What am I missing about student loans?

[startingsmall]

I  am in a profession where student loans are a huge problem. Graduating with student debt of $150k+ and a starting salary of less than half that is the average... and student debt >$250k or salaries <$50k are not at all uncommon.

Recently, I've found myself in more and more conversations​ where I want to offer advice on this issue, because student debt significantly affects the mental health of many of my colleagues. I want to help encourage others to pay down their loans aggressively, freeing them up to do other things with their life. I was lucky to graduate without loans (thanks, Dad!!) but still put far more in savings each month than many of my colleagues pay towards their loans. Yet many of them have it in their heads that they absolutely cannot repay their loans and therefore they don't even try.

Unfortunately, the "experts" in my profession strongly advocate repayment plans based on income. I have loads of concerns with these (will the programs continue to exist? are people really saving for the expected tax bill? etc.)... But my biggest concern is the fact that you then end up with professionals 15-20 yrs into their career, feeling hopeless/suicidal  because they owe even more than they did at graduation. (My profession has an exceedingly high suicide rate and finances are definitely a factor in many cases.) But am I missing some huge benefit to these delayed-payment schemes?

I'm honestly considering seeking additional schooling/training to try to help address this issue in my profession... but first, I figured I'd ask the smart folks at MMM to see if there is something obvious I'm missing.

[gardeningandgreen]

As someone only a few years out of college the income based plans have given me and others some flexibility in jobs. For example for 2 years out of college I was able to do AmeriCorps making hardly any money but also getting a grant to pay off $11000 of my student loans which was huge. It can also give you a chance to pay off anything else you might have since interest rates tend to be lower.

On the other hand it also seems to allow people to get into a mess with credit card debt and cars that they cant afford. Basically if you are responsible it can give you flexibility to build an emergency fund and be a bit more secure in life.

[startingsmall]

As someone only a few years out of college the income based plans have given me and others some flexibility in jobs. For example for 2 years out of college I was able to do AmeriCorps making hardly any money but also getting a grant to pay off $11000 of my student loans which was huge. It can also give you a chance to pay off anything else you might have since interest rates tend to be lower.

On the other hand it also seems to allow people to get into a mess with credit card debt and cars that they cant afford. Basically if you are responsible it can give you flexibility to build an emergency fund and be a bit more secure in life.

I guess I should have added that I COMPLETELY understand why the income-based options can be used to provide a temporary reduction in payments (early in career, due to unforeseen life circumstances, etc.) I just can't understand why they would be recommended as the long-term, default option for the majority of graduates... with the expectation that the debt will never be paid off.

[BTDretire]

As someone only a few years out of college the income based plans have given me and others some flexibility in jobs. For example for 2 years out of college I was able to do AmeriCorps making hardly any money but also getting a grant to pay off $11000 of my student loans which was huge. It can also give you a chance to pay off anything else you might have since interest rates tend to be lower.

Clearly I don't know all the details, but it seems you worked earning hardly any money for 2 years and the got $11,000 to pay on your student loans.
 Couldn't you have got a job in the area of educational training and made more than an additional $5,500 a year?
 

[hoodedfalcon]

I am also in a profession (law) where student loans are large and starting salaries often don't justify the expense. I am ten years out of school, and on an income based repayment on my federal loans and I am also working on paying down private loans. I work for a non-profit with 4 years left before PSLF kicks in. My federal loans were 89K when I graduated and they are still basically 89K. My private loans were 70K and I am hoping to have those paid off this year finally. For years I was making much less (40Kish) than I am now (70kish) so I really didn't have the ability to pay more than I did (I always paid more than the minimum payments though). This month alone I put over 2K towards SL's, after deciding to reduce my 401K contributions to get the loans paid off once and for all.

All that being said, my plan is to keep my fingers crossed PSLF is still around in 4 years. BUT, since my private loans are going to be paid off, I am going to save save save the money I was putting towards the private loans in the event that 1. PSLF disappears or 2. Tax burden. But I think you are right that many people just assume they will be paying SL payments for the foreseable future. And with income based payments, especially PAYE or REPAYE capping payments at 10% of discretionary income, it's totally doable.

The mental health impact is very much ignored, and that is a problem. I am interested in what you are imagining is the fix for the student loan issue? From a mental health perspective especially.

[pellep]

I'm a veterinarian also.  I'm 15 years out of school, and about half way through my loans.  I pay on a 30 year plan due to the low interest rate when I graduated (2%).

Most of the new grads I work with have a sort of "learned helplessness" toward student loans.  It seems accepted that its hopeless.  Why pay beyond IBR when no one else is?  The idea that the government (ie taxpayer) will bail them out at some point makes aggressive payment seem like a suckers move.  The NPV of veterinary degree is negative in some cases.

The whole student loan bubble mirrors the real estate bubble circa 10 years ago.  I don't think it ends well, and  it might be a net positive.  Colleges, administrations, the federal loan program and students need to be recalibrated.

College (as we know it) is ripe for disruption, and  I think the student loan fiscal crisis will be the inciting event.

[startingsmall]

I am also in a profession (law) where student loans are large and starting salaries often don't justify the expense. I am ten years out of school, and on an income based repayment on my federal loans and I am also working on paying down private loans. I work for a non-profit with 4 years left before PSLF kicks in. My federal loans were 89K when I graduated and they are still basically 89K. My private loans were 70K and I am hoping to have those paid off this year finally. For years I was making much less (40Kish) than I am now (70kish) so I really didn't have the ability to pay more than I did (I always paid more than the minimum payments though). This month alone I put over 2K towards SL's, after deciding to reduce my 401K contributions to get the loans paid off once and for all.

All that being said, my plan is to keep my fingers crossed PSLF is still around in 4 years. BUT, since my private loans are going to be paid off, I am going to save save save the money I was putting towards the private loans in the event that 1. PSLF disappears or 2. Tax burden. But I think you are right that many people just assume they will be paying SL payments for the foreseable future. And with income based payments, especially PAYE or REPAYE capping payments at 10% of discretionary income, it's totally doable.

The mental health impact is very much ignored, and that is a problem. I am interested in what you are imagining is the fix for the student loan issue? From a mental health perspective especially.

I definitely don't claim to have the fix. My goal would be to help educate students and those early in their career on how to live a more frugal lifestyle to facilitate early debt repayment and early retirement.

I recently spoke to a colleague about her student debt. When she graduated, she & her husband were making a combined $110k/yr. They briefly contributed $2k/mo to student loans, before deciding that was "killing them" and they wanted to live a little. So her balance now, 5 years later, is essentially the same as it was then, because she slowed her repayment.

I know there are always going to be plenty of people who just don't listen, but I'm trying to gauge whether there may be a role for a mustachian advisor within my profession, because I don't feel that the other finance gurus within our field are taking on that sort of role.

I'm not intending this as a $$$-making venture (though it would be great if it did), but don't want to be giving people wrong opinions.

[startingsmall]

Most of the new grads I work with have a sort of "learned helplessness" toward student loans.  It seems accepted that its hopeless.  Why pay beyond IBR when no one else is?  The idea that the government (ie taxpayer) will bail them out at some point makes aggressive payment seem like a suckers move.  The NPV of veterinary degree is negative in some cases.

Yes, the learned helplessness is exactly what I'm noticing. Not sure if you're on NOMV or any of the other Facebook groups, but that's always the direction the conversation goes and it depresses the hell out of me.

And yes, didn't the most recent study show a return of -$70k on a DVM for women? Love it.

I definitely don't want to entice more people into this career... but I like numbers/finance, I like vets (even though I don't actually like BEING a vet), and I'm wondering if there's a way to combine those two things and put them to good use.

[PDXTabs]

I have a friend that is in this situation from law school. With the coming student loan calamity, I would not be surprised if tax law is changed so that the discharge of indebtedness at the end of IBR is tax free.

[SC93]

I have a better question. How many of those 'expert' professionals that tell you this are millionaires? My guess is that you could count them on less than 1 finger.

[startingsmall]

One of the 'experts' is a fellow member of our profession who also has an MBA. In each of his articles and posts touting income-based repayment methods (he's a paid consultant for an online community where his assigned role is helping people manage student loan debt), he ends with the tagline that he and his wife currently have a combined $400k in student loan debt being paid through the REPAYE program.

Apparently the only required qualification to be a student loan consultant is having​ an insane amount of unpaid loans? Bummer, because that means I'm out.

[COEE]

I've found myself in more and more conversations​ where I want to offer advice on this issue, because student debt significantly affects the mental health of many of my colleagues. I want to help encourage others to pay down their loans aggressively, freeing them up to do other things with their life. I was lucky to graduate without loans (thanks, Dad!!) but still put far more in savings each month than many of my colleagues pay towards their loans.

If I were you, I'd keep my mouth shut unless asked.  You lose all credibility because of the gift your dad gave you (what an AWESOME gift!).  You haven't lived in their shoes - they won't understand your viewpoint.  And frankly, you can't understand their viewpoint either.

I believe we're talking about the veterinary practice.  With that in mind, I have a story.  I recently took the dog into a emergency vet on a Saturday morning due to an impalement on my backyard garden fence.  I was shocked to find out that the final bill was just over a grand.  Let me repeat what I said (mostly for effect, hopefully this sinks in...).  On a Saturday at 8:00am I was able to make contact with a EXPERT in their field in less than 15 minutes, have the dog there all day, get professional attention, have the dog monitored throughout the day, have several nurses watch over her, have x-rays and medication administered, and the bill was $1k!  You have got to be kidding me!  Infreakin'credible.  I also got to take her back twice to have sutures and the plug removed.

I've since had multiple friends tell me that that vet hospital is "the best, but boy are they expensive".  And I'm thinking, I charge more than $1k a day when I contract out my services short term and I don't have half of the overhead!  I would have paid another $1k to have my daughter's best friend sleeping with her tonight in a heartbeat. 

Honestly, I don't know how Vet's survive in the business.  They basically get the training (both in cost and time) of a medical doctor, but are expected to know what they are doing with many multiple breeds and types of pets.  Some are not even mammals for christ sake!  Then the practice makes $1k a day per animal?  Granted in the time I was there, there were several other animals there as well.  But really - that doctor can't be making much more than I do - and has a ton more work.

You see there is a great disparity in veterinary services.  They don't make much money when you consider how busy they are and the loans that most people come out the other end with.  Hell, I had an engineering degree and the wife had a masters in business when we got out of school with $40k in student loans and about $80k in income... and it was HARD getting out of that... took 3 years almost to the day (we were house poor or we would have done it quicker).  I can only imagine what a $150k student loan debt load is like.

My daughter (6) has shown interest in being a vet.  If she goes that route I've decided to work an extra year or two to pay for her schooling.

P.S. the dog doesn't try to jump the fence anymore!

[Laura33]

If I were you, I'd keep my mouth shut unless asked.  You lose all credibility because of the gift your dad gave you (what an AWESOME gift!).  You haven't lived in their shoes - they won't understand your viewpoint. 

+1.

Objectively, you are 100% correct, and you show great empathy with your concern over your fellow practitioners. 

In the real world, however, the fact that you haven't walked in their shoes will cause people to dismiss your advice, because "you don't know what it's like."

Practically speaking, your target audience is people who have already demonstrated that they are not primarily motivated by finances, because they chose a career path where the student-loan-to-post-grad-income ratio is pretty damn crappy.  They are also clearly not averse to debt, because, again, they chose this career path even though it required a massive debt load to do so.  And finally, they are not fiscally conservative, because now that they have this debt, they have not already chosen to throw all their resources at it.

In short, your target audience is people who are motivated by completely different reasons than you are, and who have very different concerns and life goals.  [Side note: they may *say* they want the same things, but people show their values by what they *do*].  As a result, the math that is so obvious to you will not be persuasive to them (if it were, they wouldn't need your help now, would they?).  And rather than grapple with the substance of the issue, they will very likely look for any excuse to dismiss your advice as wrong -- which brings me back to "you can't possibly understand."

Tl;dr:  I think you are a good, kind person for wanting to help.  But you can't save people from themselves when they are determined to follow a different path.  Start with one or two whom you know personally and might help "wake up," and go from there.

[startingsmall]

Well, I'm asking these questions because I'm wondering what it would take to become one of these "experts" myself.

I don't want to practice veterinary medicine anymore. I'm about five years from FIRE, but I don't plan to stop working at that time.... so I'm trying to decide what's next. I love math/numbers/etc. My husband has been trying to get me to go into a financial field for years and I'm starting to wonder if a a DVM/CFP or a DVM/MBA would have a role in the field. While I enjoy working on my own personal finances, the thought of being a typical 'finance person' who just helps already-wealthy people get even more wealthy doesn't appeal to me at all. The thought of helping fellow veterinarians deal with one of the major challenges in their professional AND personal lives does sound appealing.

Currently there's the one DVM/MBA with crazy amounts of debt telling everyone not to worry about paying it off, and a couple of CFP/CPA types who do more conventional financial planning for veterinarians. At least one of those guys does provide more frugal/reasonable advice, but he's getting older and I suspect a lot of the younger veterinarians view his advice as irrelevant because he isn't in the profession, he's an older guy in a suit (remember, almost 90% of new veterinary graduates are female - I'm a female), etc. I'm wondering if there would be a role for a DVM/CFP or DVM/MBA who would provide a perspective that differs from "the other DVM finance guy"..... doing some writing, maybe some speaking, maybe some working with individual clients if they're interested.

[startingsmall]

I believe we're talking about the veterinary practice.  With that in mind, I have a story.  I recently took the dog into a emergency vet on a Saturday morning due to an impalement on my backyard garden fence.  I was shocked to find out that the final bill was just over a grand.  Let me repeat what I said (mostly for effect, hopefully this sinks in...).  On a Saturday at 8:00am I was able to make contact with a EXPERT in their field in less than 15 minutes, have the dog there all day, get professional attention, have the dog monitored throughout the day, have several nurses watch over her, have x-rays and medication administered, and the bill was $1k!  You have got to be kidding me!  Infreakin'credible.  I also got to take her back twice to have sutures and the plug removed.

I've since had multiple friends tell me that that vet hospital is "the best, but boy are they expensive".  And I'm thinking, I charge more than $1k a day when I contract out my services short term and I don't have half of the overhead!  I would have paid another $1k to have my daughter's best friend sleeping with her tonight in a heartbeat. 

Honestly, I don't know how Vet's survive in the business.  They basically get the training (both in cost and time) of a medical doctor, but are expected to know what they are doing with many multiple breeds and types of pets.  Some are not even mammals for christ sake!  Then the practice makes $1k a day per animal?  Granted in the time I was there, there were several other animals there as well.  But really - that doctor can't be making much more than I do - and has a ton more work.

You see there is a great disparity in veterinary services.  They don't make much money when you consider how busy they are and the loans that most people come out the other end with.  Hell, I had an engineering degree and the wife had a masters in business when we got out of school with $40k in student loans and about $80k in income... and it was HARD getting out of that... took 3 years almost to the day (we were house poor or we would have done it quicker).  I can only imagine what a $150k student loan debt load is like.

My daughter (6) has shown interest in being a vet.  If she goes that route I've decided to work an extra year or two to pay for her schooling.

P.S. the dog doesn't try to jump the fence anymore!

I must admit, when I read the first line, my first thought was "oh great, here comes another story about how evil and money-grubbing veterinarians are." Because honestly, when people hear that I'm a vet, 99.9% of the time they tell me a story about how expensive vets are. So thanks for pleasantly surprising me!

And I know that not having any student loans takes away a lot of my credibility. But if my husband and I are saving >$50k/yr on a combined income that's within 10% of my colleague & her husband's combined income immediately after vet school, why did she think that $2k/month was unreasonable? I really feel like learned helplessness is the issue... and I wonder if it would be possible to convince a group of vets that it IS possible to repay their loans and set them on a better path?

[ringer707]

I am also in a profession (law) where student loans are large and starting salaries often don't justify the expense. I am ten years out of school, and on an income based repayment on my federal loans and I am also working on paying down private loans. I work for a non-profit with 4 years left before PSLF kicks in. My federal loans were 89K when I graduated and they are still basically 89K. My private loans were 70K and I am hoping to have those paid off this year finally. For years I was making much less (40Kish) than I am now (70kish) so I really didn't have the ability to pay more than I did (I always paid more than the minimum payments though). This month alone I put over 2K towards SL's, after deciding to reduce my 401K contributions to get the loans paid off once and for all.

All that being said, my plan is to keep my fingers crossed PSLF is still around in 4 years. BUT, since my private loans are going to be paid off, I am going to save save save the money I was putting towards the private loans in the event that 1. PSLF disappears or 2. Tax burden. But I think you are right that many people just assume they will be paying SL payments for the foreseable future. And with income based payments, especially PAYE or REPAYE capping payments at 10% of discretionary income, it's totally doable.

The mental health impact is very much ignored, and that is a problem. I am interested in what you are imagining is the fix for the student loan issue? From a mental health perspective especially.

Same field here, was going to say to the OP that maybe there's a chance your colleagues are on PSLF track? Don't know how readily available those types of jobs are for vets though. I'm two years into PSLF and required to stay on an income-based plan. That's not to say you can't make additional payments, but there's no "incentive" to if the loans are ultimately forgiven.

And another person here very thankful for all of you vets :) I have horses and dogs so spend a lot of time with both large animal and small animal vets, and I am very thankful for their hard work!

[startingsmall]

I am also in a profession (law) where student loans are large and starting salaries often don't justify the expense. I am ten years out of school, and on an income based repayment on my federal loans and I am also working on paying down private loans. I work for a non-profit with 4 years left before PSLF kicks in. My federal loans were 89K when I graduated and they are still basically 89K. My private loans were 70K and I am hoping to have those paid off this year finally. For years I was making much less (40Kish) than I am now (70kish) so I really didn't have the ability to pay more than I did (I always paid more than the minimum payments though). This month alone I put over 2K towards SL's, after deciding to reduce my 401K contributions to get the loans paid off once and for all.

All that being said, my plan is to keep my fingers crossed PSLF is still around in 4 years. BUT, since my private loans are going to be paid off, I am going to save save save the money I was putting towards the private loans in the event that 1. PSLF disappears or 2. Tax burden. But I think you are right that many people just assume they will be paying SL payments for the foreseable future. And with income based payments, especially PAYE or REPAYE capping payments at 10% of discretionary income, it's totally doable.

The mental health impact is very much ignored, and that is a problem. I am interested in what you are imagining is the fix for the student loan issue? From a mental health perspective especially.

Same field here, was going to say to the OP that maybe there's a chance your colleagues are on PSLF track? Don't know how readily available those types of jobs are for vets though. I'm two years into PSLF and required to stay on an income-based plan. That's not to say you can't make additional payments, but there's no "incentive" to if the loans are ultimately forgiven.

And another person here very thankful for all of you vets :) I have horses and dogs so spend a lot of time with both large animal and small animal vets, and I am very thankful for their hard work!

Nope, only a handful qualify for PSLF - most are on IBR, PAYE, and REPAYE.

I've looked at the math/simulations and I understand that the total amount repaid is about the same in the income-driven repayment plans as the 10-yr plan (and maybe even a bit lower than the 20-yr plan), but I think there would be a huge emotional benefit to many in paying off the loans earlier. I read story after story of veterinarians who can't qualify for a mortgage because of their student loan payments.... why not work hard to knock that out in the first 10-15 years instead of having it hang over your head for 25 yrs until forgiveness?

[gardeningandgreen]

As someone only a few years out of college the income based plans have given me and others some flexibility in jobs. For example for 2 years out of college I was able to do AmeriCorps making hardly any money but also getting a grant to pay off $11000 of my student loans which was huge. It can also give you a chance to pay off anything else you might have since interest rates tend to be lower.

On the other hand it also seems to allow people to get into a mess with credit card debt and cars that they cant afford. Basically if you are responsible it can give you flexibility to build an emergency fund and be a bit more secure in life.

I guess I should have added that I COMPLETELY understand why the income-based options can be used to provide a temporary reduction in payments (early in career, due to unforeseen life circumstances, etc.) I just can't understand why they would be recommended as the long-term, default option for the majority of graduates... with the expectation that the debt will never be paid off.

Having the debt never paid off is a terrible plan. But at the beginning of a career it can be a good option short term.

[gardeningandgreen]

As someone only a few years out of college the income based plans have given me and others some flexibility in jobs. For example for 2 years out of college I was able to do AmeriCorps making hardly any money but also getting a grant to pay off $11000 of my student loans which was huge. It can also give you a chance to pay off anything else you might have since interest rates tend to be lower.

Clearly I don't know all the details, but it seems you worked earning hardly any money for 2 years and the got $11,000 to pay on your student loans.
 Couldn't you have got a job in the area of educational training and made more than an additional $5,500 a year?

For me it worked out to get experience and figure out my life. From it I learned that I did not want to go back to school in that field. My family also needed a lot of help and I was able to live with them and provide that help while also making slightly above minimum wage and getting a significant amount of my student loans paid off. I have also always been the type of person who wants to give back to my community and this was one option. I seriously thought about doing PeaceCorps but that just didn't work with my life at the time. I also only had around $25,000 in student loans a the time so it made sense to kill almost half of it in 2 years while also having the flexibility to help my family and do something good for the community.

[startingsmall]

My daughter (6) has shown interest in being a vet.  If she goes that route I've decided to work an extra year or two to pay for her schooling.

Even without the debt issue clouding my decision (and therefore being in a much better financial position than most veterinarians), I wish I had done something different with my life. Working as a small animal veterinarian is more monotony & retail work than the rewarding/fulfilling career that I had envisioned.... so I find myself thinking of all of the other monotonous careers that would have provided better financial returns, or all of the more fulfilling careers I could have chosen if I hadn't been focused on vet med.

For anyone who does have a child considering vet med, though, here's a helpful resource to help with your financial planning: http://www.vin.com/studentdebtcenter/default.aspx?pid=14352&id=7728661

[BTDretire]

As someone only a few years out of college the income based plans have given me and others some flexibility in jobs. For example for 2 years out of college I was able to do AmeriCorps making hardly any money but also getting a grant to pay off $11000 of my student loans which was huge. It can also give you a chance to pay off anything else you might have since interest rates tend to be lower.

Clearly I don't know all the details, but it seems you worked earning hardly any money for 2 years and the got $11,000 to pay on your student loans.
 Couldn't you have got a job in the area of educational training and made more than an additional $5,500 a year?

I think you would have to make more than $5,500 per year in order to make an additional $5,500 in student loan payments with after tax money.  But this isn't really a fair rebuttal argument since it doesn't really get at your point: Why not just earn more money and go that route?

Well for starters that might be easier said than done.

As I said,I don't know all the details. I assumed the the AmeriCorps income was maybe $20k.
I also assumed that the student loans were high, $100k (could be wrong and they were $30k)
 At $100k I would think you were educated to make more than $50k, that would have easily
covered more than $5.5k of loan payments.On the other hand, living expenses may have been higher
in a regular job.
  I presented another option, to someone thinking of giving advice.
If he looks at my option and says, "I did it right",
then maybe he has a little more credibility to give his advice.

Also, perhaps someone wants to engage in public service. 

 That's great! but that does not make it a better financial decision.

For a person with a large student loan debt load, this would probably only be feasible with some combination of an income based plan and grants from the program.  If it is not made feasible for people with student loan debt, it would end up depriving the organization of college educated individuals who were unable to finance their education without the substantial use of loans.  In my opinion it doesn't take long to see what affect this would have on the demographics of the people of public service organizations.

Also, here's something else to check out:

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service

Employees in the public sector can have their loans forgiven after  120  qualifying payments (10 years).  Under these circumstances it would make the most sense to pay the lowest amount in order for the forgiveness to have the greatest payoff.

[Proud Foot]

I think the DVM/CFP would be a great way to go if you wanted to get out of the practice of vet medicine.  Having the experience as a DVM would help set yourself apart in that niche.  When you want to get started you could always contact your alma-mater and see if you could meet with the graduating class or recent graduates to offer your services at a reduced price.  Even though you don't have the experience of the debt being an expert on what is available would be a huge plus.

[COEE]

Working as a small animal veterinarian is more monotony & retail work than the rewarding/fulfilling career that I had envisioned....

Are you sure it's not where you work or who you work with?  We used to take our dog to a awful corporate run vet in one of the big pet retailers, ***cough***Banfield***cough*** and had many horrible experiences before our eyes opened up to how a veterinary clinic should be run - and how much it should cost.

Honestly - I hated the vet when we went there.  It took several years, but we finally figured out that every trip to the vet should NOT be $500.  We also learned we needed to save for pet emergencies like the one I described earlier so that it didn't hurt so bad when we had one.  We now have a great vet that charges us about $100 for our dogs yearly shots and other things as we need it.  And we have a awesome 24 hour emergency vet that charges reasonable rates to have immediate attention within 15 minutes of a accident.

How many clinics have you worked at?  Have you worked with a corporate company and a private clinic?  Do you own your own practice?  There are many ways to try change things up in your current practice so that you enjoy it more.  Do you volunteer at all at your local humane society?

[startingsmall]

I have 11 years of experience... I've worked for Banfield (multiple locations) and 4 different private clinics. Ownership is out of the question for a number of reasons and spay/neuter work doesn't really interest me.

[BTDretire]

My daughter just graduated. (truncated what sounded like bragging.)
I went to the graduation and a dinner with about 15 other grads. Some talk was about one grad going into vet training and how the average starting income is $60k. And she is doing it because of her love for animals.

"Veterinarian: Salary Details. The BLS reports that veterinarians earned a median salary of $88,490 in 2015. The best-paid veterinarians earned $158,260, while the lowest-paid earned $53,210. Veterinarians working in scientific research tend to be among the highest-paid."
From: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/veterinarian/salary

[MrsPete]

Yes, the learned helplessness is exactly what I'm noticing.

Learned helplessness is a big problem in society:  Everyone has credit card debt.  You can't have a car without a loan.  No one can possibly go to college without incurring debt.  And if you don't fit into these categories people think you're either lying or you've had help from a big inheritance (or similar). 

[inline five]

For me it worked out to get experience and figure out my life. From it I learned that I did not want to go back to school in that field. My family also needed a lot of help and I was able to live with them and provide that help while also making slightly above minimum wage and getting a significant amount of my student loans paid off. I have also always been the type of person who wants to give back to my community and this was one option. I seriously thought about doing PeaceCorps but that just didn't work with my life at the time. I also only had around $25,000 in student loans a the time so it made sense to kill almost half of it in 2 years while also having the flexibility to help my family and do something good for the community.

That's great but ridiculous to put the burden on the taxpayer to help pay off your loans when those are things you wanted to do. Entitlement much?

[inline five]

I believe we're talking about the veterinary practice.  With that in mind, I have a story.  I recently took the dog into a emergency vet on a Saturday morning due to an impalement on my backyard garden fence.  I was shocked to find out that the final bill was just over a grand.  Let me repeat what I said (mostly for effect, hopefully this sinks in...).  On a Saturday at 8:00am I was able to make contact with a EXPERT in their field in less than 15 minutes, have the dog there all day, get professional attention, have the dog monitored throughout the day, have several nurses watch over her, have x-rays and medication administered, and the bill was $1k!  You have got to be kidding me!  Infreakin'credible.  I also got to take her back twice to have sutures and the plug removed.

I've since had multiple friends tell me that that vet hospital is "the best, but boy are they expensive".  And I'm thinking, I charge more than $1k a day when I contract out my services short term and I don't have half of the overhead!  I would have paid another $1k to have my daughter's best friend sleeping with her tonight in a heartbeat. 

Honestly, I don't know how Vet's survive in the business.  They basically get the training (both in cost and time) of a medical doctor, but are expected to know what they are doing with many multiple breeds and types of pets.  Some are not even mammals for christ sake!  Then the practice makes $1k a day per animal?  Granted in the time I was there, there were several other animals there as well.  But really - that doctor can't be making much more than I do - and has a ton more work

That's because there isn't health insurance distorting prices. What you've described is basically how regular human health services should work and cost yet we distort them with 'not my money' insurance making costs astronomical.

[gardeningandgreen]

For me it worked out to get experience and figure out my life. From it I learned that I did not want to go back to school in that field. My family also needed a lot of help and I was able to live with them and provide that help while also making slightly above minimum wage and getting a significant amount of my student loans paid off. I have also always been the type of person who wants to give back to my community and this was one option. I seriously thought about doing PeaceCorps but that just didn't work with my life at the time. I also only had around $25,000 in student loans a the time so it made sense to kill almost half of it in 2 years while also having the flexibility to help my family and do something good for the community.

That's great but ridiculous to put the burden on the taxpayer to help pay off your loans when those are things you wanted to do. Entitlement much?

Not at all. I provided a much needed service in my community. Part of my agreed upon compensation was paying back part of my student loans. I could have used the same money to go back to school or if I was older I could have given it to a child or grandchild. I had to complete a full year of service with over 1000 hours in order to be granted the repayment.

[COEE]

I have 11 years of experience... I've worked for Banfield (multiple locations) and 4 different private clinics. Ownership is out of the question for a number of reasons and spay/neuter work doesn't really interest me.

Well it sounds like you've tried some different things - if being some sort of financial planner for the veterinary community  interests you - I say go for it.  As MrsPete points out - I think society has the problem with this defeatist attitude - which is one hurdle for sure.  Also, having not gone through the agony of a high student loan debt might be a potential hurdle for some clients, but I could be wrong there.

BTW - Who says you have to do spay/neuter work at the humane society?  Who says they even need to know your a vet?  You're there on your own time.  Do whatever you feel like!  What makes you happy?  Help people match with new pets.  Sweep the floors.  Try detective work joining families with their lost pets.  Walk some of the dogs.  Just sit around and pet some of the cats.  Feed some of the birds to the cats or feed the cats to the dogs.  I kid, I kid.

Pet rescues are awesome too - I've got two of my pets from breed specific rescues.  You can do many similar things with those too - but at home.  You could provide vet services without the rescue even knowing it probably.  I probably wouldn't tell a rescue you're a vet, personally - I'd just offer up my help.

Provide some low income vet care to families that need it and couldn't afford the care otherwise.  I suspect this is common.  You could also do education for these families that really need the help.  Maybe make one client a day like this.  Pro-bono... something to make you happy.  Do it out of your house if the people you're working with / for don't like pro-bono work.  In fact - if the people you work with don't like pro-bono work - I suggest you're working at the wrong clinic!

I called my aunt (also a vet) and she suggested asking if you've ever worked for a vet that wasn't commission based so that money isn't the only thing driving your work.  Also perhaps getting into larger animal care might be something to think about.  She also provides acupuncture to her patients - it's becoming very popular - perhaps a specialty like this would provide better clients for you.

Personally, I think Banfield is the devil of the veterinary care community.  It's a money grubbing awful company and very unmustachian - no wonder you feel like a retailer!  If the private clinics you've worked for have had similar environments to Banfield - I'd suggest finding a different type of clinic.  They are out there (my aunt assured me of this) - you just have to find them and target them for your work.

Just trying to offer suggestions to maybe jump-start the spark again.  Good vets are hard to come by (I know) - I think it's mostly because of the problems you've pointed out.  But they are paid well.  Especially in your situation - Yay Dad!

[ol1970]

I really struggle with this one because I understand completely the value of a quality education, but at the same time I think the system is completely broken.  The cost of education has gone up exponentially relative to the salaries of the jobs they are training these people to do.  In certain high paying professions I could see incurring some level of debt...but why in the hell don't smart people do the same value analysis of an education that they do in other parts of their life?

I've encountered numerous people who are "upset" and the banks "'tricked them" into taking out massive student loan debt.  I'm sorry but you were an adult and nobody held a gun to your head...sad part is its when kids don't know anything about money at 17 and 18 years old and the destructive nature of debt.  Nobody teaches personal finance in high school, but you have bullshit Home Ec and French literature. 

Honestly what is the difference between going out and spending $3,000 on the most amazing dinner (on credit that you cannot afford), and then a year later when your credit card bill is due complaining that it wasn't worth it and you are going to declare bankruptcy.  I don't have he answer other than 1) educate kids sooner 2) stop paying these universities (pumping out snowflakes) ridiculously overpriced tuition for that liberal arts degree so you can work at Subway

Its supply and demand, and until you stop paying for the luxury that doesn't return the value, it is just going to continue.  Go to community college, go to a vocational school, shop for value the same way you should in every other aspect of life.

[notactiveanymore]

I also didn't have any student loans from my college experience (bachelor's only, tons of scholarships, the tab picked up by parents), but when we got married my husband had $55,000 in student loans from grad school. We decided to pay them off aggressively and managed to do it in 21 months with an average annual gross income of $75k during that time.

And guess what, I still don't tell people (IRL) how to handle their money. But I did blog about our story the entire way and shared our lessons learned and our motivations and the math. Through that, over 20 people reached out to me privately with questions or for advice. From that group, about 8 attempted their own debt repayments. None of them have looked identical to ours. For two or three closer friends, we have actually gotten out the numbers and gone over repayment strategies and talked about the risks and rewards and how to optimize repayment of loans. For one couple we paid for them to go through Dave Ramsey's FPU course because they were newlyweds with a lot of debt, not a great income, and zero experience budgeting.

My point is that the information is out there and surely people in your field do not think they are stuck with only one guy's advice on student loan repayment. There is nothing inherently unique about owing a lot on student loans but being in a low-paying industry.

People don't like talking about money with their friends or colleagues. I was able to get past some of the taboo by sharing our own financial story which resonated with many in my circle. I'm not sure how you could get past that without having any unique insight into the experience.

[therethere]

I had a ton of student loans and in comparison could be considered "low salary" (total of loans were more than 2x my average salary). Personally, I would roll my eyes and ignore anything someone would say about student loans if they never had them themselves. Hell, I did that to bloggers I read with their "I Crushed My Student Loans in 2 Years and You Can Too!" headlines, because inevitably you'd click the link and their huge student loans were <25k. Such a joke when your loans are >100k it's not even the same ballpark.

Once you get above a certain level of student loan debt there is a level of balance you must find or else you will burn out. Sure you can shove math down their throats and tell them they can pay them off ASAP if they send xxxxxx/month for xxx years and stop eating out. But what you are missing is empathy of having walked in their shoes and the compromises they have to make on an everyday life to balance loans, savings, happiness, work life balance, peer pressure, etc. It's extremely difficult to stay on a strict budget for the 10 years it would take to pay off these very high loans as you propose. There's a ton of emotional factors of hopelessness, depression, stress, and anxiety that can all play into it too. If people aren't personally invested in it, your advice and coaching would go nowhere.

Also, provided they stay around in current form, utilizing some of these IBR and loan forgiveness stuff can actually put people in a better position (provided they are saving the difference of their payments). So it is not a no-brainer to say all IBR is the wrong choice. I think you should do your best to stay out of it completely, even casual conversations. Without having lived through it you don't really have the place or background to advise people on student loan repayment options. Leave it to others on the wonderful internet to guide people please.

[startingsmall]

My daughter just graduated. (truncated what sounded like bragging.)
I went to the graduation and a dinner with about 15 other grads. Some talk was about one grad going into vet training and how the average starting income is $60k. And she is doing it because of her love for animals.

"Veterinarian: Salary Details. The BLS reports that veterinarians earned a median salary of $88,490 in 2015. The best-paid veterinarians earned $158,260, while the lowest-paid earned $53,210. Veterinarians working in scientific research tend to be among the highest-paid."
From: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/veterinarian/salary

Here's an article that discussing starting salaries for veterinarians: https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/150615a.aspx

[startingsmall]

I have 11 years of experience... I've worked for Banfield (multiple locations) and 4 different private clinics. Ownership is out of the question for a number of reasons and spay/neuter work doesn't really interest me.

Well it sounds like you've tried some different things - if being some sort of financial planner for the veterinary community  interests you - I say go for it.  As MrsPete points out - I think society has the problem with this defeatist attitude - which is one hurdle for sure.  Also, having not gone through the agony of a high student loan debt might be a potential hurdle for some clients, but I could be wrong there.

BTW - Who says you have to do spay/neuter work at the humane society?  Who says they even need to know your a vet?  You're there on your own time.  Do whatever you feel like!  What makes you happy?  Help people match with new pets.  Sweep the floors.  Try detective work joining families with their lost pets.  Walk some of the dogs.  Just sit around and pet some of the cats.  Feed some of the birds to the cats or feed the cats to the dogs.  I kid, I kid.

Pet rescues are awesome too - I've got two of my pets from breed specific rescues.  You can do many similar things with those too - but at home.  You could provide vet services without the rescue even knowing it probably.  I probably wouldn't tell a rescue you're a vet, personally - I'd just offer up my help.

Provide some low income vet care to families that need it and couldn't afford the care otherwise.  I suspect this is common.  You could also do education for these families that really need the help.  Maybe make one client a day like this.  Pro-bono... something to make you happy.  Do it out of your house if the people you're working with / for don't like pro-bono work.  In fact - if the people you work with don't like pro-bono work - I suggest you're working at the wrong clinic!

I called my aunt (also a vet) and she suggested asking if you've ever worked for a vet that wasn't commission based so that money isn't the only thing driving your work.  Also perhaps getting into larger animal care might be something to think about.  She also provides acupuncture to her patients - it's becoming very popular - perhaps a specialty like this would provide better clients for you.

Personally, I think Banfield is the devil of the veterinary care community.  It's a money grubbing awful company and very unmustachian - no wonder you feel like a retailer!  If the private clinics you've worked for have had similar environments to Banfield - I'd suggest finding a different type of clinic.  They are out there (my aunt assured me of this) - you just have to find them and target them for your work.

Just trying to offer suggestions to maybe jump-start the spark again.  Good vets are hard to come by (I know) - I think it's mostly because of the problems you've pointed out.  But they are paid well.  Especially in your situation - Yay Dad!

Some of the private practices I've worked for have paid on salary, others on production. Regardless, all veterinarians are required to 'earn their keep.' Depending on who you ask, a veterinarian's total compensation (including benefits) should be ~22-25% of what they produce for the clinic. Salaries are lowered if production targets aren't met (I had mine lowered by 32% once, because the clinic's numbers started falling!), or doctors are forced to see more patients (I had one boss who liked to walk around and say "zoom! zoom!" if he felt we weren't churning rooms fast enough), or doctors are let go if there isn't sufficient demand to pay their salary. Even on salary, the pay is still based on commission to at least some extent. 

I do plenty of volunteer work, both animal-related and unrelated, so that isn't the issue. Just trying to figure out what I want to do when I FIRE (or semi-FIRE).

Large animal work isn't appealing to me right now. I have a young child and my husband already has on-call duties with his job, so middle-of-the-night farm calls aren't realistic. I've considered acupuncture, but it's not really something that interests me. I've also considered the at-home euthanasia veterinarian route, but the idea of doing euthanasias without a technician present makes me uncomfortable due to liability concerns. (I was actually seriously considering it a few years ago.... until I had a veterinarian from one of the major home-euthanasia companies come to my home to help me euthanize my dog. My dog bit the SHIT out of me after he was sedated, requiring multiple specialist visits and causing me to worry that I may lose the use of my hand. It wasn't a big deal with me, because I understood the risk and didn't hold the doctor at all responsible, but what if I had been a "normal" client?)

I'm fine with plodding along as a small animal vet in the short term, because you're right that ~$45/hr isn't the worst pay on earth and there certainly are worse jobs out there..... just looking for something more fulfilling for after FIRE. After all, isn't that why all of us are here? Because we envision a life more fulfilling than our 'day job?'

As for my kiddo, I'm hoping she'll go into engineering. I should have. (I feel like my 800 GRE math and 800 GRE analytical are kind of wasted in veterinary practice... need more mental stimulation!!)

[startingsmall]

People don't like talking about money with their friends or colleagues. I was able to get past some of the taboo by sharing our own financial story which resonated with many in my circle. I'm not sure how you could get past that without having any unique insight into the experience.

I totally understand this. My goal wouldn't be specifically discussing loans, but personal finance in general. I'd wait to do this until I was FIRE'd (or semi-FIRE'd), so my hook would be something along the lines of "I'm a vet, married to a pastor, and still managed to save $1 million after just 15 years of work" (or whatever). I'm not strictly interested in talking to people about loans, but I recognize that loans are a huge piece of the puzzle for many.

[COEE]

..... just looking for something more fulfilling for after FIRE. After all, isn't that why all of us are here? Because we envision a life more fulfilling than our 'day job?'

Corrected that for you.   

I guess what I'm trying to say is, who says you have to wait to FIRE?  You have to be willing to take risks, play with the cards you've been dealt, and be happy where you are.  The book "Your Money or Your Life" by Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez has a great line in it (get that book by the way - it deals with much more than just money).  Just happened to have the book next to me so I looked it up - Chapter 1, paragraph 4:

There is a way to approach life so that when asked, "Your money or your life?" you say, "I'll take both, thank you."

I'd suggest taking the in-home euthanasia and run with it.  There are ways around all of your fears.  Liability insurance and LLC's are designed to protect you and your family in a dog bite situation.  You can hire a Tech to help.  Just reflect those items in your price.  Will your price be higher than some?  Sure.  But I'm guessing there's a market for not having to restrain your own pet in his last living moments.  The in-home euthanasia idea is beautiful.  You get to give comfort to the family and offer peace in the hardest time that a family can go through.  It's probably also relatively profitable - truly a win for everyone.

This is my last post on this thread.  I sincerely hope you think about the ideas and suggestions in this thread by myself and others and can find that spark you once had for vet care.  Take it and chew on it a bit.  Look at yourself and see who you once were, who you are now, and where you want to go.  Really spend time evaluating yourself.  I think you're in that process now - and part of the reason you posted this thread to begin with - but don't stop there.  It's an evolving process.

I'll leave you with one final thought.

I think your heart is 100% in the right place, but it just needs redirected a smidge.  I don't think you have the experience that will be needed to lovingly show people the way with their finances - you just haven't lived it.  It is a struggle.  One of the hardest thing I've had to do in my entire life is miss just about every day of my daughters life between ages 1 to 4 to work overtime to pay off my student loans more quickly.  The days I did see her I was too exhausted or busy to really give her quality time.  It's something that I regret to this day, and probably will the rest of my life.  That is the struggle.

[melanie2008]

Do you have a friend you trust and may be interested in your advice and paying student loans early? It might help you better understand student loans better. I finished school and additional training in 2012 and hope to have my loans paid off in 1.5 years. Initially my debt to income ratio was near 1.5:1. My salary now is better so it is closer to 1:1 (initial debt:current salary). With saving for retirement, I can imagine that paying off a higher debt burden could be hard especially since many are have a ratio well over 2:1.

I know that I floundered for a bit when I first finished. I had what I would call decision paralysis. I knew I was supposed to pay my student loans, but I also knew I should save for retirement (and I was behind!) and save for a house etc. I tried to do it all, but always debated about paying more on loans vs investing vs saving. I think you could def help provide people/vets with structure and an approach to managing money. I found it helpful since I am very goal oriented and having a strategy has helped me be more efficient (MMM helped me with this). This is something that vin does not provide. I wonder if you get your CFA, if you could join in on those debt management programs we had in vet school. That would be very helpful.

In terms of my classmates, I know one has paid her loans off. One is doing income based repayment and has a savings with interest to pay for the expected taxes on the forgiven amount at the end. Others still haven't even refinanced/consolidated their loans yet. Some tried with Sofi but they didn't earn enough. Others are worried that refinancing may affect repayment options esp if they did get injured or lost a job. That would be something to look into as well.

I too love numbers and think maybe I should have been an accountant!

[startingsmall]

Do you have a friend you trust and may be interested in your advice and paying student loans early? It might help you better understand student loans better. I finished school and additional training in 2012 and hope to have my loans paid off in 1.5 years. Initially my debt to income ratio was near 1.5:1. My salary now is better so it is closer to 1:1 (initial debt:current salary). With saving for retirement, I can imagine that paying off a higher debt burden could be hard especially since many are have a ratio well over 2:1.

I know that I floundered for a bit when I first finished. I had what I would call decision paralysis. I knew I was supposed to pay my student loans, but I also knew I should save for retirement (and I was behind!) and save for a house etc. I tried to do it all, but always debated about paying more on loans vs investing vs saving. I think you could def help provide people/vets with structure and an approach to managing money. I found it helpful since I am very goal oriented and having a strategy has helped me be more efficient (MMM helped me with this). This is something that vin does not provide. I wonder if you get your CFA, if you could join in on those debt management programs we had in vet school. That would be very helpful.

In terms of my classmates, I know one has paid her loans off. One is doing income based repayment and has a savings with interest to pay for the expected taxes on the forgiven amount at the end. Others still haven't even refinanced/consolidated their loans yet. Some tried with Sofi but they didn't earn enough. Others are worried that refinancing may affect repayment options esp if they did get injured or lost a job. That would be something to look into as well.

I too love numbers and think maybe I should have been an accountant!

I spent several months last year seriously considering retraining to become an actuary. How lame is that?! But I kind of think it would be awesome.

And yes, I would absolutely love to be one of the vet school personal finance speakers. Fritz Wood is absolutely awesome, but he's a guy, and he's not a vet, and eventually he'll age out, right? (On the plus side, however, he DOES emphasize the importance of living below your means, saving for retirement, etc!) I'd be interesting in doing something like that.... doing some one-on-one help when needed, but also writing, speaking, etc. And yeah, unlike the VIN loan guy, providing a more holistic financial planning approach.

[bb11]

Personally, I would roll my eyes and ignore anything someone would say about student loans if they never had them themselves. Hell, I did that to bloggers I read with their "I Crushed My Student Loans in 2 Years and You Can Too!" headlines, because inevitably you'd click the link and their huge student loans were <25k. Such a joke when your loans are >100k it's not even the same ballpark.

I agree with this. If your dad can pay 100k+ tuition costs you are just not going to be coming from the same perspective the average person goes through, and should not be giving advice on handling student debt. You are only going to incur resentment, as you're trying to solve their problem when you had the solution handed to you. I would be pretty pissed having to listen to that if it were me.

[SwordGuy]

Learned helplessness is a real thing and it has infested a lot of people's world views.   It's sad.

The worst prisons are those that people build with their own minds to imprison themselves.

[BTDretire]

That's great but ridiculous to put the burden on the taxpayer to help pay off your loans when those are things you wanted to do. Entitlement much?

Not at all. I provided a much needed service in my community. Part of my agreed upon compensation was paying back part of my student loans. I could have used the same money to go back to school or if I was older I could have given it to a child or grandchild. I had to complete a full year of service with over 1000 hours in order to be granted the repayment.

With a little more info, I see others could work the system for more benefit.
 Basically you got $5.50 an hour that went to pay the student loans, $11,000/ 2000hrs, 1000hrs per yr
 So someone could work 20hrs for the community and get another part time 20 hour
a week job to probably double their income. If they save the money from the part time job,
they should be able to pay at least another $11,000 on the student loans.
 Also, my 57 year old wife is working 60 hrs a week, no reason a young person couldn't do that also.
20 hrs community service and a full time job.
There are two pieces of useful advice Startingsmall could give those with Student debt.

 My kids are lucky also, we will not let them get student loans, I have one that before she's finished
will have two BS's, one Masters and a Dental degree and the other, if we are lucky a BS. :-)

[ReadySetMillionaire]

I had a ton of student loans and in comparison could be considered "low salary" (total of loans were more than 2x my average salary). Personally, I would roll my eyes and ignore anything someone would say about student loans if they never had them themselves. Hell, I did that to bloggers I read with their "I Crushed My Student Loans in 2 Years and You Can Too!" headlines, because inevitably you'd click the link and their huge student loans were <25k. Such a joke when your loans are >100k it's not even the same ballpark.
***
Also, provided they stay around in current form, utilizing some of these IBR and loan forgiveness stuff can actually put people in a better position (provided they are saving the difference of their payments). So it is not a no-brainer to say all IBR is the wrong choice. I think you should do your best to stay out of it completely, even casual conversations. Without having lived through it you don't really have the place or background to advise people on student loan repayment options. Leave it to others on the wonderful internet to guide people please.

OP, if you don't know the math on why strategically using REPAYE/PAYE/IBR makes mathetical sense for a lot of people (more so than rapidly paying off loans), then I'd suggest you don't know enough to start telling people what to do with their loans.

Also, I would politely tell you to kiss my ass when I found out that you graduated with no student loans.

[startingsmall]

A few final thoughts....

OP, if you don't know the math on why strategically using REPAYE/PAYE/IBR makes mathetical sense for a lot of people (more so than rapidly paying off loans), then I'd suggest you don't know enough to start telling people what to do with their loans.

Obviously, I don't know enough to start telling people what to do with their loans. I'm pretty sure that I clearly stated above (and if I didn't, I apologize and maybe that's where the misunderstanding is coming in) that this isn't something I plan to start doing tomorrow, but instead as a second career.... AFTER appropriate training. Before I start telling anyone what to do with anything, I planned to pursue a CFP, MBA, or some other sort of educational program and do a lot more in-depth research on related issues. This post was my very first effort to 'feel out' what issues might be involved. 

Also, I would politely tell you to kiss my ass when I found out that you graduated with no student loans.

A number of people made this comment, yet I must admit that it took me by surprise. I don't know that it has ever occurred to me to ask a financial adviser how much student debt they accrued.  How much student debt did Dave Ramsey, MMM, or the White Coat Investor have? How much did the CFP/CPA who taught our business course in veterinary school graduate with? I can't say it's ever occurred to me to ask. Apparently, I'm just an outlier.

On the plus side, this conversation HAS made me realize that this probably isn't a good goal for me. When I FIRE, I want to do something that will allow me to "give back" to the community/world. I also, however, want to get out of being in a work environment that constantly has me dealing with skeptical clients, feeling like I constantly have to justify and defend myself. I had envisioned financial planning as an approach that would allow me to work collaboratively with others to help them achieve their goals.... but, based on the comments here (and my visceral reactions to them!), any sort of financial planning work would probably just be stepping "out of the frying pan and into the fire."

So, time to dismiss with the FIRE-to-personal-finance plan and return to my original plan of a retirement filled with wildlife work. Thank you for helping me realize that... and I promise that I genuinely mean that, in a non-sarcastic, non-snarky way!!

[jj_k80]

I am also shocked by the number of people saying you shouldn't advise on debt because you didn't have any.  You wouldn't keep your mouth shut about credit card debt if you'd never run it up yourself.  If your parents bought you a house in cash that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to talk about mortgages.  You don't have to walk in someone's shoes to see their errors and help them out.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

A few final thoughts....

OP, if you don't know the math on why strategically using REPAYE/PAYE/IBR makes mathetical sense for a lot of people (more so than rapidly paying off loans), then I'd suggest you don't know enough to start telling people what to do with their loans.

Obviously, I don't know enough to start telling people what to do with their loans. I'm pretty sure that I clearly stated above (and if I didn't, I apologize and maybe that's where the misunderstanding is coming in) that this isn't something I plan to start doing tomorrow, but instead as a second career.... AFTER appropriate training. Before I start telling anyone what to do with anything, I planned to pursue a CFP, MBA, or some other sort of educational program and do a lot more in-depth research on related issues. This post was my very first effort to 'feel out' what issues might be involved. 

Also, I would politely tell you to kiss my ass when I found out that you graduated with no student loans.

A number of people made this comment, yet I must admit that it took me by surprise. I don't know that it has ever occurred to me to ask a financial adviser how much student debt they accrued.  How much student debt did Dave Ramsey, MMM, or the White Coat Investor have? How much did the CFP/CPA who taught our business course in veterinary school graduate with? I can't say it's ever occurred to me to ask. Apparently, I'm just an outlier.

On the plus side, this conversation HAS made me realize that this probably isn't a good goal for me. When I FIRE, I want to do something that will allow me to "give back" to the community/world. I also, however, want to get out of being in a work environment that constantly has me dealing with skeptical clients, feeling like I constantly have to justify and defend myself. I had envisioned financial planning as an approach that would allow me to work collaboratively with others to help them achieve their goals.... but, based on the comments here (and my visceral reactions to them!), any sort of financial planning work would probably just be stepping "out of the frying pan and into the fire."

So, time to dismiss with the FIRE-to-personal-finance plan and return to my original plan of a retirement filled with wildlife work. Thank you for helping me realize that... and I promise that I genuinely mean that, in a non-sarcastic, non-snarky way!!

Your posts emanated a gross oversimplification of student loan debt, which largely indicated that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this topic.

You don't need an MBA or CPA or whatever, you just need to read the vast amount of information online.

For tens of millions of borrowers, your advice to "just pay them off!" is actually pretty reckless and contrary to the math. Hence my continued reaction that I would politely tell you to kiss my ass if you told me to pay off $147k in loans, because I am quite confident that you haven't run the numbers.