FiRED & not caring about what others think about us --> Road to being an A-Hole?

[Ron Scott]

My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

So you took shit at work until you saved enough money to retire? Why not just find a different job?

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I FiRED in 2018 @ age 47.
I no longer care what others think of me because they are still working and i'm not.
...

Just this opening made me think you were a bit of an 'I'm better than all of you' a-hole.  What is it about people that are still employed that immediately makes you think they are inferior?  You never know what others have gone through or are going through - nowadays many people have been impacted negatively by a health issue and/or related costs.

Also, echoing what others have said, once I was content in my FI status, I've found it much easier to be more generous and patient with other people.  I am more self-confident and practice gratitude regularly, while also continuing to work on myself (existing higher on that pyramid thingie).  It's a pretty good recipe for being a person that is, if nothing else, not as a-hole-ish as many others.

Agreed. I first had that "WTF?" moment reading that. I mean there are many people out there working their butt off to feed, clothe and shelter their kids and, often due to no fault of their own, struggling to get by and the OP finds that a reason to be mean? I found that being FI is a reason to be kinder and to find gratitude and appreciation for working people not to grind them under your heels.

Although I'll admit that I'm sometimes an A* hole to high earning FI/RE people due to what I sometimes see as too much lack of appreciation for what they have (too much whining LOL) but I generally try to be kind to everyone and don't see how being FIREd (which I am) has anything to do with it.

Taking it another step further, my wife still works as a school teacher and many people volunteer or take low paying jobs for lots of personal reasons (socialization, engagement, challenge).  You know what they say about ass-umptions...

Best to keep an open mind and check your priveledge at the door until you get to know someone better, I'm constantly surprised by how great people generally are if you get to know them better or at least give them an honest chance to get to know them.

[Laura33]

My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

So you took shit at work until you saved enough money to retire? Why not just find a different job?

Why would you assume that there is any job out there that doesn't involve some degree of shit? 

[twinstudy]

My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

So you took shit at work until you saved enough money to retire? Why not just find a different job?

Earning enough money to give myself a very stable base (where I could go for years or a decade or two without income, if required) allowed me to do several things that I would not have otherwise:

1. I aggressively sought counter-offers from rival firms, knowing I had a safety net if things fell through.

2. I gave my boss an ultimatum - let me do the work I want to do with autonomy, or I quit.

3. I made good use of the extra experience I gained from that last step when I resigned and opened up my own practice.

4. In my own practice, I am ruthless about culling clients who try to bargain down fees or who don't pay on time. I give much less grace than most of my colleagues, because I'm not afraid of the consequences of enforcing a fair request.

[Ron Scott]

My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

So you took shit at work until you saved enough money to retire? Why not just find a different job?

Why would you assume that there is any job out there that doesn't involve some degree of shit?

If we’re talking “some degree” of shit now i think just living in the world gets you that. I mean you have to be able to deal with at least some degree of shit. Thats the ante-up…

If you got into a position at work however where you’re constantly taking shit snd there’s no end, you don’t need to be Financially Independent to job hunt.

[Laura33]

My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

So you took shit at work until you saved enough money to retire? Why not just find a different job?

Why would you assume that there is any job out there that doesn't involve some degree of shit?

If we’re talking “some degree” of shit now i think just living in the world gets you that. I mean you have to be able to deal with at least some degree of shit. Thats the ante-up…

If you got into a position at work however where you’re constantly taking shit snd there’s no end, you don’t need to be Financially Independent to job hunt.

Right.  But how aggressive you can be about the amount of shit you're willing to take, and the risk of another job falling through, varies quite significantly when you're FI.

I'll give you one current example:  I am currently PO'd at a client.  I went through a wall for them for months at a time over the past 2 years on a major project (very short version is we needed to work with another firm who represented a different party, that firm kept fucking everything up/making unnecessary changes, so I and others ended up repeatedly sacrificing significant weekend/vacation time to fix everything at the last minute -- and then we ended up not being able to bill a good chunk of that extra time because all those changes pushed us way over the amount the client had reserved for the work).  Client gave us some significant new work largely as a result of that prior job, because we do awesome work and are now the world's expert in one particularly geeky area.  And then two days ago we were told that we're splitting that new work with another firm, that we get to do the geeky part and the other firm gets everything else (so like 75% of what we were promised), and that we should meet to hash out the details of who does what.  It's not cost, which the client always claims to be sensitive to, because the other firm is BigLaw and has much higher hourly rates.  It's all political.  So my response to our internal team on this new matter was basically, "I'm out.  Y'all can do whatever you want about fighting for crumbs with this other firm if you want to.  I will be available to help on our 25% between the hours of 8-5 M-F." 

If I still needed a job, that's not the kind of issue that would really be worth changing firms, and I'd basically be stuck sucking up to that client and fighting for who gets more of the work so I could meet my billable hours.  Soooo much better to be able to decide I just don't care enough to jump through their hoops.

[Metalcat]

My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

So you took shit at work until you saved enough money to retire? Why not just find a different job?

Why would you assume that there is any job out there that doesn't involve some degree of shit?

If we’re talking “some degree” of shit now i think just living in the world gets you that. I mean you have to be able to deal with at least some degree of shit. Thats the ante-up…

If you got into a position at work however where you’re constantly taking shit snd there’s no end, you don’t need to be Financially Independent to job hunt.

Right.  But how aggressive you can be about the amount of shit you're willing to take, and the risk of another job falling through, varies quite significantly when you're FI.

I'll give you one current example:  I am currently PO'd at a client.  I went through a wall for them for months at a time over the past 2 years on a major project (very short version is we needed to work with another firm who represented a different party, that firm kept fucking everything up/making unnecessary changes, so I and others ended up repeatedly sacrificing significant weekend/vacation time to fix everything at the last minute -- and then we ended up not being able to bill a good chunk of that extra time because all those changes pushed us way over the amount the client had reserved for the work).  Client gave us some significant new work largely as a result of that prior job, because we do awesome work and are now the world's expert in one particularly geeky area.  And then two days ago we were told that we're splitting that new work with another firm, that we get to do the geeky part and the other firm gets everything else (so like 75% of what we were promised), and that we should meet to hash out the details of who does what.  It's not cost, which the client always claims to be sensitive to, because the other firm is BigLaw and has much higher hourly rates.  It's all political.  So my response to our internal team on this new matter was basically, "I'm out.  Y'all can do whatever you want about fighting for crumbs with this other firm if you want to.  I will be available to help on our 25% between the hours of 8-5 M-F." 

If I still needed a job, that's not the kind of issue that would really be worth changing firms, and I'd basically be stuck sucking up to that client and fighting for who gets more of the work so I could meet my billable hours.  Soooo much better to be able to decide I just don't care enough to jump through their hoops.

I have a really extreme version of this right now.

When I graduated with my first professional designation, I had hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt including a personal loan to an ex in-law, bad credit, a shitty apartment thanks to bad credit, and a car that was literally held together with duct tape and leaking oil everywhere.

I started that career under insane financial pressure and it guided so much of how I built my career and my professional identity. Ultra high performance and enormous financial success were paramount.

Now, many years later, I have a whole new professional designation, a solid NW, multiple properties, a perfectly good car, and a partner who still works and earns 6 figures.

I'm so acutely aware of how different the feelings are launching such a similar career in such a similar market.

In fact, I'm finding myself having to actively fight so many of the instincts that made me so successful the first time around because my definition of success this time is so different.

One of the key differences is that when you need/want a lot of money, making a lot of money is thrilling and satisfying in and of itself, so some work is fun largely because it's so profitable, but when profit is less exciting, so are some work elements.

[Ron Scott]

Then there are those from the McClelland school of thought who see human motivation in work as stemming from desires for money, power, and achievement, and the individual’s tendency to strongly favor 1 of these while being affected somewhat by each. It is a theory that is best considered for its utility than its truth.

I pity those whose dominant motivator isn’t achievement. Building and creating are the essence of humanity. The leader and her team should live to achieve, not to praise the leader.

Similarly, a person’s need for power is best funneled into planning, organizing, and directing others to achieve, not for personal aggrandizement.

Finally, money is best seen in terms of the degree of flexibility it provides in lives, and the choices it enables. It’s more about risk management and life options than “buying things” per se.

[twinstudy]

Then there are those from the McClelland school of thought who see human motivation in work as stemming from desires for money, power, and achievement, and the individual’s tendency to strongly favor 1 of these while being affected somewhat by each. It is a theory that is best considered for its utility than its truth.

I pity those whose dominant motivator isn’t achievement. Building and creating are the essence of humanity. The leader and her team should live to achieve, not to praise the leader.

Similarly, a person’s need for power is best funneled into planning, organizing, and directing others to achieve, not for personal aggrandizement.

Finally, money is best seen in terms of the degree of flexibility it provides in lives, and the choices it enables. It’s more about risk management and life options than “buying things” per se.

Wanting to earn more is completely compatible with achievement. I want to do a certain number of trial briefs (usually 2-3 big trials per month, 5-7 mediations and 4-5 pieces of paperwork will fill me up for an entire month). That work is always going to be there. Me having more financial power means that I can afford to drive a harder bargain, price myself into Veblen territory and take only the highest-paying briefs. This doesn't affect the level of achievement I reach in my career, unless you think chasing high-paying briefs necessarily means you're doing lesser work for some reason.

[Ron Scott]

Then there are those from the McClelland school of thought who see human motivation in work as stemming from desires for money, power, and achievement, and the individual’s tendency to strongly favor 1 of these while being affected somewhat by each. It is a theory that is best considered for its utility than its truth.

I pity those whose dominant motivator isn’t achievement. Building and creating are the essence of humanity. The leader and her team should live to achieve, not to praise the leader.

Similarly, a person’s need for power is best funneled into planning, organizing, and directing others to achieve, not for personal aggrandizement.

Finally, money is best seen in terms of the degree of flexibility it provides in lives, and the choices it enables. It’s more about risk management and life options than “buying things” per se.

Wanting to earn more is completely compatible with achievement. I want to do a certain number of trial briefs (usually 2-3 big trials per month, 5-7 mediations and 4-5 pieces of paperwork will fill me up for an entire month). That work is always going to be there. Me having more financial power means that I can afford to drive a harder bargain, price myself into Veblen territory and take only the highest-paying briefs. This doesn't affect the level of achievement I reach in my career, unless you think chasing high-paying briefs necessarily means you're doing lesser work for some reason.

Agree completely, especially for those who are selling their time. Solid FI is in itself an achievement.

Actually I misspoke above. McClelland’s motivational needs were achievement, power and affiliation. He’d see money as satisfying lower level needs on something like Maslow’s hierarchy but I think he'd agree that FI is a worthy achievement.

[Ron Scott]

My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

So you took shit at work until you saved enough money to retire? Why not just find a different job?

Why would you assume that there is any job out there that doesn't involve some degree of shit?

If we’re talking “some degree” of shit now i think just living in the world gets you that. I mean you have to be able to deal with at least some degree of shit. Thats the ante-up…

If you got into a position at work however where you’re constantly taking shit snd there’s no end, you don’t need to be Financially Independent to job hunt.

Right.  But how aggressive you can be about the amount of shit you're willing to take, and the risk of another job falling through, varies quite significantly when you're FI.

Common. People with valuable skills who get into an untenable situation at work can find decent employment without being truly Financially Independent—i.e., with enough wealth to live the rest of their lives without working at all. I’m sure it’s hard to job hop like this if you’re in debt and the kids need shoes, but with a solid emergency stash it’s certainly doable.

I think one of the most popular threads on this board is dedicated to this situation—about having FY. FY ain’t FI.

[SnipTheDog]

I truly have no more f*cks to give.