Author Topic: FiRED & not caring about what others think about us --> Road to being an A-Hole?  (Read 7809 times)

FIREin2018

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I FiRED in 2018 @ age 47.
I no longer care what others think of me because they are still working and i'm not.
But this video is mind opening to me:

Why Rich People Become A**holes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EHhFwGeQLc
Start @5:05 min mark

I've been a pushover most of my life.
When I FiRED, i started being more assertive. A few times, it was more like being aggressive especially to customer service people.
I chucked that up to going from one end (pushover) to the other (aggressive) and to just tone it back a little.

But from the above video, what if it wasn't that?
What if I started to lose my empathy of others?

Bear Stache

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To the OP, I don't know you at all, so my opinion is in no way directed at you personally. I believe, in general, that money just amplifies who you really are inside. If you are a naturally generous person, money can amplify that aspect of your personality. And if you are an asshole, then money can amplify that as well, by limiting the negative consequences of boorish actions that a poor person would face for the same behavior.

I find that alcohol has the same effect.... it brings out things in people that they normally keep buried. Give them a few drinks (or dollars) and those things just boogie out of the closet. Just my opinion. The fact that you are questioning your empathy tells me that you still have some.

vand

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I think the process of wealth building certainly changes you... that can be take the form of arrogance (usually in proportion with the speed you amassed it
 - maybe just due to being luckier), impatience and disdain when you perceive incompetence in others.

To build wealth you need to programme yourself in a certain way that gets things done, and empathy for others who don't quite have it as well figured out can be in short supply.

That said, I think it can also makes you more generous and understanding of shortfalls in others, too and want to help others toward some of the same outcomes. So, a mixed bag. but yes, it changes you.

edit: What Chelsea is describing in that video though, just sounds to me like old (or new) fashioned narcissistic behaviour from, essentially, bullies.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 06:01:49 PM by vand »

Ron Scott

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Over the years I’ve lived and worked in environments that had a very diverse mix of people, crossing various economic classes, nationalities/races, religions, political affiliations, you name it.

What I’ve found is that a given percentage of people are going to be assholes and there’s nothing that can be done about it. And that percentage is remarkably consistent across groups.

Taran Wanderer

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Being assertive and standing up for what’s right and high standards can be a good thing… as long as you’re helping people, not destroying them, in the process.

I was lucky years ago to take a short business trip with one of our company’s consultants.  He was about the age I am now, owner of his own company, and over the course of several days we interacted with various customer service people (clerks, flight attendents, waitstaff) as we traveled around.  He left every person he touched with a smile on their face after what was perhaps the best customer service interaction of their day.  I’m definitely not his level, but I try to be, not because I care what they think of me, but because we make the world a better place one positive interaction at a time.  If I’m FI, why shouldn’t I be the person to do that?

eyesonthehorizon

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What Bear Stache said, & this:

... If I’m FI, why shouldn’t I be the person to do that?

It’s a lot easier to be patient with the customer service rep when you have nowhere to be than when you’re trying to get something done over a half hour lunch break. Knowing they’re working - spending half their waking hours at a job which they’d likely rather quit - doesn’t make me care if they like me, but it does make me care that I’m not making that half of their day even worse.

Some people are just jerks deep down & having the ability to get away with not hiding it brings it to the surface. If you’re worried about it, it means you are capable of choosing not to act like that. It would be worthwhile to think about what made you feel aggressive towards the person just trying to get through the day job, so you can decide if those feelings were rational & how you’d rather respond next time, would be a good start with the bonus of making you a better person.

Most service people are used to jerks & many start interactions with “armor” on - either sullenness or fake friendliness. Being sincerely nice is a good way to become the person they drop that armor for to offer motivated help or free stuff, so it’s not all intangible moral rewards either. People like to reciprocate kindness.

Metalcat

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Being assertive does not equal being an asshole.

Being a pushover does not equal being kind.

Sometimes being assertive is actually the kindest thing you can do.

nereo

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Being assertive does not equal being an asshole.

Being a pushover does not equal being kind.

Sometimes being assertive is actually the kindest thing you can do.
Truth.
I wish someone had explained this to me when I was much younger.

reeshau

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What Bear Stache said, & this:

... If I’m FI, why shouldn’t I be the person to do that?

It’s a lot easier to be patient with the customer service rep when you have nowhere to be than when you’re trying to get something done over a half hour lunch break.

I fully agree with this.  Having the time to breathe, and not constantly being subjected to someone else's stopwatch has given me the space to be more open to other people's circumstances in the moment.  But I am also less tolerant of people choosing to be cruel.  So I am calmer in heavy traffic, polite by default (instead of having a difficult time compartmentalizing some stress of the day) and more intentional about what I do,  But I also avoid grocery shopping on the weekend, driving in  the early morning or late afternoon, and general involvement with dysfunctional organizations, even if their mission is one I support.

What's left are interactions I truly value, that are more likely to add to my joy than subtract from it.  When the inevitable difficult situation comes up, I have empathy left in the tank to deal with it more gracefully than when I was working.

Morning Glory

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It isn't hard to be polite and assertive at the same time. For example in a customer service context, wait your turn, offer a brief greeting ("good morning"),  say what you need ("can you help me resolve this mistake"), explain the problem without assigning blame (e.g. "it looks like I was charged for six widgets while I only received five"), avoid irrelevant information (such as how long you've been waiting or the fact your cousin is the ceo), throw in a few pleases and thank-you's, and always use a calm neutral voice.  Don't lean too far forward or roll your eyes or make other rude facial expressions. Don't do the nodding thing when you are trying to get someone to agree with you (i dont know if this is actually considered rude by most people or not but I personally find it annoying).  There are regional differences even within the same country about what is perceived as assertive vs aggressive when it comes to eye contact, personal space, or how elaborate the polite phrases need to be so you might want to watch some videos specific to where you live.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2024, 08:00:14 AM by Morning Glory »

ixtap

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I am less of an asshole than ever, as I am not constantly stressed and not responsible for herding cats. Pretty sure one of my husband's friends thinks I am an asshole but that it because I think he is an asshole and my husband can't just accept that he is allowed to have that friend without forcing me to have a close relationship with him.

Taran Wanderer

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@eyesonthehorizon , it’s not that in the past I was a jerk, it’s more that I was only trying to be efficient. If someone had 20 people in line, that’s probably fine, but if I’m the only one there, a few extra seconds for enhanced kindness is better.

Example:  a couple of years ago we were returning to the Honolulu airport in our rental car. We had a leftover six-pack with us. I could have left it at the house or thrown it away, but I thought I’d find someone who might want it. We didn’t see any likely recipients at the beaches along the road. When we got to the airport, the rental car attendant was delighted.  The previous returner wa a big jerk, and she was at her wit’s end. Instead of remembering the big jerk, perhaps she remembered the kindness and the free beer.

Usually, though, it’s just basic kindness - how’s your day? I like your hair.  Etc.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2024, 10:07:21 PM by Taran Wanderer »

pdxvandal

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It's bad karma to treat customer-service pros or servers like lesser people. At the grocery store, I'll often glance at the clerk's nametag and actually thank them using their name, or "have a great weekend, Eric" or similar. I personally believe it makes their day incrementally better. It seems simple, but I've noticed it's extremely rare behavior by other customers. These folks and phone customer service reps are in lower-wage jobs and have to deal with a-holes every single day. I've been on the other side of that as well, and never would want to treat people that way.

eyesonthehorizon

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@Taran Wanderer - I didn’t get the impression you were being a jerk, that part was expanding on your point & addressed to FIREin2018 - describing one’s own behavior as “aggressive” as OP did usually means being fairly pushy, but being capable of being worried about it that means being capable of choosing to do better than a lot of people, so I wanted to emphasize we are exactly the people who should be best-positioned to uphold those standards thanks to eight hours fewer of daily tedious bullshit.

Anyone who hasn’t worked a service job would surprised how much impact it leaves just simply not blaming the service worker for company mistakes & not insulting them or treating them as subhuman. If you say you’re in a hurry with a mildly apologetic tone that can also be a human connection even while it speeds up the interaction.

I have also worked service jobs & as pdxvandal said it’s a daily misery dealing with jerks. There are a lot of people whose enjoyment of receiving service is the sense that they have bought the right to bully someone. Just being treated like a peer was the sweet spot - I personally didn’t get much out of having my name used, & on the other side I HATE it when customer service reps are trained to use my name in sandwiches on every statement, but I suspect that varies & don’t comment on it if it happens.

@reeshau - the other side, about having a shorter tolerance for cruelty or bad behavior is something I’ve experienced too. I don’t have to care about ruffling feathers when demanding civility, so I do it much more often.

Dr. Pepper

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I would say much of it comes down to having respect for other people. You can have some distance from what opinions others have on your own perspective and still respect them. If you respect someone your not going to act like an asshole.

clarkfan1979

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It isn't hard to be polite and assertive at the same time. For example in a customer service context, wait your turn, offer a brief greeting ("good morning"),  say what you need ("can you help me resolve this mistake"), explain the problem without assigning blame (e.g. "it looks like I was charged for six widgets while I only received five"), avoid irrelevant information (such as how long you've been waiting or the fact your cousin is the ceo), throw in a few pleases and thank-you's, and always use a calm neutral voice.  Don't lean too far forward or roll your eyes or make other rude facial expressions. Don't do the nodding thing when you are trying to get someone to agree with you (i dont know if this is actually considered rude by most people or not but I personally find it annoying).  There are regional differences even within the same country about what is perceived as assertive vs aggressive when it comes to eye contact, personal space, or how elaborate the polite phrases need to be so you might want to watch some videos specific to where you live.

I think how long you have been waiting is relevant and can be worth mentioning. Just don't raise your voice or blame anyone when you tell them how long you have been waiting. Sometimes customers get lost in the shuffle and companies want to help customers that have been waiting longer. We were quoted 15 minutes for a table for breakfast and it took 1 hour. We told the manager. We didn't yell. We were nice about it. He comped our breakfast.     

Taran Wanderer

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I would say much of it comes down to having respect for other people. You can have some distance from what opinions others have on your own perspective and still respect them. If you respect someone your not going to act like an asshole.

You just hit the key word - RESPECT.  Like today I was mowing the soccer field, and I needed to go along the sidewalk. I double-checked, and a guy was on a bicycle coming toward me.  I nodded at him, he nodded at me, and I waited for him to pass.  I know that’s off-topic, but the basic concept of respect is that I see you, I acknowledge you, and I treat you with reserve and in a way I would like to be treated.  The world could use more of this in so many ways.

Taran Wanderer

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@eyesonthehorizon - I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, but by aiming too much for efficiency, maybe I was achieving that anyway!

Arbitrage

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I didn't watch the video, but will respond to (what I presume is) the concept.

I find the opposite for myself, and others who know me have commented on the same.  Now that I'm coast-FIREd, it's true that I don't care much what others think of me, to a reasonable extent.  I am who I am, and some of that results in peculiar choices, at least to the 'normal' American mind. 

Here's the thing, though - being who I want to be, and doing what I want to do, leaves me very easygoing and carefree.  I brush off things that annoy many other people, and would've annoyed the past version of me.  Now that I'm not spending nearly all day, every day working/commuting, and just surviving on the leftover scraps; I've got time to deal with the irritations of everyday life.  I've got the savings and financial cushion to deal with the unexpected.  Why get so worked up?  I've got it good. 

ChpBstrd

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The video focused more on people who grew up rich in an isolating environment where there were few people to feel empathy with and less parental involvement. So unless you were raised by a nanny and went to a boarding school, there's probably nothing to worry about from this angle.

As a FIRE-ee though, your life consists of a lot less working (coooperation) as opposed to consuming (competition). When making a living depended upon finding a way to cooperate with coworkers, you were getting lots of exercise for your empathy muscle. You were of course consuming too, but there was a balance between cooperation and competition. Now it's only consuming/competing.

If you want to ensure you don't become an asshole, consider volunteering to work with a secular nonprofit that is meaningful to you, such as the Red Cross or your local homeless aid group. This is essentially a gym for building empathy muscles, and you will be working among other... "bodybuilders" ...to stretch the metaphor as far as it'll go.

Villanelle

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Im sorta, mostly FIREd and while I certainly get frustrated and lose my temper at times, or find the end of my patience, time makes a big difference.  If I'm on hold for 45 minutes, I'm not thinking, "this is basically the entire free part of my evening".  If service at a restaurant is slow, I'm not thinking about the list of chores that has to be crammed into the weekend, and how that extra 30 minutes sitting at the table means that I'm probably not going to get to taking the shower doors off and giving them a good scrub. 

And if someone is rude to me, I'm starting at a more relaxed place so it doesn't make me nearly as angry.  Time buys me the ability to be more considerate, compassionate, empathetic, and forgiving. 

Laura33

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I can see a bunch of reasons for this; who knows whether any of them are true, or to what extent.

-- Confirmation bias, i.e., we expect rich people to be assholes, so we notice when they are. 

-- When you've got way more financial capital than you need, you don't need social capital (i.e., other people) as much, so you don't put as much effort into worrying about what other people think or feel. 

-- Selection bias, i.e., the business world tends to reward single-minded determination, not empathy, so an asshole is more likely to become ridiculously wealthy than a nice person. 

-- Corollary to selection bias:  an asshole is more likely to draw attention than a nice, empathetic person, so you notice the rich asshole more than you notice all the normal non-assholes around you, who could also be rich.

-- Hedonic adaptation and the happiness equation.  Happiness:  Reality - expectations > 0.  When you're rich, you get used to having everything you want, when you want it, so you have a higher baseline expectation for how you will be treated.  So when you aren't treated like you're special, you are disappointed and upset in a situation where most people would shrug it off.  And of course you're surrounded by other rich people, so you don't have anyone to provide a reality check that you're being an asshole.

Small example of that last one:  my mom is absolutely not an asshole.  But she has traveled so much she's Marriott super-elite, and they always give her like the Presidential suite.  I still remember one night she got stuck in a normal room, and BOY was she bitching to me about it.  Now, like I said, she's not an asshole, so she didn't take it out on the hotel staff or anything (she just vented to me).  But it struck me, because she sounded like an entitled jerk, which is so different than the way she normally is -- and over something that really didn't even matter.  Because it wasn't about the room; it was about how Marriott always made her feel special, so not getting the treatment she had come to expect really upset her.

FIREin2018

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I can see a bunch of reasons for this; who knows whether any of them are true, or to what extent.

-- When you've got way more financial capital than you need, you don't need social capital (i.e., other people) as much, so you don't put as much effort into worrying about what other people think or feel. 
That was my thinking shortly before i Fired.
i could just hire someone to do stuff i need.
Drop off at airport: uber
buy something too big for my car: pay the $9.99 delivery charge to my house
etc

But i found more enjoyment in friends helping me and me buying them lunch/dinner afterwards

Ron Scott

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To the OP, I don't know you at all, so my opinion is in no way directed at you personally. I believe, in general, that money just amplifies who you really are inside.

My experience is different.

I grew up poor and now have money. So i have a mix of poor, middle-class, and wealthy friends and relatives.

I find that every economic class has just about the same % of assholes. That holds true—IMO, but I do focus on this—for races, nationalities, religions, gender, and sexual persuasion.

Assholes seem to me to be equally distributed.

YMMV.

twinstudy

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I don't think I'd be rude to a server because i do or don't have money. Ultimately it's not money which rules that transaction. A server isn't going to bring out my food faster because I wave $50 in his/her face. It's a reciprocal relationship based on courtesy.

That said, not all reciprocal relationships are based on courtesy. Some are based on money. And as I get more money and more leverage I sure as hell become more assertive. For instance I have a decent clientele these days so I aggressively put up my fees. I put up fees by 4% every 6 months and have done so for the last 8 years. Occasionally (only rarely) I get an enquiry about whether I can reduce my fees. I say no, and anyone who acts difficult about it gets an even higher asking price next time to dissuade cheapos from trying to work with me. I don't see this as being an arsehole, even though it certainly is me taking advantage of economic power.

I do the same with all financial transactions - setting my rent, deciding if I want to buy a car or a watch, etc. To me that's not being an arsehole. That's just being smart with money. The more money you have the more financial power you wield.

roomtempmayo

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We have several successful retired couples on our block.  They're all 70-80 or so, and they all did very well professionally.  They raised their kids together, and by all accounts were friends.

I've always been puzzled about why they no longer spend any time together.  The best I've been able to triangulate is that once they retired they no longer felt obliged to maintain the social niceties that make relationships work.  They lost their filters.  And now they've all offended one another over petty issues and want nothing to do with each other.

One thing workplaces do for us is reinforce basic social norms.  I think lots of people kind of stop putting in social effort after retirement, and it has a way of torching their relationships.  It turns out nobody really wants to spend time with someone who says exactly what they're thinking all the time.

reeshau

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That's an interesting observation, @roomtempmayo .  We have similar demographics: among the 13 houses on our street, we have four retired couples, (other than us) 3 of which are original to the neighborhood, from 1990.  They get along quite well.  In fact, the private discussions we have had is that the "nosy neighbor" on our block has mellowed with age, which has improved relations.  I always thought of it as a contribution by the reduction of pressures in their lives, from work and from kids.  But I supposed it could go either way, depending on just how compatible they really were.

spartana

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^^^ That might also be age-related. For the most part younger retirees couples are probably off doing things that expend a lot of energy both physical and mental. Some activities they do together and some apart and so there's often separation during a good part of each day.  That may make their social lives better and appreciation for each other better too. I'm an introvert and need lots of "me" time.  I'm also Fired,  as is my partner, but we're both very active seperatly as well as together so we don't actually get annoyed or try kill each other ;-). Maybe the older couples find they have neither shared or separate activities once they retire.

Taran Wanderer

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Spartana, I started reading it that way (that the two individuals in each couple don’t do anything together anymore), but then I thought it was intended to mean that the couples don’t do things together anymore even though they’re the same age and had kids of the same age who were raised together (wandered among the houses).  I’m curious about which it is because we (DW and I) don’t have other couples on our block like this, but we do have kids that will eventually leave the nest (hopefully), so it’s somewhat relevant.

reeshau

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Right--I meant the several couples socializing together, in contrast to @roomtempmayo 's neighborhood, rather than relations between the couple.

spartana

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Right--I meant the several couples socializing together, in contrast to @roomtempmayo 's neighborhood, rather than relations between the couple.
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't really hang out with my neighbors even though they were all very nice and friendly. That's probably because I lived in a large Asian American community and it was a bit "clannish" (I'm white) with some language and cultural barriers with most  living in large family groups. But mainly because I was that (apparently miserable) single childless crazy cat lady J.D. Vance warned you about  ;-).

NorthernIkigai

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We have several successful retired couples on our block.  They're all 70-80 or so, and they all did very well professionally.  They raised their kids together, and by all accounts were friends.

I've always been puzzled about why they no longer spend any time together.  The best I've been able to triangulate is that once they retired they no longer felt obliged to maintain the social niceties that make relationships work.  They lost their filters.  And now they've all offended one another over petty issues and want nothing to do with each other.

One thing workplaces do for us is reinforce basic social norms.  I think lots of people kind of stop putting in social effort after retirement, and it has a way of torching their relationships.  It turns out nobody really wants to spend time with someone who says exactly what they're thinking all the time.

I'm in the phase of life where you mostly end up spending time with your kids' friends' parents. It's brought a lot of new people into my life, some of whom are truly my friends. But some are just people who are nice enough to hang out with because of the kids... but whom I don't expect to see much of if/when the kids aren't in touch anymore (because of school choices, growing up and moving away, juts growing apart, etc.).

Maybe these people were previously just friendly neighbours whose kids were friends, rather than actual friends with each other?

MMMarbleheader

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I feel like it would give me more time to be nice and mean?

On the mean side, I would 100% dig in and sue someone who screwed me over (aka a contractor) if I had time. If I was still working I would have to evaluate the time spend doing it, the cost, and how much money I would be out. But when I am FIRE? I will 100% do a public service for the rest of the working public and go after a scam artist.

Much Fishing to Do

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So my dad had a theory people are genetically set at a certain level of being aggravated by things.  Everyone's paid work usually gives them plenty of easy targets for this frustration.  But once people retire it might then be directed to spouses, kids, friends, neighbors, the public in general and even the sky if that is all that is left to shake your old man fist at.....This obviously has nothing to do with FI or RE, but just retirement in general.

ChpBstrd

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As people in the US in the early 21st century get older, they become increasingly different from one another.

Walk into a preschool classroom and you'll notice how similar all the kids are. Any one of them can play with any other of them, regardless of gender, skin color, family wealth, family religion/politics etc. While they have the beginnings of distinct personalities, they do not yet know what specific things they like or dislike, have little or no personal baggage, have not yet learned to dislike whole categories of other people, do not understand religion beyond Santa Claus, have only the earliest understanding of gender roles, and have no political opinions.

By middle school, cliques have formed around gender, race, religion, fashion, and sports. The pool of people sufficiently like oneself to befriend might be a couple dozen in a school with hundreds of kids. The shared experiences of growing up together are still present, as is a shared fun-loving attitude, but the gaps between people have widened.

By adulthood, the divisive categories expand to include politics, socioeconomic status, career factors, entertainment preferences, preferences such as urban/rural lifestyles, hobbies, and so on. The pool of potential friends is spreadsheet-filtered down to virtually nobody. A Texas A&M fan cannot be friends with an Alabama Crimson Tide fan, even if neither went to those schools. A Ford truck guy can't help but look down upon a Chevy truck guy. The obese have obese friends, and the skinny have skinny friends. Vegans are not invited to their neighbors' barbecue. Pentecostals can't tolerate Episcopalians. Parties don't happen because everyone hates everyone else's favorite genre of music. Don't even mention politics.

Also, adults tend to blame everyone else for being too different from themselves. We see it as either foolish or morally wrong to be different than ourselves. Think through all the examples.

By retirement, most people are almost completely defined by the ideas and identities they have consumed in the past. The sole unifying factor for adults in modern American culture is that we can generally agree on the high value of desirable things like luxury vehicles, iphones, giant 5k televisions, big expensive houses, vacations, etc. Most also agree that high-paying jobs, no matter how meaningless or destructive, are better than low-paying jobs, no matter how important or constructive. Thus, consumerism/careerism is the last thread that most Americans have in common with one another. Consumerism funds media, and thus media comes to resemble propaganda promoting the consumerist/careerist promise to happiness and connection.

But consumerism/careerism also tears us apart, because there are so many niche products, services, and ideas that we each took a one-in-a-million path in our identity formation history, ending up in a place where we are extremely different than any of our peers, who themselves are radically different than anyone else. Compare modern life to life hundreds of years ago, when people had a lot more in common thanks to a lack of products, services, and ideas.

When we choose to live in a certain housing product, wear certain clothing products, listen to certain music products, watch certain TV or movie products, drive certain transportation products, eat certain food products, enjoy certain service products, subscribe to certain media, and adopt certain political views, we add layer after layer of difference between ourselves and others. As we become more and more different over time, we get out of touch with old friends with whom we previously had a lot in common, and felt a lot of loyalty toward. 

Post-retirement life cannot resemble the carefree days of childhood friends and family connection because of who we became over time, and how different that is from everyone else. I suppose one could work toward shedding as many layers as possible, in an attempt to have more in common with other people and to resemble a child again in our attitudes and willingness to connect. One could divest themself of most material possessions, drop their beliefs about religion or politics, open their mind to the appeal of previously despised aesthetics, and to appreciate others for the innocent games and giggles they can enjoy together rather than what the other person could do for us professionally or sexually.

However, this is all easier said than done. We intuitively resist the loss of our identities and deepest values/beliefs. We cannot forget the things which make us fearful or inspired. We have a hard time choosing to consume almost nothing when we've devoted our whole lives toward consuming more, or else we'd have to view our past as a waste. It is extremely hard to become indifferent to politics, religion, aesthetics, race, gender, wealth, luxury, or the things which aggravate us. Plus, we cannot divest ourselves of sexual urges, the aches and pains of old age, or our less-plastic neurology. There is no way to again become as equal, as open, or as energetic as the preschoolers.

Yet the cultural status quo is the path to decades of bitterness and loneliness as a retiree - too different from anyone else to have anything in common, or too focused on the trappings of consumption to care about anyone else. This is how so many people end up during the last decades of their lives, tragically trying to fill the void with things they shop for or screens they watch. While it may be impossible to shed all the insulating layers of difference with others, perhaps it is a worthwhile pursuit anyway. The catch is finding other people willing to do the same.

nereo

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Walk into a preschool classroom and you'll notice how similar all the kids are. Any one of them can play with any other of them…

By middle school, cliques have formed …

Meh - when you  fundamentally disagree with the first few parapraphs it’s harder to comment on the broader points. In pre-school most kids aren’t really playing with each other at all, but engaging in “parallel play”. It’s not that they get along with everyone so much as they are so self-centered they don’t fully notice or care who is right next to them, and they aren’t interacting. By kindergarten that starts to shift, but cliques form way, way earlier than middle school. By first grade most kids will have formed groups, with gender a frequent divider, as well as activity (eg the active kids form different groups than the artistic ones). Kids also start identifying their peers by race in kindergarten or first year, and it’s pretty common for mixed race cohorts to have largely self segregated by race by third grade. All the stereotypical cliques are easily apparent long before elementary school ends, usually around age 10.

The fact that we assume our young kids frolic in this utopian land where bigotry doesn’t permeate compoubdscthe problem. A lot of parents can’t or won’t talk about race with their 6 year old even though s/he already recognizes race. Ditto for gender, economic & social status and disabilities. This vacuum just allows the worst traits to be perpetuated.

NorthernIkigai

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I do agree with a lot of ChpBstrd’s post, and recognise a lot of this stratification in my life as having happened as late as during my 30s and 40.

But I don’t think it’s as hard to get past it as described. I have two main organised hobbies: In one, I interact mostly with (actual old age) pensioners, and in the other with people aged between 10 and 80. Both involve a strong sense of community, but with low thresholds. I don’t think I know many of the political views or economic situations of my friends from these groups — we just enjoy our hobby together. It’s possible to enjoy the company and friendship of people who are not very similar to you, even if you’re old and set in your ways, as long as you make a bit of an effort to find out what you like and find other people who also like doing it.

VanillaGorilla

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Yet the cultural status quo is the path to decades of bitterness and loneliness as a retiree - too different from anyone else to have anything in common, or too focused on the trappings of consumption to care about anyone else. This is how so many people end up during the last decades of their lives, tragically trying to fill the void with things they shop for or screens they watch. While it may be impossible to shed all the insulating layers of difference with others, perhaps it is a worthwhile pursuit anyway. The catch is finding other people willing to do the same.
Maybe go outside, touch the grass. Why are you so sad and disappointed with everything?

I don't think that more resources lead to worse behavior - I think the opposite is true. When resources are scarce people are forced to fight over them. When resources are abundant people can be more generous and more peaceful. Human history seems to show that the wealthier a society becomes the more peaceful it becomes.

If you're FI you're less likely to be a worrywart at work. You're less likely to tear down coworkers trying to get a raise or a promotion. You're more likely to have healthy boundaries and a better work/whatever/life balance. If you have money you're less likely to squabble with your spouse over discretionary spending. You feel secure and confident and accomplished and less likely to make status-driven decisions that then stress you out, like buying too many toys that you then struggle to pay for.

I also suggest that the better your life becomes the more generous and forgiving you become to people less fortunate, capable, skilled, and lucky than yourself, as you start recognizing the privileges you've benefitted from.

Laura33

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We intuitively resist the loss of our identities and deepest values/beliefs. We cannot forget the things which make us fearful or inspired. We have a hard time choosing to consume almost nothing when we've devoted our whole lives toward consuming more, or else we'd have to view our past as a waste. It is extremely hard to become indifferent to politics, religion, aesthetics, race, gender, wealth, luxury, or the things which aggravate us. Plus, we cannot divest ourselves of sexual urges, the aches and pains of old age, or our less-plastic neurology. There is no way to again become as equal, as open, or as energetic as the preschoolers.


This is called maturity.  Or wisdom.  Your choice.

Yes, most of our early lives is figuring out who we are and where we fit in and what we value.  But there is often not so much perspective about which of those values/tribal markers actually matter and which are just sort of artificial constructs that don't necessarily matter much in the big picture.  As you get older and wiser, you realize that, yes, you do have some deep values/beliefs that you are not willing to walk away from -- but all of your beliefs don't necessarily fall into that category. 

The problem is that most of us learn that through experience.  You can learn that a luxury lifestyle isn't necessary to be happy if you're forced to live without one.  You can learn that [Yankees/Southerners] are decent people if you live in the [North/South] for some period of time.  You can learn that [insert race/religion/gender/orientation/etc.] are decent people if you go to school/work/live side-by-side with them. 

And yet we live in a world of abundance that is structured in a way that keeps most of us separate from anyone substantially different.  Zoning rules make for homogenous neighborhoods; the cost of those homes, the way public schools are funded, and a very long history of redlining and excluding non-WASPs, means that those non-WASPs remain segregated from the wealthier/safer neighborhoods, the better schools, and the longer-term opportunities that are strongly associated with those backgrounds.  We play zero-sum games: we spend years on the selective college chase, where schools have 3% acceptance rates, and my kid getting in means yours is rejected -- and even more, participating in that game is viewed as the mark of a good parent. 

Furthermore, many of the hardships that previously forced people to learn to live/work together no longer exist.  Think WWII -- the men go to the battlefront, the women go to the factories, and very different people have to learn to work together both because of sheer need and because they shared a more powerful common cause.  Conversely, the grievances that we hold against The Others now have potentially eternal voice -- we can communicate across the globe with others who share the same grievances, so instead of eventually getting tired of ourselves or having to figure out how to get over it and get on with our lives, we get ongoing validation that we're right to be aggrieved. 

In short, we are surrounded by more abundance than any society ever in recorded history.  And yet we've chosen to respond to that by voluntarily pitting ourselves against each other, slicing and dicing ourselves into smaller and smaller tribes, each of which needs to fight for its own share of the giant pie.  We are choosing to divide and fight, rather than unify and cooperate.

tl;dr:  a major part of growing up is being forced to suck it up, accept stuff you don't like, get on with life, and maybe in the end realize that the world didn't fall apart, so maybe whatever that thing was you were so worked up about didn't really matter quite as much as you thought it did at the time.  Our current society and culture is fundamentally set up in a way that protects us from that sort of forced proximity and cooperation with The Others, and in fact gives us outlets to support eternal grievances.  And so we get older and older, without necessarily gaining the maturity and wisdom that we'd expect to come along with it.

[And yes, massive oversimplification.  Lord knows there have always been, and will always be, crotchety, bigoted old men who never got over themselves.  The difference is that in 1950, they were limited to their front porch and maybe the local coffee shop.]

simonsez

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As people in the US in the early 21st century get older, they become increasingly different from one another.
Since century is the measuring stick being referenced, I'd have to disagree but to be fair my focus is more of the 10,000 foot view.  Perhaps calling it a disagreement is not the right term (although I do disagree with a ton of the intolerance you reference - e.g. the Aggie and Crimson Tide person not getting along is the vocal minority rather than the normal college/sporting/fandom experience in my view) but rather a difference in how we choose to compare.

We know what people live like now (and how disparate that can be if you really zoom in) but I think there is a major recall bias with regard to just how different people's lives were across US society in centuries past when viewed at a macro level.  The % of non-orphans, literacy rate, % with non-dirt floors, % with running water, % with access to owning land, % with access to vote, % with access to medicines and vaccines, % with telecommunications device, % of people that retire at some point, freedom to marry who you want, infant/maternal mortality rates, life expectancy and the % who die at elderly ages, etc. - have all rectangularized with each passing century as opposed to growing apart.

People stratify as they get older and wealthier, no doubt, but I think that's more or less always been the case and the goalposts (of the haves and the have nots) have narrowed across a variety of quality of life measures (with additional measures to account for further innovation and change cropping up all the time).  This is perhaps not as fast as people in certain groups would like/deserve and there is still plenty of room for improvement.  I don't know, I look at the way humans live - including the innocent youngins - and don't really see as much difference compared to the past.

We like what we like and live accordingly and have more freedom than ever but the changes that stem from our consumption choices are overstated IMO when talking about how different we are let alone to the "utopian preK life".  For the most part, we all shit in toilets with roofs over our heads and don't die of infections/infectious diseases no matter your net worth or where you vacation or what type of vehicle you're transported by.  Going back in time, I don't think that's the case.  We may have more leisure time and resources in this century and what we choose to do with our leisure time can vary more than ever but seems to gloss over all the societal, political, and technological changes to make the minimum and median standards of living better than ever.  Onward and upward a century at a time.

Ron Scott

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My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

ChpBstrd

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Yet the cultural status quo is the path to decades of bitterness and loneliness as a retiree - too different from anyone else to have anything in common, or too focused on the trappings of consumption to care about anyone else. This is how so many people end up during the last decades of their lives, tragically trying to fill the void with things they shop for or screens they watch. While it may be impossible to shed all the insulating layers of difference with others, perhaps it is a worthwhile pursuit anyway. The catch is finding other people willing to do the same.
Maybe go outside, touch the grass. Why are you so sad and disappointed with everything?

I don't think that more resources lead to worse behavior - I think the opposite is true. When resources are scarce people are forced to fight over them. When resources are abundant people can be more generous and more peaceful. Human history seems to show that the wealthier a society becomes the more peaceful it becomes.
As people in the US in the early 21st century get older, they become increasingly different from one another.
We know what people live like now (and how disparate that can be if you really zoom in) but I think there is a major recall bias with regard to just how different people's lives were across US society in centuries past when viewed at a macro level.  The % of non-orphans, literacy rate, % with non-dirt floors, % with running water, % with access to owning land, % with access to vote, % with access to medicines and vaccines, % with telecommunications device, % of people that retire at some point, freedom to marry who you want, infant/maternal mortality rates, life expectancy and the % who die at elderly ages, etc. - have all rectangularized with each passing century as opposed to growing apart.

People stratify as they get older and wealthier, no doubt, but I think that's more or less always been the case and the goalposts (of the haves and the have nots) have narrowed across a variety of quality of life measures (with additional measures to account for further innovation and change cropping up all the time).  This is perhaps not as fast as people in certain groups would like/deserve and there is still plenty of room for improvement.  I don't know, I look at the way humans live - including the innocent youngins - and don't really see as much difference compared to the past.

We like what we like and live accordingly and have more freedom than ever but the changes that stem from our consumption choices are overstated IMO when talking about how different we are let alone to the "utopian preK life".  For the most part, we all shit in toilets with roofs over our heads and don't die of infections/infectious diseases no matter your net worth or where you vacation or what type of vehicle you're transported by.  Going back in time, I don't think that's the case.  We may have more leisure time and resources in this century and what we choose to do with our leisure time can vary more than ever but seems to gloss over all the societal, political, and technological changes to make the minimum and median standards of living better than ever.  Onward and upward a century at a time.

To clarify, I'm trying my best not to fall into this groove and become like the isolated, semi-intolerant retirees I see around me, who seem to have difficulty relating to anyone who has made different consumption choices. I have actually developed a preference for having a diverse friend group, because such a life leads to more of the insights I appreciate most. Also, there is no other way; if one is to have very many friends at all, one will have to learn to tolerate or even appreciate their different choices, viewpoints, and preferences! So I'm not advocating a focus on these tiny details and/or living a life of misery.

2nd point: I'm not so much talking about resource surpluses or scarcity. I'm talking about the proliferation of choices we have in the marketplaces for goods, services, and ideas. For people with all the wealth and resources they need, life today offers so many more ways to be than, say, 100 years ago. Instead of five brands of beer or toothpaste or clothes or cars, we have thousands of each. The same could be said about ideas, ideologies, religions, styles/fashions, musical/artistic genres, housing styles and places, career choices, etc. Usually the proliferation of choice is talked about in terms of how mentally taxing it is to buy something as simple as ground coffee. But I think the proliferation of choices has led to a proliferation of lifestyles that has had an isolating effect. As the Rolling Stones foresaw, "...he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me."

The truth is, most people only socialize with others who have made most of the same consumption choices.

Perhaps in the bigger picture, we'd have long ago hit a Keynesian limit on the economy's ability to employ everyone with highly efficient systems had we not created all these niches and new demand for products that differentiate and stratify people in comparison to others. Maybe if we all only consumed what we needed from the cheapest good-enough-quality producer, our world would consist of a few monopolies and lots of people out of work, and hence resource scarcity. But that economic vision is a work of fantasy compared to the reality outside. Fortunately, individuals can choose to live in a simpler, more tolerant way to obtain all the resources they need while not isolating themselves in the trap of consumerist isolation.

twinstudy

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My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

Metalcat

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My feeling is that if achieving financial success, like FI, “changes you” in regard to how you interact with others, you need to work on yourself.

Financial independence should change the way you interact with others. You no longer have to take any shit. You can do things that optimise financial outcomes (like being extremely selective with what work/clients you take on) and you can do things that others don't have the option of doing (like enforcing your rights at work without slinking away due to fear of being fired).

Also, change is often a very good thing.

My job is literally to help people change in response to how things emotionally impact them, and having enormous financial security is a very normal thing to have a strong emotional reaction to and it wouldn't be at all unreasonable to experience transformational change as a result.

Maybe not everyone, a lot of people don't change very much, but other people are highly responsive to altered circumstances.

Metalcat

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So my dad had a theory people are genetically set at a certain level of being aggravated by things.  Everyone's paid work usually gives them plenty of easy targets for this frustration.  But once people retire it might then be directed to spouses, kids, friends, neighbors, the public in general and even the sky if that is all that is left to shake your old man fist at.....This obviously has nothing to do with FI or RE, but just retirement in general.

It really depends on what the source of their aggravation is and why they struggle to overcome it.

If exhaustion or pain are a major source of aggravation and someone's job involves a lot of exhaustion and pain, their baseline aggravation can radically change with the removal of that job.

ie: me, that was me, I was aggravated all the time my last year of work, and then I retired and became super mellow

Taran Wanderer

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Ha ha, is that why your posts are less biting? Still ruthlessly reasoned and detailed, but they seem to be more even keel and thoughtful. I’m specifically thinking of the recent Olympics information. Very informative, by the way.

Metalcat

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Ha ha, is that why your posts are less biting? Still ruthlessly reasoned and detailed, but they seem to be more even keel and thoughtful. I’m specifically thinking of the recent Olympics information. Very informative, by the way.

Could be, although I retired quite awhile ago, not sure how recent the change in tone was.

It's more that I retrained as a therapist and it's pretty fundamentally altered how I understand why people behave the way that they do.

There's a whole lot of "ohhh...yeah, I see what's happening here..."

clarkfan1979

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I think it's possible to be assertive and polite at the same time, even if the other person is not. I was buying tile at Home Depot in Lihue, HI (Kauai). The customer service there is really bad because it's the only Home Depot on the island. Your choices for home improvement are very limited.

I checked out in the self-service line with tile and was asked if I wanted help loading the tile. I politely said, "No Thanks". The employee then reminded me that I can park in the contractor area and I replied, "Thank you, I'm parked in the area already." They then asked, "Oh cool, where is your truck?" I said, "I don't have a truck, it's the minivan right there." They then went out of their way to tell me that it's a bad idea to haul tile in anything that it's a truck. The load for my minivan is 1400 pounds and I had about 1000 pounds of tile. They also asked how far I was driving and I told them Koloa, which is about 12 miles. It's difficult for me to remember the exact language, but they were being disrespectful and basically calling me an idiot. When I was younger and less financial success, I might have argued and justified my position. However, I didn't waste my time, I just smiled and moved on with my life.

Part of the disagreement is the irrational truck culture that exists. If you haul something, it's got to be a truck, right? It's especially bad on Kauai. Many young adults on Kauai have expensive trucks and struggle to pay rent and have zero chance of buying a house. My internal thoughts were, I'm driving my $3000 minivan to lay some tile at my 1.3 million rental/vacation house and you are making fun of me for not owning a truck? I actually felt sorry for them that they have no clue what they are talking about and giving unsolicited bad advice to people.

I did have a second experience of hauling a refrigerator in my minivan from Home Depot and it was a good experience. I was expecting the workers to give me a hard time because I didn't have a truck. They didn't They were cool with the minivan. So, it's not everyone. It's just a small number of people who have the urge to tell people what to do, even though they don't know what they are talking about. Don't let them ruin your day.     

EscapeVelocity2020

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I FiRED in 2018 @ age 47.
I no longer care what others think of me because they are still working and i'm not.
...

Just this opening made me think you were a bit of an 'I'm better than all of you' a-hole.  What is it about people that are still employed that immediately makes you think they are inferior?  You never know what others have gone through or are going through - nowadays many people have been impacted negatively by a health issue and/or related costs.

Also, echoing what others have said, once I was content in my FI status, I've found it much easier to be more generous and patient with other people.  I am more self-confident and practice gratitude regularly, while also continuing to work on myself (existing higher on that pyramid thingie).  It's a pretty good recipe for being a person that is, if nothing else, not as a-hole-ish as many others.

spartana

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I FiRED in 2018 @ age 47.
I no longer care what others think of me because they are still working and i'm not.
...

Just this opening made me think you were a bit of an 'I'm better than all of you' a-hole.  What is it about people that are still employed that immediately makes you think they are inferior?  You never know what others have gone through or are going through - nowadays many people have been impacted negatively by a health issue and/or related costs.

Also, echoing what others have said, once I was content in my FI status, I've found it much easier to be more generous and patient with other people.  I am more self-confident and practice gratitude regularly, while also continuing to work on myself (existing higher on that pyramid thingie).  It's a pretty good recipe for being a person that is, if nothing else, not as a-hole-ish as many others.
Agreed. I first had that "WTF?" moment reading that. I mean there are many people out there working their butt off to feed, clothe and shelter their kids and, often due to no fault of their own, struggling to get by and the OP finds that a reason to be mean? I found that being FI is a reason to be kinder and to find gratitude and appreciation for working people not to grind them under your heels.

Although I'll admit that I'm sometimes an A* hole to high earning FI/RE people due to what I sometimes see as too much lack of appreciation for what they have (too much whining LOL) but I generally try to be kind to everyone and don't see how being FIREd (which I am) has anything to do with it.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 11:38:28 AM by spartana »

 

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