FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.

[koshtra]

The thing about a "first love" is that you really believe a new person can grant you entry into a new world. It's never actually true, but it can feel true. After a few rinse & repeats, you realize that it's not true... but you still remember that first falling-in-love as magic.

It sounds like you've had that experience just once, and are trying to hang onto it, and it's slipping away from you. I don't think it really matters how old your spouse is -- it's the "being granted entry into a new world" that matters, and it is just not a sustainable thing.

I think you're very wise in understanding that a sweet young thing would give you a cheap imitation of the "new world" thing for a short time, and then leave you far worse off. But I think you're very unwise in continuing to be, or wanting to continue to be, in love with your wife. Of course you should love her, and of course you do. But "in-love" goes away and it's supposed to go away. It's just laying way too much on a  human being to expect them to make your world magic forever.

You really need to stop looking for magic where it can't be found, and look for it where it can be. You're trying to do something that can't be done. It's far less destructive to try to find the magic with your same old spouse than to try to find it with a new sweet young thing -- but it won't be any more successful. 

[kork]

Just finished watching a webinar on the role of compassion in therapy - it is designed for clinicians so might not be a great fit for what you are dealing with, but they spent some time at the end talking about compassion focused therapy and the three circle model of how the threat, drive and compassion systems play into our emotional and physical well-being.  Thought immediately of what you are dealing with.  Here is a intro level discussion of the concepts:

https://blog.timlebon.com/p/compassion-focussed-therapy-cft.html

The link to the booklet he mentions explaining CFT for patients is broken, but you can find it here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwis8KrwjrPlAhUXqZ4KHVb9ApMQFjAAegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.getselfhelp.co.uk%2Fdocs%2FGILBERT-COMPASSION-HANDOUT.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3Z9KBE2XrC5u7RVKeVlk6E

Thank-you for this.  It seems to have overlapping elements to the inner critic course I'm taking. I've downloaded the guide.

The thing about a "first love" is that you really believe a new person can grant you entry into a new world. It's never actually true, but it can feel true. After a few rinse & repeats, you realize that it's not true... but you still remember that first falling-in-love as magic.

It sounds like you've had that experience just once, and are trying to hang onto it, and it's slipping away from you. I don't think it really matters how old your spouse is -- it's the "being granted entry into a new world" that matters, and it is just not a sustainable thing.

I think you're very wise in understanding that a sweet young thing would give you a cheap imitation of the "new world" thing for a short time, and then leave you far worse off. But I think you're very unwise in continuing to be, or wanting to continue to be, in love with your wife. Of course you should love her, and of course you do. But "in-love" goes away and it's supposed to go away. It's just laying way too much on a  human being to expect them to make your world magic forever. 

You are correct that I've had this experience once. I mean, I had "crushes" in high school that felt like something, but nothing in comparison to the emotions felt with my first, reciprocated love. Who would have thought when we started out that years later years later we'd still be together. Somehow, we managed to side-step a number of landmines which allowed our relationship to continue. I've done a lot of reading over the years on what to expect through different phases of a relationship. The 7 year itches, the 5 love languages, etc.  I'm "book smart" about it, but do not have the experience which leaves me vulnerable. I've read that for most, the euphoric "butterflies in the stomach lasts for a year or two." The "lust" phase. It's what feels like intense love, but it's not. Love is what comes afterwards. Love is like a calm ocean with soft, calming waves, not waves thrashing about on a rock face with intensity.

And I'm blessed because I get to share my life with the person I experienced "first love" with. This is comforting in many ways. I don't have the feeling of screwing up and losing my "true love" and I don't have regrets about past failed relationships. Equally, I didn't get to learn and grow from past failures. And to add fire to the flames of confusion, our relationship was star-crossed. Forbidden by my parents, long distance after 8 months for two years, age difference separating us, peer pressure and ridicule... But despite all that, we seemed to work.

And as a result, my wife and I have been together for 23 years and we've managed to build a rather successful life and be on the cusp of FIRE.

But tie that into long-term anxiety and supposed bipolar hypomania and I'm struggling. So the beginning phase of our relationship was really a barrage of different emotions. The euphoric high was magnified and the constant "break-ups" because of external forces were heart breaking.

I'm not trying to have my own pity party and it's real enough to me that I'm examining through therapy and a variety of courses to try to understand. My benefits suck so I'm paying for all of this out of pocket. Being somewhat mustachian, thousands and thousands of dollars is a lot of money.  But I have hope that it will help me uncover something.

You really need to stop looking for magic where it can't be found, and look for it where it can be. You're trying to do something that can't be done. It's far less destructive to try to find the magic with your same old spouse than to try to find it with a new sweet young thing -- but it won't be any more successful. 

This is an interesting observation and I didn't think of it this way. I needed to re-read to understand what I think you were saying. So my mind is taking me back 23 years and I'm ruminating the beginning of the relationship of my wife.  The mental image that's created is both of us in the car, late at night with nothing but the glow of the moon
 illuminating her face 3 feet in front of me. At that time, we weren't in love yet.  It was just fun. It was new. It wasn't even in that euphoric state yet.

But fast forward 23 years, I find I'm looking through rose coloured glasses and adding all sorts of powerful emotions to that memory. Those emotions didn't exist at the time.  I'm adding them based on what I know now. And I find that it's triggering the "magic" for a couple seconds and then fizzling out. So it's a hugely intense sense of loss and heartbreak. The emotion is misfiring.

It's almost like the scene in American Beauty at the end when Lester Burnham is remembering different moments in his life. The scene in particular that hits me hard is at 3:25 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtbbqjiFaGY) where he says "And Carolyn" which shows a fun, carefree version of his wife on the ride laughing and smiling. This vivid memory for him is my glow of the moon illuminating my wife's face back in 1996.

I'm poking at something that's fleeting and to your point, I'm not going to be successful.

But this is only a small part of it. My bigger challenge is that as time moves forward, the further we get from "that place" of magic in time. My mind plays games on me.  20 years feels like yesterday, and so 20 years will go by in no time. It's disorienting. And all of a sudden, my wife is the age of her parents who are of ill health (assuming nothing gets her before hand).

My brain is playing tricks on me and it's exceptionally cruel.

Also, my brain swings like a pendulum.  I'm trying not to repeat or contradict myself in my responses but if I do, it's because it's how I'm feeling at that particular time. I appreciate everyone's patience and insight.

[gaja]

I read an interesting piece about BPD, where the author theorised there are two dimensions to the disorder: energy and emotions, not one line. Normally, it is described as going from depressive (low in emotion and energy) to manic (high in emotion and energy). This guy had experienced that he could have high levels of energy while otherwise being depressed, or feeling manic but lack the energy to go through with any of the ideas. DH feels this description is accurate for what he experiences too. He says the combination of low energy and hypomania is the worst: the head spins round and round, but he can't do anything about it. For you; could the combination of high energy and depression explain some of your struggles?

BTW: what you call rumination, DH calls spinning thoughts. I think it describes it even better, because you can't help these thoughts. They just fly by, and sometimes they fly so fast you can't catch them.

[kork]

I read an interesting piece about BPD, where the author theorised there are two dimensions to the disorder: energy and emotions, not one line. Normally, it is described as going from depressive (low in emotion and energy) to manic (high in emotion and energy). This guy had experienced that he could have high levels of energy while otherwise being depressed, or feeling manic but lack the energy to go through with any of the ideas. DH feels this description is accurate for what he experiences too. He says the combination of low energy and hypomania is the worst: the head spins round and round, but he can't do anything about it. For you; could the combination of high energy and depression explain some of your struggles?

BTW: what you call rumination, DH calls spinning thoughts. I think it describes it even better, because you can't help these thoughts. They just fly by, and sometimes they fly so fast you can't catch them.

That is interesting about BPD. I still struggle if I have it. The psychiatrist says I do but I don't feel I experience the hypomania.  At least, I don't think I do, however, I've had other friends, long time friends say "Seriously, Kork? You don't think you're unnecessarily upbeat and positive much of the time?"  To me, I'm not acting any differently than normal. Someone who doesn't act like that must be droll and boring by default.

To your point though, I feel very much like mine are emotions.  SSRI's almost killed me and so my GP thought mood stabilizers would help. Hence the referral to the psychiatrist. And 6 sessions later, 150MG of Seroquel for BPD.

My emotions I could easily say are Bipolar. Periods of intense emotional highs followed by periods of intense depression. Much more depression lately. Emotional highs make me pleasant and happy to be around.

Rumination is like playing a 10 second video in my head, rewinding it and then having it play again.  Except that I'm tied to a chair with my eyes forced open to watch it over and over and over again.

[BicycleB]

Please don't be offended, but usually if your friends are saying "Seriously?" when you object to some detail of the diagnosis, the diagnosis is pretty accurate. Our friends are by far the kindest of the universe's many ways of sending us a message. It's better to listen to them than wait for harsher signals.

[gaja]

I read an interesting piece about BPD, where the author theorised there are two dimensions to the disorder: energy and emotions, not one line. Normally, it is described as going from depressive (low in emotion and energy) to manic (high in emotion and energy). This guy had experienced that he could have high levels of energy while otherwise being depressed, or feeling manic but lack the energy to go through with any of the ideas. DH feels this description is accurate for what he experiences too. He says the combination of low energy and hypomania is the worst: the head spins round and round, but he can't do anything about it. For you; could the combination of high energy and depression explain some of your struggles?

BTW: what you call rumination, DH calls spinning thoughts. I think it describes it even better, because you can't help these thoughts. They just fly by, and sometimes they fly so fast you can't catch them.

That is interesting about BPD. I still struggle if I have it. The psychiatrist says I do but I don't feel I experience the hypomania.  At least, I don't think I do, however, I've had other friends, long time friends say "Seriously, Kork? You don't think you're unnecessarily upbeat and positive much of the time?"  To me, I'm not acting any differently than normal. Someone who doesn't act like that must be droll and boring by default.

To your point though, I feel very much like mine are emotions.  SSRI's almost killed me and so my GP thought mood stabilizers would help. Hence the referral to the psychiatrist. And 6 sessions later, 150MG of Seroquel for BPD.

My emotions I could easily say are Bipolar. Periods of intense emotional highs followed by periods of intense depression. Much more depression lately. Emotional highs make me pleasant and happy to be around.

Rumination is like playing a 10 second video in my head, rewinding it and then having it play again.  Except that I'm tied to a chair with my eyes forced open to watch it over and over and over again.

How is your sleep how? Has it stabilized?

[kork]

Please don't be offended, but usually if your friends are saying "Seriously?" when you object to some detail of the diagnosis, the diagnosis is pretty accurate. Our friends are by far the kindest of the universe's many ways of sending us a message. It's better to listen to them than wait for harsher signals.

Perhaps...  But I still don't see it. I've always been a positive person by default unless there was a reason not to be.  I was an optimist. In fact, it's one of the things my wife notes that drew her to me. But I've never had the depressive episodes. I've just always been a little happier than most.

I told this to my GP and she indicated that I may just be really good at handling the day to day of BPD without any help. But when something "rocks my world" then I fall off the cliff with it whereas those without BPD can still manage to function.

How is your sleep how? Has it stabilized?

When I was on 50-75mg my sleep stabilized quite a bit. I was able to sleep through the night.  Now that I'm on 150mg, my sleep is a little more restless, but it's still reasonable.

[kork]

Just a quick note -- I believe BPD is usually used as the acronym for Borderline Personality Disorder, which is a different diagnosis/presentation than Bipolar Disorder.  Discussion here:

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/borderline-personality-disorder-bipolar-disorder#1

Good note!  I thought it was used for BiPolar Disorder and I was talking like the cool kids now, lol.

[kork]

One other thing to note.  I've had my own side business since the early 2000's.  This is largely one of the reasons why I was able to save as much as I have. As a side business, I've done around $1 million in sales with my side gig and being web design, it's nearly all time for hours income. No employees, minimal expenses, etc.

This year will be the worst year in 15 years and I'm fully expecting it to nearly dry up next year. The industry has changed a lot and my skillset hasn't kept up.  Rather, now I'm a manager and I'm not writing code nearly as much, if at all.

I also don't like doing this anymore. 15-20 Years ago, web design was fun.  It was creative and more wild-wild west. Now it's all frameworks and so forth.  So among the feeling of loss of so many other things, I'm having the feelings of loss with my own business.  Granted, I'm not trying to keep it going nor do I really care to, but there's a feeling of loss.

[ATS]

One other thing to note.  I've had my own side business since the early 2000's.  This is largely one of the reasons why I was able to save as much as I have. As a side business, I've done around $1 million in sales with my side gig and being web design, it's nearly all time for hours income. No employees, minimal expenses, etc.

This year will be the worst year in 15 years and I'm fully expecting it to nearly dry up next year. The industry has changed a lot and my skillset hasn't kept up.  Rather, now I'm a manager and I'm not writing code nearly as much, if at all.

I also don't like doing this anymore. 15-20 Years ago, web design was fun.  It was creative and more wild-wild west. Now it's all frameworks and so forth.  So among the feeling of loss of so many other things, I'm having the feelings of loss with my own business.  Granted, I'm not trying to keep it going nor do I really care to, but there's a feeling of loss.

No comments or opinions or experience concerning your diagnosis.

I do have some experience about one day looking around saying - wait, where am I in life? how did I get here? I'm tired of doing this, what do I do next?  What do you mean the option of doing <fill in the blank> is no longer an option? because I'm too old, don't have the skills, live in the wrong place, it's not popular anymore, physically can't do it etc.

I wish there was some easy answer to do x and y and it magically resolves, but it takes a combination of time, trust, reflection and sometimes luck as you find that next thing.

There are new experiences and adventures ahead, it can be difficult to leave the thought/expectation of some experiences and adventures behind, and there can be a grieving process, which sucks.

You're smart and resourceful.  There are new things out there...they will be different and maybe not what you expected.  Some parts won't be as good and some parts will be better and parts of the process will be easier and others harder and you'll feel frustrated and happy and sad and accomplished.  It's just hard working and waiting and figuring out what happens next. 

Sometimes it just happens without you noticing and you look around again and say wait, where am I in life? how did I get here?  I like this.

[nara]

I started a post a number of months back called "I bought a new house and it didn't make me any happier" - https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/i-bought-a-new-home-and-it-didn't-make-me-any-happier/

The gist is that we bought a new home which was to be our "forever" home. Since then, my life in my mind has been in a catastrophic decline.

I'm starting a new thread because this now has little to do with a house.  It has to do with my perception of turning 40 years old and seeing the rest of life barrelling down on me... and fast and having no clue what to do. I'm 40, my DW just turned 48 (Holy f***, that sounds old). My oldest daughter also seemingly grew up overnight.  She's turning 13 in a few months. She's the same height as my wife!

I'm driven, work hard and by most yardsticks in North American success, successful. 8 months ago, as a family we decided to move to a better neighbourhood without used needles in our backyard. It's been a downhill battle ever since... If you're interested, see the thread mentioned  above.

While most of my peers are entering their crunch years (kids, mortgages, living paycheck to paycheck because they deserve nice things) they have not yet saved a cent of money for retirement. Sure, they're paying down their mortgages, but beyond that, they're just making it.

Our net worth is $1.4 million including the house. We've got about $750k liquid. And in the last couple years I've realized that I won't necessarily want to fully-retire. I'm more of a semi-fire kindof person. So as I used to describe it to people that pretty soon, I could be a SUP instructor or work at a local bike shop part-time or start a business...  Anything I wanted to. I could even pet kittens for a living and as long as we accidentally earned enough money to pay for our cost of living which is modest, and not draw down from our stache, retirement (when we choose to do it fully) would be wonderful.

But enter my anxiety disorder.

The very thing that has allowed me to focus on FIRE and create these wonderful visions in my head of freedom and excitement are now being replaced with thoughts of... But then what? Live in a RV for the next, I don't know...  40 years? What about failing mobility or health? What on earth would I do every day to stay occupied? I've been focusing on "getting" and have no clue how to simply "be" without my mind wandering into dark places. I need something or else my brain sends me into a spiral into the land of "what's the worst that could happen?"

And now my brain is in a continual loop, trying to solve this problem like a dog on a bone.

What's the problem?

Death and more specifically, loneliness. I'm watching everyone around me get older. I don't feel any different. I feel like I'm 20. But suddenly, I look at my wife and I think "my wife just aged 20 years overnight..." We'll be out for a walk in our new neighbourhood, and we're talking to our neighbours and I'm fixated on thinking "how old are you?" and I'm noticing lines and wrinkles and crows feet. I feel like a 20 year old talking to grown-ups.  I wonder if they feel like a 20 year old talking to grown-ups too? I don't feel that way with existing friends, only new people I meet. It's like an age dysphoria.

I don't want to sound like a vanity obsessed asshole, I'm just being honest because I want to address the underlying issue. I want to "shallow Hal" it and not see visual beauty. I certainly don't want to lose my sight, but GIVE ME TONY ROBBINS!

And so all of a sudden, enter the anxiety. I just turned 40, wife is 48. My grandparents all died in their 90's, including my 270lb grandmother. My genetics are excellent for long life.  But here's what sucks. Long life doesn't add years to the beginning of life... They add it to the end. We just get older and older and older. I watched all of my grandparents grow frail enough to need a nursing home. My grandmother and grandfather could no longer be in the same room. They were bed ridden, on their own. My grandfather lived out his final months/years watching the stock market ticker tape. My grandmother would sit in a chair, watch the Price is Right and have nothing to look forward to... Just living dying a day at a time, hoping for death to come and take her to stop the struggle of being blind or having aching joints, difficulty breathing and fearing what would hurt or fail next. Loss of mobility, loss of independence, loss of themselves...

And given that my wife is 7.5 years older than me, I'm continually playing out the loneliness of when she passes away. It's almost like I'm "pre-mourning" the  loss of my wife and it hurts more than words can describe And now when I look at her, I see she's getting older. It's a trigger. I'm in tears multiple times of the day just with these very thoughts.

And so the anxiety has been leading to depression.

Now, the whole issue here is thought process. If I don't "think" about it, then it doesn't bother me. "Just stop thinking that way Kork." Yup, I'm first in line! I'd love to find out how.

I have hope that I'll get over this slump...  That I'll have an epiphany that will let me get over it. That somebody will say something so wise that it triggers a new wave of thought  for me.

And with my quest to FIRE, I was so preoccupied with the actual goal, I didn't stop to think about what I'd do... YAY!  FIRE! I read about decompression, type-A personalities, etc.  How would I occupy my time? And now that I'm depressed it's beginning to feel like it's a very slow, meaningless march to the end. I can't think of anything that interests me or brings me joy. My "feel okay" places are in bed with the blinds shut and dark, taking a hot bath with lavender bubbles and a couple candles (and a plastic boat, cause, you know... I'm a man). I also find solace sitting barefoot in a chair while poking at the firepit in the backyard. It's not a happy place. But I'm working on it.

My best friend of 30 years comes up to our family cottage with his wife and kids. The moments are perfect. They're wonderful by definition.  I can't seem to live in the moment and enjoy the moment. I get caught up in "what's the point." It sucks.

And I'm not just idly sitting by. Here's what I'm doing.

1. CBD oil - Have seen my GP several times and have a prescription for CBD oil (not sure if it's helping or not, but giving it a shot).
2. Medication - I have a prescription for Lorazepam but am only looking to use it when I absolutely need it. I started taking Zoloft but it almost killed me.  See below.
3. Counselling - I've seen a counsellor to determine what kind of counselling I could benefit from. As a result, I'm looking into a mindfulness group workshop, another one regarding being self-critical and of course, individual counselling. Individual counselling is tricky because I'm not sure what type of counsellor (male, female, older, my age?) would be best and I'm afraid to fail.
4. Spousal Support - My wife is leaving work early every day to be with me and the kids. This is helping with the isolation that I was going through in the winter/spring months. Kids are on summer vacation and there are days that I feel like I can't even get out of bed. I'm in what feels like a "safe space" as they like to call it. She's spoken with her employer and they are sympathetic as mental health runs in their family as well. They "get it." This is a short term bandaid.
5. Psychiatrist - I have a meeting with a psychiatrist at the beginning of August to see about actual diagnoses. My GP diagnosed me with GAD 20 years ago, but I don't know? Daily routines don't mess with me. Getting in my car to do daily stuff doesn't create anxiety as it does for many.  My issue is that my mind races and when it gets onto something, it latches on like a Pitbull and doesn't let go. This time around, my brain, like when I was 8 years old) has latched onto death and loneliness. It's been suggested I may have mild Bipolar and that mood stabilizers may help.
6. [ADDED:]Exercise and Nutrition - I exercise often. Cycling and weight training. Last year, I got down to nearly 160lbs but was far too thin for my body type.  I'm now a much healthier 185lbs. My face no longer looks like a skeleton.

THE PATH TO ZOLOFT
So 3 weeks ago, after realizing that part of the challenge may be isolation and loneliness, I started investigating ways to make new relationships. I work from home which is isolating and I was at a really low point.  There was a local meetup group called "connections" and it's all about getting people together to create connections. 500 members with a goal to create meaningful relationships for people through social interaction and events.  They had a meetup for mindfulness and meditation.  So I'm thinking, this could help. Mindfulness is something I've been reading about and I'd love to address the loneliness. So I put myself out there. At this time, I'm anxious, I'm depressed and grasping. I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of waves and my head is going under and I can barely breathe. I decided, out of desperation to attend the event.

So I drove to the event and got there 10 minutes early.  I walked through the front door and was the only one there.  I was greeted by an older gentleman. We started talking and chatting and I asked how many people usually made it out and he replied with "well, we're trying."

I was the only one.

So we chatted for a while, waiting for others to show up. Nope. Nobody. Nobody came to the "connections" meetup. Closer to the end, I found out that the older gentleman was 52 years old.  Only 4 years older than my wife. My heart sank... This old man is practically the same age as my wife. Now, I will say that my wife doesn't look for feel 48. She's active and beautiful and she's a wonderful person. I love her with all my heart and have for 22 years. Looking at us nobody would see the age difference. 

<personal vulnerability>
I left, got in my car and cried. I cried all the way to my mom's house. The emotional pain just needed to leave my body. I wasn't physically hurt, it was just overwhelming. I got to my moms house and gave her a big hug and cried in her arms. She knows I've been going through challenges, but I think this made it real for her.

And that's when I tapped out. I decided to start taking the Zoloft.

Fast forward a few days. Holy $hit. I would wake up at 2am with waves of emotion washing through me with such intensity and pain. It truly felt like a demonic force was trying to take over my body. That it was trying to work it's way in there. The emotional pain was so intense, that I gave my wife the bottle of Zoloft so that she could hide it from me for fear that I might suddenly, in a moment of weak desperation swallow the whole bottle. For the first time in my life, I researched what it's like to have suicidal tendencies because that's a question they always ask before an appt with a doctor. I checked off half of the list as being a potential candidate.

At this point, I could certainly understand how Robin Williams, Heath Ledger or Anthony Bourdain would have felt that this was the only way out...

5 days into it, I saw my doctor again and we both agreed to stop the Zoloft. That's when I decided to give the CBD oil a fair chance. I don't drink, I've never smoked (anything) and my ways of dealing with stress and anxiety have traditionally been through diet and exercise.  Beyond that, I don't have any other escapes. No other vices. CBD oil feels like a failure to me but I'm getting over that.

</personal vulnerability>

And so here I am. In 8 months I've gone from someone who's happy and interesting in things to anxious, depressed and uninterested. It's a terrible cycle. I was an 8.5/10 on the happiness scale for the last number of years. Fast forward to today, anxiety and depression rampage all over my life and leave me anxious and depressed.

Two things that helps.

1. Knowing I'm not alone and I'm not the only person to struggle.
2. Taking about it.

Anyways, this has gotten long.  As per #2 above, I'm talking about it.

FWIW, very few know about this. Looking in from the outside, it's with envy from my peers. Nobody would see me as I truly am based on the image I project. Not all is what it seems.

Thanks for listening.

I just wanted to say that I completely understand. My situation and anxieties are very similar to yours. I am turning 39 and my husband is 41. We have a networth of a little over 1 mil. I thought when we reached this number, I would never stress about money again, but that is not true. I'm beginning to wonder if there is even a number in which I will ever really feel financially secure. I think finding out about FIRE has helped me as equally as it has hurt me, because life is all about hustling now to get to a magic number...whereas in the past, I used to just be ignorantly happy. A lot of own anxieties are social...just having to go to work each day and deal with people is horrible. And I'm hoping "happiness" will come from my time being my own, but I'm not sure. Work is definitly a distraction from anxiety/depression as well.

We had a close friend die in a tragic accident recently and it's put things into perspective for me about trying to enjoy life more in the present and not working so hard for a future that isn't guaranteed. When you reach 40 though, you kind of realize how short life is and how much time has slipped away. You may only have another 10-20 years before your body starts to deteriorate, and you are mourning the loss of your young self as you move into the next phase of life. While backpacking throughout the world may be your life dream when you're young, you begin to realize that your goals and desires change as you age too and after a certain point there's no going back to these dreams. Dreams have a shelf-life. It's almost like becoming a new person and realizing that the world with all of its possibilities, isn't as open to you as it once was when you were younger with seemingly infinite possibilities.

Anyway. I just wanted to let you know you're not alone. Even your comments about talking with other adults made complete sense! I am not a mom and I work with families, and even the mom's who are all younger than me now.. seem older to me just because they are moms. In my mind I'm still 20 as well.

I don't have answers, but I think these feelings are normal.

[kork]

I just wanted to say that I completely understand. My situation and anxieties are very similar to yours. I am turning 39 and my husband is 41. We have a networth of a little over 1 mil. I thought when we reached this number, I would never stress about money again, but that is not true. I'm beginning to wonder if there is even a number in which I will ever really feel financially secure. I think finding out about FIRE has helped me as equally as it has hurt me, because life is all about hustling now to get to a magic number...whereas in the past, I used to just be ignorantly happy. A lot of own anxieties are social...just having to go to work each day and deal with people is horrible. And I'm hoping "happiness" will come from my time being my own, but I'm not sure. Work is definitly a distraction from anxiety/depression as well.

We had a close friend die in a tragic accident recently and it's put things into perspective for me about trying to enjoy life more in the present and not working so hard for a future that isn't guaranteed. When you reach 40 though, you kind of realize how short life is and how much time has slipped away. You may only have another 10-20 years before your body starts to deteriorate, and you are mourning the loss of your young self as you move into the next phase of life. While backpacking throughout the world may be your life dream when you're young, you begin to realize that your goals and desires change as you age too and after a certain point there's no going back to these dreams. Dreams have a shelf-life. It's almost like becoming a new person and realizing that the world with all of its possibilities, isn't as open to you as it once was when you were younger with seemingly infinite possibilities.

So sorry for your loss Nara.

I'm trying so hard to figure out where the malaise is coming from and it's almost as though I sailed myself directly into the storm without knowing what a storm looked life.

I'm not FIRE yet.  I still work and so does my wife, but because I work from home it almost feels like FIRE. I spent so much time with FIRE being the goal as an escape away from the daily grind, I didn't realize that the daily grind was keeping me busy and occupied. And now,  here I am with my hands in the air and my shoulders shrugged thinking... "What will I do with my time?"

I was reminiscing with a friend the other day.  We both have stories of being young with our significant others and going to the local plaza, getting pizza or subs and coming back home and lazing away the day watching TV or a movie.  Young love just fluttering away the day. Little did we realize that it would become some of our best, most warm and heartfelt memories.

Like Lester Burnham says in American Beauty.

Lester: God. When I was your age, I flipped burgers all summer just to buy an eight-track.

Ricky:  That sucks.

Lester: No, actually it was great. All I did was party and get laid. I had my whole life ahead of me.

At age 18, this was similar to me except that I was saving for a new computer and served deep fried chicken.

And to your point of things changing, in FIRE doing the same thing is likely to yield different results. I mean, sure it would be nice to relax with your spouse and watch a movie with some takeout, but I suspect that the time would feel almost wasted rather than "this is the life... cuddling with my sweetheart, feeling overwhelming emotions of love and closeness and tenderness."

But from my 20's on, I feel like if someone were reading a book on my life, the book would be titled "The most boring, ordinary life... ever."

Anyway. I just wanted to let you know you're not alone. Even your comments about talking with other adults made complete sense! I am not a mom and I work with families, and even the mom's who are all younger than me now.. seem older to me just because they are moms. In my mind I'm still 20 as well.

I don't have answers, but I think these feelings are normal.

Yeah, this is a weird one. I mean, I've become much more wise with age,  but beyond just knowing more, I don't feel any different.  I look at people my age and think "You've got it all figured out."

They may not be as close to FIRE as I am, but they have come to terms with their realities.  They know they won't be rich and famous and most importantly, they are mostly grateful for what they have in life.  They aren't freaked out by the notion of getting older and it's not something they actively think about. They also have separate relationship with their spouse. They've managed to be able to keep their own personalities separate from their spouse. There's no con-dependance. They're quite happy being on their own for hours and hours, listening to music, playing mindless games on their phone or tablet and just relaxing for the day.

And the challenge is, I've always been different and this makes it lonely to try to deal with.  So thank-you Nara for acknowledging that I'm not alone in this.

[wenchsenior]

I just wanted to say that I completely understand. My situation and anxieties are very similar to yours. I am turning 39 and my husband is 41. We have a networth of a little over 1 mil. I thought when we reached this number, I would never stress about money again, but that is not true. I'm beginning to wonder if there is even a number in which I will ever really feel financially secure. I think finding out about FIRE has helped me as equally as it has hurt me, because life is all about hustling now to get to a magic number...whereas in the past, I used to just be ignorantly happy. A lot of own anxieties are social...just having to go to work each day and deal with people is horrible. And I'm hoping "happiness" will come from my time being my own, but I'm not sure. Work is definitly a distraction from anxiety/depression as well.

We had a close friend die in a tragic accident recently and it's put things into perspective for me about trying to enjoy life more in the present and not working so hard for a future that isn't guaranteed. When you reach 40 though, you kind of realize how short life is and how much time has slipped away. You may only have another 10-20 years before your body starts to deteriorate, and you are mourning the loss of your young self as you move into the next phase of life. While backpacking throughout the world may be your life dream when you're young, you begin to realize that your goals and desires change as you age too and after a certain point there's no going back to these dreams. Dreams have a shelf-life. It's almost like becoming a new person and realizing that the world with all of its possibilities, isn't as open to you as it once was when you were younger with seemingly infinite possibilities.

So sorry for your loss Nara.

I'm trying so hard to figure out where the malaise is coming from and it's almost as though I sailed myself directly into the storm without knowing what a storm looked life.

I'm not FIRE yet.  I still work and so does my wife, but because I work from home it almost feels like FIRE. I spent so much time with FIRE being the goal as an escape away from the daily grind, I didn't realize that the daily grind was keeping me busy and occupied. And now,  here I am with my hands in the air and my shoulders shrugged thinking... "What will I do with my time?"

I was reminiscing with a friend the other day.  We both have stories of being young with our significant others and going to the local plaza, getting pizza or subs and coming back home and lazing away the day watching TV or a movie.  Young love just fluttering away the day. Little did we realize that it would become some of our best, most warm and heartfelt memories.

Like Lester Burnham says in American Beauty.

Lester: God. When I was your age, I flipped burgers all summer just to buy an eight-track.

Ricky:  That sucks.

Lester: No, actually it was great. All I did was party and get laid. I had my whole life ahead of me.

At age 18, this was similar to me except that I was saving for a new computer and served deep fried chicken.

And to your point of things changing, in FIRE doing the same thing is likely to yield different results. I mean, sure it would be nice to relax with your spouse and watch a movie with some takeout, but I suspect that the time would feel almost wasted rather than "this is the life... cuddling with my sweetheart, feeling overwhelming emotions of love and closeness and tenderness."

But from my 20's on, I feel like if someone were reading a book on my life, the book would be titled "The most boring, ordinary life... ever."

Anyway. I just wanted to let you know you're not alone. Even your comments about talking with other adults made complete sense! I am not a mom and I work with families, and even the mom's who are all younger than me now.. seem older to me just because they are moms. In my mind I'm still 20 as well.

I don't have answers, but I think these feelings are normal.

Yeah, this is a weird one. I mean, I've become much more wise with age,  but beyond just knowing more, I don't feel any different.  I look at people my age and think "You've got it all figured out."

They may not be as close to FIRE as I am, but they have come to terms with their realities.  They know they won't be rich and famous and most importantly, they are mostly grateful for what they have in life.  They aren't freaked out by the notion of getting older and it's not something they actively think about. They also have separate relationship with their spouse. They've managed to be able to keep their own personalities separate from their spouse. There's no con-dependance. They're quite happy being on their own for hours and hours, listening to music, playing mindless games on their phone or tablet and just relaxing for the day.

And the challenge is, I've always been different and this makes it lonely to try to deal with.  So thank-you Nara for acknowledging that I'm not alone in this.

Keep in mind that your perceptions of things do not necessarily line up with objective reality.  Our thoughts are often not objectively true. How do you know these things you believe are true? My own impression is that most people do not match your impressions, and that you are are actually far less different than you think you are. (Of course, my impressions might not match reality, either LOL).

[kork]

Keep in mind that your perceptions of things do not necessarily line up with objective reality.  Our thoughts are often not objectively true. How do you know these things you believe are true? My own impression is that most people do not match your impressions, and that you are are actually far less different than you think you are. (Of course, my impressions might not match reality, either LOL).

Great observation.  It's just how I perceive things. Maybe everyone is just as clueless as I am despite the up-front image I present.

[big_owl]

"Yeah, this is a weird one. I mean, I've become much more wise with age,  but beyond just knowing more, I don't feel any different."


I think you need to take this one and really reverse your thinking.  Not feeling different in your 40s than you did in your 20s is a hell of an awesome thing.  I know a lot of people (myself included) would be over the moon to still feel that good.

[startbyservingothers]

- I think mindfulness practice could be extremely useful to you. 

I've always had a "reason" for my anxiety such as "My job causes anxiety because my boss is a jerk," or "I've been doing XYZ, so I have anxiety from doing so much and being stretched so thin."  Yet when I quit my job the anxiety was still there.  When I stopped doing XYZ, the anxiety was still there.  -   The triggers are external, but the anxiety is internal.  It may not be there every minute of the day,  but the "causes "  are clearly a scapegoat if I still have anxiety after ridding myself of them.

I've recently gone to a Financial Independence meetup in my area.  While not an option for everyone, it seems like a good place to share some struggles.  Personally I see people 'scared to death'  about leaving employment.  I'm still finding my way myself (Left employment 3 years ago.  Currently running a small technology business for a few hours a week, and still have similar questions as you...  What next?)   Because you've been successful I think you are over-estimating the difficulty filling your day.   In fact I'm willing to bet $100 that if you retired this coming Monday, within 6 months you will have had to form some strategy for fitting everything you want to do into your day.  -  I'm certainly not the stereotypical 'go getter'  on this forum.  (I'm not very motivated at all.)  But I've yet to find a day with too many hours.

[Leisured]

Impressive topic. Sorry for your problems, kork, but excellent advice from Loud Noises post #15 #2, that is Volunteer. Do something for other people, and perhaps you already do that.

Ancient advice: Count your blessings.
You seem to be in good health, except for insomnia.
You live in a first world society where government thugs will not kill you, or expropriate your property.
You have enough assets that you do not need to worry about paying the bills.

How many others in the world live like you do? I mean no offence.

I live in Australia, and recently there was a TV series where residents of an old people's home interacted with 4 year olds. I understand the experiment followed similar experiments overseas. The complete series seems not to be on YouTube.

www.youtube.com/results?search_query=retirement+home+four+year+olds

[DFJD]

Hi again - I’m glad therapy and medication is helping.  As I mentioned, I also grew up with an alcoholic father (who was prone to bouts of rage) and some other stuff that I won’t mention here. It took me a long long long time (like, decades) to move beyond denial and minimization about it.  As with you, therapy and medication is helping.  In addition to therapy, medication, and attending a support group, I’ve also been very helped by the book “The Body Keeps the Score.” Not a short read, but it was very important for me.  Also trying looking up the concept of “emotional flashbacks.”  Basically, this is the idea that traumatic experiences that happen to us when we are children often come back to us as intense emotions (rather than the kind of flashback that happens with a traumatized adult).  Just throwing that out there in case any of those thoughts are helpful.  Best of luck as you seek healing.

[skywatcher]

Hey Kork. If you want to PM me, feel free. I've been on this train.

A lot of good recommendations here. I'll reinforce this is a serious diagnosis and it will take a lot of work to get where you want to get. It's easy to get caught in a trap of thinking - wow the next thing will make everything better - then you get it, and it isn't. Everyone has their own 'aha' moment, but it may not come in the form you imagine. My 'aha' was the awareness that there isn't any particular thing that will make life the way you want it to be. The answer as such, is yourself - it isn't external. Doesn't mean I don't fall back into the trap though.

It can take longer than you think to stabilize. Be patient, and keep doing what you are doing. Much props to you for accepting this and taking it on.

[kork]

It's been almost a year and I thought I would post a follow-up.

Firstly,  I'm doing much better. I'm not perfect (far from it), but better.

I essentially went into hiding 10 months ago.  I stopped posting on forums, I completely abandoned the concept of FIRE,

Most importantly, Covid-19 hit. This was a shifting point for me.  A line in the sand. Everything become somewhat unpredictable. Life as we knew it started to change. People we're losing their jobs...  lot's of people... A co-worker of my wife came down with CV-19 and went into a 30 day coma.

As a result, I stopped seeing my therapist, kids were at home every day from school and FOMO completely evaporated because, well, nobody was doing anything.

And much like other times in my life when bad things occur, I tend to excel.

Health

I decided within a week of CV-19 hitting that I would fight the near 90 degree uphill battle of losing weight while on seroquel. Any Google searches indicate this as being nearly impossible and many people report significant weight gain while on this drug along with many other unpleasant challenges. Additionally, one of the major side effects of Seroquel is significant weight gain.

So I worked my a$$ off. I worked out like crazy, sometimes 3 hours a day both cardio and lifting (compound and isolation exercises), I started juicing to make sure I got my daily nutrients and kept protein higher to maintain muscle mass.

I dropped 25lbs in 4 months. Today, my resting heart rate in around 47-52bpm and at almost 42 years old, my 1 minute heart recovery is over 70 bmp and 2 minute recovery best is 86 bpm.  As I understand it, that's the heart health of a strong, healthy 16 year old high performing athlete.

Subsequently, I'm now off the seroquel after tapering off for 3 months (also very challenging in itself).

Fire

Barebones FIRE... Something I'd been looking forwards to like finishing a good book and getting to the end of a great movie. Only, when I got there, the book is over. The story has ended. What next?

I'd be able to have my freedom. To do whatever I wanted when I wanted to do it. To ride my bike or whatever.  Walk puppies. Who cares.

But because I work from home in high tech and am in a senior leadership role, I already have that... except I make a good salary doing so. In fact, in my contract it specifically states I can work when and where I choose. I have freedom.

I was also bored. I realized that I NEED to be busy.  If I'm not, my mind wanders to bad places.

My mustashian car was having a clutch issue. I traded it in and got a sweet, Estoril Blue BMW M Series (custom edition, only 200 in Canada sold). Yep, not very mustashian but I was driving one day and I recall a car that I owned 20 years ago; A Cobalt Blue Tiburon. I loved that car.  I spent hundreds of hours building a custom sound system in her. Taking apart panels, fiberglass, kick panels, custom a-pillars.  It was a huge hobby of mine. I would drive and listen to music for hours in that car and the memories are great.

So traded the Mazda which was literally a box to get me from A to B and traded for a BMW.  3 months later, I'm 100% happy with my purchase.  Zero regret, zero buyers remorse.

On the subject of FIRE. Nope, not for me. This is a huge, paradigm shifting realization. For years or even more than a decade, I've been on my quest to be the master of my own destiny. And one morning I woke up and realize that FIRE was just the shiny thing I had been chasing.  Not the car, not the house, not the [fill in the blank here]...

Relationships

My relationship with my daughters is unparalleled. My therapist has children that are younger than mine and he's indicated a number of times that my relationship with my two girls is truly something for other parents to strive towards and envy. That makes me feel good. I truly feel I'm doing the parenting thing right.

My marriage, OTOH, remains under the magnifying glass. 23 years together and I'm slowly peeling away at the onion. Codependence is a key word. Not on purpose, but it's just how things went. There's a Tom Cochrane song called "Boy Inside The Man" and the lyrics are:

When I turned seventeen
We had passion, we had dreams
Thought the love we were fighting for
Was something holy, something more...

That verse hits hard. And that's exactly how I felt for many years.  Something holy, something more. But it's started to become empty and hollow in recent years which truly feels like a loss. It's actually heartbreaking. We got together when I was in highschool over 20 years ago. Something has changed and it's painful. And I've read the book "The Five Love Languages" and so forth. I know the emotions change over time. But this is different.

But I'm not abandoning it... No, just like losing weight on seroquel, I plan to fight for it. I'm also aware of what Esther Perel says.

"Most people will have multiple marriages in their lifetime... It's up to you if it's with the same person or not." Something like that anyways.

Conclusion

So anyways, wanted to post an update because I wish I had seen something like this in a FIRE forum myself. The POST-FIRE threads were always interesting to me but lots of people tend to leave the forum post fire. Anyways point being, I've been looking to FIRE for a long time, but now that I'm pretty much here, I got to the end of the book and it just closed. No, it slammed in my face!

Some people would have no shortage of things to do. My dad tells me that there's not enough hours in the day for him to do all the things he's wanting to do. But I look at his TDL and think... boring...

But to each their own.

But nope, I think I'm just getting started. My nest egg certainly gives me a good, strong base, but I'm not going to live off $40k a year while couponing and looking through bargain bins...

Nope, I'm just getting started.

[BicycleB]

@kork, thanks for filling us in!

Also, congrats on your various self realizations. Best wishes for your marriage. Impressive health outcomes, surely the result of a lot of work.

I really like the part about realizing that you feel an intense need to be busy. It's so helpful to know yourself.

Curious to know your next adventures. Very glad your head is above water.

[wenchsenior]

Great to hear an update. Midlife crises, man.  They nearly always are a bit of a cliche, but they are a huge hurdle nonetheless. However, I found mine to be very useful in many ways and am kind of happy to have had it.  You might find yourself feeling the same.

Best wishes going forward.

[Eowyn_MI]

So I worked my a$$ off. I worked out like crazy, sometimes 3 hours a day both cardio and lifting (compound and isolation exercises), I started juicing to make sure I got my daily nutrients and kept protein higher to maintain muscle mass.

I dropped 25lbs in 4 months. Today, my resting heart rate in around 47-52bpm and at almost 42 years old, my 1 minute heart recovery is over 70 bmp and 2 minute recovery best is 86 bpm.  As I understand it, that's the heart health of a strong, healthy 16 year old high performing athlete.

When you said 'juicing' my brain immediately thought "but that's not healthy at all" and then I realized that you probably meant juicing vegetables like carrots, etc...

I'm happy to hear that you were able to improve your health during this time of covid!

[Mr. Green]

Awesome update! FIRE isn't for everyone. Your health changes alone are priceless and I'm sure you are absolutely loving that. Good luck to you on your journey, Sir!

[partgypsy]

Thanks Kork for updating us. It takes a strong person to be that brutally honest about their situation. I realize I was unnecessarily harsh to re: your situation with you and your wife. Please excuse it as me projecting my situation on it. As an aside, while me and ex are the same age, I had a couple serious relationships before him, while I was his first serious relationship. He has said more than once that bothered him, and that he expressed jealous of guys of were years in my past. And he went through this explanation that part of his whole "experimentation' was to prove to himself he could fall in love and "commit" to another person, because we got together so young and had regret. I thought myself that sounded insane and was a huge rationalization, but reading what you said, I don't know. The only thing I can say is the only constant is change. Every day you wake up in a way you are another person. I also like the quote that everyone has multiple marriages, just have to choose whether it's with different people or the same person. Honestly if he was able to be more honest w me during his turmoil, we somehow got through it and stayed together, we would NOT have the same marriage. Hopefully a better one. And most everyone has puppy, first crush love. Which is intense. But not completely real. What you have with your wife is real, choosing to be together, join a life, have kids, raise those kids together, I envy you. Not as glamorous but it's real.

[kork]

I'm certainly not out of the clear yet. Not by a long shot. But at least I'm able to get up out of bed in the morning.

While I've battled mental illness (anxiety mainly) my entire life to some degree, the overwhelming power of the depression in the last 12 months is/was indescribable. When they say people who are depressed have a hard time getting out of bed or even taking a shower, it's no joke... And I can say that from a place of career success, family success and general health being good.

I'm terrified to end up back in that place again.

[Glenstache]

I'm certainly not out of the clear yet. Not by a long shot. But at least I'm able to get up out of bed in the morning.

While I've battled mental illness (anxiety mainly) my entire life to some degree, the overwhelming power of the depression in the last 12 months is/was indescribable. When they say people who are depressed have a hard time getting out of bed or even taking a shower, it's no joke... And I can say that from a place of career success, family success and general health being good.

I'm terrified to end up back in that place again.

As someone who also struggles with depression and anxiety, I hear you loud and clear on desire to avoid that place. To the extent possible I'd recommend, based on my own experience, to keep going to the therapist even if it feels like you  have tapered to a place where you are level and even if it is via some sort of telehealth. In hindsight, keeping to it through covid and through what felt like plateaus at the time has been really valuable to me. I have also had good success with medication after some trial and error with a very good psychiatrist. Your path and situation are unique from mine, and what works for you may be very different.

Also glad to see the check in. It seems like you've had some new insights, or refinements to understanding what makes you happy. Having at least barebones FI gives you a lot of options for how to stay busy and experiment with work (or whatever you put your energy into) - rest of life balance. Prioritizing your mental health will pay dividends in all of the other areas of your life. Don't short yourself on that front. Keep it up and keep the periodic updates coming!

[DirtDiva]

he Buddha’s final words: Impermanence is inescapable. Everything vanishes. Therefore there is nothing more important than continuing the path with diligence. All other options either deny or short-shrift the problem.

One of the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism:  the root of all suffering is unsatisfactoriness.

Buddhism and Stoicism help teach us to deal with our feelings of fear of losing the things we grasp for.

I wish you the very best on your journey. It’s pretty courageous of you to put your innermost  thoughts out there and I commend you.

[kork]

An update since it's been about 16 months. The recent passing of Meat Loaf (the artist) has triggered me to post a follow-up here. More on that at the end of my post.

I am defeated. I want everyone else to leave... so that I can too. I have moments of joy and positivity...  But it's not common anymore.

In the last three years my outlook on life has flipped 180 degrees. It's been like trying to squeeze through the eye of an hour glass. It's been painful and hurtful.

Three and a half years ago I felt like a vibrant light. Happiness was high, I found joy in simple things, I was healthy and full of life and vigor. I was well on my way to financial independence and semi-retirement. I was having some challenges with nostalgia and longing for happiness that existed in the past, but I didn't think it was robbing me of today.

For the last 40 years, for the most part I've been a bright light that was in good company. A few bumps along the way, but overall pretty good. I was always kind, positive, optimistic and annoyingly upbeat. Ted Lasso(ish). I was super honest. While everyone else was downloading movies and music, I was out paying my hard earned money for the physical copies because it was the right thing to do. They have something I want. It's not my place to take it if I don't want to pay. I was the type of person who wouldn't push anyone down so that I would rise above. I mentored younger employees to strive to personal greatness.

My emotional highs have always been high. I now realize that my emotional "range" is greater than can be bearable. It's hard to understand and differentiate when you've lived with it all your life. When I'm happy, where most people would feel joy I feel it more intensely, for longer. It's amplified. It's like I'm producing more brain chemicals.  And the same is true on the sadness. Hence, the type 2 bipolar characteristics that my psychiatrist honed in on with me. I'm not full on bipolar, but I have the same range of highs and lows.

And my oldest daughter appears to struggle with the same issue of emotional intensity. But her coping skills are different. She feels such emotional pain that she cuts herself. Initially she would blame the cat for the cuts... Clever coverup... But they aren't all from the damn cat. You're welcome my sweet daughter for this genetic curse.

She cuts herself usually with her nails, sometimes with a razor blade (only once) to take the elusive, emotional pain she feels and allows her to find a target for it.  The trigger is often an argument she's having with her friends and she says something that triggers them. All the "triggers" with kids these days. Everyone has a trigger. Can't say this... Trigger!  Can't say that, Trigger! Can't tell your friends "I don't like my skinny arms" because the overweight kids say "you don't know what it's like to be fat!  You don't know how horrible it is..."  And then she cuts herself because she's not allowed to dislike her skinny arms and feels guilty for even bringing it up. Well, now she has scars all over her skinny arms.

She's getting help, but her ADHD is making it a challenge for her to retain information and coping skills.

I've been told I'm raising my daughters to be lionesses to take on the world, but I feel like I'm raising them to be taken out to the pasture for slaughter.

The pandemic hasn't helped. The initial emergency and unknowing of it kicked me out of the depression but after watching society around the world, governments, politics, celebrities, social media influencers, and many people I know who I consider friends, but who's true personalities are amplified through social media.

Hole-e-f*ck. Everyone is an asshole is an understatement. The segregation, the power, the greed, the vile nature of humans. It's filthy.

And now I feel like all those emo kids in high school knew something I didn't. Life is dark. Death is nature's gift for enduring life. The best you can hope for is to not suffer. Like Kenny Rogers said "The best you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

I remain positive and strong for my daughters. It's a mask I put on every day. I put 110% effort into it. But sometimes I feel like my very presence is what's spilling over to their reality, unknowingly. "Get over it Kork! Do it for your daughters! Your internal struggle is having a negative effect so just change it!"

But I'm being overwhelmed by the swamp of sadness. And so I feel like I need to leave and take the poison with me. But I will never leave my daughters.

I feel like the dad at the beginning of the movie Twister. Holding the shutter closed with the Tornado outside screaming "I gotta hold on!, I GOTTA HOLD ON!" - before the twister sucks him up and throws him away. Only... I'm still holding on.

I'm very involved in my daughters lives. My wife is not. It's not that she's a bad person, but her parents were absent. I guess it's all she knows and doesn't care enough or know better to change it. She's not mean or evil or bad. She just doesn't know how to be involved.  We've argued countless times about how I can take them to doctors appts and school stuff because "I work from home" whereas she's in an office.

I've pulled away from my wife and will not allow myself to be vulnerable with her. My trust in her has changed. I no longer see her as my other half. She's an independent person. I feel as though I've been mourning the death of our relationship and watching her let it happen. And now I'm angry that she did.

I now feel like if we were once "soulmates" we no longer are. Our story is not one of overcoming obstacles and flourishing. It's about trauma and pain and suffering emotions but elusive and unable to pinpoint the source of issue. The last couple years it's felt like mourning the death of what once was. like a vicious ripping of two souls. But not just an equal splitting. More like a 80/20 split where I felt like after the turmoil I've been left with 20% of my soul and the other 80% is left wandering, aimlessly, frightened and lost. Or it could be that it's not lost at all, but that it exists with my wife and she won't give it back. Not because she's holding onto it, but because it's attached to her. But it's no longer part of me. I gave her something that I treasured and now she has it and I can't get it back. It's difficult for words to describe this, but I'm trying. My wife doesn't feel this way. For her, the lack of intimacy, of closeness, of trust is just something she's letting pass through her. Either she's checked out, or she was never checked in.

And I choose not to talk about this with her now. The vulnerability, the rawness, the pain and hurt. I need to keep what little soul I have left and protect it. I'm afraid of losing more and so rather than ruminating about the same thing, I'm concerned that one more "expressed hurt" will somehow have her take my soul a little bit further, that soul she can't give back, but that I want back.

And so in the meantime, I'm not doing anything right now except riding things out.  I've been told that making any moves right now is like trying to take off in the fog. Best to let the fog settle or clear.

So I remain grounded, trying to keep my composure firm, proud and balanced while everything around me is in fluctuating. I'm hopeful that I see more clearly with the passage of time and not destroying what I've worked for and sacrificed to build.

Moving back to our hometown to raise my kids was a bad decision. Initially it was comforting to be back where I grew up. Feelings of nostalgia were warm and comforting as I took my kids to the same park I once played at. Now, it's a source of pain.

My mom is awesome. She continues to be a beacon of hope and positivity.

---- BREAK FOR MY DAUGHTER WHO JUST GOT HOME ----

My daughter just got home from school and sat with me telling me about her day at school. I brought tampons and Midol to her today as she wasn't prepared. TMI, perhaps, but that's the kind of dad I am. As she was sitting with me, I inspected her arms and legs for new cuts. There aren't any. *** Deep sigh of relief *** But the scars on her forearms and back of her hands are heartbreaking.

I feel like a failure as a parent. Perhaps my involvement is hindering her progress. Perhaps I’m the only reason she’s still alive. Either way, feels like failure.

So anyways, just wanted to update, perhaps just for myself to re-read in the future when I can look back and say "good times!"

I was out skiing with my daughter at the same place I ski'd as a kid.  I would look over across the chair lift and couldn't help myself from seeing my best friend from childhood. We would ski 3X a week. The snowflakes falling and we talked about life from the innocent mind of a kid with freedom for the night.

He died 2 years ago of massive organ failure. But that brings me full circle to Meat Loaf.  It doesn't matter how long ago these events took place. They hold a place in my heart that evades time.

But it was long ago and it was far away
Oh God it seems so very far
And if life is just a highway - then the soul is just a car

And objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are

"Objects In The Rear View Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are" - Meat Loaf

[iluvzbeach]

Oh, kork, I’m so very sorry you are in so much pain. You write beautifully and I can only imagine that you are a wonderful father and human being. Please don’t leave. I wish I had the right words to write but I’m not nearly as graceful with my words as others can be. So, in lieu of any sort of wonderful, insightful response, I’m just going to post this:

If you or someone you know is in crisis, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (Lifeline) at 1-800-273-TALK (8255), or text the Crisis Text Line (text HELLO to 741741). Both services are free and available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. All calls are confidential.

[BicycleB]

Good to hear from you, Kork! Sorry things have been so grim for you most of the time lately.

Best wishes for any possible resurgence of connection with your wife. I'm very glad you're both persisting for now, hard as it must be.

Also, much respect for continuing to be an involved dad. I imagine it makes a huge difference for your daughter. I admire your perseverance very much.

I've been told that making any moves right now is like trying to take off in the fog. Best to let the fog settle or clear.

So I remain grounded, trying to keep my composure firm, proud and balanced while everything around me is in fluctuating. I'm hopeful that I see more clearly with the passage of time and not destroying what I've worked for and sacrificed to build.

Sounds like you're getting good advice about the fog! You sound like your actions are right on track. Keep it up!! I hope it gets better for you.

PS. Pretty sure I mentioned upthread thinking about suicide long ago, accepting some confusing advice about delaying, and eventually feeling better. I don't want to imply a false equivalence because the difficulty level of what you experience sounds much harder to me. But still I feel that each person who does come through phase of suicide-contemplating despair implies some bit of hope for the next.

I don't remember if the deaths of 2 of my own best friends were before or after past posts in this thread, but sure can relate to keeping friends alive in memory. Anyway, best wishes, and thanks for posting.

[BikeFanatic]

@kork
I am older but also in similar circumstances fired a year, divorce, family death, family conflicts and mental health issues. I found a group, adult children of alcoholics and other dysfunctional families.
They have workbooks and meetings. There is something called the ACA laundry list, Google that and see if some of your past is now triggering as an adult in midlife.
Adult child work has helped me tremendously. This is what ACA is all about. Virtual hugs to you.

[BeanCounter]

@kork
sending internet hugs Kork.

I too have high highs and low lows. When I'm in a low I remind myself that this is just a feeling that won't last. People have hard days, hard months, hard years and it's ok. It's just part of being human. It will get better.  I also find that listening to music and getting exercise helps.

[simonsez]

and many people I know who I consider friends, but who's true personalities are amplified through social media.

Do you think you would feel this way if you weren't singing the blues?  You think that the small proportion of a human's representation - a highly curated profile and blip of an online presence - is truer compared to the version of people in person "when the cameras are off" and you can view all the nonverbal communication as well?  Not trying to invalidate your perception but just noting the possibility that in certain lenses reality can seem fairly warped.  It doesn't mean you're wrong at all, just a possibility that your emotional state is leading to you perceiving situations differently compared to when you are on a more even keel or hitting the highs.  This is more rhetorical and for you to ponder: Is this a general sentiment that you have about most of your friends on social media or did something specific happen with one person or a small group that led you to this claim?

If you have burnout, my wife and I were just discussing this short interview on two sisters writing about burnout and how emotions are physically manifested all the time.
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/05/720490364/to-help-women-kick-burnout-sisters-write-book-to-understanding-stress-cycle

Venting and sharing your perspective is important and I don't want to get in the way of that.  I don't see why the advice wouldn't work for men as they advocate physical activity and affection as two common ways to "complete the stress cycle" and no longer be chased by the lion.  Break a sweat, give and receive 20 second hugs with loved ones, and good luck to you!  It can be easier said than done but the body has needs and sometimes when the brain doesn't want to do something, it requires additional strength/willpower.

By sharing your sentiments I think that's not only a positive for you as an outlet but also think it's a positive for the wider community as emotional swings and lows are not abnormal experiences (I think they're quite common!) and there can be empathy and solidarity.

[Glenstache]

So many thoughts from that last post, kork. Thanks for sharing and please keep posting and keeping us updated.

The recurring thought I had was of Robin Williams who was the embodiment of joy an happiness and good humor, but clearly had a relationship with the black dog. I am 46 years old and honestly can't remember a time in my life that my depression hasn't been a constant, either in full force or something that I knew was potentially waiting for me next week or next month when in remission (ie, back to a semblance of feeling flat like a semi-normal person). That has improved a lot after really putting effort into therapy and medication and making changes. The process is slow and winding, but it can get better. It's important to be able to have some spaces where you can let that mask down, be it with a friend or therapist or support group, and know that your experience is real and set the weight of wearing that mask down for a bit. In that same vein, making space for social activity, especially with a shared experience is really important. That can be group hikes, for many people it is church, it can be volunteer work, it can be helping friends with projects around their house. Research shows that one of the most effective things we can do to improve mental health is do things for and with others. I've personally been a lot happier since I made social media a lot harder to access for myself and use it only as a tool for access to activity groups rather than doom/thirst-trap scrolling.

I have no words for how painful it must be to see your daughter's struggles. It sounds like you are helping her get help and being a safe place for her. Keep it up.

[Linea_Norway]

I wish you all the best, @kork . Big hug from me.

Maybe you can take a look at treatment with ketamine and see if you can do that anywhere near you. It seems to work well for people who are severely depressed, and much faster than normal anti-depressives. And by treatment, I mean treatment in a controlled setting with a psychologist. As far as I know it is still not mainstream accepted as it is considered a narcotic substance, but there is good evidence that it works and some clinics are using it.

[Moonwaves]

The Psychologist who uses MDMA to treat mental illness

Dr. Paul Liknaitsky is the head of clinical psychedelic research at Monash University Australia. He is conducting world-first clinical trials into the use of magic mushrooms and ecstasy to treat depression, anxiety, and PTSD. This is his second time on this podcast to chat about this exciting and important field.

The mention of ketamine reminded me of the episode of the Blindboy Podcast I am currently listening to - it's an interview with Dr. Paul Liknaitsky, head of clinical psychedelic research at an Australian university. While it may not necessarily apply to your particular situation, it is a pretty fascinating topic. The first podcast where they spoke is definitely worth a listen, too.

In general, I have found all of his podcasts on mental health to be very useful and interesting so if listening to podcasts is something you, or your daughter, like to do, I'd recommend them. I enjoy the art and music and hot takes episodes as well but the mental health ones are particularly good.

[LightStache]

I've pulled away from my wife and will not allow myself to be vulnerable with her. My trust in her has changed. I no longer see her as my other half. She's an independent person. I feel as though I've been mourning the death of our relationship and watching her let it happen. And now I'm angry that she did.

I now feel like if we were once "soulmates" we no longer are. Our story is not one of overcoming obstacles and flourishing. It's about trauma and pain and suffering emotions but elusive and unable to pinpoint the source of issue. The last couple years it's felt like mourning the death of what once was. like a vicious ripping of two souls. But not just an equal splitting. More like a 80/20 split where I felt like after the turmoil I've been left with 20% of my soul and the other 80% is left wandering, aimlessly, frightened and lost. Or it could be that it's not lost at all, but that it exists with my wife and she won't give it back. Not because she's holding onto it, but because it's attached to her. But it's no longer part of me. I gave her something that I treasured and now she has it and I can't get it back. It's difficult for words to describe this, but I'm trying. My wife doesn't feel this way. For her, the lack of intimacy, of closeness, of trust is just something she's letting pass through her. Either she's checked out, or she was never checked in.

And I choose not to talk about this with her now. The vulnerability, the rawness, the pain and hurt. I need to keep what little soul I have left and protect it. I'm afraid of losing more and so rather than ruminating about the same thing, I'm concerned that one more "expressed hurt" will somehow have her take my soul a little bit further, that soul she can't give back, but that I want back.

And so in the meantime, I'm not doing anything right now except riding things out.  I've been told that making any moves right now is like trying to take off in the fog. Best to let the fog settle or clear.

Seems a little gaslighty. The logic is that you can't make any big life changes because your poor mental health renders you irrational. It presumes 1) you are defective (i.e. your brain is dysregulated) and 2) that changeable life circumstances aren't the cause of your discontentedness.

Given that you've tried therapy and pharma without success, you should challenge these two assumptions. Maybe your life circumstances are causing your depression and you need to make some tough changes for the long term good.

I share a lot of your feelings and haven't had any success with psychiatry, so there's a huge amount of projection and empathy in this post. But it sounds like you've done all the things to change yourself: therapy, meds, exercise, alcohol, caffeine, meditation, etc. At what point does it become reasonable to conclude that your brain might not be the problem?

You are at the nadir age on the happiness U-curve. I hope that your curve is just a little more pronounced than average and that you'll look back on these times as a short, dark chapter from which you learned something and emerged stronger.

[FIREin2018]

kork,

(i've only read your initial post and none of the 4 pages of responses.)

sounds like you have dysthymia?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/persistent-depressive-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20350929

Long term depression.

also, mid-life crisis is a possibility.
starts when your wife is having hot flashes.

as to what to do when your FiRE:
i've FiRED in 2018 at age 47.
i do stuff that brought me joy before i FiRED but now i spend ALOT more hrs doing it.

I am single, no kids.
yeah, growing old sucks.
bed ridden waiting to die sucks.
but that's life.
Accepting it makes it go along way towards your anxiety's.

Plus you have a wife and a kid to grow old with.
Look forward to that

[partgypsy]

Kork, just read your last update. I am so sorry that you are in such pain and suffering. I'm sorry that you are feeling things so intense.
Obviously please continue whatever professional help you are getting (you sound in crisis).
But when things feel more calm, I suggest learning about Eastern philosophy (Taoism for me, some people I know zen buddhism). I'm a pretty cheerful, but can have anxiety, and also can be very emotional, esp when it has to do with my family and my kids, and I've had sad things happen to me (I've had a brother, my Dad, 2 uncles and a friend die in the last 3 years. I also visited a childhood area in Wisconsin that I have so many fond memories of it, and the changes I saw, environmental decline, thinned and cut down forests, tire burning factory, japanese stiltgrass in what were supposed to be pristine areas, broke my heart).

Anyways the 2 primary books are
 Zhuangzi or Chuang Tzu
and the Tao Te Ting

The other thing I have to say which may or may not be helpful. Do not expect to always feel close to your life partner. Be respectful of that person but forcing more, doesn't work. Sometimes things happen where you are on a different path. Maybe the paths will meet, maybe one or both of you will change and that won't happen. I believe that time isn't so linear and while things happen linearly, all that ever existed still exists in some way. Even if you didn't take a picture or don't remember, bad times now do not negate whatevrr good was in the past.

[goat_music_generator]

Seems a little gaslighty. The logic is that you can't make any big life changes because your poor mental health renders you irrational. It presumes 1) you are defective (i.e. your brain is dysregulated) and 2) that changeable life circumstances aren't the cause of your discontentedness.

Given that you've tried therapy and pharma without success, you should challenge these two assumptions. Maybe your life circumstances are causing your depression and you need to make some tough changes for the long term good.

I share a lot of your feelings and haven't had any success with psychiatry, so there's a huge amount of projection and empathy in this post. But it sounds like you've done all the things to change yourself: therapy, meds, exercise, alcohol, caffeine, meditation, etc. At what point does it become reasonable to conclude that your brain might not be the problem?

+1 to all of this.

When your life sucks, your brain is under gradually increasing pressure. It starts spitting out weird, terrible outputs like "I don't want to live anymore" when sometimes, there's a thought underneath it that you're not allowing yourself to think, like, "I don't want to be working this job / in this relationship / living this way anymore," or "I want to do [thing that your conscious brain believes you Can't do]". You don't let yourself think about what you actually want, because it seems impossible, and so you think "guess I'll die" instead.

If your life sucks so much that you don't want to be living it anymore, well-- better to take some other ridiculous, drastic action that you thought was crazy or impossible. Why not? What do you have to lose?

When I was feeling really low a few years ago, I always had this option in the back of my mind of "quit my job, flee everything about my current life, move to Kansas and be a hermit." (I had enough FI money socked away that I could credibly have done that, if I really got to that point.) I ended up finding other ways to make my life better, and gradually dug myself out, but it helped to have that option in the back of my mind to compare to.

What do you find meaningful in life? And are you doing it? What do you really want? Are you letting yourself pursue it?

Just my 2c.

[partgypsy]

Seems a little gaslighty. The logic is that you can't make any big life changes because your poor mental health renders you irrational. It presumes 1) you are defective (i.e. your brain is dysregulated) and 2) that changeable life circumstances aren't the cause of your discontentedness.

Given that you've tried therapy and pharma without success, you should challenge these two assumptions. Maybe your life circumstances are causing your depression and you need to make some tough changes for the long term good.

I share a lot of your feelings and haven't had any success with psychiatry, so there's a huge amount of projection and empathy in this post. But it sounds like you've done all the things to change yourself: therapy, meds, exercise, alcohol, caffeine, meditation, etc. At what point does it become reasonable to conclude that your brain might not be the problem?

+1 to all of this.

When your life sucks, your brain is under gradually increasing pressure. It starts spitting out weird, terrible outputs like "I don't want to live anymore" when sometimes, there's a thought underneath it that you're not allowing yourself to think, like, "I don't want to be working this job / in this relationship / living this way anymore," or "I want to do [thing that your conscious brain believes you Can't do]". You don't let yourself think about what you actually want, because it seems impossible, and so you think "guess I'll die" instead.

If your life sucks so much that you don't want to be living it anymore, well-- better to take some other ridiculous, drastic action that you thought was crazy or impossible. Why not? What do you have to lose?

When I was feeling really low a few years ago, I always had this option in the back of my mind of "quit my job, flee everything about my current life, move to Kansas and be a hermit." (I had enough FI money socked away that I could credibly have done that, if I really got to that point.) I ended up finding other ways to make my life better, and gradually dug myself out, but it helped to have that option in the back of my mind to compare to.

What do you find meaningful in life? And are you doing it? What do you really want? Are you letting yourself pursue it?

Just my 2c.

. This is a really good point and one I overlooked. When they say don't make decisions, they are talking about, wait 6 months. It's been years now. When someone is that unhappy, and you've tried the obvious, you have to put everything on the table, empty out your pockets so to speak, and have the mindset that anything is negotiable. You can't "help" your marriage or your child if you can't help yourself. Good luck.

[begood]

Oh, kork, I'm sorry to hear all this. As the parent of a child who cut, I understand some of what you're going through as you look at your sweet girl's arms and legs. Is she getting professional help? Our child was wildly resistant to both therapy and medication for several years. They are now both taking medication and in regular therapy and they don't cut anymore. Cutting can be an outward sign of internal pain, and if done where you can see it, may be a cry for help. Otherwise, she would hide it by cutting on her torso or ankles - if you think she's cutting in spots not visible to you, ask her straight out.

Our child wrote a whole research paper on why CBT didn't work for them. In the end, it DID work for them, but they had to decide they were ready to start healing. We couldn't decide that for them. Watching a loved one suffer is a terrible thing, and I feel for you.

I want to very gently encourage you to treat yourself the way you do your child, with tenderness and understanding. Give yourself the same grace that you offer others. Would you be open to trying medication and therapy again? For our kid, it took four years and six therapists for them to find one they were willing to meet with more than three times. It made all the difference and opened the door to trying medication, which has changed their world for the better. I want that for you too.

[iluvzbeach]

@begood, what you have written, and the tone in which you communicate it, is really beautiful.

You sounds like a wonderful parent and I’m so glad your child had (& has) you as their advocate.

[begood]

@begood, what you have written, and the tone in which you communicate it, is really beautiful.

You sounds like a wonderful parent and I’m so glad your child had (& has) you as their advocate.

This made me cry (in a good way)! I appreciate you saying that.

[iluvzbeach]

@begood, what you have written, and the tone in which you communicate it, is really beautiful.

You sounds like a wonderful parent and I’m so glad your child had (& has) you as their advocate.

This made me cry (in a good way)! I appreciate you saying that.

Now you’re going to make me cry…

[MaybeBabyMustache]

@kork - sending you all kinds of internet hugs & good wishes. I read through the entire thread, and a few things that come out for me (note, I haven't suffered from depression/anxiety, so please toss these out if not useful).
-I married my high school sweetheart, because I was so convinced that young love was worth fighting for. My parents just celebrated their 50th anniversary, and are incredibly happy together. That was my only measuring stick. I was young, and foolish, and that marriage was an epic fail. The harder I tried, the worse it became. It impacted every element of my life. It made me feel like a failure that I wasn't going to have what my parents had. I WANTED the relationship to work in every possible way. And, it wasn't a good fit for either of us. I'm now very happily married, and I truly can't imagine what my life would have been life if I hadn't drummed up the courage to leave him, cause a tremendous amount of family strife on all sides (first person in my family to get a divorce) & screwed up our financial lives. I'm not suggesting this is the right course for you, just sharing that our vision of young love can often be so colored by who we are at the time we first experience it. We grow so much from that phase, and sometimes it's not growing together. Trying to hold on if it doesn't make sense would be challenging.
-Do you exercise? In addition to all of the great suggestions about mindfulness (as well as professional treatment, of course), exercise is my biggest mood booster & stress reliever. Hard, cardio exercise for a minimum of 60 minutes a day. It seems kind of over the top, and I assure you, I'm no fitness model, but it really works to keep me balanced. I've tried to do more casual workouts, and they are helpful, but something about 60+ minutes really reduces my stress & anxiety. Long walks, hikes, reading on the elliptical, meeting friends for pickup games, whatever works.
-I'm so sorry your daughter is struggling. Parenting teens is so fraught with challenges, and feelings like we are in "charge" as parents, but really are there to guide and influence. It can be really difficult.

Big hugs to you

[poxpower]

This is brutal, read your latest update, sucks to see it get worse after 3 years.
You've expressed a ton of thoughts I've had. I'm 37 next week, retired 1.5 years ago, no kids, no spouse.

There's nothing you can do about the fact of getting old and losing people around you. Just don't think about it. I've dealt with thoughts of death and family dying since I was very young, it would send me into short panic attacks. Just stop thinking about it.

I certainly don't have the answer to depression as I have a lot of it, very often. I notice that it's worse when I do nothing productive, but it's hard to rationalize anything as productive when you're retired and some days I am just so tired, for no reason.

I'm guessing a social circle is going to be the answer. It's not easy when you retire young, you share little in common with most people. But you need friends. You need to hang out with people. You have a spouse, if you feel she no longer fills the role of a friend or even a person you want to hang out with, you have some things to think about.

But I do understand your feeling of crippling depression combined with an absolute refusal to ever check out early.

I did also find that getting drunk gets me out of it for a few hours, but that's obviously not sustainable at all. It's just strange to not feel so depressed for a short while.

People say to exercise. I exercise maybe 10-15 hours a week on average, it really only moves the emotional pain into physical pain and then it comes back. At least you aren't fat/unhealthy this way, that's something.

Lastly I found it's a good exercise to look at other people's lives. Would you really trade with any of theirs? I would trade places with very few people, even if they're happy. So doing this you can more rationally question your depression, I feel. Why are you depressed and someone who you wouldn't want to be is happy?

[Moonwaves]

I certainly don't have the answer to depression as I have a lot of it, very often. I notice that it's worse when I do nothing productive, but it's hard to rationalize anything as productive when you're retired and some days I am just so tired, for no reason.

You're not tired for no reason, you're tired because depression can up the amount of energy required for even simple things like getting dressed by a significant amount. When a large part of your energy is going into literally just putting one foot in front of the other (even if the only place you make it to that day is the toilet), tiredness is not far behind. (Ask me how I know :-D)

@kork Hope you're doing ok.

[poxpower]

(Ask me how I know :-D)

* asks *