seeking FIRE.

[Skyhigh]

I am a chemist, working at a small college.  I mostly love what I do, love the freedom of my profession, and love helping students follow their dreams/pursue their interests/learn what they need to for their chosen profession.  I could make twice as much in industry, but then I would have to basically sell my soul to do work I don't enjoy.  what's the point?  MMM put it this way in a recent post:
"I want you to spend like you are the richest person in the world, a person who has so much happiness and balance in your life that you can’t imagine anything you could buy that would make you any happier." 
This works just as well for someone making less money (but loving what they're doing) as for someone who is seeking FIRE.

I just learned that FIRE here means Financial Imdependence - Retire Early.

My point is that for most a profession has the obligation to be able to pay for itself. If someone spends most of a decade and small fortune in college to get a degree and associated masters in order to earn a mailmans wage it does not seem to make financial sense to me nor does it seem in concert with the intent of FIRE.

I concede Perhaps others here are attracted to the concept of living a life of ones own determination. However if the goal is FIRE then the path to the largest financial return should be given considerable weight in ones decision making.

Skyhigh

[Skyhigh]

I was an English major and got an MBA in Finance and Accounting. Companies loved this combination - it showed I had both qualitative and quantitative skills. I was always put on projects that involved writing and explanation of difficult subjects. I have done a lot of public speaking and media work. When I worked full time, my pay was in the low six figures. It could have been much more had I been willing to work the crazy jobs with "face time" requirements noted in other threads. Never wanted that. I once told a boss I would come in to work on Saturday only in case of global thermonuclear war.

Is it possible that after you got your English major you realized that it was not worth all that much to the job market so you returned to school to get the more practical and employable MBA and accounting masters? It is a trajectory I commonly see.

Skyhigh

[deborah]

This brings up the whole issue of, what's the point of a career?  If it is to spend time doing what you love and getting paid for it, who cares if you have a low pay?  If you love what you do and are willing to live within those constraints, more power to you.  In a way, then you don't need to retire, ever, because you love what you do.

On the other hand, if you are brilliant at something that pays well but hate it, work as little as possible for as short of a duration as possible, so you can maximize your happiness.

Maybe but within the context of what it means to be a Mustachian I believe it means to be working towards freedom from wage earning employment regardless of its fun factor.

Skyhigh

I find OPs attitude quite strange. I am among the many who would have put "pilot" onto the list of training that is going to earn a lot of money and is not frivolous. Yet OPs experiences indicate that this training was frivolous and didn't earn her a lot of money.

There have been a lot of studies, and yes, training in specialist things like ceramics, fashion design... tend not to be financially worth while for the majority of the students. However, those who undertake generalist thinking training, like a science or arts degree, do tend to be better off. Unfortunately, those who are the best off tend to take specialist training as well, and doctors, lawyers, pilots... are amongst these. So the problem is whether to take specialist or generalist training, and, if so, what is the best?

With job niches lasting fewer years, and probably not a lifetime, maybe a generalist degree is the least frivolous education possible.

[EricL]

There are careers that are more valued by society.  There are careers that pay more.  Yes, often the two are not one and the same.  But no career that puts food on a family's table and a roof over their heads can truly be called "frivolous".

[Skyhigh]

This brings up the whole issue of, what's the point of a career?  If it is to spend time doing what you love and getting paid for it, who cares if you have a low pay?  If you love what you do and are willing to live within those constraints, more power to you.  In a way, then you don't need to retire, ever, because you love what you do.

On the other hand, if you are brilliant at something that pays well but hate it, work as little as possible for as short of a duration as possible, so you can maximize your happiness.

Maybe but within the context of what it means to be a Mustachian I believe it means to be working towards freedom from wage earning employment regardless of its fun factor.

Skyhigh

I find OPs attitude quite strange. I am among the many who would have put "pilot" onto the list of training that is going to earn a lot of money and is not frivolous. Yet OPs experiences indicate that this training was frivolous and didn't earn her a lot of money.

There have been a lot of studies, and yes, training in specialist things like ceramics, fashion design... tend not to be financially worth while for the majority of the students. However, those who undertake generalist thinking training, like a science or arts degree, do tend to be better off. Unfortunately, those who are the best off tend to take specialist training as well, and doctors, lawyers, pilots... are amongst these. So the problem is whether to take specialist or generalist training, and, if so, what is the best?

With job niches lasting fewer years, and probably not a lifetime, maybe a generalist degree is the least frivolous education possible.

America is experiencing a devaluation of many professions. Highly trained specialists are becoming prisoners of their own educations. As such they are loosing their  negotiation positioning with employers. Airlines learned in the early 1990's that pilots will complain a lot but when their wages are cut in half and see their benefits disprove before their eyes they remain on the job in spite of the offense because they have few alternatives. What good is a pilot who is type rated in a Boeing 757 to a department store or other business?  Due to the seniority system if a pilot chooses to abandon one company for another they have to start at the bottom as if they were a new trainee. Better to take the pay cut.

My own father was an aerospace engineer who was highly trained in the space program. When the program ended he took a job as a medical machine repairman because there were no jobs anywhere at the time for his education, experience, and training. We have a few doctors on this forum who declared that they are massively in debt due to their educations. One guy mentioned the unbelievable figure of a million dollars in school debt to become a doctor. (I hope he was exaggerating. ) Under those circumstances there is great pressure to remain in ones education field despite the hardships and diminishing financial return. There is much more on the line to those who makes such an investment besides employment. They have a huge investment to live up to and that gives the advantage to the employers.

We have an over bloated and top heavy workforce due to an over educated population who were able to quickly become deep in debt for some careers that don't even make sense to anyone. I met a recent graduate the other day who holds a degree in Horse Race Track Management. I can report that they were not working in that profession at all and do not expect to be. My position is that if one desires to become FIRE then the first step is to choose a realistic profession that will provide a return that not only is worthy of the investment but can provide a considerable financial surplus in order to overcome student debt and to amass enough financial momentum to be able to accomplish those goals.

More education = More Debt; however does not necessarily insure more $. More often under the current situation in our nation education does not help unless it is specific in nature and involved a work ethic.   Yes it does cut across the grain of what we have all been lead to believe.

Postal workers in my town commonly earn $72,000/year plus get a full ride retirement. All it takes to get that job is a civil service test and an opportunity. People with masters degrees, and considerable school debt that follows for decades, work in the bank for $30,000/year and no retirement at all.

Skyhigh

[beltim]

A friend of mine has parents who own a very successful international business.  He got his degree in Philosophy.  I'm pretty sure he'll be a success.  The average person with a Philosophy degree without those kinds of connections, though, is going to end up working in a coffee shop.  Frivolous degrees are for people with trust funds.  The rest of us need to get real degrees.  I wish I had known that before I went to college.

I don't know what you have against philosophy majors, but you're now repeating lies after being shown hard data that you're wrong.  Again, philosophy majors have higher mid-career earnings than "real" degrees like accounting, nursing, and business administration:
http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/majors-that-pay-you-back

[beltim]

This brings up the whole issue of, what's the point of a career?  If it is to spend time doing what you love and getting paid for it, who cares if you have a low pay?  If you love what you do and are willing to live within those constraints, more power to you.  In a way, then you don't need to retire, ever, because you love what you do.

On the other hand, if you are brilliant at something that pays well but hate it, work as little as possible for as short of a duration as possible, so you can maximize your happiness.

Maybe but within the context of what it means to be a Mustachian I believe it means to be working towards freedom from wage earning employment regardless of its fun factor.

Skyhigh

I find OPs attitude quite strange. I am among the many who would have put "pilot" onto the list of training that is going to earn a lot of money and is not frivolous. Yet OPs experiences indicate that this training was frivolous and didn't earn her a lot of money.

There have been a lot of studies, and yes, training in specialist things like ceramics, fashion design... tend not to be financially worth while for the majority of the students. However, those who undertake generalist thinking training, like a science or arts degree, do tend to be better off. Unfortunately, those who are the best off tend to take specialist training as well, and doctors, lawyers, pilots... are amongst these. So the problem is whether to take specialist or generalist training, and, if so, what is the best?

With job niches lasting fewer years, and probably not a lifetime, maybe a generalist degree is the least frivolous education possible.

America is experiencing a devaluation of many professions. Highly trained specialists are becoming prisoners of their own educations. As such they are loosing their  negotiation positioning with employers. Airlines learned in the early 1990's that pilots will complain a lot but when their wages are cut in half and see their benefits disprove before their eyes they remain on the job in spite of the offense because they have few alternatives. What good is a pilot who is type rated in a Boeing 757 to a department store or other business?  Due to the seniority system if a pilot chooses to abandon one company for another they have to start at the bottom as if they were a new trainee. Better to take the pay cut.

My own father was an aerospace engineer who was highly trained in the space program. When the program ended he took a job as a medical machine repairman because there were no jobs anywhere at the time for his education, experience, and training. We have a few doctors on this forum who declared that they are massively in debt due to their educations. One guy mentioned the unbelievable figure of a million dollars in school debt to become a doctor. (I hope he was exaggerating. ) Under those circumstances there is great pressure to remain in ones education field despite the hardships and diminishing financial return. There is much more on the line to those who makes such an investment besides employment. They have a huge investment to live up to and that give the advantage to the employers.

We have an over bloated and top heavy workforce due to an over educated population who are able to quickly become deep in debt for some careers that don't even make sense to anyone. I met a recent graduate the other day who holds a degree in Horse Race Track Management. I can tell you that they were not working in that profession at all. My position is that if one desires to become FIRE then the first step is to choose a realistic profession that will provide a return that not only is worthy of the investment but can provide a considerable financial surplus in order to overcome student debt and to amass enough financial momentum to be able to accomplish those goals.

More education = More Debt; however does not necessarily insure more $. More often under the current situation in our nation education does not help unless it is specific in nature and involved a work ethic.   Yes it does cut across the grain of what we have all been lead to believe.

Postal workers in my town commonly earn $72,000/year plus get a full ride retirement. All it takes to get that job is a civil service test and an opportunity. People with masters degrees, and considerable school debt that follows for decades, work in the bank for $30,000/year and no retirement at all.

Skyhigh

Your examples are all indications that degrees should be more general, not less.  If you view college as vocational training, then all you'll get out of it is a limited amount of vocational training (with a few exceptions, colleges don't really do vocational training).  If, on the other hand, you learn how to think critically, how to write, how to communicate, and how to analyze, those are skills that will serve you in a huge variety of careers, and in life outside your career.

Your example of postal workers is interesting considering that the average wage of postal workers is considerably less than your example: http://work.chron.com/average-pay-postal-worker-2050.html  Regardless, it's a particular data point contained within the data set that shows that college graduates earn a median wage 78% higher than those without bachelors degrees: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=data&state=0&submeasure=368

[Skyhigh]

There are careers that are more valued by society.  There are careers that pay more.  Yes, often the two are not one and the same.  But no career that puts food on a family's table and a roof over their heads can truly be called "frivolous".

No career can be called frivolous that pays the bills, however if one wishes to become FIRE then considerable surplus income is required. To what end does it serve someone to invest most of a decade and $300,000 to become a regional airline pilot who earns $30,000/year?   That is frivolous and futile.

Skyhigh

[Skyhigh]

This brings up the whole issue of, what's the point of a career?  If it is to spend time doing what you love and getting paid for it, who cares if you have a low pay?  If you love what you do and are willing to live within those constraints, more power to you.  In a way, then you don't need to retire, ever, because you love what you do.

On the other hand, if you are brilliant at something that pays well but hate it, work as little as possible for as short of a duration as possible, so you can maximize your happiness.

Maybe but within the context of what it means to be a Mustachian I believe it means to be working towards freedom from wage earning employment regardless of its fun factor.

Skyhigh

I find OPs attitude quite strange. I am among the many who would have put "pilot" onto the list of training that is going to earn a lot of money and is not frivolous. Yet OPs experiences indicate that this training was frivolous and didn't earn her a lot of money.

There have been a lot of studies, and yes, training in specialist things like ceramics, fashion design... tend not to be financially worth while for the majority of the students. However, those who undertake generalist thinking training, like a science or arts degree, do tend to be better off. Unfortunately, those who are the best off tend to take specialist training as well, and doctors, lawyers, pilots... are amongst these. So the problem is whether to take specialist or generalist training, and, if so, what is the best?

With job niches lasting fewer years, and probably not a lifetime, maybe a generalist degree is the least frivolous education possible.

America is experiencing a devaluation of many professions. Highly trained specialists are becoming prisoners of their own educations. As such they are loosing their  negotiation positioning with employers. Airlines learned in the early 1990's that pilots will complain a lot but when their wages are cut in half and see their benefits disprove before their eyes they remain on the job in spite of the offense because they have few alternatives. What good is a pilot who is type rated in a Boeing 757 to a department store or other business?  Due to the seniority system if a pilot chooses to abandon one company for another they have to start at the bottom as if they were a new trainee. Better to take the pay cut.

My own father was an aerospace engineer who was highly trained in the space program. When the program ended he took a job as a medical machine repairman because there were no jobs anywhere at the time for his education, experience, and training. We have a few doctors on this forum who declared that they are massively in debt due to their educations. One guy mentioned the unbelievable figure of a million dollars in school debt to become a doctor. (I hope he was exaggerating. ) Under those circumstances there is great pressure to remain in ones education field despite the hardships and diminishing financial return. There is much more on the line to those who makes such an investment besides employment. They have a huge investment to live up to and that give the advantage to the employers.

We have an over bloated and top heavy workforce due to an over educated population who are able to quickly become deep in debt for some careers that don't even make sense to anyone. I met a recent graduate the other day who holds a degree in Horse Race Track Management. I can tell you that they were not working in that profession at all. My position is that if one desires to become FIRE then the first step is to choose a realistic profession that will provide a return that not only is worthy of the investment but can provide a considerable financial surplus in order to overcome student debt and to amass enough financial momentum to be able to accomplish those goals.

More education = More Debt; however does not necessarily insure more $. More often under the current situation in our nation education does not help unless it is specific in nature and involved a work ethic.   Yes it does cut across the grain of what we have all been lead to believe.

Postal workers in my town commonly earn $72,000/year plus get a full ride retirement. All it takes to get that job is a civil service test and an opportunity. People with masters degrees, and considerable school debt that follows for decades, work in the bank for $30,000/year and no retirement at all.

Skyhigh

Your examples are all indications that degrees should be more general, not less.  If you view college as vocational training, then all you'll get out of it is a limited amount of vocational training (with a few exceptions, colleges don't really do vocational training).  If, on the other hand, you learn how to think critically, how to write, how to communicate, and how to analyze, those are skills that will serve you in a huge variety of careers, and in life outside your career.

Your example of postal workers is interesting considering that the average wage of postal workers is considerably less than your example: http://work.chron.com/average-pay-postal-worker-2050.html  Regardless, it's a particular data point contained within the data set that shows that college graduates earn a median wage 78% higher than those without bachelors degrees: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=data&state=0&submeasure=368

Maybe college graduates earn more because they learn critical thinking skills? Possibly they earn more because they come from families that provide better examples for success? Possibly they are those of us who are better prepared, more determined, and with habit patterns to succeed regardless of their education? However it seems to me that with the cost of college skyrocketing it is only a matter of time before the debt load overcomes the financial advantage (If there even is one anymore). My point however is that if someone wishes to not only do better than a common high school graduate and dream of retiring early dropping $150,000 on an English literature degree is not the best idea.

Starting on the path to FIRE in debt with an ill performing career is not a good idea if one can avoid it.

Sklyhigh

[Raay]

Science and engineering jobs are about screwing with Mother Nature. Humanities are about screwing with other people's minds. You get can get rich off both, provided that your screwing is actually any good. That said, when choosing with financial goal in mind, you should take into account your own preferences and especially the amount of competition.

[iwasjustwondering]

In my opinion, the main idea of MMM is that you seek frugality because you need it in order to live the life you want to live, the life you were meant to live.  My uber-successful writer acquaintance would not have been able to feed his feverish desire to write all day and night if he had been an acquisitive person.  He freed himself from material desires, which allowed him to write and make crap money for a few years.  MMM is not about finding an awful, well-paying job just so you can bring in tons of cash every year, IMO.  Not at all.

[ChrisLansing]

If you average the salaries of all college degree holders the Chemical engineers are bringing the average up.   And those who major in "frivolous" subjects will often still find a half way decent paying job, unrelated to their major (meaning they needn't have gone to college).   

If you average the earnings of people who didn't go to a 4 year degree program, you have plumbers who make more than most college grads, and you have high school dropouts who are dragging the average down. 

So it's not surprising that "those who go to college" make more than "those who don't".     

Both "those who did" and "those who didn't" are extremely broad, and largely useless, groupings that don't give us specific information on career prospects. 

Additionally, the philosophy major may make more money than most of "those who didn't" but only because he went to law school (out of sheer desperation - and after all, he's now too good to work with his hands) and one can go to law school with any undergraduate degree (and occasionally w/o an undergrad degree)    So we can't really say the philosophy degree has any (earning power) value.   

What's needed is a bit more nuance. 

There are good paying careers, that require a combination of working with your hands (Oh, perish the thought) and problem solving ability  - HVAC repair is a good example.    I bet the median pay for HVAC repair is higher than the median for philosophy majors who did not go to law school, or those who majored in history (and did not go on to law school or get a teaching certificate).   

We can go on and on, but the world or work is quite complex, and to say one will make more money going to college may or may not be true.        It depends on the major, but also on what alternatives are being compared.     

[franklin w. dixon]

A friend of mine has parents who own a very successful international business.  He got his degree in Philosophy.  I'm pretty sure he'll be a success.  The average person with a Philosophy degree without those kinds of connections, though, is going to end up working in a coffee shop.  Frivolous degrees are for people with trust funds.  The rest of us need to get real degrees.  I wish I had known that before I went to college.

I don't know what you have against philosophy majors, but you're now repeating lies after being shown hard data that you're wrong.  Again, philosophy majors have higher mid-career earnings than "real" degrees like accounting, nursing, and business administration:
http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2014/majors-that-pay-you-back

Really weird how so many engineers struggle with "actual data," preferring instead to recline smugly in the land of make-believe.

[greaper007]

SkyHigh, what happened?   Did you get kicked off of the Airline Pilot Central forums?    He's been annoying everyone over there for years with this rhetoric.   

I'm a former regional captain, my dad's a major captain.    Yes, my best year was $40,000.   My dad will retire this year at about $300,000 plus a few million dollars in stock options.      It's a really crazy career and only a few people make it to the big time, like most high paying careers.  (See acting, music, even medicine)

But, I knew that was the pay when I signed up and I was going to make a go for the brass ring.   In fact, I chose one of the lowest paying airlines I could, simply so I'd be able to upgrade from first officer to captain quickly (1.5 years for me, I have friends at higher paying regionals that waited 6 years).   The only time that matters in aviation is left seat time, and for a good job you need at least 1500 hours of jet pilot in command time.    You never know when the majors and legacy carriers will start to hire so you want to have all the per-requisites ready when they decide to open their books.

I quit my job because the flying didn't really interest me anymore and after my first child was born I wanted to be home more.   I did have some a hard time adjusting from having a cool job to being a stay at home dad, mostly because of engrained, societal male stereotypes.    Once I got over that bs, everything was fine.

Skyhigh, it sounds like you have a business that makes money without very much input now.    Why not go back to aviation if you really love it?    You would be hired in a half a second at 6 different regionals with your time.    The money wouldn't really matter at this point.   Hell, you could just fly vfr charters for fun.     If you love to fly, the airplane you're flying shouldn't really matter.   No, you might not be an international captain on the whale but you could still get paid to fly airplanes.    I had a guy in my class who was in his early 50s.    He made a shitload of money on Wall Street and always wanted to be a pilot.   Stop complaining and start doing something.    There are no mistakes in life, just readjustments.