Author Topic: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?  (Read 58102 times)

dougules

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #250 on: June 14, 2021, 09:03:52 AM »
How do you define what is and isn't burnout?  Most people have a general idea of what it is, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy concept in most people's heads.  I think it makes it easier to dismiss if you don't have a concrete understanding of exactly what it looks like. 

The stupid thing about work environments that push people to burnout is that it just gives the illusion of increasing productivity.  It's more just increasing short-term productivity at a big cost to long-term productivity.  You either get massive turnover or people who are too demoralized to do more than the bare minimum or avoid mistakes.  I think it also makes people focus on the easiest way to take care of the short term instead of performing tasks that may take more time and energy up front but pave the way to make future work easier and more efficient.  I think it may also make people dramatic which undercuts benefits you might get from coworkers collaborating or passing on knowledge. 

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #251 on: June 14, 2021, 11:02:59 AM »
How do you define what is and isn't burnout?  Most people have a general idea of what it is, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy concept in most people's heads.  I think it makes it easier to dismiss if you don't have a concrete understanding of exactly what it looks like. 

The stupid thing about work environments that push people to burnout is that it just gives the illusion of increasing productivity.  It's more just increasing short-term productivity at a big cost to long-term productivity.  You either get massive turnover or people who are too demoralized to do more than the bare minimum or avoid mistakes.  I think it also makes people focus on the easiest way to take care of the short term instead of performing tasks that may take more time and energy up front but pave the way to make future work easier and more efficient.  I think it may also make people dramatic which undercuts benefits you might get from coworkers collaborating or passing on knowledge.

It's really simple: is your mental and physical well being getting worse over time? If yes, you are burning out, because what burnout means, is that you are functioning beyond your adaptive capacity.
You either need to reduce your strain or increase your adaptive capacity.



Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #252 on: June 14, 2021, 11:51:58 AM »
How do you define what is and isn't burnout?  Most people have a general idea of what it is, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy concept in most people's heads.  I think it makes it easier to dismiss if you don't have a concrete understanding of exactly what it looks like. 

The stupid thing about work environments that push people to burnout is that it just gives the illusion of increasing productivity.  It's more just increasing short-term productivity at a big cost to long-term productivity.  You either get massive turnover or people who are too demoralized to do more than the bare minimum or avoid mistakes.  I think it also makes people focus on the easiest way to take care of the short term instead of performing tasks that may take more time and energy up front but pave the way to make future work easier and more efficient.  I think it may also make people dramatic which undercuts benefits you might get from coworkers collaborating or passing on knowledge.

It's really simple: is your mental and physical well being getting worse over time? If yes, you are burning out, because what burnout means, is that you are functioning beyond your adaptive capacity.
You either need to reduce your strain or increase your adaptive capacity.

How do you increase your adaptive capacity?

dougules

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #253 on: June 14, 2021, 12:07:11 PM »
How do you define what is and isn't burnout?  Most people have a general idea of what it is, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy concept in most people's heads.  I think it makes it easier to dismiss if you don't have a concrete understanding of exactly what it looks like. 

The stupid thing about work environments that push people to burnout is that it just gives the illusion of increasing productivity.  It's more just increasing short-term productivity at a big cost to long-term productivity.  You either get massive turnover or people who are too demoralized to do more than the bare minimum or avoid mistakes.  I think it also makes people focus on the easiest way to take care of the short term instead of performing tasks that may take more time and energy up front but pave the way to make future work easier and more efficient.  I think it may also make people dramatic which undercuts benefits you might get from coworkers collaborating or passing on knowledge.

It's really simple: is your mental and physical well being getting worse over time? If yes, you are burning out, because what burnout means, is that you are functioning beyond your adaptive capacity.
You either need to reduce your strain or increase your adaptive capacity.

Not trying to be obtuse, but that still seems kind of vague. 

OtherJen

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #254 on: June 14, 2021, 01:20:43 PM »
How do you define what is and isn't burnout?  Most people have a general idea of what it is, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy concept in most people's heads.  I think it makes it easier to dismiss if you don't have a concrete understanding of exactly what it looks like. 

The stupid thing about work environments that push people to burnout is that it just gives the illusion of increasing productivity.  It's more just increasing short-term productivity at a big cost to long-term productivity.  You either get massive turnover or people who are too demoralized to do more than the bare minimum or avoid mistakes.  I think it also makes people focus on the easiest way to take care of the short term instead of performing tasks that may take more time and energy up front but pave the way to make future work easier and more efficient.  I think it may also make people dramatic which undercuts benefits you might get from coworkers collaborating or passing on knowledge.

It's really simple: is your mental and physical well being getting worse over time? If yes, you are burning out, because what burnout means, is that you are functioning beyond your adaptive capacity.
You either need to reduce your strain or increase your adaptive capacity.

Not trying to be obtuse, but that still seems kind of vague.

If you haven't experienced it either first-hand or at close range, yes, it's a bit difficult to understand. I didn't get it until I went through it.

It results from pushing oneself to function at a too-high level for an open-ended length of time during which there is little perceived personal control and the cons outweigh the pros. It starts with mental fatigue, kills internal motivation to keep working, destroys creativity, and eventually causes a whole host of mental and physical problems that make it impossible to work at even a normal standard (let alone the chaos standard that has been maintained/enforced). In my case, I broke down at work and had to be sent home, and then my husband took me to the doctor when I started talking about wanting to walk out into rush-hour traffic so that I wouldn't have to go back to work.

There's not a set time scale. For someone who is already exhausted, it might happen within a year; I hadn't recovered mentally from my PhD before taking on the postdoc that led to my mental breakdown after 8 months. For someone who has loved their job for a long time but finds it harder and harder to cope with the working conditions due to external changes, it may take longer. My SIL has been increasingly dissatisfied with conditions in her public school job due to the loss of key personnel, which meant that extra work was dumped on her with no commensurate increase in salary (and in fact, a frozen salary for several years). School shootings, budget cuts, and COVID accelerated her dissatisfaction over the last few years. Thankfully, she was able to line up a job in a different district before she had to leave the field altogether, but another year or two in those conditions might have broken her.

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #255 on: June 14, 2021, 01:27:03 PM »
How do you define what is and isn't burnout?  Most people have a general idea of what it is, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy concept in most people's heads.  I think it makes it easier to dismiss if you don't have a concrete understanding of exactly what it looks like. 

The stupid thing about work environments that push people to burnout is that it just gives the illusion of increasing productivity.  It's more just increasing short-term productivity at a big cost to long-term productivity.  You either get massive turnover or people who are too demoralized to do more than the bare minimum or avoid mistakes.  I think it also makes people focus on the easiest way to take care of the short term instead of performing tasks that may take more time and energy up front but pave the way to make future work easier and more efficient.  I think it may also make people dramatic which undercuts benefits you might get from coworkers collaborating or passing on knowledge.

It's really simple: is your mental and physical well being getting worse over time? If yes, you are burning out, because what burnout means, is that you are functioning beyond your adaptive capacity.
You either need to reduce your strain or increase your adaptive capacity.

Not trying to be obtuse, but that still seems kind of vague.

Well yeah, because it's different for everyone.

For one person, they may absolutely need to cut back at their job or quit altogether because the job may be truly toxic and the primary source of their overburden.

For another person, their job may be the key burden, but if they were to ease the load at home and seek help with establishing better boundaries at work, they might be able to bring their load back within their adaptive capacity.

For yet another person, they may have untreated mental health issues and are always working beyond their capacity, in which case they may need therapy and medication to expand their adaptive capacity in order to be able to handle anything.

And for another person, they may be drinking too much to cope with their burdens, which overall reduces adaptive capacity, so if they just managed to quit alcohol and introduce healthier coping mechanisms, they may find that that alone brings their overall burden to within the range that they can start thriving again. 

Basically, the concept is that if you are on a path that is leading you to more and more damage as time goes on, then don't use visualization or meditation or gratitude as tools to keep going on the path that is fucking your life. Instead, change something.

Either lighten your load, or change the makeup of your load, or develop skills to expand what you can handle *in a healthy way*, or all of the above.

What's scary is that people are not taught to even be able to evaluate as to whether or not they are in fact thriving or deteriorating. Deteriorating is so common and so "normal" that it doesn't strike people as a problem, just something to continue coping with.

I can't tell you the hundreds upon hundreds of people I've advised who were in very rough shape, and yet they felt their circumstances and state of being was pretty much normal because so many of their peers are the same.

There's actually a really simple metric though: if you don't have the capacity for basic, minimum standard, self maintenance: healthy diet, regular exercise, daily flossing, good rest and sleep, and quality time with your loved ones, then you are operating beyond your adaptive capacity.

You might not be burning out yet, but without those things you will. They're the canary in the mineshaft telling you that you are over burdened.

dougules

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #256 on: June 14, 2021, 01:35:57 PM »
There's actually a really simple metric though: if you don't have the capacity for basic, minimum standard, self maintenance: healthy diet, regular exercise, daily flossing, good rest and sleep, and quality time with your loved ones, then you are operating beyond your adaptive capacity.

You might not be burning out yet, but without those things you will. They're the canary in the mineshaft telling you that you are over burdened.

Thanks.  This is very insightful. 

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #257 on: June 14, 2021, 01:38:20 PM »
How do you define what is and isn't burnout?  Most people have a general idea of what it is, but I think it's kind of a fuzzy concept in most people's heads.  I think it makes it easier to dismiss if you don't have a concrete understanding of exactly what it looks like. 

The stupid thing about work environments that push people to burnout is that it just gives the illusion of increasing productivity.  It's more just increasing short-term productivity at a big cost to long-term productivity.  You either get massive turnover or people who are too demoralized to do more than the bare minimum or avoid mistakes.  I think it also makes people focus on the easiest way to take care of the short term instead of performing tasks that may take more time and energy up front but pave the way to make future work easier and more efficient.  I think it may also make people dramatic which undercuts benefits you might get from coworkers collaborating or passing on knowledge.

It's really simple: is your mental and physical well being getting worse over time? If yes, you are burning out, because what burnout means, is that you are functioning beyond your adaptive capacity.
You either need to reduce your strain or increase your adaptive capacity.

How do you increase your adaptive capacity?

By strengthening your available resources:
-Maximizing mental health and healthy interpersonal dynamics
-Maximizing physical health
-For some, having great sources of mentorship or coaching really expands what the person can cope with at work
-Another might get a huge boost in capacity from a very loving and supportive partner
-Having rich and satisfying hobbies

Basically anything that makes you stronger overall and gives you more ability to deal with what life has to offer.

As I said in my other post, quitting alcohol can give a huge boost to capacity. I quit over a year ago and the increase in my quality of sleep is a major capacity booster for me. Also, I'm generally healthier and happier, which means I'm operating at a higher baseline of function, which means it takes more to exhaust my resources.

Everyone is different, and the problem is that when you are seriously overburdened, these types of health behaviours require resources you don't have. Even therapy is exhausting when overdrawn. So that's why when people are in heavy burnout, the first step always has to be to reduce the burden *then* work on rebuilding and expanding capacity.

If someone is still very early on, then the best thing they can do is reshuffle their priorities to make sure that the capacity expanding efforts come first. So maybe home cooked meals and regular exercise start taking precedence over cosmetic home renos. Perhaps instead of having kids in organized sports, the family instead focus on being physically active together. Again, it's personal, whatever makes sense for that person, that family.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #258 on: June 14, 2021, 04:12:49 PM »
There is no mental without physical. Our every thought has a material manifestation in electro-chemical processes in the brain. Problems with mental health are problems in our very material brain. It is so complex that you can't go in with a scalpel and "fix" a problem - but it has (some, not perfectly understood) capacity for self-repair. Which we refer to as healing. So the hip analogy is more literal than may appear at the first glance.

Yes! Thank you.

My analogy is very literal. People really underestimate the physiology of burnout. That's why I call it an urgent medical condition.

Wow, these two comments together and the previous discussion were very arresting to me.  Click clunk click, cogs whirr....

I'm currently coming out of burnout.  And I'm feeling much better.  Much much.  But I haven't completely stopped working and it means the danger is still there, because my brain is simply wired after all these years to find solutions that my body/brain cannot deliver on (or not without a lot of hardship).  My go-to solutions are very firmly wired, and they "work well" from a corporate perspective, but don't do me any good. 

So the good thing is now (because I've drastically cut my hours) I have enough energy to step back a bit, observe, learn, and I hope maybe in the future to be able to work in a less destructive way.  But that's a hope, not a certainty.  I may need to do something very different (or with a big gap) before I can learn to work in a way that is actually healthy.  It's like there is a process of deconstruction that you have to do before you can reconstruct, or you simply end up back on the path to burnout again.  I'm kind of in a limbo now but I feel like this kind of conversation/insight is very helpful to me in making sure I keep my eyes open and don't end up back there again, so thanks to all who contributed...

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #259 on: June 14, 2021, 04:19:11 PM »
There is no mental without physical. Our every thought has a material manifestation in electro-chemical processes in the brain. Problems with mental health are problems in our very material brain. It is so complex that you can't go in with a scalpel and "fix" a problem - but it has (some, not perfectly understood) capacity for self-repair. Which we refer to as healing. So the hip analogy is more literal than may appear at the first glance.

Yes! Thank you.

My analogy is very literal. People really underestimate the physiology of burnout. That's why I call it an urgent medical condition.

Wow, these two comments together and the previous discussion were very arresting to me.  Click clunk click, cogs whirr....

I'm currently coming out of burnout.  And I'm feeling much better.  Much much.  But I haven't completely stopped working and it means the danger is still there, because my brain is simply wired after all these years to find solutions that my body/brain cannot deliver on (or not without a lot of hardship).  My go-to solutions are very firmly wired, and they "work well" from a corporate perspective, but don't do me any good. 

So the good thing is now (because I've drastically cut my hours) I have enough energy to step back a bit, observe, learn, and I hope maybe in the future to be able to work in a less destructive way.  But that's a hope, not a certainty.  I may need to do something very different (or with a big gap) before I can learn to work in a way that is actually healthy.  It's like there is a process of deconstruction that you have to do before you can reconstruct, or you simply end up back on the path to burnout again.  I'm kind of in a limbo now but I feel like this kind of conversation/insight is very helpful to me in making sure I keep my eyes open and don't end up back there again, so thanks to all who contributed...

Yep, deconstruction is critical.

What you are describing is just habits, and habits self perpetuate, especially those that get social and professional reward and have been maintained for a very long time.

However, habits are not who you are, they are very changeable. This is the logical error a lot of people make, they assume their ha it's as their identity. But if their lives and priorities were to drastically change, so would their habits.

Mine have radically changed as I've changed my priorities to focus on my health and well being. I'm the exact same driven person, I'm just driven to maximize my well being, not an employer's outcomes.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #260 on: June 14, 2021, 04:21:28 PM »
"Mine have radically changed as I've changed my priorities to focus on my health and well being. I'm the exact same driven person, I'm just driven to maximize my well being, not an employer's outcomes."

Logically I totally buy this, but just reading it makes me feel sick and scared and excited all at once, so clearly I still have work to do!

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #261 on: June 14, 2021, 04:27:07 PM »
"Mine have radically changed as I've changed my priorities to focus on my health and well being. I'm the exact same driven person, I'm just driven to maximize my well being, not an employer's outcomes."

Logically I totally buy this, but just reading it makes me feel sick and scared and excited all at once, so clearly I still have work to do!

It took me a lot of therapy to get here. But the turning point was when I was telling my favourite therapist all of my 'very intelligent and rational' reasons why I 'had to' push myself so hard and his response was a humourless "mentally healthy people don't do that"

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #262 on: June 15, 2021, 05:58:47 AM »
This discussion is gold, thanks @Malcat.
I've been using prior capacity as a measuring stick for healing progress and it seems that won't be productive as this is a new baseline to recover from and progress will have to be measured from a general trajectory of headway in healing and feeling better.

Compared to baseline low point, things are fantastic. Compared to prior capacity pre-burnout, this is total crap. That's probably the hardest part of managing a long term illness, accepting your current limitations and the uncertainty of things ever improving, while trying to improve.

Pushing yourself too much will cause setbacks, e.g. recently drove 22 hrs to see family, in hindsight this was stupid and caused a major setback. I thought this would support my well being, but was wrong. It stinks when you can't even recognize what will maximize your well being.

You're right, you can't rebuild capacity or key social support from a state of exhaustion when you don't have this capacity, but how can you make progress without this support? It often feels like a one step forward two steps back process. Have to recognize to your limits and figure out how to heal the unhealthy patterns causing the burnout. 

OtherJen

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #263 on: June 15, 2021, 06:58:54 AM »
Honestly, you have to become a bit ruthless about prioritizing yourself.

Yes, your family wants to see you. That is lovely (I hope). Can they visit over Zoom or another video call platform at a time convenient for you? Can they come to you (assuming that accommodating their visit would increase your stress level)? Twenty-two hours of driving is a LOT even when you're healthy.

Right now, I'm overloaded due to a conflation of a planned volunteer project that has become much more challenging than expected (but will be over soon), some unexpected work tasks that have cropped up in the last couple of months, and a loved one's recent flare of a mental health disorder (during a scheduled week off, which means said time off was not restful). I'm starting to lose sleep and have an upset stomach due to stress. That means I need to prioritize myself immediately. In practice, that looks like:
 
"No, I can't take on more volunteer work any time during the next month. So-and-so might be interested if you contact them."
"I'm sorry, I can't make that meeting. My schedule is full."
"You can cook, or we can have takeout or sandwiches for dinner, because I don't have the capacity to cook tonight."
"That next work assignment will have to wait until I finish the current one."
"I would love to see you; let's make plans for next week. That will give me something to look forward to."

People may be unhappy with those statements, but I have the right to set boundaries around my time and energy so that I can honor my valued commitments at the level of quality I prefer, without burning myself out again.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #264 on: June 15, 2021, 10:25:07 AM »
(during a scheduled week off, which means said time off was not restful). I'm starting to lose sleep and have an upset stomach due to stress. That means I need to prioritize myself immediately.

OMG @OtherJen, sometimes we can never catch a break it seems. Well done recognizing the symptoms, knowing what steps to take to improve things, and actually doing it! :) Thanks again for sharing all the tips, this is very helpful.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #265 on: June 15, 2021, 12:45:22 PM »
"Mine have radically changed as I've changed my priorities to focus on my health and well being. I'm the exact same driven person, I'm just driven to maximize my well being, not an employer's outcomes."

Logically I totally buy this, but just reading it makes me feel sick and scared and excited all at once, so clearly I still have work to do!

It took me a lot of therapy to get here. But the turning point was when I was telling my favourite therapist all of my 'very intelligent and rational' reasons why I 'had to' push myself so hard and his response was a humourless "mentally healthy people don't do that"


I took me three colleagues in a workplace to hit the wall. For the worst cases it took a long time to come back full time at work and a mental shift. I realised that nobody will Thank me for ruining my health especially not my employer. And it it up to me to ensure that it does not happen even though it is the employers responsibility according to the law. Nowadays saturdays are my lazy days, no other households chores then cooking and only planned things in exceptionsl cases.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #266 on: June 15, 2021, 03:08:45 PM »
This thread is being really useful. I am finishing my current contract next Friday because I can feel burnout nibbling at my edges and I've learned to take that seriously. BUT I am being cold-called by multiple recruiters because the market is red hot right now for my skillset and it feels like a combination of stupid to leave the money on the table + fear of being unable to pick up another contract when I *am* ready to work again + 'But I'm So Close to FI...'

My first experience of burnout left me unable to work for 9 months and after that I had to return in a completely different sort of role for several years before I could even face the prospect of something in the same realm. It was like a bone bruise to my brain and took a similar amount of time to heal. I wouldn't chop off a foot for money, I shouldn't be willing to injure my brain for money. I need to trust that I will be able to find another role if and when I start looking again, I have no obligation to these recruiters I have never even met (who just want to make money off me), and I have enough to be picky about what work I want to do and who I want to work for.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #267 on: June 15, 2021, 03:19:55 PM »
I realised that nobody will Thank me for ruining my health especially not my employer. And it it up to me to ensure that it does not happen even though it is the employers responsibility according to the law.

^THIS. When I was in the worst throes of my burnout last year, I was having multiple nervous breakdowns due to unrelenting 60 to 80 hour work weeks for months on end during the height of Covid. I finally go to talk to my manager about my crippling workload (I was effectively covering three FTEs worth of work at the time), and got told, "You are the last person I expected to have problems with time management". I go to my manager's manager, and got told, "It is your responsibility to manage unrealistic expectations"... expect that every single time I tried to do that, I got told that the work was too important and that I had to make it happen. And then I got penalized in my year-end performance review for lack of self-awareness and dealing with ambiguity, and my bonus/stock grant/raise took a hit.

I was killing myself for them, and it turned out to be utterly thankless. Never again. That's when I knew it was time to take my FU money and walk.

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #268 on: June 15, 2021, 03:37:07 PM »
I realised that nobody will Thank me for ruining my health especially not my employer. And it it up to me to ensure that it does not happen even though it is the employers responsibility according to the law.

^THIS. When I was in the worst throes of my burnout last year, I was having multiple nervous breakdowns due to unrelenting 60 to 80 hour work weeks for months on end during the height of Covid. I finally go to talk to my manager about my crippling workload (I was effectively covering three FTEs worth of work at the time), and got told, "You are the last person I expected to have problems with time management". I go to my manager's manager, and got told, "It is your responsibility to manage unrealistic expectations"... expect that every single time I tried to do that, I got told that the work was too important and that I had to make it happen. And then I got penalized in my year-end performance review for lack of self-awareness and dealing with ambiguity, and my bonus/stock grant/raise took a hit.

I was killing myself for them, and it turned out to be utterly thankless. Never again. That's when I knew it was time to take my FU money and walk.

The phrase I like to use is:

There are no medals for failing to take care of yourself.

Malee55

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #269 on: June 15, 2021, 04:07:05 PM »
I had to change my work area 4 years ago due to burn out which I did not recognize. I was sitting with my counsellor before my shift and I was in tears because of work. But still insisting that I had to go to work in an ours time as it was too close to my start time for them to get a replacement for me. But it is so easy not to see the problem when you are the middle of it. Now I can look back and wonder how the fuck did I not realize it.

This time I was planning on not letting myself get that bad. I have just had 4 weeks annual leave. And from mid July I will be on leave until October when I will retire. But I am a mess. I was sort of holding together and ignoring how bad I am. Then read through this thread and all the comments and ended up in tears because I don't think I can hold it together for another 4 weeks. So tonight I have an appointment with my family doctor to get a medical certificate which I am hoping to persuade him to make for the 4 weeks so I will not be going back to work.


force majeure

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #270 on: June 15, 2021, 04:17:02 PM »
Talking about mental health...

Maybe this should go into the Epic section.

I had a meltdown with manage last week.... told him, im done.

FIRE plan is activated.... 900K and 5K annual spend..

I am still nervous about it all.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #271 on: June 15, 2021, 04:23:17 PM »
Talking about mental health...

Maybe this should go into the Epic section.

I had a meltdown with manage last week.... told him, im done.

FIRE plan is activated.... 900K and 5K annual spend..

I am still nervous about it all.

5K annual spend... WOW! Super LCOL? How?! Needless to say I'm super envious.

Morning Glory

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #272 on: June 15, 2021, 05:36:26 PM »
Talking about mental health...

Maybe this should go into the Epic section.

I had a meltdown with manage last week.... told him, im done.

FIRE plan is activated.... 900K and 5K annual spend..

I am still nervous about it all.

I had a similar meltdown last winter, but with my spouse over abusive behavior. I basically said I would be leaving if he didn't make some changes including getting professional help for his mental health and anger issues. He's actually getting help including medication, individual therapy, and marriage counseling. We're also selling our big rural property in order to simplify our lives and allow him to get a job instead of staying home with the kids. (This might belong in the "what's wrong with men" thread, but being a SAHP negatively impacted his mental health and it wasn't a good situation for any of us).

 I may not have burned out on work so badly if I'd had some support at home. The last straw was after I'd gone to the doctor to get antidepressants because I was too anxious to eat or sleep, and he told me my anxiety disorder wasn't real and got in my face screaming when I tried to explain about serotonin.

  He did not always act like that but it crept up so slowly that I didn't really notice and I just got used to it, just like a frog in a frying pan. Of course I used "coping mechanisms" including a decent amount of wine, and went through multiple job changes because I really thought that work was what was stressing me out and that I wouldn't be so exhausted if I just worked better hours.

 Shortly before I had that meltdown, I had gotten in touch with an old friend who told me a story I barely remembered about a time when I stood up for myself. I thought about that story when my husband was yelling and it made me wonder why I was putting up with far worse treatment now. I will be forever grateful to my friend.

 I only wish it had happened sooner. I think I had to get to a point where I really felt like I had nothing more to lose. Now I'm having a hard time deciding whether it's worth repairing the marriage because I don't know if I can be happy with him. Even though he is doing so much better he still backslides occasionally and I don't feel confident that these changes will stick. Financially I will be much better off staying married, and we've got kids to think about too. I've got tough decisions ahead, but at least I feel like I have a choice now.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #273 on: June 16, 2021, 05:33:09 AM »
So tonight I have an appointment with my family doctor to get a medical certificate which I am hoping to persuade him to make for the 4 weeks so I will not be going back to work.

Good luck @Malee55 please let us know how it goes when you can!
 
@Malcat or others, do you have any insight on the disability side of things? In US, there were some Drs making the case that burnout is very similar to the physical symptoms of PTSD and should be covered disability under ADAAA, but this hasn't happened. Unless you frame your symptoms as an "approved" condition (PTSD, anxiety disorder, etc) it's unlikely to be covered. Some people have so much trauma they have to leave their industry entirely like what @mspym described.

The disproportionate impact on essential workers (healthcare, police, emergency response) you'd think there'd be some headway on this. When there's no safety net combined with financial or relationship pressures, it just adds so much additional stress and keeps people in unhealthy situations.

@Morning Glory wish you the best navigating an abusive relationship. Unsure if you're familiar, but mosaic threat assessment is one tool that can help gauge the level of risk an individual poses for escalating abuse and violence: https://www.mosaicmethod.com/. Some guys unfortunately can go off the rails.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 05:38:03 AM by Roots&Wings »

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #274 on: June 16, 2021, 06:12:45 AM »
I'm not in the US, so really can't comment.

The thing is that "burnout" isn't technically a disabling condition, but it can lead disabling conditions that are diagnosable by mental health professionals, such as anxiety, memory loss, chronic migraine, etc.

Burnout is the process, how you physiologically respond to it is the.condition.

Malee55

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #275 on: June 17, 2021, 03:32:00 AM »
I got 2 weeks off sick leave. So that is a relief. Then only 2 weeks before leave. And my doctor is quite understanding of the situation and if I need longer I can go back to him.

Sometimes it feels like I am my own worst enemy. I know I need this break from work, but also feel guilty that I am taking time off work and I know that my absence will make it harder for my co-workers who are still there. I need to look after myself and we are not taught to do that.


Raenia

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #276 on: June 17, 2021, 06:11:59 AM »
I got 2 weeks off sick leave. So that is a relief. Then only 2 weeks before leave. And my doctor is quite understanding of the situation and if I need longer I can go back to him.

Sometimes it feels like I am my own worst enemy. I know I need this break from work, but also feel guilty that I am taking time off work and I know that my absence will make it harder for my co-workers who are still there. I need to look after myself and we are not taught to do that.

Good job taking care of yourself.  If you don't prioritize your health, no one will.

Ultimately, if all employees started taking better care of themselves and setting boundaries, it would be good for everyone, because the employers would have to start hiring and scheduling adequate coverage instead of stretching everyone as thin as they can get away with.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #277 on: June 17, 2021, 06:27:52 AM »
Ditto. So glad that worked out with getting the leave approved. There's zero benefit in pushing yourself too soon, and doing so could potentially cause a major setback.

You're right, we aren't taught to take care of ourselves first (except on planes!) but you have to put on your own oxygen mask first before helping others. It's unselfish because you can't function in the world and serve others as well otherwise. Taking care of yourself is the best course of action and the least selfish thing you can do.

svosavvy

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #278 on: June 17, 2021, 06:43:35 AM »
Ditto. So glad that worked out with getting the leave approved. There's zero benefit in pushing yourself too soon, and doing so could potentially cause a major setback.

You're right, we aren't taught to take care of ourselves first (except on planes!) but you have to put on your own oxygen mask first before helping others. It's unselfish because you can't function in the world and serve others as well otherwise. Taking care of yourself is the best course of action and the least selfish thing you can do.
So true.  We are all pulling for you Malee55.  30 years is a long time.  I have been following the conversation (lurker alert) just haven't posted.  Hi all.

OtherJen

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #279 on: June 17, 2021, 06:45:39 AM »
I got 2 weeks off sick leave. So that is a relief. Then only 2 weeks before leave. And my doctor is quite understanding of the situation and if I need longer I can go back to him.

Sometimes it feels like I am my own worst enemy. I know I need this break from work, but also feel guilty that I am taking time off work and I know that my absence will make it harder for my co-workers who are still there. I need to look after myself and we are not taught to do that.

Good job taking care of yourself.  If you don't prioritize your health, no one will.

Ultimately, if all employees started taking better care of themselves and setting boundaries, it would be good for everyone, because the employers would have to start hiring and scheduling adequate coverage instead of stretching everyone as thin as they can get away with.

Agreed. Since I've been old enough to pay attention (30 years or so, when I became a teenager), it has seemed like corporate culture is based on eliminating redundancy without giving adequate consideration to the purpose of that redundancy, or pursuing "lean" operations at all costs (except those to shareholders). Of course burnout of the remaining employees is the result.

ender

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #280 on: June 17, 2021, 06:55:21 AM »
Started reading the book Deep Work last night.

I think that explains any feelings of burnout I have. My life, both work and personal, is so.... scatter brained and distraction heavy. I've become addicted to a slight dopamine hit from various online things, whether this forum or various communities I'm part of or youtube or whatever.

I need more of that deep distraction free depth (and living for that matter).

I suspect a major portion of my slow burn burnout relates to this.

dougules

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #281 on: June 17, 2021, 07:34:32 AM »
I got 2 weeks off sick leave. So that is a relief. Then only 2 weeks before leave. And my doctor is quite understanding of the situation and if I need longer I can go back to him.

Sometimes it feels like I am my own worst enemy. I know I need this break from work, but also feel guilty that I am taking time off work and I know that my absence will make it harder for my co-workers who are still there. I need to look after myself and we are not taught to do that.

If you're worried about your coworkers, look at it this way.  If you didn't take care of yourself, you would eventually just break down, and that would put them in even more of a bind.  It's a false choice to think of it as helping them vs helping yourself.  A broken you just needs help and can't give any.  A healthy and happy you has the capacity to help other people out when they need it.  In the long run, putting yourself first isn't selfish because it's to the benefit of everybody around you. Anybody that judges you for it (including your own self) is guilty of short-term thinking.  An organization that pushes its people to burnout is just shooting itself in the foot.  I've seen a workplace drive itself to rock bottom then have to climb out of the hole.  It's not to anybody's benefit.  Take some time off for you AND your coworkers.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #282 on: June 17, 2021, 08:15:54 AM »
A healthy and happy you has the capacity to help other people out when they need it.  In the long run, putting yourself first isn't selfish because it's to the benefit of everybody around you. Anybody that judges you for it (including your own self) is guilty of short-term thinking.

Love this @dougules!! This also relates to the "Deep Work" mentality @ender is describing around short-term, quick fix, distracted thinking vs a more in depth, focused engagement that yields long-term satisfaction and contentment. Deep Work also advocates for being lazy and relaxing as key too :)

When you're on the path to burnout, you can get stuck in that short-term unhealthy thinking cycle, feel overburdened, and unable to see the wider picture or the steps you need to take to reset things on a healthy path.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 08:36:24 AM by Roots&Wings »

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #283 on: June 17, 2021, 08:24:51 AM »
I got 2 weeks off sick leave. So that is a relief. Then only 2 weeks before leave. And my doctor is quite understanding of the situation and if I need longer I can go back to him.

Sometimes it feels like I am my own worst enemy. I know I need this break from work, but also feel guilty that I am taking time off work and I know that my absence will make it harder for my co-workers who are still there. I need to look after myself and we are not taught to do that.

On the flip side, the more you take on responsibility you can't handle, the more you set the expectation that that's reasonable to expect of yourself AND your colleagues. So you aren't actually helping them, you're setting them up to burnout as well.


dougules

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #284 on: June 17, 2021, 10:28:35 AM »
This reminds me of an old joke from the ancient days of the internet.  It's been around several times, so I would guess a lot of folks have already seen it.  There are several variants, but the general idea is:

Traditional Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the income.

German Corporation
You have two cows. You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

Italian Corporation
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You break for lunch.

Swiss Corporation
You have 5,000 cows, none of which belong to you. You charge others for storing them.

Then the American Corporation almost always goes like
You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.

If you find it funny that should tell you something. 

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #285 on: June 19, 2021, 05:43:06 AM »
Saw my Dr and have a note for a month leave from work. Thanks all for the kick in the rear to do something. And @dougules for the smile :)

Malee55

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #286 on: June 19, 2021, 03:50:23 PM »
Good on you Roots&Wings. It was this thread that gave me the impetus to do something about feeling so burnt out at work.

Raenia how are you going? Are things getting sorted at home and with selling the previous house?

Raenia

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #287 on: June 19, 2021, 07:08:03 PM »
I am feeling somewhat better this week, in spite of some stressful things (going back to work in person, and a very painful dental appointment).  The apartment is coming together, and I'm trying to be kind to myself when things like dishes and laundry don't get done "on schedule."  Today we hung a few pictures.  The house sale is proceeding slowly - the realtor just got the photos from the photographer, and I'm waiting to hear back from the lawyers on the disclosure form.  Cat's finished her round of meds, though she may need another - she was fine for a few days after the antibiotics finished, but we're starting to notice some symptoms again.

I think sharing helped in a way, making it real in a way that it wasn't when I was just talking to myself.  So thank you all for that.  Definitely going to continue taking it easy as much as possible until the house is sold.  Hopefully then we'll be back to a sustainable load, and can start repairing the damage.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #288 on: June 21, 2021, 08:30:45 AM »
Good to hear @Raenia things are a bit better. Writing this stuff out and talking to others can be really helpful.

This thread helped me realize it's time to rest and recharge. I'm done with "powering through" at work and risking further damage to my brain, not when I'm this exhausted.

Since I had confirmation there were no performance issues at work prior to medical leave, legally I can't be fired unless our entire department is fired (very unlikely). Not looking forward to filing the paperwork again for medical leave/submitting disability claim, but at least it's a safety net.

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #289 on: June 21, 2021, 09:00:47 AM »
Good to hear @Raenia things are a bit better. Writing this stuff out and talking to others can be really helpful.

This thread helped me realize it's time to rest and recharge. I'm done with "powering through" at work and risking further damage to my brain, not when I'm this exhausted.

Since I had confirmation there were no performance issues at work prior to medical leave, legally I can't be fired unless our entire department is fired (very unlikely). Not looking forward to filing the paperwork again for medical leave/submitting disability claim, but at least it's a safety net.

Just a friendly suggestion from someone who retired due to medical reasons.

It can't hurt to consult a lawyer before filling out forms.
In the event that you end up, for some reason, filing for permanent disability, all of your previous records and forms will factor in, and can easily bite you in the ass.

I wish I had consulted a lawyer a few years ago when I first took 6 weeks off for medical leave. I would have handled things very differently had I known about the disability system what I do now.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #290 on: June 21, 2021, 09:14:58 AM »
@Malcat can you elaborate on what you would've handled differently? Or example questions to ask a lawyer? My brain can't process filling out the forms, let alone what questions to ask a lawyer.

It's a good caution that the disability system (whether it's gov't or private insurance) can be a nightmare to navigate.

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #291 on: June 21, 2021, 11:37:20 AM »
@Malcat can you elaborate on what you would've handled differently? Or example questions to ask a lawyer? My brain can't process filling out the forms, let alone what questions to ask a lawyer.

It's a good caution that the disability system (whether it's gov't or private insurance) can be a nightmare to navigate.

I can't really get into it as I'm currently in an ongoing lawsuit with my insurer.

Suffice to say, a good lawyer can help you identify the easily avoidable pitfalls. I would never fill out any disability forms without having them reviewed by a lawyer first. I also now have all clinical notes from my MDs sent to me for review and I send back comments in writing when doctors fail to keep accurate notes, which happens all the time (I say this with no disrespect, I'm one of them and I understand why it happens every day).

ditheca

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #292 on: June 21, 2021, 04:19:09 PM »
I'm getting burned out. Full time parenting + full time IT job + MBA is measurably decreasing my performance.

I am usually pretty clever, but I'm making oh so many stupid mistakes recently. Uploading the wrong file. Brainless errors on time sheets. I barely recognize myself!

Luckily, I graduate in August. Hopefully that will be enough to get me back on the path to normal.

Fish Sweet

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #293 on: June 21, 2021, 05:46:10 PM »
Good to hear @Raenia things are a bit better. Writing this stuff out and talking to others can be really helpful.

This thread helped me realize it's time to rest and recharge. I'm done with "powering through" at work and risking further damage to my brain, not when I'm this exhausted.

Since I had confirmation there were no performance issues at work prior to medical leave, legally I can't be fired unless our entire department is fired (very unlikely). Not looking forward to filing the paperwork again for medical leave/submitting disability claim, but at least it's a safety net.
Glad to hear you're taking steps to take care of your brain, and I hope all your paperwork and bureaucratic faff goes through smoothly.  The concept one must always be "powering through" is such a curse, honestly. 

Roots&Wings

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #294 on: June 22, 2021, 05:49:46 AM »
Thanks so much @Malcat, and @Fish Sweet. Please take care of yourself @ditheca!

This might help others who can't immediately quit or don't want to lose their job/benefits to figure out options.

My company doesn't offer leave of absence like @amberfocus was able to do (I've been lurking in your journal, it's most impressive what you're doing!); only unpaid FMLA medical leave or paid disability medical leave.

dodojojo

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #295 on: June 23, 2021, 07:49:07 PM »
I read this thread 2x to decide whether or not what I'm experiencing is burnout.  I don't have crazy work hours or children to juggle.  I have a parent I watch over from afar and there is stress from there but I'm not caring for them day and night.  But I have lived a clenched teeth life for a decade now because I'm at a job for the corporate dough.  Early on I actually had moral dilemmas over it but I'm ashamed to say, I adapted over time.  What really tops it off is I have a periodically rocky relationship with my manager.  If I kneel and kiss the ring, it's fine but sometimes skirmishes break out and they usually arise from my not showing enough deference.  I say deference, manager would say respect.  For years, I only had words with the manager and left it there.  Not talked to a single soul about these problems.  He would go through a petty few weeks or months and then it would be almost okay for a long while.

Right now, we're in our worst scrum yet. Manager chewed me out and forwarded note to HR.  Well, if he's going to involve HR...they are my HR too so I made my case.  I finally told my side of the story and I feel like it's crossing the Rubicon.  I don't know how much he's heard from HR but he has dialed up the hostility and I fear there is no return. He's talked about changing my title, ignores me in meetings, not responding to communication, etc. It's bordering on retaliation. 

I don't want to get into too much more but I know he is capable of some Machiavellian HR schemes. I can't sleep, my GI system is all screwed up, I feel like someone left a dumbbell on my chest. And though I know I should be extra productive to beat back any accusations, I can not focus my brain at all. 

I don't fear losing this job.  Actually I feel like an injured animal and want to be put out of misery.  Though I have the FU stash, I can't pull the trigger because I'm not FI and I'm at an age where it may be difficult to get back or near this wage level.  I can't even focus on work, much less go on a job search.  And that's another mental hurdle too--I haven't successfully applied for a job in a decade and a half.  As mentioned earlier, we've had scrums and then things calmed down, and I stayed on the corporate grind.  And now years later, it's just been a decade of inertia.  I honestly feel like I've lost a chunk of grey cells.

The urge to just walk out and come what may is strong.  I took breaks in my 20's and 30's but am no longer that intrepid. What if I blow through my FU stash and have to start digging in the FI part?  What if I can't help my family in an emergency? I day dream getting out ASAP, taking time off and then landing at a decent job in 4 or 5 months...I'm a 21st century paper pusher, no one is beating down my door for services.

iluvzbeach

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #296 on: June 23, 2021, 08:56:47 PM »
@dodojojo, I’m sorry I don’t have any advice for you but I will say I really empathize with your situation. The way you tell your story makes my chest feel heavy, so I can’t even imagine how difficult this must be for you. I’m sure wiser people than me will have some excellent advice to offer. In the meantime, you’re in my thoughts. Take care of yourself as best you can.

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #297 on: June 23, 2021, 09:16:39 PM »
I have advice: you need appropriate psychological support.

Trauma is most damaging when it is
1: unjust
2: ongoing
3: unpredictable

Yours meets all of the above criteria. You don't need to be exhausted and caring for triplets while working as a neurosurgeon while your mom died to burnout. You simply have to sustain operating beyond your adaptive capacity for enough time for your system to start overloading.

Most people cannot withstand unjust, ongoing, unpredictable treatment from someone with real power over you. It might look like people do, but they're sustaining damage. The lucky ones fall apart, the unlucky ones don't and get cancer or drop dead from a stroke. Either way, trauma will demand it's price. You pay it one way or another if you don't take appropriate measures to process and manage it.

Your system is overloaded and starting to fail, hence your symptoms. Your very real, physiological symptoms.

So I'll repeat this as many times as I need to: burnout is an urgent medical situation that needs to be treated like an urgent medical situation.

Seek the appropriate psychological support to help you figure out what your best next steps are. I don't know what the right move for you is, but you obviously REALLY don't know, and need some help learning how to read your own signals and evaluate your own needs.

Mentally healthy people don't ignore dangerous symptoms of system breakdown. You are not mentally healthy at present.

I strongly suggest doing something about that.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 09:20:39 PM by Malcat »

dougules

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #298 on: June 24, 2021, 08:23:33 AM »
Right now, we're in our worst scrum yet. Manager chewed me out and forwarded note to HR.  Well, if he's going to involve HR...they are my HR too so I made my case.  I finally told my side of the story and I feel like it's crossing the Rubicon.  I don't know how much he's heard from HR but he has dialed up the hostility and I fear there is no return. He's talked about changing my title, ignores me in meetings, not responding to communication, etc. It's bordering on retaliation. 

I don't want to get into too much more but I know he is capable of some Machiavellian HR schemes. I can't sleep, my GI system is all screwed up, I feel like someone left a dumbbell on my chest. And though I know I should be extra productive to beat back any accusations, I can not focus my brain at all. 

Is he only doing this to you, or is he like that to other employees?  What do other folks think of him?

Glenstache

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #299 on: June 24, 2021, 09:26:00 AM »
I read this thread 2x to decide whether or not what I'm experiencing is burnout.  I don't have crazy work hours or children to juggle.  I have a parent I watch over from afar and there is stress from there but I'm not caring for them day and night.  But I have lived a clenched teeth life for a decade now because I'm at a job for the corporate dough.  Early on I actually had moral dilemmas over it but I'm ashamed to say, I adapted over time.  What really tops it off is I have a periodically rocky relationship with my manager.  If I kneel and kiss the ring, it's fine but sometimes skirmishes break out and they usually arise from my not showing enough deference.  I say deference, manager would say respect.  For years, I only had words with the manager and left it there.  Not talked to a single soul about these problems.  He would go through a petty few weeks or months and then it would be almost okay for a long while.

Right now, we're in our worst scrum yet. Manager chewed me out and forwarded note to HR.  Well, if he's going to involve HR...they are my HR too so I made my case.  I finally told my side of the story and I feel like it's crossing the Rubicon.  I don't know how much he's heard from HR but he has dialed up the hostility and I fear there is no return. He's talked about changing my title, ignores me in meetings, not responding to communication, etc. It's bordering on retaliation. 

I don't want to get into too much more but I know he is capable of some Machiavellian HR schemes. I can't sleep, my GI system is all screwed up, I feel like someone left a dumbbell on my chest. And though I know I should be extra productive to beat back any accusations, I can not focus my brain at all. 

I don't fear losing this job.  Actually I feel like an injured animal and want to be put out of misery.  Though I have the FU stash, I can't pull the trigger because I'm not FI and I'm at an age where it may be difficult to get back or near this wage level.  I can't even focus on work, much less go on a job search.  And that's another mental hurdle too--I haven't successfully applied for a job in a decade and a half.  As mentioned earlier, we've had scrums and then things calmed down, and I stayed on the corporate grind.  And now years later, it's just been a decade of inertia.  I honestly feel like I've lost a chunk of grey cells.

The urge to just walk out and come what may is strong.  I took breaks in my 20's and 30's but am no longer that intrepid. What if I blow through my FU stash and have to start digging in the FI part?  What if I can't help my family in an emergency? I day dream getting out ASAP, taking time off and then landing at a decent job in 4 or 5 months...I'm a 21st century paper pusher, no one is beating down my door for services.

It sounds like a bad manager, who adapts to their own troubles by doubling down on "managing" and "asserting control/respect", which are not the traits of a good manager. A good manager is a facilitator to get the group to achieve goals. As others have said, you are likely not the only person getting the raw end of this treatment. Malcat's take (as per usual) is pretty spot on. It is in the company's best interest for HR to know that they have a toxic manager.