Feeling burned out. Anyone else?

[Malee55]

This week I started back at work after 4 weeks of annual leave. I hoped I would be rested and ready to face the next few weeks until I go on long service leave. But it has just emphasized how ready I am to give the job in. I have 18 shifts (but whose counting) until I go on leave for 3 1/2 months Then retire. And I don't feel I can last that long.

I did not think about my memory problems and difficulty learning a new IT system at work as being part of the burn out. But it makes sense. So hopefully I can go back to being a normally functioning person soon.

[Raenia]

Good heavens, @Roots&Wings!  I sincerely hope all that is behind you and you've come out the other side.  That sounds thoroughly terrible.  I can't even imagine.

When I turn in the disclosure form, I'll ask the realtor what else they can handle for us.

Good luck @Malee55!  From what I've read, it's no surprise that 4 weeks wasn't enough to let you feel right again.  I'm very glad you have a not-very-long term plan to get out.  Can you call out or take off days in the meantime, or limit your hours?  Do you have to make it to your scheduled leave, or can you retire sooner?

[JestJes]

Since then I’ve taken away my nightly coping wine and started putting up serious boundaries with the job.

Oh my gosh this. I woke up a month and a half ago and realized I had let my burn had turned into a serious drinking problem. I was bribing myself for working 10 hour days with a 3 dollar bottle of wine every night, stacking money, thinking I was doing good but I was actually slowly killing myself.  Since quitting, my productivity has been crap but I'm letting my brain feel stuff again so I guess I need to give it a break.

[GodlessCommie]

Holy s%#t, @Roots&Wings , what a crazy amount of grief and stress the stalker caused you... wishing you all the strength and luck in the world, and hope the authorities are doing what they are supposed to do to protect you.

[Zamboni]

The boundary stuff is really helpful, and not something I learned at home. In fact, in a lot of ways I was conditioned growing up that other people don't have to respect my boundaries, and so I shouldn't even bother trying to have or communicate boundaries.

So, yeah, that has led to burnout. In all areas. The struggle is real.

[Bee21]

Yep, burnout is real, I am toasted and crispy as hell.

i was overworked for so long that it just became the reality. Then I had a masssive meltdown at work last december... I sort of resigned but management sent me off on extended leave (they felt bad about the situation, plus were afraid that I would sue them), paid for therapy etc. I am now doing the absolute minimum at work and slowly getting back to the position where I can actually start applying for other jobs without crying. I am planning to get something I am actually excited doing. Job hopping in the next 5 years. Whatever. Not sure what, but will figure it out. No more mind numbing shit surrounded by toxic people, that's for sure. We are not in the position to retire yet, but close. Coast fire, I guess, so there is no need to kill myself working.

No job is worth it.

we do need to understand when to stop and pause.

 This FIRE movement  can actually be damaging as the illusion of freedom at a future moment keeps people in untenable present situations. Sure, if we tough it out for a few more years we can retire with x$, but we might not be able to enjoy our hard earned freedom.

Im a big fan of debt freedom and a large pile of FU money, they are the burnt out people's best friends.

[Roots&Wings]

Holy s%#t, @Roots&Wings , what a crazy amount of grief and stress the stalker caused you... wishing you all the strength and luck in the world, and hope the authorities are doing what they are supposed to do to protect you.

Thanks for your kind words. It's crazy how the pandemic has spiked all kinds of burnout and increased domestic violence (apparently 1 in 5 women are stalked...never expected this).

I have no clue how police officers, EMTs, emergency room Dr's can function in stressful as hell conditions all the time, but somehow they are stress and boundary jedi masters (trying to learn their skills).

I've hit a wall with progress with the burnout, and maybe just need time for things to further improve. My memory's still shot, will that ever recover or is this a "new normal"?

[StarBright]

we do need to understand when to stop and pause.

 This FIRE movement  can actually be damaging as the illusion of freedom at a future moment keeps people in untenable present situations. Sure, if we tough it out for a few more years we can retire with x$, but we might not be able to enjoy our hard earned freedom.

^ I think this is important. Another damaging thing I've noticed is when the idea of practicing gratitude is taken to the extreme and it is something I struggle with regularly.

I had a loved one ask if the hours on my job were getting better. I had a moment where I debated being truthful or not. I opted for truth and said not really, we were still working late into the night/morning several days a week. And the person replied with "Well just be thankful you have a job." And then they doubled down with "Always remember that you are doing someone's dream job."

I felt so much worse after that conversation. When you are struggling with walking away and decision fatigue in general, having someone reinforce that you should be grateful for what you have just makes everything harder.

[Metalcat]

Holy s%#t, @Roots&Wings , what a crazy amount of grief and stress the stalker caused you... wishing you all the strength and luck in the world, and hope the authorities are doing what they are supposed to do to protect you.

Thanks for your kind words. It's crazy how the pandemic has spiked all kinds of burnout and increased domestic violence (apparently 1 in 5 women are stalked...never expected this).

I have no clue how police officers, EMTs, emergency room Dr's can function in stressful as hell conditions all the time, but somehow they are stress and boundary jedi masters (trying to learn their skills).

I've hit a wall with progress with the burnout, and maybe just need time for things to further improve. My memory's still shot, will that ever recover or is this a "new normal"?

No, they aren't. That's why suicide, addiction, and mental health issues are rampant in these populations.

I've hosted major events about burnout for medical professionals, it can be an ugly scene.

There are no super humans.
I've seen some of those seemingly Jedi professionals literally claw at their own faces in their sleep due to stress.

[Flat9MKE]

^ I think this is important. Another damaging thing I've noticed is when the idea of practicing gratitude is taken to the extreme and it is something I struggle with regularly.

I had a loved one ask if the hours on my job were getting better. I had a moment where I debated being truthful or not. I opted for truth and said not really, we were still working late into the night/morning several days a week. And the person replied with "Well just be thankful you have a job." And then they doubled down with "Always remember that you are doing someone's dream job."

I felt so much worse after that conversation. When you are struggling with walking away and decision fatigue in general, having someone reinforce that you should be grateful for what you have just makes everything harder.

Everyone's situation is unique and just because other people may have it "worse", doesn't mean we shouldn't deserve and demand better.  There are lots of people who have it "better" too.

Gratitude is good, but it should not be used sweep bad situations under the rug or push them neatly away into your subconcious.

Don't worry about what other people say when it comes to looking for a more fulfilling and better work life; comments like that come from people with a fear-based mentality who are beholden to their employers and society's rules.   

[Metalcat]

^ I think this is important. Another damaging thing I've noticed is when the idea of practicing gratitude is taken to the extreme and it is something I struggle with regularly.

I had a loved one ask if the hours on my job were getting better. I had a moment where I debated being truthful or not. I opted for truth and said not really, we were still working late into the night/morning several days a week. And the person replied with "Well just be thankful you have a job." And then they doubled down with "Always remember that you are doing someone's dream job."

I felt so much worse after that conversation. When you are struggling with walking away and decision fatigue in general, having someone reinforce that you should be grateful for what you have just makes everything harder.

Everyone's situation is unique and just because other people may have it "worse", doesn't mean we shouldn't deserve and demand better.  There are lots of people who have it "better" too.

Gratitude is good, but it should not be used sweep bad situations under the rug or push them neatly away into your subconcious.

Don't worry about what other people say when it comes to looking for a more fulfilling and better work life; comments like that come from people with a fear-based mentality who are beholden to their employers and society's rules.

Yes, there's a HUGE misinterpretation in our society that gratitude means sucking it and accepting what's shitty in your life.

That is NOT gratitude.

Proper, healthy gratitude actually encourages you to be less tolerant of bullshit that you shouldn't put up with. The more genuinely gratef you are for the things that truly help you thrive and be happy, the more protective you become of those things.

Gratitude is not convincing yourself to stay in a shitty situation just because it could be worse, or because society has indoctrinated you to think you *should* feel grateful for your career, or income, or whatever.

As someone who has lived both realities, I can firmly say that what my workaholic, achievement junkie self used to think was gratitude was sooooo unhealthy. What I experience now as gratitude looks NITHING like what I used to think it looked like.

Gratitude now makes me completely unwilling to allow my life to be worse. It makes me ferociously protective of whatever health and happiness I can hold onto.

[Raenia]

we do need to understand when to stop and pause.

 This FIRE movement  can actually be damaging as the illusion of freedom at a future moment keeps people in untenable present situations. Sure, if we tough it out for a few more years we can retire with x$, but we might not be able to enjoy our hard earned freedom.

^ I think this is important. Another damaging thing I've noticed is when the idea of practicing gratitude is taken to the extreme and it is something I struggle with regularly.

I had a loved one ask if the hours on my job were getting better. I had a moment where I debated being truthful or not. I opted for truth and said not really, we were still working late into the night/morning several days a week. And the person replied with "Well just be thankful you have a job." And then they doubled down with "Always remember that you are doing someone's dream job."

I felt so much worse after that conversation. When you are struggling with walking away and decision fatigue in general, having someone reinforce that you should be grateful for what you have just makes everything harder.

If someone asked me if my job had improved and then belittled me when I said it hadn't, I don't think I could stop myself from hitting back with "If you don't actually care, why did you ask?", "Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were asking because you cared about me.  My mistake." or even "Are you trying to train me to lie to you about important things in my life?"

It's nothing to do with gratitude, just basic compassion for people they supposedly care about.

[dougules]

we do need to understand when to stop and pause.

 This FIRE movement  can actually be damaging as the illusion of freedom at a future moment keeps people in untenable present situations. Sure, if we tough it out for a few more years we can retire with x$, but we might not be able to enjoy our hard earned freedom.

^ I think this is important. Another damaging thing I've noticed is when the idea of practicing gratitude is taken to the extreme and it is something I struggle with regularly.

I had a loved one ask if the hours on my job were getting better. I had a moment where I debated being truthful or not. I opted for truth and said not really, we were still working late into the night/morning several days a week. And the person replied with "Well just be thankful you have a job." And then they doubled down with "Always remember that you are doing someone's dream job."

I felt so much worse after that conversation. When you are struggling with walking away and decision fatigue in general, having someone reinforce that you should be grateful for what you have just makes everything harder.

If someone asked me if my job had improved and then belittled me when I said it hadn't, I don't think I could stop myself from hitting back with "If you don't actually care, why did you ask?", "Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were asking because you cared about me.  My mistake." or even "Are you trying to train me to lie to you about important things in my life?"

It's nothing to do with gratitude, just basic compassion for people they supposedly care about.

Generally when people say things like that, they're sincerely trying to be helpful.  On the surface it does seem like thinking about all the people in poverty would make you feel better about your own stress.  Sometimes it takes a big mental shift to realize this is the equivalent of telling yourself that losing a finger is not that bad if you think about all the people that have lost an arm. 

[dougules]

Holy s%#t, @Roots&Wings , what a crazy amount of grief and stress the stalker caused you... wishing you all the strength and luck in the world, and hope the authorities are doing what they are supposed to do to protect you.

Thanks for your kind words. It's crazy how the pandemic has spiked all kinds of burnout and increased domestic violence (apparently 1 in 5 women are stalked...never expected this).

I have no clue how police officers, EMTs, emergency room Dr's can function in stressful as hell conditions all the time, but somehow they are stress and boundary jedi masters (trying to learn their skills).

I've hit a wall with progress with the burnout, and maybe just need time for things to further improve. My memory's still shot, will that ever recover or is this a "new normal"?

No, they aren't. That's why suicide, addiction, and mental health issues are rampant in these populations.

I've hosted major events about burnout for medical professionals, it can be an ugly scene.

There are no super humans.
I've seen some of those seemingly Jedi professionals literally claw at their own faces in their sleep due to stress.

What's the solution to that?  Burning out medical professionals has a huge negative impact on everyone.  It seems like a field that just intrinsically would make it really hard not to burn people out, though. 

[Raenia]

we do need to understand when to stop and pause.

 This FIRE movement  can actually be damaging as the illusion of freedom at a future moment keeps people in untenable present situations. Sure, if we tough it out for a few more years we can retire with x$, but we might not be able to enjoy our hard earned freedom.

^ I think this is important. Another damaging thing I've noticed is when the idea of practicing gratitude is taken to the extreme and it is something I struggle with regularly.

I had a loved one ask if the hours on my job were getting better. I had a moment where I debated being truthful or not. I opted for truth and said not really, we were still working late into the night/morning several days a week. And the person replied with "Well just be thankful you have a job." And then they doubled down with "Always remember that you are doing someone's dream job."

I felt so much worse after that conversation. When you are struggling with walking away and decision fatigue in general, having someone reinforce that you should be grateful for what you have just makes everything harder.

If someone asked me if my job had improved and then belittled me when I said it hadn't, I don't think I could stop myself from hitting back with "If you don't actually care, why did you ask?", "Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were asking because you cared about me.  My mistake." or even "Are you trying to train me to lie to you about important things in my life?"

It's nothing to do with gratitude, just basic compassion for people they supposedly care about.

Generally when people say things like that, they're sincerely trying to be helpful.  On the surface it does seem like thinking about all the people in poverty would make you feel better about your own stress.  Sometimes it takes a big mental shift to realize this is the equivalent of telling yourself that losing a finger is not that bad if you think about all the people that have lost an arm.

I didn't say it would be right to say any of those things, just that I don't think I could stop myself.  Though to be honest, I don't think intent really matters when people are actually making the situation worse.  I'm sure there's a more polite way to say that they're not helping, but I wouldn't have the patience to find it.

[StarBright]

Generally when people say things like that, they're sincerely trying to be helpful.  On the surface it does seem like thinking about all the people in poverty would make you feel better about your own stress.  Sometimes it takes a big mental shift to realize this is the equivalent of telling yourself that losing a finger is not that bad if you think about all the people that have lost an arm.

Yep- I fully suspect they hoped my job was better and then just didn't know what to say when it wasn't. Also- Americans talk about work all the time! It seems like we don't know what else to talk about. but Midwesterners also seem to always feel the need to be positive - so how do you work around that? You just lie. And that is how "Minnesota Nice" was born.

 But that doesn't mean that comments like that are good for us to internalize! I'm working really hard on getting thoughts like "it could be worse" out of my internal monologue because they haven't served me well lately. I hope others do the same.

[Metalcat]

Holy s%#t, @Roots&Wings , what a crazy amount of grief and stress the stalker caused you... wishing you all the strength and luck in the world, and hope the authorities are doing what they are supposed to do to protect you.

Thanks for your kind words. It's crazy how the pandemic has spiked all kinds of burnout and increased domestic violence (apparently 1 in 5 women are stalked...never expected this).

I have no clue how police officers, EMTs, emergency room Dr's can function in stressful as hell conditions all the time, but somehow they are stress and boundary jedi masters (trying to learn their skills).

I've hit a wall with progress with the burnout, and maybe just need time for things to further improve. My memory's still shot, will that ever recover or is this a "new normal"?

No, they aren't. That's why suicide, addiction, and mental health issues are rampant in these populations.

I've hosted major events about burnout for medical professionals, it can be an ugly scene.

There are no super humans.
I've seen some of those seemingly Jedi professionals literally claw at their own faces in their sleep due to stress.

What's the solution to that?  Burning out medical professionals has a huge negative impact on everyone.  It seems like a field that just intrinsically would make it really hard not to burn people out, though.

Not really.

Difficult, emotionally taxing work doesn't cause burnout. Doing difficult, emotionally taxing work under unrealistic constraints with no support is what causes burnout.

I was in one of the highest burnout careers and my first job was killing me because my employer was an asshole. Meanwhile, my next employer was compassionate and prioritized our entire team being mentally healthy. The work was the same, in fact, I started taking on even more challenging and higher chance of failure cases because I was so supported.

Once I was able to ease up my pace, not be a slave to the bottom line, and not have to fight with my employer every time something didn't work out or a procedure needed to be redone for free because the outcome had been suboptimal, I actually started being highly energized by the work, even though it was incredibly difficult and emotionally intense.

It's the bullshit that burns people out, not the difficulty of the work.

[GodlessCommie]

There was a Freakonomics podcast, they explored some research that showed that being compassionate and emotionally connected to patients *reduced* burnout. Apparently, helping helps the helper. The effect shouldn't be limited to the medical profession, although they concentrated on this. The same research showed that burnout among medical professionals is causing systemic, society-wide problems.

[Metalcat]

There was a Freakonomics podcast, they explored some research that showed that being compassionate and emotionally connected to patients *reduced* burnout. Apparently, helping helps the helper. The effect shouldn't be limited to the medical profession, although they concentrated on this. The same research showed that burnout among medical professionals is causing systemic, society-wide problems.

Exactly, it's not caring that's the problem, it's not having the resources to be able to care.

My job became INFINITELY less stressful when I was able to work in a way that if a patient burst into tears that I had time to quietly sit with them and give them the space to experience their suffering, instead of checking the clock because I couldn't afford more than 3 more minutes in the room.

[mspym]

There was a Freakonomics podcast, they explored some research that showed that being compassionate and emotionally connected to patients *reduced* burnout. Apparently, helping helps the helper. The effect shouldn't be limited to the medical profession, although they concentrated on this. The same research showed that burnout among medical professionals is causing systemic, society-wide problems.

There is some real violence that we learn to do to ourselves and others as part of Becoming Working Professionals. It takes training to learn how to be willing to ignore suffering, both your own and others, and I think we learn it as a defense mechanism to be able to meet the requirements of capitalism. I stopped being a project manager because the truth is to be a *successful* PM you have to be willing to burn out your team. It’s meant to only be at crunchtime but it becomes the baseline. It was easier for me to be a resource defending myself against unreasonable expectations than it was to be the person trying to exploit others to meet unfeasible deadlines. It takes training to ignore the person crying in your exam room and go to the next one on the list.

But while this maladaption helps protect us in the short-term, it is still causing damage to ourselves and others, it’s just damage that’s easier to ignore, until burn-out and other major cumulative side effects make it impossible.

[Malee55]

What Malcat says is right. Caring is what gets most people into becoming a doctor or a paramedic. But when you don't have the resources to do your job to the best of your ability unless you are doing enormous hours of unpaid overtime, you become disillusioned and tired and stop caring. And hate yourself that you don't care about your patients.

I'm a nurse and we get the same thing. One of the reasons I know I need to leave is that I no longer emotionally care if my patient has pain. I still do my best to look after them, but it is now because I am a professional more than that I hate seeing them in pain.

I think a lot of the caring professions have this problem. And we then get people saying "you must have a vocation to be a nurse. I couldn't do it". But it is a job, and to be done properly needs to be resourced and managed properly. And being paid well to show that we are valued helps too.

[Morning Glory]

What Malcat says is right. Caring is what gets most people into becoming a doctor or a paramedic. But when you don't have the resources to do your job to the best of your ability unless you are doing enormous hours of unpaid overtime, you become disillusioned and tired and stop caring. And hate yourself that you don't care about your patients.

I'm a nurse and we get the same thing. One of the reasons I know I need to leave is that I no longer emotionally care if my patient has pain. I still do my best to look after them, but it is now because I am a professional more than that I hate seeing them in pain.

I think a lot of the caring professions have this problem. And we then get people saying "you must have a vocation to be a nurse. I couldn't do it". But it is a job, and to be done properly needs to be resourced and managed properly. And being paid well to show that we are valued helps too.

Ugh, that vocation crap is just a myth designed to turn us into the four Yorkshire men of the staff bathroom.  This book breaks it down pretty well.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3637904-saving-lives

 I still worked at the hospital when Covid started. Everyone was stressed out already and then the administration suddenly got worried about money and tried to make us take care of the same number of patients with three nurses that we used to with five, on top of the extra Covid protocols we had to do. My manager at the time even dared to say "nurses at xyz hospital have this patient load" (I transferred out of that department as soon as I could). Also one of the top doctors said that employees were getting Covid from "eating without masks" (I'm not making that up, it was in the Guardian US edition).  We are not robots. We need to eat. At the same time, their internal website was full of articles on mindfulness and gratitude (corporate speak for "suck it up"), and how we were "coming together". They even sent emails about it. Barf.

"Mindfulness and gratitude" are the new "thoughts and prayers".

[Metalcat]

What Malcat says is right. Caring is what gets most people into becoming a doctor or a paramedic. But when you don't have the resources to do your job to the best of your ability unless you are doing enormous hours of unpaid overtime, you become disillusioned and tired and stop caring. And hate yourself that you don't care about your patients.

I'm a nurse and we get the same thing. One of the reasons I know I need to leave is that I no longer emotionally care if my patient has pain. I still do my best to look after them, but it is now because I am a professional more than that I hate seeing them in pain.

I think a lot of the caring professions have this problem. And we then get people saying "you must have a vocation to be a nurse. I couldn't do it". But it is a job, and to be done properly needs to be resourced and managed properly. And being paid well to show that we are valued helps too.

Ugh, that vocation crap is just a myth designed to turn us into the four Yorkshire men of the staff bathroom.  This book breaks it down pretty well.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3637904-saving-lives

 I still worked at the hospital when Covid started. Everyone was stressed out already and then the administration suddenly got worried about money and tried to make us take care of the same number of patients with three nurses that we used to with five, on top of the extra Covid protocols we had to do. My manager at the time even dared to say "nurses at xyz hospital have this patient load" (I transferred out of that department as soon as I could). Also one of the top doctors said that employees were getting Covid from "eating without masks" (I'm not making that up, it was in the Guardian US edition).  We are not robots. We need to eat. At the same time, their internal website was full of articles on mindfulness and gratitude (corporate speak for "suck it up"), and how we were "coming together". They even sent emails about it. Barf.

"Mindfulness and gratitude" are the new "thoughts and prayers".

They're certainly bastardized to be.

[subhobroto]

Yes, there's a HUGE misinterpretation in our society that gratitude means sucking it and accepting what's shitty in your life.

That is NOT gratitude.

Proper, healthy gratitude actually encourages you to be less tolerant of bullshit that you shouldn't put up with. The more genuinely gratef you are for the things that truly help you thrive and be happy, the more protective you become of those things.

Gratitude is not convincing yourself to stay in a shitty situation just because it could be worse, or because society has indoctrinated you to think you *should* feel grateful for your career, or income, or whatever.

As someone who has lived both realities, I can firmly say that what my workaholic, achievement junkie self used to think was gratitude was sooooo unhealthy. What I experience now as gratitude looks NITHING like what I used to think it looked like.

Gratitude now makes me completely unwilling to allow my life to be worse. It makes me ferociously protective of whatever health and happiness I can hold onto.

This is very good stuff. I wish there was a way to follow your posts.

Gratitude does not mean bending over and yielding to bullshit.

Gratitude does mean being grateful for the true, good things that are valuable and standing strong so those true, good things continue to stay true and good

[lutorm]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

[Metalcat]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

I have to say that as much as I value stoicism, in the context of burnout, I completely disagree with this.

Everyone has an adaptive capacity and burnout is what happens when people exceed that adaptive capacity. It's what happens when they hit the limit of what they can psychologically and physiologically take and just keep taking it.

If someone is burning out, they have to proactively change *something*. Seek therapy, learn better boundaries, change their work environment, something.

I think stoicism is great *IF* you aren't actively engaging in a lifestyle that is damaging your health and well being. That's like employing stoicism to adapt to the discomfort of alcoholism so that you can put off quitting. It makes no sense.

Humans are adaptable, sure, but there's also no denying that the vast majority of people in our society are not adapting all that well. They're physically unhealthy and overwhelmingly suffering from mental health struggles. So when the current social pressures are predominantly making people sick, it's worth challenging them.

That's where the concept of gratitude gets perverted. If people's priorities are already set in a way that will injure them, then the things they feel they should be grateful for will also follow that damaged programming.

So they'll be in a job that they don't strictly need, their mental health will be declining, their physical health will be declining, their basic self care lapsing, their relationships suffering, and they'll continue to tell themselves they should be grateful for it because their paycheque is bigger than someone else's, or because their employer isn't as abusive as the last one.

If someone's priorities are set so that they're willing to choose to obliterate their own well being, then stoicism and gratitude and anything else that keeps them stagnating isn't helpful.

[Malee55]

And the other thing that does not help is when employers have mindfulness programs to help their employees with the stress of work. Without facing up to the fact that it is like having an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.  Mindfulness helps, but not at the levels of stress that many people are expected to cope with.

[ysette9]

And the other thing that does not help is when employers have mindfulness programs to help their employees with the stress of work. Without facing up to the fact that it is like having an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.  Mindfulness helps, but not at the levels of stress that many people are expected to cope with.

Oh heavens, yes. I remember going to one class at work that was about healthy habits and had an exercice in mindful eating. It was useful but I couldn’t get around the fact that the workday was structured such that if I took time to mindfully eat lunch then I would be going home later than I otherwise would in the evening.

[Luke Warm]

It's the bullshit that burns people out, not the difficulty of the work.

yes!

[Roots&Wings]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

I have to say that as much as I value stoicism, in the context of burnout, I completely disagree with this.

Everyone has an adaptive capacity and burnout is what happens when people exceed that adaptive capacity. It's what happens when they hit the limit of what they can psychologically and physiologically take and just keep taking it.

But some people are more resilient than others and have a higher capacity for managing stress. How much of this capacity can be learned (within a healthy context)?

People can live through absolute hell and come out stronger and brighter, while others can get stuck and languish. It seems like there's something to be learned from people who manage high stress situations and still thrive, right?

On the negative visualization "worse than" front, it was helpful for me to keep in mind a friend who lost her mom to Covid, how much worse that would've been, and how amazingly well she handled everything (she also thought my situation was worse and was able to draw some strength from that). When you're feeling like complete crap and barely functioning in a crippling state, it did help knowing there's a light on the other side and people who've gone through much worse and come out better.

[Metalcat]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

I have to say that as much as I value stoicism, in the context of burnout, I completely disagree with this.

Everyone has an adaptive capacity and burnout is what happens when people exceed that adaptive capacity. It's what happens when they hit the limit of what they can psychologically and physiologically take and just keep taking it.

But some people are more resilient than others and have a higher capacity for managing stress. How much of this capacity can be learned (within a healthy context)?

People can live through absolute hell and come out stronger and brighter, while others can get stuck and languish. It seems like there's something to be learned from people who manage high stress situations and still thrive, right?

On the negative visualization "worse than" front, it was helpful for me to keep in mind a friend who lost her mom to Covid, how much worse that would've been, and how amazingly well she handled everything (she also thought my situation was worse and was able to draw some strength from that). When you're feeling like complete crap and barely functioning in a crippling state, it did help knowing there's a light on the other side and people who've gone through much worse and come out better.

Yeah, of course people with more adaptive capacity have more adaptive capacity, that's a given in what I said. I specified that it's a problem when people push past their adaptive capacity. That is the point at which further strain does NOT produce more resilience, it produces ongoing erosion of capacity and actually makes the person weaker.

That's what burnout is. So when someone is experiencing burnout, they are actually destroying their capacity bit by bit, and sometimes even permanently if it goes on too long.

What I'm saying is that a lot of people who are living lives that are unsustainable use a toxic form of gratitude and "it could be worse" to push themselves to stay in those unsustainable situations instead of proactively trying to resolve them.

I too used those same tools to get through my toxic, abusive doctorate, but I knew there was an end to it and the unsustainable situations wasn't going to be sustained indefinitely. I was actively working towards ending the situation as quickly as possible.

However, once I graduated, it took a lot of therapy to not automatically lean on that behaviour to tolerate bad situations that I technically didn't have to stay in.

That's the difference. If that kind of "it could be worse" thinking is keeping you in a situation that is harming you, then it's toxic and pathological. If it's helping you get through to a better place as effectively as possible, then it's healthy.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
If the decisions you are making in life are making you healthier and stronger, then they're productive. If they are making you sicker and weaker, then they are destructive.

The problem is that so many people are programmed to disregard their own well being for the sake of societally defined "success".

[Morning Glory]

Resilience is another one of those buzzwords that get used as an excuse. Resilience training is much cheaper than providing reasonable workloads!

Negative visualization actually made me feel worse because I felt like I shouldn't be upset over such trivial concerns.

[Metalcat]

Resilience is another one of those buzzwords that get used as an excuse. Resilience training is much cheaper than providing reasonable workloads!

Negative visualization actually made me feel worse because I felt like I shouldn't be upset over such trivial concerns.

This is exactly my point.

Resilience, gratitude, mindfulness, these are all AMAZING tools when used in the service of actual mental wellness, not used in service of keeping people stuck in toxic situations.

The motivation behind using them is what matters.

Humans do have incredible capacity for challenge, but a shockingly limited capacity for things that actively damage our mental health.

The key is in understanding that it's not the degree of challenge that makes a situation mentally and physiologically damaging. It's the type of struggle that is damaging.

A lot of people in extremely hard and demanding jobs for just fine as long as they have adequate respect, support, and autonomy.

I repeat, it's the bullshit that destroys people, not the difficulty of a challenge.

[OtherJen]

Negative visualization actually made me feel worse because I felt like I shouldn't be upset over such trivial concerns.

Same. I have a really hard time letting myself relax or feel any negative emotions without a good side-helping of guilt because I've been told my whole life how easy I have things, I shouldn't complain, everyone else has it worse, etc. It's pretty much the coping mechanism in my extended family. I'm fairly numb at this point, and terrible at asking for help or support because everyone else has it worse, so therefore I should support them and not expect anything in return. I don't even feel like I can celebrate the few good things that have happened this year (e.g., a big promotion and raise, election to a high-ranking nonprofit board position) because other people are having such a shit time of things and no one wants to hear about it.

[Roots&Wings]

That's the difference. If that kind of "it could be worse" thinking is keeping you in a situation that is harming you, then it's toxic and pathological. If it's helping you get through to a better place as effectively as possible, then it's healthy.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
If the decisions you are making in life are making you healthier and stronger, then they're productive. If they are making you sicker and weaker, then they are destructive.

That all makes sense, I get what you're saying. As someone in the burnout recovery phase, I just wish there were some Jedi mind tricks to make recovery go faster. The two main things on my mind are:

1) how can I get better as quickly as possible (of course everyone wants a "quick fix" and things can take time to figure out), and
2) how can I try to prevent this from happening in future/what can I learn from others who handle stress better

With the memory loss, it might be a new normal: "burnout has permanent neurological effects on everything from problem solving to memory to emotional regulation" https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-playing-field/202101/how-recover-burnout.

But still possible treatment with time: "Active recovery...ensures that the brain stays off and the body can mend. By flushing stress hormones from the system and shifting brain waves into alpha (first), then delta (later), active recovery practices allow us to reset."

[OtherJen]

That's the difference. If that kind of "it could be worse" thinking is keeping you in a situation that is harming you, then it's toxic and pathological. If it's helping you get through to a better place as effectively as possible, then it's healthy.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
If the decisions you are making in life are making you healthier and stronger, then they're productive. If they are making you sicker and weaker, then they are destructive.

That all makes sense, I get what you're saying. As someone in the burnout recovery phase, I just wish there were some Jedi mind tricks to make recovery go faster. The two main things on my mind are:

1) how can I get better as quickly as possible (of course everyone wants a "quick fix" and things can take time to figure out), and
2) how can I try to prevent this from happening in future/what can I learn from others who handle stress better

With the memory loss, it might be a new normal: "burnout has permanent neurological effects on everything from problem solving to memory to emotional regulation" https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-playing-field/202101/how-recover-burnout.

But still possible treatment with time: "Active recovery...ensures that the brain stays off and the body can mend. By flushing stress hormones from the system and shifting brain waves into alpha (first), then delta (later), active recovery practices allow us to reset."

There's no rushing it. Attempting a quick fix will make the problem worse. It took a few years for me. Things got better, but slowly.

That's not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth. I agree with the description of active recovery in that article—a regular yoga practice probably saved my brain and life—but even it won't reduce the duration of recovery from years to weeks. It will encourage a more durable recovery and force you to practice good self-care and be mindful of your body's signs and symptoms. Those are more important than the speed at which recovery occurs.

[Roots&Wings]

^ Thanks @OtherJen that's exactly what I wanted to hear, and why I love this forum. Knowing what to expect/what others have been through is so very helpful.

[Metalcat]

That's the difference. If that kind of "it could be worse" thinking is keeping you in a situation that is harming you, then it's toxic and pathological. If it's helping you get through to a better place as effectively as possible, then it's healthy.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
If the decisions you are making in life are making you healthier and stronger, then they're productive. If they are making you sicker and weaker, then they are destructive.

That all makes sense, I get what you're saying. As someone in the burnout recovery phase, I just wish there were some Jedi mind tricks to make recovery go faster. The two main things on my mind are:

1) how can I get better as quickly as possible (of course everyone wants a "quick fix" and things can take time to figure out), and
2) how can I try to prevent this from happening in future/what can I learn from others who handle stress better

With the memory loss, it might be a new normal: "burnout has permanent neurological effects on everything from problem solving to memory to emotional regulation" https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-playing-field/202101/how-recover-burnout.

But still possible treatment with time: "Active recovery...ensures that the brain stays off and the body can mend. By flushing stress hormones from the system and shifting brain waves into alpha (first), then delta (later), active recovery practices allow us to reset."

There's no rushing it. Attempting a quick fix will make the problem worse. It took a few years for me. Things got better, but slowly.

That's not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth. I agree with the description of active recovery in that article—a regular yoga practice probably saved my brain and life—but even it won't reduce the duration of recovery from years to weeks. It will encourage a more durable recovery and force you to practice good self-care and be mindful of your body's signs and symptoms. Those are more important than the speed at which recovery occurs.

Yep, it's like rehab after major hip surgery.

It takes as long as it takes to heal, you put in a lot of work every day to make it heal optimally, and some people may end up better off than they were before, but people back to where they were, and some people forever dealing with residual pain.

Regardless, it's a healing process that takes an enormous amount of dedication.

Meanwhile what most people do is just keep walking on gone fucked up hip, causing more and more permanent damage and forcing themselves to be grateful that at least they can still walk a bit compared to those poor paralyzed folks.

Healing takes time and commitment. But first it takes removal of the injuring force.

[HenryDavid]

A useful question, for me, is to ask: "is this thing taking me in a good direction?"
Or phrased another way "what is this thing leading me towards, in one year or five or ten? And do I like that?" (It's fun to find examples, other people who are further down a similar path: do I want to be them?)

It's not about how fast, or how easy, or how much fun. It's just the general tendency, the direction.
The "thing" could be a job, a relationship, any habit, a place to live, a way of thinking. Anything.

If you start to see more and more of what you value, that's a good direction, in the context of what you value at that moment. Which can change.
If less . . . . you know what to do. (Maybe not how to do it, but that's another whole topic.)

[iluvzbeach]

@HenryDavid, thank you for the most excellent response above. I can think of so many things in life where that questioning could come in handy. I’m saving this for future use.

[lutorm]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

I have to say that as much as I value stoicism, in the context of burnout, I completely disagree with this.

...

You said you completely disagreed with me and then went on to say that you shouldn't use Stoicism as an excuse to not change things. Which is exactly what I said, so I'm not sure what it is you disagreed with.

[Metalcat]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

I have to say that as much as I value stoicism, in the context of burnout, I completely disagree with this.

...

You said you completely disagreed with me and then went on to say that you shouldn't use Stoicism as an excuse to not change things. Which is exactly what I said, so I'm not sure what it is you disagreed with.

I don't believe that visualizing that things could be worse helps in a toxic and damaging situation. For a lot of people, it's extremely difficult to perceive how bad a situation is while they're in it.

Of course I'm talking specifically about cases of burnout, which I believe constitute an urgent health crisis that should be taken seriously, which sadly, most people don't.

[lutorm]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

I have to say that as much as I value stoicism, in the context of burnout, I completely disagree with this.

...

You said you completely disagreed with me and then went on to say that you shouldn't use Stoicism as an excuse to not change things. Which is exactly what I said, so I'm not sure what it is you disagreed with.

I don't believe that visualizing that things could be worse helps in a toxic and damaging situation. For a lot of people, it's extremely difficult to perceive how bad a situation is while they're in it.

Of course I'm talking specifically about cases of burnout, which I believe constitute an urgent health crisis that should be taken seriously, which sadly, most people don't.

So you're saying visualizing things could be worse is bad in burnout cases because it will make it less likely to take the situation seriously? I guess that's fair.

Is burnout a binary thing, though? I always assumed that there was a continuum between "my work is awesome" and full-on burnout. At what point do you think Stoicism becomes counterproductive?

[Metalcat]

I mean, there's two sides to this. On the one hand, gratitude that things could suck more shouldn't be used as an excuse to not make them better. But on the other, one of the basic tenets of Stoicism is the idea of negative visualization. Humans are extremely adaptable and can be happy in a multitude of circumstances, and focusing on all the good things you still have definitely does make a shitty situation more bearable. It's not an alternative to making things better, it's in addition.

I have to say that as much as I value stoicism, in the context of burnout, I completely disagree with this.

...

You said you completely disagreed with me and then went on to say that you shouldn't use Stoicism as an excuse to not change things. Which is exactly what I said, so I'm not sure what it is you disagreed with.

I don't believe that visualizing that things could be worse helps in a toxic and damaging situation. For a lot of people, it's extremely difficult to perceive how bad a situation is while they're in it.

Of course I'm talking specifically about cases of burnout, which I believe constitute an urgent health crisis that should be taken seriously, which sadly, most people don't.

So you're saying visualizing things could be worse is bad in burnout cases because it will make it less likely to take the situation seriously? I guess that's fair.

Is burnout a binary thing, though? I always assumed that there was a continuum between "my work is awesome" and full-on burnout. At what point do you think Stoicism becomes counterproductive?

I don't really think there's a specific point, I think there are people who prioritize their well being and people who've been conditioned not to.

If the person's priorities are out of whack, stoicism is going to contribute to the worsening of their circumstances because they will employ it to be able to tolerate the negative conditions which can damage, are damaging, or will damage their overall well being.

Stoicism is helpful if the person is already aligned with priorities which will help them thrive and increase their overall well being.

The problem is that most people in our society have been conditioned to disregard their own wellbeing. Hence why these useful tools so often get co-opted to promote and sustain toxicity.

People don't get to a point of burnout where their memory starts failing and their bodies are riddles with inflammation, and they have panic attacks when they try to take holidays without systematically ignoring their own well being for a long time. That takes effort, that takes solid commitment, and the most common tool these people use is suck-it-up-stoicism and toxic gratitude where they convince themselves they've actually got it good, and hunker down and take as much as they can take.

[Roots&Wings]

There's no rushing it. Attempting a quick fix will make the problem worse. It took a few years for me. Things got better, but slowly.

That's not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth. I agree with the description of active recovery in that article—a regular yoga practice probably saved my brain and life—but even it won't reduce the duration of recovery from years to weeks. It will encourage a more durable recovery and force you to practice good self-care and be mindful of your body's signs and symptoms. Those are more important than the speed at which recovery occurs.

Yep, it's like rehab after major hip surgery.

It takes as long as it takes to heal, you put in a lot of work every day to make it heal optimally, and some people may end up better off than they were before, but people back to where they were, and some people forever dealing with residual pain.

Regardless, it's a healing process that takes an enormous amount of dedication.

Meanwhile what most people do is just keep walking on gone fucked up hip, causing more and more permanent damage and forcing themselves to be grateful that at least they can still walk a bit compared to those poor paralyzed folks.

Healing takes time and commitment. But first it takes removal of the injuring force.

Yeah, I feel a helluva lot better knowing this might take years, instead of it's been 3 months and progress has basically stalled, what the hell's wrong with me.

When I told our department head previously that these things can take years to resolve, there was total silence, followed by they hadn't noticed anything with my performance but that I should do whatever I needed.

Really curious if/when WHO will release burnout treatment guidelines given the "quick fix" mentality prevalent in so many workplaces and modern society, when the consensus seems to be this isn't something that can be a quick fix. But of course it's in everyone's best interest to address it.

Some great insight in this thread, really appreciate that too @HenryDavid!

[Metalcat]

There's no rushing it. Attempting a quick fix will make the problem worse. It took a few years for me. Things got better, but slowly.

That's not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth. I agree with the description of active recovery in that article—a regular yoga practice probably saved my brain and life—but even it won't reduce the duration of recovery from years to weeks. It will encourage a more durable recovery and force you to practice good self-care and be mindful of your body's signs and symptoms. Those are more important than the speed at which recovery occurs.

Yep, it's like rehab after major hip surgery.

It takes as long as it takes to heal, you put in a lot of work every day to make it heal optimally, and some people may end up better off than they were before, but people back to where they were, and some people forever dealing with residual pain.

Regardless, it's a healing process that takes an enormous amount of dedication.

Meanwhile what most people do is just keep walking on gone fucked up hip, causing more and more permanent damage and forcing themselves to be grateful that at least they can still walk a bit compared to those poor paralyzed folks.

Healing takes time and commitment. But first it takes removal of the injuring force.

Yeah, I feel a helluva lot better knowing this might take years, instead of it's been 3 months and progress has basically stalled, what the hell's wrong with me.

When I told our department head previously that these things can take years to resolve, there was total silence, followed by they hadn't noticed anything with my performance but that I should do whatever I needed.

Really curious if/when WHO will release burnout treatment guidelines given the "quick fix" mentality prevalent in so many workplaces and modern society, when the consensus seems to be this isn't something that can be a quick fix. But of course it's in everyone's best interest to address it.

Some great insight in this thread, really appreciate that too @HenryDavid!

The thing with burnout is that when it's bad, there is no fix, so someone can put out a bullshit guide all they want, but the people who are seriously burnt out wouldn't get anywhere with it and don't have the capacity for that.

I have hosted courses on burnout with one of the top happiness researchers in the US, and the message is always that it is a serious medical condition and should be treated as such.

[Roots&Wings]

There's no rushing it. Attempting a quick fix will make the problem worse. It took a few years for me. Things got better, but slowly.

That's not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth. I agree with the description of active recovery in that article—a regular yoga practice probably saved my brain and life—but even it won't reduce the duration of recovery from years to weeks. It will encourage a more durable recovery and force you to practice good self-care and be mindful of your body's signs and symptoms. Those are more important than the speed at which recovery occurs.

Yep, it's like rehab after major hip surgery.

It takes as long as it takes to heal, you put in a lot of work every day to make it heal optimally, and some people may end up better off than they were before, but people back to where they were, and some people forever dealing with residual pain.

Regardless, it's a healing process that takes an enormous amount of dedication.

Meanwhile what most people do is just keep walking on gone fucked up hip, causing more and more permanent damage and forcing themselves to be grateful that at least they can still walk a bit compared to those poor paralyzed folks.

Healing takes time and commitment. But first it takes removal of the injuring force.

Yeah, I feel a helluva lot better knowing this might take years, instead of it's been 3 months and progress has basically stalled, what the hell's wrong with me.

When I told our department head previously that these things can take years to resolve, there was total silence, followed by they hadn't noticed anything with my performance but that I should do whatever I needed.

Really curious if/when WHO will release burnout treatment guidelines given the "quick fix" mentality prevalent in so many workplaces and modern society, when the consensus seems to be this isn't something that can be a quick fix. But of course it's in everyone's best interest to address it.

Some great insight in this thread, really appreciate that too @HenryDavid!

The thing with burnout is that when it's bad, there is no fix, so someone can put out a bullshit guide all they want, but the people who are seriously burnt out wouldn't get anywhere with it and don't have the capacity for that.

I have hosted courses on burnout with one of the top happiness researchers in the US, and the message is always that it is a serious medical condition and should be treated as such.

Wait, what? There is no fix? I don't follow. When it's bad is when it has to be fixed.

That course sounds amazing, if there's any further details that can be shared, is it one we can take?

[Metalcat]

There's no rushing it. Attempting a quick fix will make the problem worse. It took a few years for me. Things got better, but slowly.

That's not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth. I agree with the description of active recovery in that article—a regular yoga practice probably saved my brain and life—but even it won't reduce the duration of recovery from years to weeks. It will encourage a more durable recovery and force you to practice good self-care and be mindful of your body's signs and symptoms. Those are more important than the speed at which recovery occurs.

Yep, it's like rehab after major hip surgery.

It takes as long as it takes to heal, you put in a lot of work every day to make it heal optimally, and some people may end up better off than they were before, but people back to where they were, and some people forever dealing with residual pain.

Regardless, it's a healing process that takes an enormous amount of dedication.

Meanwhile what most people do is just keep walking on gone fucked up hip, causing more and more permanent damage and forcing themselves to be grateful that at least they can still walk a bit compared to those poor paralyzed folks.

Healing takes time and commitment. But first it takes removal of the injuring force.

Yeah, I feel a helluva lot better knowing this might take years, instead of it's been 3 months and progress has basically stalled, what the hell's wrong with me.

When I told our department head previously that these things can take years to resolve, there was total silence, followed by they hadn't noticed anything with my performance but that I should do whatever I needed.

Really curious if/when WHO will release burnout treatment guidelines given the "quick fix" mentality prevalent in so many workplaces and modern society, when the consensus seems to be this isn't something that can be a quick fix. But of course it's in everyone's best interest to address it.

Some great insight in this thread, really appreciate that too @HenryDavid!

The thing with burnout is that when it's bad, there is no fix, so someone can put out a bullshit guide all they want, but the people who are seriously burnt out wouldn't get anywhere with it and don't have the capacity for that.

I have hosted courses on burnout with one of the top happiness researchers in the US, and the message is always that it is a serious medical condition and should be treated as such.

Wait, what? There is no fix? I don't follow. When it's bad is when it has to be fixed.

That course sounds amazing, if there's any further details that can be shared, is it one we can take?

No fix as in no simple quick fix.

There is healing, which isn't fixing.
Think of my hip analogy. The injured hip is the burnout, the surgery is leaving the job. Then healing takes place. You don't "fix" your hip after surgery, your hip heals. You have to do rehab to get it to heal as well as it can, but that's not you fixing it, that's you facilitating healing.

No matter what, you will have scars. Some people heal back to full function and some never do, and that depends on a combo of how bad the injury was, how quickly you stepped in and got the surgery, how well you did your rehab, and your body's capacity to heal.

Burnout is the same. You heal, which takes work and time, but there is no fix.

[GodlessCommie]

There is no mental without physical. Our every thought has a material manifestation in electro-chemical processes in the brain. Problems with mental health are problems in our very material brain. It is so complex that you can't go in with a scalpel and "fix" a problem - but it has (some, not perfectly understood) capacity for self-repair. Which we refer to as healing. So the hip analogy is more literal than may appear at the first glance.

[Metalcat]

There is no mental without physical. Our every thought has a material manifestation in electro-chemical processes in the brain. Problems with mental health are problems in our very material brain. It is so complex that you can't go in with a scalpel and "fix" a problem - but it has (some, not perfectly understood) capacity for self-repair. Which we refer to as healing. So the hip analogy is more literal than may appear at the first glance.

Yes! Thank you.

My analogy is very literal. People really underestimate the physiology of burnout. That's why I call it an urgent medical condition.