Feeling burned out. Anyone else?

[Nutty]

Agree.  It does sound like a bad manager.  Is this a single case that has evaded detection or is this the corporate culture?  I have seen both in industry.  They aren't recognized by upper management as bad since they get results and no one complains.  Once the complaints start, talk with your coworkers and if a lot start complaining, management can't take the manager's side and say this is a single case if everyone that reports to him is complaining.  Strength in numbers and all.

Best wishes and sounds like it needs to be fixed for your case.

[Roots&Wings]

@dodojojo can you perhaps use sick time or see a therapist and ask for a medical leave of absence to give you time to figure things out?

What you've described with the ongoing, unpredictable threats and retaliation from your manager sounds like an extreme stressor. The symptoms you've described (clenched teeth level stress/hypervigilance, withdrawal/apathy, problems with concentration, focus, sleep disturbance, and fatigue) seem consistent with PTSD-like burnout. The symptoms are causing you significant distress and impairment in functioning.

It's impossible to think clearly in this state. Would you prefer to give yourself some time to figure out possible options before a drastic quit job step?  e.g. could you be moved to a role away from this manager? Or is the company overall a toxic environment?

I found this TED talk helpful for identifying traits of a disfunctional workplace that can create burnout and would be worth leaving, unsure if parts may be helpful for you: https://youtu.be/hFkI69zJzLI?t=389

[CoffeeR]

I found this TED talk helpful for identifying traits of a disfunctional workplace that can create burnout and would be worth leaving, unsure if parts may be helpful for you: https://youtu.be/hFkI69zJzLI?t=389

This was fascinating and informative to me. I've always associated burnout primarily with workload (and possibly other reasons like toxic management which do not apply to me). Even though I saw signs of burnout within me (nowhere near as bad as some here report), I knew I was not over-worked so I was puzzled. This TED talk help me clarify burnout can be due to reasons other than workload. No matter, I walked away from the only full time job I've ever known on May 31. Thanks for sharing this link.

[StarBright]

Seconding thanks for the video link.

The continued focus on health implications of burnout is important for me to see on a regular basis! Glad I watched it.

[Roots&Wings]

Congrats on leaving @CoffeeR ! Plus, @dodojojo, letting your current employer pay for your benefits while you find another position (if that's your preferred route) seems fitting.

[Malee55]

CoffeR good on you for recognising there is a problem and leaving. I hope it all goes well.

DodoJojo please try and look after yourself. Have you had an answer from HR yet?

I am into my second week of sick leave and am having days of feeling calmer. But I know it will take a lot more time and effort.

[dodojojo]

Hi all, truly appreciate the words of wisdom and comfort.  I'm popping in let you know I hear ya--things are happening and I don't want to share too much until the dust settles.  I have been offered a lifeline and though, knowing this company, it could be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, I want to take the opportunity and run with it.  Really, what do I have to lose?  It may get very messy in the transition--a part of me just wants to cut ties and start anew.  But this lifelife will keep me employed and offer a chance to grow.  I've been stagnated for so very long, which is a huge structural beam of the problematic relationship I have with my manager.

If it doesn't work, at least it will buy me some time to look elsewhere and not just quit without anything in sight.

I started attending virtual morning meditation sessions and plan to do so every morning.  I'm also looking into a 8 week long Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction class.  One starts next week and another starts in September.  As much as I'd like help ASAP, I think I may get more out of the class if I give myself time to settle into the beginner stage.  It sounds like a awesome immersive class and I want to have the foundation to get the most out of it.

[Flat9MKE]

@dodojojo Be willing to let go of what you have so you can get what you want.  Think abundance!

[dougules]

I found this TED talk helpful for identifying traits of a disfunctional workplace that can create burnout and would be worth leaving, unsure if parts may be helpful for you: https://youtu.be/hFkI69zJzLI?t=389

That video is a little too real for comfort. 

[Steeze]

so naïve!! turns out having a new born in the mix makes it worse not better, hah. Layer in no sleep, wife has no sleep, house is a disaster. Going to crash and burn into the 1-year mark.

Something has to give - I am in a terrible mood all the time and I am driving my wife insane. She shouldn't have to put up with my attitude, but I just can't seem to shake it no matter what kind of pep talks I give myself before walking in the door. A couple hours at home and all that "No expectations, no disappointments" mindset goes right out the window.

[mspym]

@Steeze you don't have to blow up your life so thoroughly unless you really want to. You have more options than you think because you are right in the middle of a very standard major life adjustment. So think about how you could reduce the overall pressure so that you and your wife can get an adequate amount of sleep, because that is your baseline stressor.

Of the top of my head
- you take some time off and take over main household duties while your wife works to cover expenses
- your wife takes some time off, see above
- sleeping in separate rooms and one of you takes lead on the baby. When it's your night, you take the baby in for feedings and that's all. This way you each get some sleep.
- Use your stash to help ease the other stressors:
      - hire a cleaner to help with the disaster zone
      - food delivery/meal-kits/online groceries
- When you are in a terrible mood and driving your wife insane, strap the baby to your chest and go for a walk. This gives you some bonding time and exercise and just lowers the temperature on the situation.

Feel free to ignore this unsolicited advice, I just think you have more leverage than you think you do. You also don't sounded married to your job, so why not take some time off.

[Steeze]

@Steeze you don't have to blow up your life so thoroughly unless you really want to. You have more options than you think because you are right in the middle of a very standard major life adjustment. So think about how you could reduce the overall pressure so that you and your wife can get an adequate amount of sleep, because that is your baseline stressor.

Of the top of my head
- you take some time off and take over main household duties while your wife works to cover expenses
- your wife takes some time off, see above
- sleeping in separate rooms and one of you takes lead on the baby. When it's your night, you take the baby in for feedings and that's all. This way you each get some sleep.
- Use your stash to help ease the other stressors:
      - hire a cleaner to help with the disaster zone
      - food delivery/meal-kits/online groceries
- When you are in a terrible mood and driving your wife insane, strap the baby to your chest and go for a walk. This gives you some bonding time and exercise and just lowers the temperature on the situation.

Feel free to ignore this unsolicited advice, I just think you have more leverage than you think you do. You also don't sounded married to your job, so why not take some time off.

Nah I appreciate it - need somewhere to vent, any thoughtfulness is welcome. Hopefully things improve soon and she forgives me for being so burned out and irritable.

[mspym]

Nah I appreciate it - need somewhere to vent, any thoughtfulness is welcome. Hopefully things improve soon and she forgives me for being so burned out and irritable.

You know what helps things improve? Taking actions to deal with your burn-out instead of hoping it miraculously goes away on its own.
: )

I'm rooting for you here. You're in the trenches right now and the only way through heavy ground is as lightly as possible. What can you take off your collective plate?

[GuitarStv]

@Steeze you don't have to blow up your life so thoroughly unless you really want to. You have more options than you think because you are right in the middle of a very standard major life adjustment. So think about how you could reduce the overall pressure so that you and your wife can get an adequate amount of sleep, because that is your baseline stressor.

Of the top of my head
- you take some time off and take over main household duties while your wife works to cover expenses
- your wife takes some time off, see above
- sleeping in separate rooms and one of you takes lead on the baby. When it's your night, you take the baby in for feedings and that's all. This way you each get some sleep.
- Use your stash to help ease the other stressors:
      - hire a cleaner to help with the disaster zone
      - food delivery/meal-kits/online groceries
- When you are in a terrible mood and driving your wife insane, strap the baby to your chest and go for a walk. This gives you some bonding time and exercise and just lowers the temperature on the situation.

Feel free to ignore this unsolicited advice, I just think you have more leverage than you think you do. You also don't sounded married to your job, so why not take some time off.

Nah I appreciate it - need somewhere to vent, any thoughtfulness is welcome. Hopefully things improve soon and she forgives me for being so burned out and irritable.

Having a newborn is very difficult.  I was totally unprepared for how hard it made life for an extended period of time.  Sleep deprivation, concerns about the kid, concerns about the wife, huge change to so many areas of life, relationship stress, etc.  My advice would be to do ANYTHING you can to make your life easier before that screaming pink dictator arrives.  Definitely work to get irritability under handle now, because it's not gonna get any better.

Best of luck!

[charis]

Nah I appreciate it - need somewhere to vent, any thoughtfulness is welcome. Hopefully things improve soon and she forgives me for being so burned out and irritable.

You know what helps things improve? Taking actions to deal with your burn-out instead of hoping it miraculously goes away on its own.
: )

I'm rooting for you here. You're in the trenches right now and the only way through heavy ground is as lightly as possible. What can you take off your collective plate?

Agreed. This is the second thread that I've read in which you've received vented about the situation without addressing specific steps you could try. Lack of sleep makes everything terrible.

[Steeze]

Nah I appreciate it - need somewhere to vent, any thoughtfulness is welcome. Hopefully things improve soon and she forgives me for being so burned out and irritable.

You know what helps things improve? Taking actions to deal with your burn-out instead of hoping it miraculously goes away on its own.
: )

I'm rooting for you here. You're in the trenches right now and the only way through heavy ground is as lightly as possible. What can you take off your collective plate?

Agreed. This is the second thread that I've read in which you've received vented about the situation without addressing specific steps you could try. Lack of sleep makes everything terrible.

Fair enough -

I have been advocating, begging practically, to hire help for a month now, either a nanny or cleaning service, but DW doesn’t want strangers in the house. Turns out my FIL is going to come stay with us for 3-4 months starting in August, which sounds crazy to most people, but he is awesome to have around and has stayed for over 2 months before without any trouble.

So I just need to suck it up and not be a drag for a month and help will be on the way. Of course her mat leave is over then as well, so that is a whole other factor, but seemingly it should be easier with a third person in the mix. Plus FIL is a great cook and chefs up authentic dishes 3x a day, goes grocery shopping for fresh ingredients each day, and keeps the kitchen clean, insists on not letting us lift a finger. Basically the best of house guests.

I once had a roommate “E” who would do the dishes constantly - for everyone in the house (we had 5 roommates). I asked why he did it and why it didn’t piss him off that he was the only one doing it. He told me that he enjoyed when the kitchen was clean and there were no dishes in the sink. He understood that not everyone lives that way, so he did it to make himself happy, and he said it didn’t bother him at all to do it and actually brought him some happiness when it was done each time. He said when something is important to you, you have to take it upon yourself to make it happen and not expect others to live up to your expectations.

Just have to channel My roommate E.

[henramdrea]

@Steeze, you had an awesome roomate!  Sounds like I/we could learn his ways.

I know choosing one's battles is very important.  There's so many battles to be had in this life.  Anytime we can eliminate one, it's a small victory!

[Steeze]

@Steeze, you had an awesome roomate!  Sounds like I/we could learn his ways.

I know choosing one's battles is very important.  There's so many battles to be had in this life.  Anytime we can eliminate one, it's a small victory!

Yeah it was/is a mind blowing lesson at the time. I had just moved out of a house with 4 roommates where I was the one doing the dishes all the time because the other guys were slobs. Difference was I was pissed off every single time doing it. Did it, but did it with an attitude. Me and E were doing the exact same thing for the same reason - except he was happy to do it and I was mad at everyone else for not doing it. He didn’t expect anyone to do it and I did. Guess I still haven’t learned that lesson, even though I’ve been aware of it for some years.

[fuzzy math]

Gosh.. the OP should rename this the 39 yr old burnout hangout chat! I would have participated much sooner.

My situation has been awful, lots of mental games in a political healthcare organization. I was not functioning well for an extended period of time, to the point where I was so tired I would come home and collapse into bed for a couple hours before dinner and I wasn't even brushing my teeth at bedtime.

Took half of June off to be with my kids and have an action packed staycation with day trips and lots of gluttonous excesses. Came back to work and not only have things down shifted for the time being, but I feel like Peter from Office Space after he's been hypnotized. I am off for another 1.75 weeks starting in a couple days and I'm telling myself I can maintain this feeling of hypnotization when I come back. I don't even want to type up all the BS that's happened, its not worth calling it into my head space. I think it also helps that I can FU money this job starting in January, and I'm already able to feel the effect of saying to myself "I'm choosing to continue for X period of time" instead of "I'm stuck"

I sympathize with so many of you here. Your stories were heard and validated, you matter even if your dumbass employers don't treat you like you do.

[effigy98]

Separate your work office on one power outlet. Get an automated power plug. Set it to go on and off from 9pm to 5pm or something like that. It will force you to stop working at a set time.

[dodojojo]

Well, my lifeline was that I was/am being moved to a new project.  Problem is that I'm still within the same team and as part of my transition, I remain available to the old manager as things pop up.  In the ideal workplace relationship, of course I'd be open to helping and answering questions. But old manager, as I suspect would be the case, is intent on airing out grievances and highlighting everything I have done wrong.  Nope, not going to let this work relationship just end--he's going to get his.  So I'm in transition limbo of starting a new project but still on the hook to working for/with this manager.  It seems futile to rebut every point in his emails because he's just going to through a decade's worth of work and see what he can throw up that will stick.  I want to concentrate on the new project but my mental real estate is stuck dealing with an angry vindictive manager in an indefinite transition.  I've been assured the transition will not be indefinite but knowing this guy, I don't think he's just going to drop it.   

[dougules]

If you went to HR and told them you can't work with him any more, do you think they would be supportive?

[dodojojo]

Don't want to get into company structure but it doesn't quite work that way here. Being transitioned out of the project was similar to going to HR and asking to stop working with him. So that process is ongoing. Problem is basically as long as we are on the same team and same company, he has plausible reasons to demand I address issues and problems that pop up. And he will make sure all the issues and problems are found.

I hate to be binary thinking, that if I just quit, all of the above disappears. They would, but then I have a new set of problems. I want to give the new project a go and I appreciate the 2nd level manager making the move but it's clouded by still being tethered to the manager. One who is pissed off. 2nd level manager reassures me, but I don't know how much she will back me if she's always told how much I screwed up.

[dougules]

What do you think the 2nd level manager would likely do if you told her you couldn't work with the 1st level manager any more?

[ChickenStash]

I found this TED talk helpful for identifying traits of a disfunctional workplace that can create burnout and would be worth leaving, unsure if parts may be helpful for you: https://youtu.be/hFkI69zJzLI?t=389

That video was more than a little scary and I can see myself in the examples and the symptom lists. Wow. My overall health has been on the down swing lately and seeing burnout as a possible, maybe probable, cause freaks me out.

[Metalcat]

I found this TED talk helpful for identifying traits of a disfunctional workplace that can create burnout and would be worth leaving, unsure if parts may be helpful for you: https://youtu.be/hFkI69zJzLI?t=389

That video was more than a little scary and I can see myself in the examples and the symptom lists. Wow. My overall health has been on the down swing lately and seeing burnout as a possible, maybe probable, cause freaks me out.

People really underestimate the impact of chronic burnout, even when they're drowning in it.

[JJ-]

I too have been feeling this quite a bit over the last year+, but most notably over the last few months. The administrative workload has picked up considerably for me and unfortunately project schedules don't have room for administrivia, so they keep demanding. I find myself letting quality of work suffer due to a quantity of time issue. The interesting thing is I just thought I was tired, but I've had 3 Mondays in a row where I've been unable to fall asleep until after 2 after having to pick back up the work that morning.

I thought I would be better at boundaries after downshifting to 3/4 time and saying no, but I'm not very good at it yet. I found myself saying "project complete" when I said here's the production app, but then when the customer had issues implementing, I said well I guess I'm not done yet and found myself digging in how to help them implement. There's an easy fix and a higher LOE fix, and even the extra time to implement the easy fix just about killed him. I keep saying once the easy fix is implemented it's done. Hopefully I can stick to "done" this time.

I noticed also when the manager didn't bat an eye when I said project can't be put down yet. Made me realize I have to look out for me.

[MudPuppy]

I’m a bit earlier in my 30s but I had a realization in the middle of the night that I’m done. I’ll take a pretty noticeable pay cut and we’ll be solidly back under 100k household income again, but I don’t care anymore. Might stay with my employer, might not, but I’m updating my resume and I will be dipping from inpatient care as soon as someone makes me a decent offer. I do wonder how COVID affected this situation, but it’s not much use in dwelling on something that can’t be changed.

[Luke Warm]

i watched that ted talk and it struck a chord. i guess it's time to start taking my burnout seriously.

[JJ-]

i watched that ted talk and it struck a chord. i guess it's time to start taking my burnout seriously.

No joke.

[scantee]

I’m really at my limit now and know I need to make a change soon. In two weeks, I have a two week vacation when I’ll do some soul searching about what my next move should be.

My plan until recently was to stay in my current job through July 2022 to collect my bonus then either take six months off or make a pointed shift to contract consulting work. The benefit of that plan is purely financial as it would allow me to do some extra saving to allow for up to a year without work.

Now I’m not sure I can make it that long. My current plan is to get to the end of the year and assess the situation at that point. I’d like to ask for three months unpaid time off however if my work will not grant that I’ll have to quit.

[JJ-]

I’m really at my limit now and know I need to make a change soon. In two weeks, I have a two week vacation when I’ll do some soul searching about what my next move should be.

My plan until recently was to stay in my current job through July 2022 to collect my bonus then either take six months off or make a pointed shift to contract consulting work. The benefit of that plan is purely financial as it would allow me to do some extra saving to allow for up to a year without work.

Now I’m not sure I can make it that long. My current plan is to get to the end of the year and assess the situation at that point. I’d like to ask for three months unpaid time off however if my work will not grant that I’ll have to quit.

Another year at your limit seems to be a long time for a year off. Let us know what your soul searching ends up with. Maybe you already know the answer but just need to think about it some more?

[dodojojo]

What do you think the 2nd level manager would likely do if you told her you couldn't work with the 1st level manager any more?

2nd level manager preempted that conversation by asking me to be professional and not taking things personally--take one for the company pep talk.  2nd LM promised that this is temporary.

My concern isn't so much that he will be knocking on my door.  He's actually cut me off. That I'm completely happy with. It's his way controlling the narrative--he kicked me out, instead of my leaving...It's more anxiety that given time and volume of archived work, he'll find things to harp on.  Basically said he has a lot to do but he will review all my files--be on standby. He's proven to be petty so I worry he will mold mountains out of molehills. So it's not just an email asking for a missing file.  No, it's that followed by paragraphs of the impact and how it burdens his already inhumane workload, blah, blah, blah.

On the plus side, I seem to be making good impressions with the new project.  Obviously, I want to make it work because I can't have two team managers pissed off with me...I'm struggling to get going due to above anxiety.  I'm telling myself to let it go--concentrate and make the most of the new opportunity and let the cards fall where they may.  Trying to convince myself to listen...

[dougules]

What do you think the 2nd level manager would likely do if you told her you couldn't work with the 1st level manager any more?

2nd level manager preempted that conversation by asking me to be professional and not taking things personally--take one for the company pep talk.  2nd LM promised that this is temporary.

My concern isn't so much that he will be knocking on my door.  He's actually cut me off. That I'm completely happy with. It's his way controlling the narrative--he kicked me out, instead of my leaving...It's more anxiety that given time and volume of archived work, he'll find things to harp on.  Basically said he has a lot to do but he will review all my files--be on standby. He's proven to be petty so I worry he will mold mountains out of molehills. So it's not just an email asking for a missing file.  No, it's that followed by paragraphs of the impact and how it burdens his already inhumane workload, blah, blah, blah.

Your situation is still pretty toxic.  It's unfortunate that your 2nd LM didn't see it that way unless she honestly believes you'll be free from him soon.  Realistically, honestly, how long do you think he's going to be in a position to hold things over your head? 

Have you managed to see what other job opportunities are out there?  One of life's terrible ironies is that when you're burnt out you don't have the energy or mental health to do what it takes to fix the situation. 

On the plus side, I seem to be making good impressions with the new project.  Obviously, I want to make it work because I can't have two team managers pissed off with me...I'm struggling to get going due to above anxiety.  I'm telling myself to let it go--concentrate and make the most of the new opportunity and let the cards fall where they may.  Trying to convince myself to listen...

Are you seeing a therapist?  It sounds like you're in a position where you don't really need to be concerned about his scheming.  You'll be fine financially no matter what he pulls, right?  Unfortunately it can be really hard to internalize that.  You shouldn't deal with something like this alone.   

[dodojojo]

Your situation is still pretty toxic.  It's unfortunate that your 2nd LM didn't see it that way unless she honestly believes you'll be free from him soon.  Realistically, honestly, how long do you think he's going to be in a position to hold things over your head? 

Yeah, this the fuel for the anxiety.  Due to project deadlines throughout the year, the duration can be ongoing until late next spring.  This is simply the worst thing I'm dealing with--it's the knock on the door.  If I had just quit a month ago--he would just have to carry on and deal.  Since I'm still at the company, this is the devil's deal.

Have you managed to see what other job opportunities are out there?  One of life's terrible ironies is that when you're burnt out you don't have the energy or mental health to do what it takes to fix the situation.

Not addressed here, but have hangups about job search.  It's the elephant in the room and I don't know if I will ever reveal all on MMM. But it dovetails into your point about therapy.  I have had years of it though the last sessions were about 10 years ago.  I'm a proponent of therapy but there are limits and I felt I had reached a point where it had been helpful but it wasn't going anywhere after that.  Maybe I needed a change in therapist or type of therapy.

[Metalcat]

Your situation is still pretty toxic.  It's unfortunate that your 2nd LM didn't see it that way unless she honestly believes you'll be free from him soon.  Realistically, honestly, how long do you think he's going to be in a position to hold things over your head? 

Yeah, this the fuel for the anxiety.  Due to project deadlines throughout the year, the duration can be ongoing until late next spring.  This is simply the worst thing I'm dealing with--it's the knock on the door.  If I had just quit a month ago--he would just have to carry on and deal.  Since I'm still at the company, this is the devil's deal.

Have you managed to see what other job opportunities are out there?  One of life's terrible ironies is that when you're burnt out you don't have the energy or mental health to do what it takes to fix the situation.

Not addressed here, but have hangups about job search.  It's the elephant in the room and I don't know if I will ever reveal all on MMM. But it dovetails into your point about therapy.  I have had years of it though the last sessions were about 10 years ago.  I'm a proponent of therapy but there are limits and I felt I had reached a point where it had been helpful but it wasn't going anywhere after that.  Maybe I needed a change in therapist or type of therapy.

It's not unusual to need to change therapists once you have hit your productive limit with one, even if they are excellent.

Therapy progression depends on *you*, not the therapist. This is something most people don't understand. The therapist is just a tool you use to get a therapeutic result, and sometimes you need to switch up the tools you are using to get at things from a different angle.

For example, I can't get much therapeutically out of a therapist who isn't comfortable being extremely direct, I just end up spinning my wheels with the ultra gentle ones. But the gentle ones are the perfect tool for a lot of people in crisis.

Not long ago I retired an excellent psychologist who I had been seeing for over 3 years. I made huge progress with her, but then eventually our therapeutic relationship hit it's limits because I had changed so much through my work with her that she was no longer the right fit for what I needed.

Here's my basic metric:
If you aren't getting consistent, regular sleep and waking up feeling generally at peace with the world, you probably need therapy. And if therapy isn't getting you closer to that state, then you probably need a different therapist.

[StarBright]

This feels related to this thread - burnout/vacation/boundaries.

I just got back from vacation. It was the longest vacation I've taken in over a decade (it was a week).

I have a deadline heavy job and no one to cover me, so I accept that there is a fair amount of "extra" work that needs to be done on either side of vacation to ensure that deadlines are met.

But it is amazing to me (and ticking me off) how people are framing their requests now that I'm back, "Don't you feel SO rested? I hope you are refreshed because this proposal is due tomorrow at 10am . . " "You ready to hit the ground running?" "Don't you feel like a new person?"

Probably because I have few F*cks to give at this point, I am being painfully honest, "Nope, not really rested, 5 days isn't enough after the last year." "I feel like a woman who took her first full week off in over a decade, it was nice but not enough."

I am still doing the work, and putting in the hours, and even responding in a pleasant way, but am not enabling this "Star only requires rest once a decade" crap. And people are complaining about how grouchy I am. I understand that I am not going along with the social niceties of the office, but honestly, that isn't helping any of us. I mentor three younger women at my company and I am seeing them make the same mistakes I made at the same age. I want them to have healthier boundaries than I did/do!

One month till I submit my request to cut back my hours.

[dougules]

Have you managed to see what other job opportunities are out there?  One of life's terrible ironies is that when you're burnt out you don't have the energy or mental health to do what it takes to fix the situation.

Not addressed here, but have hangups about job search.  It's the elephant in the room and I don't know if I will ever reveal all on MMM. But it dovetails into your point about therapy.  I have had years of it though the last sessions were about 10 years ago.  I'm a proponent of therapy but there are limits and I felt I had reached a point where it had been helpful but it wasn't going anywhere after that.  Maybe I needed a change in therapist or type of therapy.

Totally.  Me, too.  I'm a little leary of airing my dirty laundry to the whole internet, too, but at one point just looking at my resume could ruin my whole afternoon.  Several years of therapy got me to the point where it's not a that big a deal.  That's why I said "energy or mental health."  I'm not a medical professional, but I think problems with self-worth are as much a symptom of mental health problems as much as they are a cause. 

Just as a thought exercise, how would your career and finances go if you just put in your notice now and jumped letting yourself figure out the details after you'd had some time to recover?

It's not unusual to need to change therapists once you have hit your productive limit with one, even if they are excellent.

Therapy progression depends on *you*, not the therapist. This is something most people don't understand. The therapist is just a tool you use to get a therapeutic result, and sometimes you need to switch up the tools you are using to get at things from a different angle.

For example, I can't get much therapeutically out of a therapist who isn't comfortable being extremely direct, I just end up spinning my wheels with the ultra gentle ones. But the gentle ones are the perfect tool for a lot of people in crisis.

Not long ago I retired an excellent psychologist who I had been seeing for over 3 years. I made huge progress with her, but then eventually our therapeutic relationship hit it's limits because I had changed so much through my work with her that she was no longer the right fit for what I needed.

Based on things you've said and my own experience, using therapy efficiently seems like a complex skill/art.  Is there a how-to guide or something?

I think people tend to give up on it easily because of a lack of knowledge of how to get results from it.  My mother has been having serious trouble mentally coping with some major chronic health problems.  When I mentioned therapy, she was resistant because of a previous therapist being completely ineffective for her.  She's well aware that navigating the non-mental healthcare system can be something that requires a lot of skill, but I don't think she made the leap to seeing mental healthcare in the same way. 

[Metalcat]

Have you managed to see what other job opportunities are out there?  One of life's terrible ironies is that when you're burnt out you don't have the energy or mental health to do what it takes to fix the situation.

Not addressed here, but have hangups about job search.  It's the elephant in the room and I don't know if I will ever reveal all on MMM. But it dovetails into your point about therapy.  I have had years of it though the last sessions were about 10 years ago.  I'm a proponent of therapy but there are limits and I felt I had reached a point where it had been helpful but it wasn't going anywhere after that.  Maybe I needed a change in therapist or type of therapy.

Totally.  Me, too.  I'm a little leary of airing my dirty laundry to the whole internet, too, but at one point just looking at my resume could ruin my whole afternoon.  Several years of therapy got me to the point where it's not a that big a deal.  That's why I said "energy or mental health."  I'm not a medical professional, but I think problems with self-worth are as much a symptom of mental health problems as much as they are a cause. 

Just as a thought exercise, how would your career and finances go if you just put in your notice now and jumped letting yourself figure out the details after you'd had some time to recover?

It's not unusual to need to change therapists once you have hit your productive limit with one, even if they are excellent.

Therapy progression depends on *you*, not the therapist. This is something most people don't understand. The therapist is just a tool you use to get a therapeutic result, and sometimes you need to switch up the tools you are using to get at things from a different angle.

For example, I can't get much therapeutically out of a therapist who isn't comfortable being extremely direct, I just end up spinning my wheels with the ultra gentle ones. But the gentle ones are the perfect tool for a lot of people in crisis.

Not long ago I retired an excellent psychologist who I had been seeing for over 3 years. I made huge progress with her, but then eventually our therapeutic relationship hit it's limits because I had changed so much through my work with her that she was no longer the right fit for what I needed.

Based on things you've said and my own experience, using therapy efficiently seems like a complex skill/art.  Is there a how-to guide or something?

I think people tend to give up on it easily because of a lack of knowledge of how to get results from it.  My mother has been having serious trouble mentally coping with some major chronic health problems.  When I mentioned therapy, she was resistant because of a previous therapist being completely ineffective for her.  She's well aware that navigating the non-mental healthcare system can be something that requires a lot of skill, but I don't think she made the leap to seeing mental healthcare in the same way.

Kind of. It's more that people need to be willing to try multiple therapists until they get results. How to use therapy becomes intuitive once it starts working.

In fact, the more knowledgeable you are about therapy, the more difficult it is to make it effective.

The only skill needed is persistence and willingness to keep trying until you find the right fit.

[Roots&Wings]

Just as a thought exercise, how would your career and finances go if you just put in your notice now and jumped letting yourself figure out the details after you'd had some time to recover?

I ran the numbers on healthcare.gov for health insurance, and this route (jump ship first, figure out details later) would cause considerable stress at least in my situation.

Consider using your available leave time/benefits/FMLA/disability to figure things out. This all happened on your employer's dime, hopefully you can use the benefits available to you to figure out a path ahead.

@StarBright good luck with your part-time transition! Cutting back hours would be ideal for a lot of people, but then you can lose so many benefits it can make it a tough choice.

[dougules]

In fact, the more knowledgeable you are about therapy, the more difficult it is to make it effective.

?

[Metalcat]

In fact, the more knowledgeable you are about therapy, the more difficult it is to make it effective.

?

What part is confusing?

Perhaps I can clarify though that I don't mean that it makes therapy less effective, it just raises the bar for proper fit with the therapist.

I have only entry level training in clinical counselling, and I feel quite comfortable handling most cases of serious, acute trauma, but I wouldn't have anywhere near the skill set to handle someone who has had decades of therapy.

After a certain point, there's no low hanging fruit left.

[dougules]

In fact, the more knowledgeable you are about therapy, the more difficult it is to make it effective.

?

What part is confusing?

Perhaps I can clarify though that I don't mean that it makes therapy less effective, it just raises the bar for proper fit with the therapist.

I have only entry level training in clinical counselling, and I feel quite comfortable handling most cases of serious, acute trauma, but I wouldn't have anywhere near the skill set to handle someone who has had decades of therapy.

After a certain point, there's no low hanging fruit left.

Ok.  That makes sense. 

[dodojojo]

Just as a thought exercise, how would your career and finances go if you just put in your notice now and jumped letting yourself figure out the details after you'd had some time to recover?

Short term, have cash to last 12-15 months. I don't have a problem with short term unemployment, I would love to take a break.  It's long term unemployment which I am most fearful of.

Long term, I worry about ageism in a job search and my lack of a technical or hard skill.  I am also an individual contributor so no managerial or people experience to play up.  I'm in a company that pays far more for my skills and experience than I would likely command in other sectors in which I have worked.

If the worst happens and I'd probably muddle through.  Due to MMM-lite life, if I never contribute another penny to my investments, I'm on track to FI at 63/64.  So, "normal" retirement is entirely possible.  I won't end up under a bridge but it wouldn't be the earlier FI date I have envisioned.

I should probably map it out.  If I quit, I get rid of the biggest agitation in my life but do I set myself up for emotional and mental issues related to unemployment or underemployment?  I know this is a sure sign that I likely am a burnout--I hate the thought of giving up, running away from the problem, etc.  I'm afraid I will withdraw and stew if I feel like I gave up. 

There's a lot of paddling underwater as I'm sure it's for many others on the forum.  If it was simply finance, it would be an easy decision.  In the background, there is the ego, self expectation, family obligations and circumstances, higher healthcare cost for myself and pets, etc.

[Metalcat]

Just as a thought exercise, how would your career and finances go if you just put in your notice now and jumped letting yourself figure out the details after you'd had some time to recover?

Short term, have cash to last 12-15 months. I don't have a problem with short term unemployment, I would love to take a break.  It's long term unemployment which I am most fearful of.

Long term, I worry about ageism in a job search and my lack of a technical or hard skill.  I am also an individual contributor so no managerial or people experience to play up.  I'm in a company that pays far more for my skills and experience than I would likely command in other sectors in which I have worked.

If the worst happens and I'd probably muddle through.  Due to MMM-lite life, if I never contribute another penny to my investments, I'm on track to FI at 63/64.  So, "normal" retirement is entirely possible.  I won't end up under a bridge but it wouldn't be the earlier FI date I have envisioned.

I should probably map it out.  If I quit, I get rid of the biggest agitation in my life but do I set myself up for emotional and mental issues related to unemployment or underemployment?  I know this is a sure sign that I likely am a burnout--I hate the thought of giving up, running away from the problem, etc.  I'm afraid I will withdraw and stew if I feel like I gave up. 

There's a lot of paddling underwater as I'm sure it's for many others on the forum.  If it was simply finance, it would be an easy decision.  In the background, there is the ego, self expectation, family obligations and circumstances, higher healthcare cost for myself and pets, etc.

Or you might quit, take some time to heal, regroup, figure out that the sky did not fall, learn to not base your identity on bullshit external ego-driven crap, and figure out your next steps from a healthier and happier place.

[mm1970]

This feels related to this thread - burnout/vacation/boundaries.

I just got back from vacation. It was the longest vacation I've taken in over a decade (it was a week).

I have a deadline heavy job and no one to cover me, so I accept that there is a fair amount of "extra" work that needs to be done on either side of vacation to ensure that deadlines are met.

But it is amazing to me (and ticking me off) how people are framing their requests now that I'm back, "Don't you feel SO rested? I hope you are refreshed because this proposal is due tomorrow at 10am . . " "You ready to hit the ground running?" "Don't you feel like a new person?"

Probably because I have few F*cks to give at this point, I am being painfully honest, "Nope, not really rested, 5 days isn't enough after the last year." "I feel like a woman who took her first full week off in over a decade, it was nice but not enough."

I am still doing the work, and putting in the hours, and even responding in a pleasant way, but am not enabling this "Star only requires rest once a decade" crap. And people are complaining about how grouchy I am. I understand that I am not going along with the social niceties of the office, but honestly, that isn't helping any of us. I mentor three younger women at my company and I am seeing them make the same mistakes I made at the same age. I want them to have healthier boundaries than I did/do!

One month till I submit my request to cut back my hours.

I came back after a week off and my stress level was immediately off the charts.  It's insane - the work just keeps getting piled on.  And thus, I change the ways I try to keep track of ALL THE things - it helps for awhile, but isn't a final solution.  I did pretty well in a telecon today where the boss said "why did this slip through the cracks?  Who dropped the ball that we don't have enough raw materials for this project?"

I simply said "honestly?  Probably nobody."  In reality, any new project that we are developing has a development cycle of over one year.  At a minimum, 7-8 months.  That's 3-4 months after designing the product to make sure we get our raw materials.  The longest lead time on those is usually 8 weeks.

Well, this one, suddenly, the customer wants a 2 month turnaround.  Maybe we can do that.  But we don't have enough raw materials.  Why?  Well, we never try and turn something around in 2 months AND have you seen lead times in the whole electronics industry?  It's a hot mess right now.  Lead times are doubling.  We can add a line in our product introduction process to take a look at raw materials needed earlier on in the process - but at best that will save us a little bit of time.

@StarBright, you really need to take 2 weeks off.  I do that about every 2 years.  About 10 years ago, when I was in my early 40s, was the first time I ever did that.  I could not BELIEVE how refreshing and relaxing it was.  It took me four days to really unplug from work.  And then, WOW, another week and a half??  It was glorious.

[MoseyingAlong]

@StarBright, you really need to take 2 weeks off.  I do that about every 2 years.  About 10 years ago, when I was in my early 40s, was the first time I ever did that.  I could not BELIEVE how refreshing and relaxing it was.  It took me four days to really unplug from work.  And then, WOW, another week and a half??  It was glorious.

Amen to taking 2 weeks at a time.
One of my commanders in the Air Force strongly encouraged everyone to take 2 weeks at least once a year. For me, the first week was rest and recovery and then the second week was the actual fun one. As @mm1970 says, "It was glorious."

[Plina]

@StarBright, you really need to take 2 weeks off.  I do that about every 2 years.  About 10 years ago, when I was in my early 40s, was the first time I ever did that.  I could not BELIEVE how refreshing and relaxing it was.  It took me four days to really unplug from work.  And then, WOW, another week and a half??  It was glorious.

Amen to taking 2 weeks at a time.
One of my commanders in the Air Force strongly encouraged everyone to take 2 weeks at least once a year. For me, the first week was rest and recovery and then the second week was the actual fun one. As @mm1970 says, "It was glorious."

Why would you not use your vacation time every year?

[Weisass]

Why would you not use your vacation time every year?

Cosign on this one.

I'm lucky that my work offers 4 weeks vacation a year, plus 2 for continuing education. I never leave time off on the table.

[ender]

Plenty of companies with generous vacation policies for # of days still don't like people taking more than 1 week at a time.