Author Topic: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE  (Read 2875 times)

mtnrider

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FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« on: September 28, 2022, 07:15:26 AM »

I'm certainly not the only one to have experienced this.  I've hit the FI number already.  I have plans for what I want to do.  I'm not looking for a different job while I run out the clock on this one.

Suddenly tempting jobs are popping up on my radar.  Hiring managers from my network have reached out to me with very interesting jobs.  These are multiples of my current compensation.

I turned them down.  But I have the immediate feelings of FOMO - I'd love to work with these new technologies!  And greed - I don't want the money per se, but it would be cool to have bragging rights.  And pride - I want to be able to say that I brought this new tech to life.

I have to dig deep for the discipline to stay the course.  I started down this path so I could pursue personal goals.  Those still rank higher than pride, greed, and FOMO.
 

ChpBstrd

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2022, 07:33:44 AM »
Maybe give those jobs a look. If you set a goal to raise $50k for a charity in the next 12 months, which one would it be? Research on childhood cancers? Helping refugees fleeing from genocide? Protecting people's rights?

Contributing back to society would be a great excuse reason to work with new tech, have a fancy job title, etc.

Granted, these high-paying jobs are probably always-on, 70-hour-week hellscapes of meetings and unrealistic stakeholders. As a FIRE person you can dip a toe into anything you want and change your plans on a whim.

mtnrider

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2022, 08:33:12 AM »
Maybe give those jobs a look. If you set a goal to raise $50k for a charity in the next 12 months, which one would it be? Research on childhood cancers? Helping refugees fleeing from genocide? Protecting people's rights?

Contributing back to society would be a great excuse reason to work with new tech, have a fancy job title, etc.

Granted, these high-paying jobs are probably always-on, 70-hour-week hellscapes of meetings and unrealistic stakeholders. As a FIRE person you can dip a toe into anything you want and change your plans on a whim.

Yes, on both points. 

I had thought about working longer if only to be able to make more charitable contributions.  The Effective Altruism movement would say that this is the best use of my time.  But... I kinda rejected the idea.  I feel a little selfish, but I want to cool the engines.

And yes, this would be ~10hrs/day, 6 days a week for wide swaths of time.  It's OK if you love it.  And point taken that I might! :)  But maybe later.

Turtle

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2022, 08:52:55 AM »
I can really relate to your post.  I'm lean FI at the moment, but not quite ready to pull the plug.  My current job is Coast FIRE - not the best match for my skills but not the worst either.  It's also relatively low stress and no extra hours most of the time.

Headhunters are contacting me on LinkedIn all the time, and a former coworker reached out recently as well with a potential offer.  The later is more tempting than the former, due to the fact that I'd be working with people that I know and respect.  The former coworker was talking about how awesome it was that the company he's at now still has a pension and only 5 years to vest.  I didn't have the heart to tell him that I'm definitely planning to be retired before then.

Sibley

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2022, 08:55:13 AM »
FI means you can choose what you do with your time. If you choose to work, that's valid. If you choose to be a bum on the couch, that's valid. So, what do you want to do? Figure it out, own your choice, and do it.

mistymoney

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2022, 09:39:56 AM »
I'm struggling with the greed and pride piece of this at the moment.

I have had career struggles in the past with more than one company capitalizing on my talents and contributions without recognition or remuneration. I now have a title that I'm pretty stoked about. The compensation could be greater, but its more than I ever envisioned earning about 10 years ago - after being beaten down so! although maybe I'm not properly accounting for inflation! - so I have finally arrived as it were, lol! ;P

so greed! If I just keep this up for 5 years I could be really well off - forever! cough cough if the markets recover cough cough

pride - I finally made it, finally #winning. basking in the ambiance for a bit longer is tempting.

luckily that pride boost kept me from quitting before the downturn..


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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2022, 09:54:10 AM »
You can always take on a compelling project later, if that gets you over the hump now. The more I enjoy my freedom, the less I care about any of that other stuff.

Fru-Gal

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2022, 10:17:54 AM »
The greed and pride are real. I had no FOMO. Went through a major time-wasting exercise to be rehired by my company a few months after FIRE. But we flew too close to close to the sun and the final compensation agreed on was rejected by the Board of Directors. I was so incredibly happy it was like I had fired a second time.

I can always go back to work in a couple of years if my money doesn’t last. Or put the side hustles to use.

So far I would say the months of decompression thing is real because I am finally opening up enough space in my brain to truly focus on some life-changing stuff. As many say I feel like I don’t have enough time in the day to get it all done.

mtnrider

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2022, 04:27:30 PM »
All good points.  This resonated:

...
So far I would say the months of decompression thing is real because I am finally opening up enough space in my brain to truly focus on some life-changing stuff.
...

As other said, I can go back later.  But I intend to knock a thing or two off the bucket list, and also to have time just to think.

ScreamingHeadGuy

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2022, 05:14:44 AM »
Fuck pride.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruhFmBrl4GM

The day you FIRE you may feel a slight sting.  That’s pride fucking with you.  Fuck pride!  Pride only hurts, it never helps.  You fight through that shit.  ‘Cause a year from now, when you’re kicking it wherever the heck you want to be, you’re going to say to yourself “ScreamingHeadGuy was right.”


Seriously - you think giving up some of your precious lifetime just to have an excuse to brag about a (meaningless to your lifestyle) number is a worthwhile exchange?

Metalcat

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2022, 07:39:53 AM »
Lol, yeah, change is hard.

That said, you can do whatever you want. You can take on a new job or project and a few weeks later decide you don't actually like it and move on.

I helped broker a massive deal before and while I was retiring. It took nearly 2 years and in the end, I was invited on to be a partner. This project was the BIGGEST, most prestigious thing I had ever touched, and I had had my hands in some pretty prestigious pies. The projected value of the deal was...well, suffice to say, I actually struggled to figure out what I would do with that much money.

In just over a month my partnership that was built over two very intense, intimate years was in ruins and I was signing an NDA and GTFO-ing the hell out of there.

In a very, very real way, I totally sabotaged the deal. Well, that's one interpretation. Another is that I wasn't willing to compromise on what I knew was right, and I knew that doing so could fuck me sideways. I had an anniversary trip planned for the 5th week, and I knew that if I took it, the ground would crumble underneath me.

I had made AMAZING progress in just a few weeks and I absolutely could have pulled it off had my partner been...different. But I had to decide: was I going to live a life where I cancelled anniversary trips for the sake of catering to people I can't count on?

I had cancelled many, many trips in service of my career up to that point, my DH never even got hyped for any trip we booked because he just expected them to be cancelled. When I retired, I didn't want to be that kind of professional anymore. I could make the partnership work or I could stick to my guns and live the life I actually wanted. What's the point of gobs of money when you can't even buy the life you want??

I went away for a week to a quiet cottage in the mountains and it cost me 8 figures and caused me ENORMOUS professional humiliation.

...and it was totally worth it ;)

The question isn't whether or not you should take a new and exciting and challenging job. The question is whether or not your trust your own motives and driving values?

Do the rewards of the job actually match your core needs?

It doesn't sound like you know.

So what will it take for you to get to know yourself well enough to be able to trust that you know what truly matters to you and that you intuitively know what you need to do to achieve it?

What steps do you need to establish that level of trust in your own judgement?

mtnrider

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2022, 07:56:41 AM »
Fuck pride.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruhFmBrl4GM

The day you FIRE you may feel a slight sting.  That’s pride fucking with you.  Fuck pride!  Pride only hurts, it never helps.  You fight through that shit.  ‘Cause a year from now, when you’re kicking it wherever the heck you want to be, you’re going to say to yourself “ScreamingHeadGuy was right.”


Seriously - you think giving up some of your precious lifetime just to have an excuse to brag about a (meaningless to your lifestyle) number is a worthwhile exchange?

LOL.  I didn't think I'd take advice from a Tarantino movie, but it's not bad advice.

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And maybe we're neighbors?  (I'm not in the frozen tundra anymore, sadly)

mtnrider

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2022, 08:17:14 AM »
These are good questions.  I appreciate them!

The question isn't whether or not you should take a new and exciting and challenging job. The question is whether or not your trust your own motives and driving values?

Yes, and... I see the issue as recognizing a local maxima.  It's easy to see, it's in front of you and what you're familiar with.  Not that you don't know about the global maxima, but it's not in your face.

Quote
Do the rewards of the job actually match your core needs?

It doesn't sound like you know.

They don't.  At least not the needs I have now.

Quote
So what will it take for you to get to know yourself well enough to be able to trust that you know what truly matters to you and that you intuitively know what you need to do to achieve it?

What steps do you need to establish that level of trust in your own judgement?

I'd put it a different way:  There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz40vwcTGFo

I realized today that when I left my blue collar job to go to college, I had similar feelings.  I was walking away from what seemed like a lucrative "career".  My older colleagues were telling me that "the age of the programmer is over" and that I should look carefully at the two years I had put in, and how far I had moved up.  They said, "it would be stupid to throw that away."  And I was prideful of my blue collar skills (perhaps justifiably, I donno).  And that extra money from hanging on would let me get rid of my junker car and buy something nicer.

It took a lot of discipline (and some courage and confidence) to make that jump.

No question that I'll make the jump this time too.  This time I get to keep my now high-tech skills (that I am still prideful about!) with me, so the jump has a softer landing.  But I was still surprised that those emotions resurfaced!

Metalcat

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2022, 08:35:05 AM »
These are good questions.  I appreciate them!

The question isn't whether or not you should take a new and exciting and challenging job. The question is whether or not your trust your own motives and driving values?

Yes, and... I see the issue as recognizing a local maxima.  It's easy to see, it's in front of you and what you're familiar with.  Not that you don't know about the global maxima, but it's not in your face.

Quote
Do the rewards of the job actually match your core needs?

It doesn't sound like you know.

They don't.  At least not the needs I have now.

Quote
So what will it take for you to get to know yourself well enough to be able to trust that you know what truly matters to you and that you intuitively know what you need to do to achieve it?

What steps do you need to establish that level of trust in your own judgement?

I'd put it a different way:  There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz40vwcTGFo

I realized today that when I left my blue collar job to go to college, I had similar feelings.  I was walking away from what seemed like a lucrative "career".  My older colleagues were telling me that "the age of the programmer is over" and that I should look carefully at the two years I had put in, and how far I had moved up.  They said, "it would be stupid to throw that away."  And I was prideful of my blue collar skills (perhaps justifiably, I donno).  And that extra money from hanging on would let me get rid of my junker car and buy something nicer.

It took a lot of discipline (and some courage and confidence) to make that jump.

No question that I'll make the jump this time too.  This time I get to keep my now high-tech skills (that I am still prideful about!) with me, so the jump has a softer landing.  But I was still surprised that those emotions resurfaced!

Lol, never underestimate the human mind's resistance to change.

Your brain will ALWAYS over value the benefits of keeping things the same and dramatically over estimate the risks of change, even if the present is a shit hole.

Spend literally any time talking to people in horribly toxic situations and you will see this effect in technicolor.

The key is to not give too much credence to those reasons and that fear. I wrote recently about the process of learning not to interpret fear in decisions as a signal that there's actually something wrong with the decision being made.

Whenever faced with a change, you have to kind of work with a default handicap for the option of continuing to do what you are familiar with. You have to knock it down several points in terms of appeal.

So say you have two choices that are neck and neck. Knock several points off of the more familiar option and choose the change.

And when the familiar option feels like it has a slight advantage, err on the side of caution and choose the change anyway.

Rather ironically, the familiar option is almost universally the riskier option.

mistymoney

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2022, 10:41:07 AM »
Fuck pride.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruhFmBrl4GM

The day you FIRE you may feel a slight sting.  That’s pride fucking with you.  Fuck pride!  Pride only hurts, it never helps.  You fight through that shit.  ‘Cause a year from now, when you’re kicking it wherever the heck you want to be, you’re going to say to yourself “ScreamingHeadGuy was right.”


Seriously - you think giving up some of your precious lifetime just to have an excuse to brag about a (meaningless to your lifestyle) number is a worthwhile exchange?

oh - this is a different take than what I took from the OP. To me, the pride is in my profession - my reputation and place within that profession, and my accomplishments and contributions to the profession.

I agree pride for a certain number of $$ is meaningless. But even in the clip you provided, the pride for bruce's character is not for the money, so almost disproving your position here!

bryan995

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2022, 04:46:57 AM »
Sounds like you work in tech?

My humble anti-MMM opinion - Ride that gravy train until it falls off the rails!

How (buffered) is your FIRE number? Is there a chance that you would have to return to work? Or are you truly FIRE at the lifestyle level you want? Working 1 extra year now could be the same as 3-5 years of part time work later. That’s seems horribly inefficient. Make the switch, earn more, save more and enjoy learning new things (ps why didn’t you switch sooner if you are finding massive comp increases elsewhere!)

The trick is to job hop every 1-3 years to force the income multiplier. Then keep doing so until either you or the market totally derails.

For most it is the Peter principle that forces them out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Metalcat

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2022, 08:53:07 AM »
Sounds like you work in tech?

My humble anti-MMM opinion - Ride that gravy train until it falls off the rails!

How (buffered) is your FIRE number? Is there a chance that you would have to return to work? Or are you truly FIRE at the lifestyle level you want? Working 1 extra year now could be the same as 3-5 years of part time work later. That’s seems horribly inefficient. Make the switch, earn more, save more and enjoy learning new things (ps why didn’t you switch sooner if you are finding massive comp increases elsewhere!)

The trick is to job hop every 1-3 years to force the income multiplier. Then keep doing so until either you or the market totally derails.

For most it is the Peter principle that forces them out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

I wouldn't call that an anti-MMM opinion at all.

Most of us are pointing out that if OP feels financially secure enough, they can do whatever the hell they want to.

If working more sounds fun and worth doing for the extra money, then that's awesome. They can always just walk away if it isn't awesome. And you're right, continuing on the career momentum is the most obvious path to more money.

However, working 5 years part time is not necessarily less "efficient" than working 1 year full time.

For a lot of people, working part time requires A LOT less effort than working full time. So the wear and tear on their physical and mental health can be far more substantial. I've career coached a lot of people who can barely keep their heads above water full time but absolutely love their jobs when dropping to half time.

On top of that, not everyone works part time in the same role. Some people take up fun paying hobbies that they would do anyway.

And lastly, if I generate part time income for 5 years, that's 5 years of market gains on my 'stache while your bills get paid in part or in whole by your new, fun hobby.

So more years of full time career *can* be the most efficient and best option, but they can also be an inefficient option, depending on the details of your alternatives.

For sure, for some folks, full tilt, full time OMY+ is the best option they can possibly choose.

mtnrider

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2022, 09:18:18 AM »
oh - this is a different take than what I took from the OP. To me, the pride is in my profession - my reputation and place within that profession, and my accomplishments and contributions to the profession.

I agree pride for a certain number of $$ is meaningless. But even in the clip you provided, the pride for bruce's character is not for the money, so almost disproving your position here!

Exactly.  I'm proud of what I do, who I've helped, and what I've built.

And it's not like I plan to go to the beach.  Far from it, on my bucket lists is to build some things on my own, in a way that's not constrained by a megacorp.

mtnrider

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2022, 09:27:05 AM »
Sounds like you work in tech?

My humble anti-MMM opinion - Ride that gravy train until it falls off the rails!

How (buffered) is your FIRE number? Is there a chance that you would have to return to work? Or are you truly FIRE at the lifestyle level you want? Working 1 extra year now could be the same as 3-5 years of part time work later. That’s seems horribly inefficient. Make the switch, earn more, save more and enjoy learning new things (ps why didn’t you switch sooner if you are finding massive comp increases elsewhere!)

The trick is to job hop every 1-3 years to force the income multiplier. Then keep doing so until either you or the market totally derails.

For most it is the Peter principle that forces them out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

I wouldn't call that an anti-MMM opinion at all.

Most of us are pointing out that if OP feels financially secure enough, they can do whatever the hell they want to.

If working more sounds fun and worth doing for the extra money, then that's awesome. They can always just walk away if it isn't awesome. And you're right, continuing on the career momentum is the most obvious path to more money.

However, working 5 years part time is not necessarily less "efficient" than working 1 year full time.

For a lot of people, working part time requires A LOT less effort than working full time. So the wear and tear on their physical and mental health can be far more substantial. I've career coached a lot of people who can barely keep their heads above water full time but absolutely love their jobs when dropping to half time.

On top of that, not everyone works part time in the same role. Some people take up fun paying hobbies that they would do anyway.

And lastly, if I generate part time income for 5 years, that's 5 years of market gains on my 'stache while your bills get paid in part or in whole by your new, fun hobby.

So more years of full time career *can* be the most efficient and best option, but they can also be an inefficient option, depending on the details of your alternatives.

For sure, for some folks, full tilt, full time OMY+ is the best option they can possibly choose.

I'm in tech, yeah.  And yeah, the "greed" emotion was primarily thinking about the extra buffer I'd have, for just an extra year of work.  So not really greed, but something more related to OMY (aka fear of the unknown?).

I'm at 2x my "number."  Well, with the recent market fall, it's probably like 1.8x now.  But still...  I'm also going to stay active coding, so I'm not overly worried about finding a job should I need one later.  So despite that reflexive OMY/greed feeling, analytically, I don't need the cash.

And yeah, I can do what I want.  Heck, it's FIRE after all. :)


Metalcat

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2022, 09:58:16 AM »
Sounds like you work in tech?

My humble anti-MMM opinion - Ride that gravy train until it falls off the rails!

How (buffered) is your FIRE number? Is there a chance that you would have to return to work? Or are you truly FIRE at the lifestyle level you want? Working 1 extra year now could be the same as 3-5 years of part time work later. That’s seems horribly inefficient. Make the switch, earn more, save more and enjoy learning new things (ps why didn’t you switch sooner if you are finding massive comp increases elsewhere!)

The trick is to job hop every 1-3 years to force the income multiplier. Then keep doing so until either you or the market totally derails.

For most it is the Peter principle that forces them out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

I wouldn't call that an anti-MMM opinion at all.

Most of us are pointing out that if OP feels financially secure enough, they can do whatever the hell they want to.

If working more sounds fun and worth doing for the extra money, then that's awesome. They can always just walk away if it isn't awesome. And you're right, continuing on the career momentum is the most obvious path to more money.

However, working 5 years part time is not necessarily less "efficient" than working 1 year full time.

For a lot of people, working part time requires A LOT less effort than working full time. So the wear and tear on their physical and mental health can be far more substantial. I've career coached a lot of people who can barely keep their heads above water full time but absolutely love their jobs when dropping to half time.

On top of that, not everyone works part time in the same role. Some people take up fun paying hobbies that they would do anyway.

And lastly, if I generate part time income for 5 years, that's 5 years of market gains on my 'stache while your bills get paid in part or in whole by your new, fun hobby.

So more years of full time career *can* be the most efficient and best option, but they can also be an inefficient option, depending on the details of your alternatives.

For sure, for some folks, full tilt, full time OMY+ is the best option they can possibly choose.

I'm in tech, yeah.  And yeah, the "greed" emotion was primarily thinking about the extra buffer I'd have, for just an extra year of work.  So not really greed, but something more related to OMY (aka fear of the unknown?).

I'm at 2x my "number."  Well, with the recent market fall, it's probably like 1.8x now.  But still...  I'm also going to stay active coding, so I'm not overly worried about finding a job should I need one later.  So despite that reflexive OMY/greed feeling, analytically, I don't need the cash.

And yeah, I can do what I want.  Heck, it's FIRE after all. :)

Perhaps relabel "greed" as "fear."

It doesn't sound like you actually want any more from your money than to buy a sense of safety.

If you were like "fuck yeah! I can work a few extra years and afford to own an airplane and get my pilots license, and fly around for $500 burgers, why the fuck not*"

That might be construed as greedy.

*Literally what I decided to do when I was engaging in the project that would have made me too rich. Then it failed miserably and I withdrew from pilot school.

bryan995

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2022, 09:19:06 PM »
Sounds like you work in tech?

My humble anti-MMM opinion - Ride that gravy train until it falls off the rails!

How (buffered) is your FIRE number? Is there a chance that you would have to return to work? Or are you truly FIRE at the lifestyle level you want? Working 1 extra year now could be the same as 3-5 years of part time work later. That’s seems horribly inefficient. Make the switch, earn more, save more and enjoy learning new things (ps why didn’t you switch sooner if you are finding massive comp increases elsewhere!)

The trick is to job hop every 1-3 years to force the income multiplier. Then keep doing so until either you or the market totally derails.

For most it is the Peter principle that forces them out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

I wouldn't call that an anti-MMM opinion at all.

Most of us are pointing out that if OP feels financially secure enough, they can do whatever the hell they want to.

If working more sounds fun and worth doing for the extra money, then that's awesome. They can always just walk away if it isn't awesome. And you're right, continuing on the career momentum is the most obvious path to more money.

However, working 5 years part time is not necessarily less "efficient" than working 1 year full time.

For a lot of people, working part time requires A LOT less effort than working full time. So the wear and tear on their physical and mental health can be far more substantial. I've career coached a lot of people who can barely keep their heads above water full time but absolutely love their jobs when dropping to half time.

On top of that, not everyone works part time in the same role. Some people take up fun paying hobbies that they would do anyway.

And lastly, if I generate part time income for 5 years, that's 5 years of market gains on my 'stache while your bills get paid in part or in whole by your new, fun hobby.

So more years of full time career *can* be the most efficient and best option, but they can also be an inefficient option, depending on the details of your alternatives.

For sure, for some folks, full tilt, full time OMY+ is the best option they can possibly choose.

I'm in tech, yeah.  And yeah, the "greed" emotion was primarily thinking about the extra buffer I'd have, for just an extra year of work.  So not really greed, but something more related to OMY (aka fear of the unknown?).

I'm at 2x my "number."  Well, with the recent market fall, it's probably like 1.8x now.  But still...  I'm also going to stay active coding, so I'm not overly worried about finding a job should I need one later.  So despite that reflexive OMY/greed feeling, analytically, I don't need the cash.

And yeah, I can do what I want.  Heck, it's FIRE after all. :)

Perhaps relabel "greed" as "fear."

It doesn't sound like you actually want any more from your money than to buy a sense of safety.

If you were like "fuck yeah! I can work a few extra years and afford to own an airplane and get my pilots license, and fly around for $500 burgers, why the fuck not*"

That might be construed as greedy.

*Literally what I decided to do when I was engaging in the project that would have made me too rich. Then it failed miserably and I withdrew from pilot school.

For every additional year you work., how many X expenses do you add to your stash?
0.5x? 1x? 3x? 5x?

It seems borderline irresponsible / horribly inefficient if you can stash, say >2-3x expenses per every additional year of work. 
Keep that gravy train rolling ! Who knows how much longer 5-700k tech salaries can be justified :)



Metalcat

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2022, 11:30:56 PM »
Sounds like you work in tech?

My humble anti-MMM opinion - Ride that gravy train until it falls off the rails!

How (buffered) is your FIRE number? Is there a chance that you would have to return to work? Or are you truly FIRE at the lifestyle level you want? Working 1 extra year now could be the same as 3-5 years of part time work later. That’s seems horribly inefficient. Make the switch, earn more, save more and enjoy learning new things (ps why didn’t you switch sooner if you are finding massive comp increases elsewhere!)

The trick is to job hop every 1-3 years to force the income multiplier. Then keep doing so until either you or the market totally derails.

For most it is the Peter principle that forces them out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

I wouldn't call that an anti-MMM opinion at all.

Most of us are pointing out that if OP feels financially secure enough, they can do whatever the hell they want to.

If working more sounds fun and worth doing for the extra money, then that's awesome. They can always just walk away if it isn't awesome. And you're right, continuing on the career momentum is the most obvious path to more money.

However, working 5 years part time is not necessarily less "efficient" than working 1 year full time.

For a lot of people, working part time requires A LOT less effort than working full time. So the wear and tear on their physical and mental health can be far more substantial. I've career coached a lot of people who can barely keep their heads above water full time but absolutely love their jobs when dropping to half time.

On top of that, not everyone works part time in the same role. Some people take up fun paying hobbies that they would do anyway.

And lastly, if I generate part time income for 5 years, that's 5 years of market gains on my 'stache while your bills get paid in part or in whole by your new, fun hobby.

So more years of full time career *can* be the most efficient and best option, but they can also be an inefficient option, depending on the details of your alternatives.

For sure, for some folks, full tilt, full time OMY+ is the best option they can possibly choose.

I'm in tech, yeah.  And yeah, the "greed" emotion was primarily thinking about the extra buffer I'd have, for just an extra year of work.  So not really greed, but something more related to OMY (aka fear of the unknown?).

I'm at 2x my "number."  Well, with the recent market fall, it's probably like 1.8x now.  But still...  I'm also going to stay active coding, so I'm not overly worried about finding a job should I need one later.  So despite that reflexive OMY/greed feeling, analytically, I don't need the cash.

And yeah, I can do what I want.  Heck, it's FIRE after all. :)

Perhaps relabel "greed" as "fear."

It doesn't sound like you actually want any more from your money than to buy a sense of safety.

If you were like "fuck yeah! I can work a few extra years and afford to own an airplane and get my pilots license, and fly around for $500 burgers, why the fuck not*"

That might be construed as greedy.

*Literally what I decided to do when I was engaging in the project that would have made me too rich. Then it failed miserably and I withdrew from pilot school.

For every additional year you work., how many X expenses do you add to your stash?
0.5x? 1x? 3x? 5x?

It seems borderline irresponsible / horribly inefficient if you can stash, say >2-3x expenses per every additional year of work. 
Keep that gravy train rolling ! Who knows how much longer 5-700k tech salaries can be justified :)

But at what point does that argument end?

By your logic it's indefinitely "borderline irresponsible/horribly inefficient" to retire.

OP has said that they have 1.8-2X their 'number', whatever that means.

Typically here that means they've estimated their annual spend (+ a substantial buffer), and multiplied that by 25-30. OP is saying they have about double that. If they're like most people here, the probably also have a paid off house.

Basically, they already have double the amount of money they need. Which means they have an ENTIRE second 'stache that will be left alone to grow, monstrously for decades.

So in about a decade they'll have triple the money they need, and another decade or so after that, quintuple the money they need, and so on and so forth.

At what point do the added few years of expenses just dump more into the heatsink?

Besides, are you assuming that OP hasn't already worked several more years than they needed to for exactly the reasons you've stated?

Exactly how many extra years of earning large sums is someone obliged to do before it stops being irresponsible to stop?

You might be right, and I might be interpreting their financial situation wrong, they are welcome to correct me. Working a few more years may be the perfect option.

But if they have more than enough money already, then the issue comes down more and more to what the non-money benefits of the work are.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 11:53:54 PM by Malcat »

mtnrider

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2022, 11:28:13 AM »
@Malcat @bryan995


Yes - if I were to walk about the door now, I'd be at a 2% withdrawal rate, maybe 2.3% with the recent market activity.  If I continue working, including taxes, I'd increase my 'stash between 8 to 18% per year of working.  I could increase my withdrawals by around ~7%/year.  That's not nothing.  But it comes at a price.  And that 2% rate is already excellent.

I also think about this: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/.  I'll have a >50% chance of being dead in my 80s.  The death curve goes up  steeply from there.  And there are things that I want to do while I'm young enough to do them.  Having that extra cash won't help with those.

I understand Bryan's point of view.  Make hay while the sun shines!  What about charitable giving?  What would Will MacAskill say?  It almost feels irresponsible to turn my back on a good income.  But do I have a responsibility to myself to carve out the time to think deeply about software, at my own pace, of my own design? 


Metalcat

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2022, 11:50:19 AM »
@Malcat @bryan995


Yes - if I were to walk about the door now, I'd be at a 2% withdrawal rate, maybe 2.3% with the recent market activity.  If I continue working, including taxes, I'd increase my 'stash between 8 to 18% per year of working.  I could increase my withdrawals by around ~7%/year.  That's not nothing.  But it comes at a price.  And that 2% rate is already excellent.

I also think about this: https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/.  I'll have a >50% chance of being dead in my 80s.  The death curve goes up  steeply from there.  And there are things that I want to do while I'm young enough to do them.  Having that extra cash won't help with those.

I understand Bryan's point of view.  Make hay while the sun shines!  What about charitable giving?  What would Will MacAskill say?  It almost feels irresponsible to turn my back on a good income.  But do I have a responsibility to myself to carve out the time to think deeply about software, at my own pace, of my own design?

That's kind of my point. Byan's logic will hold for as long as you are able to earn that money. Do you want to work OMY indefinitely until you can't?

How many OMYs have you already done? How much is enough?

Only you can decide that for yourself.

But don't forget to factor in the impact of time on your current 'stache. As I said, if you have double what you need, then that means you basically have two 'staches. One to live off of and a backup.

Let's assume the world follows the patterns that support the 4% rule (big assumption, but it will make sense). So you have one :stache that you pull 4% from and a whole second equal size 'stache that just sits there compounding indefinitely as long as you don't spend more and the markets don't defy the 4% rule.

I don't know how old you are, but go ahead and mentally work out how much that second 'stache will grow in the background over various timelines.

Now, you didn't save this much because you have faith in the 4% rule. So you expect that you will likely have to dip into that second 'stache to some degree, either due to market forces pummeling your returns, or inflation increasing your spend, or life events increasing your spend.

Cool, that's why you saved the second 'stache. But what are the chances that you end up needing to pull a full second 4% from that second 'stache every single year?? Pretty slim.

So it's still going to keep growing, just perhaps not at the exponential rate that it you might expect if everything went abnormally smoothly.

Project forward to your senior years. How much money are you actually likely to have at that point?

Should you keep working?

You certainly have financial incentive to do so, but never forget that double what you need now can pretty rapidly explode to 5+ times what you need. Time is a HUGE heavy lifter in terms of increasing your NW when you already start out with too much.

No matter what, you are at a point that you can afford to only do the work you absolutely want to do. You were actually at that point a very long time ago.

So what do you want to do?

bryan995

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2022, 11:59:08 AM »
Perhaps it is obvious, but the above is exactly my plan.

I currently stash about 2-3x a FAT level of expenses per year.  I will OMY indefinitely until something changes dramatically.

<2% SWR of a heavily padded budget seems to be the sweet spot, and it sounds like you are there.  Lots of buffer to adjust should the world collapse, as it seems to be doing currently!

Though even at that stash level, think about retiring AFTER the peak of the income earning curve.  If you are still in the exponential phase, then its mathematically inefficient to stop early :)

Fru-Gal

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2022, 12:33:34 PM »
Quote
it’s mathematically inefficient to stop early

But that assumes that life energy also is on an exponential curve.

Metalcat

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Re: FOMO, greed, and pride with FIRE
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2022, 12:54:34 PM »
Perhaps it is obvious, but the above is exactly my plan.

I currently stash about 2-3x a FAT level of expenses per year.  I will OMY indefinitely until something changes dramatically.

<2% SWR of a heavily padded budget seems to be the sweet spot, and it sounds like you are there.  Lots of buffer to adjust should the world collapse, as it seems to be doing currently!

Though even at that stash level, think about retiring AFTER the peak of the income earning curve.  If you are still in the exponential phase, then its mathematically inefficient to stop early :)

But perhaps quality of life efficient to do so.

I have an aunt worth over 50M who refused to stop working because her salary was over 1M/yr. She was in her late 60s, cheap as fuck, so she didn't even use her money as it was, and wasn't going to leave it to her meth head kid she had already disowned.

She spent 40+ years doing a job she was never very passionate about because the money was just too good to pass up. This is someone wealthy enough that she could have retired many years ago and lived a life that most people could never dream of.

Instead her husband is dead, her kid hates her, and the rest of her family think she's deranged, including me.

I'm a BIG fan of earning money doing shit that's fun, and as a result
I too will end up dying with an absurd amount of wealth, but I am very opposed to people earning money they don't need and don't intend to use, just for the sake of having more money they don't need and don't intend to use by doing work that's holding them back from the life they actually want to live.

That's not financial freedom, that's financial prison.

What you are doing is the sweet spot for YOU, which is great. But there are A LOT of people here who OMY'd themselves into serious burnout.

Also for me, at a certain point of financial security I started making every decision through the lens of "what is most likely to strengthen my marriage?"

That was a big factor in me letting an 8 figure deal blow up. I knew I "could* make it work if I was willing to tolerate some unpleasantness, but I could not make it work and have my marriage come out the other end stronger. We would be stinking rich, and that would be great because I would need to be able to afford losing half of it.


OP:
My metrics by which I make decisions about what to do with my time are as follows:

-Am I exercising enough *and enjoying it*?
-Am I sleeping enough *and waking rested*?
-Am I primarily eating high quality food?
-Are my loved ones getting enough of my time and energy?
-Is my marriage steadily getting better?
-Do I feel good about myself as a person?

And I measure all money making opportunities with respect to either increasing the above or decreasing them. If the net effect will be an increase in the above because of more money, then I'll do it. If it will be a net decrease because of the trade offs needed for more money, then I consider it too risky.

I've treated a lot of seniors in my time, and the difference between a vital, happy, healthy senior and a worn down, beleaguered senior of the same age is absolutely shocking.

So whatever I do now, at 40, I do with a long view of how it will compound over time and manifest at 75.

Money should never be a goal in and of itself because money isn't anything in and of itself. You could take away most of my aunt's money and replace it with a dummy website that shows a fake bank account, and her quality of life would never change.

Money is a placeholder for time and energy, and life is a series of exchanges we make of our time and energy. If you find a way to exhcnahe your time and energy doing shit you love and getting paid massive sums for it? That's golden.

But for every increment of time and energy you exchange when you would rather be doing something else that would benefit your quality of life, you have to calculate the rate of exchange relative to your particular circumstances. 

My aunt worked through her husband's last year of life, going on a month long work trip to Asia just before he died. They had been married for 50 years. He openly said he felt completely abandoned by her, but that he understood that her work came first.

The work she does for money she doesn't need and will never use.

It's an extreme example, but it makes the point. Money has to actually *do something for you* in order to be worth trading your previous time and energy for.

I'll happily make several million more than I need. DH is also setting himself up to be able to make 7 figures a year in consulting fees. We spend around 45-65K per year. We do not need that money. But it's work that makes our lives, out health, and our marriage better.

As long as it improves my guiding criteria, then bring on the firehose of cash, I'll figure out what dog charity to leave it to when I die, lol.

But if it damages just one of those metrics, especially my marriage, I'm out.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!