Fellow Engineers: why so many admin assistants promoted to Project Management?

[Bearded Man]

The CIO once said to me that in his experience of 30 years in IT, Project Managers are one step above an admin assistant and that only people who can't hack it as an actual Engineer are attracted to the role. I agree with him, though I've considered joining their ranks only to get out from under them, and told him that too.

Sadly, over the past 3 years his statement has proven to be true. I've seen FIVE admin assistants, all of whom were middle aged and completely incompetent according to not only my own experience but that of EVERY person in the office I spoke with, get promoted to project manager, to the dismay of the technical staff who now have to deal with these glorified secretaries. If they are incompetent why were they promoted? They were promoted by the head PM in the PMO, who was an admin assistant there four years ago when she started but the CEO liked her so he promoted her to the head PM in the PMO!

Most technical resources I've worked with at many companies, including large well known companies, absolutely HATE project managers. Just google project managers useless or project managers glorified secretaries and you will see not only the articles but the comments where people who are obviously upset engineers let it all out and we see just how much PM's are hated.

Now, don't get me wrong, we need someone to track and report status, coordinate the work efforts of others, taking meeting minutes, etc. I just never thought that was ALL someone would do. Frankly, as an IT Lead, I do that in addition to the technical work which not only includes development but also managing the servers, databases, etc.

How these people manage to make as much if not more than developers is beyond me. I have a Project Management Certification and formal training as well as a dozen IT certs. RACI charts, communication charters and risk registers are great, but they are things anyone who knows how to use Office can do. You're not going to become a Java Developer after a 40 hour course similar to the one on PM I went to. Why then do these positions pay as much if not more than MOST developer positions?

Most of the devs at my work make 60-70K a year, with a few at 90K and me at 150K. The PM's make about 70-80K which I think is ridiculous. I'm seeing more uprisings online about this, but I know the PMP is in heavy demand. I actually gave the reason why I think that is the case and what I think is wrong with the industry to the instructor in my PM class and she actually AGREED with me passionately. Most PM's exist because the functional managers don't want to manage the details, just sit in their offices.

Just frustrating to deal with what are literally secretaries with skills anyone has, who think they are above me and dish out made up change request after change request while I actually have to do the real work putting it together, not just typing a few lines in an email and clicking send like they do because they think it is a neat idea.

[Goldielocks]

To answer your posted question -- where else should admins be promoted to??  Many these days have full bachelors degrees (in marketing, business, communication, HR, etc).

A top of their industry office manager for a 150 employee location has to be a great project manager, from negotiating rental leases, dealing with contractors and juggling big C-suite egos that demand too much personal IT admin time...  they have a lot going on.   

So, admins will take the PM coursework, and even PMP designations at my work.   Hopefully only the good ones get a chance at a second or third job experience, often starting with small internal projects (coordinate the annual volunteer day)... and then building on it until they get the 3years experience.


I agree that people without skills should not be promoted or pushed into career fields for which they are not suited. sounds like your work culture backfired a few years ago and now you are trapped with overpaid doorstops that can only fill out forms.

[Goldielocks]

Project management =/= Engineers

Project Management is a separate skill set, just like Electrical engineering is different from Structural engineering.  Project management is not like becoming a team lead or supervisor (which any technical background can do)

I know many engineers that make Horrible project managers, even though they try.  A PM needs excellent communication, document control,schedule control, cost control, safety, risk awareness, leadership, etc.   Just because someone is an architect or engineer does not mean that they are the default "great" project manager.

Yes -- I have that conversation about every 3 months at work.   

Everyone who wants to be a PM must take the education modules (10 half days over 3 months), and build up experience from project manager assistant (documents and invoices / costs), to small projects, to larger projects.  It takes 3 years for someone that already has technical work experience to be a fully qualified PM, in my opinion.   

[Bearded Man]

To answer your posted question -- where else should admins be promoted to??  Many these days have full bachelors degrees (in marketing, business, communication, HR, etc).

A top of their industry office manager for a 150 employee location has to be a great project manager, from negotiating rental leases, dealing with contractors and juggling big C-suite egos that demand too much personal IT admin time...  they have a lot going on.   

So, admins will take the PM coursework, and even PMP designations at my work.   Hopefully only the good ones get a chance at a second or third job experience, often starting with small internal projects (coordinate the annual volunteer day)... and then building on it until they get the 3years experience.


I agree that people without skills should not be promoted or pushed into career fields for which they are not suited. sounds like your work culture backfired a few years ago and now you are trapped with overpaid doorstops that can only fill out forms.

That's great, and I agree with you on the last paragraph, but the job doesn't justify a 100% increase in salary for what is essentially the same clerical work they were doing before. We have one PM who's job it is to print name plates and set them up on the conference room table along with coffee, snacks, etc. and take notes during the meeting. This is what an administrative assistant does for 40K a year, not a "Project Manager" for 80K a year.

Yeah, there are serious cultural issues where I work, super high turnover. I'm the longest standing person there in my role. Others lasted only a year, while I've done 3 years of hard time. Sadly, this BS seems to be happening in organizations with full retardation. I've never seen this level of nonsense at MS, and the PM's there are usually real PM's managing real projects, not pouring coffee for people at 80K/year salaries.

[RangerOne]

To answer your posted question -- where else should admins be promoted to??  Many these days have full bachelors degrees (in marketing, business, communication, HR, etc).

A top of their industry office manager for a 150 employee location has to be a great project manager, from negotiating rental leases, dealing with contractors and juggling big C-suite egos that demand too much personal IT admin time...  they have a lot going on.   

So, admins will take the PM coursework, and even PMP designations at my work.   Hopefully only the good ones get a chance at a second or third job experience, often starting with small internal projects (coordinate the annual volunteer day)... and then building on it until they get the 3years experience.


I agree that people without skills should not be promoted or pushed into career fields for which they are not suited. sounds like your work culture backfired a few years ago and now you are trapped with overpaid doorstops that can only fill out forms.

That's great, and I agree with you on the last paragraph, but the job doesn't justify a 100% increase in salary for what is essentially the same clerical work they were doing before. We have one PM who's job it is to print name plates and set them up on the conference room table along with coffee, snacks, etc. and take notes during the meeting. This is what an administrative assistant does for 40K a year, not a "Project Manager" for 80K a year.

Yeah, there are serious cultural issues where I work, super high turnover. I'm the longest standing person there in my role. Others lasted only a year, while I've done 3 years of hard time. Sadly, this BS seems to be happening in organizations with full retardation. I've never seen this level of nonsense at MS, and the PM's there are usually real PM's managing real projects, not pouring coffee for people at 80K/year salaries.

If a company chooses not to have PMs do their jobs and pay them market rate that is their choice. But a real PM has a very difficult and demanding job that deserves a high salary. Mainly they are accountable for projects slipping and making dates. They have to balance expectations against reality and come up with a plan that will succeed more often than fail. They have to mitigate risk and have the foresight that an engineering or marketing individuals may not have time to consider.

I am a software engineer and if I am ever offered a PM position I am going to run away. It is a thankless difficult time consuming job devoid of anything that could be considered fun.

[Goldielocks]

To answer your posted question -- where else should admins be promoted to??  Many these days have full bachelors degrees (in marketing, business, communication, HR, etc).

A top of their industry office manager for a 150 employee location has to be a great project manager, from negotiating rental leases, dealing with contractors and juggling big C-suite egos that demand too much personal IT admin time...  they have a lot going on.   

So, admins will take the PM coursework, and even PMP designations at my work.   Hopefully only the good ones get a chance at a second or third job experience, often starting with small internal projects (coordinate the annual volunteer day)... and then building on it until they get the 3years experience.


I agree that people without skills should not be promoted or pushed into career fields for which they are not suited. sounds like your work culture backfired a few years ago and now you are trapped with overpaid doorstops that can only fill out forms.

That's great, and I agree with you on the last paragraph, but the job doesn't justify a 100% increase in salary for what is essentially the same clerical work they were doing before. We have one PM who's job it is to print name plates and set them up on the conference room table along with coffee, snacks, etc. and take notes during the meeting. This is what an administrative assistant does for 40K a year, not a "Project Manager" for 80K a year.

Yeah, there are serious cultural issues where I work, super high turnover. I'm the longest standing person there in my role. Others lasted only a year, while I've done 3 years of hard time. Sadly, this BS seems to be happening in organizations with full retardation. I've never seen this level of nonsense at MS, and the PM's there are usually real PM's managing real projects, not pouring coffee for people at 80K/year salaries.

Senior PM's at my work manage projects like New Hospital Design and Construction.   Submarine Base Renovation.  Wastewater treatment plant R&D pilot to reduce waste byproducts.

I don't even call myself a PM, at best an "intermediate" level (as many aspects of the PM'is job sucks, very stressful and requires intense detail focus to get the team working), but will likely be a PM lead on an $11 million plant expansion this year...     

We are definitely not printing out name plates.   :-)

[Spork]

My problem was never so much who got promoted, but why we needed PMs in the first place.  It wasn't usually the person, it was the position.

There *are* projects that are seriously complicated and need serious management.  Usually though, that requires an in depth knowledge of the project.  If it is a huge software project, you almost need the technical lead doing the PM work.  If it is a huge building, you probably need someone with general contracting experience, etc.

90% of the projects I've worked on in my career were so small and not interconnected that adding a PM in there just complicates things.  You don't need someone to allocate resources over simple projects.  I generally feel like it is lazy management that has just decided they no longer want to be in the loop on things, so the delegate it off to PMs.

[Goldielocks]

My problem was never so much who got promoted, but why we needed PMs in the first place.  It wasn't usually the person, it was the position.

There *are* projects that are seriously complicated and need serious management.  Usually though, that requires an in depth knowledge of the project.  If it is a huge software project, you almost need the technical lead doing the PM work.  If it is a huge building, you probably need someone with general contracting experience, etc.

90% of the projects I've worked on in my career were so small and not interconnected that adding a PM in there just complicates things.  You don't need someone to allocate resources over simple projects.  I generally feel like it is lazy management that has just decided they no longer want to be in the loop on things, so the delegate it off to PMs.

... and then because they called them PM's... HR then insisted on paying them competitively with PM's.... but no one stopped to check that they were actually doing comparative PM work....

OK that was my cynical internet voice coming out -- I know nothing of OP's situation.

[BlueHouse]

How these people manage to make as much if not more than developers is beyond me. I have a Project Management Certification and formal training as well as a dozen IT certs. RACI charts, communication charters and risk registers are great, but they are things anyone who knows how to use Office can do. You're not going to become a Java Developer after a 40 hour course similar to the one on PM I went to. Why then do these positions pay as much if not more than MOST developer positions?

I volunteer with some national and international project management organizations and I'm on the certification board of one such organization.  One problem I see quite often is when people pass a certification exam, they think they are qualified to be a PM, when instead the cert itself is meant to be a minimum qualifying tool for the position.  PMI's PMP cert became wildly popular when the US Govt started requiring it for its own PMs, and then companies followed suit.  Whenever a cert becomes a requirement, people game the system and prep courses are built to teach the exam, but they offer very few other skills.  You simply cannot learn to manage a program in 40 hours -- those are prep courses to pass an examination!  Nothing takes the place of experience on programs with qualified PMs. 

I'm sorry you have had such a poor experience.  But that only speaks to the quality of your organization, not to qualified PMs in legitimate companies working legit programs.  Perhaps you should consider leaving your company, otherwise people may start to believe that all employees at Company X are unqualified for their positions. 

[Josiecat]

I'm a PM and this thread is insulting.  It really does depend on where you work and the culture of your organization.  Our asses are on the line when a project is in jeopardy, and we have to take the blame.  It sounds like your PMs are glorified admins, but it is not like that everywhere.

[AZDude]

Project manager can mean a lot of different things. Some are actual project leaders who organize and get shit done. Others are glorified secretaries who just get in the way. I've seen both. Might just be the specific organization you are in. A good project manager is invaluable. A bad one is incomprehensibly frustrating.

[use2betrix]

I have seen many times where a person is promoted to a project manager because they sell themselves by kissing a pathetic amount of ass.

Those people seem to like to flaunt their position, little do they know that everyone just looks down on them for being fake.

[Apocalyptica602]

I think it definitely depends on the culture and the industry. At my fortune 500 engineering / manufacturing company, Engineers are the PM's for small to medium sized equipment and improvement projects ($0-2MM) we have a corporate PMO that does infrastructure and plant expansion projects ($1MM-$50MM+)

We also have R&D PMs who manage 5-10 year new product development projects concept -> launch etc.

These people are higher up and compensated commensurate with the level of their job (probably $80k at the extreme low end up to near $150-160k with generous bonuses)

I've never worked in an industry where PMs are glorified admins personally, although I have had some that I felt were incompetent.

[jzb11]

There is a lot of mismanagement and incompetence.

At the end of the day it comes from the top. Either your directors are incompetent, or they're unaware of the reality of what goes on day to day (which really means they are incompetent, because any competent director should have a firm grasp of how things are).

It's the same at my company and it's due to the fact that our directors are morons. They do not know how to run a business, and it shows in all of their personnel decisions, the state of the projects, etc.

[Jack]

I've worked in two different industries, civil engineering and software engineering. In the former case, the closest thing we had to a "project manager" was the principal engineer (who had a PE license and obvious technical skill). In the latter case, the project managers were all reluctantly-promoted software engineers and were also good at their job. In fact, at the companies I've worked at, anyone labeled "admin assistant" would not even be in the engineering department, so there's no chance they'd be put in charge of engineers.

Of course, I've only ever worked for relatively-small companies (a couple hundred employees or less). Maybe there's more dysfunction in big companies?

[Slee_stack]

This thread has merit, but it is worded poorly.

The OP has a management structure which may rewards incompetence.  This is not uncommon.

To label a 'PM' job title as a 'glorified admin' is only anecdotal.

While I will get plenty of hate here, frankly I think SW Engineers are one of the most overpaid groups anywhere.  Go figure perspective!. So take that.  Nyah Nyah.

Compensation boils down to skillset needed (demand) and candidates available (supply).

Rewarding incompetence is annoying regardless of form and title.  I can emphathize with the OP's frustration

PMs at my company are responsible for timelines, budgets, resource allocation, technical issues, reporting, and personal accountability.  They are paid well and endure plenty of stress too.  I don't envy the position. 

[Jouer]

"I'm an engineer and everyone else is stupid."

Nice thread you have going here. And looking down on others....is it just admin and project managers or are there others you look down on as well?

[ColoradoEng]

In the industry I am in (Power Plants) where $1 billion dollar projects happen, a good project manager is so valuable.  I've worked with shitty and awesome project managers, and the fact of the matter is they have a tough job. I work on the technical side now (I've done construction side too), and project managers have to manage the 100 engineers and designers on the project.  This is for every engineering discipline.  That is a ton of work!  If you really think the project manager role is just some clerical work isn't seeing the whole picture.

Let's say you make a mistake and cost the project money, the project manager has to answer for it.  Missed deadlines, they have to face the client.  It's a stressful job.  I'm working toward becoming a project manager because I think I would be good at it, but when I talk to current project managers about the position I don't envy them.  I'll wait until I get enough experience before I'll push for that position.

[mm1970]

I guess it depends on the industry.  I'm in engineering, and good project managers are hard to find, and worth their weight in gold.

And they need to be technical, as in, engineers or scientists.  They need to understand all the ins and outs.

Not everyone can keep track of all the details, and keep things moving.

[druth]

I wish being a PM was that easy at most places!  I'm an IT business analyst, and I like my job.  A common trajectory is to go from BA to PM, but I would absolutely turn that down.  At most companies PMs are the one who get thrown under the bus when the timelines aren't met.  They make more money than me, but that's because they have very similar jobs except with more stress.

[Open Space]

I have to agree with mmm1970.  I've never seen an admin position move to PM in the industries I've worked.  I'm a project manager in new product development and it's a highly technical role which is only filled by experienced engineers.  For that matter, on the NPD side none of the PMs are really interested in the PMP certification.  One who took the training said it wasn't very applicable for the dynamic nature of our projects.  Planning and resource management are secondary to technical leadership. 

The more "pure" PM roles in my industry are still highly technical and are filled with engineers who understand the application and products/tools they have to install and integrate into systems.  My experience is mainly in industrial electronics and the oil industry.   

[partgypsy]

I am a project manager (project coordinator) I admit I am overqualified for my job (I have a PhD) get paid 70K a year. Coordinator to me fits better than manager, because I have to coordinate everyone (for any particular study there is the PI, IT staff, statistician(s), and RA), yet we are not considered managers (am not anyone's boss, except the RA maybe). Among the things we do is take a grant and basically, execute it, figure out what is needed and on what time frame. Everything from identifying and programming the measures (if it uses surveys), design the tracking database, all regulatory paperwork (this is significant) scheduling the meetings and creating and distributing minutes, being everyone's "minder' for what they are supposed to do. Since it is research for the last few studies also responsible for pretty much all the screening (identifying the partcipants), recruiting and often much of the data collection, assisting in data cleaning, writing of procedures and eventual publication.
It is often a thankless job. I used to work with a group at the least there was time built in to write the papers between grants and they included me in that. Now it is multiple overlapping studies and I just do the coordinating aspect but not the more intellectually interesting aspects (writing, brainstorming etc). But as it is grants my job changes every 3-4 years, so I may feel differently next year. I do like that it is only 40 hours, I like the people I work with, and it is better pay than when I was a research associate at an academic institute. It is extremely proactive-oriented, detailed, and time/deadline-based position.   

[SnackDog]

The last major project I worked on was $50 billion and more than 5,000 employees and contractors. The PM was irritating and possibly overpaid or even underqualified, but definitely not an administrative assistant or name-tag printer.   More like a charging rhinocerous with a civil engineering degree.

[MsSindy]

This is definitely the OPs company-specific issue; I've never heard of an AA being promoted to a PM.  BA to PM is more of a typical path.

I'm a PM, but in a non-technical field.  I do agree that if you're going to PM over something like engineering, IT, construction, etc., you better have the knowledge chops for that job, not just going around collecting status from people - that is not a real PM.  I started in IT and new I wasn't cut-out to lead technical teams, so I switched over to the Business side - best decision made for me, the Company, and my beloved technical team!

[Tyler]

I've known a few admins who became PMs.  Most were quite good and deserved it.  One was sleeping with the boss.  ;)

I think the OP is just dealing with a bad corporate management culture.  They're not all like that.  Don't get frustrated in the weeds -- look at the big picture and find a company culture that matches your values.  You'll be a lot happier in the long run. 

[dcheesi]

Here the PM role used to be bundled in with engineering management, and our managers tended to come from the engineering ranks. Corporate decided to split them out into separate positions a while back, but PMO is still pretty much a role for former engineers on the management track.

EDIT: And yes, it's a serious full-time job here as well.

[mm1970]

This is funny because it makes me think about jobs and roles and how cynical I've gotten.

A friend recently posted a job opening on my mommy board, that her sister's company has open:

Job Description:
In addition to standard administration skills, we are looking for someone with a great attitude who is driven to produce greatness, no matter what the task may be. Please note, this position is part time, approximately 20 hours per week.

Daily duties include:
Information Management
Visitor Management
Company Records Management
Communication
Event Planning
Office Management
Office Equipment and Supplies
Budgeting
Desired Skills & Experience:
Experience in an office management or assistant role
Excellent English proficiency
Thorough knowledge of MS Office
Excellent typing skills and computer knowledge
Experience working in an office
Self-motivated and resourceful, with the proven ability to multi-task and operate successfully under tight deadlines and time pressures
Enjoys a fast pace, dynamic, challenging and team-oriented work environment
Strong writing, reading, listening and communications skills
Good interpersonal and teamwork skills
Ability to learn new software programs
Excellent organizational skills
Excellent problem solving skills
Demonstrated ability to effectively prioritize and perform multiple tasks
In addition we want the usual skill set: efficient, organized, and follows through on commitments. You're intelligent, have great analytical skills and pay attention to detail. You're calm under pressure, have a great work ethic and communicate well.

But, more than the usual skills, we want you to push and not accept the mundane. Push for a higher standard. Be proactive. Be open to new ideas and personal feedback. Try stuff, fail and learn from it. 5% of Office Managers are 20 times more efficient than the other 95%. We want you to be the 5%.

5 Reasons Why You Want to Work with Us:
You want to work with a team that is competent, confident, passionate, and focused on achieving big goals.
You want to work on a product that will grow into a billion dollar business, become a household name, and help millions of people.
You want to have a voice and a say in the direction of the company. You don't want to be a "yes" man.
You want to be part of a fun and healthy culture.
You want to work at a company that will provide an opportunity to get to the next level of your career.
And we really want the type of candidate who reads the job description to make sure they are a good fit. So be prepared to submit a cover letter and let us know your favorite flavor of ice cream so we know you read this far. : )




Emphasis mine.  Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems they want the 5% of people who are 20x more efficient...but I'm willing to bet they aren't willing to PAY for that efficiency.  Especially, in fact, since this is a part time job.  So we want someone 20x as effective so we can get many full time work out of you, but for only half time pay!

[mm1970]

Oh apparently, they like to pull that out for every opening:

But, more than the usual skills, we want you to push and not accept the mundane. Push for a higher standard. Be proactive. Be open to new ideas and personal feedback. Try stuff, fail and learn from it. 5% of engineers are 20 times more efficient than 95% of engineers. We want you to be the 5%.

[big_slacker]

I always thought PMs were borderline retarded until I worked for a successful company that live and dies on billable hours and projects coming in on/under schedule and budget. Then you get to see where all the capable PMs work. :)

Still, I'd say in the population there are a lot more bad PMs than good out there. And the bad ones are hinderance to projects when their entire purpose is to make things go more smoothly.

[Bearded Man]

There is a lot of mismanagement and incompetence.

At the end of the day it comes from the top. Either your directors are incompetent, or they're unaware of the reality of what goes on day to day (which really means they are incompetent, because any competent director should have a firm grasp of how things are).

It's the same at my company and it's due to the fact that our directors are morons. They do not know how to run a business, and it shows in all of their personnel decisions, the state of the projects, etc.

I think you are right. All the PM's at my last company got placed there as a result of management incompetence. Whenever there was a problem, they would just add more PM's. Each one of the new PM's would then ask me why there were so many PM's. We had 3 to every technical resource. I looked at him and laughed, then said you will soon see. Within a few weeks they saw that no one was actually managing scope, gathering requirements, or managing anything. The VP expected the technical resources to do that when confronted by me. I and another person asked what the PM's were supposed to do then. NO response.

I walked off the job months later after securing another position and having had enough. I moved my start date up and didn't look back. Within a few weeks it all fell apart for my old employer. Several of the PM's were let go. So were some consultants who were useless. Within a year the VP was terminated as well. The whole practice has all but been disbanded.

I left because it seemed like all levels of management were utter MORONS. I actually white boarded this crap with the CEO and you could see the light bulb go on in his head. Funny enough, I still read the reviews on Glassdoor. That has become the PATTERN of negative reviews for them on Glassdoor. One star and incompetence at all levels of management who clearly have no idea what they are doing; that's nearly every review. Apparently the company is not doing so well and there have been massive layoffs...

My current company, same boat. One of the worst ratings on Glassdoor, far below Walmart or Dish Network. EVERY review touches on the incompetence of the management. I honestly don't know how these people dress themselves. The turnover is so high, most people are gone within months of starting. We've had people come in and work for a few months and then give everyone the proverbial finger on the way out the door to their next job, yelling about how incompetent the management is. Some highly educated people mind you...

Thing is, this is becoming the norm. Even at MS I usually ended up reporting to another vendor who was someone who was literally some cute admin who got promoted to a PM position to manage the other vendor indirectly. These people were so dumb it boggles my mind. One lady couldn't figure out the difference between Internet Explorer and Media Player, but she was blonde and smoking hot, so she was the one to dish out orders to me.

I think staying in such poisonous companies has really killed my spirit, but they seem to be everywhere now. The life span of companies is decreasing at an alarming rate and the idiocracy and dysfunction is seemingly everywhere.

[Miss Prim]

My son is a PM for an international firm that tests engines, transmissions and batteries all related to the auto industry.  He was a dynotech with a Bachelors degree in Technology management.  At his company, they specifically do not hire Engineers as PMs.  Basically because engineers tend to not be good with people.  Sorry, I am probably pissing off a lot of engineers on here!  My son has a very hard job and needs to deal with engineers, dynotechs, higher ups and the company that is contracting the job.  It is a very hard job to juggle and he gets pretty stressed out.  But, he is good at talking to people and motivating his workers. 

Not all project managers are admin. assistants and not all engineers would make good PMs.

                                                                      Miss Prim

[dcheesi]

"People skills! I have PEOPLE SKILLS!!!" ;-)

[bacchi]

Oh apparently, they like to pull that out for every opening:

But, more than the usual skills, we want you to push and not accept the mundane. Push for a higher standard. Be proactive. Be open to new ideas and personal feedback. Try stuff, fail and learn from it. 5% of engineers are 20 times more efficient than 95% of engineers. We want you to be the 5%.

That multiple keeps increasing. Soon it'll be that the best engineers are 50X (!!!1!) more efficient than 99% of engineers.

Of course, only 5% of projects are actually worth a shit. Most of us are working on the next killer app to find someone to take out the trash. Lo-mo-so, ya know?

[Taran Wanderer]

Why are so many administrative assistants promoted to project manager?

1.  People skills.  Engineers have to focus on the negative, pointing out the flaws and then fixing them, so that whatever they are engineering will actually work.  In a constructive environment, this can be fun and uplifting to the engineers, but still viewed as dysfunctional and combative to normal people.  Translating this same approach into project management creates dysfunctional project management, so admin assistants, who have figured out how to deal with all those engineers, and are still normal people, can sometimes make the switch more easily.

2.  Not OCD.  See above.

3.  Non-engineers are less likely to try to jump in and solve the technical problem at hand, and more likely to focus on the resources needed to solve the technical problem.  They can then communicate the resource needs to higher ups more effectively.

4.  Engineers often focus on the direct value-add of the technical solution, and they miss the indirect value add of communication, coordination, and facilitation.  Someone more people oriented brings the value-add with the soft stuff.

I could rattle off more, but those are my initial thoughts.  And for reference, I'm an engineering manager who is constantly trying to balance with a foot in each camp.

[dandarc]

A good project manager is invaluable. A bad one is incomprehensibly frustrating.

I agree with this completely.  Unfortunately, at least where I am, the bad ones seem to really outnumber the good ones.  I can recall working with one good Project Manager in 6 years.  Most of the time, the official project manager is just another person to explain everything to who doesn't understand, care about, nor even remember anything you're saying.  The not remembering a damn thing is the most frustrating thing, at least to me.

[ender]

4.  Engineers often focus on the direct value-add of the technical solution, and they miss the indirect value add of communication, coordination, and facilitation.  Someone more people oriented brings the value-add with the soft stuff.

Yeah this is really the part that makes a good PM really, really valuable.

[pine]

Are admin assistants promoting to PMs affecting your engineering work in anyway? This thread makes you sound whining and douchy.

[coppertop]

This is funny because it makes me think about jobs and roles and how cynical I've gotten.

A friend recently posted a job opening on my mommy board, that her sister's company has open:

Job Description:
In addition to standard administration skills, we are looking for someone with a great attitude who is driven to produce greatness, no matter what the task may be. Please note, this position is part time, approximately 20 hours per week.

Daily duties include:
Information Management
Visitor Management
Company Records Management
Communication
Event Planning
Office Management
Office Equipment and Supplies
Budgeting
Desired Skills & Experience:
Experience in an office management or assistant role
Excellent English proficiency
Thorough knowledge of MS Office
Excellent typing skills and computer knowledge
Experience working in an office
Self-motivated and resourceful, with the proven ability to multi-task and operate successfully under tight deadlines and time pressures
Enjoys a fast pace, dynamic, challenging and team-oriented work environment
Strong writing, reading, listening and communications skills
Good interpersonal and teamwork skills
Ability to learn new software programs
Excellent organizational skills
Excellent problem solving skills
Demonstrated ability to effectively prioritize and perform multiple tasks
In addition we want the usual skill set: efficient, organized, and follows through on commitments. You're intelligent, have great analytical skills and pay attention to detail. You're calm under pressure, have a great work ethic and communicate well.

But, more than the usual skills, we want you to push and not accept the mundane. Push for a higher standard. Be proactive. Be open to new ideas and personal feedback. Try stuff, fail and learn from it. 5% of Office Managers are 20 times more efficient than the other 95%. We want you to be the 5%.

5 Reasons Why You Want to Work with Us:
You want to work with a team that is competent, confident, passionate, and focused on achieving big goals.
You want to work on a product that will grow into a billion dollar business, become a household name, and help millions of people.
You want to have a voice and a say in the direction of the company. You don't want to be a "yes" man.
You want to be part of a fun and healthy culture.
You want to work at a company that will provide an opportunity to get to the next level of your career.
And we really want the type of candidate who reads the job description to make sure they are a good fit. So be prepared to submit a cover letter and let us know your favorite flavor of ice cream so we know you read this far. : )




Emphasis mine.  Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems they want the 5% of people who are 20x more efficient...but I'm willing to bet they aren't willing to PAY for that efficiency.  Especially, in fact, since this is a part time job.  So we want someone 20x as effective so we can get many full time work out of you, but for only half time pay!

Yup.  I see so many job postings where they want a four-year degree, five or more years experience, certifications and oh, yeah - they are willing to go as high as $15 per hour to the qualified candidate!  What a joke.

[Jack]

Yup.  I see so many job postings where they want a four-year degree, five or more years experience, certifications and oh, yeah - they are willing to go as high as $15 per hour to the qualified candidate!  What a joke.

That's code for "we already decided to hire an H1B indentured servant, but we have to pretend to offer the job to Americans so we can claim we couldn't find any."

[Vilgan]

Previously I used to work for a large consulting company where we built our own teams and deployed them for the client. PM/Architect/engineering/QA etc. Now I contract with clients directly on my own and the #1 thing I've noticed is just how really terrible the PMs are most places. It doesn't matter if its a big company, a non profit, or a startup - quality PMs who know what they are doing are far rarer than quality engineers.

It doesn't need to be a full time job and I've rotated between my engineer hat and my new PM hat a lot recently, but SOMEONE has to know how to do it. The difference in efficiency between a highly tuned team w/ someone handling PM and the team cranking out software in a proper agile manner and the haphazard way most places operate are night and day.

Quality PMs exist, but even though the path from novice to expert is a lot shorter than a developer there is still a frequent lack of PMs who know what they are doing.

[Jeremy E.]

Where I work, we have Project Managers, Project Administrators, and administrative assistants. Administrative assistants only need a high school degree with secretarial or administrative experience, after 2 years of experience they can become project administrators, and 2 years later they can become senior project administrators, not able to go higher without a degree. In the Project Management track, it's the same as the engineers track, you need a bachelors degree in project management or electrical engineering to be an associate project manager or associate engineer, 2 years later you can be a 1, 2 more for a 2, 2 more for a 3, 2 more for a 4, and 2 more for senior project manager or senior engineer.