Author Topic: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?  (Read 58449 times)

Daisyedwards800

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Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« on: March 02, 2021, 07:28:49 PM »
Working from home until the pandemic is over and it's just exhausting.  I am an accounting manager (not in public), and I just feel like my entire life is running around fixing high stakes problems and being at the mercy of absolutely everyone.  Mistakes are a big deal with other people's money so there is a constant fear of making mistakes.  I have to review big wires and make sure reports are perfect, and answer a million questions of varying difficulty all day long, and keep track of tons of to-do items for myself and staff.  I am 38 and while the job isn't 24/7 (more like 8:30am to 5pm with some bouts of extra work), the work itself is hard.  I am tired.  I want to retire or maybe change careers but I am just breaking into the high-earning years in this industry so a few years of this will really pad my retirement.

Currently making $160,000 plus bonus and 401k employer profit sharing, and have around $470,000 in investments.  No house yet, but I'm in a HCOL area so renting makes more sense in this market.  My partner can retire in 6 years with a good pension and I was aiming for that as well but then I get sad thinking I will already be in my mid-40s and dealing with this stress for years.  My partner has about 30% more than me in savings/investments as well so we are pretty well set for regular retirement, now just aiming for a pretty early one.

I don't even know where to start finding something else I enjoy doing that will pay reasonably well.  Should I open up a tax prep shop and only work half the year?  Should I do something entirely different?  I like being outdoors and working with non-corporate people.  I am an older millennial and the spring since I was 21 of paying off loans, grad school, savings, building my career etc is like..endless.  Anyone else feel this way at my age?  I don't even have a HOUSE.

wageslave23

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2021, 07:52:48 PM »
If you are married, then I'd say you can quit now and find something different that you enjoy doing.  Between the two of you, you could retire now and have plenty to retire in locl area. If you aren't married it would be more risky.

Morning Glory

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2021, 07:57:49 PM »
I am 39. My situation is a bit different, but I am burned out by the constant anxiety hanging over my head of having to perform well. I've been in jobs where mistakes could be life and death. I am tired too, so fucking tired. It's been a rough year.

StarBright

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2021, 08:24:28 PM »
Posting for solidarity.

Am 39 and this year has been so hard in a way that I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I've been squeezed out and wrung dry.

I've moved my quitting timeline up and I have a spouse who is pretty supportive of that.

If your sig other is supportive, I really hope you consider taking a break.  I have several family members in various accounting, finance, and CPA positions and two of them went half time as they neared retirement. Depending on your role, is there a possibility for you to cut back or move to hourly consultant?

Also - I just read a book about millenial burnout (called Can't Even by Anne Helen Petersen) and it made me feel seen and less alone.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 07:07:49 AM by StarBright »

Mrs. Sloth

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2021, 08:36:52 PM »
You are not alone. I am similar in age as you and I have been burnt out for awhile. I am exhausted as well. You know yourself best...do you think you can make it until you hit your FIRE number?

Steeze

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2021, 08:42:44 PM »
I feel you...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 07:33:52 AM by Steeze »

Fish Sweet

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2021, 09:39:45 PM »
Is there any chance that you could take a sabbatical after this tax season?  Burnout is no joke, and frankly, if you don't make the effort to ease up, then your mind and/or body may very well force you to do so at the most inconvenient time possible.

I left a job with nothing lined up due to burnout last year-- hilariously, right before the pandemic hit.  It's been over a year since then, and it's the best thing I could have ever done for myself.  Looking back on that time, I can't believe I was trying to tell myself, "everything is fine, I'm just a bit tired, power through a few more years and you'll be FIRE free!"  I was FUCKED UP, not quite at the point of total mental breakdown yet, but I'm pretty sure I was getting there.  Even now, I'm still experiencing symptoms related to it - anxiety spikes, my memory is shot and I'm missing big gaps, and my ability to focus is just barely recovering.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2021, 01:22:53 AM »
If any of you is looking for another job, then don't count high salary as the main issue. Maybe those high paying jobs are so high paid, as no one would do them otherwise. If you are looking for something less stressfull, consider accepting a job for lower pay. And consider to take a break between those job.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2021, 02:52:18 AM »
Is it just home working in a pandemic that is getting you down or do you feel similarly to the idea of returning to an office environment? Could it be seasonal: either due to darker days or workload? Is there a way you can set boundaries around your workload or timelines? Say no, delegate tasks to your staff, highlight errors but don't fix them for people, have set responses for the most frequent or annoying questions?

I'm the same age and have similar thoughts about work (except that I much prefer home working). You are not alone.

I've found that being on the cusp of FIRE makes it easier for me to care slightly less about workload. I'll work to a high standard but say no to projects that aren't reasonable or requests for people who should know better. It's been less of a problem than I thought and it gives me more of my headspace back.

wageslave23

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2021, 06:25:57 AM »
Also wanted to add, I'm also an accountant.  At first I was a nervous wreck that I would make a mistake.  Then I realized that the worst thing that could happen is that I got fired.  And getting fired doesn't sound all that bad on most days...  so there's that.  Take advantage of the fact that you aren't the owner. You don't get much of the rewards and you shouldn't accept most of the risk.  You are a cog. Cogs shouldn't worry.

Nutty

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2021, 07:05:30 AM »
I worked in a small company and the stakes were high.  After getting the stick and not enough carrot to justify the anxiety, I mentally stopped caring which was my first warning sign.  Did the details, putting in long hours and updated the resume.  Raised expectations of everyone around me and put the responsibility on them.  Finally, got a new job and the relief was unreal leaving that one.  The sun rose and it was glorious.

New job is higher pay, more support in a supportive environment, and only 40 hours a week.  Semi-retired mentally and loving it.  Environment does make a difference and my mentor is retiring this week.  Can you change your attitude while collecting the paycheck?  I like the idea of pushing tasks to employees.  In my case, I had a few who stepped up and a few I had to hand hold still because that is what they were taught before me.  Everyone has different abilities and engagement.  Culture change is difficult, but can be done.  Raise the expectations of your direct reports and see who performs.  Encourage their development.  My boss basically said learn my job since it will be yours one day.  He was right.

Cheers and best wishes.  There are solutions and choosing one doesn't eliminate the others.

Burn out is real.  Either fix where you are or change where you are.

MsPeacock

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2021, 12:33:13 PM »
Very burned out. I work in behavioral health - running a moderately sized clinic and SVP for our larger organization. I still provide direct behavioral health care as well. We have worked remotely but the work pace has only increased and intensified. Working from home means there is no separation between work life and home life - and work has tended to spill all over my evenings and weekends. My clinical staff are starting to come apart at the seams. It is always emotionally draining work - but even more so when you are in the middle of the same stressors as every client you are working with. I took a vacation (now vaccinated and feeling safe enough to travel) and really had a very difficult coming back. Normally I love my work - and it isn't so much the work that is the issue, but the unrelenting stress of working in the context of the pandemic.

GuitarStv

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2021, 12:40:20 PM »
I'm turning 40 this year, and have been alternating between OK and burned out feeling most of this pandemic.  Working from home can be a bitch, doubly so when your 7 year old kid is also at home trying to do distance learning and constantly interrupting.  It's very hard to force yourself to stop working at the end of the day when you're trying to make up time for interruptions and when there's always another email to answer.

I enforce strict 'stop work' times now.  Nothing after 6:00pm or before 7:00am.  It helps a bit.

Morning Glory

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2021, 01:30:08 PM »
If any of you is looking for another job, then don't count high salary as the main issue. Maybe those high paying jobs are so high paid, as no one would do them otherwise. If you are looking for something less stressfull, consider accepting a job for lower pay. And consider to take a break between those job.

In the US it is difficult to take a break between jobs because of health insurance.  My husband doesn't work so I had to schedule my last day of my old job in January so that I wouldn't have an interruption in insurance coverage.  I ended up having my last day on the 4th. The new job didn't officially start until the 11th but I had a lot of preparation work to do (I am teaching in my field now) so I really didn't even get a day off.  I hated my last department at my old job and would have used some of my FU money to leave in November if it wasn't for the stupid health insurance.  They wouldn't even let me use my vacation time to quit sooner, instead they paid it out to me in a big check after I left.

Now I am dealing with having to change doctors because my new insurance has different network tiers.  I have a specialty evaluation scheduled for my child that my old provider ordered before we switched coverage, and now I need to get a referral from our new provider before the new insurance will cover it.  My husband wants to continue seeing his old psychiatrist too so he needed to meet with his new primary to get that referral too.   I really hope we get single payer soon.  I don't think anyone likes dealing with this kind of hassle.

A lot of my burnout has been from issues in my relationship with my husband as well as having little children.  We've had a string of non-covid-related health issues lately too.  Changing jobs didn't fix any of that, although I do like the new one better. 

My age is a big factor too. I have really started to question choices I made long ago that led me to where I am today (career, marriage, timing of children, etc.).  I think I would have gotten into this crisis sooner or later, the pandemic just hastened it.  I feel very trapped because I am responsible for supporting everyone so I can't afford to make mistakes or fail. At my old employer it was worse because last year they made some decisions that I strongly disagreed with but I was afraid to criticize them or complain too much for fear of losing my job. 

FIRE Artist

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2021, 01:41:43 PM »
If any of you is looking for another job, then don't count high salary as the main issue. Maybe those high paying jobs are so high paid, as no one would do them otherwise. If you are looking for something less stressfull, consider accepting a job for lower pay. And consider to take a break between those job.

I agree with this.  I was 39 when I was feeling burn out as well (seems to be a trend here), I left a high paying, high competition, high expectation, 24 x 7 job for a 60% total comp cut by joining the public sector.  It definitely slowed down my FIRE plans, but I gained more than that in my sanity and well being. 

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2021, 01:57:43 PM »
If any of you is looking for another job, then don't count high salary as the main issue. Maybe those high paying jobs are so high paid, as no one would do them otherwise. If you are looking for something less stressfull, consider accepting a job for lower pay. And consider to take a break between those job.

I agree with this.  I was 39 when I was feeling burn out as well (seems to be a trend here), I left a high paying, high competition, high expectation, 24 x 7 job for a 60% total comp cut by joining the public sector.  It definitely slowed down my FIRE plans, but I gained more than that in my sanity and well being.

Very interesting to hear someone ahead of the late-30's burn out cohort. Looking back, do you have thoughts on why it manifested at 39? Are you confident now that it was a change rather than a phase? Anything you'd do differently if you were 38 again?

Anyone else who's come out the other side of this?

mozar

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2021, 02:36:04 PM »
I'm 38 now. I was an accountant for ten years and I just couldn't take it anymore. I took a sabbatical and I'm retraining for a new career. I would probably have an extra 200k in the stock market by now if I had stayed but it wasn't worth my mental health.

FIRE Artist

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2021, 02:43:40 PM »
If I were 38 again with my current life experience, I would have left my job earlier.  While my current job has slowed down my progression towards FIRE, it has allowed me to actually start living a higher quality of life while still working and I am content with that.  I actually think that this concept is something that is missed in discussions about the quest for FIRE. 

Why 39?  Not sure exactly, but I can say that I was like the frog in the boiling pot, the stress was there long before I finally hit the wall, and definitely with 40 looming I was taking stock of my life and it looked something like this...I have $$$$ money stacked up, but nothing tangible to show for it (I was an expat moving countries/jobs every 2-3 years - oil patch), no house, no normal relationships, never saw my family etc.  I finally recognized that my relationship with my employer was the exact same as a relationship with an abusive partner and it was time to get myself out of it.  It took a good 6 months to decompress, and a good year before I stopped having dreams about my former job.  Now 8 years on, I can't imagine how I ever lasted as long as I did. 

I remember once being on a corporate course with a bunch of international managers and as an ice breaker we all had to share what we liked to do in our spare time.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US talked about something they used to like to do...no one had current active hobbies. 

svndezafrohman

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2021, 03:08:40 PM »
I'm 38 now. I was an accountant for ten years and I just couldn't take it anymore. I took a sabbatical and I'm retraining for a new career. I would probably have an extra 200k in the stock market by now if I had stayed but it wasn't worth my mental health.

What is the new career?

Morning Glory

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2021, 03:28:16 PM »
I have used the frog in the boiling pot metaphor to describe my relationship with my husband. I just put up with everything for so long and got used to it.  I was working two jobs and had to do all the housework too, while he stayed home with the kids.  I get that staying home from kids is work but I still had to do all of the mental load stuff like making appointments and dealing with the school even though he was the one staying home.  He would yell and be verbally abusive sometimes too.  I finally snapped and threatened to leave him just a few months ago.  Since then things have gotten better since he is getting help with his anger issues and also helping around the house more.  I don't know why I didn't do that years ago. Something about turning 39 triggered it.

Villanelle

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2021, 04:31:03 PM »
What stands out for me is that you start off by framing things in terms of Covid, but most of the things you describe seem to have little to do with Covid or WFH.  So for me the first order of business would be to determine if it is the specific job I hate, the industry in general, or mostly just doing my job during Covid limitations. 

tooqk4u22

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2021, 05:11:47 PM »
If any of you is looking for another job, then don't count high salary as the main issue. Maybe those high paying jobs are so high paid, as no one would do them otherwise. If you are looking for something less stressfull, consider accepting a job for lower pay. And consider to take a break between those job.

I agree with this.  I was 39 when I was feeling burn out as well (seems to be a trend here), I left a high paying, high competition, high expectation, 24 x 7 job for a 60% total comp cut by joining the public sector.  It definitely slowed down my FIRE plans, but I gained more than that in my sanity and well being.

Very interesting to hear someone ahead of the late-30's burn out cohort. Looking back, do you have thoughts on why it manifested at 39? Are you confident now that it was a change rather than a phase? Anything you'd do differently if you were 38 again?

Anyone else who's come out the other side of this?

I agree with this, generally speaking the more you make the more demands/expectations/stress are thrust upon you.   Can't tell you why but definitely stress definitely manifested into burn-out feelings in late thirties and only got worse into early 40's - convinced I needed the money for life, kids, FIRE, etc.    Certainly the work life balance contributed but so did the constant need to perform even when management already said the deck was stacked against us.   But hey, that's why we got the big bucks. 

Anyway, I FIRE'd mid-2019 and still feel burned-out, I mean everything is good and all but anytime the thought pops up in my mind or someone offers me work I cringe with the thought of dealing with any kind of manager (even if that manager is me), it's like its a form of PTSD.  Overall though the best indication that FIREing was good for me is that it was good for everyone else - I have had my kids and friends say to me and also to my DW that I am happier, more outgoing and engaged, and look better (maybe physically but I think what they mean is who I carry myself - like having a glow if that makes sense).    DW thinks so to, but she would lie to me to make me happy, haha, kids don't lie like that.

My advice is to not wait until its too late because it may be tough to be motivated or driven to do anything after that point of no return.    High pay, ego, praise, social circle, etc are all handcuffs that can guide you into the abyss.   

« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 05:16:12 PM by tooqk4u22 »

mozar

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2021, 05:58:03 PM »
Quote
What is the new career?

High school math teacher. 

Quote
High pay, ego, praise, social circle, etc are all handcuffs that can guide you into the abyss.
Scary stuff

E.T.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2021, 05:59:20 PM »
I'll add my story as another voice of caution if you're thinking of toughing it out for higher pay, I did that for too long with my previous high stress job and I think it has temporarily broken my brain. It's a bummer because I changed jobs last summer thinking it would help but instead I'm just doing terribly at my new job and feeling massively burned out. The new job is lower pressure and way lower stakes but I think I'm just not capable of what I normally would be right now. I think all the stress of the past year has really messed me up and it's probably going to take me awhile to recover.

OtherJen

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2021, 06:31:22 PM »
I'll add my story as another voice of caution if you're thinking of toughing it out for higher pay, I did that for too long with my previous high stress job and I think it has temporarily broken my brain. It's a bummer because I changed jobs last summer thinking it would help but instead I'm just doing terribly at my new job and feeling massively burned out. The new job is lower pressure and way lower stakes but I think I'm just not capable of what I normally would be right now. I think all the stress of the past year has really messed me up and it's probably going to take me awhile to recover.

Unfortunately, burnout does break your brain. It took me a few years before I was mostly back to normal. Happily, recovery is possible but you have to prioritize yourself.

If your new job is lower stakes, are you actually doing terribly or are you putting unnecessary pressure on yourself? It’s okay to be average right now. Meet the requirements of the lower-stakes job, get paid, let yourself heal.

Morning Glory

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2021, 07:16:23 PM »
I'll add my story as another voice of caution if you're thinking of toughing it out for higher pay, I did that for too long with my previous high stress job and I think it has temporarily broken my brain. It's a bummer because I changed jobs last summer thinking it would help but instead I'm just doing terribly at my new job and feeling massively burned out. The new job is lower pressure and way lower stakes but I think I'm just not capable of what I normally would be right now. I think all the stress of the past year has really messed me up and it's probably going to take me awhile to recover.

Me too. Huge amount of impostor syndrome right now, even though I like the job. I watched my zoom recording the other day and it wasn't great. 

I'm still getting memory lapses and paranoia that I will forget about some crucial task. I travelled to another town for work the other day and got a third of the way home before realizing I left my purse there.

life_travel

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2021, 03:30:13 AM »
Oh wow, I didn't realise my memory lapses and generally poor memory (now) is due to burn out!

I left my decent-paid high stress corporate job that I had for over 10 years , early last year. Since then I took a few months off, retrained and now started work in a low paid , less stress job that is physical , can be emotionally draining but not much thinking involved. And I struggle! With more than two instructions at once, i lose it, and i used to pride myself on having exceptionally good memory. I thought it's age ( over 40) but maybe it's burnout ?

This low paid job is flexible so I work part time and I can choose my hours ( 24/7, but I'll never do night shifts), it's giving me a breather to decide what to do next .. FI is probably still 5-6 years away.  However I may work very part time ( 8-10 hrs per week) for a lot longer , taking slower road to FI .

I really hope my memory, concentration and anxiety improves with time. It gives me hope reading that for others it took a few years , as it's only been 12 months for me.

LightTripper

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2021, 04:17:36 AM »
I hit burnout in my late 30s too.  I think for me I'd just been doing my job too long.  My working conditions actually probably improved from my early 30s.  In my early 30s I had the double whammy of lots of responsibilities (because I was seen as "senior") but also little control (because I still had internal bosses, so if they were badly organised I'd still have lots of last minute deadlines etc.)  In my late 30s I worked increasingly on projects I'd sourced myself, which meant I had more visibility and control over upcoming pinch points (still not perfect, but better than in my early 30s with another layer of management inbetween me and the client).  So I don't think it was really a worsening of working conditions burning me out: more just a feeling of "been there done that" over all the good aspects of my job, and "oh shit, here we go again" on all the bad bits. 

For me, having kids (late) extended my ability to tough it out for a few more years.  I had my first child at 39 and had 7 months' maternity leave.  Then had my second child at 42 and another 8 months "off" (though that one was a lot less of a break because I had a toddler too and we had a lot of "life" stuff going on).  Still, they say "a change is as good as a rest" and that was true for me.

I started work again in 2018 and did 2 full years before Covid hit.  I'd been planning to go part time during 2020 (as I finally conceded to myself I was FI), but felt a responsibility during Covid not to turn any work down as that could lead to juniors being let go.  This year I have gone down to 3 days a week, and my plan is to drop further or even to zero later in the year. 

I'm sure if I hadn't had my periods of maternity leave I would have needed to call it a day earlier.  I definitely felt a bit recharged and reset after those periods - but I got back to burnt out within a few months each time.

It's been interesting going part time this year.  I do feel less burnt out and I've really appreciated being able to get on top of domestic paperwork and sorting out years of accumulated Lifemin that I had got behind on.  But I haven't regained the real highs/satisfaction I used to get from my job.  It's fine but not fun.  Obviously I don't expect it to be fun all the time, but it's really very rare now that I get a high from work, whereas it used to be a fairly regular occurrence.

Anyway, this is just to say, that I think this feeling is pretty common for that kind of age. I can imagine if you have older children and more responsibilities outside work it only makes it more intense.


Loretta

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2021, 04:24:19 AM »
Posting to follow. 

43 year old Fed here and typically I change positions every couple years in my organization but I dread every possibility and the coworkers seem to just get meaner and meaner.  I catch myself snapping at the nice coworkers.  7 more years until minimum retirement age. 

hoodedfalcon

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2021, 06:21:16 AM »
42, about to turn 43. I hit burnout a few years back, moved states, tried to change careers. But then got sucked back into a role very similar, but even more stressful, than the role I'd walked away from. I've kept my shit together for this job for 2.5 years now, but it ain't easy. Student Loan forgiveness application is pending. Once that comes through (90K of federal student loan debt has been a noose around my neck), I will reevaluate. Not ready to FIRE yet, but have enough to take a couple of years off. But the worry is getting back into the working world after experiencing the bliss of gardening, walking in the woods, and tinkering. I could also approach my current employer about a new role, fewer hours, less stress....just waiting for that loan forgiveness.....

hudsoncat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2021, 09:11:20 AM »
Turning 39 this year... I really was starting to hit burnout pre-COVID. Then work from home hit and suddenly it wasn't so bad for a bit. I think at least partially because my job changed drastically and I always love a new challenge. So it was exciting! I got to flex my creative muscles! I got to learn and do new things!

But as the lines between home and work have blurred even more than they used to be (I've always struggled with work/life balance, it's an on-going issue across my field due to the nature of the field) and the pressure to do more, produce more, be available more... I feel the burnout stress returning. I do think some of it would go away with a new job (new challenge, etc). But what I cannot figure out is how much the burnout is tied to my current role and I just need a change vs. how much it is tied to the field I work in.

Ugh. There are no easy answers in this. But I am starting with setting firmer boundaries between home/work time and updating my resume.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2021, 09:16:46 AM »
By the time you find yourself coming to an internet forum and asking strangers for advice on your burnout, you're usually a few years overdue in doing something about it.

I started as a medical professional at 31 and hit the ground running so hard that burnout was pretty much guaranteed. By 34 I had full blown physiological burnout. I spent my honeymoon, which was the first vacation I had taken in 3 years, sick and panic stricken the entire time.

The thing was, I was doing the kind of work and making the kind of money that no one in my industry gets to make in their early years. I had a "dream job" that my colleagues would slit my throat for. Because of this, the fucking lunatic I was working for knew I wasn't going anywhere.

I had worked so hard to get to that point, anything else felt like failure or giving up.

Well, I hit a wall so hard that I had no choice but to quit. I remember several months before that point, every morning, standing at my front door having a hard time willing myself to open the door handle and actually leave the house. My body was literally fighting me going to work.

Anyhoo, I quit a few months after the honeymoon debacle, took a massive pay cut AND a huge step down in terms of my role. It was the best decision I could possibly make, and in the end, I worked my magic on the new workplace and ended up in an even more prestigious and lucrative position than the first one.

Now, that wasn't a natural consequence. Like others in this thread, I would have likely ended up in the exact same situation I had been in over and over again. However, I sought out therapy specifically to address my workplace burnout, learned the patterns of behaviour that put me at risk for it, established new patterns, and extremely firm boundaries.

Those of us who burnout do so because of a series of LEARNED patterns of behaviour that set us up to burnout, namely a value system where we consider our personal well being to be a resource worth sacrificing for the desired outcomes of our superiors.

That's why it takes SO FUCKING LONG for burnt out people to even realize what's happening, and even longer to do something about it. Because it feels normal, and worse, it feels honourable.

Me? I now feel embarrassed by how burnt out I let myself get. It's now anathema to me. But that took YEARS of committed therapy work to completely rewire my identity and sense of self, which I had coded for so long through my "accomplishments".

So yeah, take this seriously. Treat it as the medical emergency that it is, and don't assign external causes to it. Nothing made you burnout. YOU burnt out. You have limited resources and you over spent without realizing it and now you're up to your eyeballs in mental-health debt. And just like real debt, it won't just go away once you stop over spending. It will take time, possibly months or years to pay it off.

Take this seriously. No one else has the power to take care of you.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2021, 09:31:49 AM »
I'll add my story as another voice of caution if you're thinking of toughing it out for higher pay, I did that for too long with my previous high stress job and I think it has temporarily broken my brain. It's a bummer because I changed jobs last summer thinking it would help but instead I'm just doing terribly at my new job and feeling massively burned out. The new job is lower pressure and way lower stakes but I think I'm just not capable of what I normally would be right now. I think all the stress of the past year has really messed me up and it's probably going to take me awhile to recover.

Unfortunately, burnout does break your brain. It took me a few years before I was mostly back to normal. Happily, recovery is possible but you have to prioritize yourself.

If your new job is lower stakes, are you actually doing terribly or are you putting unnecessary pressure on yourself? It’s okay to be average right now. Meet the requirements of the lower-stakes job, get paid, let yourself heal.

That's good advice and I'm glad to hear that you were able to heal after some time. I definitely am performing poorly but I'm lucky in that the job role is new so I'm kind of defining it and my new boss is really nice and has basically given me a year to try and figure things out. I'm trying to get my physical health back in order and I'm hoping with time and care my brain will go back to normal too. Now that I know better I won't ever work in a job that was that high stress for me again. I think it's better to leave too early and miss out on money than stay too late and risk your mental health.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2021, 09:37:21 AM »
I'll add my story as another voice of caution if you're thinking of toughing it out for higher pay, I did that for too long with my previous high stress job and I think it has temporarily broken my brain. It's a bummer because I changed jobs last summer thinking it would help but instead I'm just doing terribly at my new job and feeling massively burned out. The new job is lower pressure and way lower stakes but I think I'm just not capable of what I normally would be right now. I think all the stress of the past year has really messed me up and it's probably going to take me awhile to recover.

Unfortunately, burnout does break your brain. It took me a few years before I was mostly back to normal. Happily, recovery is possible but you have to prioritize yourself.

If your new job is lower stakes, are you actually doing terribly or are you putting unnecessary pressure on yourself? It’s okay to be average right now. Meet the requirements of the lower-stakes job, get paid, let yourself heal.

That's good advice and I'm glad to hear that you were able to heal after some time. I definitely am performing poorly but I'm lucky in that the job role is new so I'm kind of defining it and my new boss is really nice and has basically given me a year to try and figure things out. I'm trying to get my physical health back in order and I'm hoping with time and care my brain will go back to normal too. Now that I know better I won't ever work in a job that was that high stress for me again. I think it's better to leave too early and miss out on money than stay too late and risk your mental health.

To put it in clearer terms, it's better to understand your limitations and always work within them rather than violate your limitations and crash the whole system.

You may still be capable of impressive things within those boundaries, but you may have to be much more selective about the work you take on in order to keep those boundaries firmly in place while performing at your optimal levels.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 09:54:27 AM by Malcat »

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2021, 09:44:19 AM »
I’m older than most here (53) but can add that this year has been one of the MOST stressful I’ve ever had, and I already work in a high stress industry. A couple months ago Dr put me on high blood pressure meds and that was a major wake up call.

Since then I’ve taken away my nightly coping wine and started putting up serious boundaries with the job. Working from home makes it all to easy to have the job invade our personal space. I’ve started taking random sick days “just because” and I booked a week off for “vacation.” Sure, there’s no where to go, but avoiding the job stressors is enough.

Take care of your well being and don’t fall victim to the drumbeat of false emergencies. Back off. No one will care in the long run, and things will shift as “normal” life returns.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2021, 11:08:01 AM »
I’m older than most here (53) but can add that this year has been one of the MOST stressful I’ve ever had, and I already work in a high stress industry. A couple months ago Dr put me on high blood pressure meds and that was a major wake up call.

Since then I’ve taken away my nightly coping wine and started putting up serious boundaries with the job. Working from home makes it all to easy to have the job invade our personal space. I’ve started taking random sick days “just because” and I booked a week off for “vacation.” Sure, there’s no where to go, but avoiding the job stressors is enough.

Take care of your well being and don’t fall victim to the drumbeat of false emergencies. Back off. No one will care in the long run, and things will shift as “normal” life returns.
Glad to hear another one above the 50 mark.  I'm 51 and my high stress time was 34 to 44.  Missed a lot of personal life stuff with the kids.  I was there but really at work most of the time.  Yes, it does take time to wind down and rewire when you put everyone above yourself.

The time with the kids is important and looking back, I missed a bunch.  Don't forget to breathe, smell the roses and watch sunrises.  They are glorious and helped me put things in perspective.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2021, 11:12:31 AM »
I’m older than most here (53) but can add that this year has been one of the MOST stressful I’ve ever had, and I already work in a high stress industry. A couple months ago Dr put me on high blood pressure meds and that was a major wake up call.

Since then I’ve taken away my nightly coping wine and started putting up serious boundaries with the job. Working from home makes it all to easy to have the job invade our personal space. I’ve started taking random sick days “just because” and I booked a week off for “vacation.” Sure, there’s no where to go, but avoiding the job stressors is enough.

Take care of your well being and don’t fall victim to the drumbeat of false emergencies. Back off. No one will care in the long run, and things will shift as “normal” life returns.
Glad to hear another one above the 50 mark.  I'm 51 and my high stress time was 34 to 44.  Missed a lot of personal life stuff with the kids.  I was there but really at work most of the time.  Yes, it does take time to wind down and rewire when you put everyone above yourself.

The time with the kids is important and looking back, I missed a bunch.  Don't forget to breathe, smell the roses and watch sunrises.  They are glorious and helped me put things in perspective.

That's typically where the dip in the "U" curve of happiness happens.

Around 40 is where there's typically a huge confluence of pressures, but still not enough sense of self preservation to tell the world to fuck off.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2021, 11:22:15 AM »
Oh wow, I didn't realise my memory lapses and generally poor memory (now) is due to burn out!

I left my decent-paid high stress corporate job that I had for over 10 years , early last year. Since then I took a few months off, retrained and now started work in a low paid , less stress job that is physical , can be emotionally draining but not much thinking involved. And I struggle! With more than two instructions at once, i lose it, and i used to pride myself on having exceptionally good memory. I thought it's age ( over 40) but maybe it's burnout ?

This low paid job is flexible so I work part time and I can choose my hours ( 24/7, but I'll never do night shifts), it's giving me a breather to decide what to do next .. FI is probably still 5-6 years away.  However I may work very part time ( 8-10 hrs per week) for a lot longer , taking slower road to FI .

I really hope my memory, concentration and anxiety improves with time. It gives me hope reading that for others it took a few years , as it's only been 12 months for me.

A few years ago I also had memory loss because of stress. I had a lot of stress at work, as well as a lot of stress at home. By the time I visited my GP to ask for a test for early dementia, my stress became less and my memory loss was not as severe anymore. My job had returned a bit more to normal and DH had his health under control, plus a few more issues solved.
By that time I still had to work for another year and a half. But DH and I both decided to work parttime in our remaining time. That helped a lot.

Nutty

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2021, 12:19:51 PM »
That's typically where the dip in the "U" curve of happiness happens.

Around 40 is where there's typically a huge confluence of pressures, but still not enough sense of self preservation to tell the world to fuck off.
I love your way of putting things.  Cuts to the bone, but there is no doubt what the point is.  I applaud your candor and wit.

Also note that when you are getting yourself into this mess, everything makes sense all the way to the edge of the cliff and sometimes all the way over it.  My DW was warning me and telling me the whole time as she is my conscience.  Hard to deny something when she is there assuring me that the cliff is there.

A confluence of factors.  Career (or the lack of one), children, spouse, the stress that can come from a family, and your own mortality confronting you.  Yep.  Lots of things happening that you may not be dealing with in a healthy or constructive way.  Wanna see my T-shirt?

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2021, 04:32:05 AM »
You have limited resources and you over spent without realizing it and now you're up to your eyeballs in mental-health debt. And just like real debt, it won't just go away once you stop over spending. It will take time, possibly months or years to pay it off.

Take this seriously. No one else has the power to take care of you.

Malcat's whole response really hit home with me and particularly this bit.

I actually saw a mid-life career coach in the summer of 2019, after some "tough love" from friends on a holiday in the Spring.  Those two things were really the trigger to me waking up to the fact that this was not normal (or honourable) and deciding to take action to change things in 2020 (slightly delayed/changed in nature by Covid hitting).  It was really helpful just to explain my situation to somebody who didn't know me or anything about it and *hear it coming out of my own mouth*, as if I was that stranger.  Really eye opening.  Definitely money well spent.

I am not fully "there" yet but heading in the right direction at least. 

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2021, 08:12:01 AM »
I don't hate work, it's just that it keeps me from doing what I want and living where I want to.  Only 846 days to go.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2021, 08:23:48 AM »
I was in a similar position to you until this year having stayed for years in a high pay/high stress/"always on" job. I recently made the shift to a lower stress, better work/life balance position and it's made a world of difference. It's not quite Coast FIRE because I'm working full time and am still paid handsomely but it feels like it in comparison to my previous position. A couple months in, I can say that I enjoy work more and feel much better. I can also contribute way more to my family (childcare, cooking, cleaning, etc) so the change has alleviated family stress as well.

Given the amount you've saved, I would strongly encourage you to think about looking for a different, lower stress position. Life's too short to waste in a job you don't like, that's killing you - even if it is highly paid or respected.

Aelias

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2021, 09:02:48 AM »
My husband and I are 38. We have both been working from home since the pandemic started and taking care of our three small kids: 8, 5, and 1.5.  We both had our annual reviews this week and were both counseled on our "tone" and being impatient with others.  We laughed and laughed because . . . uh, yeah, it's been a stressful fucking year and, yeah, I'm not surprised that some of my colleagues have sensed that in my "tone".  And the pandemic ain't over yet!

I feel burned out some days, but I have been trying to take some psychological space from my work because we are within a few years of FIRE.  So, every interaction at work, I remind myself that the goal is not to advance, not to over-achieve, but just to stick with it.  Do what I need to do and then find ways to spend the rest of my time boosting my energy reserves.  Mostly, whenever I can, I sleep.

But IT. IS. TOUGH.  And, quite frankly, I'm not sure how long this strategy is going to work.  It's really hard to be working as hard as we are and constantly dealing with demands (both explicit and implicit) that we really need to be "stepping up" and "leaning in" and "over delivering."  It's infuriating, and I have to actively work on letting go of my anger around it because, again, the goal is to just stick around and collect the paycheck for a few more years.

I can almost hear the folks who've made it to the other side of this shaking their heads in pity as I type this out.   I feel like an addict saying "Well, but I'm not all the way to rock bottom. Surely I can keep this going just a little bit longer."

Patton Oswalt has a wonderful bit about aging in his "I Love Everything" stand-up special: "So, what I do everyday… I park my car at the base of a hiking trail, then I walk away from my car… until I eventually… turn around… and walk back to my car. And that’s… That’s what I do. There I am… out there with all the other 50-year-olds, doing our little doom ovals. And if you were to fly a helicopter low over the Earth, you know what you would see? You’d see… people in their 20s gobbling drugs, eating delicious food, having sex. People in their 30s with actual jobs making the world run. People in their 40s… trying to fuck the 20-year-olds. And then us… gentle, surrendered, 50-year-olds, on our little… futility ovals."

That's what I feel like.  I feel like I'm stuck between the people goofing off and the people who have been around long enough to push work down the chain, and doing the work that makes the world run.  It's a lot.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 09:05:01 AM by Aelias »

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2021, 09:41:49 AM »
^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.

Of course there's always pressure to perform more, work harder, give more. That's kind of the job of management, but the missing piece of the puzzle is that it's also the job of the employees to manage their own resources responsibly.

I've managed a lot of people and I push and push and push, but I also told them straight up that I was never going to stop pushing them, so it was up to them to tell me where their limits are. Some people have tremendous capacities in some areas and huge limitations in others, so you never know what someone can do until you push them, but you also never know what their limits are until they communicate them.

It's also up to staff to advocate for recognition of their work, to quantify it for their superiors in the ways that really matter.

People frequently make the error of assuming that managers have a good sense of how their staff are performing and whether they're over burdened. Well, I can tell you from experience that most of us don't. Different staff have such wildly different capacities and skills, it's not at all intuitive what one person can or should be able to handle. 

What isn't received well is push back and complaining, and this is where a lot of people don't know how to communicate and maintain boundaries effectively without treating it like conflict.

So people try to speak up, but frequently elicit a negative response and become convinced that it's the setting of boundaries that doesn't work as opposed to issues with the execution.

Setting and defending boundaries is a skill, like any other, but it's one that society doesn't teach us because we're MUCH more useful to other people when we don't have them. I say this as someone who used to be TERRIBLE with work boundaries, but now feel quite confident that I could stand my ground with basically any management, and that doing so wouldn't hurt me professionally at all.

Aelias

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2021, 10:00:47 AM »
Of course there's always pressure to perform more, work harder, give more. That's kind of the job of management, but the missing piece of the puzzle is that it's also the job of the employees to manage their own resources responsibly.


I find this so interesting.  I'm in a position where I'm constantly advising managers on how to manage, particularly when it comes to difficult employees. 

I agree that part of being a manager is to push employees, which sometimes requires testing boundaries.  But I would think a quality of a good manager is knowing the difference between good, productive pressure and burnout level pressure.  I would also assume a manager has a sense of their subordinates workload and activity. 

@Malcat I appreciate that you're at least making it clear that you expect employees to articulate their needs and boundaries--a lot of managers don't, and as a result, employees don't feel they can articulate boundaries.

You're right that managers don't appreciate push back and complaining, but the line between appropriate boundary setting and complaining is extremely thin and extremely subjective.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2021, 10:01:28 AM »

What isn't received well is push back and complaining, and this is where a lot of people don't know how to communicate and maintain boundaries effectively without treating it like conflict.

So people try to speak up, but frequently elicit a negative response and become convinced that it's the setting of boundaries that doesn't work as opposed to issues with the execution.

Setting and defending boundaries is a skill, like any other, but it's one that society doesn't teach us because we're MUCH more useful to other people when we don't have them. I say this as someone who used to be TERRIBLE with work boundaries, but now feel quite confident that I could stand my ground with basically any management, and that doing so wouldn't hurt me professionally at all.

Now I'm curious... what's a good way to do this? Any time I push back I get the negative response, but with the FU money I don't really care, and I don't seem to get any repercussions. They're still going to be mortified when I leave soon, but if there's a good way to couch these kinds of discussions, I'm all ears.

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2021, 10:08:43 AM »
^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.


I am super intrigued by the quoted. At my office the cusper millenials are definitely the work horses and the ones who are having health issues.

I've wondered if it was surviving the Great Recession that created our work habits. Like we were old enough in 2008 that some of us had purchased homes, needed health insurance, had some traction with our student loans, and were definitely too old to move back in with our parents. We had essentially started "adulting" enough that the threat of losing that was pretty terrifying. I wonder if it was foundationally just really different for 27+ year olds compared to those just getting out of college?

Both my husband and I ended up making major career changes during the recession and the dread of having to do that again is a constant for me. Sometimes feels like the choice is to try to beat burn out in the career I have or switch fields or uproot again. The devil you know and all that.

 


Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2021, 10:15:16 AM »
Of course there's always pressure to perform more, work harder, give more. That's kind of the job of management, but the missing piece of the puzzle is that it's also the job of the employees to manage their own resources responsibly.


I find this so interesting.  I'm in a position where I'm constantly advising managers on how to manage, particularly when it comes to difficult employees. 

I agree that part of being a manager is to push employees, which sometimes requires testing boundaries.  But I would think a quality of a good manager is knowing the difference between good, productive pressure and burnout level pressure.  I would also assume a manager has a sense of their subordinates workload and activity. 

@Malcat I appreciate that you're at least making it clear that you expect employees to articulate their needs and boundaries--a lot of managers don't, and as a result, employees don't feel they can articulate boundaries.

You're right that managers don't appreciate push back and complaining, but the line between appropriate boundary setting and complaining is extremely thin and extremely subjective.

It is, it's a real challenge to find that balance and some conflict is unavoidable, especially with particularly bad managers, obviously. However, one should never voluntarily work for a particularly bad manager long-term anyway, that should be a personal boundary.

So assuming you're dealing with a not total-asshat manager, then yes, establishing and maintaining boundaries should be a critical part of an employee's skill set.

Should all managers know the difference between good pressure and excess pressure? Sure, in a magical, ideal world, yes, but I can say this as someone who has been guilty of pushing some staff far too hard, it's almost impossible to tell most of the time if they're hiding it.

I would have one staff member whom I could dump any amount of organizational work on and she would thrive, but another in the same role would crumble. Meanwhile the other had more natural leadership skills, so I could push her much harder to take on tasks that involved corralling other staff members, but the first woman would disintegrate under the pressure of having to communicate anything to other staff members.

These were women the same age, with the same education, in the same role. How could I possibly know their specific capacities in specific tasks if they didn't somehow communicate them to me???

Likewise, my last boss is a lovely, but kind of clueless person. We hired a new clinic manager together shortly before I left because I was doing most of the management. The manager was in awe of how valued I was in my role and how the owner was so cautious to never overburden me.

Flash forward and I visited the clinic a year after leaving and the owner is raving about how the new manager knows so much and has taken on so many extra accounting tasks that are saving the clinic so much money. She's so happy.

I talk to the manager after and in less than 3 minutes she's in tears sobbing about how she's over worked and feeling horribly under appreciated. She can't understand why the owner was so respectful of my burden, but is so nonchalant about dumping more and more on the manager's plate.

Well, I was extremely firm in my boundaries. The new manager isn't.
Same boss, totally different reality. Boss is not an asshole, she's one of the most caring employer's I've ever known, but she's busy and doesn't know what's going on unless people tell her.

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2021, 10:20:34 AM »

What isn't received well is push back and complaining, and this is where a lot of people don't know how to communicate and maintain boundaries effectively without treating it like conflict.

So people try to speak up, but frequently elicit a negative response and become convinced that it's the setting of boundaries that doesn't work as opposed to issues with the execution.

Setting and defending boundaries is a skill, like any other, but it's one that society doesn't teach us because we're MUCH more useful to other people when we don't have them. I say this as someone who used to be TERRIBLE with work boundaries, but now feel quite confident that I could stand my ground with basically any management, and that doing so wouldn't hurt me professionally at all.

Now I'm curious... what's a good way to do this? Any time I push back I get the negative response, but with the FU money I don't really care, and I don't seem to get any repercussions. They're still going to be mortified when I leave soon, but if there's a good way to couch these kinds of discussions, I'm all ears.

Grab yourself a good book on communicating boundaries. It really is a learned skill. And once I learned it, I actually got *more* respect in the workplace, not less.

The key is to never treat a boundary or respect like an unreasonable or exceptional thing to expect.

Metalcat

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Re: Feeling burned out. Anyone else?
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2021, 10:27:07 AM »
^I find the issue is that the late 30s-early/mid 40s crowd are fucking dreadful with boundaries. In general, not just in terms of work. Maybe it's a Gen X/cusper millenial thing, younger millenials seem to be much better with this in the workplace.


I am super intrigued by the quoted. At my office the cusper millenials are definitely the work horses and the ones who are having health issues.

I've wondered if it was surviving the Great Recession that created our work habits. Like we were old enough in 2008 that some of us had purchased homes, needed health insurance, had some traction with our student loans, and were definitely too old to move back in with our parents. We had essentially started "adulting" enough that the threat of losing that was pretty terrifying. I wonder if it was foundationally just really different for 27+ year olds compared to those just getting out of college?

Both my husband and I ended up making major career changes during the recession and the dread of having to do that again is a constant for me. Sometimes feels like the choice is to try to beat burn out in the career I have or switch fields or uproot again. The devil you know and all that.

Having to make a career change under negative pressure is a totally different creature than making a career change by choice in a place of financial security.

I'm sure 2008 has had an impact, but there's more to it than that. There's something about being raised by boomers that made people this way.

Whatever the cause, I do a fair amount of consulting and one of the common themes is that I have to teach people how to manage younger staff with solid boundaries. The Gen X managers especially get fucking apoplectic about their "entitlement".

I friggin' love them. There's nothing more tedious for me as an executive than trying to manage burnt-out staff. This ludicrous corporate valuing of people who sacrifice themselves is dumb and inefficient. Burnt-out staff are THE WORST. And I say that with experience of having been one myself.