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General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: kimmarg on December 29, 2018, 06:21:05 PM

Title: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kimmarg on December 29, 2018, 06:21:05 PM
Any US Federal Employees on here affected by the shutdown? My agency is unfunded but I'm essential/excepted/whatever-they-call-it-today and have to work anyways.  Wide range of attitudes in my office basically depending on savings. I truly feel bad for the brand new GS-07 who just payed to move cross country with a spouse and small kid and can't afford to miss a check. I'm eye-rolling at the GS-13 who've been around a while who don't seem to have enough savings to get through it.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: YttriumNitrate on December 29, 2018, 06:41:37 PM
I grew up in the DC area, and you could always tell how long someone had been a Fed based on how they reacted during the shutdowns. The newbies tend to worry about their jobs going away/getting paid while the old foggies were more concerned about finding a vacation spot close enough so that they could be back within the required ~5 hours when the shutdown ended.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 29, 2018, 07:02:52 PM
For my former coworkers, the lack of a paycheck during the furlough is less upsetting than getting ANOTHER zero percent pay raise for 2019.

But pretty soon, the complaints will shift to the lack of work getting done.  You can sit out a week or two over the holidays without ruining too much, but past January 3rd they'll start falling behind on actual project deadlines.  Reinstating federal funds eventually does not fix their existing contracts with cooperators and funding partners, all of which stipulate that a specific product will be delivered on a specific date regardless of whether or not Congress gets its act together.  If they're not allowed to work, they're all going to fail to fulfill their contracts on time.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kendallf on December 29, 2018, 07:43:13 PM
I'm a DOD civilian, and we're funded and working next week.  The shutdowns in general do not help my attitude, but I have savings and I'd be OK even if furloughed as we have been in the past.  As Sol says, I'm more pissed off by the big middle finger of 0% raise after a huge corporate tax cut.   My salary has declined in real terms (inflation adjusted dollars) over the past 10 years, especially as I am at the end of the "steps" within pay grade and the only raise I get is the annual increase (or not).
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: waffles on December 29, 2018, 08:13:20 PM
I am an essential employee too, and despite the furlough work is the same as usual (air traffic control). In fact work called me to solicit overtime today.

I will be fine...I'm planning on retiring in about six months, and I have FU money. I really feel for the newer hires/trainees though, as this is a HCOL area and they will have a harder time. We have just gotten our last paycheck for work through Dec.22, and will not be paid again until the furlough is over. The local credit union is offering some no/low interest loans for those who need it. I think it is no interest up to $5000 but I haven't really looked.

I haven't heard a lot of discussion about the furlough at work but I suspect the topic will be coming up more now.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 29, 2018, 08:14:32 PM
The newbies tend to worry about their jobs going away/getting paid while the old foggies were more concerned about finding a vacation spot close enough so that they could be back within the required ~5 hours when the shutdown ended.

Yeah, and they are happy to know they will almost certainly get backpay for this extra time off on the taxpayer dime.  What a sweet deal.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: remizidae on December 29, 2018, 08:16:48 PM
For my former coworkers, the lack of a paycheck during the furlough is less upsetting than getting ANOTHER zero percent pay raise for 2019.

Another? We got 2.1% in 2017 and 1.9% in 2018.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 29, 2018, 08:26:51 PM
Yeah, and they are happy to know they will almost certainly get backpay for this extra time off on the taxpayer dime.  What a sweet deal.

You think they're happy that they'll get paid late instead of on time?  Are they also happy that they don't get to do their jobs?

Remember that these are civil servants we're talking about.  They have literally devoted their entire careers to serving others, including you.  They do want to do their jobs.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wordnerd on December 29, 2018, 08:34:43 PM
For my former coworkers, the lack of a paycheck during the furlough is less upsetting than getting ANOTHER zero percent pay raise for 2019.

Another? We got 2.1% in 2017 and 1.9% in 2018.

There were a bunch of 0% years during the Obama Administration/Great Recession. I don't remember how many now. Over time, it adds up.

As a former fed, I went through two shutdowns...I got back pay both time and wasn't worried about paying bills, even if I didn't (most of my co-workers were the same--scientific agency where the median grade was a 12 or a 13), but it is pretty annoying. Everything has to be canceled and restarted. You can't make plans. We also had to cancel a bunch of travel/conferences for almost shutdowns, where funding came at the 11th hour, because you don't want people stranded in Omaha if Congress doesn't come through. It's an appalling way to run an organization.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: waffles on December 29, 2018, 08:50:12 PM
Thanks, Sol. I hate to see the trope of lazy overpaid underworked Federal employees show up here.  Granted I only see my personal workplace but the vast majority of my coworkers have excellent work ethics and truly earn their pay. It follows though that I can't even imagine actually being furloughed and maybe not getting paid.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 29, 2018, 08:50:43 PM
For my former coworkers, the lack of a paycheck during the furlough is less upsetting than getting ANOTHER zero percent pay raise for 2019.

Another? We got 2.1% in 2017 and 1.9% in 2018.

Are you TSA or something that's not on the general schedule?  Because the general schedule pay raise was 1.4% in 2018 and 1.0% in 2017.  Also only 1.0% for the three years before that, and 0.0% for the three years before that.  https://www.federalpay.org/gs/raises has details.

Kendallf is right, federal employees have been losing out to inflation since 2010.

edit:  nevermind, I figured it out:  you're military.  You're right, the military has been given decent pay raises consistently for decades now.  The civil service, not so much.  https://www.federalpay.org/military/raises
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on December 29, 2018, 09:19:13 PM
As a former fed, I went through two shutdowns...I got back pay both time and wasn't worried about paying bills, even if I didn't (most of my co-workers were the same--scientific agency where the median grade was a 12 or a 13), but it is pretty annoying. Everything has to be canceled and restarted. You can't make plans. We also had to cancel a bunch of travel/conferences for almost shutdowns, where funding came at the 11th hour, because you don't want people stranded in Omaha if Congress doesn't come through. It's an appalling way to run an organization.

After the '13 shutdown a non-trivial number people I know and respect made the jump from working directly for a federal agency I apply for funding from to working for some of the universities funded by the same agency. Even going from "guaranteed" federal funding to needing to survive off competitive grants the ones I'm still in touch with seem noticeably happier now.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wordnerd on December 29, 2018, 09:40:59 PM
As a former fed, I went through two shutdowns...I got back pay both time and wasn't worried about paying bills, even if I didn't (most of my co-workers were the same--scientific agency where the median grade was a 12 or a 13), but it is pretty annoying. Everything has to be canceled and restarted. You can't make plans. We also had to cancel a bunch of travel/conferences for almost shutdowns, where funding came at the 11th hour, because you don't want people stranded in Omaha if Congress doesn't come through. It's an appalling way to run an organization.

After the '13 shutdown a non-trivial number people I know and respect made the jump from working directly for a federal agency I apply for funding from to working for some of the universities funded by the same agency. Even going from "guaranteed" federal funding to needing to survive off competitive grants the ones I'm still in touch with seem noticeably happier now.
I can see that. If I go back to work, I would vastly prefer to be at the grantee-level, though I know it comes with a lot of challenges of its own.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Travis on December 29, 2018, 10:22:23 PM
The newbies tend to worry about their jobs going away/getting paid while the old foggies were more concerned about finding a vacation spot close enough so that they could be back within the required ~5 hours when the shutdown ended.

Yeah, and they are happy to know they will almost certainly get backpay for this extra time off on the taxpayer dime.  What a sweet deal.

This shutdown isn't affecting the DoD this time around, but a number of my civil service employees must come in to work regardless when it does.  Their complaint is that they're working for an IOU while the non-critical employees are getting a free day or more of leave.

That being said, none of them are happy that for the last few years the timeliness of their paychecks have been at the whim of a handful of whiny politicians who have nothing at stake during these shutdowns. 

I'm in a similar boat as Sol with regards to workload.  Where I work our productivity is quantifiable on a daily basis that has a long-term effect on national security.  If we're not at full strength, then a can gets kicked down the road that we have difficulty recovering from.  Since the DoD is exempt this time, my contractors will continue to work.  When they get included in our shutdowns, our work almost grinds to a halt.  Imagine if a farmer had to stop harvesting midday to drive his own crops to market because the truckers didn't show up. That's the effect on my organization during these shutdowns.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on December 30, 2018, 01:08:24 AM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: NykkiC on December 30, 2018, 03:38:48 AM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.

As a former Aussie public servant, I remain equally baffled - especially for the people who are told they still need to come in. I mean, work is getting paid to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. If I’m not getting paid*, then why would any employer think they could demand I work anyway? I certainly wouldn’t be, not unless they have a legal order conscripting me to work for free.

*here meaning a guaranteed payment in a timely manner and as per the conditions under which I accepted my job
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kimmarg on December 30, 2018, 04:10:34 AM
It's just a mess. Sometimes I have no idea why I'm working for 'free' (although I guess if they can get it together before the next paycheck cuts I technically won't be) I'm guessing the furloughed folks will get backpay and a free vacation but honestly that just makes the essential folks working through it even more annoyed. Tons of stuff is getting rearranged from conferences to meetings and projects.   Oh and there's no paid leave anymore for essential employees (and of course just a few people had plans over the holidays). Thankfully they were able to give us the choice between furlough for the days planned as vacation or coming back to work but it just rubs you the wrong way. The holiday schedule was set in September. If we can plan whos working months out can't congress plan how they're paying us?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Monkey Uncle on December 30, 2018, 04:14:13 AM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.

As a former Aussie public servant, I remain equally baffled - especially for the people who are told they still need to come in. I mean, work is getting paid to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. If I’m not getting paid*, then why would any employer think they could demand I work anyway? I certainly wouldn’t be, not unless they have a legal order conscripting me to work for free.

*here meaning a guaranteed payment in a timely manner and as per the conditions under which I accepted my job

US federal employees who don't show up to work when they are ordered to are considered AWOL, regardless of whether they are getting paid or not.  That's a punishable offense, and could lead to loss of their jobs.  They will get paid eventually, whenever Congress finally gets its act together and passes a budget.

I'm happy to be FIREd now and not have to deal with shutdown drama any more.  When I was a fed, the only lengthy shutdown that I experienced was the one in 2013.  I was deemed non-essential and was furloughed for the duration.  It was anxiety-inducing at the time, because you never know for sure if Congress is going to approve back pay.  I was not in danger of running out of money, but if I had lost that income, it would have put a dent in my savings for the year.  As it turned out, it became an extra two weeks of paid time off.  Which didn't benefit me any, because the shutdown occurred late enough in the year that I was not able to use all of the normal leave that I had saved during the shutdown, so I ended up donating a bunch of my leave.  Net effect, I was forced to take leave when Congress wanted me to take it instead of when I chose to take it.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 07:02:22 AM
Net effect, I was forced to take leave when Congress wanted me to take it instead of when I chose to take it.

I have a hard time thinking of it as leave anyway.  Is not like you can go anywhere.  You have to be ready to show up back at work on 24 hours of notice, so you can't leave town.  It's more like a forced staycation.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BTDretire on December 30, 2018, 07:30:31 AM
Yeah, and they are happy to know they will almost certainly get backpay for this extra time off on the taxpayer dime.  What a sweet deal.

You think they're happy that they'll get paid late instead of on time?  Are they also happy that they don't get to do their jobs?

Remember that these are civil servants we're talking about.  They have literally devoted their entire careers to serving others, including you.  They do want to do their jobs.
Yes, it is very stupid to say they can't work because there is no money, and then pay them for not working.
Sounds like government!
 The only effect on me so far is an internet radio station I listen to (Science 360) is shut down, as it is funded by the National Science Foundation. I would give up that and more to get a wall built.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 30, 2018, 07:30:51 AM
This is quoted from my journal, which pretty much sums up my tale of the shutdown. I'm active duty USCG.

From the New York Times. How're you doing, my Coast Guard internet friend?

I believe that the leaders of the American nation are worth less than a wet fart in a muppet sack. That their collective balls have crawled so far up their vital cavities even a good skinning knife would have a hard time rediscovering them. That they have willingly parted their coat tails for the sole purpose of exposing their entry point for a despot to meat puppet them.  And that if a single on of them gets on TV discussing the inconvenience and uncertainty currently being endured by my family, I will bar my teeth and latch onto their ball-free femoral artery until I can dance in the lake of their spreading gore and howl like I personally own the wild hunt.

Mattis was the only adult between insanity and the launch codes. The rest of them are jug eared, donkey dicked, sway back, knacker-assed, pissfucking, jizz suckers. Let's, for a simple change, bend THEM over the table until their sensibilities are dripping with the alpha load of cum they usually like to pump into their beta's, sorry, constituent's asses.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 08:09:52 AM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

Why do you want a wall?  Is it just as a symbol?

Because I don't see much other utility in a wall.  It doesn't keep people out. It doesn't discourage them from trying to come here.  It doesn't help catch and deport them.  It doesn't penalize the people who hire them.  It's a monumental waste of money that could instead be used to actually secure the border.

This is quoted from my journal, which pretty much sums up my tale of the shutdown. I'm active duty USCG.

I'm glad to see that the USCG is still teaching colorful profanity.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 08:19:08 AM
Yeah, and they are happy to know they will almost certainly get backpay for this extra time off on the taxpayer dime.  What a sweet deal.

You think they're happy that they'll get paid late instead of on time?  Are they also happy that they don't get to do their jobs?

Remember that these are civil servants we're talking about.  They have literally devoted their entire careers to serving others, including you.  They do want to do their jobs.

LOL.  PLLLEEAAASSEEE.....  Yeah, I can really tell from the ones I know that they are heartbroken for the extra paid-for vacation.  Give me a break.

Yes, it is very stupid to say they can't work because there is no money, and then pay them for not working.
Sounds like government!

Exactly!  That definitely wouldn't happen where I work in the private sector!   That's the government for you.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
As always in these shutdowns, DH is working from home (officially he isn't supposed to) so he doesn't fall behind on work.  And I just got an email notice in my inbox that could only have been generated by another furloughed fed we know, who is obviously doing the same.  Lazy, my ass.  And this 0% COL raise during a strong economy is even more insulting.

Had DH traveled to see friends or family during the holiday as part of taking official leave (vacation), the furlough would have reset his status so that the leave was null and void, and he would have had to race home so as to be at his duty station, where he would then officially be forbidden from working (though he would have ignored that, as always).

Good thing we didn't happen to be traveling this year over the holidays. Just consider how fucked up this situation is.  'MURICA!

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 08:25:13 AM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.

The liberal talking point is that the wall isn't the only solution and doesn't solve all of the problems.  It's not supposed to.  Those other things are also important as well, but they don't negate the necessity for the wall.  I would gladly pay more taxes to build the wall and increase border security, enforce existing immigration law, and stepping up efforts to deport illegals.  It sure beats the astronomical cost of illegal aliens over the long term who suck much more out of the system than they even begin to contribute (as shown by the Heritage study.)

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on December 30, 2018, 08:25:18 AM
This is quoted from my journal, which pretty much sums up my tale of the shutdown. I'm active duty USCG.

From the New York Times. How're you doing, my Coast Guard internet friend?

I believe that the leaders of the American nation are worth less than a wet fart in a muppet sack. That their collective balls have crawled so far up their vital cavities even a good skinning knife would have a hard time rediscovering them. That they have willingly parted their coat tails for the sole purpose of exposing their entry point for a despot to meat puppet them.  And that if a single on of them gets on TV discussing the inconvenience and uncertainty currently being endured by my family, I will bar my teeth and latch onto their ball-free femoral artery until I can dance in the lake of their spreading gore and howl like I personally own the wild hunt.

Mattis was the only adult between insanity and the launch codes. The rest of them are jug eared, donkey dicked, sway back, knacker-assed, pissfucking, jizz suckers. Let's, for a simple change, bend THEM over the table until their sensibilities are dripping with the alpha load of cum they usually like to pump into their beta's, sorry, constituent's asses.

That is so beautiful. :wipes tear:
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 08:34:17 AM
There were a bunch of 0% years during the Obama Administration/Great Recession. I don't remember how many now. Over time, it adds up.

Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

Being ex-military myself,  it's good to see the military will get an increase this year.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 30, 2018, 08:39:02 AM
There were a bunch of 0% years during the Obama Administration/Great Recession. I don't remember how many now. Over time, it adds up.

Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

Being ex-military myself,  it's good to see the military will get an increase this year.

Remember, everyone. DreamFIRE is essentially a toddler having a tantrum. Rationality and compassion have flown, and the only emotional resource he has left is to lay on the ground and scream. Best not to engage.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 08:41:43 AM
If I go back to work, I would vastly prefer to be at the grantee-level, though I know it comes with a lot of challenges of its own.

I have worked as all of the above.  As a graduate student I was funded by a competitive NSF grant.  Then I went to work for a federal science agency in a "soft money" position in which I had to find the funding to support myself and my team.  Then I was a hard-funded scientists with a direct congressional allocation.

I thought that the move to being hard-funded would be an improvement, but I was sorely mistaken.  Scientists with directly allocated funding still compete for funds, they just compete in a different environment, against other hard-funded scientist who are also after a slice of that finite pie.  Soft money scientists have far more freedom to receive funding from a wider variety of sources, and thus have much more control over what they do and how they do it.  They're not required to fit into an existing federal funding pipeline, with an overly specific mandate, that already feeds a tank full of other hungry sharks.  The amount of politics and bickering and backstabbing and power struggles that I had to endure as a hard-funded scientist absolutely blew me away, and after about three years I gave it up to go back to finding my own funding. 

I never had trouble finding money to do the work I wanted to do, because the work I wanted to do was work that I felt was useful and helpful to people, which coincidentally also meant there were lots of people willing to pay for it.  I had more money, more autonomy, more people working for me, and more publications as a self-funded competitive scientist than I ever had in my hard money position.  I got to write one proposal to fund up to four years of work at a time, instead of enduring an annual budget allocation deathmatch against an ever-changing roster of opponents who would try to discredit my work to make their own look better. 

One difference that I did notice in my time as a fed was that the hard-funded scientists were much more likely to work through shutdowns or appropriations lapses, in direct violation of their directives.  They were typically people for whom the work was its own reward, and they recognized that the competitive nature of their funding environment didn't allow any time off, because they would fall behind their peers who continued to work.  They didn't take vacations, either.  Raging assholes, in my experience.  Science is supposed to be a cooperative endeavor to advance our collective knowledge, not a cutthroat conflict between practitioners.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 08:43:42 AM
There were a bunch of 0% years during the Obama Administration/Great Recession. I don't remember how many now. Over time, it adds up.

Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

Being ex-military myself,  it's good to see the military will get an increase this year.

Remember, everyone. DreamFIRE is essentially a toddler having a tantrum. Rationality and compassion have flown, and the only emotional resource he has left is to lay on the ground and scream. Best not to engage.

@Sailor Sam  Troll lately?  No need to answer.  LOL
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 08:50:44 AM
I can really tell from the ones I know that they are heartbroken for the extra paid-for vacation.  Give me a break.

It's not extra vacation for the ~40% of federal civilian employees who take use-or-lose annual leave over the christmas holiday season.  Those people were going to be on vacation anyway, and they don't get their time back.  The only difference for them is that they'll have their paychecks delayed.

Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

I'm sure you're aware that federal pensions have already been cut twice in recent years, both increasing the employee contribution and cutting the employee benefit. 

Remember, everyone. DreamFIRE is essentially a toddler having a tantrum. Rationality and compassion have flown, and the only emotional resource he has left is to lay on the ground and scream. Best not to engage.

DreamFIRE used to be a rational and helpful forum member, who constructively engaged in a variety of topics.  I'm not entirely sure what's happened, but the new version is significantly less human.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wordnerd on December 30, 2018, 08:54:44 AM
There were a bunch of 0% years during the Obama Administration/Great Recession. I don't remember how many now. Over time, it adds up.

Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

Being ex-military myself,  it's good to see the military will get an increase this year.

Remember, everyone. DreamFIRE is essentially a toddler having a tantrum. Rationality and compassion have flown, and the only emotional resource he has left is to lay on the ground and scream. Best not to engage.
Good reminder. I deleted what I had written. It's kinda of astonishing to me that any US citizen, much less a former member of the military, would want the government to be in the business of reneging on its promises.
ETA: I read it as him want to cut funding for current retirees. If he means future retirees, that's already happened, as sol mentions.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 30, 2018, 09:02:08 AM
Any US Federal Employees on here affected by the shutdown? My agency is unfunded but I'm essential/excepted/whatever-they-call-it-today and have to work anyways.  Wide range of attitudes in my office basically depending on savings. I truly feel bad for the brand new GS-07 who just payed to move cross country with a spouse and small kid and can't afford to miss a check. I'm eye-rolling at the GS-13 who've been around a while who don't seem to have enough savings to get through it.

Do we work for the same agency?

I'm also in the guess what go into work category of whatever they call it.  I'm annoyed.  If it goes into missing a paycheck I'll need to cancel automatic transfers from checking into savings/investments and what not.  No one in my immediate office will be hurt by a moderately long shutdown.  Well except for maybe the guy who is eligible to retire and does stupid things with his money.

ETA:  The building I work out of is mostly exempt employees, we all have decidedly happy faces as we pass each other in the halls.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wordnerd on December 30, 2018, 09:06:40 AM
If I go back to work, I would vastly prefer to be at the grantee-level, though I know it comes with a lot of challenges of its own.

I have worked as all of the above.  As a graduate student I was funded by a competitive NSF grant.  Then I went to work for a federal science agency in a "soft money" position in which I had to find the funding to support myself and my team.  Then I was a hard-funded scientists with a direct congressional allocation.

I thought that the move to being hard-funded would be an improvement, but I was sorely mistaken.  Scientists with directly allocated funding still compete for funds, they just compete in a different environment, against other hard-funded scientist who are also after a slice of that finite pie.  Soft money scientists have far more freedom to receive funding from a wider variety of sources, and thus have much more control over what they do and how they do it.  They're not required to fit into an existing federal funding pipeline, with an overly specific mandate, that already feeds a tank full of other hungry sharks.  The amount of politics and bickering and backstabbing and power struggles that I had to endure as a hard-funded scientist absolutely blew me away, and after about three years I gave it up to go back to finding my own funding. 

I never had trouble finding money to do the work I wanted to do, because the work I wanted to do was work that I felt was useful and helpful to people, which coincidentally also meant there were lots of people willing to pay for it.  I had more money, more autonomy, more people working for me, and more publications as a self-funded competitive scientist than I ever had in my hard money position.  I got to write one proposal to fund up to four years of work at a time, instead of enduring an annual budget allocation deathmatch against an ever-changing roster of opponents who would try to discredit my work to make their own look better. 

One difference that I did notice in my time as a fed was that the hard-funded scientists were much more likely to work through shutdowns or appropriations lapses, in direct violation of their directives.  They were typically people for whom the work was its own reward, and they recognized that the competitive nature of their funding environment didn't allow any time off, because they would fall behind their peers who continued to work.  They didn't take vacations, either.  Raging assholes, in my experience.  Science is supposed to be a cooperative endeavor to advance our collective knowledge, not a cutthroat conflict between practitioners.

This aligns with experience with hard-funded scientists as well. My sub-unit at the agency had a convoluted annual review process where scientists had to compete for funding for the next year by Congress line item (of which we had a ton, so less flexibility in what could be funded), and, my lord, you could cut the tension in the room.

Then, there's the fun times when Congressional offices call and ask what their money is being spent on and why they don't have results yet. And, you have to explain how science works, and they basically say they don't care because they need some "success story" to crow about. The joys of federal employment.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BTDretire on December 30, 2018, 09:27:37 AM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

Why do you want a wall?  Is it just as a symbol?
We can start with it as a symbol, it says we are serious enough about you coming in legally that we put up a wall so you can't come in Illegally.
 I'm not sure why you think a wall won't stop a large percentage of those trying to enter illegally. There is evidence that the wall in Israel (Gaza) was had a significant effect on illegal entry. Why do rich people build walls around their homes? No need to answer, bcause it keeps people out.
 I may do it different though, I'd have a 40ft chainlink fence, 100ft of razor wire, then another 40ft wall. Then I would have an area where tunnel searches could be made on a regular basis.
 

Because I don't see much other utility in a wall.  It doesn't keep people out. It doesn't discourage them from trying to come here.  It doesn't help catch and deport them.  It doesn't penalize the people who hire them.[/quote]
 I'm all for penalizing people that hire illegals.
Quote
  It's a monumental waste of money that could instead be used to actually secure the border.
Quote
We just disagree.

This is quoted from my journal, which pretty much sums up my tale of the shutdown. I'm active duty USCG.

I'm glad to see that the USCG is still teaching colorful profanity.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 09:48:51 AM
Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

I'm sure you're aware that federal pensions have already been cut twice in recent years, both increasing the employee contribution and cutting the employee benefit. 

That's why I specifically said "existing" retirees in my comment and also stated "generous".

ETA: I read it as him want to cut funding for current retirees. If he means future retirees, that's already happened, as sol mentions.

My comment specifically said "existing" retirees, so I'm not sure why you would say "if he means future retirees".
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 09:56:40 AM
I can really tell from the ones I know that they are heartbroken for the extra paid-for vacation.  Give me a break.

It's not extra vacation for the ~40% of federal civilian employees who take use-or-lose annual leave over the christmas holiday season.  Those people were going to be on vacation anyway, and they don't get their time back.  The only difference for them is that they'll have their paychecks delayed.

There are always some exceptions, such as for the people that still have to work and the government contractors affected.  But I know some federal workers that are getting extra time off and will be paid later.  Since they aren't living paycheck to paycheck, the delay in pay isn't a big deal.  And I'm not suggesting anyone using their benefit time for part of the shutdown period shouldn't receive pay for those days they were actually using benefit time (not for the full shutdown if it runs for weeks, though).
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 09:58:42 AM
I was in the Coast Guard and went thru a few short term shutdowns and had to continue working with no pay. It was a PITA but pay was retroactive...eventually.

Yep, you continued to work, so there's no question that you should have been paid during the shutdown, even if retroactive.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wordnerd on December 30, 2018, 10:10:22 AM
I was in the Coast Guard and went thru a few short term shutdowns and had to continue working with no pay. It was a PITA but pay was retroactive...eventually.

Yep, you continued to work, so there's no question that you should have been paid during the shutdown, even if retroactive.
But that's not the law. The law in question is the Anti-deficiencies Act, which states that no obligations for payment can be made during a lapse in appropriations. That includes for paying essential employees. Now Congress has always retroactively paid essential employees, but it's not guaranteed because the government can't make that obligation during a shutdown.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Khaetra on December 30, 2018, 10:16:37 AM

I'm all for penalizing people that hire illegals.

Good.  We can start with this guy:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fbi-new-jersey-investigators-gather-employment-documents-of-immigrants-without-legal-status-who-allegedly-worked-at-trump-golf-course-lawyer-says/2018/12/29/58125620-0ba6-11e9-a3f0-71c95106d96a_story.html?utm_term=.2dc5c4015262
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 30, 2018, 11:09:48 AM
Speaking of retiree's.  I have several former officemates who are suppose to retire tomorrow.  I wonder how that works in a shutdown.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 30, 2018, 11:13:06 AM
Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

I'm sure you're aware that federal pensions have already been cut twice in recent years, both increasing the employee contribution and cutting the employee benefit. 

That's why I specifically said "existing" retirees in my comment and also stated "generous".

ETA: I read it as him want to cut funding for current retirees. If he means future retirees, that's already happened, as sol mentions.

My comment specifically said "existing" retirees, so I'm not sure why you would say "if he means future retirees".

Exactly what existing retiree's?  Just curious who you have your beef with and why?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DeniseNJ on December 30, 2018, 12:03:48 PM
The news tends to put it as the millions billions dollars the shut down is costing. Remember that salaries were going to be paid so it's not extra money being tossed away. And the work doesn't disappear when someone is not at work, they just have to catch up when we reopen. Calls that don't come in during a shutdown will flood in after. Letters that didn't get answered will still have to be when we reopen. Work you aren't there to do will sit until you come back in and catch up. If the place is shut down nobody is there to cover for you so you will be working hard to catch up. Getting paid for your so called time off retroactively seems appropriate. My agency was funded for the year during the last CR so we're open this time. But being furloughed is not at all like having paid time off.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Turkey Leg on December 30, 2018, 12:44:33 PM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.


Most Americans did NOT vote for Trump. He won via the electoral college.

A HUGE point of his campaign was Mexico was going to pay for the wall. So I'm unclear why there is a need to fund it using American taxpayer money. Perhaps you know why?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 30, 2018, 12:52:31 PM
I'm not sure why you think a wall won't stop a large percentage of those trying to enter illegally.

Because that's not how the vast majority of people enter the country illegally.  Most overstay their Visa. 

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/05/22/dhs-releases-fiscal-year-2016-entryexit-overstay-report
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/17_0914_estimates-of-border-security.pdf

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Pizzabrewer on December 30, 2018, 01:11:19 PM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.


And it was just as big a part of his campaign that Mexico would pay for it. Why is that now glossed over?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 01:27:46 PM
Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

If you want to get all technical about it, more people voted against Trump than voted for him. 

This is the third time I have given you this exact same response to this exact same claim, and yet you still continue to repeat it.  Am I not getting through to you?

In other shutdown news, I had a national park vacation schedule for this week.  I expected all of the visitor centers and bathrooms to be closed, but all of the parks I've been to have actually been locked, like at the gate.
Yesterday at Guadalupe, the entrance gate was barred and there about a hundred cars parked along the side of the highway with families running across multiple lanes during breaks in the traffic.  This is NOT SAFE.  Why don't they just leave the gate open and let people use the nice turn lane, and then park in the huge parking lot a hundred yards away, where no one is going to get mowed down?  There are still nature trails and such you can access without needing the visitor center to be open.  By all means lock the buildings, but don't lock the gates to a park that I own.

I'm waiting for the national news to cover the first traffic fatality at a "closed" national park that decided to block safe access and put kids at risk of being mowed down by speeding cars.  This is stupid. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 30, 2018, 01:32:04 PM
For my former coworkers, the lack of a paycheck during the furlough is less upsetting than getting ANOTHER zero percent pay raise for 2019.

I think Texas is on our 8th year of 0% pay raise - I'm not counting the 2% "raise" that matched the 2% increased (mandatory) employee pension contribution. The pension being underfunded is entirely the fault of the Legislature chronically underpaying their share for decades.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 01:36:59 PM
Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

I'm sure you're aware that federal pensions have already been cut twice in recent years, both increasing the employee contribution and cutting the employee benefit. 

That's why I specifically said "existing" retirees in my comment and also stated "generous".

ETA: I read it as him want to cut funding for current retirees. If he means future retirees, that's already happened, as sol mentions.

My comment specifically said "existing" retirees, so I'm not sure why you would say "if he means future retirees".

Exactly what existing retiree's?  Just curious who you have your beef with and why?

I thought my post was pretty clear, not sure why multiple people have difficulty with it.  I said existing retirees and generous government pensions.  What is so difficult to understand?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 30, 2018, 01:38:35 PM
Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.
The wall is worthless. Most "illegal immigrants" entered at a checkpoint on a visa, then never left.

It's a distraction.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 30, 2018, 01:39:30 PM
There were a bunch of 0% years during the Obama Administration/Great Recession. I don't remember how many now. Over time, it adds up.

Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

Being ex-military myself,  it's good to see the military will get an increase this year.

Cool, you've turned down all government benefits like Tricare, military pension, social security, Medicare, right?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 01:40:46 PM
Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

If you want to get all technical about it, more people voted against Trump than voted for him. 

This is the third time I have given you this exact same response to this exact same claim, and yet you still continue to repeat it.  Am I not getting through to you?

Sol, I thought you were an American and knew how things worked in this country.  Aren't you familiar with the electoral college?  Remember, elections have consequences.

Also, I didn't see your other responses or would have said this to you previously.  But hopefully this helps you understand the point I'm making.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 01:43:36 PM
For my former coworkers, the lack of a paycheck during the furlough is less upsetting than getting ANOTHER zero percent pay raise for 2019.

I think Texas is on our 8th year of 0% pay raise - I'm not counting the 2% "raise" that matched the 2% increased (mandatory) employee pension contribution. The pension being underfunded is entirely the fault of the Legislature chronically underpaying their share for decades.

Don't feel bad.  My state drastically over-promised on pensions also, so the state is in massive debt because of it.  The rest of we working taxpayers are now paying for it with a couple large tax increases in recent years rather than cutting the over-promised pensions.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 01:48:02 PM
Sol, I thought you were an American and knew how things worked in this country.  Aren't you familiar with the electoral college?

Then by all means, feel free to repeat ad nauseam that the electoral college voted for Trump, but you should probably stop saying that Americans voted for him.  Most of us did not.  Millions more Americans voted against him than for him.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 01:48:22 PM
Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.
The wall is worthless. Most "illegal immigrants" entered at a checkpoint on a visa, then never left.

It's a distraction.

The people who understand the situation know we need a wall.  As the head of border security stated, no one can tell you with a straight face that we don't need a wall.  I think he knows better than you.  LOL

Like I said, it's peanuts compared to the cost of illegal immigration, and it's not meant to be the ONLY solution, yet it is an important one.

Cool, you've turned down all government benefits like Tricare, military pension, social security, Medicare, right?

I don't receive and never have received any of those, although that has nothing to do with me supporting a pay increase for the military.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 01:54:02 PM
Sol, I thought you were an American and knew how things worked in this country.  Aren't you familiar with the electoral college?

Then by all means, feel free to repeat ad nauseam that the electoral college voted for Trump, but you should probably stop saying that Americans voted for him.  Most of us did not.  Millions more Americans voted against him than for him.

That's the rules of the game.  And that's all that really matters, even though you don't like to hear it.  I'm an independent, so I'm not closely walking a party line as so many of you do, but immigration happens to be one of the few thing I agree with Trump on for the most part, not necessarily 100%, but at least he's stronger on border security and immigration than what your dear Hillary would have been.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on December 30, 2018, 01:54:54 PM
Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

I'm sure you're aware that federal pensions have already been cut twice in recent years, both increasing the employee contribution and cutting the employee benefit. 

That's why I specifically said "existing" retirees in my comment and also stated "generous".

ETA: I read it as him want to cut funding for current retirees. If he means future retirees, that's already happened, as sol mentions.

My comment specifically said "existing" retirees, so I'm not sure why you would say "if he means future retirees".

Exactly what existing retiree's?  Just curious who you have your beef with and why?

I thought my post was pretty clear, not sure why multiple people have difficulty with it.  I said existing retirees and generous government pensions.  What is so difficult to understand?

I guess my question is what do you define as generous government pensions?  I'm trying to figure out what your definition of that is.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 01:58:21 PM
So if Trump is really serious about refusing to sign any budget that doesn't include five billion dollars of American taxpayer money for a useless border wall, instead of any sort of effective border security, how will the shut down get resolved?

There's always room for compromise, right?  Can Schumer offer him the $5b in exchange for a DACA fix and an inflation-matching pay increase for federal employees and releasing his tax returns?

Let's not forget that Trump already turned down $25billion for a border wall and a DACA fix, when his party had full control of congress.  In retrospect, I suspect that the optics of a fully republican-controlled congress being unable to pass a budget was the only thing keeping Trump from shutting down the government last year too.  I suspect that as soon as he had Democrats coming into power that he could try to cast as the villains in this conflict, he suddenly felt freed to be a lot more obstructionist about the regular business of government.  Of course, the current shutdown also happened in a fully republican-controlled congress, but if it drags on long enough I'm sure he will try to blame the incoming democratic majority for the problems the former republican majority created.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: MrBojangles on December 30, 2018, 02:00:14 PM
I would argue that government pensions are not generous.  Just better than that available in private industry as this has been cut left and right .  401k was the worst thing that ever happened.  Placed retirement as the responsibility of the employee instead of the company.  Fortunately, the government was not so quick to change.  I think that will eventually change, but I'll likely be grandfathered in.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on December 30, 2018, 02:04:09 PM
Cool, you've turned down all government benefits like Tricare, military pension, social security, Medicare, right?

I don't receive and never have received any of those, although that has nothing to do with me supporting a pay increase for the military.

You missed one of the tenses. "I have not received, do not receive and will not receive." Two out of three isn't going to impress anyone.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 02:11:35 PM
That's the rules of the game.  And that's all that really matters, even though you don't like to hear it.

I know the rules and I agree Trump is the duly elected President.  I don't mind hearing that.

I DO mind hearing what you said, which is that American voted for him.  Americans are people, and they did not vote for him.  Most of them voted for someone else, by a wide margin, and yet you have repeatedly claimed that Americans voted for him.  They did not.  The electoral college, representing a rural minority of the country, voted for him.

You should stop lying about this.  It's kind of pissing me off, because it suggests that most Americans are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes who thought electing a lifelong con man from Queens with no public service experience and a history of fraud to lead our country would be a good idea.  Most of us are not, and did not.  You can stop claiming otherwise any time now.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 30, 2018, 02:15:22 PM
Cool, you've turned down all government benefits like Tricare, military pension, social security, Medicare, right?

I don't receive and never have received any of those, although that has nothing to do with me supporting a pay increase for the military.

And you are never going to accept any of them, right?

Poor misdirect, btw. It was obviously in reference to your promoting breaking promises and contracts to retired Fed workers in order to screw them over on their pension.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 30, 2018, 02:17:41 PM
The wall is worthless. Most "illegal immigrants" entered at a checkpoint on a visa, then never left.

It's a distraction.

The people who understand the situation know we need a wall.  As the head of border security stated, no one can tell you with a straight face that we don't need a wall.  I think he knows better than you.  LOL

Like I said, it's peanuts compared to the cost of illegal immigration, and it's not meant to be the ONLY solution, yet it is an important one.


LOL, the only "authority" you can cite is the guy mandated to do so by his boss. 

Let me prove him wrong. We don't need Trump's wall. My face is straight.

So, your only cite is a proven liar.

Poor showing, old chap.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: ROF Expat on December 30, 2018, 03:19:51 PM
Yeah, instead of giving no pay increases for existing workers, I would like to see something done to cut those generous government pensions for existing retirees paid for on the taxpayer dime.

I'm sure you're aware that federal pensions have already been cut twice in recent years, both increasing the employee contribution and cutting the employee benefit. 

That's why I specifically said "existing" retirees in my comment and also stated "generous".

ETA: I read it as him want to cut funding for current retirees. If he means future retirees, that's already happened, as sol mentions.

My comment specifically said "existing" retirees, so I'm not sure why you would say "if he means future retirees".

Exactly what existing retiree's?  Just curious who you have your beef with and why?

I thought my post was pretty clear, not sure why multiple people have difficulty with it.  I said existing retirees and generous government pensions.  What is so difficult to understand?

I think your post was very clear, but some people had difficulty believing you actually meant what you said.  I think they found it easier to believe that you misspoke than that you were advocating for the US Government to repudiate its formal agreements with federal retirees. 

For some Americans, the belief that the United States of America will live up to its formal obligations and follow the rule of law is a foundation of government and society.  Some Americans would assert that it is what makes our fiat currency the world's reserve currency and our full faith and credit bonds worth having despite our already high level of debt.  Some economists might point out that any doubts about the US Government's willingness to meet its obligations would translate into countries demanding higher interest rates to buy our government debt, making an already difficult budget situation far worse.  Clearly, not everyone believes these things. 


Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BTDretire on December 30, 2018, 04:52:02 PM
Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.
The wall is worthless. Most "illegal immigrants" entered at a checkpoint on a visa, then never left.

It's a distraction.

The people who understand the situation know we need a wall.  As the head of border security stated, no one can tell you with a straight face that we don't need a wall.  I think he knows better than you.  LOL

Like I said, it's peanuts compared to the cost of illegal immigration, and it's not meant to be the ONLY solution, yet it is an important one.
I think Rep.  Chuck Schumer has it  about right,
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1078496926058700800
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BTDretire on December 30, 2018, 05:03:49 PM
I would argue that government pensions are not generous.  Just better than that available in private industry as this has been cut left and right .  401k was the worst thing that ever happened.  Placed retirement as the responsibility of the employee instead of the company.  Fortunately, the government was not so quick to change.  I think that will eventually change, but I'll likely be grandfathered in.

This was 7 years ago, but I suspect things haven't changed much.
http://www.aei.org/publication/how-generous-are-federal-employee-pensions/
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 05:12:26 PM
I would argue that government pensions are not generous.  Just better than that available in private industry as this has been cut left and right .

You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 05:14:36 PM
Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.
The wall is worthless. Most "illegal immigrants" entered at a checkpoint on a visa, then never left.

It's a distraction.

The people who understand the situation know we need a wall.  As the head of border security stated, no one can tell you with a straight face that we don't need a wall.  I think he knows better than you.  LOL

Like I said, it's peanuts compared to the cost of illegal immigration, and it's not meant to be the ONLY solution, yet it is an important one.
I think Rep.  Chuck Schumer has it  about right,
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1078496926058700800

Ole Chucky actually had it right back then.  Here's some video as well straight from Chucky's mouth.  Now, the dems should fall in line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlfOPvUABnw
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Michael in ABQ on December 30, 2018, 05:34:46 PM
I would argue that government pensions are not generous.  Just better than that available in private industry as this has been cut left and right .  401k was the worst thing that ever happened.  Placed retirement as the responsibility of the employee instead of the company.  Fortunately, the government was not so quick to change.  I think that will eventually change, but I'll likely be grandfathered in.

This was 7 years ago, but I suspect things haven't changed much.
http://www.aei.org/publication/how-generous-are-federal-employee-pensions/

Actually they have.

I started as a DoD civilian earlier this year so 4.4% of my paycheck is set aside for my pension (FERS). The basics are you get 1.1% for every year worked. So if I were to work 30 years I would get 33% of my final pay. Under the old system they only took 0.85%. So frankly it's a terrible deal now and even if I were to end up working as a fed for a while I will definitely be taking my contributions as a lump sum rather than a pension. I can do a whole lot better sticking that money in VTSAX than letting the government invest it in T-Bills.

The plus side is a 5% 401k match. That I'm taking full advantage of. But the pension portion is not a good deal now. The change only occurred in the last few years so the vast majority of federal employees are grandfathered in to pay less than 1% out of their paycheck.

My military pension through the National Guard, even though I can't collect until I'm 60 works out pretty well. I figure it will be around $15k a year which isn't bad for what has mostly been part-time work. I get 2% for every year of equivalent active duty, so by the time I retire it might only be the equivalent of 6-7 years eve if I spend 30 years in uniform. Had I stuck with the old system (no 401k match) it would be a 2.5% multiplier.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on December 30, 2018, 05:54:28 PM
I would argue that government pensions are not generous.  Just better than that available in private industry as this has been cut left and right .  401k was the worst thing that ever happened.  Placed retirement as the responsibility of the employee instead of the company.  Fortunately, the government was not so quick to change.  I think that will eventually change, but I'll likely be grandfathered in.

This was 7 years ago, but I suspect things haven't changed much.
http://www.aei.org/publication/how-generous-are-federal-employee-pensions/

Actually they have.  <snip>

The change only occurred in the last few years so the vast majority of federal employees are grandfathered in to pay less than 1% out of their paycheck.

So they've changed, except they didn't change for the vast majority as you stated, including the "existing" retirees that I specifically referred to.  There-in lies the problem.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 06:48:35 PM
This was 7 years ago, but I suspect things haven't changed much.
http://www.aei.org/publication/how-generous-are-federal-employee-pensions/

The fact that you seem to be complete unaware of all of the federal pension reforms since then leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.  I'm not really listening to you anymore, if you can't even be bothered to do 30 seconds of basic internet research before making a fool of yourself.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 30, 2018, 06:56:46 PM
You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.

I'm sure you're aware that private industry gets government bailout money, and government pensions do not?  When the federal pension program needs funds, it sells bonds.  Your taxes do not support federal pensions.

By the reasoning you appear to be espousing, private industry shouldn't be getting bailout money, right?  Like the $17billion that GM got, largely for pensions?  Or the $85billion for AIG?  Because those are literally your tax dollars being spent to bail out the gross mismanagement of private for-profit corporations.  Unlike the federal pension system.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: MrBojangles on December 30, 2018, 07:00:42 PM
One HUGE thing that folks fail to realize when it comes to Federal employees vs the private sector is that most Federal employees have advanced degrees, whereas the private sector encompasses part time employees at Wendy's or Wal-Mart.  It is comparing apples to oranges.  If the comparison was a comparison of private sector employees vs Federal employees, both with advanced degrees, it would be readily apparent the ridiculous wages paid to Federal employees.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 30, 2018, 07:07:49 PM
I would argue that government pensions are not generous.  Just better than that available in private industry as this has been cut left and right .  401k was the worst thing that ever happened.  Placed retirement as the responsibility of the employee instead of the company.  Fortunately, the government was not so quick to change.  I think that will eventually change, but I'll likely be grandfathered in.

This was 7 years ago, but I suspect things haven't changed much.
http://www.aei.org/publication/how-generous-are-federal-employee-pensions/

The commentary on the article tears the methodology apart pretty darn effectively. Mr. Biggs does a lot of hand waving sandbagging and just making up numbers. He also only uses the "entire very long career with the Feds" as an example - workers who are there a shorter time (or retire before 62 without 30+ years of service) see a significant penalty, if they get a FERS pension at all. Et cetera.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kimmarg on December 30, 2018, 07:32:59 PM
This was 7 years ago, but I suspect things haven't changed much.
http://www.aei.org/publication/how-generous-are-federal-employee-pensions/

The fact that you seem to be complete unaware of all of the federal pension reforms since then leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are talking about.  I'm not really listening to you anymore, if you can't even be bothered to do 30 seconds of basic internet research before making a fool of yourself.

yes what sol said. First of all make sure you understand what current Federal pensions ARE. The last remaining CSRS person at my office is supposed to retire tomorrow (not sure how that works since the folks who do that paperwork are furloughed). This is the old system, discontinued decades ago which has the stereotypical generous pension.  I have a TSP which is like a 401k. Because I read this forum I contribute the max.   At any rate, yes gov has good pensions and benefits thats one of the reasons I signed on the dotted line to work there. Of course I also work rotating 24 hour shift so it's not all upsides. In my field the gov is the largest employer and probably the most desirable. We easily have 250+ new grads for any entry level opening. So yea, gov is best benfits and you get your pick of the best people. Congradulations tax payer, you're getting the best working for you.  I guess you could offer us shitty benefits and get crappy people but is that what you want for public safety?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BlueHouse on December 30, 2018, 07:53:39 PM
I'm currently funded a few months in advance, so this one won't hurt me directly unless it extends into February, but the last furlough affected my entire program, and we had to replan the entire program due to a series of short delays in starting the program.  It took over 25 man-months to reschedule and re-budget the program to still fit within the constraints.   It is NOT a matter of just shifting everything a few weeks.  That's $0.5Million just to replan.  It doesn't count all the people waiting to hear what they can and cannot do under the new program.  It's an extremely inefficient way to do business.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on December 30, 2018, 11:06:07 PM
Regarding pensions.  Please correct me if I am wrong but our congress has a very generous pension.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/080416/how-congress-retirement-pay-compares-overall-average.asp

Quote
In 2016, Congressional pay was $174,000 per year, which, at an 80% rate, equates to a lifelong pension benefit of $139,200. All benefits are taxpayer-funded.

1 term and you get pension for life.  Not to shabby.


I also find it disturbing how the left has to rely on insults when discussing anything they don't agree with.  One particular comment really struck out at me regarding people who voted for Trump.

Quote
.... suggests that most Americans are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes who thought electing a lifelong con man from Queens with no public service experience and a history of fraud to lead our country would be a good idea. . .

https://www.270towin.com/2016_Election/
62,980,160 Voted for Trump
65,845,063 Voted For Hillary
and about 6 million voted for other candidates.

To say that over 45% of the voting population is " ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes" sounds great in an echo chamber but instead stifles any discussion.  BTW, based on the numbers above, I guess over half of the people voted against Hillary.  Interesting.

It is unfortunate that the far left throws out comments like racist and ignorant far too often when having a discussion with anyone that disagrees with them.  Instead of using convincing arguments that help sway a person's views ad hominem attacks are flung and no one benefits.  And BTW, far left is not always the best and maybe far left has a bit to learn from those with different view points.

Disclaimer: I am not a republican.  I have never been a republican.  I have learned to add such a disclaimer on this forum so as to avoid insults being flung my way.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Khaetra on December 31, 2018, 06:43:23 AM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.

The liberal talking point is that the wall isn't the only solution and doesn't solve all of the problems.  It's not supposed to.  Those other things are also important as well, but they don't negate the necessity for the wall.  I would gladly pay more taxes to build the wall and increase border security, enforce existing immigration law, and stepping up efforts to deport illegals.  It sure beats the astronomical cost of illegal aliens over the long term who suck much more out of the system than they even begin to contribute (as shown by the Heritage study.)

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

Mexico will pay for the wall
Mexico will pay for the wall
Mexico will pay for the wall
Rinse and Repeat

That's all I heard during the campaign.  I do not want one cent of my tax dollars going for a stupid f*cking wall that WE DON'T NEED!  If that stupid f*cking tangerine sh*tdemon sitting in the WH wants it so badly then he needs to live up to his promise and make Mexico, not us, pay for it. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on December 31, 2018, 07:46:20 AM
Regarding pensions.  Please correct me if I am wrong but our congress has a very generous pension.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/080416/how-congress-retirement-pay-compares-overall-average.asp

Quote
In 2016, Congressional pay was $174,000 per year, which, at an 80% rate, equates to a lifelong pension benefit of $139,200. All benefits are taxpayer-funded.

1 term and you get pension for life.  Not to shabby.



:sigh:

I'm no particular defender of Congress and I love to hate on congresspeople as much as the next Righteously Indignant Citizen, but what you wrote is highly misleading, esp if you are implying that it is typical for 1) a MoC to receive a 139K/year pension; 2) that they receive this type of pension even if they serve one term. That is completely inaccurate, not to mention mathematically impossible (b/c the pension is based on years worked).

Congress has fairly similar pensions to those of civilian feds (who receive 1.1% x average of their 3 high salary), but they have a more generous multiplier (1.7% for the first 20 years of service).  The exceptions are those super-oldsters who were elected under the long-defunct and much more generous former system (discontinued in the early 1980s, but it continues to strangely obsess people, even if they were born after it was changed).

Also, while a senator would be vested in their pension after 1 term, a house member would have to serve the equivalent of 3 terms to meet the 5 year vesting requirement.  So a house member who was booted after 2 terms would not be eligible for a pension.  A senator who was voted out after 1 term would be eligible for a pension of about 18,000/year (174x1.7%x6), but not until they reached full pension age (which would be 62, if that was their only federal employment).
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on December 31, 2018, 07:48:53 AM
To say that over 45% of the voting population is " ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes" sounds great in an echo chamber

Did I say that? 

I said that DreamFIRE's contention that most Americans voted for a wall suggests that those people are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes.  Because the wall is a symbol of ignorant, racist, xenophobia and not a rational response to illegal immigration.  You can certainly want to reduce illegal immigration without being those things, but I don't think you can support a wall without being those things.

The wall is a symbol of racism and xenophobia perpetuated by ignorant people who do not understand our nation's immigration problems.  It's an overly simplified rally-chant style "solution" to a complex problem with generations of backstory.  A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships.  It will not reduce the incentive for immigrants to come to America to seek work, and it will not alleviate the conditions that motivate people to leave their home country's in the first place. 

If you want to spend $5 billion on securing the border, building a border wall is about number six on the list of most effective ways to do it.  The only reason people like it is because it's a symbol of their xenophobia, in a way that more effective policies like enforcing labor laws are not.   The wall is a giant middle finger to refugees, an art installation that says "America hates you." 

So yea, I think I can safely stand by my assertion.  I did not say that Americans are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes, in facts I said that most Americans are not.  I said that the people who are stuck on the wall as a symbol of racism and xenophobia but an ineffective deterrent are ignorant and racist and xenophobic rubes.  It's DreamFIRE who tried to suggest that this was most of us.

Like most Democrats, I have no problem with "securing the border" and I've supported immigration reform for decades now.  Let's not forget that it was republicans who have drowned the last four immigration reform bills in a row, because they included some form of a pathway to citizenship for people who are already in America, have no criminal record, have found employment, and want to become full American citizens. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 31, 2018, 08:24:33 AM
A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships. 

I can attest that Sol is correct; exactly zero of the drugs and people I have interdicted would have been stopped by a wall. Because all this happened, you know, on the ocean. Perhaps what we need is ocean walls! We could call Hadrian up, and ask him how walls function. Or, maybe Qin Shi Huang. Or, André Maginot. I'm sure they'd all offer sage advice.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: scottish on December 31, 2018, 09:37:01 AM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.

The liberal talking point is that the wall isn't the only solution and doesn't solve all of the problems.  It's not supposed to.  Those other things are also important as well, but they don't negate the necessity for the wall.  I would gladly pay more taxes to build the wall and increase border security, enforce existing immigration law, and stepping up efforts to deport illegals.  It sure beats the astronomical cost of illegal aliens over the long term who suck much more out of the system than they even begin to contribute (as shown by the Heritage study.)

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

Mexico will pay for the wall
Mexico will pay for the wall
Mexico will pay for the wall
Rinse and Repeat

That's all I heard during the campaign.  I do not want one cent of my tax dollars going for a stupid f*cking wall that WE DON'T NEED!  If that stupid f*cking tangerine sh*tdemon sitting in the WH wants it so badly then he needs to live up to his promise and make Mexico, not us, pay for it.

He's a billionaire you know.   He could pay for it himself.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: scottish on December 31, 2018, 09:40:32 AM
To say that over 45% of the voting population is " ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes" sounds great in an echo chamber

Did I say that? 

I said that DreamFIRE's contention that most Americans voted for a wall suggests that those people are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes.  Because the wall is a symbol of ignorant, racist, xenophobia and not a rational response to illegal immigration.  You can certainly want to reduce illegal immigration without being those things, but I don't think you can support a wall without being those things.

The wall is a symbol of racism and xenophobia perpetuated by ignorant people who do not understand our nation's immigration problems.  It's an overly simplified rally-chant style "solution" to a complex problem with generations of backstory.  A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships.  It will not reduce the incentive for immigrants to come to America to seek work, and it will not alleviate the conditions that motivate people to leave their home country's in the first place. 

If you want to spend $5 billion on securing the border, building a border wall is about number six on the list of most effective ways to do it.  The only reason people like it is because it's a symbol of their xenophobia, in a way that more effective policies like enforcing labor laws are not.   The wall is a giant middle finger to refugees, an art installation that says "America hates you." 

So yea, I think I can safely stand by my assertion.  I did not say that Americans are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes, in facts I said that most Americans are not.  I said that the people who are stuck on the wall as a symbol of racism and xenophobia but an ineffective deterrent are ignorant and racist and xenophobic rubes.  It's DreamFIRE who tried to suggest that this was most of us.

Like most Democrats, I have no problem with "securing the border" and I've supported immigration reform for decades now.  Let's not forget that it was republicans who have drowned the last four immigration reform bills in a row, because they included some form of a pathway to citizenship for people who are already in America, have no criminal record, have found employment, and want to become full American citizens.

Is it possible that the right could view the wall as a symbol of America's sovereignty?     It's pretty hard to believe that you guys have 60M ignorant, racist xenophobic rubes down there.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on December 31, 2018, 10:51:15 AM
To say that over 45% of the voting population is " ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes" sounds great in an echo chamber

Did I say that? 

I said that DreamFIRE's contention that most Americans voted for a wall suggests that those people are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes.  Because the wall is a symbol of ignorant, racist, xenophobia and not a rational response to illegal immigration.  You can certainly want to reduce illegal immigration without being those things, but I don't think you can support a wall without being those things.

The wall is a symbol of racism and xenophobia perpetuated by ignorant people who do not understand our nation's immigration problems.  It's an overly simplified rally-chant style "solution" to a complex problem with generations of backstory.  A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships.  It will not reduce the incentive for immigrants to come to America to seek work, and it will not alleviate the conditions that motivate people to leave their home country's in the first place. 

If you want to spend $5 billion on securing the border, building a border wall is about number six on the list of most effective ways to do it.  The only reason people like it is because it's a symbol of their xenophobia, in a way that more effective policies like enforcing labor laws are not.   The wall is a giant middle finger to refugees, an art installation that says "America hates you." 

So yea, I think I can safely stand by my assertion.  I did not say that Americans are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes, in facts I said that most Americans are not.  I said that the people who are stuck on the wall as a symbol of racism and xenophobia but an ineffective deterrent are ignorant and racist and xenophobic rubes.  It's DreamFIRE who tried to suggest that this was most of us.

Like most Democrats, I have no problem with "securing the border" and I've supported immigration reform for decades now.  Let's not forget that it was republicans who have drowned the last four immigration reform bills in a row, because they included some form of a pathway to citizenship for people who are already in America, have no criminal record, have found employment, and want to become full American citizens.

Sol,
You are actually a big contributor in spewing insults on the right shutting down any real discussion.  It is great for riling up your own base but harms the discussion at hand.  You are a very intelligent guy but so far pressed against the liberal side of the wall you lose sight of other people and other views.  Open discussion is extremely important in progress and change.  It can never occur when the go to conversation is insults. BTW, words like racism, xenophobia, misogyny are common go to terms for the far left. 

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on December 31, 2018, 10:57:10 AM
A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships. 

I can attest that Sol is correct; exactly zero of the drugs and people I have interdicted would have been stopped by a wall. Because all this happened, you know, on the ocean. Perhaps what we need is ocean walls! We could call Hadrian up, and ask him how walls function. Or, maybe Qin Shi Huang. Or, André Maginot. I'm sure they'd all offer sage advice.

Just curious, do you work by or on the Ocean and your experience is biased?  Your name is Sailor Sam right?
In medicine I see a lot of people on Medicaid having the latest headphones, iPhones, and drive nice cars. They are able bodied Americans who are cheating the system.  I know that they don't represent the entire or even most of the Medicaid population even though in my line of work they seam to be a majority.

Sailor Sam, you are also one of those far left people who likes to jump out of nowhere and throw insults at those who disagree with you.  Ok, I have donned my flame retardant suit.  I'm ready for you.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: accolay on December 31, 2018, 11:18:26 AM
I think Rep.  Chuck Schumer has it  about right,
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1078496926058700800
Where did he say we need a border wall and that Mexico will pay for it?

Here's a transcript of that speech if you'd care to read the thing in entirety instead of cherry picking two clips.
https://votesmart.org/public-statement/435424/remarks-by-us-senator-charles-e-schumer-6th-annual-immigration-law-and-policy-conference-migration-policy-institute#.XCpZMM1MFPZ (https://votesmart.org/public-statement/435424/remarks-by-us-senator-charles-e-schumer-6th-annual-immigration-law-and-policy-conference-migration-policy-institute#.XCpZMM1MFPZ)



Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 31, 2018, 11:30:54 AM
A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships. 

I can attest that Sol is correct; exactly zero of the drugs and people I have interdicted would have been stopped by a wall. Because all this happened, you know, on the ocean. Perhaps what we need is ocean walls! We could call Hadrian up, and ask him how walls function. Or, maybe Qin Shi Huang. Or, André Maginot. I'm sure they'd all offer sage advice.

Just curious, do you work by or on the Ocean and your experience is biased?  Your name is Sailor Sam right?

I don't understand the use of the world biased, and I'd like to ensure we're actually communicating. I'm an active duty officer for the United States Coast Guard, so my personal witnessing of illegal immigration is certainly limited to the ocean. I have NOT personally witnessed any illegal immigration across the southern border, and cannot personally testify as to the rates. Is that what what you were saying about me being biased? And by implication that I have no voice in discussing rates and origins of illegal immigration?

Assuming I'm correct, then my point wasn't that the ocean is the only way for illegal immigration to occur; rather I can attest that illegal immigration does occur, at a very nice clip, via the ocean. Which is why I was agreeing with @sol that a wall across the southern border will not stop the flow of drugs (or the assumed implication, illegals).

In medicine I see a lot of people on Medicaid having the latest headphones, iPhones, and drive nice cars. They are able bodied Americans who are cheating the system.  I know that they don't represent the entire or even most of the Medicaid population even though in my line of work they seam to be a majority.
I understand you're trying to lay out an example of your biased point above, but I'm not following. Can you clarify?

Sailor Sam, you are also one of those far left people who likes to jump out of nowhere and throw insults at those who disagree with you.  Ok, I have donned my flame retardant suit.  I'm ready for you.
Well, one can never truly know what one's fellow man thinks of them; however I've been told that my overarching forum reputation is to genuinely seek communication. However, I'm not perfect, and I like to play with language. Sometimes I let my joy over getting in a clever word slip over the edge of politeness. If you care to point out where I've insulted someone, not just disagreed but actually name called, I will certainly consider offering apologies.

Though, I'm not particularly left, I'm in the military for God's sake.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on December 31, 2018, 03:00:49 PM
A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships. 

I can attest that Sol is correct; exactly zero of the drugs and people I have interdicted would have been stopped by a wall. Because all this happened, you know, on the ocean. Perhaps what we need is ocean walls! We could call Hadrian up, and ask him how walls function. Or, maybe Qin Shi Huang. Or, André Maginot. I'm sure they'd all offer sage advice.

Just curious, do you work by or on the Ocean and your experience is biased?  Your name is Sailor Sam right?
In medicine I see a lot of people on Medicaid having the latest headphones, iPhones, and drive nice cars. They are able bodied Americans who are cheating the system.  I know that they don't represent the entire or even most of the Medicaid population even though in my line of work they seam to be a majority.



Considering that you just posted misleading information about congressional pensions, and I remember several years ago having to also correct your lack of understanding about the differences between Medicare and Medicaid (and you supposedly a doctor!), then you might also consider your own potential biases and incomplete understanding before jumping to the conclusion that everyone with opinions that differ from yours must suffer from those flaws, while you do not. Certainly not everyone who disagrees with you is a far left liberal.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: marty998 on December 31, 2018, 03:21:37 PM
You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.

I'm sure you're aware that private industry gets government bailout money, and government pensions do not?  When the federal pension program needs funds, it sells bonds.  Your taxes do not support federal pensions.

By the reasoning you appear to be espousing, private industry shouldn't be getting bailout money, right?  Like the $17billion that GM got, largely for pensions?  Or the $85billion for AIG?  Because those are literally your tax dollars being spent to bail out the gross mismanagement of private for-profit corporations.  Unlike the federal pension system.

You're way understating it here @sol. Those examples miss the big one - the value of the TARP bailouts and the opportunity cost of the Fed providing below market interest rate loans to all the banks from 2007-2012.

Free market capitalism and private sector brilliance for you ;)

This is an interesting take on it:

http://wallstreetonparade.com/2015/11/how-did-the-taxpayer-make-out-on-the-wall-street-bailout/
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 31, 2018, 03:47:40 PM
great for riling up your own base but harms the discussion at hand. 

Pot, kettle.

Except the kettle is being reasonable and your posting is whinefest and personal accusations.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: honeybbq on December 31, 2018, 03:49:06 PM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.

The cost of a wall is peanuts compared to the estimated $10 TRILLION dollar cost of illegal immigration.

The liberal talking point is that the wall isn't the only solution and doesn't solve all of the problems.  It's not supposed to.  Those other things are also important as well, but they don't negate the necessity for the wall.  I would gladly pay more taxes to build the wall and increase border security, enforce existing immigration law, and stepping up efforts to deport illegals.  It sure beats the astronomical cost of illegal aliens over the long term who suck much more out of the system than they even begin to contribute (as shown by the Heritage study.)

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

This is from The Onion, right? RIGHT???
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on December 31, 2018, 06:32:50 PM
Anyone interested in building a wall around this fucking conversation?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on December 31, 2018, 06:58:21 PM
Anyone interested in building a wall around this fucking conversation?

Is Mexico going to pay for it?

Hehehehehehehehe!
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on December 31, 2018, 07:57:25 PM
I'm currently funded a few months in advance, so this one won't hurt me directly unless it extends into February, but the last furlough affected my entire program, and we had to replan the entire program due to a series of short delays in starting the program.  It took over 25 man-months to reschedule and re-budget the program to still fit within the constraints.   It is NOT a matter of just shifting everything a few weeks.  That's $0.5Million just to replan.  It doesn't count all the people waiting to hear what they can and cannot do under the new program.  It's an extremely inefficient way to do business.

Ooh, look, an on-topic post! ;)

I am furloughed and it's annoying.  Spring is my busy season with training and contract starts for field season.  I need this time to prepare.  The work doesn't decrease because I now have less time to do it.

On the bright side, I did get my kitchen deep-cleaned, repainted, and faucet installed.

As some others mentioned, this is really disruptive to contracts.  I had a contractor working for me on a project for the last 19 months, ending today.  As busy as I've been, I was counting on the three workdays after Christmas to make sure I understood everything he'd done, knew where all his files were stored, etc.  Instead, we had 15 minutes to get his government property and a hand-wave about where everything was when we went in for shutdown procedures on the 26th.  I've been trying to add some funds to his contract to write a manuscript for publication, but now that's screwed up, and he might be too busy by the time we get back to work, put all the contracts back into motion, and are able to address this one thing.

Another person working under me for the past two years was set to change to a new contract tomorrow.  So she is sitting home now, and can't work on anything even though the contract is already paid for with last year's money, and is thoroughly familiar with the work that needs to be done.  And she probably will go unpaid during this time, when she would much rather be working.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 31, 2018, 08:21:53 PM
I have a story!

I spent today on the phone, trying to understand the circumstances my ship currently finds herself in.

SCENE: A small beige office aboard a big white ship of the long blue line. The ship is on the hairy edge of expiration for several critical inspections, and we must go to shipyard! Without shipyard we will all die, plus the schedule will be muppetfucked all the way into Tuesday. Shipyard is super, duper, uuuuper critical.

HOWEVER, no one is certain if the shipyard contract was actually completed before 0000 on Friday. Trouble! Much chaos over the entire Christmas break. Much sweating by the XO (your trusted and non-hyperbolic author)

THEN! A development rings out! The KO was un-furloughed just long enough to verify that the the contract was fully and legally completed. The ship will go to shipyard. Victory!

EXCEPT!  The ship has no food. The ship does not have enough fuel to get from point A to point B. The only official who may authorize these purchases is the Deputy Undersecretary for Operations. Forth down from El Presidente.

CONCLUSION: your intrepid XO talked to the DUSO with his own voice, and felt very grown up. During each of the 6 calls I made in order to actually establish this lofty line of communication, I spoke to officers with whom I have history and bonhomie. Each all began with a polite "How is your shutdown going?", and ended with "We're not gettin' paid, but remember how much we love our country."

The reply was universal, and profaned my corpus in ways I dare not repeat and continue to claim upright propriety. But the tone, friends. The tone! Imagine Eeyore. Then imagine him a little more morose. A little more. Just a titch more. Just a nudge. There! That's the tone, exactly.

The tale might lose something in the retelling, but damn it was funny from my end. And it is a tale of the shutdown. I have done my job.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Monkey Uncle on January 01, 2019, 04:39:06 AM
<snip>

In other shutdown news, I had a national park vacation schedule for this week.  I expected all of the visitor centers and bathrooms to be closed, but all of the parks I've been to have actually been locked, like at the gate.
Yesterday at Guadalupe, the entrance gate was barred and there about a hundred cars parked along the side of the highway with families running across multiple lanes during breaks in the traffic.  This is NOT SAFE.  Why don't they just leave the gate open and let people use the nice turn lane, and then park in the huge parking lot a hundred yards away, where no one is going to get mowed down?  There are still nature trails and such you can access without needing the visitor center to be open.  By all means lock the buildings, but don't lock the gates to a park that I own.

I'm waiting for the national news to cover the first traffic fatality at a "closed" national park that decided to block safe access and put kids at risk of being mowed down by speeding cars.  This is stupid.

It's interesting the way that different agencies have different takes on what "shut down" means.  The Forest Service closes buildings and facilities, but doesn't bother trying to keep people out of the National Forests, whereas the Park Service takes the view that entire parks are closed to the public.  But I guess that's because they have actual gates at most of the entrances.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Monkey Uncle on January 01, 2019, 04:51:33 AM
I may be drifting a little off topic here, but I wanted to share some thoughts about how to end this shutdown crap permanently.  A while back I posted a pie-in-the-sky wish list in the off-topic forum of all the things I want to do to fix America's problems.  Here's my idea for shutdowns:

Quote
Stop Playing Political Games with the Budget and Debt Ceiling.  For years Congress has failed to do its most basic job – establish the annual federal budget prior to the beginning of the fiscal year.  On one occasion Congress chose to play a high-stakes game of financial “chicken” by threatening to default on the national debt instead of raising the debt ceiling to cover obligations that had already been incurred 

Pass legislation (or amend the constitution if necessary) to accomplish the following:
•   Prohibit Congress from taking up any non-budget legislation, emergencies excepted, if the annual budget for the upcoming fiscal year has not passed by August 1.  Prohibit Congress from going into recess for any reason until a budget has passed.
•   If the annual budget does not pass by the beginning of the fiscal year, automatically continue funding under a continuing resolution, thereby eliminating government shutdowns.  Keep Congress in session without recess until the budget has passed. 
•   Hold Congressional leadership in contempt if a budget is not in place when a session of Congress ends.
•   Increase the debt ceiling automatically if Congress does not do it in time to prevent a default.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: OtherJen on January 01, 2019, 08:46:12 AM
<snip>

In other shutdown news, I had a national park vacation schedule for this week.  I expected all of the visitor centers and bathrooms to be closed, but all of the parks I've been to have actually been locked, like at the gate.
Yesterday at Guadalupe, the entrance gate was barred and there about a hundred cars parked along the side of the highway with families running across multiple lanes during breaks in the traffic.  This is NOT SAFE.  Why don't they just leave the gate open and let people use the nice turn lane, and then park in the huge parking lot a hundred yards away, where no one is going to get mowed down?  There are still nature trails and such you can access without needing the visitor center to be open.  By all means lock the buildings, but don't lock the gates to a park that I own.

I'm waiting for the national news to cover the first traffic fatality at a "closed" national park that decided to block safe access and put kids at risk of being mowed down by speeding cars.  This is stupid.

It's interesting the way that different agencies have different takes on what "shut down" means.  The Forest Service closes buildings and facilities, but doesn't bother trying to keep people out of the National Forests, whereas the Park Service takes the view that entire parks are closed to the public.  But I guess that's because they have actual gates at most of the entrances.

You can’t really close the forests. In Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, the main east-west road runs through the Hiawatha National Forest.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 01, 2019, 08:55:53 AM
Monkey Uncle, pragmatically I think we could do a much better job of avoiding shutdowns than we do currently if we just had a different definition of essential vs non-essential functions.

If air traffic controllers got sent home in the event of a shutdown (and commercial air travel shut down whenever the government got within 24 hours of a shutdown to avoid last minute disasters), I imagine congress would be under a lot more pressure to avoid shutdowns from the sorts of folks with sufficient money and power influence that they'd actually be listened to. It would also have meant that in this particular case congress would have been stranded in DC over the holidays rather than being able to go home and visit their families.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 01, 2019, 11:40:10 AM
I have a story!

I spent today on the phone, trying to understand the circumstances my ship currently finds herself in.

SCENE: A small beige office aboard a big white ship of the long blue line. The ship is on the hairy edge of expiration for several critical inspections, and we must go to shipyard! Without shipyard we will all die, plus the schedule will be muppetfucked all the way into Tuesday. Shipyard is super, duper, uuuuper critical.

HOWEVER, no one is certain if the shipyard contract was actually completed before 0000 on Friday. Trouble! Much chaos over the entire Christmas break. Much sweating by the XO (your trusted and non-hyperbolic author)

THEN! A development rings out! The KO was un-furloughed just long enough to verify that the the contract was fully and legally completed. The ship will go to shipyard. Victory!

EXCEPT!  The ship has no food. The ship does not have enough fuel to get from point A to point B. The only official who may authorize these purchases is the Deputy Undersecretary for Operations. Forth down from El Presidente.

CONCLUSION: your intrepid XO talked to the DUSO with his own voice, and felt very grown up. During each of the 6 calls I made in order to actually establish this lofty line of communication, I spoke to officers with whom I have history and bonhomie. Each all began with a polite "How is your shutdown going?", and ended with "We're not gettin' paid, but remember how much we love our country."

The reply was universal, and profaned my corpus in ways I dare not repeat and continue to claim upright propriety. But the tone, friends. The tone! Imagine Eeyore. Then imagine him a little more morose. A little more. Just a titch more. Just a nudge. There! That's the tone, exactly.

The tale might lose something in the retelling, but damn it was funny from my end. And it is a tale of the shutdown. I have done my job.
I've listened to lesser podcasts than this.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: accolay on January 01, 2019, 08:27:00 PM
I don't have a personal story but surprise! No supervision brings out the best in humans:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-shutdown-national-parks-transform-into-wild-west-%e2%80%94-heavily-populated-and-barely-supervised/ar-BBRGXeI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-shutdown-national-parks-transform-into-wild-west-%e2%80%94-heavily-populated-and-barely-supervised/ar-BBRGXeI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout)
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/us/government-shutdown-national-parks-toilets-services/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/us/government-shutdown-national-parks-toilets-services/index.html)

I wonder how many sites will be vandalized? I pick up enough trash when I visit The Parks already, I can't imagine how bad it's getting with nobody watching. No fucking honor. I wish the parks would all just close the gates.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 01, 2019, 09:51:05 PM
A wall will not slow the flow of illegal immigrants into America, because a tiny tiny fraction of them cross the desert in the places that a wall would go.  A wall will not stop the flow of drugs, which mostly come and go via main ports of entry, or ships. 

I can attest that Sol is correct; exactly zero of the drugs and people I have interdicted would have been stopped by a wall. Because all this happened, you know, on the ocean. Perhaps what we need is ocean walls! We could call Hadrian up, and ask him how walls function. Or, maybe Qin Shi Huang. Or, André Maginot. I'm sure they'd all offer sage advice.

Just curious, do you work by or on the Ocean and your experience is biased?  Your name is Sailor Sam right?

I don't understand the use of the world biased, and I'd like to ensure we're actually communicating. I'm an active duty officer for the United States Coast Guard, so my personal witnessing of illegal immigration is certainly limited to the ocean. I have NOT personally witnessed any illegal immigration across the southern border, and cannot personally testify as to the rates. Is that what what you were saying about me being biased? And by implication that I have no voice in discussing rates and origins of illegal immigration?

Assuming I'm correct, then my point wasn't that the ocean is the only way for illegal immigration to occur; rather I can attest that illegal immigration does occur, at a very nice clip, via the ocean. Which is why I was agreeing with @sol that a wall across the southern border will not stop the flow of drugs (or the assumed implication, illegals).

In medicine I see a lot of people on Medicaid having the latest headphones, iPhones, and drive nice cars. They are able bodied Americans who are cheating the system.  I know that they don't represent the entire or even most of the Medicaid population even though in my line of work they seam to be a majority.
I understand you're trying to lay out an example of your biased point above, but I'm not following. Can you clarify?

Sailor Sam, you are also one of those far left people who likes to jump out of nowhere and throw insults at those who disagree with you.  Ok, I have donned my flame retardant suit.  I'm ready for you.
Well, one can never truly know what one's fellow man thinks of them; however I've been told that my overarching forum reputation is to genuinely seek communication. However, I'm not perfect, and I like to play with language. Sometimes I let my joy over getting in a clever word slip over the edge of politeness. If you care to point out where I've insulted someone, not just disagreed but actually name called, I will certainly consider offering apologies.

Though, I'm not particularly left, I'm in the military for God's sake.

@Sailor Sam,
Yes that is what I meant by biased.  I figure since you are on the water you see things related to water.  So obviously 0 of the people you interact with have anything to do with land based borders.  I'm sure plenty of people you don't interact with are crossing over land based borders as well.  I'm not saying the wall is the answer.  Just pointing out your comment.  And my example of experiencing one thing does not mean everything is that one thing.  This was directly to your comment:
Quote
exactly zero of the drugs and people I have interdicted would have been stopped by a wall. Because all this happened, you know, on the ocean.

Which makes it seam a little misleading like your experience shows this stuff is only happening in open waters.  Maybe not your intention but how it looks.

Quote
Well, one can never truly know what one's fellow man thinks of them; however I've been told that my overarching forum reputation is to genuinely seek communication. However, I'm not perfect, and I like to play with language. Sometimes I let my joy over getting in a clever word slip over the edge of politeness. If you care to point out where I've insulted someone, not just disagreed but actually name called, I will certainly consider offering apologies.

Quote
Remember, everyone. DreamFIRE is essentially a toddler having a tantrum. Rationality and compassion have flown, and the only emotional resource he has left is to lay on the ground and scream. Best not to engage.

Seams like an insult to me.  You have also thrown some ad hominem attacks my way in the past when disagreeing. Therefor I speak of experience.

On another note. It is unfortunate the recent issues the shutdown has caused you and your crew.  It is unfortunate that those who are charged to defend us have to deal with such bullshit.

@wenchsenior
Just because I accidentally mistyped something about medicare or Medicaid and you jumped on me for it does not mean I am not a physician. Like you I am human and can make mistakes. Earlier I posted something incorrect about Congressional pensions. I puled that info from the web what I believed was a good source and posted it including the source.  You corrected my mistake with more detailed info and I thank you for that. We learn from these discussions and I am better for it as is everyone else who chooses to read.  Then you go and attack me personally and all future talk goes out the window.  Keep in mind I have never attacked you, or thrown insults in your direction.  Never!  Why is it that you can not treat me with the same courtesy?

great for riling up your own base but harms the discussion at hand. 

Pot, kettle.

Except the kettle is being reasonable and your posting is whinefest and personal accusations.

@TomTX
In regards to my comments.  I have not used a single ad hominem attack on them. I only pointed out that personal attacks or generalizations on a particular political base harm any chance of meaningful dialogue.  Unless the goal is to insult and stifle conversation, those types of remarks should ideally not be used.  In addition I complemented one of them on being intelligent and although we do disagree on specifics, in many generalities we see eye to eye.  In addition I have no political base.  I am pretty much down the middle and there is no one for me to rile up.  The goal is to have open conversation so that we can all learn from each other.  It seams like a pretty reasonable goal to me wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Radagast on January 01, 2019, 10:06:08 PM
There's always room for compromise, right?  Can Schumer offer him the $5b in exchange for a DACA fix and an inflation-matching pay increase for federal employees and releasing his tax returns?
I would definitely take that compromise.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Monkey Uncle on January 02, 2019, 04:49:22 AM
Monkey Uncle, pragmatically I think we could do a much better job of avoiding shutdowns than we do currently if we just had a different definition of essential vs non-essential functions.

If air traffic controllers got sent home in the event of a shutdown (and commercial air travel shut down whenever the government got within 24 hours of a shutdown to avoid last minute disasters), I imagine congress would be under a lot more pressure to avoid shutdowns from the sorts of folks with sufficient money and power influence that they'd actually be listened to. It would also have meant that in this particular case congress would have been stranded in DC over the holidays rather than being able to go home and visit their families.

Yeah, if they truly shut down the government instead of forcing the "essential" people to work for an IOU, I think it would go a long way toward stopping these shenanigans, or at least shortening them.  But I could see some of the true extremists in Congress and the White House playing chicken with that, like they did with the threat to default on the debt.  It would be even better if we, as a nation, just said funding will continue automatically at current levels, adjusted for inflation, if our elected officials can't reach an agreement on appropriations.  That would actually be a big motivator for the parties to compromise, because if funding just continues as it currently is, no one has any chance to push their policy priorities.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 02, 2019, 05:04:21 AM
In another story.  Co-worker and I had this conversation again not about bills per say but he was thinking out loud about what happens with the child support he pays.  The Friend of the Court here is not forgiving and normally his Child support comes out directly from his paycheck.  So the question he now gets to speak with the Friend of the Court is now what since I don't know when I'm going to get a paycheck next.  From what my co-worker says, the Friend of the Court does not care if there is an agreement about this issue between the ex's.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 02, 2019, 06:08:57 AM
Yes, that is the trade off. Lower change of a shutdown, but worse outcomes when they did happen.

I think switching from a default of government shutting down to a default of government continues at prior funding levels would be a much better solution long term, but also harder to get implemented.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: StarBright on January 02, 2019, 07:43:21 AM
I work for a small company and we had a project planned in DC last week and this week. We had rearranged everyone's schedules because part of the work could only be done when Congress wasn't in session (and they wanted it done in 2018). We spent a couple of months planning for this because it was going to be a large drain on our resources right over the holidays. Half of our company went without family trips over Christmas to be available (but were also promised bonuses for working over the holiday).

Unfortunately - the group we are working with is considered non-essential. All that planning down the drain.

No one is going without pay, but I have a lot of cranky people this morning who didn't get to see their families and are unsure if they are getting the bonuses now.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: x02947 on January 02, 2019, 07:49:27 AM
I switched from contractor to fed about 2 months ago.  Within those two months, I have had 2 "extra" federal holidays plus the knowledge that I'll most likely get back pay for any of the shutdowns.  I'm also low enough on the totem pole that I can just make up the work, rather than having it actually affect me :).  In the year previous to switching, I literally lost half my annual leave to shutdown/base closures for weather.  My contractor coworker used to tell me I was crazy for going fed- prior to the shutdown he begrudgingly told me that he could now understand. 

I'm DOD, so not affected by the shutdown, but for those who are and were planning on taking leave- why would your leave not change to the day the government reopens during your scheduled leave?  Do you have to be physically present to say "hey, y'all were not planning on having me here anyways, so I'm going to just digitally resubmit my leave form and then walk out the door"  I understand having to show back up quickly if the shutdown happened during a non-holiday time.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 02, 2019, 08:00:05 AM
Which makes it seam a little misleading like your experience shows this stuff is only happening in open waters.  Maybe not your intention but how it looks.

Okay, sounds like we are interpreting your post the same way, to which I reply - meh. Sol noted that that illegal things enter the US through multiple routes, and a land wall only addresses one of those routes. I used my subject matter expertise to back up his argument that illegal things do indeed enter the US via the ocean. Seems well within my purview.

The post you quoted has nothing to do with my political leanings. If it was unacceptably rude or not, eh. I was trying to keep the thread from derailing into incivility. Again, perhaps I let my drive for cleverness win out, when I should have let succinctness rule the day. In the future, I'll revert to the classic don't feed the trolls.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on January 02, 2019, 08:47:55 AM
Yes, that is the trade off. Lower change of a shutdown, but worse outcomes when they did happen.

I think switching from a default of government shutting down to a default of government continues at prior funding levels would be a much better solution long term, but also harder to get implemented.

That is how continuing resolutions (CRs) work (minus the inflation adjustment).  However, they are short-term with end dates to help force passage of an annual spending bill.  They're really disruptive to ability to use funds efficiently though, because agencies can only spend according to the proportion of the fiscal year the CR covers (e.g. if the budget was $1m the previous year, and a CR is for 3 months, only $250K can be spent under the CR).

I'm DOD, so not affected by the shutdown, but for those who are and were planning on taking leave- why would your leave not change to the day the government reopens during your scheduled leave?  Do you have to be physically present to say "hey, y'all were not planning on having me here anyways, so I'm going to just digitally resubmit my leave form and then walk out the door"  I understand having to show back up quickly if the shutdown happened during a non-holiday time.

At least for my agency, anyone with use or lose was urged to get leave requests in early this year.  It is likely, though not assured, that scheduled use or lose annual leave coinciding with the shutdown will be restored.  People on approved leave when we re-open are not expected to come back to the office until previously scheduled.

I'm not sure how they will handle the people whose retirement dates coincided with the shutdown.  Lots of feds retire right around the 1st of the year, so there are probably going to be several abandoned desks where retirees weren't able to take the time to organize and hand off their work to their supervisor or future replacement.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 02, 2019, 05:24:12 PM
I don't have a personal story but surprise! No supervision brings out the best in humans:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-shutdown-national-parks-transform-into-wild-west-%e2%80%94-heavily-populated-and-barely-supervised/ar-BBRGXeI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-shutdown-national-parks-transform-into-wild-west-%e2%80%94-heavily-populated-and-barely-supervised/ar-BBRGXeI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout)
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/us/government-shutdown-national-parks-toilets-services/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/us/government-shutdown-national-parks-toilets-services/index.html)

I wonder how many sites will be vandalized? I pick up enough trash when I visit The Parks already, I can't imagine how bad it's getting with nobody watching. No fucking honor. I wish the parks would all just close the gates.

So, the actual articles are indicating the opposite of what you say. Citizens are voluntarily taking out the trash and cleaning the bathrooms.

The only thread of shutdown is the inability of the volunteers to empty the pit toilets. That's not a behavior issue.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: NykkiC on January 02, 2019, 05:57:12 PM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.

As a former Aussie public servant, I remain equally baffled - especially for the people who are told they still need to come in. I mean, work is getting paid to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. If I’m not getting paid*, then why would any employer think they could demand I work anyway? I certainly wouldn’t be, not unless they have a legal order conscripting me to work for free.

*here meaning a guaranteed payment in a timely manner and as per the conditions under which I accepted my job
A lot of the jobs are considered "essential" and it would be dangerous for the public if they shutdown. Think Air Traffic Controllers, Federal prison guards and other law enforcement fields, federal medical facilities, first responders, etc. I was in the Coast Guard and went thru a few short term shutdowns and had to continue working with no pay. It was a PITA but pay was retroactive...eventually. The longest shutdown I can remember was about a month in the mid-1990s. Most others have been short lived.

I understand the mechanism (identifying the necessary employees); I don’t understand how threatening people’s jobs to work for pay they don’t know for sure if, let alone when, they will receive is right or justified.

Employment is a two way street; the employee does a job and the employer pays them. If the employer (in this case the federal government) isn’t keeping up its side of the deal, then why is there an obligation for the employee to do so?

Besides, it’s not like the money can’t be sourced, it’s that various individuals and factions are refusing to do so for their own reasons. Well, not paying people has (or should have) consequences; why do politicians get to be protected from the political blowback of them at the expense of federal employees?

And that’s without considering that not paying people who still need to pay their own bills substantially increases the risk of corruption. But, hey. It’s not like those people forced to work for uncertain pay are the people in the crucial positions and who could do the most damage if their behaviour was increasingly corrupt.

Ah well, at least it’s not my problem.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Monkey Uncle on January 02, 2019, 06:25:01 PM
Yes, that is the trade off. Lower change of a shutdown, but worse outcomes when they did happen.

I think switching from a default of government shutting down to a default of government continues at prior funding levels would be a much better solution long term, but also harder to get implemented.

That is how continuing resolutions (CRs) work (minus the inflation adjustment).  However, they are short-term with end dates to help force passage of an annual spending bill.  They're really disruptive to ability to use funds efficiently though, because agencies can only spend according to the proportion of the fiscal year the CR covers (e.g. if the budget was $1m the previous year, and a CR is for 3 months, only $250K can be spent under the CR).

But right now CRs have to be enacted by Congress, just like regular spending bills.  I was suggesting that CRs should be automatic so that the political demagogues are deprived of the leverage that a shut down gives them in their attempts to force poison pills down the public's throat.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: accolay on January 04, 2019, 05:29:15 PM
So, the actual articles are indicating the opposite of what you say. Citizens are voluntarily taking out the trash and cleaning the bathrooms.

The only thread of shutdown is the inability of the volunteers to empty the pit toilets. That's not a behavior issue.

Yes, it's very heartening that some are donating time and money to help out with the problems facing the parks right now, so take what I wrote both sarcastically and literally. Because if you really want to dig deeper spend a minute reading about people shitting in places they shouldn't, dumping their garbage, going off trail, bringing pets where no pets are allowed, cutting down trees and etc. My experience with humans tells me that they're having fires in places they shouldn't be, camping where prohibited, probably some poaching, vandalism, stolen artifacts and fossils. Just about anything else you can think of that you're not supposed to do because "it wont hurt if it's just me doing it."
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on January 04, 2019, 05:37:32 PM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.

As a former Aussie public servant, I remain equally baffled - especially for the people who are told they still need to come in. I mean, work is getting paid to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. If I’m not getting paid*, then why would any employer think they could demand I work anyway? I certainly wouldn’t be, not unless they have a legal order conscripting me to work for free.

*here meaning a guaranteed payment in a timely manner and as per the conditions under which I accepted my job
A lot of the jobs are considered "essential" and it would be dangerous for the public if they shutdown. Think Air Traffic Controllers, Federal prison guards and other law enforcement fields, federal medical facilities, first responders, etc. I was in the Coast Guard and went thru a few short term shutdowns and had to continue working with no pay. It was a PITA but pay was retroactive...eventually. The longest shutdown I can remember was about a month in the mid-1990s. Most others have been short lived.

I understand the mechanism (identifying the necessary employees); I don’t understand how threatening people’s jobs to work for pay they don’t know for sure if, let alone when, they will receive is right or justified.

Employment is a two way street; the employee does a job and the employer pays them. If the employer (in this case the federal government) isn’t keeping up its side of the deal, then why is there an obligation for the employee to do so?

Besides, it’s not like the money can’t be sourced, it’s that various individuals and factions are refusing to do so for their own reasons. Well, not paying people has (or should have) consequences; why do politicians get to be protected from the political blowback of them at the expense of federal employees?

And that’s without considering that not paying people who still need to pay their own bills substantially increases the risk of corruption. But, hey. It’s not like those people forced to work for uncertain pay are the people in the crucial positions and who could do the most damage if their behaviour was increasingly corrupt.

Ah well, at least it’s not my problem.

I agree - employment is a transaction. If I don't get paid, I'm not working, end of story. I may offer to volunteer my services in one respect or another, but I won't be compelled to do so by some fat orange manchild on a personal crusade.

Now I hear that he's threatening to keep this shut down going for an extended period. There's something horrendously wrong with a system where one person can hold an entire country to ransom. He's not frickin Henry the Eighth.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: I'm a red panda on January 04, 2019, 05:41:49 PM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.

As a former Aussie public servant, I remain equally baffled - especially for the people who are told they still need to come in. I mean, work is getting paid to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. If I’m not getting paid*, then why would any employer think they could demand I work anyway? I certainly wouldn’t be, not unless they have a legal order conscripting me to work for free.

*here meaning a guaranteed payment in a timely manner and as per the conditions under which I accepted my job
A lot of the jobs are considered "essential" and it would be dangerous for the public if they shutdown. Think Air Traffic Controllers, Federal prison guards and other law enforcement fields, federal medical facilities, first responders, etc. I was in the Coast Guard and went thru a few short term shutdowns and had to continue working with no pay. It was a PITA but pay was retroactive...eventually. The longest shutdown I can remember was about a month in the mid-1990s. Most others have been short lived.

I understand the mechanism (identifying the necessary employees); I don’t understand how threatening people’s jobs to work for pay they don’t know for sure if, let alone when, they will receive is right or justified.

Employment is a two way street; the employee does a job and the employer pays them. If the employer (in this case the federal government) isn’t keeping up its side of the deal, then why is there an obligation for the employee to do so?

Besides, it’s not like the money can’t be sourced, it’s that various individuals and factions are refusing to do so for their own reasons. Well, not paying people has (or should have) consequences; why do politicians get to be protected from the political blowback of them at the expense of federal employees?

And that’s without considering that not paying people who still need to pay their own bills substantially increases the risk of corruption. But, hey. It’s not like those people forced to work for uncertain pay are the people in the crucial positions and who could do the most damage if their behaviour was increasingly corrupt.

Ah well, at least it’s not my problem.

I agree - employment is a transaction. If I don't get paid, I'm not working, end of story. I may offer to volunteer my services in one respect or another, but I won't be compelled to do so by some fat orange manchild on a personal crusade.

Now I hear that he's threatening to keep this shut down going for an extended period. There's something horrendously wrong with a system where one person can hold an entire country to ransom. He's not frickin Henry the Eighth.
Well, it's two people. McConnel won't put the house bill to a vote.

In theory, the Congress can override a veto. It won't happen anytime soon.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 04, 2019, 05:44:26 PM
I've often wondered what happened generally to federal worker retention and recruitment after the shutdowns in the 90s. Government jobs tend to pay less than equivalent positions in the private sector (or in my field even the public but non-federal sector) but you're supposed to make it up with better than market benefits and good job security.

It would seem the people who value job security are also going to be the people most bothered by the reminder that their paychecks can be stopped at the whim of some elected official(s).
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Monkey Uncle on January 04, 2019, 05:46:36 PM
I've often wondered what happened generally to federal worker retention and recruitment after the shutdowns in the 90s. Government jobs tend to pay less than equivalent positions in the private sector (or in my field even the public but non-federal sector) but you're supposed to make it up with better than market benefits and good job security.

It would seem the people who value job security are also going to be the people most bothered by the reminder that their paychecks can be stopped at the whim of some elected official(s).

The threat of shutdowns was a minor factor in my decision to FIRE, but it was a factor.  If this shutdown goes on for "months and months" or even "years" as Trump has threatened, I'm guessing we'll see a lot more people bailing on federal service.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on January 04, 2019, 05:49:03 PM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.

As a former Aussie public servant, I remain equally baffled - especially for the people who are told they still need to come in. I mean, work is getting paid to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. If I’m not getting paid*, then why would any employer think they could demand I work anyway? I certainly wouldn’t be, not unless they have a legal order conscripting me to work for free.

*here meaning a guaranteed payment in a timely manner and as per the conditions under which I accepted my job
A lot of the jobs are considered "essential" and it would be dangerous for the public if they shutdown. Think Air Traffic Controllers, Federal prison guards and other law enforcement fields, federal medical facilities, first responders, etc. I was in the Coast Guard and went thru a few short term shutdowns and had to continue working with no pay. It was a PITA but pay was retroactive...eventually. The longest shutdown I can remember was about a month in the mid-1990s. Most others have been short lived.

I understand the mechanism (identifying the necessary employees); I don’t understand how threatening people’s jobs to work for pay they don’t know for sure if, let alone when, they will receive is right or justified.

Employment is a two way street; the employee does a job and the employer pays them. If the employer (in this case the federal government) isn’t keeping up its side of the deal, then why is there an obligation for the employee to do so?

Besides, it’s not like the money can’t be sourced, it’s that various individuals and factions are refusing to do so for their own reasons. Well, not paying people has (or should have) consequences; why do politicians get to be protected from the political blowback of them at the expense of federal employees?

And that’s without considering that not paying people who still need to pay their own bills substantially increases the risk of corruption. But, hey. It’s not like those people forced to work for uncertain pay are the people in the crucial positions and who could do the most damage if their behaviour was increasingly corrupt.

Ah well, at least it’s not my problem.

I agree - employment is a transaction. If I don't get paid, I'm not working, end of story. I may offer to volunteer my services in one respect or another, but I won't be compelled to do so by some fat orange manchild on a personal crusade.

Now I hear that he's threatening to keep this shut down going for an extended period. There's something horrendously wrong with a system where one person can hold an entire country to ransom. He's not frickin Henry the Eighth.
Well, it's two people. McConnel won't put the house bill to a vote.

In theory, the Congress can override a veto. It won't happen anytime soon.

Madness. You know, once upon a time the USA was an enviable place to be from. Now my American colleagues tell people they're Canadian. Maybe they'll end up re-branding themselves entirely, like how people from Iran and Iraq have become Persian. Kind of sad....
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on January 04, 2019, 06:05:39 PM
The threat of shutdowns was a minor factor in my decision to FIRE, but it was a factor.  If this shutdown goes on for "months and months" or even "years" as Trump has threatened, I'm guessing we'll see a lot more people bailing on federal service.

Well, TSA employees are starting to call in sick. Who can blame them when they normally don't earn a ton, probably have child care costs each day they go to work, etc.  If this drags on and they start bailing in favor of other work, that's going to cause some problems. Nevermind the lost investment in training them, cost of hiring and training replacements, etc.

IRS is saying tax returns will be affected as well, so it seems that now the holidays are over, pressure is going to keep mounting to get back to business.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sequoia on January 05, 2019, 06:14:52 AM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.


And it was just as big a part of his campaign that Mexico would pay for it. Why is that now glossed over?

Agree, and thank you for the reminder. It is amazing how his supporters conveniently forget this. I am totally behind building a wall if Mexico pays for it.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Pizzabrewer on January 05, 2019, 11:57:55 AM
I would give up that and more to get a wall built.

^This

Agreed!  The wall is LONG overdue.  Americans voted for Trump, and the wall was a HUGE point of his campaign.


And it was just as big a part of his campaign that Mexico would pay for it. Why is that now glossed over?

Agree, and thank you for the reminder. It is amazing how his supporters conveniently forget this. I am totally behind building a wall if Mexico pays for it.

Yeah me too.  The day Mexico cuts the check I'll be the biggest supporter of building the wall. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 05, 2019, 12:28:26 PM
The day Mexico cuts the check I'll be the biggest supporter of building the wall.

I think congressional democrats have become entrenched against the wall as a symbol, apart from the cost.  They've seemingly decided to oppose it on principle, as a violation of our country's founding principles, and might even vote against it even if it was free.  I agree that more wall than we already have is an ineffective deterrent to immigration, on it's own.

We already have border walls in lots of places.  I just spent a week in west Texas, and there are definitely walls in use along long stretches of the border, especially in urban areas, that are useful deterrents for keeping poor people from wandering in and out of fancy El Paso neighborhoods.  Because that's something we apparently do.  There are also hundreds of miles of desert wilderness in national parks, where it's basically impossible to build a wall without doing significant damage.  There are already border patrol stops on every country highway leading north from the border regions, equipped with roadside scanners, that are presumably designed to catch vehicles full of people who have walked across the literal border line.  No one can walk to Minnesota from Mexico, so at some point they have to get in a vehicle and head north and those vehicles have to travel on roads.  If you want to deter immigration (and I'm not even sure that we do, if you ask farmers and ranchers and restaurant owners), a border wall is not the most cost effective solution.  There are better ways to "secure the border".

And "securing the border" has always been part of the ongoing immigration reform debate, dating back to forever but definitely using identical language since the 1980s.  People who are already here need a pathway to become legal citizens, because America needs immigration to grow and prosper.  Our birth rates are too low to sustain our economy without them.  Slowing or even stopping illegal immigration is only possible if you expand the options for legal immigration, but so far democrats have been focused on the latter part and republicans have been focuses on the former.  I think it's pretty clear that you need both, and I suspect a shutdown-ending deal that allocates more funding for border security (with or without more physical barriers) is pretty easy to achieve, as long as republicans also accept an expansion of legal immigration, like a DACA fix and higher visa quotas and funding for immigration courts to deal with our current backlog.  Both sides could declare victory in that case, I think.

But that deal appears to be a long way off.  Republicans have not offered any fixes to immigration policies at all, and democrats have not offered any funding for a physical barrier. 


Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 05, 2019, 12:46:01 PM
So how does this food stamps funding work? There are a bunch of stories about how it could be impacted in February, but very little indication on how the money actually gets distributed and accounted for. Will recipients get those benefits back later or are they gone if the agency can't top up the debit cards on the first of the month?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 05, 2019, 01:06:50 PM
So how does this food stamps funding work?

I don't know, and I'm not sure that anyone else does either.  There are lots of complications with an extended shutdown that are not well understood.

For example, federal employees pay biweekly insurance premiums.  When they don't get paid, their premiums aren't paid and their policies can technically lapse.  Are insurers required to provide free health insurance to millions of people? 

I used to work for a science agency that maintained long term monitoring stations with approximately 100 years of continuous measurements for things like climate change.  Do we just magically let a hole appear in that data record?  No one else is collecting these measurements, because no one else has ever been able to commit to a century-long monitoring program.  Missed measurements can never be recovered.

What about retirees who were on terminal leave before retiring on January 4th?  Do they get their unused leave restored and added to their annuity computation?  Do they have their retirements withheld until government re-opens and can process the paperwork?

What about astronauts and their support staff?  They're not "essential" employees but they can't exactly go home during the shutdown.  They all have to work.

I can give you a list of 50 different parts of the US government that are currently trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.  There is no guide book.  There is no law or precedent for how to deal with a shutdown that lasts more than a few days.  The whole idea that Trump could keep the government "closed" for "years" is insane.

At the very least, accept that these people are essential and need to be paid, and let the government go into debt in the meantime.  Making them work without pay is stupid.  It's an easy legislative fix, because there doesn't appear to be any logical reason why they have to stop paying people who are required to work.  If your government function is essential, then it's essential that you get paid.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 05, 2019, 01:08:32 PM
@sol,
Do you think a wall will have any affect on immigration. I would assume it would have some benefit, but in all honesty I have never looked at what the experts say so have no real opinion for or against a wall.  I am all for comprehensive immigration reform with or without a wall.

Without actually doing any research I bet I would find arguments from experts for and against this so called wall.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sequoia on January 05, 2019, 01:59:43 PM
@sol,
Do you think a wall will have any affect on immigration. I would assume it would have some benefit, but in all honesty I have never looked at what the experts say so have no real opinion for or against a wall.  I am all for comprehensive immigration reform with or without a wall.

Without actually doing any research I bet I would find arguments from experts for and against this so called wall.

There is absolutely no benefit. It will have no affect on immigration.

1. There is this thing called tunnel. I think they will just keep building more of these. Then what? Are we going to build a wall deep into the ground?

2. Look at those people who cross the sea to Europe. Trying to cross miles of open water with small overloaded boats. Thousands had died and still people keep trying. Compare that to a wall. Which one is more difficult and scary to cross? Which one is more risky? When one is willing to risk his/her life and his/her family including little kid's life, there is not a lot you can do to stop them.

3. History have told us that wall is ineffective against stopping people. Look at the Great wall of China. Longer and thicker/wider (20ft) and has guard towers with guards watching the wall 24x7. This one is not even close to that and will not be guarded all the time. One must be pretty stupid to think that this smaller unguarded wall is going to be effective to do anything when the much larger ones with dedicated guards was not effective.   

4. I always wonder, how strong is this brick wall going to be? Can one with a beat up truck, a brick pressing the accelerator, aim it to the wall like a battering ram and create a hole?

Sorry for going off course. We can go back to topic at hand...

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 05, 2019, 02:03:27 PM
@sol,
Do you think a wall will have any affect on immigration.

Negligible at best.  For the first 100 miles (out of 2000 miles of border) of new wall, anyway, there may be good arguments where specific corridors are currently inadequately screened and monitored, but as we've already established the vast majority of people working illegally in the US came here legally, and just never left.  Anyone can visit the US on a tourist VISA.  It's not hard to cross the border as a Mexican citizen if you are going on vacation, and pay the fee, and aren't on a terrorist watch list.  Just go through the border checkpoint like everyone else.  Or if you buy a plane ticket and go through customs at the airport.  Some of those folks just don't go home afterwards.  You'll never even see the walls we currently have.

If you ask the border patrol what they want, it's money.  They want to hire more federal employees to patrol the border, to install and monitor electronic surveillance equipment, to fly drones, to man checkpoints.  In some places, they want more physical barriers.  Definitely not for 2000 miles though, that's just silly.

Lots of those places are physically impossible to build a wall anyway.  They are protected nature preserves where a wall would bisect wildlife migration routes, or interfere with floodplain evolution, or cut roads.  A wall would have to have a road along it's entire length for maintenance purposes, and there's just no way to build that much infrastructure in lots of these places, like where the border is literally a slot canyon with a 500 foot cliff on either side.  One side of the canyon is Mexico and the other is the US. 

If you want to stop drugs coming across the border, a wall is useless.  Drug smugglers are businessmen, and they need to reliably move large volumes of goods.  They can buy shipping containers, just like any other importer can.  They can fly their goods, if it's profitable enough.  They are not carrying drugs by hand across 100 miles of desert where a wall could go.  Anywhere where a vehicle can cross the border, the US border patrol is already camped 24/7.  Trump's rhetoric about "unsecured borders" is laughable. 

But IMO the larger question is not whether a wall would be an effective deterrent, it's whether we want a deterrent at all.  Remember that the US population is shrinking Japan-style without immigration.  Our farmers and ranchers employ tens of thousand of illegal immigrants because they are willing to work for super low wages, and those low wages translate into lower costs for their goods.  Whole US industries absolutely depend on workers who are currently here illegally, but would much prefer to be allowed to work legally.   I'm in favor of getting them legalized.  Please, bring your family to America and then take a low-paying hard labor shitty job that white kids from the suburbs consider beneath them.  Milk cows for 40 years and raise your family in America, pay taxes and send your kids to school and contribute to the dynamic and growing powerhouse that is the US economy.  Like you, I also hope that your kids grow up and go to college and get married and make many more hard working little brown Americans.  This has always been how our country has prospered. 

Trump's rhetoric about immigration isn't about the economy, though.  It's about racial animus and the declining power of racism in America.  It's about mobilizing voters with inane fears about caravans.  It's a useful shtick, but he's not the least bit serious about addressing immigration reform in the same that congress has been trying to do for the past 30 years.  Like with every other "deal" we've seen from this administration, other adults will have to work out a compromise and then sell Trump on the finished product by convincing him it will play well with his base.  He doesn't have the background or the attention span to actually make a deal on this or any other contentious topic. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 05, 2019, 02:41:33 PM
For example, federal employees pay biweekly insurance premiums.  When they don't get paid, their premiums aren't paid and their policies can technically lapse.  Are insurers required to provide free health insurance to millions of people? 
I get your general point, but surely this isn't actually a problem, right? I assume the government, like many megacorps, doesn't actually pay premiums to insurance companies, they just pay them a fee for administering claims and retain the liability for itself.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Basenji on January 05, 2019, 03:20:39 PM
DH is DoD so still working, but friends working for guvmint were supposed to move today, as in move household items, leave home. Did not because they could not get guidance on what was funded. Fun times!

Re wall: I can't believe (nominally conservative) people don't express more concern about eminent domain seizures of private property to build wall. And maintenance of said wall could outstrip by many times the building costs, which, in any case have been estimated as way way waaay more than $10 million, like $30 to $70 million.

Even the CATO Institute thinks it's dumb: https://www.cato.org/blog/border-wall-impractical-expensive-ineffective-plan
The CATO Institute!

Quote
The most important question in this debate is how much illegal immigration is reduced per each additional dollar spent on a wall compared to each additional dollar spent on more manpower or other technologies. Despite the importance of this question, apparently no estimate of the impact of the current border fence on illegal immigration exists at all, let alone a comparison to other technologies. This is despite more than a decade to conduct such a study for the recent fences, and even longer to study the earlier fences. 

[...]

This analysis reveals that Trump was likely correct to initially say that a wall only makes sense if it is truly across the entire border. But it also seems to indicate that the primary fencing alone had little impact on illegal immigration. Even the secondary fence needed to be reinforced with substantial increases in the number of border agents.It also does little to answer the question of whether a fence is worth its cost relative to other uses.

Douglas Massey, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, argues that the true measure of efficacy should be not the flow into the United States, but also the flow out of the country. He notes that until the fences and agents were deployed in the 1990s, unauthorized immigrants typically returned home at the end of the harvest, leaving the total illegal population almost the same during the 1980s. But as the costs and risks of doing so increased, they tried almost as hard to enter, while barely any tried to leave. The border security efforts essentially trapped them in and made the problem worse.

Here's a report from RAND on international border security in general.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE290.html
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 05, 2019, 03:57:07 PM
@sol,
Do you think a wall will have any affect on immigration.

Negligible at best.  For the first 100 miles (out of 2000 miles of border) of new wall, anyway, there may be good arguments where specific corridors are currently inadequately screened and monitored, but as we've already established the vast majority of people working illegally in the US came here legally, and just never left.  Anyone can visit the US on a tourist VISA.  It's not hard to cross the border as a Mexican citizen if you are going on vacation, and pay the fee, and aren't on a terrorist watch list.  Just go through the border checkpoint like everyone else.  Or if you buy a plane ticket and go through customs at the airport.  Some of those folks just don't go home afterwards.  You'll never even see the walls we currently have.

If you ask the border patrol what they want, it's money.  They want to hire more federal employees to patrol the border, to install and monitor electronic surveillance equipment, to fly drones, to man checkpoints.  In some places, they want more physical barriers.  Definitely not for 2000 miles though, that's just silly.

Lots of those places are physically impossible to build a wall anyway.  They are protected nature preserves where a wall would bisect wildlife migration routes, or interfere with floodplain evolution, or cut roads.  A wall would have to have a road along it's entire length for maintenance purposes, and there's just no way to build that much infrastructure in lots of these places, like where the border is literally a slot canyon with a 500 foot cliff on either side.  One side of the canyon is Mexico and the other is the US. 

If you want to stop drugs coming across the border, a wall is useless.  Drug smugglers are businessmen, and they need to reliably move large volumes of goods.  They can buy shipping containers, just like any other importer can.  They can fly their goods, if it's profitable enough.  They are not carrying drugs by hand across 100 miles of desert where a wall could go.  Anywhere where a vehicle can cross the border, the US border patrol is already camped 24/7.  Trump's rhetoric about "unsecured borders" is laughable. 

But IMO the larger question is not whether a wall would be an effective deterrent, it's whether we want a deterrent at all.  Remember that the US population is shrinking Japan-style without immigration.  Our farmers and ranchers employ tens of thousand of illegal immigrants because they are willing to work for super low wages, and those low wages translate into lower costs for their goods.  Whole US industries absolutely depend on workers who are currently here illegally, but would much prefer to be allowed to work legally.   I'm in favor of getting them legalized.  Please, bring your family to America and then take a low-paying hard labor shitty job that white kids from the suburbs consider beneath them.  Milk cows for 40 years and raise your family in America, pay taxes and send your kids to school and contribute to the dynamic and growing powerhouse that is the US economy.  Like you, I also hope that your kids grow up and go to college and get married and make many more hard working little brown Americans.  This has always been how our country has prospered. 

Trump's rhetoric about immigration isn't about the economy, though.  It's about racial animus and the declining power of racism in America.  It's about mobilizing voters with inane fears about caravans.  It's a useful shtick, but he's not the least bit serious about addressing immigration reform in the same that congress has been trying to do for the past 30 years.  Like with every other "deal" we've seen from this administration, other adults will have to work out a compromise and then sell Trump on the finished product by convincing him it will play well with his base.  He doesn't have the background or the attention span to actually make a deal on this or any other contentious topic.

To answer your question on should we prevent people from coming, the answer is yes and no.  We definitely can not support every impoverished person in the world inside the US borders.  We (or at least I) also don't want people to come to be free loaders on the taxpayers.  I figure a reasonable amount of people who want to come here, work, pay taxes, and be a general benefit to society is a great thing and what made the US what it is.

Being in my limited world I see people coming to the US for free healthcare all the time.  People cross the border and go straight to the hospital to get medical care for some chronic condition and then become a liability on the tax payers.  I see women crossing over while pregnant in the hopes of delivering their baby on US soil.  Hey, if people want to come to the US legally, get properly vetted that they are not criminals and looking to be a productive member of society then sure let them in within a reasonable amount of people.  Again we can't let everyone in all at once as we don't have the resources/jobs for everyone.  After all immigrants is what made America Great.

Regarding the wall, I wonder if this is one of Trump's schemes to create a frenzy.  To push the democrats to give him what he really wants which isn't a wall but something else. It is within his repertoire of tricks and I don't think he cares if it affects thousands of government workers and their clients/employers.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 05, 2019, 04:06:15 PM
So how does this food stamps funding work? There are a bunch of stories about how it could be impacted in February, but very little indication on how the money actually gets distributed and accounted for. Will recipients get those benefits back later or are they gone if the agency can't top up the debit cards on the first of the month?

Essentially however congress wants them to work. If you look at what happens to furloughed employees, there is no rule requiring that they get back pay, but in the past congress has decided to pay them for furloughed time after the shutdown is over.

So the government could issue a special bonus/makeup food stamps allocations when the government reopens or it could just wait until the next month and issue that month's SNAP benefits as usual. In the 2013 shutdown I remember there was also talk about what might happen to food stamp benefits if it stretched out to a month or more, but it ended before it became an issue.

If the shutdown stretched to February (where food stamp payments will become an issue) we will be in completely uncharted territory. Right now the longest shutdown was less than a month (21 days). So we don't have any precedent of how it was handled in past shutdowns like we do for the backpay for federal employees.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Slow2FIRE on January 05, 2019, 06:00:13 PM
Shutdown stories:

1 person in our group wants Trump to get the $5 billion - its just peanuts.  I offered that it seems more reasonable to get one person (POTUS) to agree to sign a bill and negotiate for wall funding later than to expect many more people (senators and representatives) to come to an agreement for giving the $5 billion.

1 person, against my advice (he DID ask me specifically to provide advice) purchased a home that is around 5x his income and is now deeply worried about making a mortgage payment since he wiped out his Emergency fund to purchase the house and has less than one month of bills saved up.

My spouse and I are not too worried at this time (with the expectation of back pay).  3 or more months, or any amount of time without any back pay will really suck.  I don't expect the shutdown to last that long...but I'd really love for our agency to run out of funding and get furloughed for a week or two and then get back pay.  That would be an amazing free vacation!
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Peachtea on January 05, 2019, 07:03:26 PM
1 person in our group wants Trump to get the $5 billion - its just peanuts.

Peanuts! That’s over 200x the annual budget of my agency.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 05, 2019, 07:36:21 PM
In my fantasy world, a shutdown-ending compromise is easy to find. 

Everyone can declare victory with the right compromise solution.  Just give Trump his $5billion for "border security" with a specific fractional allocation of that amount to go toward more fencing and steel slats with spikes on top, and pair it with a similar number of dollars for expanded capacity in immigration courts, labor law enforcement, and increasing legal immigration quotas.  Trade off some policy provisions, like include both a DACA fix and new deportation policy for criminal immigrants.  This shouldn't be hard. 

They can sit down and negotiate over the dollars, like maybe congressional democrats won't give him the full $5billion unless they get $20billion for expanding legal immigration, like immigration courts and citizenship programs to incorporate these people into the American landscape.  Maybe they need to make an uneven policy provision trade, like they can't sign off on building a big scary wall unless Trump signs off a free pass for all of the DACA kids, ends family separation, and grants seasonal green cards to anyone who asks.  Fine!  Surely there is some price they would accept, in order to give him his $5b.  Trump is so stuck on that figure, he'll give up the farm to get it.

Because right now, it's the $5b that is the sticking point.  I think democrats should just give it to him, with conditions on how it's spent, in exchange for the things that they want.  It's just a matter of how many of those things they need to see included to make it a "fair" trade.

Democrats don't really care about the wall.  A wall won't have a significant impact on immigration rates anyway, and at this point it's just a symbol of racism that the President of the United States has turned into his own personal Moby Dick.  Yes, it's a stupid waste of money, but I think it's clear that neither party gives a rat's ass about the deficit right now.  Just give him his money, and get as much or more to go along with it to actually fix our immigration system by letting people come work here legally.  Trump could truthfully declare victory on getting some wall built, and democrats could truthfully say they finally got real immigration reform passed and all they had to give up was a stupid and ineffective wall that doesn't do anything anyway. 

It's like negotiating with a toddler who won't take a bath unless he gets to play with a spoon in the tub.  Fine, just give him the spoon and then tell him he's being a very good boy for being cooperative about bath time. You haven't really lost anything, and you've achieved your real goal with minimal compromise.  You both get to feel like you've won, because the toddler is stupid and doesn't know any better.

Peanuts! That’s over 200x the annual budget of my agency.

Don't worry, it's not real money.  That $5b would fund entire agencies, but is a drop in the bucket compared to our current military spending.  The DoD gets almost $700 billion per year, and they could completely fund the $5b for border security and a matching $5b for immigration reform by just giving the US military the same pay raise the US civil service is getting next year: zero.  The savings from that one step alone would resolve this little squabble, if it was just about finding $5billion for each side without adding to the deficit.


Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: ROF Expat on January 06, 2019, 03:21:47 AM
For example, federal employees pay biweekly insurance premiums.  When they don't get paid, their premiums aren't paid and their policies can technically lapse.  Are insurers required to provide free health insurance to millions of people? 
I get your general point, but surely this isn't actually a problem, right? I assume the government, like many megacorps, doesn't actually pay premiums to insurance companies, they just pay them a fee for administering claims and retain the liability for itself.

The government pays insurance premiums to insurance companies for employee health benefits just like any other employer that provides insurance, so if employees and/or government aren't making their contribution, it is a fair question as to whether (or how long) the insurer will provide services. 

You might be thinking of the fact that the U.S. Government "self insures" itself for its own liabilities.  For example, there's no insurance policy for government-owned cars. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 06, 2019, 05:17:41 AM

I can give you a list of 50 different parts of the US government that are currently trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.  There is not guide book.  There is no law or precedent for how to deal with a shutdown that lasts more than a few days.  The whole idea that Trump could keep the government "closed" for "years" is insane.

Congress could end this tomorrow with a 2/3 vote of both houses.

Not likely, but they do have that power.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 06, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
The shutdown could go on for months or even all year.  I'm curious to know how much the shutdown is saving per day in contract services not rendered (which will not be paid later since they were never rendered).  When does that savings reach $5B?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: alcon835 on January 06, 2019, 08:06:41 AM
Quote
The shutdown could go on for months or even all year.  I'm curious to know how much the shutdown is saving per day in contract services not rendered (which will not be paid later since they were never rendered).  When does that savings reach $5B?

The shutdown is saving $0. The reason being, the government is not actually shut down. Instead, only a very small slice of the government's activities are not being actively funded. These things are very public - which is the point. People will freak out because folks like the military are not being paid. That's the point of a government shutdown: only take away the services most people will notice.

Additionally, the new budget would not be for new expenses, but those expenses the government has already agreed to pay (mostly through loans, but also through salaries). The government has already said it would pay for these things, it's just not releasing the funds in an effort to gain political leverage. This is also why both the Democrats and Republicans are constantly screaming about how it is the other's fault. One or both of them will gain some sort of political victory from this without meaningfully impacting the nation (yes, some individuals will be severely impacted...but when has that mattered to politicians?)

Therefore, we're not actually saving any money during the shutdown - if anything we're loosing more due to interest on loans previously made that are not getting paid.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 06, 2019, 08:11:01 AM
DH is DoD so still working, but friends working for guvmint were supposed to move today, as in move household items, leave home. Did not because they could not get guidance on what was funded. Fun times!


We just got guidance for this.  House hunting is a NO, moving to a new place is a go.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 06, 2019, 08:19:31 AM
So if the government or parts were to shutdown for 3 months, 6 months or a year what would happen to the employees and their jobs?

Would they eventually be let go or their jobs eliminated? Would their jobs still be there for them when their agency is funded eventually?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 06, 2019, 08:27:53 AM

I can give you a list of 50 different parts of the US government that are currently trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.  There is not guide book.  There is no law or precedent for how to deal with a shutdown that lasts more than a few days.  The whole idea that Trump could keep the government "closed" for "years" is insane.

Congress could end this tomorrow with a 2/3 vote of both houses.

Not likely, but they do have that power.


Technically they'd have to wait until the president actually vetoes the bill to enact the legislation over his objections, and he has ten days (Sundays excluded) to decide whether or not to do so. They could get the ball rolling today by passing a bill from both houses, but would have to wait as much as another 11 days to actually end the shutdown unilaterally.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 06, 2019, 08:29:24 AM
I'm not exactly sure what will happen if there is an extended shut down.  And honestly I don't know at what point I'd say "f" it and just stop going to work if I wan't getting a paycheck.  (I'm exempt so I go to work but don't get paid.  I do know it will kill travel in the US because at some point with TSA the will stop working.  You can only go so far on a $35,000 income when not getting paid if you had not built up a stach.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 06, 2019, 08:34:07 AM
The shutdown could go on for months or even all year.  I'm curious to know how much the shutdown is saving per day in contract services not rendered (which will not be paid later since they were never rendered).  When does that savings reach $5B?

An analysis by Standard and Poor suggests decreased economic activity resulting from the shutdown is likely about $6.5 billion per week.* The USA has a GDP to tax ratio of 27.1%, so we can hand wave that each week the shutdown goes on, total federal tax revenue for the year is declining by about $1.75B. There are also second order effects. For example the IRS actually generates money for the government through catching tax filing errors or fraud but 90% of their staff are not working including tax auditors. IRS tax enforcement brought in $56 billion in extra revenue in 2017** so for the sake of nice round numbers let's call that $1 billion in lost revenue per week.

So back of the envelope, each week of shutdown means $2.75 billion less revenue and $2.75 billion more in deficit spending. So in less than the two weeks the government has already been shut down more new federal deficit/debt as been added than building a $5B wall. Quite the opposite of savings.

*Source: https://www.spglobal.com/en/research-insights/articles/With-A-US-Government-Shutdown-There-Will-Be-Blood

**Source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/09/18/irs-tax-agency-still-bringing-big-bucks-despite-cutbacks/1345350002/
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 06, 2019, 08:34:33 AM
I'm not exactly sure what will happen if there is an extended shut down.  And honestly I don't know at what point I'd say "f" it and just stop going to work if I wan't getting a paycheck.  (I'm exempt so I go to work but don't get paid.  I do know it will kill travel in the US because at some point with TSA the will stop working.  You can only go so far on a $35,000 income when not getting paid if you had not built up a stach.

It's going to kill international travel to/from the US as well.  I'm supposed to fly to the US this month and am now glad I have 4 hours to get through security.  I wonder what happens if I get to my destination but there is no TSA when it is time to leave.  If I were just booking now I would not be booking at all.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 06, 2019, 09:11:07 AM
Technically they'd have to wait until the president actually vetoes the bill to enact the legislation over his objections, and he has ten days (Sundays excluded) to decide whether or not to do so. They could get the ball rolling today by passing a bill from both houses, but would have to wait as much as another 11 days to actually end the shutdown unilaterally.

This is one route to ending the shutdown that I had not considered.  Congress should already have the votes to end the shutdown over a veto, since both houses have passed the same bill by more than the required 2/3 majorities, so there's no need to negotiate any further at all.  I've been focused on what a compromise would have to look like, but you're right that no compromise is necessary at all.

The problem with this solution is that it requires Mitch McConnell to allow the Senate to vote again, and he has declared that he won't allow the Senate to consider any bill that trump will veto regardless of what the senators want.  So really, that makes it McConnell who is holding government hostage, by ceding congressional authority to trump who wants it held hostage.

This makes a mockery of the entire notion of representative government.  If more than 2/3 of our elected representatives in both houses want something, it's not supposed to matter what the president wants.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 06, 2019, 09:18:36 AM
Technically they'd have to wait until the president actually vetoes the bill to enact the legislation over his objections, and he has ten days (Sundays excluded) to decide whether or not to do so. They could get the ball rolling today by passing a bill from both houses, but would have to wait as much as another 11 days to actually end the shutdown unilaterally.

This is one route to ending the shutdown that I had not considered.  Congress should already have the votes to end the shutdown over a veto, since both houses have passed the same bill by more than the required 2/3 majorities, so there's no need to negotiate any further at all.  I've been focused on what a compromise would have to look like, but you're right that no compromise is necessary at all.

The problem with this solution is that it requires Mitch McConnell to allow the Senate to vote again, and he has declared that he won't poss any bill that trump will veto regardless of what the senators want.  So really, that makes it McConnell who is holding government hostage, by ceding congressional authority to trump who wants it held hostage.

This makes a mockery of the entire notion of representative government.  If more than 2/3 of our ejected representatives in both houses want something, it's not supposed to matter what the president wants.

Surely the Senate has some procedure that would allow a supermajority to force a vote on a bill over the leader's objections, right?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 06, 2019, 09:26:47 AM
Surely the Senate has some procedure that would allow a supermajority to force a vote on a bill over the leader's objections, right?

I believe that they do, though I'm fuzzy on the details.

I also don't think it matters, because McConnell can just refuse to convene the senate at all.  None of the usual procedural shenanigans can be deployed if he just keeps the senate adjourned.  During the last session, there was some quick news story about a senator who tried to force a vote on the House bill and McConnell just refused to recognize him, letting him shout while just talking right over him, and then he adjourned the session after a total of four minutes instead of dealing with it.

edit:  My partner, who is very astute, believes that this sort of situation is the inevitable consequence of political party affiliations.  McConnell has subjugated the will of the Congress to protect the individual of the Executive, because he's from the same party as the Executive.  He won't allow Congress to jam Trump up like that, making him look bad by overriding a veto even if it was 100% unanimous in both houses, because he serves the republican party first and foremost, and his branch of government second.  Her argument is that party affiliation has completely overwritten the inter-branch power balances laid out in the constitution, and that all of that hard work our framers did in structuring our three co-equal branches is irrelevant because political parties have effectively created a winner-take-all 50% majority situation in which 1 senator with 49 party members behind him controls the entire US government for the purpose of protecting their party.  What the people want doesn't matter.  What's best for country doesn't matter.  These 50 senators elect a majority leader who sets the agenda for everything, and right now their agenda is to literally CLOSE DOWN THE UNITED STATES rather than do their jobs.

I suspect history will not be kind to old Mitch.  He's spent two years letting his party affiliation interfere with a series of badly needed criminal investigations, and now he's usurped the Constitution in support of racism.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on January 06, 2019, 09:50:28 AM
So if the government or parts were to shutdown for 3 months, 6 months or a year what would happen to the employees and their jobs?

Would they eventually be let go or their jobs eliminated? Would their jobs still be there for them when their agency is funded eventually?

I ran into a couple co-workers at Lowe's yesterday - we're all catching up on house projects - and they said that a fair number of people are getting called back.  The work each position does becomes more essential as time goes on, or there are time-sensitivities.  For example, post-fire restoration work has to happen this time of year.  Lots of money has been spent on seeds that need to go in the ground before spring.  A lot of money is already invested, and in some cases, it's a safety issue to rehab the burned area and institute erosion-prevention measures.

HR people who are furloughed would need to come back to process seasonal firefighters.  It's not like the government just won't fight wildfires this year because no one is around to hire firefighters and support staff.  That is another example. And of course those seasonals are not going to come in and work for no pay.  At some point, the "shutdown" is meaningless as more positions become essential.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: RetiredAt63 on January 06, 2019, 10:01:29 AM
@sol, this takeover by party and merging of legislative and executive function is not unique to the US.  I read a book on the development of the Canadian system, and early in our history an MP who was nominated to Cabinet would resign, a by-election would be called in his riding, and he would ask his constituents if they wanted a representative who would be serving 2 masters - his role as legislator and his role as part of the executive.  Now it is a big deal to be in cabinet, resigning to ask your constituents what they think of it would be ludicrous.

We don't have budget crises like you do simply because of 2 things - 1 the PM whose  party has a majority is in effect a dictator*, he has the House of Commons on his side (and yes that is a scary thought), but 2 a finance bill failing is "loss of confidence" and requires an election.  So PMs tend to be fairly cautious about finance bills.

*You can find examples of unpopular legislation passed by any government, but the last HarperTM government, where he finally got a majority of seats (not overall votes), was particularly bad for this.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 06, 2019, 10:11:21 AM
horsepoor, are people being called back with pay? Or going from not-working without pay to working without pay?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on January 06, 2019, 10:16:19 AM
Mitch McConnell is a truly disgusting person, but I suspect that even though the Senate has previously passed bills to keep the gov't running when Trump wasn't having a tantrum, McConnell might not be able to find 18 or so GOP senators willing to explicitly and directly defy Trump now, even if he decided to bring a bill to the floor.  But that might change as the consequences for business, travel, etc start to mount up. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 06, 2019, 12:07:25 PM
McConnell might not be able to find 18 or so GOP senators willing to explicitly and directly defy Trump now, even if he decided to bring a bill to the floor. 

Even if that's true, it's true for the same reason that McConnell is doing it.  If 18 of the have collectively decided to put the goal of advancing the power of the republican party over their duty to the country or to their office, they are just as guilty as he is. 

Is that really all it takes to subvert the constitution?  18 power hungry senators with a hard-on for racism?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 06, 2019, 12:37:02 PM

I can give you a list of 50 different parts of the US government that are currently trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.  There is not guide book.  There is no law or precedent for how to deal with a shutdown that lasts more than a few days.  The whole idea that Trump could keep the government "closed" for "years" is insane.

Congress could end this tomorrow with a 2/3 vote of both houses.

Not likely, but they do have that power.


Technically they'd have to wait until the president actually vetoes the bill to enact the legislation over his objections, and he has ten days (Sundays excluded) to decide whether or not to do so. They could get the ball rolling today by passing a bill from both houses, but would have to wait as much as another 11 days to actually end the shutdown unilaterally.

Ah, I had thought there was already something sent - but now I realize that was the last Congress and everything is reset.

So, yes.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 06, 2019, 12:42:46 PM
Technically they'd have to wait until the president actually vetoes the bill to enact the legislation over his objections, and he has ten days (Sundays excluded) to decide whether or not to do so. They could get the ball rolling today by passing a bill from both houses, but would have to wait as much as another 11 days to actually end the shutdown unilaterally.

This is one route to ending the shutdown that I had not considered.  Congress should already have the votes to end the shutdown over a veto, since both houses have passed the same bill by more than the required 2/3 majorities, so there's no need to negotiate any further at all.  I've been focused on what a compromise would have to look like, but you're right that no compromise is necessary at all.

The problem with this solution is that it requires Mitch McConnell to allow the Senate to vote again, and he has declared that he won't allow the Senate to consider any bill that trump will veto regardless of what the senators want.  So really, that makes it McConnell who is holding government hostage, by ceding congressional authority to trump who wants it held hostage.

This makes a mockery of the entire notion of representative government.  If more than 2/3 of our ejected representatives in both houses want something, it's not supposed to matter what the president wants.

If 2/3 of the Senate really wants to, they should be able to unseat Mitch as majority leader as well. The mechanism is pretty deep into the weeds of Senate procedure and rules - but there has to be a usable mechanism to do so.

Time for some Senators to consult with the Parliamentarian.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 06, 2019, 12:53:58 PM
It we're really getting into the weeds though, constitutionally Mike Pence is the president of the senate, and the only reason Mitch McConnell has any power is that Pence delegates to the president pro tempore of the senate (currently Charles Grassley R-IA/Twitter) who in turn delegates to the majority leader.

So if we were to go full nuclear constitutional crisis, my understanding is that Pence could camp out in the senate and prevent anyone else from running things. However this is obviously not my area of expertise, so I'd welcome corrections from people who know more.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 06, 2019, 01:45:35 PM
Wife took a job with the government in August so this is her first shutdown and being furloughed has been stressful for her.

She actually teared up a little the other night when she read an article that said that it could be down for 6 months or even a year.

She loves her job and has no idea what will happen if they stay shutdown that long.

We have an emergency fund but are trying not to touch it. We are trying to use all of the food in our house and making some pretty interesting meals LOL.

2 weeks into it now we have used all of our meat  and are getting low on some food items so I emptied our change jug $162 in nickels, dimes and pennies $285 in dollar coins / quarters.

Everything other than the quarters and dollar coins went to coinstar and was exchanged for a Walmart gift card for no fee. The quarters and dollar coins will be used to buy other items as we need them.

Also went through our gift card stache and found a $75 whole foods gift card, $150 capitol grill, $25 Carrabba's, $25 chilli's, $100 Root Down, $50 JC penny and $50 in harbor freight.

So still have not touched the emergency fund and are living off one income, putting away $900 in my pre-tax 401k every 2 weeks.

If she gets back pay everything will still be on track for this year if not our savings will be reduced for the year.

Probably save the restaurant gift cards for trips that we have planned in Jan, Feb and March to keep the cost of the trips down.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190106/167602873a5cfcd70a0412cfde6c7311.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190106/30fc7722c179afe71b8eceac58fc6c9d.jpg)

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on January 06, 2019, 02:00:32 PM
horsepoor, are people being called back with pay? Or going from not-working without pay to working without pay?

I didn't get into it, but I would be shocked if they are being paid - they are in essence being switched over to the "essential" category that TSA, Coast Guard, etc. is in.  The only advantage over staying on furlough is better guarantee of getting back pay.

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 06, 2019, 02:22:03 PM
It we're really getting into the weeds though, constitutionally Mike Pence is the president of the senate, and the only reason Mitch McConnell has any power is that Pence delegates to the president pro tempore of the senate (currently Charles Grassley R-IA/Twitter) who in turn delegates to the majority leader.

So if we were to go full nuclear constitutional crisis, my understanding is that Pence could camp out in the senate and prevent anyone else from running things. However this is obviously not my area of expertise, so I'd welcome corrections from people who know more.

In most systems, there is a mechanism for a majority (typically supermajority) to override/overrule the chair of the body. For example, any member may "Appeal to the Assembly" regarding the rule of the Chair.

https://www.senate.gov/reference/glossary_term/appeal.htm

No idea how the Senate rules handle a chair refusing to do anything.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: frugalecon on January 06, 2019, 03:28:18 PM
horsepoor, are people being called back with pay? Or going from not-working without pay to working without pay?

I didn't get into it, but I would be shocked if they are being paid - they are in essence being switched over to the "essential" category that TSA, Coast Guard, etc. is in.  The only advantage over staying on furlough is better guarantee of getting back pay.

People who are called back in (converted to “excepted”) will not be paid until there is an appropriation. This will likely happen to me at some point in the next week or so, for limited work on a specific project.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: LaineyAZ on January 06, 2019, 03:50:10 PM
Related to the shutdown:  a national conference of student veterans in FL was looking at empty job recruitment booths from federal departments because no one was there to represent the Fed gov't.  Luckily a bunch of private companies like Microsoft were in attendance. 

Although I understand and fully sympathize with federal workers caught in this mess, I like to hear about personal stories like this of citizens who are now being affected.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 06, 2019, 05:28:17 PM
So we were out buying supplies to make chicken soup and other grocery items and getting pretty hungry and decided to stop in a sub shop on our way home and split a sandwich.

Wife ordered and paid in quarters and while explaining / apologizing for paying in quarters the manager said he understands and that he used to work as a fire fighter for the government and understands and offered her a job starting tomorrow.

She explained that she would not be able to give him a proper notice and would have to leave when the government started back up.

Again he said no problem and that he would just be happy to have someone that would show up on time even if for a few days.

The kindness of the manager boosted her spirits and she was pretty excited to have something new to do so today turned out to be a good day.

While it does not pay much it will take her mind off the shutdown and lift her spirits to have a place to go during the day.

Manager would probably have a good laugh looking at her resume listing all of her patents, inventions and publications :)


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 06, 2019, 06:36:19 PM
Shutdown stories:

1 person in our group wants Trump to get the $5 billion - its just peanuts.

Yeah, there's a greater loss by the government continuing the shutdown than the cost of the wall.  Some people have made comments about Mexico paying for it.  Well, anyone could pay the $0 for the wall because the wall pays for itself because of all the money saved that would have been spent due to illegals crossing the border.  The democrats need to get with the program.

Quote
My spouse and I are not too worried at this time (with the expectation of back pay).  3 or more months, or any amount of time without any back pay will really suck.  I don't expect the shutdown to last that long...but I'd really love for our agency to run out of funding and get furloughed for a week or two and then get back pay.  That would be an amazing free vacation!

That sounds like a federal worker friend of mine who is happy to get free extra vacation, knowing the pay will roll around later.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 06, 2019, 06:45:00 PM
I did not say that Americans are ignorant, racist, xenophobic rubes, in facts I said that most Americans are not. 

It's DreamFIRE who tried to suggest that this was most of us.

Sol, that is lie.  I NEVER ever stated in any post that I ever thought most Americans were racists, ignorant, or xenophobic.  In fact, I didn't even mention any of those words in any of my post.  Further more, I do not believe there are many racists Americans, although people like yourself like to redefine it in your own eyes as a form of name-calling for anyone who doesn't agree with your liberal ideas.

I would never have brought up racism in this thread because it has nothing to do with the federal shutdown or border security.  However, I am not surprised by the left resorting to the usual name-calling and talking points when anyone states an opposing view.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 06, 2019, 06:52:17 PM
I'm happy to hear your wife's good news the_fixer and I could share the laugh imagining a resume like that being turned in to apply to work for a sandwich shop.

Given the incredibly tight labor market in many parts of the country, I wonder how many furloughed employees have pursued similar ways to stay busy and out of the house, or may if this continues much longer.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 06, 2019, 06:56:06 PM
the wall pays for itself

Hah!  Good one, DF.

(You do know that a wall is totally ineffective at slowing illegal immigration, right?)

Sol, that is lie.  I NEVER ever stated in any post that I ever thought most Americans were racists, ignorant, or xenophobic. 

Neither did I.  I said that American who still want a useless wall as symbol are racist, ignorant, and xenophobic.  And you said that most Americans want a wall.  They do not, as I'm sure you're aware.  source:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/06/27/what-do-americans-think-about-the-wall-the-answers-may-surprise-you-only-if-you-read-drudge/

In fact, it looks like fewer Americans want a wall than actually voted for Trump.  Apparently, even his own supporters don't want a wall.

Quote
I would never have brought up racism in this thread because it has nothing to do with the federal shutdown or border security. 

Racism has EVERYTHING to do with the wall.  It's the only reason the whole idea of the wall exists.  I too want to secure our southern border, but a wall is a stupidly ineffective way to do that.  The only utility in a wall is as a counterpoint to the Statue of Liberty, as an art piece that says "America hates immigrants".  It won't actually do anything.  It's a waste of money.  It's only popular among people who fear the invading hordes of brown people will somehow harm our country, instead of help it like they always have.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 06, 2019, 07:28:05 PM
the wall pays for itself

(You do know that a wall is totally ineffective at slowing illegal immigration, right?)

I know that you "think" that or are trying to get us to "believe that you think" that because you actually support open borders like so many on the left do because it ultimately leads to more votes.  However, if you understood the issue, you couldn't say that with a straight face, just like the head of border security stated.  Even liberal politicians like Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton have supported it.  You're not suggesting they are xenophobic racists are you?

My support of the wall predates the election of Trump.  This is something I've followed closely even before Obama was president.  I'm not a Trump supporter and oppose him on the ACA, for example.  I'm a free thinker and come to my own conclusions based on facts, not what a single party or the media tells me to think like so many others do.

Quote
Racism has EVERYTHING to do with the wall. 

Racism has NOTHING to do with the wall.  The wall knows no race, color, religion, sex.... it's there to secure our border against ANYONE unlawfully passing, just as the other deterrents.  If I don't let you past a checkpoint because you're an illegal, that's no different.  It's not about your race.  The way you talk, you would think that you don't have a door on your house or that you leave it unlocked so that people can come and go as they please, because to have a door and lock it would mean you were racist.  It's ridiculous.  I bet that is not the case.  I don't care how good your alarm system is and whether you sleep with one eye open to catch someone sneaking in, I bet you would still have a door and lock it.

The wall pays for itself.   See:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

Worth a full read, but here's one passage:

Quote
A 2006 Congressional Research Service analysis of the southern border found that a fence in the San Diego sector, combined with an increase in agents and other resources, caused apprehensions in the sector to decline by 76 percent over a 12-year period from 1992 to 2004. In El Paso, a two-story corrugated metal fence first erected under the Bush administration reduced illegal border crossings in the area by 89 percent from 2006 to 2012, reports the New York Post.

What I see common between your posts and many of the comments from liberals is that the wall won't stop all illegal immigration by itself.   That's a straw man argument, because no one ever suggested building a wall and eliminating all of the other mechanisms in place.  In fact, it takes a multi-faceted approach to dealing with the problem, and these other methods need implemented and/or stepped up as well, in combination with the wall, which still is peanuts compared to doing nothing:

https://www.numbersusa.com/solutions

The wall is just one important one that will pay for itself and is peanuts compared to the long term costs of illegal immigration.

6 Trillion Dollar Cost of Illegal Immigration (older article, probably closer to 10 Trillion today)

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer
https://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/may-6-2013/heritage-amnesty-will-cost-us-taxpayers-63-trillion.html

.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 06, 2019, 07:38:23 PM
You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.

Your taxes do not support federal pensions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2017/03/14/3-5-trillion-taxpayer-liability-housed-inside-a-cave-let-the-sun-shine-on-federal-pensions/

Quote
What has a $3.5 trillion unfunded liability, manually calculated on paper inside a Pennsylvania mountain, and costs taxpayers more money annually than the entire state budget of Florida? Answer: Federal employee pensions.

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Slow2FIRE on January 06, 2019, 07:51:48 PM
Quote
My spouse and I are not too worried at this time (with the expectation of back pay).  3 or more months, or any amount of time without any back pay will really suck.  I don't expect the shutdown to last that long...but I'd really love for our agency to run out of funding and get furloughed for a week or two and then get back pay.  That would be an amazing free vacation!

That sounds like a federal worker friend of mine who is happy to get free extra vacation, knowing the pay will roll around later.
 

Mostly anonymous message board -> therefore, I am going to give my honest feelings.  If politicians throw temper tantrums and I get a free vacation, I'm happy for the free time. If I am essentially "out of work" without pay for that period, I am going to complain.  I'm not going to try to pretend I'm some magnanimous self sacrificing person that abhors the idea of getting a paid vacation.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 06, 2019, 07:55:44 PM
Quote
My spouse and I are not too worried at this time (with the expectation of back pay).  3 or more months, or any amount of time without any back pay will really suck.  I don't expect the shutdown to last that long...but I'd really love for our agency to run out of funding and get furloughed for a week or two and then get back pay.  That would be an amazing free vacation!

That sounds like a federal worker friend of mine who is happy to get free extra vacation, knowing the pay will roll around later.
 

Mostly anonymous message board -> therefore, I am going to give my honest feelings.  If politicians throw temper tantrums and I get a free vacation, I'm happy for the free time. If I am essentially "out of work" without pay for that period, I am going to complain.  I'm not going to try to pretend I'm some magnanimous self sacrificing person that abhors the idea of getting a paid vacation.

Yeah, I get it.  If my company would give me extra paid vacation, I wouldn't complain, either.  Of course, that would never happen in my line of work in the private sector.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sixwings on January 06, 2019, 08:02:57 PM
You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.

Your taxes do not support federal pensions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2017/03/14/3-5-trillion-taxpayer-liability-housed-inside-a-cave-let-the-sun-shine-on-federal-pensions/

Quote
What has a $3.5 trillion unfunded liability, manually calculated on paper inside a Pennsylvania mountain, and costs taxpayers more money annually than the entire state budget of Florida? Answer: Federal employee pensions.

yep, really rich people got huge tax cuts and you're moaning about middle class pensions. Your anger is definitely targeting the right group.  We should be cutting taxes for really rich people and cutting pensions of some middle class fed employees. The rich need it more.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 06, 2019, 08:03:25 PM
Worth noting with DreamFire's latest link: the URL is a "forbes.com/sites/" which is a service where forbes hosts non-editorially reviewed blogs by near random folks, and information hosted at /sites/ should not be attributed to the magazine itself.

You folks could probably tell this from the tone of the actual article if you clicked through, but in case anyone just saw the link and lent it credibility based solely on the connection to an actual news organization of some type.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sixwings on January 06, 2019, 08:06:20 PM
the wall pays for itself

(You do know that a wall is totally ineffective at slowing illegal immigration, right?)

I know that you "think" that or are trying to get us to "believe that you think" that because you actually support open borders like so many on the left do because it ultimately leads to more votes.  However, if you understood the issue, you couldn't say that with a straight face, just like the head of border security stated.  Even liberal politicians like Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton have supported it.  You're not suggesting they are xenophobic racists are you?

My support of the wall predates the election of Trump.  This is something I've followed closely even before Obama was president.  I'm not a Trump supporter and oppose him on the ACA, for example.  I'm a free thinker and come to my own conclusions based on facts, not what a single party or the media tells me to think like so many others do.

Quote
Racism has EVERYTHING to do with the wall. 

Racism has NOTHING to do with the wall.  The wall knows no race, color, religion, sex.... it's there to secure our border against ANYONE unlawfully passing, just as the other deterrents.  If I don't let you past a checkpoint because you're an illegal, that's no different.  It's not about your race.  The way you talk, you would think that you don't have a door on your house or that you leave it unlocked so that people can come and go as they please, because to have a door and lock it would mean you were racist.  It's ridiculous.  I bet that is not the case.  I don't care how good your alarm system is and whether you sleep with one eye open to catch someone sneaking in, I bet you would still have a door and lock it.

The wall pays for itself.   See:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

Worth a full read, but here's one passage:

Quote
A 2006 Congressional Research Service analysis of the southern border found that a fence in the San Diego sector, combined with an increase in agents and other resources, caused apprehensions in the sector to decline by 76 percent over a 12-year period from 1992 to 2004. In El Paso, a two-story corrugated metal fence first erected under the Bush administration reduced illegal border crossings in the area by 89 percent from 2006 to 2012, reports the New York Post.

What I see common between your posts and many of the comments from liberals is that the wall won't stop all illegal immigration by itself.   That's a straw man argument, because no one ever suggested building a wall and eliminating all of the other mechanisms in place.  In fact, it takes a multi-faceted approach to dealing with the problem, and these other methods need implemented and/or stepped up as well, in combination with the wall, which still is peanuts compared to doing nothing:

https://www.numbersusa.com/solutions

The wall is just one important one that will pay for itself and is peanuts compared to the long term costs of illegal immigration.

6 Trillion Dollar Cost of Illegal Immigration (older article, probably closer to 10 Trillion today)

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer
https://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/may-6-2013/heritage-amnesty-will-cost-us-taxpayers-63-trillion.html

.

So i'm curious, where do you want the wall to go and how much more effective will it be than the barriers that are currently in place? Like what's the cost/benefit? Also I'm not going to look at the heritage foundation stuff, but does their cost of illegal immigration break it down by method of illegal immigration? Like what's the cost of illegal immigration over the southern border vs. visa overstays? Why is the focus on the southern border and not oceans, visas etc?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 06, 2019, 08:53:15 PM
You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.

Your taxes do not support federal pensions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2017/03/14/3-5-trillion-taxpayer-liability-housed-inside-a-cave-let-the-sun-shine-on-federal-pensions/

Quote
What has a $3.5 trillion unfunded liability, manually calculated on paper inside a Pennsylvania mountain, and costs taxpayers more money annually than the entire state budget of Florida? Answer: Federal employee pensions.

yep, really rich people got huge tax cuts and you're moaning about middle class pensions. Your anger is definitely targeting the right group.  We should be cutting taxes for really rich people and cutting pensions of some middle class fed employees. The rich need it more.

Just curious, but why do you think cutting pensions for fed employees will result in tax cuts for the rich.  Is it possible to reduce the cost of both liberal and conservative spending so that we can eliminate the deficit and start to decrease our debt? 

There are two things that scare me about the US today.  The rising cost of healthcare and the national debt to GDP ratio.  Personally I'm all for cutting down government spending on military, foreign aid, aid to illegal residents, cleaning up disability and medicaid for the people who actually need it, illuminate the war on drugs, free all incarcerated non violent drug offenders, etc.... All for the hope of decreasing our national debt.

If this so called wall decreases illegal immigration a few percent, and even more so with legitimate immigration reform. I guess it would pay for itself in the long run by decreasing spending elsewhere.  If this is really true I am definitely for this wall, and not because I am racist, but because I am against illegal immigration and all unproductive wasteful spending.  If this wall does nothing then I agree no need for the wall.  I personally am still not sold on a benefit of a wall vs a large chain fence like the one built on 2011.

Racism has EVERYTHING to do with the wall.  It's the only reason the whole idea of the wall exists.  I too want to secure our southern border, but a wall is a stupidly ineffective way to do that.  The only utility in a wall is as a counterpoint to the Statue of Liberty, as an art piece that says "America hates immigrants".  It won't actually do anything.  It's a waste of money.  It's only popular among people who fear the invading hordes of brown people will somehow harm our country, instead of help it like they always have.

@sol, an American citizen can want something you don't and not be a racist xenophobe.  I know it is hard to believe, but it is really true. You would be surprised how many Americans of Mexican decent believe a wall is a good idea.  Are they racist as well?


.... Why is the focus on the southern border and not oceans, visas etc?


Right on, it should all be looked at and taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Basenji on January 06, 2019, 09:08:34 PM
The wall pays for itself.   See:
https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

Worth a full read, but here's one passage:

Quote
A 2006 Congressional Research Service analysis of the southern border found that a fence in the San Diego sector, combined with an increase in agents and other resources, caused apprehensions in the sector to decline by 76 percent over a 12-year period from 1992 to 2004. In El Paso, a two-story corrugated metal fence first erected under the Bush administration reduced illegal border crossings in the area by 89 percent from 2006 to 2012, reports the New York Post.

First, LOL citing The Daily Caller and LOL the Daily Caller citing someone from the Center for Immigration Studies. (CIS gets debunked constantly by actual scholars and CIS was founded by a nativist who wants to reduce immigration to protect whites-- no seriously, you are making sol's argument for him).

The article in the Caller doesn't cite an exact "CRS" report, so I had to futz about all CRS reports with that language and here's what a 2009 report said below. And the Daily Caller quotes one small extract without noting any of the many qualifiers regarding the data. CRS is basically saying, yes the wall worked in one area because Border Patrol really upped the manpower in that one area and because the border crossers just moved over to Arizona. And even if we build the whole wall, it will need to be manned as intensively as in Operation Gatekeeper (mucho $$$) and the wall will likely be tunneled under (which will cause another whole round of increased manpower, money, and technology required).

Congressional Research Service
Border Security: Barriers Along the U.S. International Border
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL33659.pdf
Quote
[Page 11]
The San Diego Fence and USBP Apprehensions
Apprehension statistics have long been used as a performance measure by the USBP. However, the number of apprehensions may be a misleading statistic for several reasons, including the data’s focus on events rather than people and the fact that there are no reliable estimates for how many aliens successfully evade capture. This makes it difficult to establish a firm correlation between the number of apprehensions in a given sector and the number of people attempting to enter through that sector. While caution should be taken when attempting to draw conclusions about the efficacy of policy initiatives based solely on apprehensions statistics, they remain the most reliable way to codify trends in illegal migration along the border.

The San Diego fence spans two border patrol stations within the San Diego sector: Imperial Beach station and Chula Vista station. As previously noted, the primary fence was constructed in those two stations beginning in FY1990; the secondary fence was constructed beginning in FY1996. Figure 1 shows the stark decrease in apprehensions at the Imperial Beach station from FY1992 to FY2004. The majority of the decrease occurred in the four year period from FY1995 through FY1998 and coincided with Operation Gatekeeper, which as previously noted combined the construction of fencing along the border with an increase in agents and other resources deployed directly along the border. 

[Page 26]
Effectiveness
Proponents of border fences point to the substantial reduction in apprehensions along the San Diego sector as tangible proof that fences succeed in reducing cross-border smuggling and migration where they are constructed. Opponents attribute part of the decrease in apprehensions to the increase in manpower and resources in the sector and, pointing to the increase in apprehensions in less-populated sectors, contend that the fence only succeeds in rerouting unauthorized migration and not in stopping it. The USBP, for its part, states that border fencing is a force multiplier because it allows its agents to focus enforcement actions in other areas. The USBP has also stated that the fencing constructed in urban areas has helped reroute unauthorized migration to less populated areas where its agents have a tactical advantage over border crossers. As previously noted, the number of USBP apprehensions in 2004 were almost identical to the number of apprehensions in 1992; the main difference is that San Diego accounted for the majority of apprehensions in 1992, whereas in 2004 Tucson and Yuma sectors accounted for the majority of apprehensions.

A possible issue for Congress concerns the overall effectiveness of border fencing, especially if it is not constructed across the entire border in question. In the limited urban areas where border fencing has been constructed, it has typically reduced apprehensions. However, there is also strong indication that the fencing, combined with added enforcement, has re-routed illegal immigrants to other less fortified areas of the border. Additionally, in the limited areas where fencing has been erected, there have been numerous breaches of the border fencing and a number of tunnels discovered crossing underneath the fencing. It stands to reason that even if border fencing is constructed over a significant portion of the land border, the incidences of fence breaches and underground tunnels would increase. Possible policy options to address these issues could include mandating that border fencing be highly tamper-resistant or directing CBP to invest in tunnel-detection technologies.

[p. 33]

Another unintended consequence of the border fencing has been the proliferation of tunnels dug underneath the border. In San Diego, where the double-layer Sandia fencing has been constructed, smugglers have dug numerous tunnels underneath the border fence. One such tunnel was almost a kilometer long and was built from reinforced concrete—evidence of a rather sophisticated smuggling operation.

In sum, building a wall only works if we also add a significant amount of manpower to support the wall and people will likely breach it anyway. Which will lead to more $$$ and manpower being needed to be added...the money will never stop being spent. It will be a black hole of spending that never ends.

ETA: ...spending that never ends to keep out people who do essential work for us. And no credible source claims to know exactly how much or if illegal immigration costs the U.S. It does affect border states yes (I can cite RAND Corp reports), due to school costs, but some studies show that nationally the benefit is positive (due to taxes paid). So, the wall won't pay for itself because it won't work and the numbers being thrown around about the "costs" of illegal immigration are highly debatable.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 06, 2019, 09:13:24 PM
If Congress really wanted to make illegal immigration go away, they'd make e-verify mandatory for employers of 500 employees in 2019, then 250 in 2020, then 100 in 2021, then 50, then 2.

It's all posturing.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 06, 2019, 09:18:30 PM
If Congress really wanted to make illegal immigration go away, they'd make e-verify mandatory for employers of 500 employees in 2019, then 250 in 2020, then 100 in 2021, then 50, then 2.

It's all posturing.

Yup, we need to make it so that coming to the US illegally is undesirable.  Then there would be no reason to come in the first place.  That should also include strict deportation policies and the elimination of all tax payed benefits to those without a legal reason to be in the US.  Then a wall would really be a stupid waste of money.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sixwings on January 06, 2019, 09:31:00 PM
If Congress really wanted to make illegal immigration go away, they'd make e-verify mandatory for employers of 500 employees in 2019, then 250 in 2020, then 100 in 2021, then 50, then 2.

It's all posturing.

but then who will trump hire?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 07, 2019, 08:17:50 AM
If Congress really wanted to make illegal immigration go away, they'd make e-verify mandatory for employers of 500 employees in 2019, then 250 in 2020, then 100 in 2021, then 50, then 2.

It's all posturing.

Yup, we need to make it so that coming to the US illegally is undesirable.

I know! Let's make it easy enough for good, hard-working people to immigrate legally that nobody would even think about crossing illegally unless they were smuggling something.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 07, 2019, 08:39:21 AM
If Congress really wanted to make illegal immigration go away, they'd make e-verify mandatory for employers of 500 employees in 2019, then 250 in 2020, then 100 in 2021, then 50, then 2.

It's all posturing.

Don't be silly, that would drastically cut illegal immigration and cost far less than $5billion. 

Trump doesn't actually want to reduce illegal immigration, because it's republican-owned business like farms and dairies that mostly depend on immigrant labor.  Building a wall has nothing to do with securing the border, because it won't.  As we've previously discussed, anyone can come to America on a tourist visa and cross legally, and then just overstay their visa.  Physically getting into the USA is always going to be the easy part.

Building a wall won't secure the border, but it will be a big visible symbol of nativism and racial hatred.  It will be a Statue of anti-Liberty, a giant art piece with a symbolic meaning that far outweighs its physical size.  If Trump was serious about fixing illegal immigration, he would not be focused on the wall at all.  But he's much more focused on appealing to the latent racism of his base supporters than he is on actually fixing this problem, hence the laserlike focus on a totally ineffective solution that makes racists stand up and cheer.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 07, 2019, 08:47:10 AM
Wife took a job with the government in August so this is her first shutdown and being furloughed has been stressful for her.

She actually teared up a little the other night when she read an article that said that it could be down for 6 months or even a year.

She loves her job and has no idea what will happen if they stay shutdown that long.

We have an emergency fund but are trying not to touch it. We are trying to use all of the food in our house and making some pretty interesting meals LOL.

2 weeks into it now we have used all of our meat  and are getting low on some food items so I emptied our change jug $162 in nickels, dimes and pennies $285 in dollar coins / quarters.

Everything other than the quarters and dollar coins went to coinstar and was exchanged for a Walmart gift card for no fee. The quarters and dollar coins will be used to buy other items as we need them.

Also went through our gift card stache and found a $75 whole foods gift card, $150 capitol grill, $25 Carrabba's, $25 chilli's, $100 Root Down, $50 JC penny and $50 in harbor freight.

So still have not touched the emergency fund and are living off one income, putting away $900 in my pre-tax 401k every 2 weeks.

If she gets back pay everything will still be on track for this year if not our savings will be reduced for the year.

Probably save the restaurant gift cards for trips that we have planned in Jan, Feb and March to keep the cost of the trips down.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190106/167602873a5cfcd70a0412cfde6c7311.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190106/30fc7722c179afe71b8eceac58fc6c9d.jpg)

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

You should look into gift card exchanges for some of the non-food/household goods gift cards. You could turn some of them into more Walmart gift cards and use them for groceries. I have done that in the past with some iTunes/Apple gift cards and it has turned out well for me.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Abe Froman on January 07, 2019, 09:36:35 AM
After 4 pages.... why can't we all be brothers?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on January 07, 2019, 09:48:25 AM
I have no claim on any insider knowledge of robust cost-benefit analysis data for 'The Wall', but I really wonder how many voters who think the wall is a great idea have actually spent any time in the open-desert borderlands?  Not driven through a desert border crossing, but actually spent quality time working out in the open desert, in the mid-summer heat, dozens if not hundreds miles from anything but a scattering of human habitations?   I have.

Personally, I've worked quite a bit in the desert near the border.  Not on roads, not on established hiking trails, but out in the glorious expanse.  I've actually met illegal groups trekking through on several occasions (including when I was working alone). 

I have a close relative who was a border-patrol agent who actually patrolled the desert and busted illegals and incoming drugs (that person thinks the wall idea is absolutely moronic and a total waste of money and effort, even given the alternate technology that he had available to him back in the 1990s). 

My DH currently works frequently in the border country in the open desert (different desert, different state), so I've gotten to see that area, as well.

The wall idea just seems ridiculous to me.  Not only would you have to take away a bunch of ranchers' private property rights to build one, you'd have to disrupt and deface multiple national parks/monuments, disrupt local border town economies, put additional human pressure on fragile desert ecosystems, and (most importantly from my perspective) fuck up habitat, movements, and population gene-flow of vertebrate animals in the region.  The ecosystem effects alone make such an idea a complete non-starter to me. 

Then there's the fact that such a wall, once built, would require constant monitoring, manning, and upkeep, and I'm not convinced it would greatly reduce immigration.  Hell, people still managed to get across the Berlin wall, despite it being 1) quite tall; 2) in a very restricted area that was heavily urbanized and thus easy to access, man, and repair; and 3) fortified with ~300 guard-towers with ARMED GUARDS WHO WOULD SHOOT TO KILL.   

Also per my example of the Berlin wall, people understand how to tunnel under, breach, or climb over such walls (and have since medieval times).  The Border Patrol already has lots of remote technologies in use to monitor the border. Back in the 1990s they already had advanced night vision that could see people moving miles away and remote monitors that could detect people walking in the open desert.  One can only imagine the technology at their disposal NOW.  I find it hard to believe a wall could efficiently secure the border anywhere except high-traffic areas near major border crossings (e.g., San Diego has one). 

GIVEN THAT WE CANNOT STOP ALL ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I definitely want the border as secure as is REASONABLE.  In other words, I want cost-effective security and a reasonable trade-off between reducing illegal flow of people and impact on natural resources. 

If building some segments of wall in high traffic areas is a cost effective solution, that seems reasonable to me;  but that sure doesn't seem to match the ridiculous nonsense Trump and his supporters keep spouting.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: zygote on January 07, 2019, 11:06:43 AM
Related to the shutdown:  a national conference of student veterans in FL was looking at empty job recruitment booths from federal departments because no one was there to represent the Fed gov't.  Luckily a bunch of private companies like Microsoft were in attendance. 

Although I understand and fully sympathize with federal workers caught in this mess, I like to hear about personal stories like this of citizens who are now being affected.

I work at a university, and I have a grant due in about two weeks. Luckily the submission website is still up, but it is not being supported. Hope there aren't any technical difficulties...

While my grant deadline is still in place, the shutdown means no processing or reviewing can happen until it's over. Not only is no one able to work to coordinate this, but the amount of funding available is totally up in the air unless appropriations come through. Depending on how long this goes and what the final budget looks like, my grant cycle could get significantly delayed or even canceled.

It's hard enough to get funding for this equipment I need to do my job the best I can. This just adds an extra level of stress/uncertainty to what is already a stressful and cutthroat process.

I am, however, very grateful that my paycheck is not dependent on the grant
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 07, 2019, 11:11:45 AM
We just got an e-mail about this as well.

I was told in 2013 the agency pushed back deadlines, but it sounds like this time we're still required to submit on time, just no option to call up program officers with questions, no help with the website goes down, etc.

Good luck zygote!
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Imma on January 07, 2019, 11:38:16 AM
So we were out buying supplies to make chicken soup and other grocery items and getting pretty hungry and decided to stop in a sub shop on our way home and split a sandwich.

Wife ordered and paid in quarters and while explaining / apologizing for paying in quarters the manager said he understands and that he used to work as a fire fighter for the government and understands and offered her a job starting tomorrow.

She explained that she would not be able to give him a proper notice and would have to leave when the government started back up.

Again he said no problem and that he would just be happy to have someone that would show up on time even if for a few days.

The kindness of the manager boosted her spirits and she was pretty excited to have something new to do so today turned out to be a good day.

While it does not pay much it will take her mind off the shutdown and lift her spirits to have a place to go during the day.

Manager would probably have a good laugh looking at her resume listing all of her patents, inventions and publications :)


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I am way too tired of politics to reply to any other posts in this thread, but this story put a smile on my face :)

I hope your wife enjoys her short stint as a restaurant worker and will get back pay eventually. This is a true example of mustachianism: when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. The owner is happy to have a reliable worker, your wife will be keeping busy and earning money, and hopefully she'll enjoy her new job while it lasts.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: honeybbq on January 07, 2019, 12:24:03 PM
So we were out buying supplies to make chicken soup and other grocery items and getting pretty hungry and decided to stop in a sub shop on our way home and split a sandwich.

Wife ordered and paid in quarters and while explaining / apologizing for paying in quarters the manager said he understands and that he used to work as a fire fighter for the government and understands and offered her a job starting tomorrow.

She explained that she would not be able to give him a proper notice and would have to leave when the government started back up.

Again he said no problem and that he would just be happy to have someone that would show up on time even if for a few days.

The kindness of the manager boosted her spirits and she was pretty excited to have something new to do so today turned out to be a good day.

While it does not pay much it will take her mind off the shutdown and lift her spirits to have a place to go during the day.

Manager would probably have a good laugh looking at her resume listing all of her patents, inventions and publications :)


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Good karma to that sub shop! That is awesome!
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: GuitarStv on January 07, 2019, 12:52:27 PM
After 4 pages.... why can't we all be brothers?

 . . . get on your side of the room brother, I'm a buildin' a wall.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: marty998 on January 07, 2019, 01:20:35 PM
I hear the IRS is shut down as well?

Is this going to delay processing of everyone's tax information and returns? Wow imagine the outcry when the country can't get their hands on their tax refunds to go buy another plasma TV.... 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 07, 2019, 01:24:07 PM
I hear the IRS is shut down as well?

Is this going to delay processing of everyone's tax information and returns?

Short answer yes.

Long answer. Tax refunds may be delayed or they may not be issued at all until the government reopens. I've read different things from different sources and you cannot ask the IRS because 90% of them, including everyone devoting to asking questions is gone.

Note that we're also filing under a significantly revised tax code for the first time this year, and even in a normal year IRS help lines are bombarded with questions from January through April.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: mm1970 on January 07, 2019, 01:32:28 PM
I have no claim on any insider knowledge of robust cost-benefit analysis data for 'The Wall', but I really wonder how many voters who think the wall is a great idea have actually spent any time in the open-desert borderlands?  Not driven through a desert border crossing, but actually spent quality time working out in the open desert, in the mid-summer heat, dozens if not hundreds miles from anything but a scattering of human habitations?   I have.

Personally, I've worked quite a bit in the desert near the border.  Not on roads, not on established hiking trails, but out in the glorious expanse.  I've actually met illegal groups trekking through on several occasions (including when I was working alone). 

I have a close relative who was a border-patrol agent who actually patrolled the desert and busted illegals and incoming drugs (that person thinks the wall idea is absolutely moronic and a total waste of money and effort, even given the alternate technology that he had available to him back in the 1990s). 

My DH currently works frequently in the border country in the open desert (different desert, different state), so I've gotten to see that area, as well.

The wall idea just seems ridiculous to me.  Not only would you have to take away a bunch of ranchers' private property rights to build one, you'd have to disrupt and deface multiple national parks/monuments, disrupt local border town economies, put additional human pressure on fragile desert ecosystems, and (most importantly from my perspective) fuck up habitat, movements, and population gene-flow of vertebrate animals in the region.  The ecosystem effects alone make such an idea a complete non-starter to me. 

Then there's the fact that such a wall, once built, would require constant monitoring, manning, and upkeep, and I'm not convinced it would greatly reduce immigration.  Hell, people still managed to get across the Berlin wall, despite it being 1) quite tall; 2) in a very restricted area that was heavily urbanized and thus easy to access, man, and repair; and 3) fortified with ~300 guard-towers with ARMED GUARDS WHO WOULD SHOOT TO KILL.   

Also per my example of the Berlin wall, people understand how to tunnel under, breach, or climb over such walls (and have since medieval times).  The Border Patrol already has lots of remote technologies in use to monitor the border. Back in the 1990s they already had advanced night vision that could see people moving miles away and remote monitors that could detect people walking in the open desert.  One can only imagine the technology at their disposal NOW.  I find it hard to believe a wall could efficiently secure the border anywhere except high-traffic areas near major border crossings (e.g., San Diego has one). 

GIVEN THAT WE CANNOT STOP ALL ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I definitely want the border as secure as is REASONABLE.  In other words, I want cost-effective security and a reasonable trade-off between reducing illegal flow of people and impact on natural resources. 

If building some segments of wall in high traffic areas is a cost effective solution, that seems reasonable to me;  but that sure doesn't seem to match the ridiculous nonsense Trump and his supporters keep spouting.

I was gonna come here to say this myself.

Quote
Quote from: sol on January 06, 2019, 06:56:06 PM
Quote from: DreamFIRE on January 06, 2019, 06:36:19 PM
the wall pays for itself

(You do know that a wall is totally ineffective at slowing illegal immigration, right?)

I know that you "think" that or are trying to get us to "believe that you think" that because you actually support open borders like so many on the left do because it ultimately leads to more votes.  However, if you understood the issue, you couldn't say that with a straight face, just like the head of border security stated.  Even liberal politicians like Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Hillary Clinton have supported it.  You're not suggesting they are xenophobic racists are you?

My support of the wall predates the election of Trump.  This is something I've followed closely even before Obama was president.  I'm not a Trump supporter and oppose him on the ACA, for example.  I'm a free thinker and come to my own conclusions based on facts, not what a single party or the media tells me to think like so many others do.

I um, may or may not have a relative who has a job that has required spending time working with border patrol agents at the border. 
There's already a wall.
It doesn't really work.  I mean, it sometimes works.  Sort of works.  But the majority of illegal immigration doesn't come from people climbing walls (which they do all the time, in addition to tunneling under it).  It mostly comes from people overstaying their visas.  No cost-benefit analysis worth its salt will say the border wall is worth it.

Then the question becomes, who are you trying to keep out?  Because yeah, the wall may dissuade some poor farmers from crossing over with their kids, but it does less than zero to dissuade the criminals and drug runners.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: MilesTeg on January 07, 2019, 02:32:54 PM
Lost in all the talk of federal employees having their pay delayed (e.g. inconvenient but paid vacation) is that many, even probably most of the people affected are not federal employees but rather contractors who will never see a penny in back pay or compensation.



Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 07, 2019, 03:09:26 PM
Lost in all the talk of federal employees having their pay delayed (e.g. inconvenient but paid vacation) is that many, even probably most of the people affected are not federal employees but rather contractors who will never see a penny in back pay or compensation.
That's the cost of not being an employee, you can generally command higher income but have no job security. Sucks to be in that position for sure, but this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Nickel on January 07, 2019, 03:10:22 PM
If Congress really wanted to make illegal immigration go away, they'd make e-verify mandatory for employers of 500 employees in 2019, then 250 in 2020, then 100 in 2021, then 50, then 2.

It's all posturing.

Don't be silly, that would drastically cut illegal immigration and cost far less than $5billion. 

Trump doesn't actually want to reduce illegal immigration, because it's republican-owned business like farms and dairies that mostly depend on immigrant labor.  Building a wall has nothing to do with securing the border, because it won't.  As we've previously discussed, anyone can come to America on a tourist visa and cross legally, and then just overstay their visa.  Physically getting into the USA is always going to be the easy part.

Building a wall won't secure the border, but it will be a big visible symbol of nativism and racial hatred.  It will be a Statue of anti-Liberty, a giant art piece with a symbolic meaning that far outweighs its physical size.  If Trump was serious about fixing illegal immigration, he would not be focused on the wall at all.  But he's much more focused on appealing to the latent racism of his base supporters than he is on actually fixing this problem, hence the laserlike focus on a totally ineffective solution that makes racists stand up and cheer.

If the government wanted to get rid of illegal aliens, it would make them unemployable.  But the laws governing I-9s make it clear that they don't want to get rid of illegal aliens, just use them for propaganda.  Wall advocates always talk about stopping the "supply" at the border (with one of the least effective tools in the box--a wall) instead of the "demand" within our borders.  Why? 

The "wall" is a propaganda tool.  It would be no more effective than the Maginot Line in accomplishing its stated purpose.  It is like ordering a diet coke for lunch ... with 4 Big Macs.  It would be cheaper to order a water, and more effective to cut back on the grub (unless your purpose is to post an instagram photo of the diet coke and with the message: "Fat people: If I can do it, why can't you?")

The irony is that we have historic low unemployment levels and we have always relied upon immigrants (including many immigrants who are here illegally) to keep our economy going. 

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 07, 2019, 05:01:04 PM
If Congress really wanted to make illegal immigration go away, they'd make e-verify mandatory for employers of 500 employees in 2019, then 250 in 2020, then 100 in 2021, then 50, then 2.


I mentioned e-verify in a previous post months ago:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/family-separation-the-travel-ban-from-the-belly-of-the-beast/msg2054872/#msg2054872

Then I linked to a website posting solutions which includes e-verify.

Wall advocates always talk about stopping the "supply" at the border (with one of the least effective tools in the box--a wall) instead of the "demand" within our borders.  Why? 

You obviously didn't read my post to know that you are wrong on that assumption.  It is a common false talking point that the left uses as if a border wall means you would do away with other illegal immigration enforcement methods.  As I just linked to, I've mentioned e-verify in the past, plus I even linked to an article state other methods of enforcement, which includes e-verify, earlier in this thread.  Here it is again:

https://www.numbersusa.com/solutions

As extremely effective as a border wall has been shown to be, it alone isn't the solution.  There must be an multi-faceted approach that includes the wall.  But the cost of the wall and these other mechanisms of enforcement are peanuts compared to the high cost of illegal immigration:

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

The border wall will pay for itself:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 07, 2019, 05:12:51 PM
You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.

Your taxes do not support federal pensions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2017/03/14/3-5-trillion-taxpayer-liability-housed-inside-a-cave-let-the-sun-shine-on-federal-pensions/

Quote
What has a $3.5 trillion unfunded liability, manually calculated on paper inside a Pennsylvania mountain, and costs taxpayers more money annually than the entire state budget of Florida? Answer: Federal employee pensions.

We should be cutting taxes for really rich people and cutting pensions of some middle class fed employees.

I'm not angry, but the pensions for federal workers under the older overly generous over-promised pension system should be cut along with some of the other governent fat.  More recent hires don't get as sweet of a deal.  I'm all for fairness about where my tax dollars are going.  Don't cry too much about the rich people getting tax cuts - they are still paying FAR more tax dollars than you ever will.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 07, 2019, 05:26:00 PM
You mean because the government pensions are bailed out by tax hikes on workers, most who are not government workers themselves.  The private industry can't take more of my tax dollars to pay their retirees the way the government does.

Your taxes do not support federal pensions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2017/03/14/3-5-trillion-taxpayer-liability-housed-inside-a-cave-let-the-sun-shine-on-federal-pensions/

Quote
What has a $3.5 trillion unfunded liability, manually calculated on paper inside a Pennsylvania mountain, and costs taxpayers more money annually than the entire state budget of Florida? Answer: Federal employee pensions.

yep, really rich people got huge tax cuts and you're moaning about middle class pensions. Your anger is definitely targeting the right group.  We should be cutting taxes for really rich people and cutting pensions of some middle class fed employees. The rich need it more.

Just curious, but why do you think cutting pensions for fed employees will result in tax cuts for the rich.  Is it possible to reduce the cost of both liberal and conservative spending so that we can eliminate the deficit and start to decrease our debt? 

There are two things that scare me about the US today.  The rising cost of healthcare and the national debt to GDP ratio.  Personally I'm all for cutting down government spending on military, foreign aid, aid to illegal residents, cleaning up disability and medicaid for the people who actually need it, illuminate the war on drugs, free all incarcerated non violent drug offenders, etc.... All for the hope of decreasing our national debt.

If this so called wall decreases illegal immigration a few percent, and even more so with legitimate immigration reform. I guess it would pay for itself in the long run by decreasing spending elsewhere.  If this is really true I am definitely for this wall, and not because I am racist, but because I am against illegal immigration and all unproductive wasteful spending.  If this wall does nothing then I agree no need for the wall.  I personally am still not sold on a benefit of a wall vs a large chain fence like the one built on 2011.

Racism has EVERYTHING to do with the wall.  It's the only reason the whole idea of the wall exists.  I too want to secure our southern border, but a wall is a stupidly ineffective way to do that.  The only utility in a wall is as a counterpoint to the Statue of Liberty, as an art piece that says "America hates immigrants".  It won't actually do anything.  It's a waste of money.  It's only popular among people who fear the invading hordes of brown people will somehow harm our country, instead of help it like they always have.

@sol, an American citizen can want something you don't and not be a racist xenophobe.  I know it is hard to believe, but it is really true. You would be surprised how many Americans of Mexican decent believe a wall is a good idea.  Are they racist as well?


It's sol's standard MO as well as many people on the left.  If they don't have a valid argument to debate an issue, they just resort to name calling, or even start with that.  I explained to him earlier in the thread that the wall has nothing to do with racism, it's about effective border security along with the other enforcement methods I linked to.


.... Why is the focus on the southern border and not oceans, visas etc?


Right on, it should all be looked at and taken into consideration.

Yes, the focus isn't on just the wall.  The solutions article I linked to earlier mentioned other ways deal with illegal immigration.  The left likes to cloud the issue saying that the wall won't solve this, or it won't solve that, but the wall is just one important piece of the pie.

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 07, 2019, 05:30:16 PM
An Undeniable Reality — Border Walls Work

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

Quote
For one, the U.S. is hemorrhaging money — at least $116 billion annually — because of the high cost of illegal immigration. Any money spent on a border wall is well invested and will pay for itself ten-fold down the road in costs to state and local governments.

Immigration Experts Explain What An Effective Border Wall Actually Looks Like

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 07, 2019, 05:33:36 PM
The left likes to cloud the issue saying that the wall won't solve this, or it won't solve that, but the wall is just one important piece of the pie.

Then why isn't Trump talking about any of those other pieces?  He already turned down $25 billion for border security in exchange for a DACA fix.  Some of that $25b would have even gone toward his wall.  But he doesn't want to actually secure the border, as I keep saying to you, he only wants a symbol that his most vile base supporters believe sends a message to immigrants seeking a better life through hard work.

DF, you have consistently refuse to engage in any of the specific criticisms in this thread about how to fix our immigration problems.  I'm beginning to think it's because you're one of those folks who crave a symbol instead. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on January 07, 2019, 05:40:11 PM
Lost in all the talk of federal employees having their pay delayed (e.g. inconvenient but paid vacation) is that many, even probably most of the people affected are not federal employees but rather contractors who will never see a penny in back pay or compensation.
That's the cost of not being an employee, you can generally command higher income but have no job security. Sucks to be in that position for sure, but this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Not necessarily.  We often have more entry-level people coming in as contractors, hoping to get a foot in the door to Federal employment.  I have a contractor essentially functioning as a full time employee and she is paid about equivalent to a GS-09 even though she has an advanced degree and some serious skills.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 07, 2019, 05:47:41 PM
The left likes to cloud the issue saying that the wall won't solve this, or it won't solve that, but the wall is just one important piece of the pie.

DF, you have consistently refuse to engage in any of the specific criticisms in this thread about how to fix our immigration problems.  I'm beginning to think it's because you're one of those folks who crave a symbol instead.

You must be missing some of my posts because I have mentioned repeatedly specific other methods as I have months ago on the MMM forum as well.  But this thread is regarding the shutdown, which is most relevant to the wall.   Yet, I still mentioned e-verify, border patrol, deportation, for example, in this thread.

I'm not here to defend Trump.  As I already told you earlier, I'm not a Trump supporter in general, and I opposed him on health care, for example.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kimmarg on January 07, 2019, 06:35:13 PM
Shutdown stories meet "Mustachian people problems".  Was supposed to payoff the final chunk of the student loans this month. Instead we'll be keeping that cash out to cover the missed paycheck. (And yes, since payroll should have processed today it will be late) Thankfully we put nearly 50% of our take home on student loans so the effect on the day to day budget is minimal.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: palerider1858 on January 07, 2019, 06:49:21 PM
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DaMa on January 08, 2019, 07:08:43 AM

For example, federal employees pay biweekly insurance premiums.  When they don't get paid, their premiums aren't paid and their policies can technically lapse.  Are insurers required to provide free health insurance to millions of people? 

Federal employees are fully-insured so government pays premiums to the health insurance companies.  According to OPM the government pays the full premium, including employee share, for 365 days.

From OPM.com:

What happens to employees’ health and life insurance benefits during a furlough?

For health benefits, enrollment continues for no more than 365 days in a nonpay status. The nonpay status may be continuous or broken by periods of less than four consecutive months in a pay status. The Government contribution continues while employees are in a nonpay status. The Government also is responsible for advancing from salary the employee share of premium. The employee can choose between paying the agency directly on a current basis or having the premiums accumulate and be withheld from his or her pay upon returning to duty.

I get your general point, but surely this isn't actually a problem, right? I assume the government, like many megacorps, doesn't actually pay premiums to insurance companies, they just pay them a fee for administering claims and retain the liability for itself.

The government pays insurance premiums to insurance companies for employee health benefits just like any other employer that provides insurance, so if employees and/or government aren't making their contribution, it is a fair question as to whether (or how long) the insurer will provide services. 

You might be thinking of the fact that the U.S. Government "self insures" itself for its own liabilities.  For example, there's no insurance policy for government-owned cars.

Many (most?) large companies self-insure health care insurance for employees.  They pay health insurance companies an administration fee, but pay the actual costs themselves.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 08, 2019, 07:33:48 AM
Federal employees are fully-insured so government pays premiums to the health insurance companies.  According to OPM the government pays the full premium, including employee share, for 365 days.

This still doesn't help us understand what happens to fehb in the event of a long shutdown.  Like so many of these rules, it seems built on the fragile assumption that a shutdown couldn't possibly last long enough to extend past the expiration of a 365 window, starting on some unspecified date.

This one started in late December.  Did that 365 day window expire on Dec 31?  Does the government always pay a year in advance on a rolling biweekly schedule, and if so how do they know which fehb plan employees will select next year?  Or do they pay each January 1 when the new plans go into effect, in which case they haven't paid for any of 2019?  Are there "essential" employees being asked to work without pay just to process payments to insurance companies from paychecks that aren't being issued?  What happens after the 365 days, whichever days they are?

I feel like this OPM page, while trying to be helpful, only raises more questions than it answers about the health insurance coverage of millions of Americans.

edit:  wife thinks this OPM page means that fehb premiums will be paid for exactly 365 days, not "no more than 365 days" as the OPM guidance says.  I would read that as a hard upper limit on the duration of payments, without any lower limit specified.  She thinks this means federal employees will be automatically renewed in their current plans during the next open season, and premiums will continue to be paid until next December 22nd.  And that on December 23rd of 2019, every federal employee would be uninsured.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: GuitarStv on January 08, 2019, 07:55:17 AM
In other shutdown news, I had a national park vacation schedule for this week.  I expected all of the visitor centers and bathrooms to be closed, but all of the parks I've been to have actually been locked, like at the gate.
Yesterday at Guadalupe, the entrance gate was barred and there about a hundred cars parked along the side of the highway with families running across multiple lanes during breaks in the traffic.  This is NOT SAFE.  Why don't they just leave the gate open and let people use the nice turn lane, and then park in the huge parking lot a hundred yards away, where no one is going to get mowed down?  There are still nature trails and such you can access without needing the visitor center to be open.  By all means lock the buildings, but don't lock the gates to a park that I own.

I'm waiting for the national news to cover the first traffic fatality at a "closed" national park that decided to block safe access and put kids at risk of being mowed down by speeding cars.  This is stupid.

Seven people dead in national parks since the shutdown . . . no traffic fatalities though.
  https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/qvqq77/yosemite-national-park-death-went-unreported-for-a-week-during-government-shutdown (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/qvqq77/yosemite-national-park-death-went-unreported-for-a-week-during-government-shutdown)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 08, 2019, 08:15:22 AM

Seven people dead in national parks since the shutdown . . .

That is about average for fatalities since there are 11 or 12 per month most years.

I'm more concerned about people tearing up the parks, which they do fast enough even when the rangers are around.  It might be better to shut them down.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 08, 2019, 08:40:46 AM
Trump is going on TV to talk about the shutdown.  Any bets on what he says?

I think there a few extreme and crazy options, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to say "both sides need to come together on this to find a compromise."  Instead, I'm expecting him to declare martial law or emergency powers, divert military resources to the border (again), or attempt some kind of power move like prohibiting congress from meeting.  Or alternately, totally capitulate to Democrats on the $5b but try to save face with some story about how he's doing it because border patrol agents are the most important people in the world and they deserve to be paid, and the "ongoing crisis" at the border requires our full attention instead of an abdication of our responsibilities at the border by shuttering government.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 08, 2019, 08:53:31 AM
Trump is going on TV to talk about the shutdown.  Any bets on what he says?

I think there a few extreme and crazy options, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to say "both sides need to come together on this to find a compromise."  Instead, I'm expecting him to declare martial law or emergency powers, divert military resources to the border (again), or attempt some kind of power move like prohibiting congress from meeting.  Or alternately, totally capitulate to Democrats on the $5b but try to save face with some story about how he's doing it because border patrol agents are the most important people in the world and they deserve to be paid, and the "ongoing crisis" at the border requires our full attention instead of an abdication of our responsibilities at the border by shuttering government.

I wonder if he is using this wall to create controversy and accomplish something else while no one is looking. 
I wonder if he is creating enough disgruntlement on the democrats side so that they don't go for the wall but agree on something else that he really wants while still acting like he wants a wall to save face with some of his voter base.

BTW, I met an ex-border patrol officer yesterday who believes a wall is necessary and showed me pictures of border based drug seizures as well as current fencing that is nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire that is more designed for cattle since any human can easily cross though.  Better fencing than what we have now is probably a good idea.  One person experience does not sway my thinking but does add to it. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 08, 2019, 09:21:51 AM
I wonder if he is using this wall to create controversy and accomplish something else while no one is looking. 

Just Russian collusion.  Remember when all of the indictments started landing last month, and I said something like "what crazy thing will Trump do next to suck up all of the media coverage and distract people from these new revelations?"  Well, this is it.

Quote
I wonder if he is creating enough disgruntlement on the democrats side so that they don't go for the wall but agree on something else that he really wants

I think a big part of it is not getting something specific that he wants, it's preventing the incoming congressional majority from announcing or executing any of their legislative priorities.  Pelosi had all of these plans for subpoenas, his tax returns, protecting the Mueller investigation, ethics reforms, and campaign finance and voting rights protections.  Instead, they are doing absolutely nothing with their majority except arguing with Trump about a useless border wall. 

Quote
BTW, I met an ex-border patrol officer yesterday who believes a wall is necessary

Walls are totally necessary, in some places!  We already have hundreds of miles of walls, mostly in urban areas and their surroundings, where it would be easy to drive a cargo truck full of drugs across the border.  We funnel people into checkpoints using walls.

But a wall in the desert makes no sense.  Very few people cross there anyway, and the ones that do can't drive across the desert for more than a few miles before they hit a real road, and that's where all of the manned border checkpoints already exist.

Quote
Better fencing than what we have now is probably a good idea.

It won't help.  There is always some other way to enter the country, including legally by just buying a plane ticket, which is how most illegal immigrants came to American anyway.

If you want to reduce illegal immigration in America, you need to remove the incentive for people to come here seeking work.  Enforce e-verify for everyone, and penalize employers who break that law with heavy fines used to pay for the enforcement.  Boom, illegal immigration just dropped by 75% without building a single foot of wall or spending a single new dollar.  Accept that agricultural prices will rise as a result.

But as we've previously discussed, republicans don't actually want to reduce immigrant labor because republican-owned businesses depend on it.  They only use this issue as a dog-whistle for American racists, a way to subtly signal "hey I hate brown people too, vote for me!" without coming out and saying as much in a way that would alienate anti-racist voters.  If they actually wanted to reduce illegal immigration, a wall is not the way to do it. 

This whole shutdown debate is just more Apprentice style reality tv, a carefully crafted made-for-tv narrative starring a made-for-tv president.  The drama is fake, the conflict is fake, the solutions are fake, and most of the characters are fake.  Its real purpose is to convince gullible tv watchers to vote one way or the other in the coming election by portraying their chosen stars or villains in a particular light, and to control the story arc so that democrats can't pursue any of their own legislative priorities.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Peachtea on January 08, 2019, 10:34:28 AM
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.
The VA hospitals seem to be fully functioning as well and monthly benefits are still being paid to Vets with disabilities. Not sure how long that will last in an extended shutdown but since the VA is front funded for each year it won't likely be affected.

It’s a partial gov shutdown, because several agencies were previously funded for the year in separate bills. Only the agencies in the last bill that includes DHS are shutdown. (But it’s still a good chunk of agencies and employees affected.) So DoD, VA, SSA, DOL and some others are fully funded for the year. They won’t have any problems until end of next September when the 2020 FY showdown happens.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Maverick1 on January 08, 2019, 11:14:27 AM
I'm the controller for a Canadian company whose US subsidiary is getting audited by the IRS.  I sent the IRS reams of data about our company in the Fall and again in December, and was told by the IRS they would follow-up the first week in January.  With the shutdown I haven't heard from them.  The best part (from my perspective) is the IRS self-imposed deadlines, after these deadlines they can no longer question us or re-assess any amounts.  With those deadlines fast approaching, selflishly I hope the shutdown lasts a little longer :)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 08, 2019, 11:30:21 AM
More in the weird/random section of shutdown stories.  Our small region office has received 3 Spam calls from "card services" saying we are eligible to lower the interest rates on our credit card bills so far today.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: anotherAlias on January 08, 2019, 11:37:57 AM
Trump is going on TV to talk about the shutdown.  Any bets on what he says?

I think there a few extreme and crazy options, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to say "both sides need to come together on this to find a compromise."  Instead, I'm expecting him to declare martial law or emergency powers, divert military resources to the border (again), or attempt some kind of power move like prohibiting congress from meeting.  Or alternately, totally capitulate to Democrats on the $5b but try to save face with some story about how he's doing it because border patrol agents are the most important people in the world and they deserve to be paid, and the "ongoing crisis" at the border requires our full attention instead of an abdication of our responsibilities at the border by shuttering government.

I wonder if he is using this wall to create controversy and accomplish something else while no one is looking. 
I wonder if he is creating enough disgruntlement on the democrats side so that they don't go for the wall but agree on something else that he really wants while still acting like he wants a wall to save face with some of his voter base.

BTW, I met an ex-border patrol officer yesterday who believes a wall is necessary and showed me pictures of border based drug seizures as well as current fencing that is nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire that is more designed for cattle since any human can easily cross though.  Better fencing than what we have now is probably a good idea.  One person experience does not sway my thinking but does add to it.

Part of me wonders if this is some bizzaro world way of reducing the size of the government.  Hey look, we survived the shutdown without these 800,000 govt employees, why should we keep them around.  Then my logical brain says that is far too sophisticated planning for this administration.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: mm1970 on January 08, 2019, 12:41:11 PM
An Undeniable Reality — Border Walls Work

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

Quote
For one, the U.S. is hemorrhaging money — at least $116 billion annually — because of the high cost of illegal immigration. Any money spent on a border wall is well invested and will pay for itself ten-fold down the road in costs to state and local governments.

Immigration Experts Explain What An Effective Border Wall Actually Looks Like

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/
Those pics look almost exactly like the border wall in a particular area of the country...where they climb it, toss something over the top so they don't get hurt, and jump over to the other side.  Then they throw things over, light a fire, have a bonfire.  What happens?  Nothing

(Because the border patrol agents aren't stupid, and they know this is being used as a diversion to direct attention away from somewhere else).
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kimmarg on January 08, 2019, 12:45:56 PM
More in the weird/random section of shutdown stories.  Our small region office has received 3 Spam calls from "card services" saying we are eligible to lower the interest rates on our credit card bills so far today.

Oh yea we get those. Plus trying to sell us extended warranty on the GSA vehicle - lol
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 08, 2019, 01:28:48 PM
Speculation here is that Trump's prime time address tonight will attempt to declare a national emergency, to allow him to use DoD funds to build a border wall, knowing full well that it will get overturned by the courts and no wall will get built.

The idea here is that the republicans all know Trump is losing this shutdown battle badly, and he needs some way to capitulate while saving face.  He will agree to re-open the government with zero border wall funding, claiming he has found his funding through the emergency declaration.  This solution allows him to tell his base supporters "I tried my best to do this, and the democrats blocked me and the courts blocked me and it's all part of the deep state conspiracy to undermine my presidency".  That way he can totally cave without appearing to totally cave.  He can cave while blaming other people, and hopefully his most gullible base supporters will buy it.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 08, 2019, 02:00:22 PM
Speculation here is that Trump's prime time address tonight will attempt to declare a national emergency, to allow him to use DoD funds to build a border wall, knowing full well that it will get overturned by the courts and no wall will get built.

The idea here is that the republicans all know Trump is losing this shutdown battle badly, and he needs some way to capitulate while saving face.  He will agree to re-open the government with zero border wall funding, claiming he has found his funding through the emergency declaration.  This solution allows him to tell his base supporters "I tried my best to do this, and the democrats blocked me and the courts blocked me and it's all part of the deep state conspiracy to undermine my presidency".  That way he can totally cave without appearing to totally cave.  He can cave while blaming other people, and hopefully his most gullible base supporters will buy it.

Tomorrow being the last day to get timecards in before people don't get checks on Friday does lead weight to this speculation. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Nickel on January 08, 2019, 02:14:05 PM
An Undeniable Reality — Border Walls Work

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

Quote
For one, the U.S. is hemorrhaging money — at least $116 billion annually — because of the high cost of illegal immigration. Any money spent on a border wall is well invested and will pay for itself ten-fold down the road in costs to state and local governments.

Immigration Experts Explain What An Effective Border Wall Actually Looks Like

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

Strawman argument from Daily Caller (a conservative American news and opinion website based founded by political pundit Tucker Carlson and Neil Patel in 2010).  As SOL has pointed out and everyone agrees: Yes, border walls do work and are necessary in urban areas, near border crossings, etc.  But show me any objective source or data showing that a border wall stretching across the entire border would be more effective than monitoring/patrolling the natural barriers that we already have: river, desert, mountains, empty roadless spaces, etc.  A continuous wall is useless without monitoring, which we already do.  The wall is a symbol, a propaganda tool. 

You acknowledge that we could do a better job with e-verification, etc., along with deterrents and penalties for those who enable and employ immigrants who are here illegally.  But there is no political will by the GOP or the Democrats to do that, because non-voting immigrants who are here illegally allow agriculture to flourish, provide cheap labor (as well as highly skilled services in many cases), enrich businesses and add to the national GDP.  They give a lot more than they take, and business class likes it that way.  Don't go for the head fake.  (Trump's hotels employ illegal immigrants and has his MAGA hats are made in China -- watch what he does, not what he says).

When a person chooses one of the most wasteful, least effective ways to solve a "problem," it is their way of telling you that they do not want to solve the "problem."  Trump and the GOP are willing to shut down the government over the "wall" because it was an effective campaign symbol, propaganda tool and dog whistle to racists and xenophobes, as well as others who make up the GOP base. 

I appreciate that DreamFire is willing to discuss this, because echo chambers are annoying.  He is correct that there are other ways to address illegal immigration, but the business class will not sacrifice that cash cow until there is a suitable substitute, e.g., prison labor, off shore and overseas labor, robots, or a disempowered, low wage underclass. 

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 08, 2019, 03:21:49 PM

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." – Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Peachtea on January 08, 2019, 03:54:09 PM
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.
The VA hospitals seem to be fully functioning as well and monthly benefits are still being paid to Vets with disabilities. Not sure how long that will last in an extended shutdown but since the VA is front funded for each year it won't likely be affected.

It’s a partial gov shutdown, because several agencies were previously funded for the year in separate bills. Only the agencies in the last bill that includes DHS are shutdown. (But it’s still a good chunk of agencies and employees affected.) So DoD, VA, SSA, DOL and some others are fully funded for the year. They won’t have any problems until end of next September when the 2020 FY showdown happens.
That's what I figured. I wonder if that means VA employees are getting pay checks though or just that VA services are funded and benefits for vets continue?

Also is the shutdown something that will effect ACA subsidies? I'm not on the ACA but it seems I read somewhere they would also be continued to be paid during the shutdown.

Any of the agencies who are funded already, DoD, VA etc., their employees are getting paid. This is one of the reasons the idea of a shutdown lasting months isn’t getting the same bipartisan outcry it normally would. Nobody would support the military going unpaid for months at a time.

I think, but am not 100% sure, that ACA subsidies are fine, because HHS who runs that program was in the same appropriations bill as VA (I think). However, I read something about “most” of HHS being funded back in September. I don’t know what parts of HHS didn’t get funded...but it seems weird to only fund part of an agency.

SNAP or food stamps is an issue because it’s ran by USDA and they are part of the shutdown. It’s all about which agency got their funding in the earlier bills and those that didn’t whether they have any non-appropriated funds they can throw at a program to keep it hobbling along until appropriations are passed. I’m surprised we haven’t heard more from the prisons. Doesn’t make me feel great that the guards at federal prisons are working unpaid right now. And food inspectors...
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 08, 2019, 04:02:08 PM
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls, like that's such a great comparison. Israel is constantly getting bombarded with rocket attacks and under threat of annihilation from enemies. I don't think America is a place like that. And I don't want to live in a place where I'm surrounded with walls like I'm living in a prison. This is MY country. My ancestors built this place. And they are rolling over in their graves with this kind of talk.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Nickel on January 08, 2019, 04:15:08 PM

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." – Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

DreamFIRE:  Why do you ignore what others are saying?  You are having a conversation with yourself.     

Border walls do work. So do land mines and border patrol agents.  So why not place land mines and border agents everywhere instead of building a wall?  Cost/risk v. benefit.  That is the same reason we don't build walls everywhere (hello Canada). If you think a wall is a one-time expense with no ongoing patrol/maintenance expenses, then I have a boat I'd like to sell you.

You are being conned.  Trump is a master, and knows this well: It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled.  The wall is a symbol, not a solution.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Nickel on January 08, 2019, 04:30:15 PM
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls, like that's such a great comparison. Israel is constantly getting bombarded with rocket attacks and under threat of annihilation from enemies. I don't think America is a place like that. And I don't want to live in a place where I'm surrounded with walls like I'm living in a prison. This is MY country. My ancestors built this place. And they are rolling over in their graves with this kind of talk.

Good point.  Also, Israel has walls on some parts of its border, just like we do.  And Israel has no walls on other parts of its border, just like we do.  You don't use the same tool for every job, so why use a wrench to pound a nail when you've got a hammer in your hand? 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 08, 2019, 07:51:40 PM
I watched his primetime speech and the democratic response tonight, and was underwhelmed.

Trump made the same familiar arguments he made during the campaign, that immigrants are scary and Americans should be fearful, and he tried to blame democrats for the inability of the 100% republican controlled congress to pass a budget bill that wasted billions of dollars on a useless wall.  He tried to blame democrats, who weren't even in power when the shutdown started, saying they want open borders.

Schumer and Pelosi were on a few minutes later, and made the same arguments they have previously made, that they too want border security but that the wall is a waste of money, that they still support the existing bipartisan budget that includes border security funding but not a separate dollar amount for funding a wall, and that Trump asked for the shutdown, claimed ownership of the shutdown, then backtracked on his promise to let congress pass a budget in order to force a shutdown. 

So basically, nothing new.  Trump pitches fear of brown people "invading" our country and somehow tries to turn that into the moral high ground, democrats say he's trying to leverage the well being of federal employees, many of them veterans, to fulfill the fever dream wishes of a hardline nationalist minority.  Trump says this is about justice, democrats say this is about responsible government.  Trump says he won't budge off his demand for billions for a wall and will keep the shutdown going until he gets his way, democrats say they won't budge on the wall funding but they want to re-open the government while congress pursues immigration reform that actually works.

It was a total let down, IMO.  No one budged, no new information was offered that I can see.  I'll be shocked if there are any breakthroughs in the next few days as a result of this.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 08, 2019, 08:06:36 PM
There was a reason most of the networks weren't even gonna air the speech or the response until folks stirred up rumors it was going to be a declaration of a national emergency. Nothing to see here.

If I'm reading the federal payroll right, this Friday should be the first time folks would have gotten a direct deposit and won't get anything, correct? Or was the Dec 28th payday skipped already even though many of the days people would have been getting paid for on the 28th were worked before the shutdown happened?

I know most on this board will be able to absorb the missed check as an annoyance rather than a disaster, but I still hope all of you who are effected as doing okay.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 08, 2019, 08:11:53 PM
I'm not angry, but the pensions for federal workers under the older overly generous over-promised pension system should be cut along with some of the other governent fat.

Good to know that you promote lying to workers and deliberately screwing them over later by violating agreements, like the President does.

How vile.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 08, 2019, 08:27:38 PM
If I'm reading the federal payroll right, this Friday should be the first time folks would have gotten a direct deposit and won't get anything, correct?

Different agencies pay on different schedules.  It's not like all federal employees get paid on Fridays or anything. 

But in general, yes this week and next are the damage landing.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 08, 2019, 08:31:57 PM
I parsed the RSS feed from 538's podcast to find all the emergency podcasts they've done since Trump's election.

Quote
Emergency Podcast: Mattis Is Out, Shutdown Is On (?)
Emergency Podcast: Cohen Is Cooperating With Mueller
Emergency Podcast: Sessions Is Out
Emergency Podcast: Manafort Is Cooperating
Emergency Podcast: Cohen + Manafort = !!!
Emergency Podcast: Kennedy Is Retiring
Emergency Podcast: The Inspector General's Report
Emergency Podcast: Ryan To Retire
Emergency Podcast: FBI Raids Trump's Lawyer's Office
Emergency Podcast: Rexit
Emergency Podcast: 13 Russians Indicted
Emergency Podcast - Government Shutdown
Emergency Podcast: Doug Jones Wins
Emergency Podcast: Flynn Flips
Emergency Podcast - Flake Is Out
Emergency Podcast: McCain Is A No
Emergency Podcast - Bannon Out
Emergency Podcast - Senate Repeal Fails
Emergency Podcast - Don Jr.'s Emails
Emergency Podcast - Georgia And South Carolina Specials
Emergency Podcast - Hung Parliament
Emergency Podcast - Comey's Testimony
Emergency Podcast - Comey's Prepared Testimony
Emergency Podcast - The Comey Memo
Emergency Podcast: Trump Fires Comey
Emergency Podcast: This Russia Stuff
Emergency Podcast: The SCOTUS Battle Ahead

They're not doing one for this speech. Nothingburger sounds about right.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sixwings on January 08, 2019, 08:36:54 PM

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." – Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

I'm just curious... what parts of the border do you think don't have barriers up? Like... what do you think this is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier

Is the idea here to tear these down and replace them with... apparently the same thing?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 08, 2019, 08:45:52 PM
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls...

I vaguely recall a large wall somewhere in Asia as well.  Walls are a historic and primitive solution to keeping people out.  Everyone can understand a wall. It's a far simpler campaign concept to convey than a mesh of drones and agents and seismic detectors and infrared and whatnot. Trump promised a wall to his supporters and now he's trying to keep his promise.  He's going to be difficult on this I think.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Michael in ABQ on January 08, 2019, 09:58:09 PM

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." – Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

I'm just curious... what parts of the border do you think don't have barriers up? Like... what do you think this is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier

Is the idea here to tear these down and replace them with... apparently the same thing?

Outside of urban areas the border is often just vehicle barriers only or a couple of strands of barbed wire fence like you'd see on a ranch. I don't recall the exact numbers but out of ~2,000 miles I think there's an actual wall/fence along only about 500 miles.

I did some training at Fort Huachuca in southern Arizona a few years ago. It's less than 10 miles from the border to the base boundary and the area in between is a nature preserve. While on the land navigation course we found evidence of illegal immigrants (discarded clothing, water bottles, medicines with spanish labels, etc.). This base is the HQ for Military Intelligence and contains lots of classified space but they can't keep people from just walking over the border and through the base. Incidentally there was a large aerostat (tethered balloon) that was anchored on the base and contained cameras for the Border Patrol. They also flew UAVs out of there for training, though I don't think they were for Border Patrol usage - just training for operators.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on January 08, 2019, 11:19:35 PM
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls...

I vaguely recall a large wall somewhere in Asia as well.  Walls are a historic and primitive solution to keeping people out.  Everyone can understand a wall. It's a far simpler campaign concept to convey than a mesh of drones and agents and seismic detectors and infrared and whatnot. Trump promised a wall to his supporters and now he's trying to keep his promise.  He's going to be difficult on this I think.

Um.... the Great Wall of China????
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Barbaebigode on January 09, 2019, 04:07:27 AM
Elections have consequences. If the elected congress and senate won't fund your wall, then you don't get a wall. Not getting your shit passed if you don't have the votes used to be normal. But I guess Trump knows this. Suddenly everybody is talking about the last outrageous thing and not about all the criminal activities linked to the president, his family and associates.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 09, 2019, 05:05:38 AM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on January 09, 2019, 05:37:17 AM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Unique User on January 09, 2019, 07:02:35 AM

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." – Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

Perhaps, but all those articles are from far right publications/websites.  I mean, come on, the Daily Caller?  Tucker's website is pure propaganda.  And one of your reasons for a wall is that it would stop the flow of drugs, however, the DEA does not agree.  The vast majority of drugs coming into the US would not be affected in any way by a wall.  I'd be more inclined to trust the DEA than a Daily Caller "journalist". 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/29/trump-says-border-wall-will-stop-drugs-heres-what-a-dea-intel-report-says/

I am personally not interested in paying $5B for a wall out of taxpayer money.  I've lived near the border and my family has lived in the San Diego/Southern California area for decades.  I've lived in Southwest resort and ranching areas that can't survive without immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  The way to fix this mess?  Increase legal immigration to the levels that America needs, make e-verify mandatory and establish punitive fines against business owners and companies and their leadership that break the law.  You blatantly break the law like Trump's staff giving out fake green cards to illegal immigrants, you don't just pay punitive fines, you go to jail. 

I notice none of the far right figures or websites pushing ideas like that for one reason - they NEED illegal immigrants and the wall in order to whip up the base.  Without being able to stoke fear about brown people coming over the border, what would they have? 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 02:35:05 PM
Seems we're just yelling at each other about a wall right now, but I just came to this thread and thought I'd share some of my personal shutdown stories

For context I work at a private research lab that gets much of its funding through open federal grants and has a lot of partnerships with NOAA, the DoE and NASA.

Recently we had to cancel an expedition to the southern ocean (off Antarctica, for the geographically challenged) because it was on a NOAA research vessel and funded through a grant from the National Science Foundation (NSF).  The expedition was 2 years of planning and most of the equipment had already been shipped freight to ARgentina (the port of debarkation).  Nine US scientists will not be getting on a plane this week to take their non-refundable, multi-leg journey to meet the boat in South America.  Thousands of kg worth of equipment will need to be shipped back to the US or staged in warehouses until a new cruise can be planned years from now.  We will not learn anything this austral-summer about the effects of retreating sea-ice on plankton and the food web (keep in mind that the southern ocean is one of the most productive and poorly studied regions on the planet). Later this season the NOAA ship will make its ~8,000 mile journey back to the northern hemisphere having accomplished nothing this season.

In similar news, other NOAA vessels throughout the world are tied up to docks, costing us taxpayers lots of money but not accomplishing anything. Fishing permits are not being issued The winter crab season is upon us and at least some of the fleet can't go out due to unresolved permitting issues. Of the ones that are out fishing there are no on-board monitors to ensure rules are being followed adn to take stock assessments. Next year when it comes time to set quotas there won't be much good data to base these decisions on.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on January 09, 2019, 02:54:10 PM
Seems we're just yelling at each other about a wall right now, but I just came to this thread and thought I'd share some of my personal shutdown stories

For context I work at a private research lab that gets much of its funding through open federal grants and has a lot of partnerships with NOAA, the DoE and NASA.

Recently we had to cancel an expedition to the southern ocean (off Antarctica, for the geographically challenged) because it was on a NOAA research vessel and funded through a grant from the National Science Foundation (NSF).  The expedition was 2 years of planning and most of the equipment had already been shipped freight to ARgentina (the port of debarkation).  Nine US scientists will not be getting on a plane this week to take their non-refundable, multi-leg journey to meet the boat in South America.  Thousands of kg worth of equipment will need to be shipped back to the US or staged in warehouses until a new cruise can be planned years from now.  We will not learn anything this austral-summer about the effects of retreating sea-ice on plankton and the food web (keep in mind that the southern ocean is one of the most productive and poorly studied regions on the planet). Later this season the NOAA ship will make its ~8,000 mile journey back to the northern hemisphere having accomplished nothing this season.

In similar news, other NOAA vessels throughout the world are tied up to docks, costing us taxpayers lots of money but not accomplishing anything. Fishing permits are not being issued The winter crab season is upon us and at least some of the fleet can't go out due to unresolved permitting issues. Of the ones that are out fishing there are no on-board monitors to ensure rules are being followed adn to take stock assessments. Next year when it comes time to set quotas there won't be much good data to base these decisions on.

That shit is so infuriating.  DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed. All of the non-federal cooperators and funders are affected every time this happens.  During the Oct shutdown a few years ago, he was unable to travel to one of his international field sites to collect data as part of an ongoing monitoring project (more than a decade). I was able to go, but could not collect most of the data solo (it requires 2-3 people per team). Meanwhile the field site/food/etc were being subsidized by a private party.  So 3 weeks' worth of money, time, and space was wasted and we lost a year of data.

We are fortunate this year that this isn't occurring during (our) field season.  As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

I am so angry on your behalf. I can only imagine your frustration.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 09, 2019, 03:00:41 PM
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 03:21:01 PM
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.

you want absurd?  I'm serving as an informal advisor to one student who's primary advisor is with the USGS (US Geological Survey).  He's a very 'follow the rules' kind of guy'.  Anyhow, he's not allowed to meet with her about her research project (which she most complete in the next few weeks if she has any hope of presenting it by April), yet I was told under no circumstances can I change/alter/modify anything because it was ultimately a project under his lab.  Telling a student s/he can't make changes as teh experiment progresses is a bit like saying you can't make adjustments to road conditions and other drivers when traveling on the freeway - you will inevitably crash and likely wind up in a ditch somewhere.  But I don't have the authority to make changes, the student doesn't have the experience, and he isn't allowed to even communicate (not even by email).
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 09, 2019, 03:47:17 PM
What's a world for a mental state that has traveled through discouragement, through resignation, through rage, and into a new zone of pure unadulterated {something}. We need a word for beyond rage.

Mechanisms that were able to coast through the holidays are increasingly going off the rails. I can't really give specifics due to OPSEC and non-disclosures. I'm not legally allowed to use contemptuous worlds towards the president of the United States. Nor can I just get drunk, since I'm currently legally responsible, on a 24/7 basis, for ~$200 million in government assets and a couple dozen lives. Legally, I'm not even allowed to quit.

People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Pizzabrewer on January 09, 2019, 03:49:22 PM
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.

you want absurd?  I'm serving as an informal advisor to one student who's primary advisor is with the USGS (US Geological Survey).  He's a very 'follow the rules' kind of guy'.  Anyhow, he's not allowed to meet with her about her research project (which she most complete in the next few weeks if she has any hope of presenting it by April), yet I was told under no circumstances can I change/alter/modify anything because it was ultimately a project under his lab.  Telling a student s/he can't make changes as teh experiment progresses is a bit like saying you can't make adjustments to road conditions and other drivers when traveling on the freeway - you will inevitably crash and likely wind up in a ditch somewhere.  But I don't have the authority to make changes, the student doesn't have the experience, and he isn't allowed to even communicate (not even by email).

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 09, 2019, 03:50:49 PM
People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

I hadn't realized there were people who were both not getting paid AND legally barred from quitting and finding another job instead. This needs to be publicized more. I think it would hit an awful lot of people in a way the existing human interest reporting hasn't managed to.

I know it do to me.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on January 09, 2019, 03:53:01 PM
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.

you want absurd?  I'm serving as an informal advisor to one student who's primary advisor is with the USGS (US Geological Survey).  He's a very 'follow the rules' kind of guy'.  Anyhow, he's not allowed to meet with her about her research project (which she most complete in the next few weeks if she has any hope of presenting it by April), yet I was told under no circumstances can I change/alter/modify anything because it was ultimately a project under his lab.  Telling a student s/he can't make changes as teh experiment progresses is a bit like saying you can't make adjustments to road conditions and other drivers when traveling on the freeway - you will inevitably crash and likely wind up in a ditch somewhere.  But I don't have the authority to make changes, the student doesn't have the experience, and he isn't allowed to even communicate (not even by email).

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Oh, I know.  Fuck them.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 04:01:15 PM

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 09, 2019, 04:01:36 PM
People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

I hadn't realized there were people who were both not getting paid AND legally barred from quitting and finding another job instead. This needs to be publicized more. I think it would hit an awful lot of people in a way the existing human interest reporting hasn't managed to.

I know it do to me.

Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.

The Senate has passed a bill that would allow the USCG to be paid through the treasury dept, but the House hasn't pass, or even introduced a counterpart. There's no mirror bill that will allow NOAA Corps officers to be paid, mostly because even the gov't doesn't know who the fuck they are. So that little bit of the long blue line is even further up shit creek.

Thanks for the support. If anyone feels like calling their congressional representative, particularly the house, on our behalf that would be a kindness. Because (you guessed it) it's also illegal for us to lobby on our own behalf.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 09, 2019, 04:03:32 PM
This CNN article (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/politics/chuck-schumer-nancy-pelosi-trump/index.html) about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Pizzabrewer on January 09, 2019, 04:17:32 PM

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: OtherJen on January 09, 2019, 04:23:37 PM

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

Sarcasm, I expect. Someone who still supports Trump likely thinks that all science is either an evil liberal scheme or a pack of lies to get money.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 04:28:17 PM

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely.
ok - sorry.  Yes, I missed it.
But you did bring up an important point, which is that a disturbingly large swath of the public i) doesn't know all the various jobs that government workers (including scientists) actually do and ii) is skeptical of both the value of that work and the results from it.
I put a big chunk of the blame on the decades-long campaign to discredit climate change but in general many scientists are spectacularly bad at explaining what they do to the average layperson. In many government positions that is compounded by regulations that prevent and hamper these same employees from discussing their work without vetting and authorization.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Pizzabrewer on January 09, 2019, 04:34:25 PM

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely.
ok - sorry.  Yes, I missed it.
But you did bring up an important point, which is that a disturbingly large swath of the public i) doesn't know all the various jobs that government workers (including scientists) actually do and ii) is skeptical of both the value of that work and the results from it.
I put a big chunk of the blame on the decades-long campaign to discredit climate change but in general many scientists are spectacularly bad at explaining what they do to the average layperson. In many government positions that is compounded by regulations that prevent and hamper these same employees from discussing their work without vetting and authorization.

I agree with you 100%.  It is sickening how solid scientific work is easily dismissed by politicians becacuse of what they and their followers "believe". 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 09, 2019, 04:46:55 PM
Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.
I'm confused. It's been 10 days since the last paycheck and you already have subordinates crying? Are you paid weekly, or is this preemptive despair?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 04:56:32 PM
Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.
I'm confused. It's been 10 days since the last paycheck and you already have subordinates crying? Are you paid weekly, or is this preemptive despair?
They've already missed the chance to get payroll through in time to get their paycheck.
Wouldn't you be pissed off if you were required to work but knew that - at best - your pay would be delayed by at least a few weeks, and no one could give you an answer about when that would be?
During all previous shutdowns congress has authorized back-pay, but there's no certainty of that, and it will take a while.

Active duty tends to skew heavily towards the younger people - there's a lot of early 20-somethings with zero (or negative) net worth and young children to care for. A constant paycheck is supposed to be one of the few perks of putting your life and liberty on the line.  Now they don't even get that.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BuildingFrugalHabits on January 09, 2019, 05:14:07 PM
I'm sorry for all of those affected directly or indirectly by the shutdown.  The stories of destruction in our National Parks and disruption of scientific studies are particularly troubling.  I haven't seen any information in this thread or elsewhere that has convinced me that a wall is necessary or even desirable, let alone something I'd be willing to fund as a taxpayer.  I'm far more concerned about climate change and the impending destruction that is sure to bring.  Seems like the shutdown has also redirected the focus and national attention away from other more pressing issues. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nessness on January 09, 2019, 05:18:57 PM
I was a furloughed "non-essential" federal scientist in the 2013 shutdown, and was working on infrastructure safety evaluations. The constant cries from the public of "if these employees are non-essential, why do they even have jobs?" drove me crazy. Um, because if you stop infrastructure safety evaluations for a few weeks, all you're going to do is get behind schedule, but if you stop them permanently, eventually you're going to have lost lives and disastrous economic consequences.

My agency is thankfully funded this time around, but all our partner agencies are unfunded so we've been experiencing project delays left and right. And I'm pretty sure the people processing our payroll aren't getting paid themselves, which must feel particularly crappy.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on January 09, 2019, 05:43:55 PM
This is all just so astounding from an outside perspective. It's just wrong on so many levels.  It's news worldwide, with most people finding Trump's behaviour just unbelievable. At what point do you decide to get a new president?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 06:13:33 PM
This is all just so astounding from an outside perspective. It's just wrong on so many levels.  It's news worldwide, with most people finding Trump's behaviour just unbelievable. At what point do you decide to get a new president?

November 2020*.  Unlike many parliamentary systems our elections dates are fixed.
There's a possibility that a president could be removed from office following impeachment, but it's such an intentionally high bar that it would be difficult, at best, and the presidency would remain with the GOP as the VP (Pence) would become president.

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 09, 2019, 06:28:06 PM
People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

I hadn't realized there were people who were both not getting paid AND legally barred from quitting and finding another job instead. This needs to be publicized more. I think it would hit an awful lot of people in a way the existing human interest reporting hasn't managed to.

I know it do to me.

Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.

The Senate has passed a bill that would allow the USCG to be paid through the treasury dept, but the House hasn't pass, or even introduced a counterpart. There's no mirror bill that will allow NOAA Corps officers to be paid, mostly because even the gov't doesn't know who the fuck they are. So that little bit of the long blue line is even further up shit creek.

Thanks for the support. If anyone feels like calling their congressional representative, particularly the house, on our behalf that would be a kindness. Because (you guessed it) it's also illegal for us to lobby on our own behalf.

I'm this minus the being in the Coast Guard so the Senate doesn't care.  Also I can quit.  That was an interesting conversation with my boss today when I mentioned I would if the shutdown last "months or even years" I would quit at some point.  I'm marginally FI (he doesn't know that part) so I have to ask myself why am I here doing this if it lasts Months.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 06:40:12 PM

I'm this minus the being in the Coast Guard so the Senate doesn't care.  Also I can quit.  That was an interesting conversation with my boss today when I mentioned I would if the shutdown last "months or even years" I would quit at some point.  I'm marginally FI (he doesn't know that part) so I have to ask myself why am I here doing this if it lasts Months.

Serious question - if the shutdown does last months would you stick it out just long enough to qualify for backpay (assuming they backpay employees as htey have in the past... no certainty with this adminstration). Would you get back-pay if you quit mid shutdown?  How would they know if you just quit today but told them you quit the first day back to work?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 09, 2019, 06:49:33 PM

I'm this minus the being in the Coast Guard so the Senate doesn't care.  Also I can quit.  That was an interesting conversation with my boss today when I mentioned I would if the shutdown last "months or even years" I would quit at some point.  I'm marginally FI (he doesn't know that part) so I have to ask myself why am I here doing this if it lasts Months.

Serious question - if the shutdown does last months would you stick it out just long enough to qualify for backpay (assuming they backpay employees as htey have in the past... no certainty with this adminstration). Would you get back-pay if you quit mid shutdown?  How would they know if you just quit today but told them you quit the first day back to work?

I am essential so at a minimum I would be paid for the days I have worked so far.  If I quit, I would officially resign with my supervisor.  (We have had several resignations not related to the shutdown since the 22nd).  Because I am close to FI, the shutdown could push me over the edge to pull the trigger even though I'm still a couple of years away from a FIRE where I would be completely comfortable.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 09, 2019, 08:15:02 PM
What percentage of overall GDP is USG spending?  Could this tantrum of Trump's throw us into the next recession?  I can see consumer spending tanking rapidly as family and friends of unpaid USG workers and contractors start reducing their own spending so that they can loan money to those not getting paychecks.

It's only 800,000 people so less than 0.3% of the population.  And they are still spending I guess, just slightly less.  No recession in sight according to most economic indicators.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 09, 2019, 08:30:14 PM
What percentage of overall GDP is USG spending?  Could this tantrum of Trump's throw us into the next recession?  I can see consumer spending tanking rapidly as family and friends of unpaid USG workers and contractors start reducing their own spending so that they can loan money to those not getting paychecks.

It's only 800,000 people so less than 0.3% of the population.  And they are still spending I guess, just slightly less.  No recession in sight according to most economic indicators.
Only about half the country works though, and a lot of the rest are children who rely on the first half. So it's closer to 0.6-0.8% of the workforce, based on how you account for part-timers, contractors, etc.

Also the effects are going to be mostly felt in a bunch of areas that rely heavily on federal employment. The DC area, all the little towns around national parks, etc.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 09, 2019, 08:34:01 PM
What percentage of overall GDP is USG spending?  Could this tantrum of Trump's throw us into the next recession?  I can see consumer spending tanking rapidly as family and friends of unpaid USG workers and contractors start reducing their own spending so that they can loan money to those not getting paychecks.

It's only 800,000 people so less than 0.3% of the population.  And they are still spending I guess, just slightly less. 

Contract employees outnumber direct federal workers about 2:1, so let's call it 2.4M total people not getting paid or about 1.5% of the total US workforce of 160M people (including both those with jobs and those looking for jobs). And those contractors have no hope of receiving back pay. Probably not enough to tip us into a recession single handedly, but it sure doesn't help.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 09:02:27 PM
While I don’t think this shutdown has enough oomph to push us into a recession, there are a lot of small businesses that will get hit pretty hard.  I heard a story the other day where they interviewed a small cafe/sandwich shop that was across the street from a large federal building - business was down something like 80% (no one was working across the street, so no one came in for coffee or lunch).

Daycare centers; lawn services, etc.  These aren’t needed if you are furloughed. If this goes on for a month I wonder how many of these type businesses with lots of federal worker customers will struggle.

WaPo had a nice graphic up detailing where the 800k affected workers lived based on state.  Lots in DC/MD/VA, but every state had clusters, and the businesses around those clusters could have a rough month/quarter.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sultan58 on January 09, 2019, 09:03:58 PM
This CNN article (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/politics/chuck-schumer-nancy-pelosi-trump/index.html) about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump? 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 09, 2019, 09:18:01 PM
This CNN article (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/politics/chuck-schumer-nancy-pelosi-trump/index.html) about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Too bad this shutdown continues.  When is the democrat obstructionism going to end?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 09, 2019, 09:22:50 PM
you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Relax, kids.  This is a thread specifically devoted to discussing the shutdown, which Trump called a meeting about today.  I think discussing that is fair game in this thread. 

If you feel my contributions are insufficiently substantial on this topic, feel free to contribute something more weighty yourself.  Perhaps an analysis of the GOP compromise plan forming tonight to fund the wall in exchange for actually fixing our immigration system, including DACA and H2-B visas?  If Trump wanted funding for a wall, he probably should have gotten it when his party had full control of both houses of Congress that have the power to allocate funding.  He couldn't get it then, so I'm not sure why he thinks democrats are going to give it to him when even republicans wouldn't.  Personally, I don't think this new compromise plan is offering nearly enough to entice democrats to vote for a wall, but I'll hold off until the two of you have your say on this topic, since it seems my contributions are deemed unworthy.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 09, 2019, 09:59:53 PM
This CNN article (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/politics/chuck-schumer-nancy-pelosi-trump/index.html) about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Too bad this shutdown continues.  When is the democrat obstructionism going to end?

I don’t think we can pin this one on the democrats, at least not up to this point.
Prior to the change in congress the republican senate passed a CR that would have avoided this, only to have that rejected by the WH.  Now we have the democratically controlled House passing legislation and the still-GOP held Senate signaling will do the same if allowed to hold a vote.
Then we have DJT walking out of a meeting that was being held for the sole purpose of trying to work out a solution.

Given that we have seen both the former and current congresses willing to end the shutdown, how do we get to blaming the democrats - who hold just one half of the legislature branch?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 10, 2019, 12:25:25 AM
I'm for the wall because I have family and friends who live and work at the bottom.  I genuinely feel sorry for those at the bottom in the US.  I read the negative messages on here about the wall and ask myself if I'm on the right side of this issue, but I can't ignore what I've seen and heard from family and friends.   I'm all over the map on this topic as a witness too, I've lived in California where many immigrants live, my wife is an immigrant and has only lived in the US 10 years, and I've already mentioned many of my family and friends are working retail, construction, trucking driving jobs.  They merely want to make a living wage and live in reasonably good housing, but they compete with people willing to work for very low wages and willing to live far below US standards just to survive in the US because life in the US is orderly compared to their homeland.  Many immigrates don't have degrees and aren't working at Google, but more often not very educated (again, I'm a witness to this), when petitioned, they are allowed into the US so there is a large supply of labor at the bottom that keeps wages down.  I lived in CA for 12 years, but I'm from MD and I currently live a few minutes outside Baltimore.  Not only do I think too much immigration hurts all people at the bottom, but I think it doubly hurts blacks.  "The rate for Blacks or African Americans was 6.2 percent, down by 1.1 percentage points from the October 2017 rate. The rate for people of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity was 4.4 percent in October 2018."*

The repubs were once viewed as aligning with business so bring on the immigrates to fuel corporations with cheap labor was the thinking.  That truly was how repubs were viewed and a google search could easily provide quotes from dems stating exactly that while dems spoke up for working conditions and protecting wages.  While the repub establishment can't claim they've cared much about workers, I see dems as caring a lot less than they once did.  DJT has turned the repubs upside down so it is hard to say what direction repubs will go after DJT is gone - they could double down on aligning with workers hoping to take electoral college votes from all the states DJT won in 2016 - that might be their strategy going forward. 

There are plenty of dems that made very bold anti-illegal immigrant statements prior to when DJT was elected.  I keep thinking their opposition to the wall is purely to oppose DJT no matter what he does since no matter what you think of DJT, he surely has upset the status quo in D.C. for both repubs and dems.  It is a corrupt city, corrupt to its core.
 
BTW Cesar Chavez, a labor union icon, opposed illegal immigrants and supported restricting immigration, because he thought immigrants weakened unions and kept wages low.  Illegal immigrants were used by farmers as strikebreakers.   Chavez knew a large supply of labor would weak the demand so affecting wages and more.  Chavez was a dem, dems marched and protested with him.  I can't forget this.

All of my support for the wall, is based on my support for workers at the bottom who already live in the US.  I'm for the people already here even if they are illegal.  I simply feel we need a wall or a steel barrier to slow down arrivals by making  it more difficult to cross.  Employ cameras and drones too, no problem, but I feel those things are simply identifying people who have already crossed.  Once they have crossed, it is difficult to return them it seems so first line of defense has to give those trying to enter a challenge physically. 

I want corporations to be starving for labor even if prices increase.  I want workers so powerful by there being fewer of them.  I want labor to be so low that corporations must develop their own training programs as well fund high school training programs.  I want American workers so rich that they'll decide to have more kids.  I want labor to be so strong corporations will provide free health care and onsite childcare.   I want corporations to be slaves to labor rather than labor being slaves to corporations.   

*https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/unemployment-rate-2-point-7-percent-for-people-ages-45-to-54-8-point-3-percent-for-ages-16-to-24-in-october-2018.htm
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: ROF Expat on January 10, 2019, 04:14:32 AM
I'm for the wall because I have family and friends who live and work at the bottom.  I genuinely feel sorry for those at the bottom in the US.  I read the negative messages on here about the wall and ask myself if I'm on the right side of this issue, but I can't ignore what I've seen and heard from family and friends.   I'm all over the map on this topic as a witness too, I've lived in California where many immigrants live, my wife is an immigrant and has only lived in the US 10 years, and I've already mentioned many of my family and friends are working retail, construction, trucking driving jobs.  They merely want to make a living wage and live in reasonably good housing, but they compete with people willing to work for very low wages and willing to live far below US standards just to survive in the US because life in the US is orderly compared to their homeland.  Many immigrates don't have degrees and aren't working at Google, but more often not very educated (again, I'm a witness to this), when petitioned, they are allowed into the US so there is a large supply of labor at the bottom that keeps wages down.  I lived in CA for 12 years, but I'm from MD and I currently live a few minutes outside Baltimore.  Not only do I think too much immigration hurts all people at the bottom, but I think it doubly hurts blacks.  "The rate for Blacks or African Americans was 6.2 percent, down by 1.1 percentage points from the October 2017 rate. The rate for people of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity was 4.4 percent in October 2018."*

The repubs were once viewed as aligning with business so bring on the immigrates to fuel corporations with cheap labor was the thinking.  That truly was how repubs were viewed and a google search could easily provide quotes from dems stating exactly that while dems spoke up for working conditions and protecting wages.  While the repub establishment can't claim they've cared much about workers, I see dems as caring a lot less than they once did.  DJT has turned the repubs upside down so it is hard to say what direction repubs will go after DJT is gone - they could double down on aligning with workers hoping to take electoral college votes from all the states DJT won in 2016 - that might be their strategy going forward. 

There are plenty of dems that made very bold anti-illegal immigrant statements prior to when DJT was elected.  I keep thinking their opposition to the wall is purely to oppose DJT no matter what he does since no matter what you think of DJT, he surely has upset the status quo in D.C. for both repubs and dems.  It is a corrupt city, corrupt to its core.
 
BTW Cesar Chavez, a labor union icon, opposed illegal immigrants and supported restricting immigration, because he thought immigrants weakened unions and kept wages low.  Illegal immigrants were used by farmers as strikebreakers.   Chavez knew a large supply of labor would weak the demand so affecting wages and more.  Chavez was a dem, dems marched and protested with him.  I can't forget this.

All of my support for the wall, is based on my support for workers at the bottom who already live in the US.  I'm for the people already here even if they are illegal.  I simply feel we need a wall or a steel barrier to slow down arrivals by making  it more difficult to cross.  Employ cameras and drones too, no problem, but I feel those things are simply identifying people who have already crossed.  Once they have crossed, it is difficult to return them it seems so first line of defense has to give those trying to enter a challenge physically. 

I want corporations to be starving for labor even if prices increase.  I want workers so powerful by there being fewer of them.  I want labor to be so low that corporations must develop their own training programs as well fund high school training programs.  I want American workers so rich that they'll decide to have more kids.  I want labor to be so strong corporations will provide free health care and onsite childcare.   I want corporations to be slaves to labor rather than labor being slaves to corporations.   

*https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/unemployment-rate-2-point-7-percent-for-people-ages-45-to-54-8-point-3-percent-for-ages-16-to-24-in-october-2018.htm

FenderBender,

I find your argument that allowing low wage labor into the country harms poor Americans by depressing wages to be rational and compelling.  I just don't think the answer is to build a wall. 

Building a wall might slow down some entry across our southern border (emphasis on might) at a cost of billions of dollars.  But it will do nothing to slow down those immigrants who came in legally with visas and decided to stay.  Right now, nobody knows the exact percentages of overstays vs illegal crossings, but older data indicates that it might be in the neighborhood of 50%.  We could make it harder to get a visa to the US, but it is already pretty difficult for most people and we don't want to discourage legitimate foreign visitors from coming here as tourists or students and spendng their money. 

More importantly, why build a wall in the hope of creating a demand for US labor when current immigration law legally brings in low skill, low wage labor under the H2 program?  Employers (including Trump) legally bring in low skill workers to do everything from agricultural work to working in hotels and resorts.  Their argument is that no Americans will fill their jobs, so they have to bring in unskilled foreign labor.  (Of course, if they paid a better wage, more Americans might be willing to do those jobs.)  If we build a wall and it actually slows down the number of illegal workers coming in, do you think those employers will raise their wages?  Or will they simply continue to insist that nobody will fill their jobs and demand more visas for foreign workers?   

As long as there are foreigners for whom moving to the US to do low-wage labor will provide a major step up in life and there are American employers who prefer to hire illegal labor rather than pay a wage that American citizens will accept, there's going to be both a supply and a demand for illegal immigration.  A wall isn't going to change that. 

If you want to break that supply and demand relationship, the effective thing would be to require that employers verify legal status of their employees and penalize them if they hire illegal immigrants.  This would cause the demand side to shrink incredibly quickly.  I also think we should eliminate visa programs for unskilled and low skilled workers.  There will be workers to do those jobs if the wages go up.  I do support H2 visas for highly skilled workers, but to me this means engineers, scientists, and eminent scholars.  It shouldn't mean fashion models (because there are no attractive Americans qualified to wear clothes?), not that I'm pointing any fingers... 

To me, this effort against illegal immigration looks a lot like our failed "war on drugs."  For all our efforts, street level cocaine prices in the US are down, not up over the years, because people will always find a way to supply what Americans will pay $100 per gram for.  If we really wanted to change that, we'd have to reduce demand.   Immigration is the same.  If you want to reduce illegal immigration, just stop employers from giving them jobs.  Don't waste time, money, and effort to build a wall to try to stop people from coming to America to take the jobs American employers continue to offer. 

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Khaetra on January 10, 2019, 04:22:07 AM
I know Sailor Sam isn't allowed to 'really comment' on this, but it really pissed me off to the point I found it offensive:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/01/09/coast-guard-families-told-they-can-have-garage-sales-cope-with-government-shutdown/?utm_term=.02b8aa209e70

Here's the official document: https://www.scribd.com/document/397140587/Managing-Furlough
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 05:23:27 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 05:49:56 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 06:05:54 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Unique User on January 10, 2019, 06:21:44 AM
This CNN article (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/politics/chuck-schumer-nancy-pelosi-trump/index.html) about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Too bad this shutdown continues.  When is the democrat obstructionism going to end?

@DreamFIRE - do you really believe all the stuff you are posting or are you trolling?  I'm really interested and wonder when you started listening to the Daily Caller, Breitbart and all the other thinly veiled hate rags.  I know many feel this is an echo chamber, but MMM seems to have a lot of high earning individuals and military and both of those groups are historically conservative.  I suspect that many are like me - a lifelong independent that skews toward the center - which makes me think we are more representative of the US population rather than an echo chamber. 

On a side note, I called my completely useless Rep (the most known pic of him is him napping while Congress is in session) and my somewhat useless Senators about the USCG bill.  As a reps of a coastal state, they should step up to the plate and take leadership on this issue. 

At my company, we have a few consultants contracted to the VA.  They are full time employees to us, so they are still getting paid.  I wonder about all the consultants to the USG through big firms like Accenture, Deloitte and Booz Allen. I would imagine it's the same although if there is a protracted shutdown, those FTEs will be let go, consultants that do not bill time are not kept on payroll. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 06:37:34 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 06:47:04 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.
Ok that's what I thought thanks for confirming.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: scottish on January 10, 2019, 06:48:55 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 07:02:19 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

It's fairly standard for full-time government workers to have to sign a contract stating that they will not take other employment or appointments, or will do so only with permission of their employer (currently on furlough).  It's partly to avoid conflict situations and partly to avoid corruption (people being paid by the government but getting away with not turning up and working elsewhere).
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 10, 2019, 07:08:15 AM
I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

The NOAA officer corps specifically (not all of NOAA), is one of the seven uniformed services, even though it's not one of the five branches of the military. So they operate under a lot more military-like rules than most federal workers and actually could be militarized by the president in an emergency.

I'll admit I had no idea either before we started this discussion.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 07:10:53 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

NOAA falls under the US Commerce department, but it does have its own uniformed branch, NOAA Corps.  Officers in the NOAA Corps are much like those in the USCG with regards to the shutdown.
Outside of the NOAA Corps there are both essential and non-essential federal employees at NOAA.  Remember how I said NOAA falls under the US Commerce Dept?  That's because it's most important function is tracking the weather, including storms and hurricanes, and providing forecasts, including the marine weather forecasts that all shipping (commerce!) relies on. It's also responsible for satellites and the emergency broadcast system. Those individuals are working without pay. NOAA is also responsible for all the fishing activity in US waters (which stretch 200 nm from the coast).

As for the practicality of 'finding other work'.  We are basically told we must be ready to report back to work in 24 hours.  Based on previous shutdowns an end to the shutdown could be hammered out in a single day. Keep in mind that the longest a shutdown has ever lasted previously was 21 days (we are in day 20).  Few employers are enthusiastic about taking on new people for very short contracts (payroll, paperwork, training etc takes time from the employer) which leaves side gigs like Uber - useful to some but rarely well paying.  As federal jobs tend to be tightly clustered you'll have hundreds or even thousands of workers in one area all able to take up these gig jobs. 

From personal experience what most shutdown workers seem to do is to get as much housework done as possible, basically 'clearing the decks' for the inevitable crap-storm that follows the end of a shutdown.  All that work that isn't being done now still needs to get done, and the weeks following a shutdown are miserable as paperwork and projects and data analysis have all piled up in everyone's absence. Experiments that were prematurely halted have to be re-started. So salaried full time employees (FTEs) wind up working extra hours which thye aren't paid for to play catch-up.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 07:50:50 AM
Meanwhile in our shutdown story we are supposed to leave for a vacation that has been paid for since last year prior to my wife starting with the federal government.

According to the information from OPM she is not supposed to take vacation as I read it since if she is called back up she is supposed to start back the next day or be considered AWOL.

We will be out of the country on a boat with no access to phone or email unless we pay a crazy amount of money and will not have the ability to hop on a flight back to report to work.

So I guess we will roll the dice and go, hopefully the shutdown ends before we leave or after we return. My wife is going to email her boss to remind them that she will be on vacation.

If the government opens while we are gone hopefully she has a job when she comes back.

Day 4 wife working at sub shop (pays enough to cover our groceries)

I am picking up some extra OT at my regular job to help out with a little extra cash for the vacation.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BuildingFrugalHabits on January 10, 2019, 08:16:52 AM
Have fun on your trip.  Did she fill out a leave request before the shutdown?  If so, it seems like they should still be able to honor that and keeping the supervisor informed is a good idea. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 08:24:32 AM
Have fun on your trip.  Did she fill out a leave request before the shutdown?  If so, it seems like they should still be able to honor that and keeping the supervisor informed is a good idea.
No she was told that nobody uses the request system and to just email her manager when she is planning to take vacation.

At least this is what I was told.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: charis on January 10, 2019, 08:28:36 AM
According to the information from OPM she is not supposed to take vacation as I read it since if she is called back up she is supposed to start back the next day or be considered AWOL.

I haven't heard that approved leave periods are being cancelled like this.  Did you actually check this understanding with her employer?  I know a few feds with upcoming vacations who are not under the same impression.  If the shutdown ends during an approved leave period, they return to normal status and thus are still on leave.

cross-posted with this, which sounds like it could be a problem:

Have fun on your trip.  Did she fill out a leave request before the shutdown?  If so, it seems like they should still be able to honor that and keeping the supervisor informed is a good idea.
No she was told that nobody uses the request system and to just email her manager when she is planning to take vacation.

At least this is what I was told.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Peachtea on January 10, 2019, 08:44:26 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

It's fairly standard for full-time government workers to have to sign a contract stating that they will not take other employment or appointments, or will do so only with permission of their employer (currently on furlough).  It's partly to avoid conflict situations and partly to avoid corruption (people being paid by the government but getting away with not turning up and working elsewhere).

I’m civilian at a non-military agency. Our furlough notices specifically reminded us that we are not allowed to engage in outside employment during the furlough unless it had been approved before the furlough. So those who had a pre-approved side hustle can do it during the shutdown. Finding other temp work, not allowed, because the people who approve outside employment are also furloughed. It’s a conflicts check. Same with pro-bono. Can only do the pro-bono activity that was already approved. So I’m left with working on my blog (that’s for fun, doesn’t make any money) and volunteering for with the one org I’m already approved to do.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 09:01:30 AM
Upthread there was some discussion about the savings/costs of a government shutdown.  Previous shutdowns have wound up costing the government (and by extension the US taxpayer) billions. 
In 2013 the 16 day shutdown was estimated to have cost around $2.5B in backpay and benefits, plus shaving $2B-6B off that quarter's GDP.  As Maizeman calculated, the tax revenue from that amount is considerable - for 2013 it was estimated to have cost the government between $500MM to $1.6B.

In sum, the combined costs of this shutdown seem very likely to eclipse the ~$4B difference between what congress has offered and what the WH is demanding.  It seems certain that the revenue lost will exceed $5B if this shutdown drags on past the 1 month mark.

As no shutdown has lasted longer than 3 weeks and each shutdown is different in terms of exactly how much of the government is furloughed extrapolations are a bit dicey.  But I see costs as only accelerating the longer it lasts as the effects will go from 'inconvenient' to 'seriously detrimental' for many different entities.

A good primer on the cost of shutdowns: https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/01/21/why-the-government-shutdown-actually-costs-money-000624 (https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/01/21/why-the-government-shutdown-actually-costs-money-000624)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: dude on January 10, 2019, 09:07:19 AM
You know what would end this fucking thing TOMORROW? If TSA agents called in sick EN MASSE -- the whole fucking lot of them. A nationwide airport shutdown for even one day would cause total fucking chaos, and then maybe the rest of America could appreciate the fucking bullshit much of the federal workforce is going through, especially those "excepted" employees who are working but won't collect their paychecks this weekend.

All you Trump knob-gobblers supporters who think this shit is right, or support his racist fucking policies are full of shit. "The Wall" has absolutely NOTHING to do with border security and EVERYTHING to do with appeasing the racist Trump "base," i.e., YOU. Any idiotic arguments to the contrary, or attempts to dismiss these grounds, completely ignores everything this guy has said and done for the past 3 years (campaign + time in office). Hollow rationalizations masking the uncomfortable truth that Trump supporters simply don't want any more brown people (from "shithole countries") in this country (though I'm sure you chose to ignore your Dear Leader's comments about why we can't have more immigrants from countries like Norway). Polls show border towns in the U.S. overwhelmingly do not want a stupid fucking wall. And nearly 70% of Americans do not support shutting down the government over this idiotic "wall."
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 09:12:49 AM
My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.
Ok that's what I thought thanks for confirming.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Glad you recognise my mustachian passion for efficiency - one person solving the problems of 2.4m people (employees, contractors and their families) is far more efficient than 2.4m people each trying to find their own solutions.  Also fits in with small government, effective government, reducing financial waste, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 09:39:25 AM
My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.
Ok that's what I thought thanks for confirming.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Glad you recognise my mustachian passion for efficiency - one person solving the problems of 2.4m people (employees, contractors and their families) is far more efficient than 2.4m people each trying to find their own solutions.  Also fits in with small government, effective government, reducing financial waste, etc. etc.
Efficiency would have been resolving immigration the last 1000 times it has come up as a hot issue way before Trump was ever elected to office but BOTH parties would rather fight and kick the can down the road so they have leverage / distractions for the next cycle.

The particulars change over time but the root of the issue remains and all parties have failed to deal with the issue for as long as I can remember.

But hey, keep the left and right moving farther and farther apart getting angrier and angrier at each other further separating the country / political climate and further giving the two parties more power.

Meanwhile I will continue to vote for whomever is best for the country and our future despite what party they are affiliated with and demand that they all work together for what is best for the country instead of buying into their party lines.

Schumer, Pelosi, Trump, McConnell and all of them need to be held accountable by everyone instead of throwing stones at each other.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Davnasty on January 10, 2019, 09:57:27 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.

I'm coming back to this quote as your conversation has turned to another topic, but I do agree with the_fixer's original point. Of course the best solution is for the shutdown to end, but in the meantime the people who are giving these suggestions to furloughed employees have no control over that. Their suggestions may feel offensive and lack utility for most individuals, but why get angry at someone who's just trying to help?

If the CEO of your company declares there's no longer room in the budget for pens and then you supervisor hands out some colorful markers they found in the conference room, would you be offended that they're at least looking for a solution?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 10:07:51 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.

I'm coming back to this quote as your conversation has turned to another topic, but I do agree with the_fixer's original point. Of course the best solution is for the shutdown to end, but in the meantime the people who are giving these suggestions to furloughed employees have no control over that. Their suggestions may feel offensive and lack utility for most individuals, but why get angry at someone who's just trying to help?

If the CEO of your company declares there's no longer room in the budget for pens and then you supervisor hands out some colorful markers they found in the conference room, would you be offended that they're at least looking for a solution?

Well, the pens example is a like for like, isn't it?  Babysitting isn't going to pay the mortgage, that's where the disconnect is.  Low level employees being told by someone who is inevitably higher in the organisation and better paid that they can solve the financial problems unnecessarily caused by people being paid many times what they are by babysitting is pretty offensive.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: PhilB on January 10, 2019, 10:24:27 AM
Whether you think the wall is a good idea or not, the key point for me is that if you pay the ransom demanded by Trump when he holds the country to ransom this time, what new ransom will he demand next time?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 10, 2019, 10:25:43 AM
Schumer, Pelosi, Trump, McConnell and all of them need to be held accountable by everyone instead of throwing stones at each other.

Great idea.  I hold Schumer and Pelosi responsible for passing budget bills that open the government and fund border security, which they have done.

I hold McConnell responsible for refusing to advance those bills in the Senate, even after they've already passed with unanimous consent.

I hold Trump responsible for stopping the bipartisan congressional budget setting process by threatening a veto.  Because that's what he did.

Then I hold McConnell responsible a second time, for refusing to allow the Senate to override Trump's veto with a 2/3 majority.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Davnasty on January 10, 2019, 10:29:41 AM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.

I'm coming back to this quote as your conversation has turned to another topic, but I do agree with the_fixer's original point. Of course the best solution is for the shutdown to end, but in the meantime the people who are giving these suggestions to furloughed employees have no control over that. Their suggestions may feel offensive and lack utility for most individuals, but why get angry at someone who's just trying to help?

If the CEO of your company declares there's no longer room in the budget for pens and then you supervisor hands out some colorful markers they found in the conference room, would you be offended that they're at least looking for a solution?

Well, the pens example is a like for like, isn't it?  Babysitting isn't going to pay the mortgage, that's where the disconnect is.  Low level employees being told by someone who is inevitably higher in the organisation and better paid that they can solve the financial problems unnecessarily caused by people being paid many times what they are by babysitting is pretty offensive.

It may not be a perfect analogy but I would say no, not like for like. If I sign a contract with a purple dry erase, my partners might start to question my professionalism. If I'm taking notes during a meeting, I might not be able to keep up.

Anyway, that's not really the point. My point is that the person offering help isn't the one who caused the problem. I feel being offended that they are offering a solution (and yes, the "solutions" may be misguided and inadequate) is misdirected anger.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 10:32:52 AM
You know what would end this fucking thing TOMORROW? If TSA agents called in sick EN MASSE -- the whole fucking lot of them. A nationwide airport shutdown for even one day would cause total fucking chaos, and then maybe the rest of America could appreciate the fucking bullshit much of the federal workforce is going through, especially those "excepted" employees who are working but won't collect their paychecks this weekend.


I hear echos of the Air Traffic Controller strike of 1981 under Reagan.  The ATCs went on strike, and Reagan used his executive power to fire 11,000 of them that refused to work, a decision that was later upheld by the courts.
Despite the strike and firing occurring the busy summer travel season it didn't completely shut down the system because there was already a contingency plan in place, and the military provided ATCs to supplement supervisors and non-striking civilians to keep the airports running (though there were lots and lots of delays with flights).

I imagine if all the TSA agents called in sick we'd see something similar - mass firings, emergency installation of military police to fill the void and it would all get rubber stamped by SCOTUS.

TSA agents can't strike. They can't organize to disrupt travel. They can be imprisoned if they do. That's just the way it is, and it's been the law since the 1950s, and has been upheld by the SCOTUS several times.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 10, 2019, 10:46:17 AM
So we're rapidly approaching the 21 day all time record for longest government shutdown in US history, and Trump is saying he is "almost definitely" going to declare a national emergency.  Which, as we've previously discusses, is probably his only face-saving way to re-open the government without getting any border wall funding.

I'm still trying to decided if the 21 day record is a good motivator or not.  Like is Trump eager to avoid being responsible for the longest shutdown in history, or is he eager to BE responsible for the longest shutdown in history?  Like he has the biggest hands, and the best words, and the tallest buildings, and he has spent his life counterfactually bragging about having all kinds of personal records.  Is "longest shutdown" just another shiny prize for his metaphorical trophy case?  Or is it something he fears will tarnish he reputation?  I'm still on the fence on this one. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 11:07:55 AM
I'm still trying to decided if the 21 day record is a good motivator or not.  Like is Trump eager to avoid being responsible for the longest shutdown in history, or is he eager to BE responsible for the longest shutdown in history?  Like he has the biggest hands, and the best words, and the tallest buildings, and he has spent his life counterfactually bragging about having all kinds of personal records.  Is "longest shutdown" just another shiny prize for his metaphorical trophy case?  Or is it something he fears will tarnish he reputation?  I'm still on the fence on this one.

Thankfully (?) we won't have to wonder for long.  If the shutdown continues past Friday we can be assured that Trump didn't care much about having the longest shutdown on his watch.  If it ends suddenly tomorrow (particularly if a compromise is reached) I will be convinced that he feared the hit that the 'longest shutdown in history' would do to his self-proclaimed title of 'the greatest negotiator'.

Sadly, given his previous declarations I tend to think he won't be deterred by adding "longest shutdown" to his political record.  But then again I'm in a very pessimistic mood as the effects on this shutdown screw over my colleagues.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 11:14:46 AM


Schumer, Pelosi, Trump, McConnell and all of them need to be held accountable by everyone instead of throwing stones at each other.

Great idea.  I hold Schumer and Pelosi responsible for passing budget bills that open the government and fund border security, which they have done.

I hold McConnell responsible for refusing to advance those bills in the Senate, even after they've already passed with unanimous consent.

I hold Trump responsible for stopping the bipartisan congressional budget setting process by threatening a veto.  Because that's what he did.

Then I hold McConnell responsible a second time, for refusing to allow the Senate to override Trump's veto with a 2/3 majority.

I do not disagree other than Schumer and Pelosi are just as dug in and childish as Trump, they have decided and announced multiple times that they will not put any money towards the wall. I see this as them not doing it becuase they feel it is the proper thing but simply to disrupt Trump and stop him at all costs just as Trump is unwilling to pass anything without wall funding.

This is a disservice to the American people and the Immigrants caught in the middle. We elect leaders to lead, discuss, compromise and come up with real solutions that represent the will of the entire country and not to play a big game of chicken while waiting to see who will blink first.

Some people want a wall others want open borders and I am guessing the majority of people (like me) are somewhere between the two extremes and we should all be represented and thus we all compromise a little but that is not the case here.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: swinginbeef on January 10, 2019, 11:27:01 AM
I do not disagree other than Schumer and Pelosi are just as dug in and childish as Trump

I agree with this but I don't think it's a "stop Trump at all costs" thing. Watching them fight off smiles in their little press conferences makes me think they believe a strong majority of Americans agree with them so they just keep feeding Trump rope until he hangs himself. Keep poking at him, believing that the more frustrated he gets, the dumber he looks. "That's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off..."
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 11:31:37 AM


Schumer, Pelosi, Trump, McConnell and all of them need to be held accountable by everyone instead of throwing stones at each other.

Great idea.  I hold Schumer and Pelosi responsible for passing budget bills that open the government and fund border security, which they have done.

I hold McConnell responsible for refusing to advance those bills in the Senate, even after they've already passed with unanimous consent.

I hold Trump responsible for stopping the bipartisan congressional budget setting process by threatening a veto.  Because that's what he did.

Then I hold McConnell responsible a second time, for refusing to allow the Senate to override Trump's veto with a 2/3 majority.

I do not disagree other than Schumer and Pelosi are just as dug in and childish as Trump, they have decided and announced multiple times that they will not put any money towards the wall. I see this as them not doing it becuase they feel it is the proper thing but simply to disrupt Trump and stop him at all costs just as Trump is unwilling to pass anything without wall funding.

I do not understand how passing a CR bill which includes additional money for border security could be considered 'childish' on the part of Schumer and Pelosi.

On a similar note, could you explain to me why additional funding for anything should be an uncompromisable point when seeking a continuing resolution?  From my perspective such a project should be part of a bill debated and passed by congress.  Ideally it would be part of a budget.  That's one of the core duties of congress outlined in the US Constitution (Section 8, clause 1: taxing and spending). We had a GOP controlled House and Senate for 2 years, and they did not authorize money for a border wall.  Full funding was even offered at one point in exchange for a solution to DACA, but that got rejected. Indeed, we've had two earlier shutdowns which both ended with no border wall funding.

If Congress has been unwilling to provide funding for a wall for the last two years, and the WH rejected a compromise to grant 5x the funding it now seeks, how does the argument that we must have border wall money before the shutdown can be ended hold water? Why is it imperative now when it was not critical during the shutdowns in January and Februrary of last year, nor important enough to pass through congress under normal spending bills at any point during the previous two years?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 11:38:52 AM
I understand that last year's bill provided 1 point something billion towards a wall that hasn't been spent.  Is that money still available without further authorisation?

One way out might be to have a Bill that says "X billion for border security to include physical infrastructure where this provides best value for money as audited by [independent auditor]".   I mean, there's all sorts of ways out of this impasse provided you have a President with a modicum of intelligence and negotiating savvy or Presidential advisers with good sense and the tiniest bit of influence over him.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 10, 2019, 11:46:03 AM
I do not disagree other than Schumer and Pelosi are just as dug in and childish as Trump, they have decided and announced multiple times that they will not put any money towards the wall.

Schumer and Pelosi both have decades of experience in congress in finding compromise solutions.  If Trump doesn't just give up, and declare a national emergency that he knows will get struck down in the courst, then they will find a way to give him at least some wall funding in exchange for other fixes.  The problem isn't that the democrats aren't willing to give him any wall funding, because I think they will under the right conditions, it's that republicans haven't yet offered them anything in return.  This is supposed to be a negotiation, not a list of demands.  If you want billions for wall funding, you're supposed to offer billions for a democratic priority to go with it.  That way all sides get to declare victory (except for the budget deficit people, who always seem to lose these negotiations).

Quote
Some people want a wall others want open borders

I've never met a single person who wants "open borders".  That's just a catch phrase, a straw man, a worst case scenario that far-right nationalists apply to anyone who recognizes the complexity of our immigration system, in order to paint them as evil.  No one is suggesting tearing down existing walls.  No is asking to allow terrorists or drugs into the country.  Everyone agrees that our border needs protecting, it's just that some people only want an ineffective symbolic border wall and some people want real immigration reform that controls who comes to America.  I think the resolution to this shutdown is going to make congressional democrats look like the responsible party that actually wants to protect our borders, and make Trump look stupid for asking for an ineffective solution that his most racist supports think is funny. 

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Slow2FIRE on January 10, 2019, 11:49:03 AM
Now I hear that the FDA will stop food inspections. Maybe a few dozen e-coli related deaths will make an impact on Trump to accept the Dems (very reasonable IMHO) border security package but I fear it won't . When you have the bigliest hands of everyone everywhere you don't need to back down. Plus apparently the 800,000 unpaid feds understand that getting paid is not as important as building a wall so completely support him and are happy to go without pay.

The "highest risk" locations will continue to get food inspections.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Slow2FIRE on January 10, 2019, 11:50:18 AM

Quote
Some people want a wall others want open borders

I've never met a single person who wants "open borders".  That's just a catch phrase, a straw man, a worst case scenario that far-right nationalists apply to anyone who recognizes the complexity of our immigration system, in order to paint them as evil. 

I have heard "open borders" stated by a few (very few) libertarians.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SKL-HOU on January 10, 2019, 12:16:23 PM
This is absolute madness from an outsider point of view. I can't imagine many kiwi staff would work for nothing. Mind you, I can't actually imagine our gov shutting down. If it did, though, I guarantee it would be treated as BBQ days. No one would be at work.

As a former Aussie public servant, I remain equally baffled - especially for the people who are told they still need to come in. I mean, work is getting paid to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. If I’m not getting paid*, then why would any employer think they could demand I work anyway? I certainly wouldn’t be, not unless they have a legal order conscripting me to work for free.

*here meaning a guaranteed payment in a timely manner and as per the conditions under which I accepted my job
A lot of the jobs are considered "essential" and it would be dangerous for the public if they shutdown. Think Air Traffic Controllers, Federal prison guards and other law enforcement fields, federal medical facilities, first responders, etc. I was in the Coast Guard and went thru a few short term shutdowns and had to continue working with no pay. It was a PITA but pay was retroactive...eventually. The longest shutdown I can remember was about a month in the mid-1990s. Most others have been short lived.

I understand the mechanism (identifying the necessary employees); I don’t understand how threatening people’s jobs to work for pay they don’t know for sure if, let alone when, they will receive is right or justified.

Employment is a two way street; the employee does a job and the employer pays them. If the employer (in this case the federal government) isn’t keeping up its side of the deal, then why is there an obligation for the employee to do so?

Besides, it’s not like the money can’t be sourced, it’s that various individuals and factions are refusing to do so for their own reasons. Well, not paying people has (or should have) consequences; why do politicians get to be protected from the political blowback of them at the expense of federal employees?

And that’s without considering that not paying people who still need to pay their own bills substantially increases the risk of corruption. But, hey. It’s not like those people forced to work for uncertain pay are the people in the crucial positions and who could do the most damage if their behaviour was increasingly corrupt.

Ah well, at least it’s not my problem.

I agree - employment is a transaction. If I don't get paid, I'm not working, end of story. I may offer to volunteer my services in one respect or another, but I won't be compelled to do so by some fat orange manchild on a personal crusade.

Now I hear that he's threatening to keep this shut down going for an extended period. There's something horrendously wrong with a system where one person can hold an entire country to ransom. He's not frickin Henry the Eighth.
Well, it's two people. McConnel won't put the house bill to a vote.

In theory, the Congress can override a veto. It won't happen anytime soon.

Madness. You know, once upon a time the USA was an enviable place to be from. Now my American colleagues tell people they're Canadian. Maybe they'll end up re-branding themselves entirely, like how people from Iran and Iraq have become Persian. Kind of sad....

I haven't finished reading the whole thread so maybe someone already corrected you. People from Iraq are not Persians, were never Persians. People from Iran were always Persians.
(I am not from either country)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kimmarg on January 10, 2019, 12:43:42 PM
I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

The NOAA officer corps specifically (not all of NOAA), is one of the seven uniformed services, even though it's not one of the five branches of the military. So they operate under a lot more military-like rules than most federal workers and actually could be militarized by the president in an emergency.

I'll admit I had no idea either before we started this discussion.
I believe NOAA members can quit/walk off the job with no ramifications other than for forfiture of pay (although there may be some other ramifications I'm not aware of). The coast guard service member, like the other armed forces, can't with out being charged with AWOL (which carry very stiff penalties) and eventually (after 30 days AWOL) desertion - which can carry some pretty hefty prison terms and of course a death sentence if it happens during a war.

While of course I'm using extreme hyperbole and this wouldn't happen in a long shutdown where the CG would eventually find funding to pay it's members (maybe the DoD would temporarily fund it) its still an interesting "twist" on essential employees. I'm ex-coast guard myself but only had a few very short term shutdowns while in. The single kidless young debt and mortgage free service member usually does OK because they can eat and sleep at their unit, those with young families and a non-working spouse who are dependent have a rough time. Food stamps help as do other military service aid organizations in times like this.

So NOAA civilian employees can quit, at least in theory. NOAA corps officers cannot without dealing with the aforementioned AWOL crap.  That said most NOAA employees work in a fairly specific field (fisheries management or weather) where the Federal government is the major employer and there aren't a lot of other jobs around so in practice it would be hard to pull off. I mean they could quit and start working at Walmart but not in a similar field/pay scale/benefits.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 10, 2019, 12:49:04 PM
I hope you are right Sol and they can work out a deal that helps with the issue, it just seems like they as just as proud and happy to say no as Trump is.

As for the open borders and huge wall comment I was trying to point out that we have people at all levels of the spectrum and that not everyone is going to be happy that is part of compromise.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Blonde Lawyer on January 10, 2019, 01:07:10 PM
I think Trump wants the longest shutdown record.

The part that is blowing my mind is that you need to be financially sound to get a security clearance.  The idea is, we don't want people at risk of accepting bribes.  Then you take the majority of federal law enforcement and put them on work without pay status for 20 days.  Some of those people might start getting a little desperate.  This is a major security concern.

Secret service is in work without pay status.  This is foolish. 

Also, thanks for the info about the Coast Guard.  Not something I had thought about before.

I'm also interested to see how the union FLSA claim pays out.  Private employers get sanctioned for late paychecks.  In my state it is double damages plus attorneys' fees.  Why should the government be exempt?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Nickel on January 10, 2019, 01:08:42 PM
So we're rapidly approaching the 21 day all time record for longest government shutdown in US history, and Trump is saying he is "almost definitely" going to declare a national emergency.  Which, as we've previously discusses, is probably his only face-saving way to re-open the government without getting any border wall funding.

I'm still trying to decided if the 21 day record is a good motivator or not.  Like is Trump eager to avoid being responsible for the longest shutdown in history, or is he eager to BE responsible for the longest shutdown in history?  Like he has the biggest hands, and the best words, and the tallest buildings, and he has spent his life counterfactually bragging about having all kinds of personal records.  Is "longest shutdown" just another shiny prize for his metaphorical trophy case?  Or is it something he fears will tarnish he reputation?  I'm still on the fence on this one.

My prediction: If Trump does not get a face-saving compromise, he'll declare a face saving emergency (longest shutdown in history is the trigger), announce his intent to "start" reallocating funds from other sources to build the wall, reopen the government, and wait for either Congress or the courts to bail him out.  (Both parties in Congress are terrified about the long term ramifications of this potential executive power grab, and are unlikely to let it happen or continue if it does, so some kind of mutual, face-saving compromise would happen eventually).

In the unlikely event that Congress fails to fix it, and if the courts say that his "emergency" end run around Article 1, Section 8 is OK, he'll say he was vindicated.  If the courts say that the Constitution does not allow him to use a declaration of an emergency as a pretext to misappropriate other funds build a wall without authorization from Congress, Trump can then tell his supporters that the deep state liberals and idiot judges are sacrificing the "safety" of our nation (remember his ban on Muslims), and he will keep fighting (with tweets). 

Trump does not care about a wall.  He cares about using it as propaganda to manipulate his supporters. 

Nobody (other than a few crazy libertarians) wants "open borders."  By changing the term "wall" (paid for by Mexico!) to a less concrete concept of "border security," Trump and the GOP have already dumped the ingredients for compromise into the bowl.  Everybody wants "border security."  Perhaps it can be provided in part by maintaining, improving and extending some of the current walls and "barriers," most of which we would have done anyway. If Trump needs to brag about a big number, just relabel some of the giant military budget as "border security" and call it a win.   

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 01:23:00 PM
By changing the term "wall" (paid for by Mexico!) to a less concrete concept of "border security," Trump and the GOP have already dumped the ingredients for compromise into the bowl.  Everybody wants "border security."  Perhaps it can be provided in part by maintaining, improving and extending some of the current walls and "barriers," most of which we would have done anyway. If Trump needs to brag about a big number, just relabel some of the giant military budget as "border security" and call it a win.   
I see what you did there.

I've been spending an inordinate amount of time trying to determine how this could end quickly.  I personally think the best shot is for Dems to offer the full $5.7B for 'border security' with stipulations that it goes to personnel and drones and fortifying existing barriers but not to put barriers where they don't already exist.  Trump can crow about getting 'every penny I asked for" and make a show of turning a few miles of 20' razor-wire-topped chain link into steel slats with spikes.  The administration avoids the deluge of court filings from trying to use eminent domain on virgin (i.e. non-barrier) sections of the border and Schumer and Pelosi can tell the Dems that they held their ground on Trump's 'wall'.

Congress seems ready to pass a range of CRs - lets see if someone can convince DJT to accept an increase in border security funds with no new miles of wall.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: x02947 on January 10, 2019, 02:10:37 PM
What's the over/under on the size of the invasion caravan that will magically appear next?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Khaetra on January 10, 2019, 02:36:47 PM
What's the over/under on the size of the invasion caravan that will magically appear next?

Earlier today he was already touting the next 'caravan' that's supposedly organizing in Honduras and headed here.

It's not about The Wall, really.  The Dems offered a huge sum (I think $25B) and in return they wanted protection for the Dreamers.  He turned it down.  He had ample opportunity while having control of both the House and Senate to get money for his wall, yet only RIGHT NAO is it an emergency (how convenient since the Dems now have the House).  This is a man-baby who has probably never been told no and now is not only being told no, but being told no by a WOMAN!  It's more about control and I blame the GOP for not marching into the Oval and telling him to his face that not only is shutting down the Gov't a bad idea, but hell no pal, it ain't happening.  Border security yes, wall no.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: laserlady on January 10, 2019, 02:45:49 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 02:58:13 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: laserlady on January 10, 2019, 03:10:57 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 03:24:27 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 03:41:57 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Acorns on January 10, 2019, 04:03:32 PM

TSA agents can't strike. They can't organize to disrupt travel. They can be imprisoned if they do. That's just the way it is, and it's been the law since the 1950s, and has been upheld by the SCOTUS several times.

TSA has only been around since Nov 2001, as a part of the Department of Homeland Security which was established in response to the attacks of 9/11. I have been trying to remember what type of security preceded the TSA checks we have become used to (I was in my late teens when 9/11 occurred, and had only flown a handful of times). Was there any screening of passengers and carry on luggage?

I ran into a friend of mine and her husband at the gym today, he is a "non-essential" FAA employee. He seemed to be enjoying his time off, but they are not the paycheck to paycheck type.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Peachtea on January 10, 2019, 04:05:07 PM
I'm also interested to see how the union FLSA claim pays out.  Private employers get sanctioned for late paychecks.  In my state it is double damages plus attorneys' fees.  Why should the government be exempt?

The government is not exempt and lost a FLSA lawsuit over the 2013 shutdown. However, it took years to go through court, a final decision wasn’t issued until 2017. I don’t think everyone has received their damages from that lawsuit yet, so the wheels of justice are incredibly slow. Plus, double damages is only x2 minimum wage (and overtime) not paid, so for those with no overtime it’s not a ton of extra money.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 10, 2019, 04:05:34 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 10, 2019, 04:07:31 PM
What's the over/under on the size of the invasion caravan that will magically appear next?

Way too many, and they could waltz right in if the democrats had their way.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: OtherJen on January 10, 2019, 04:20:55 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html

Yes. This also affects distillery labels. I know it's humorous to many here, but we actually know several people in the craft beverage industry. They can't sell product until the labels are approved, and beer doesn't have an indefinite shelf life. It could be a decent amount of lost revenue for small businesses.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 05:09:41 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html

Yes. This also affects distillery labels. I know it's humorous to many here, but we actually know several people in the craft beverage industry. They can't sell product until the labels are approved, and beer doesn't have an indefinite shelf life. It could be a decent amount of lost revenue for small businesses.
Is there anyway I could be of service?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Pizzabrewer on January 10, 2019, 05:23:42 PM
What's the over/under on the size of the invasion caravan that will magically appear next?

Way too many, and they could waltz right in if the democrats had their way.

Proof that this is a troll.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 10, 2019, 05:33:56 PM
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

I'm not the military.  As I mentioned I can quit my job.  But I am essential so I am technically not allowed to take leave and if I don't show up for work I fall under our Agency's AWOL regulation which does not mean I get thrown in military prison but I would essentially forfeit 2x my pay for hours worked.  NOAA and parts of the Public Health Service are set up military style.   
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 10, 2019, 05:47:15 PM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html

Yes. This also affects distillery labels. I know it's humorous to many here, but we actually know several people in the craft beverage industry. They can't sell product until the labels are approved, and beer doesn't have an indefinite shelf life. It could be a decent amount of lost revenue for small businesses.

Yes, it's a big local business story in West Michigan Home to Founders, Bells and New Holland along with dozens of other medium to large craft breweries.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Omy on January 10, 2019, 05:53:53 PM
Is there anybody in this group who is for open borders? The constant insistence that all democrats want open borders is simply false. But like trump, if you tell the lie long enough it becomes "fact".
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 10, 2019, 06:08:03 PM

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely.

Your point is on the top of your head.

It this is supposed to be some sort of insult it's a rather weak one.
Could we stick to the topic at hand and follow the forum rules please?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BicycleB on January 10, 2019, 06:52:14 PM

edit:  My partner, who is very astute, believes that this sort of situation is the inevitable consequence of political party affiliations.  McConnell has subjugated the will of the Congress to protect the individual of the Executive, because he's from the same party as the Executive.  He won't allow Congress to jam Trump up like that, making him look bad by overriding a veto even if it was 100% unanimous in both houses, because he serves the republican party first and foremost, and his branch of government second.  Her argument is that party affiliation has completely overwritten the inter-branch power balances laid out in the constitution, and that all of that hard work our framers did in structuring our three co-equal branches is irrelevant because political parties have effectively created a winner-take-all 50% majority situation in which 1 senator with 49 party members behind him controls the entire US government for the purpose of protecting their party. 

Bingo
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 10, 2019, 07:01:59 PM

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely.

Your point is on the top of your head.

It this is supposed to be some sort of insult it's a rather weak one.

No, the insult was a couple posts prior to that.  I can think of some good insults, but that's not what I'm on this forum for.

I would like to stay on topic, which is what I mentioned earlier when people were bringing up unrelated comments about racism.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 10, 2019, 07:40:21 PM
Is there anybody in this group who is for open borders? The constant insistence that all democrats want open borders is simply false. But like trump, if you tell the lie long enough it becomes "fact".
Hell no. My ability to earn a large income is largely predicated on how difficult it is for people with the same skills to immigrate here. If the US ever improves its terrible image abroad or implements a skill-based immigration system, I'm fucked.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 10, 2019, 08:44:24 PM
I'm for immigration anywhere on the planet as a basic human right.  Implement some basic controls at the borders, but don't deny humans the right to ambulate as they please.

Trump himself is pretty much a wall. Who the hell would want to enter such a messed up country, unless they were just passing through on their way to Canada?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 10, 2019, 08:48:44 PM
I'm for immigration anywhere on the planet as a basic human right. 

To visit?  Sure thing.

But citizenship confers certain rights and privileges that are not universally available to everyone else.  I don't think everyone should be granted automatic citizenship in any given country just by virtue of walking there.

But in between anyone being able to visit at will, and anyone being granted citizenship, is the case of people who want to come here temporarily to work.  If they are entering into a freely agreed upon contract of services for wages, I'm not sure the free market peeps think the government should be intervening to forbid it.  That's the real questions of "illegal" immigration, whether or not these people are allowed to come here and work or not.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 10, 2019, 08:50:25 PM
So we're rapidly approaching the 21 day all time record for longest government shutdown in US history, and Trump is saying he is "almost definitely" going to declare a national emergency.  Which, as we've previously discusses, is probably his only face-saving way to re-open the government without getting any border wall funding.

I'm still trying to decided if the 21 day record is a good motivator or not.  Like is Trump eager to avoid being responsible for the longest shutdown in history, or is he eager to BE responsible for the longest shutdown in history?  Like he has the biggest hands, and the best words, and the tallest buildings, and he has spent his life counterfactually bragging about having all kinds of personal records.  Is "longest shutdown" just another shiny prize for his metaphorical trophy case?  Or is it something he fears will tarnish he reputation?  I'm still on the fence on this one.

My prediction: If Trump does not get a face-saving compromise, he'll declare a face saving emergency (longest shutdown in history is the trigger), announce his intent to "start" reallocating funds from other sources to build the wall, reopen the government, and wait for either Congress or the courts to bail him out.  (Both parties in Congress are terrified about the long term ramifications of this potential executive power grab, and are unlikely to let it happen or continue if it does, so some kind of mutual, face-saving compromise would happen eventually).

In the unlikely event that Congress fails to fix it, and if the courts say that his "emergency" end run around Article 1, Section 8 is OK, he'll say he was vindicated.  If the courts say that the Constitution does not allow him to use a declaration of an emergency as a pretext to misappropriate other funds build a wall without authorization from Congress, Trump can then tell his supporters that the deep state liberals and idiot judges are sacrificing the "safety" of our nation (remember his ban on Muslims), and he will keep fighting (with tweets). 

Trump does not care about a wall.  He cares about using it as propaganda to manipulate his supporters. 

Nobody (other than a few crazy libertarians) wants "open borders."  By changing the term "wall" (paid for by Mexico!) to a less concrete concept of "border security," Trump and the GOP have already dumped the ingredients for compromise into the bowl.  Everybody wants "border security."  Perhaps it can be provided in part by maintaining, improving and extending some of the current walls and "barriers," most of which we would have done anyway. If Trump needs to brag about a big number, just relabel some of the giant military budget as "border security" and call it a win.   

@Nickel,
It is a shame that people are glossing over your insightful comment.  I agree with you.  I don't think Trump wants a wall.  If he did he would have accepted it earlier with DACA.  There is something else on his agenda. Maybe you are spot on.  He is a master at manipulating the media.  Maybe he is doing something behind the scenes using the wall and shutdown as a distraction.  Maybe he wants legitimate immigration reform and this will bring the Democrats to the table. Maybe it is something else, but I don't believe this is all about a wall.

Classic CEO power move.  Demand something unreasonable to negotiate something else you really want.

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 10, 2019, 08:54:49 PM
I'm for immigration anywhere on the planet as a basic human right. 

To visit?  Sure thing.

But citizenship confers certain rights and privileges that are not universally available to everyone else.  I don't think everyone should be granted automatic citizenship in any given country just by virtue of walking there.

But in between anyone being able to visit at will, and anyone being granted citizenship, is the case of people who want to come here temporarily to work.  If they are entering into a freely agreed upon contract of services for wages, I'm not sure the free market peeps think the government should be intervening to forbid it.  That's the real questions of "illegal" immigration, whether or not these people are allowed to come here and work or not.

Absolutely.  There are privileges to being a citizen of a country and there needs to be repercussion to being here illegally.  Personally I think we give out too many handouts to those here without permission.  We need to make it less desirable to being here illegally then no one will come here without permission.  Follow that up by making all drugs legal and viola, we have practically solved immigration and border security.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: PhilB on January 11, 2019, 02:39:42 AM
So we're rapidly approaching the 21 day all time record for longest government shutdown in US history, and Trump is saying he is "almost definitely" going to declare a national emergency.  Which, as we've previously discusses, is probably his only face-saving way to re-open the government without getting any border wall funding.

I'm still trying to decided if the 21 day record is a good motivator or not.  Like is Trump eager to avoid being responsible for the longest shutdown in history, or is he eager to BE responsible for the longest shutdown in history?  Like he has the biggest hands, and the best words, and the tallest buildings, and he has spent his life counterfactually bragging about having all kinds of personal records.  Is "longest shutdown" just another shiny prize for his metaphorical trophy case?  Or is it something he fears will tarnish he reputation?  I'm still on the fence on this one.

My prediction: If Trump does not get a face-saving compromise, he'll declare a face saving emergency (longest shutdown in history is the trigger), announce his intent to "start" reallocating funds from other sources to build the wall, reopen the government, and wait for either Congress or the courts to bail him out.  (Both parties in Congress are terrified about the long term ramifications of this potential executive power grab, and are unlikely to let it happen or continue if it does, so some kind of mutual, face-saving compromise would happen eventually).

In the unlikely event that Congress fails to fix it, and if the courts say that his "emergency" end run around Article 1, Section 8 is OK, he'll say he was vindicated.  If the courts say that the Constitution does not allow him to use a declaration of an emergency as a pretext to misappropriate other funds build a wall without authorization from Congress, Trump can then tell his supporters that the deep state liberals and idiot judges are sacrificing the "safety" of our nation (remember his ban on Muslims), and he will keep fighting (with tweets). 

Trump does not care about a wall.  He cares about using it as propaganda to manipulate his supporters. 

Nobody (other than a few crazy libertarians) wants "open borders."  By changing the term "wall" (paid for by Mexico!) to a less concrete concept of "border security," Trump and the GOP have already dumped the ingredients for compromise into the bowl.  Everybody wants "border security."  Perhaps it can be provided in part by maintaining, improving and extending some of the current walls and "barriers," most of which we would have done anyway. If Trump needs to brag about a big number, just relabel some of the giant military budget as "border security" and call it a win.   

@Nickel,
It is a shame that people are glossing over your insightful comment.  I agree with you.  I don't think Trump wants a wall.  If he did he would have accepted it earlier with DACA.  There is something else on his agenda. Maybe you are spot on.  He is a master at manipulating the media.  Maybe he is doing something behind the scenes using the wall and shutdown as a distraction.  Maybe he wants legitimate immigration reform and this will bring the Democrats to the table. Maybe it is something else, but I don't believe this is all about a wall.

Classic CEO power move.  Demand something unreasonable to negotiate something else you really want.
How about this for a possible evil plan - engineer a shutdown deliberately, then allow piecemeal legislation to to finance those bits of goverment you actually like, eg the coastguard bill, until all that's left unfunded are the bits you hated in the first place like science funding and simply starve them out of existence...
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on January 11, 2019, 03:10:04 AM
I'm for immigration anywhere on the planet as a basic human right. 

To visit?  Sure thing.

But citizenship confers certain rights and privileges that are not universally available to everyone else.  I don't think everyone should be granted automatic citizenship in any given country just by virtue of walking there.

But in between anyone being able to visit at will, and anyone being granted citizenship, is the case of people who want to come here temporarily to work.  If they are entering into a freely agreed upon contract of services for wages, I'm not sure the free market peeps think the government should be intervening to forbid it.  That's the real questions of "illegal" immigration, whether or not these people are allowed to come here and work or not.

Absolutely.  There are privileges to being a citizen of a country and there needs to be repercussion to being here illegally.  Personally I think we give out too many handouts to those here without permission.  We need to make it less desirable to being here illegally then no one will come here without permission.  Follow that up by making all drugs legal and viola, we have practically solved immigration and border security.

It's not that desirable to be there legally, imho, and rapidly getting less so.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: accolay on January 11, 2019, 03:20:42 AM
I don't have a personal story but surprise! No supervision brings out the best in humans:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-shutdown-national-parks-transform-into-wild-west-%e2%80%94-heavily-populated-and-barely-supervised/ar-BBRGXeI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-shutdown-national-parks-transform-into-wild-west-%e2%80%94-heavily-populated-and-barely-supervised/ar-BBRGXeI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout)
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/us/government-shutdown-national-parks-toilets-services/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/us/government-shutdown-national-parks-toilets-services/index.html)

I wonder how many sites will be vandalized? I pick up enough trash when I visit The Parks already, I can't imagine how bad it's getting with nobody watching. No fucking honor. I wish the parks would all just close the gates.

So, the actual articles are indicating the opposite of what you say. Citizens are voluntarily taking out the trash and cleaning the bathrooms.

The only thread of shutdown is the inability of the volunteers to empty the pit toilets. That's not a behavior issue.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/joshua-tree-national-park-has-been-trashed-in-the-shutdown-now-visitors-are-cutting-down-trees/ar-BBS5jSo (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/joshua-tree-national-park-has-been-trashed-in-the-shutdown-now-visitors-are-cutting-down-trees/ar-BBS5jSo)

I rest my case?

Quote
We had some pretty extensive four-wheel driving around the entire area to access probably our most significant tree in the park

People are shit.



Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 11, 2019, 06:21:05 AM

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/joshua-tree-national-park-has-been-trashed-in-the-shutdown-now-visitors-are-cutting-down-trees/ar-BBS5jSo (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/joshua-tree-national-park-has-been-trashed-in-the-shutdown-now-visitors-are-cutting-down-trees/ar-BBS5jSo)

I rest my case?

Quote
We had some pretty extensive four-wheel driving around the entire area to access probably our most significant tree in the park

People are shit.

I've lived near and have worked in several National Parks, and there's always some vocal individuals complaining about rules and regulations, saying how this is 'public land' yada yada yada.  It's never hard to find reasons why these limitations are in place.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 11, 2019, 06:36:51 AM
To visit?  Sure thing.

But citizenship confers certain rights and privileges that are not universally available to everyone else.  I don't think everyone should be granted automatic citizenship in any given country just by virtue of walking there.

But in between anyone being able to visit at will, and anyone being granted citizenship, is the case of people who want to come here temporarily to work.  If they are entering into a freely agreed upon contract of services for wages, I'm not sure the free market peeps think the government should be intervening to forbid it.  That's the real questions of "illegal" immigration, whether or not these people are allowed to come here and work or not.

I didn't mention citizenship but that works for me if they follow the same process any country, including the US, has today.   If someone desires citizenship and the benefits it carries, then bully for them for applying for it.

I'm more interested in freedom to travel, live and work.  If someone has a job for me in another country, I should be free to take it.  Millions of Mexicans come to the US to work, legally and illegally, in an enormous boost to our economy in many states, doing jobs that Americans simply will not do (except on prison work gangs).

Right now a tourist visa for a Mexican to enter the US is $131.  That is a week of average wages in Mexico.  A tourist visa for an American to visit Mexico is not required.  A week of average US wages would be about $1000.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: GuitarStv on January 11, 2019, 07:35:49 AM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: I'm a red panda on January 11, 2019, 07:40:17 AM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Didn't Subway argue (and win?) that "foot-long" didn't imply a measurement; so they could sell 11-inch subs?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: GuitarStv on January 11, 2019, 07:46:14 AM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Didn't Subway argue (and win?) that "foot-long" didn't imply a measurement; so they could sell 11-inch subs?

Again . . . getting less food from Subway may well be a blessing in disguise.  :P
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: jambongris on January 11, 2019, 07:58:45 AM
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Up until relatively recently it was illegal to sell a pint of beer at a bar in British Columbia due to a quirk of provincial and federal laws:

http://barleymowat.com/2011/01/27/bc-can-now-serve-a-pint/ (http://barleymowat.com/2011/01/27/bc-can-now-serve-a-pint/)

Since a pint is a legal unit of measure bars are required to serve you 568 ml of beer when you order a pint (within allowable tolerances). Every year or so I see another investigative article about bars that are selling beer in various sizes of glassware and just calling it a "pint" out of habit. Some of them get around the issue by just calling the drink size a sleeve or something similar since that's not a legal unit of measure.

If they aren't giving you your full pint when their menu claims that they serve pints, you can file a complaint here:

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/h_lm00007.html (https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/h_lm00007.html)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: x02947 on January 11, 2019, 08:04:38 AM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Didn't Subway argue (and win?) that "foot-long" didn't imply a measurement; so they could sell 11-inch subs?

Quote
With regards to the size of the bread and calling it a footlong, ‘SUBWAY FOOTLONG’ is a registered trademark as a descriptive name for the sub sold in Subway® Restaurants and not intended to be a measurement of length. The length of the bread baked in the restaurant cannot be assured each time as the proofing process may vary slightly each time in the restaurant.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2019, 08:11:43 AM
Getting back to something closer to the original topic of the thread (but feel free to continuing complaining about the poor quality of beer, and such small portions ):

The Miami airport has announced plans to shut down one of their terminals tomorrow so that they can consolidate their remaining TSA workers who haven't yet called in sick at fewer checkpoints.

Quote
Closing of the security checkpoint at Terminal G is set to begin at 1 p.m. Saturday, in what would be the 22nd day of a partial shutdown of the federal government. Federal screeners are calling in sick at double the normal rate for Miami, and TSA managers aren’t confident they will have enough workers to operate all 11 checkpoints at normal hours throughout the airport.

Source: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article224260800.html#storylink=cpy
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 11, 2019, 08:15:14 AM
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

The only thing with less taste than mass-produced American beer is mass-produced Canadian beer.  Lebatt Blu anyone? Probably why, when given the choice, Canadians still pick Bud over Lebatt's or Molson.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 11, 2019, 08:15:38 AM
The MyTSA app can help track delays so travelers can arrive in time to clear security and avoid issues.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 11, 2019, 08:24:49 AM
The MyTSA app can help track delays so travelers can arrive in time to clear security and avoid issues.
Curious - who is updating the app? 
To me delays of a couple hours to get through security are first-world problems - try getting anywhere by any transit system in a lot of countries and you'll understand what true gridlock is.  The bigger potential problem to me is if cargo starts getting disrupted. Everything from express packages to medicine gets shipped via our airports. Part of the reason why Reagan was able to use EO to keep the airports running during the ATC strike.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2019, 08:58:25 AM
The MyTSA app can help track delays so travelers can arrive in time to clear security and avoid issues.
Curious - who is updating the app? 
To me delays of a couple hours to get through security are first-world problems - try getting anywhere by any transit system in a lot of countries and you'll understand what true gridlock is.  The bigger potential problem to me is if cargo starts getting disrupted. Everything from express packages to medicine gets shipped via our airports. Part of the reason why Reagan was able to use EO to keep the airports running during the ATC strike.

Long delays are what happens when there isn't enough burst capacity to keep up with spikes in travel throughout the day. Once capacity gets down below the average number of people entering in an airport per 24 hours, you no longer have long waits but fewer and fewer people moving around the country.

Same thing with closing down terminals. There's a fixed number of flights that can be managed per gate. At the busiest airports in the world (think heathrow), the runways are the current bottleneck on the number of flights per day, but in many midsized cities fewer open gates means fewer flights.

Keep in mind that while the majority of americans fly less than once a year, about 6% fly 9+ times per year,* and these are disproportionately the people with the money and political/business connections to actually communicate their displeasure to political leaders in ways that are likely to be harder to ignore than many of the people who are harmed in much more substantial ways by the shutdown.

*Source: http://airlines.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016Survey.pdf (sorry about the PDF)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: BicycleB on January 11, 2019, 10:43:22 AM
I may be wrong about immigration, but it seems to me that restricting immigration is an economic mistake. Free trade is profitable. Labor is the biggest element of trade, but we restrict it. The global economy everywhere would benefit if labor were as free to move as capital.

Sorry to distract from the beer. If I still drank, I'd hoist a toast to the workers. Instead, I called my Senators and asked them to quit protecting the President show leadership by finding a way to break this impasse.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 11, 2019, 11:18:39 AM
I may be wrong about immigration, but it seems to me that restricting immigration is an economic mistake. Free trade is profitable. Labor is the biggest element of trade, but we restrict it. The global economy everywhere would benefit if labor were as free to move as capital.

In AI article post by left leaning Brookings Institute:
"While some dispute the dire predictions on grounds new positions will be created to offset the job losses, the fact that all these major studies report significant workforce disruptions should be taken seriously."


"all these major studies" indicate the need for labor is on the decline.  pay attention to the labor participation rate, many don't work since the welfare state pays same as a job since low skilled labor is arriving in the US daily so keeping wages low at the bottom.  basic law of supply/demand is at work here and if supply is left to grow, trouble is coming.

if dems and repub establishment don't begin to favor the population over supplying cheap labor to corporations soon, we'll not only get a reelected DJT, but we'll get another populist from one side or the other after him.  populism in a democracy is the result of politicians failing the people - the people will vote in dumb asses at all levels just to get the attention they so right deserve. 


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2018/04/18/will-robots-and-ai-take-your-job-the-economic-and-political-consequences-of-automation/


Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: PhilB on January 11, 2019, 11:19:03 AM
I may be wrong about immigration, but it seems to me that restricting immigration is an economic mistake. Free trade is profitable. Labor is the biggest element of trade, but we restrict it. The global economy everywhere would benefit if labor were as free to move as capital.

Sorry to distract from the beer. If I still drank, I'd hoist a toast to the workers. Instead, I called my Senators and asked them to quit protecting the President show leadership by finding a way to break this impasse.
It would be great if we all worked towards a world where we could have free movement, but that requires / creates the elimination of the current gross disparities of wealth between countries.  If you just opened all borders that would happen by the instant dragging down of wealthy countries who wouldn't be able to cope with the influx of tens of millions from poor countries.  A more practical goal is to encourage development to bring poorer countries up to the same level of wealth as the rich ones - at which point you can safely open borders as there is no longer the impetus for mass unidirectional migration.  In days gone by physical distance was enough of a barrier to migration that legal barriers weren't really needed.  Now the subset of people who are poor enough to want to come to a rich country, but rich enough to afford a plane ticket is bigger than any rich country fully opening its borders could cope with.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Cassie on January 11, 2019, 11:20:37 AM
I don’t know one person that is for open borders.  However, what Trump is doing to the immigrants now is beyond belief. No empathy whatsoever.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2019, 11:31:14 AM
WRT the free flow of labor, it is tied up quite tightly with free trade. Right now we have free trade but very limited (relative to our size) legal immigration. The result is distortions in the labor market. Jobs that can be moved out of the country and had the products brought back in are exposed to one economic regime (auto workers, steel workers, some kinds of computer programmers). Jobs that cannot be done remotely and where the product cannot be shipped are exposed to a very different one (plumbers, teachers, MDs, and other healthcare workers).

This shows up in the consumer price indices. The price of everything you buy at a store has dropped dramatically in price, increased dramatically in quality, or both over the past 50 years. The price of anything service based has stayed the same or climbed in the same time period.

You could make a logical case we should protect both steel workers and plumbers from competing on international labor markets* or neither. The same goes for (some kinds) of computers programmers and healthcare workers.

Anyway, it's just fun to play devil's advocate sometimes.

*At substantial expense to the overall economic wellbeing of the country in either case, but sometimes it's worth everyone sacrificing a little to protect a few people from sacrificing a lot. Other times there are cheaper and more effective ways to protect some people without hurting a lot of people.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 11, 2019, 11:55:04 AM
I don’t know one person that is for open borders.  However, what Trump is doing to the immigrants now is beyond belief. No empathy whatsoever.

what is he doing to the immigrants?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Cassie on January 11, 2019, 12:00:46 PM
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 11, 2019, 12:04:10 PM
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: partgypsy on January 11, 2019, 12:23:27 PM
Just going to ignore that last statement. I do have to say the people on here who are arguing for a wall. First of all, no one is for open borders. 2nd of all, whether you are republican or democrat, as it exists now cheap, below minimum wage labor in the form of immigrants, picks our produce, plants our plants, work in factories, is used for domestic and maid service. The republicans who on one side of their mouth spouting anti-immigrant rhetoric, including taking American jobs, increasing crime, are on the other side HIRING these people to do these jobs. They KNOW they are immigrants. They know that if they truly wanted to stop illegal immigration, the way to do that is to have more strict enforcement of labor laws. What should we do about immigration? Increase the staffing for processing immigrants as well as for tracking throughout the system. Increase the number of work visas, for both skilled and unskilled workers. Have a legal realistic way that legal immigrants can become citizens, including dreamers, so they are motivated to work within the system and be good citizens. Employment is tracked, taxes are paid, and these companies ARE getting labor, except labor at the minimum legal wage. This helps American workers because it puts a floor on wages versus paying people "under the table". It protects immigrants because they have worker protections. It protects Americans because we can keep the immigrants we want, and process out the ones we don't. The only people it doesn't help are businesses who want to pay immigrants less than minimum wage and have no worker protections.
The things I am suggesting would cost less than a physical wall which is ineffective for the vast majority of how immigrants get into this country. According to experts a wall would do little to nothing about drug smuggling either.
There ARE small areas in urban areas where local law enforcement is asking for physical barriers to be beefed up and yes fund that. However for vast areas of desert, areas cutting through people's private property and reserves, no one in those areas is asking or WANTS a physical barrier, including law enforcement. "Build a wall" is a HUGE (metaphorically and physically) distraction to what the real world issues and solutions to immigration are.   
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: GuitarStv on January 11, 2019, 12:26:37 PM
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html)).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on)).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/)) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0 (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0)).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 11, 2019, 12:28:23 PM
what is he doing to the immigrants?

Oh, I'll play.  Let's start with family separation and locking children in metal cages.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: partgypsy on January 11, 2019, 12:32:52 PM
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html)).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on)).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/)) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0 (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0)).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

Trump is publicly saying that he is FOR legal immigration, if people "go through the system". However in every area he touches, he is trying to reduce legal immigration options, including for people with green cards to be able serve in the military, both skilled and unskilled labor and even student visas. We are a connected global country and these restrictions are creating chaos and reducing our resources as a country. Since these things make no rational sense, violate US and International laws, and actually cost the US money in terms of labor and skills, my only explanation; he is a bigot.  He's even created a "denaturalization task force", which means exactly what it sounds like; creating a way to strip citizenship from naturalized citizens. All US citizens have certain unalienable rights. What he is trying to do is against the US constitution and Bill of Rights.

https://www.afsc.org/blogs/news-and-commentary/trumps-attacks-legal-immigration-system-explained
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 11, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
what is he doing to the immigrants?

Oh, I'll play.  Let's start with family separation and locking children in metal cages.

The pictures posted of this was during Obama's term, where was your outrage then?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 11, 2019, 12:47:21 PM
The pictures posted of this was during Obama's term, where was your outrage then?

You've only seen pictures of children in cages that were taken under Obama?  I know of one specific example of such a photo, and hundreds more taken over the last two years when Trump dramatically expanded the process and then publicly declared that we should be using the practice and the threat of family separation as a deterrent.  Though you do have a point, because Obama was an immigration hardliner too despite people like DreamFIRE claiming that all democrats want open borders.

Are you seriously suggesting that Donald Trump has improved the lives of immigrants?  That kind of blows me away.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 11, 2019, 01:11:37 PM
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html)).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on)).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/)) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0 (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0)).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

that's all you got?  things that have been happening for decades under other presidents and never reported?  look deeper and you'll find things that happened under Obama/bush/clinton that easily could have been written up as an outrageous/crisis/human rights violation ..... the press at any given time can make anything they choose an outrage/crisis.   right now, today, hundreds of thousand of horrible things are happening that are ignored but for any one of them, the media could turn it into a crisis if they want policy to stay the same or to change a policy. 

one murder can be made into a crisis where hundreds are happening elsewhere.   

the cages and the separation was happening long before DJT - how could you not know this.

man, i'd really like to battle this out, but my time is worth more than sitting in front of this computer.   honestly, that's my feeling as i sit here, i'm feeling guilt sitting here wasting time, while at the same time i'd love to battle it out or "PLAY" as SOL suggests.    do you guys post from work or home?  i'm amazed how much time is devoted to this typing.  if from work, shame on you.  if from home, might want set some limits but if you are limited, the alternative to sitting in front of the computer might cause you to spend money doing fun things so i understand the dilemma. 

 


Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Cassie on January 11, 2019, 01:17:44 PM
Sol and Gypsy his last response is why I didn’t bother to answer. Some people have closed minds.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: partgypsy on January 11, 2019, 01:21:36 PM
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html)).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on)).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/)) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0 (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0)).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

that's all you got?  things that have been happening for decades under other presidents and never reported?  look deeper and you'll find things that happened under Obama/bush/clinton that easily could have been written up as an outrageous/crisis/human rights violation ..... the press at any given time can make anything they choose an outrage/crisis.   right now, today, hundreds of thousand of horrible things are happening that are ignored but for any one of them, the media could turn it into a crisis if they want policy to stay the same or to change a policy. 

one murder can be made into a crisis where hundreds are happening elsewhere.   

the cages and the separation was happening long before DJT - how could you not know this.

man, i'd really like to battle this out, but my time is worth more than sitting in front of this computer.   honestly, that's my feeling as i sit here, i'm feeling guilt sitting here wasting time, while at the same time i'd love to battle it out or "PLAY" as SOL suggests.    do you guys post from work or home?  i'm amazed how much time is devoted to this typing.  if from work, shame on you.  if from home, might want set some limits but if you are limited, the alternative to sitting in front of the computer might cause you to spend money doing fun things so i understand the dilemma. 

 
Sol's main point what is NEW with Trump and not true for previous presidents, is that he made the act of stepping over the border an automatic felony, so that all parents are separated from their children. This was not done before. Since this was a CHANGE in our policy many immigrants did not know this was going to happen, were genuinely terrified as were their children. Tragic and completely avoidable. This change was implemented without having the manpower and infrastructure to deal with this in any humane or ethical fashion.

You also did not say anything about the extensive evidence that Trump is trying to circumvent legal immigration, even if he himself says that immigrants going through legal routes was the solution to illegal immigration. 
 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Cool Friend on January 11, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
Ah yes, the ol' "there have been and will continue to be other tragedies too, so who cares about any individual one" rejoinder.   Complete with the "this discussion I started is a waste of my time" exit.

Timeless.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on January 11, 2019, 01:39:59 PM
So how are ordinary people actually doing over there? You know, instead of arguing about the whys of the situation? There doesn't seem to be rioting in the streets or anything.....
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Omy on January 11, 2019, 01:49:25 PM
My understanding is that federal employees are not supposed to behave politically, so they can't picket and riot and expect to have jobs to come back to.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: GuitarStv on January 11, 2019, 01:54:57 PM
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html)).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on)).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/)) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0 (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0)).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

that's all you got? things that have been happening for decades under other presidents and never reported?  look deeper and you'll find things that happened under Obama/bush/clinton that easily could have been written up as an outrageous/crisis/human rights violation ..... the press at any given time can make anything they choose an outrage/crisis.   right now, today, hundreds of thousand of horrible things are happening that are ignored but for any one of them, the media could turn it into a crisis if they want policy to stay the same or to change a policy. 

one murder can be made into a crisis where hundreds are happening elsewhere.   

the cages and the separation was happening long before DJT - how could you not know this.

man, i'd really like to battle this out, but my time is worth more than sitting in front of this computer.   honestly, that's my feeling as i sit here, i'm feeling guilt sitting here wasting time, while at the same time i'd love to battle it out or "PLAY" as SOL suggests.    do you guys post from work or home?  i'm amazed how much time is devoted to this typing.  if from work, shame on you.  if from home, might want set some limits but if you are limited, the alternative to sitting in front of the computer might cause you to spend money doing fun things so i understand the dilemma. 


You demanded information.

It was provided.

You have obviously not read the it because there the information directly contradicts your response.

Now you're demanding more information and simultaneously indicating that you don't have time to discuss the topic.


I have to ask, what exactly is your goal in this conversation?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Apples on January 11, 2019, 01:55:50 PM
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour. for 45-50 hour weeks  While they are here, their housing and transportation are provided for.  Yes, it's difficult to raise a family on those wages, but it's not minimum wage.  While picking fruit, and earning piece rate wages, they earn an average of $9-$20 an hour (the fittest make the most money).  We can. not. hire American citizens to do this work.  We've had people show up and leave in the middle of the afternoon because they think it's too hard.  It is hard.  There's no way around it.  You have to be in shape to do this kind of work.  Our wages are competitive for our area - no one is paying much less, because the employee information chain is solid, so they know exactly  how much people are making other places and are willing to leave for better conditions.  Sometimes those better conditions are that a crew leader will let them drink some beer on the job. *eye roll*

In 2018, we got H-2A workers (visa for temporary non-immigrant worker, our guys came from Mexico).  The U.S. government sets a wage rate* based on overall wages in the industry for that kind of work.  This applies to H-2A workers and any other workers doing the same job (so our entire seasonal crew).  The wage rate was...drumroll...$12.05.   While in theory, yes if we paid $50/hour there would be plenty of American citizens willing to do the work, on the other hand this is a job that takes skill but none you need an education or more than on-the-job training for.

In other news, I have a friend who works for the Dept. of the Interior who goes out and does those periodic weather and conditions measurements for streams around our state, and he hasn't worked in weeks.  So that data for those weeks will never have been gathered, and they are now very behind on some water quality tests.

*based on flawed survey data and analysis, but no need to go into that
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 11, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
So how are ordinary people actually doing over there? You know, instead of arguing about the whys of the situation? There doesn't seem to be rioting in the streets or anything.....
I remember being in France during a strike and I can tell you us Americans are a boring lot of people comparatively.

We trudge along and make due with a few people here and there holding signs and chanting while the politicians throw themselves on the floor kicking and screaming like little children and the media drool's at the ratings that they are getting from broadcasting the temper tantrums.

If this were France the country would be burnt to the ground by now... They know how to throwdown when they are not happy.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 11, 2019, 02:12:45 PM
In 2018, we got H-2A workers (visa for temporary non-immigrant worker, our guys came from Mexico). 

Are you saying that you support expanding visas for temporary foreign labor, or oppose it?  Because in my mind, if you can't hire Americans to do this hard work for $12/hour, then you're probably not happy about Trump reducing the supply of people who have proper paperwork to pick fruit AND the supply of people who don't have the proper paperwork to pick fruit.

My understanding is that federal employees are not supposed to behave politically, so they can't picket and riot and expect to have jobs to come back to.

Federal employees are still US citizens and they can behave politically just like any other citizen can.  They're just not supposed to do so while at work, or when not at work in any way that suggests they are representing the US government in an official capacity.  I could still picket in front of the white house, I just could't hold a sign with my agency's initials on it while doing so.

And to be fair, the rules designed to separate official business and personal business have been WILDLY flaunted by the Trump administration.  Every time an administration official uses their official twitter account to tweet #MAGA they are in egregious violation of the Hatch Act.  There are similar rules against using your official position for personal gain, and those have also been flaunted routinely.  I'm not sure why any federal employee would feel the least bit bound by the Hatch Act restrictions at this point, given the example set by Trump, his family, his cabinet, and his senior aides.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 11, 2019, 02:13:16 PM
Though you do have a point, because Obama was an immigration hardliner too despite people like DreamFIRE claiming that all democrats want open borders.
I never posted stating that ALL democRats want open borders, although many do.  Are you trying to use your twisted logic to imply I'm suggesting ALL of them have that viewpoint?  It sure looks like that's what you're doing again, but you would be incorrect.  I never claimed such a thing.

Obama a hardliner?  Now, that's funny.  But at least he supported a physical barrier at the border, just like many other democrats, including Chuck and Nancy, until Trump became president.

Trump isn't wanting only a wall - that's just one piece of the border security puzzle.  I stated that multiple times earlier in the thread, and Trump even mentioned that in his speech.  But I continue to see comments from people that the wall isn't going to solve everything by itself.  Duh!  Building a wall doesn't mean all of the other enforcement/security methods come to an end.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 11, 2019, 02:21:59 PM
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour.

While costing U.S. tax payers far more than that.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 11, 2019, 02:29:24 PM
Absolutely.  There are privileges to being a citizen of a country and there needs to be repercussion to being here illegally.  Personally I think we give out too many handouts to those here without permission.  We need to make it less desirable to being here illegally then no one will come here without permission.  Follow that up by making all drugs legal and viola, we have practically solved immigration and border security.

Yeah, it costs a fortune to support these people as shown by previous studies.  Agreed, it needs to be very undesirable to be here illegally, especially when it's literal shit where many of these people are coming from.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: partgypsy on January 11, 2019, 02:30:01 PM
Can anyone tell me what "open borders" means? I keep hearing that's what Democrats want (ok not all, but most), and it's something bad, but not what is meant by that term. Anyone?


"Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they’re working and earning here, they’d pay taxes here. And when they want to go back, they can go back. They can cross. Open the borders both ways." Ronald Reagan, 1980


Saying that illegal immigration "costs a fortune" is not true. There may be a net overall cost, or there may actually be a net benefit for illegal immigrations. It is actually pretty difficult to get a "single number" on costs versus benefits because it depends on what you include, what externalities, and projections you are including.

Overall the consensus is that illegal immigration benefits the US by doing work that US citizens would not do for that wage, they pay into taxes and even social security yet cannot collect taxes or benefits, and spend virtually 100% of their income, thus helping the economy. However they put a strain on local city, state and hospital budgets particularly in the southwest, because they are required by law to provide certain services, education to minors and emergency medical services, but are not reimbursed by the national government for those costs. Local, state governments, do not have the flexibility to go beyond fixed budgets. Hospitals are not reimbursed by either the immigrant OR the government which mandates emergency care, so the hospital has to eat the costs and otherwise pass on those costs to other paying consumers.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 11, 2019, 02:59:54 PM
Though you do have a point, because Obama was an immigration hardliner too despite people like DreamFIRE claiming that all democrats want open borders.
I never posted stating that ALL democRats want open borders, although many do. 
unless you are using the adjective to mean "at best 2%" you are again mischaracterizing the debate, and it seems intentionally so.  To my knowledge there is not a single Democratic member of the senate or the house that has publicly supported open borders. It's not the position of any Democratic state Governor that I am aware of, either.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 11, 2019, 03:08:29 PM
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour.

While costing U.S. tax payers far more than that.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

You are aware you answered a post about legal and temporary immigration with a link to a study about ILLEGAL immigration?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 11, 2019, 03:21:57 PM
My understanding is that federal employees are not supposed to behave politically, so they can't picket and riot and expect to have jobs to come back to.

I just got a department wide e-mail titled "Ethics Guidance during Lapse in Appropriations."

It reminded us that all outside (non governmental work) needs to be per-approved and kind of hinted taking things such as a free lunch for a federal worker might be considered accepting or soliciting gifts due to your official position or benefiting from an outside source because of your position.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Boofinator on January 11, 2019, 03:36:26 PM
I'm not sure why any federal employee would feel the least bit bound by the Hatch Act restrictions at this point, given the example set by Trump, his family, his cabinet, and his senior aides.

The president and vice president are exempt. Not sure the circumstances surrounding the partisan messages sent by the other civilian employees you note, but as you mentioned there are no restrictions outside duty hours.

But yeah, it would be a dark day if there were repercussions to the civilian employees peaceably assembling while furloughed.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 11, 2019, 03:52:54 PM
But yeah, it would be a dark day if there were repercussions to the civilian employees peaceably assembling while furloughed.

I was still an active federal employee during the last big shutdown in 2013, and I hosted a shutdown party at my house for my coworkers.  There was beer, and much bitching and moaning, and it was generally a good time.

This time around I'm retired, so I drink beer and bitch and moan whenever I want to.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 11, 2019, 05:16:30 PM

This time around I'm retired, so I drink beer and bitch and moan whenever I want to.

ah... Sol's achieved the American dream!
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Omy on January 11, 2019, 05:30:44 PM


And to be fair, the rules designed to separate official business and personal business have been WILDLY flaunted by the Trump administration.  Every time an administration official uses their official twitter account to tweet #MAGA they are in egregious violation of the Hatch Act.  There are similar rules against using your official position for personal gain, and those have also been flaunted routinely.  I'm not sure why any federal employee would feel the least bit bound by the Hatch Act restrictions at this point, given the example set by Trump, his family, his cabinet, and his senior aides.

The furloughed employees I know are a practical bunch and reference the Hatch Act when I ask them why they aren't making noise. So they may not feel it's worth testing the limits (even though the Trump Klan ignores the rules daily.) The average worker seems to actually suffer the consequences of their actions - and acts accordingly.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Slow2FIRE on January 11, 2019, 08:04:25 PM
Washington Post reports that the Senate and House have approved a bill for furloughed Feds to receive back pay.  McConnell was quoted as saying that Trump told him he would sign the bill.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/11/congress-approves-back-pay-eventually-for-furloughed-federal-employees/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ddf935baba1f (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/11/congress-approves-back-pay-eventually-for-furloughed-federal-employees/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ddf935baba1f)

In other news, Republicans are passing around a bill (again) that would end future govt shutdowns.  Something along the lines of an automatic continuing resolution with govt funding decreasing by 1% every 90 days while the auto-continuing resolution is in force due to a budget bill not being passed.  I don't know if the Republican senators have bipartisan support or widespread support in their own party for this bill.

https://www.risch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2019/1/as-shutdown-continues-risch-senate-colleagues-introduce-bill-to-permanently-end-government-shutdowns (https://www.risch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2019/1/as-shutdown-continues-risch-senate-colleagues-introduce-bill-to-permanently-end-government-shutdowns)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 11, 2019, 08:42:27 PM
In other news, Republicans are passing around a bill (again) that would end future govt shutdowns.  Something along the lines of an automatic continuing resolution with govt funding decreasing by 1% every 90 days

As long as it hits all military and congressional paychecks too, I would totally be in favor of this plan.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: obstinate on January 11, 2019, 10:51:50 PM
As long as it hits all military and congressional paychecks too, I would totally be in favor of this plan.
Dems would never pass that so it doesn’t matter.

Republicans are so funny. It seems like their idea of negotiation is “heads I win tails you lose.” Why would Democrats ever accede to a scenario where spending automatically moves in the direction conservatives prefer, even and especially if no action is taken?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 11, 2019, 11:24:44 PM
Why would Democrats ever accede to a scenario where spending automatically moves in the direction conservatives prefer, even and especially if no action is taken?

If the spending reductions were genuinely evenly distributed, I think you could find consensus on a fix.  1% reduction per 90 days is a 4% reduction per year.  4% reduction in federal salaries, military salaries, and congressional salaries.  A 4% reduction in social security checks.  A 4% reduction in all defense spending, substantiated by a 4% reduction in force.  A 4% reduction in all infrastructure like roads, internet, power grids, sewer pipes.  A 4% reduction in federal mortgage lending.  In border patrol, in space exploration, in OSHA inspections.  Everything.

This plan would be catastrophically unpopular in ever state.  No representative or senator would ever consent to this plan for more than a few moments before being flooded with hate mail. 

You know who would love it, though?  The same people who love that the US government is currently dysfunctional.  The Russians.  The Chinese.  The Iranians.  North Koreans.  Kyle Schuant (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/profile/?u=12734).  Anybody who wants to see the United States fail would love this plan.  Leave it up to the GOP to propose such an idea, a way to make a disastrous situation even worse.

But it might backfire on Kyle and the Ruskies!  By forcing Congress to actually pass a budget, and therefore keep the government operating in a fashion consistent with the will of our elected representatives, the US might actually have a chance to function like a real first world country for a change.

Of course, it would be much easier to just pass a bill to end future shutdowns that provided a CR that extended previous funding at previous levels automatically, or even better, extended funding at last year's rate plus last year's inflation number.  When I was a federal employee I got to see first hand how a 0% agency budget increase was heralded as "not a cut" but immediately resulted in projects and programs being cancelled because expenses continue to rise even if budgets are flat.  The rents the gov pays go up every year.  Salaries go up, the cost of office stationary goes up, health insurance premiums go up, and overhead rates go up.  Ever year they got an agency budget that was lower than inflation resulted in a reduction in services.  It baffles me that anyone would propose uniformly shrinking budgets across the board, as if attrition due to inflation was insufficient.  Our government services are already being eroded away into futile nothingness, there's no need to hurry the process along.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: ilsy on January 12, 2019, 12:15:19 AM
Have a legal realistic way that legal immigrants can become citizens, including dreamers, so they are motivated to work within the system and be good citizens.

While I generally agree with the rest, this sentence got me confused. It is already pretty legal and realistic for legal immigrants (Green Card holders or permanent residents) to become naturalized citizens. Getting the US citizenship is about 5 times cheaper and 100 times easier than getting the Green Card itself (aka legally immigrating or becoming a permanent resident). I cannot attest for the dreamers, not familiar with their rules.

Also Green Card holders during the application sign a document saying that in case they commit a marriage fraud, drug crime, aggravated felony, participated in Nazi persecution, genocide, torture, severe violations of religious freedom (the list is pretty long), they become subjected to deportation. So, the motive for being a "good citizen" is the privilege of staying in the country. Plus, there is no urgency or necessity to become naturalized citizens, unless they want to vote or get SS. Green Card holders have all the rights except for voting, SS pension, and I think that's it. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: six-car-habit on January 12, 2019, 01:48:16 AM
 Friend has a job with Dept of Defense, but recently applied, and was hired, for a job with GSA which he thinks will provide more + different opportunities, plus its closer to his home / shorter commute.

 Was supposed to start with GSA on Jan 7th.  Cannot start new position yet, Hiring paperwork cannot be finalized. Though he wants to start the new job, he is happy to still be attached to DOD, since that means he continues to receive paychecks instead of IOU's / promise of backpay.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: ROF Expat on January 12, 2019, 02:27:03 AM
As long as it hits all military and congressional paychecks too, I would totally be in favor of this plan.
Dems would never pass that so it doesn’t matter.

Republicans are so funny. It seems like their idea of negotiation is “heads I win tails you lose.” Why would Democrats ever accede to a scenario where spending automatically moves in the direction conservatives prefer, even and especially if no action is taken?

Democrats and Republicans pretty much agreed to something very much like this with the budget sequestration agreement.  They pretty much agreed that they would find cuts they could all live with, and if they couldn't, reach an agreement, there would be automatic cuts across the board, affecting both defense and medicare programs (and pretty much everything else).   The idea was that the cuts would be so bad for both parties that they'd feel pressured to make a deal.  Well, they couldn't reach an agreement and sequestration cuts were indeed painful for both parties, so they've pretty much agreed to just ignore their own legislation. 

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: nereo on January 12, 2019, 03:23:35 AM
As long as it hits all military and congressional paychecks too, I would totally be in favor of this plan.
Dems would never pass that so it doesn’t matter.

Republicans are so funny. It seems like their idea of negotiation is “heads I win tails you lose.” Why would Democrats ever accede to a scenario where spending automatically moves in the direction conservatives prefer, even and especially if no action is taken?

Democrats and Republicans pretty much agreed to something very much like this with the budget sequestration agreement.  They pretty much agreed that they would find cuts they could all live with, and if they couldn't, reach an agreement, there would be automatic cuts across the board, affecting both defense and medicare programs (and pretty much everything else).   The idea was that the cuts would be so bad for both parties that they'd feel pressured to make a deal.  Well, they couldn't reach an agreement and sequestration cuts were indeed painful for both parties, so they've pretty much agreed to just ignore their own legislation.

Regarding the sequestration - I don't think either side anticipated just how badly the tea partiers would muck it all up.  The ones who felt it was their mission to starve the government until it withered ('until you could drown it in a bathtub'). To them the hatchet-like precision of the sequestration didn't matter, and compromise was a dirty word ('we are the party of hell no!').
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Omy on January 12, 2019, 07:26:05 AM
A client of mine posted the following on his FB page:

"Our biggest issue is that whenever our daughter is born - I can’t sign her up for health insurance until the shutdown is over. Wtf"

I'm starting to see a lot more discontent from furloughed workers on social media now.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 12, 2019, 08:03:47 AM
Trump has negotiated tough deals for decades. He always takes a firm but slightly crazy position and refuses to budge until the other side gives in. I don’t see Pelosi giving in any time soon so I expect quite a long shutdown.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 12, 2019, 08:34:13 AM
Trump has negotiated tough deals for decades. He always takes a firm but slightly crazy position and refuses to budge until the other side gives in. I don’t see Pelosi giving in any time soon so I expect quite a long shutdown.

We've already established that Trump doesn't need to give in, and no further compromise is necessary.  The budget bill that Mitch McConnell worked so hard to get past the Senate unanimously WAS the compromise.  It literally had 100% support.  In case anyone is really bad at math, that's more than enough to override a presidential veto.  Congress could re-open the fully funded government tomorrow, except that Mitch won't let congress vote.

And if this thing drags on long enough, that becomes more and more likely.  It will take months, not weeks, but eventually congress will step up and perform its constitutionally-defined duty to pass a budget no matter what the Russians in the white house say.  We just have to get to the point where republican senators start to fear their home constituents more than they fear Trump giving them an insulting nickname.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 12, 2019, 08:50:56 AM
Have a legal realistic way that legal immigrants can become citizens, including dreamers, so they are motivated to work within the system and be good citizens.

While I generally agree with the rest, this sentence got me confused. It is already pretty legal and realistic for legal immigrants (Green Card holders or permanent residents) to become naturalized citizens. Getting the US citizenship is about 5 times cheaper and 100 times easier than getting the Green Card itself (aka legally immigrating or becoming a permanent resident). I cannot attest for the dreamers, not familiar with their rules.

Also Green Card holders during the application sign a document saying that in case they commit a marriage fraud, drug crime, aggravated felony, participated in Nazi persecution, genocide, torture, severe violations of religious freedom (the list is pretty long), they become subjected to deportation. So, the motive for being a "good citizen" is the privilege of staying in the country. Plus, there is no urgency or necessity to become naturalized citizens, unless they want to vote or get SS. Green Card holders have all the rights except for voting, SS pension, and I think that's it.
Green card holders pay into and are eligible for Social Security benefits on the same terms as citizens.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Travis on January 12, 2019, 10:17:13 AM
Why would Democrats ever accede to a scenario where spending automatically moves in the direction conservatives prefer, even and especially if no action is taken?

...This plan would be catastrophically unpopular in ever state.  No representative or senator would ever consent to this plan for more than a few moments before being flooded with hate mail...

...Of course, it would be much easier to just pass a bill to end future shutdowns that provided a CR that extended previous funding at previous levels automatically, or even better, extended funding at last year's rate plus last year's inflation number... 

This sounds exactly like the Budget Control Act that everybody predicted Congress wouldn't permit to go the distance because of how destructive it would be. It feels to me that as a collective group our representatives will happily cut each other's throats just on the hopes that the other side will bleed out first.

Regarding your solution, that sounds like a recipe for absolving Congress of never having to pass a budget at all. They've already proven a love of kicking CRs down the road for years at a stretch rather than pass a real budget.  Allowing the CR process to do the work for them without even holding a vote just reinforces this.  I would support an automatic funding mechanism like this for the debt ceiling.  Effective debt reduction just doesn't seem possible (see BCA above), but every time we run up against the ceiling there's days of posturing, shut down threats, bills unpaid, and general chaos that wouldn't have happened if this self-imposed ceiling didn't exist which only seems to exist for each side to score a few cheap points.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Travis on January 12, 2019, 10:23:35 AM
It is becoming more and more frightening to me that the GOP/McConnell are not willing to stand up to Trump on this. I mean -- hasn't he made his dramatic point already?  If they stand up to him and vote and the Senate passes McConnell's bill, doesn't everyone win?  We get the government back to work and the paychecks start flowing again.  Trump has made his point that he really really wants this wall and wont back down on it.  He looks tough, they look reasonable.

I think they may be afraid that if they really upset him he will go seriously unhinged.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mcconnell+senate+goal+obstruct+obama&docid=608045966081788725&mid=E607C3AAC5EED8176E79E607C3AAC5EED8176E79&view=detail&FORM=VIRE (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mcconnell+senate+goal+obstruct+obama&docid=608045966081788725&mid=E607C3AAC5EED8176E79E607C3AAC5EED8176E79&view=detail&FORM=VIRE)

If it seems that Senator McConnell is more concerned with appeasing President Trump than running an effective Congress, it's because he might be.  From my little corner of reality it seems like he's had a history of allowing to pass anything the Democrats might be happy with as "losing."  With the President having taken this situation out this far, not getting him what he wants would seem like a massive loss to the Democrats.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Khaetra on January 12, 2019, 10:25:27 AM

We've already established that Trump doesn't need to give in, and no further compromise is necessary.  The budget bill that Mitch McConnell worked so hard to get past the Senate unanimously WAS the compromise.  It literally had 100% support.  In case anyone is really bad at math, that's more than enough to override a presidential veto.  Congress could re-open the fully funded government tomorrow, except that Mitch won't let congress vote.

And if this thing drags on long enough, that becomes more and more likely.  It will take months, not weeks, but eventually congress will step up and perform its constitutionally-defined duty to pass a budget no matter what the Russians in the white house say.  We just have to get to the point where republican senators start to fear their home constituents more than they fear Trump giving them an insulting nickname.

There was a deal, which included much more money for his wall in exchange for protecting DACA.  He WAS ready to sign it.  In a matter of 15 minutes he changed his mind and most speculate it was Fox News (or someone with that way of thinking) that got to him.  Mitch has the power to veto the President and I agree it will happen, when is the question.

I have friends who work for TSA and while they will be fine (they are frugal and have socked away for a rainy day), many they work with will not be.  Some have already put their cars up for sale, some have sold jewelry to the local pawn shops.  If it drags on too long some will lose their homes.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 12, 2019, 10:39:25 AM
Regarding your solution, that sounds like a recipe for absolving Congress of never having to pass a budget at all. They've already proven a love of kicking CRs down the road for years at a stretch rather than pass a real budget.

I agree that they have, but I think it's only because the consequences have been too light.  They've always paid the military, even when they hold civilian federal workers over the barrel.  They've always issued tax returns, and social security and disability payments.  They've always paid congress. 

I think they'd have much more motivation to find a compromise solution (like the one that already passed the Senate that trump threatened to veto) if the consequences of doing were spread to everyone in government, rather than just civilian federal workers.  I'm not sure why this one little corner of federal spending is always the hot potato, while all those army grunts continue to get paid.  If you're going to shut it down, you shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who gets paid and who doesn't. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Joel on January 12, 2019, 11:18:30 AM
Or better yet, pay everyone other than elected officials during a shutdown?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 12, 2019, 12:28:24 PM
What happens to federal employees on furlough when it hits the 30 day mark?

From what I am reading that results in a Reduction In Force where employees will be laid off or moved to a different job.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/reductions-in-force/

I have not heard anyone talking about it but seems like this would be a major make or break point.

It is one thing to be furloughed where you may or may not get paid but a whole new level if you lose your job after 30 days of shutdown.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: YttriumNitrate on January 12, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
I think they'd have much more motivation to find a compromise solution (like the one that already passed the Senate that trump threatened to veto) if the consequences of doing were spread to everyone in government, rather than just civilian federal workers.  I'm not sure why this one little corner of federal spending is always the hot potato, while all those army grunts continue to get paid.  If you're going to shut it down, you shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who gets paid and who doesn't.
I think the answer is politics. Since federal workers voted 2-to-1 for Clinton (https://www.govexec.com/insights/reports/government-executive-2016-presidential-poll-post-election/134667/) (and probably 3 or 4-to-1 if the DoD were excluded), Trump knows that he can apply pressure without significantly hitting his base. A good analogy would be the most recent tax overhaul where unsurprisingly the blue states got hit the hardest.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 12, 2019, 01:16:53 PM
What happens to federal employees on furlough when it hits the 30 day mark?

From what I am reading that results in a Reduction In Force where employees will be laid off or moved to a different job.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/reductions-in-force/

That page does in fact say that 30 calendar days of furlough requires the initiation of a RIF.  Congress still has a week to convene and pass a law overriding OPM, but it looks like the law on the books right now would start a RIF window about a week from now.  We've just never had a lapse of appropriations long enough to trigger it before.

Of course, a RIF doesn't just happen by itself.  Individual federal workers from OPM and HR for every agency would be called back (without pay?) to process the paperwork to make it happen.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 12, 2019, 01:50:10 PM
What happens to federal employees on furlough when it hits the 30 day mark?

From what I am reading that results in a Reduction In Force where employees will be laid off or moved to a different job.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/reductions-in-force/

That page does in fact say that 30 calendar days of furlough requires the initiation of a RIF.  Congress still has a week to convene and pass a law overriding OPM, but it looks like the law on the books right now would start a RIF window about a week from now.  We've just never had a lapse of appropriations long enough to trigger it before.

Of course, a RIF doesn't just happen by itself.  Individual federal workers from OPM and HR for every agency would be called back (without pay?) to process the paperwork to make it happen.
Well that is a kick in the balls.

My wife being term and under a year would be the first to go I am assuming.

She has amazing skills so getting another job in industry should be easy for her but she really loves what she is doing now and would be heart broken.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on January 12, 2019, 02:19:19 PM
What happens to federal employees on furlough when it hits the 30 day mark?

From what I am reading that results in a Reduction In Force where employees will be laid off or moved to a different job.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/reductions-in-force/

I have not heard anyone talking about it but seems like this would be a major make or break point.

It is one thing to be furloughed where you may or may not get paid but a whole new level if you lose your job after 30 days of shutdown.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

That is interesting, but I don't think the intent is to apply this to a shutdown related furlough.  It would make sense to initiate a RIF if an agency was implementing a routine furlough because it couldn't pay the existing workforce for a 40-hour work week.  Ostensibly, in the shutdown scenario, most agencies would be back to business as usual when the furlough ends, so a RIF would not make sense.  I suppose it could be invoked if a really draconian budget that wouldn't cover existing labor passes after a >30 day shutdown.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 12, 2019, 02:29:34 PM
That is interesting, but I don't think the intent is to apply this to a shutdown related furlough.

I agree that it's unlikely to be the intent.  That doesn't mean it's not the law.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Peachtea on January 12, 2019, 02:30:38 PM
Gah, way to make me briefly panic guys. Looks like those rules don’t apply to shutdown furlough. There’s a difference between shutdown and administrative furlough.

Quote
NOTE: Reductions in force (RIF) furlough regulations and SES competitive furlough requirements are not applicable to emergency shutdown furloughs because the ultimate duration of an emergency shutdown furlough is unknown at the outset and is dependent entirely on Congressional action, rather than agency action. The RIF furlough regulations and SES competitive furlough requirements, on the other hand, contemplate planned, foreseeable, money-saving furloughs that, at the outset, are planned to exceed 30 days.

OPM guidance, page 29 https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/furlough-guidance/guidance-for-shutdown-furloughs.pdf
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: horsepoor on January 12, 2019, 02:33:19 PM
Gah, way to make me briefly panic guys. Looks like those rules don’t apply to shutdown furlough. There’s a difference between shutdown and administrative furlough.

Quote
NOTE: Reductions in force (RIF) furlough regulations and SES competitive furlough requirements are not applicable to emergency shutdown furloughs because the ultimate duration of an emergency shutdown furlough is unknown at the outset and is dependent entirely on Congressional action, rather than agency action. The RIF furlough regulations and SES competitive furlough requirements, on the other hand, contemplate planned, foreseeable, money-saving furloughs that, at the outset, are planned to exceed 30 days.

OPM guidance, page 29 https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/furlough-guidance/guidance-for-shutdown-furloughs.pdf

Thanks, @Peachtea  I'm glad that is clear.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 12, 2019, 02:33:29 PM
Regarding your solution, that sounds like a recipe for absolving Congress of never having to pass a budget at all. They've already proven a love of kicking CRs down the road for years at a stretch rather than pass a real budget.

I agree that they have, but I think it's only because the consequences have been too light.  They've always paid the military, even when they hold civilian federal workers over the barrel.  They've always issued tax returns, and social security and disability payments.  They've always paid congress. 

I think they'd have much more motivation to find a compromise solution (like the one that already passed the Senate that trump threatened to veto) if the consequences of doing were spread to everyone in government, rather than just civilian federal workers.  I'm not sure why this one little corner of federal spending is always the hot potato, while all those army grunts continue to get paid.  If you're going to shut it down, you shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who gets paid and who doesn't.

Personally I think congress should not get paid until they come to a solution and balance a god damn budget for once.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Apples on January 12, 2019, 02:37:18 PM
In 2018, we got H-2A workers (visa for temporary non-immigrant worker, our guys came from Mexico). 

Are you saying that you support expanding visas for temporary foreign labor, or oppose it?  Because in my mind, if you can't hire Americans to do this hard work for $12/hour, then you're probably not happy about Trump reducing the supply of people who have proper paperwork to pick fruit AND the supply of people who don't have the proper paperwork to pick fruit.


Ah, my post was mostly targeted to say that wages in seasonal agriculture aren't as low as the standards most people seem to think they are.  They are low in places where people work year-round like tomatoes or other crops in Florida and California (and that is usually where all the headline-grabbing stories come from), but overall they're pretty fair for unskilled work.  Our biggest competitor for the seasonal workers outside of other fruit farms is factories with indoor work and slightly longer "seasons" which pay $1-$2 per hour less.  Many people were referencing low/slave wages in agriculture.  While there are estimates that about 50% of field workers in ag are undocumented, so that is definitely where a lot of illegal immigrants are, the wages aren't particularly low.

I, and pretty much all fruit growers, fully support expanding visas for temporary foreign labor.  The number of people brought in all over the country on visas grows by leaps and bounds every year.  (But ideally the process needs to be modernized and less costly.)  And we support a greater supply of workers in general.  There are farms in my area that will have only half the people they need in order to harvest the crop, and leave fruit on the trees.  There's just not enough people right now.  And I want to state that all of our workers show me documents that allow them to work on our farm (whether here on a visa or not).  And we pay over the table, so they pay all related taxes.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 12, 2019, 02:43:33 PM
Personally I think congress should not get paid until they come to a solution and balance a god damn budget for once.

Do you see why they don't do it that way?

I agree that it would seem to make sense, on the surface.  If Congress can't do it's primary job, they shouldn't get paid, right?

The problem is that many of the folks in Congress are independently wealthy before they ever join Congress, and they continue to make vast sums of money while in office from sources other than their congressional salaries.  They won't really feel the pinch.

But some people in Congress, particularly new members who are very young, are sometimes not independently wealthy and they desperately need their congressional salaries in order to set up their congressional offices.  So if the rich folks in Congress don't like any of the newcomers, they could effectively shut down those new reps by just refusing to pass a budget, and ending congressional salaries.  They could, in effect, use their personal wealth to interfere with the fair exercise of democracy.  Senators are supposed to be equal.  Reps are supposed to each get one vote.  Money shouldn't enter into it, right?  We should allow democratically elected congresspeople participate in congress regardless of how rich they are, and withholding congressional salaries would prevent that from happening.

So it's a slightly more complicated situation than just "stop paying the bums" though I admit it does make a catchy slogan.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: kimmarg on January 12, 2019, 02:59:12 PM
Well I think we could safety move this thread to 'off topic' as it's solidly a political debate now.  I started it thinking more about 'overheard at work' style "cant pay my bills" from coworkers.

I'm off to transfer $ from savings to checking to cover the missed paycheck... and then I'm going to work.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sultan58 on January 12, 2019, 03:03:09 PM
you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Relax, kids.  This is a thread specifically devoted to discussing the shutdown, which Trump called a meeting about today.  I think discussing that is fair game in this thread. 




If you feel my contributions are insufficiently substantial on this topic, feel free to contribute something more weighty yourself.  Perhaps an analysis of the GOP compromise plan forming tonight to fund the wall in exchange for actually fixing our immigration system, including DACA and H2-B visas?  If Trump wanted funding for a wall, he probably should have gotten it when his party had full control of both houses of Congress that have the power to allocate funding.  He couldn't get it then, so I'm not sure why he thinks democrats are going to give it to him when even republicans wouldn't.  Personally, I don't think this new compromise plan is offering nearly enough to entice democrats to vote for a wall, but I'll hold off until the two of you have your say on this topic, since it seems my contributions are deemed unworthy.

I see you couldnt hold off from posting another couple of dozen times since my observation and that of others who found you slightly obsessed.. And I was voting long before you were born. Way too much time on your hands I guess...but sadly, one of the risks of FIRE.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 12, 2019, 03:12:44 PM
I see you couldnt hold off from posting another couple of dozen times since

I was trying to give you fair chance, but I also wasn't about to let you just force me to stop posting on the forum for a week with a stray snide comment.

I still welcome your contributions to this conversation, if you have any.  The shutdown is still ongoing, you haven't missed your chance yet.  Please, offer us your insight.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 12, 2019, 03:30:17 PM
Well I think we could safety move this thread to 'off topic' as it's solidly a political debate now.  I started it thinking more about 'overheard at work' style "cant pay my bills" from coworkers.

I'm off to transfer $ from savings to checking to cover the missed paycheck... and then I'm going to work.

Our state Boss sent an e-mail out from the "furlough" conference call.  In it he shared his own oops, apparently he forgot to cancel an auto debit and it "bounced".  Boss makes the non SES Max.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Apples on January 12, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour.

While costing U.S. tax payers far more than that.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

Oooh, this study.  Wonderful.  For the purposes of this response, let's assume our farm follows the national average of about 50% of the field workers being undocumented.  My response boils down to that we would have the same number of people working here for the same wages, independent of immigration status.  We need 60 people to pick apples.  They will make lowish to medium income depending on their skill and if they have dependents.  Average no high school degree U.S. households have a net deficit of over $30,000 of benefits received vs. taxes paid in.  Unlawful immigrant households have a net deficit of over $14,000.  That's right at the beginning of the study.  Seems they're not as expensive as the headline suggests.    But let's look further:

1.  A part of this argument rests on the fact that these people, by virtue of being here, mean increased costs for utilities, police coverage, fire, parks, roads, etc.  In the case of seasonal migrant workers, the same number of people reside here for that part of the year regardless of their immigration status, so these costs don't count.  The fact that a person is here illegally doesn't make a difference in our case.

2.  Same with their children, who often would be citizens.  We have several workers that move around in the U.S. with their families when they come to work for us.  Their subsidized public education (on our local level) is the same regardless of if their parents are legal or illegal - we have enough units for 8 families, and always have about 8 families.  Their immigration status is not relevant.  (There may be employees who have children elsewhere in the country adding to the population, but most of our employees are single guys, or have a girlfriend but no kids.  These people's children would count in that study.)

3.  All of our employees are paid "on the books" and pay all applicable taxes, which as this study notes brings down the deficit in taxes paid in vs. benefits received.  1 chart I looked at looks like that would increase their assumed contributions by $3,000 or almost 1/3.  Many benefits for citizen children - SNAP, WIC, etc. apply to all low income households.  Since we're hiring for lower income work, the legal status doesn't matter for this - they're making the same income and would qualify equally.

4.  There is discussion in the study (when worrying about amnesty) about subsidized medical care - which the study does admit is also something that happens with low-income households.  Well, $12/hour is low income if you're a family, so it doesn't matter if they are legal or illegal with kids here - they will be getting subsidized health care.  Most of our employees go to a local migrant health clinic due to being both low cast and fluent in Spanish.  Since they work here seasonally, they do not receive health insurance through our company.

Shutdown related:  I know a local craft beer brewer who makes seasonal beers throughout the year and is now altering their brewing schedule so they don't have a new beer made but unable to be labeled thanks to the shutdown.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 12, 2019, 03:41:07 PM
Personally I think congress should not get paid until they come to a solution and balance a god damn budget for once.

Do you see why they don't do it that way?

I agree that it would seem to make sense, on the surface.  If Congress can't do it's primary job, they shouldn't get paid, right?

The problem is that many of the folks in Congress are independently wealthy before they ever join Congress, and they continue to make vast sums of money while in office from sources other than their congressional salaries.  They won't really feel the pinch.

But some people in Congress, particularly new members who are very young, are sometimes not independently wealthy and they desperately need their congressional salaries in order to set up their congressional offices.  So if the rich folks in Congress don't like any of the newcomers, they could effectively shut down those new reps by just refusing to pass a budget, and ending congressional salaries.  They could, in effect, use their personal wealth to interfere with the fair exercise of democracy.  Senators are supposed to be equal.  Reps are supposed to each get one vote.  Money shouldn't enter into it, right?  We should allow democratically elected congresspeople participate in congress regardless of how rich they are, and withholding congressional salaries would prevent that from happening.

So it's a slightly more complicated situation than just "stop paying the bums" though I admit it does make a catchy slogan.

Well, that and then add term limits for Congress.  That way they can't sit there getting richer and richer.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 12, 2019, 04:01:09 PM
Gah, way to make me briefly panic guys. Looks like those rules don’t apply to shutdown furlough. There’s a difference between shutdown and administrative furlough.

Quote
NOTE: Reductions in force (RIF) furlough regulations and SES competitive furlough requirements are not applicable to emergency shutdown furloughs because the ultimate duration of an emergency shutdown furlough is unknown at the outset and is dependent entirely on Congressional action, rather than agency action. The RIF furlough regulations and SES competitive furlough requirements, on the other hand, contemplate planned, foreseeable, money-saving furloughs that, at the outset, are planned to exceed 30 days.

OPM guidance, page 29 https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/furlough-guidance/guidance-for-shutdown-furloughs.pdf
Wow thanks for finding that really made my day... Throwing a big hug you way :)

I did not mention what I had found earlier to the wife as it would crush her soul if that were the case.

We will be returning on the 30th day from our vacation and this is a huge stress relief.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: wenchsenior on January 12, 2019, 04:26:19 PM
Phew.  What an epic clusterfuck that would have been.

More so than it already is, I mean.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sultan58 on January 12, 2019, 05:52:44 PM
I see you couldnt hold off from posting another couple of dozen times since

I was trying to give you fair chance, but I also wasn't about to let you just force me to stop posting on the forum for a week with a stray snide comment.

I still welcome your contributions to this conversation, if you have any.  The shutdown is still ongoing, you haven't missed your chance yet.  Please, offer us your insight.

Keep firing away....I understand now by the volume of your postings that anonymous posting is like air to you. Personally, I'm not letting the shutdown rule my thought life.  Got much more productive ways to occupy my time. I vote and go my way.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 12, 2019, 06:47:37 PM

Personally I think congress should not get paid until they come to a solution and balance a god damn budget for once.

I heard a better suggestion on the radio - no pay for congress if they haven't approved a budget starting Oct 1 of the previous year.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fi(re) on the Farm on January 12, 2019, 06:51:03 PM
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour. for 45-50 hour weeks  While they are here, their housing and transportation are provided for.  Yes, it's difficult to raise a family on those wages, but it's not minimum wage.  While picking fruit, and earning piece rate wages, they earn an average of $9-$20 an hour (the fittest make the most money).  We can. not. hire American citizens to do this work.  We've had people show up and leave in the middle of the afternoon because they think it's too hard.  It is hard.  There's no way around it.  You have to be in shape to do this kind of work.  Our wages are competitive for our area - no one is paying much less, because the employee information chain is solid, so they know exactly  how much people are making other places and are willing to leave for better conditions.  Sometimes those better conditions are that a crew leader will let them drink some beer on the job. *eye roll*

In 2018, we got H-2A workers (visa for temporary non-immigrant worker, our guys came from Mexico).  The U.S. government sets a wage rate* based on overall wages in the industry for that kind of work.  This applies to H-2A workers and any other workers doing the same job (so our entire seasonal crew).  The wage rate was...drumroll...$12.05.   While in theory, yes if we paid $50/hour there would be plenty of American citizens willing to do the work, on the other hand this is a job that takes skill but none you need an education or more than on-the-job training for.

In other news, I have a friend who works for the Dept. of the Interior who goes out and does those periodic weather and conditions measurements for streams around our state, and he hasn't worked in weeks.  So that data for those weeks will never have been gathered, and they are now very behind on some water quality tests.

*based on flawed survey data and analysis, but no need to go into that
This is what people don't understand about the immigration debate. I live in apple  orchard country, Right now most of the orchards hire pickers that come on agricultural worker visas from Jamaica.  They come for the season and then go home.  We changed our ag worker visa program so people from Mexico can no longer come,  pick and then go. Most ag workers used to be able to work for a season and go back to their families,  now when they come they can't go back so they bring their families here.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DaMa on January 12, 2019, 07:35:16 PM
I for one certainly appreciate Sol's input to the political debates on these boards.  His points are always well-thought and researched. 
Thank you, Sol!
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sultan58 on January 12, 2019, 08:22:07 PM
I see you couldnt hold off from posting another couple of dozen times since

I was trying to give you fair chance, but I also wasn't about to let you just force me to stop posting on the forum for a week with a stray snide comment.

I still welcome your contributions to this conversation, if you have any.  The shutdown is still ongoing, you haven't missed your chance yet.  Please, offer us your insight.

Keep firing away....I understand now by the volume of your postings that anonymous posting is like air to you. Personally, I'm not letting the shutdown rule my thought life.  Got much more productive ways to occupy my time. I vote and go my way.

Just had to pop back in to let us all know how much wiser/more productive you are than sol though, eh?

[emoji]eye-roll[/emoji]

Oh not wiser....just less inclined to spend much of my life shouting on the internet about things I cannot control. Keep feeding Sol though...he thrives on it. Enjoy your thread.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Sailor Sam on January 12, 2019, 08:53:59 PM
I see you couldnt hold off from posting another couple of dozen times since

I was trying to give you fair chance, but I also wasn't about to let you just force me to stop posting on the forum for a week with a stray snide comment.

I still welcome your contributions to this conversation, if you have any.  The shutdown is still ongoing, you haven't missed your chance yet.  Please, offer us your insight.

Keep firing away....I understand now by the volume of your postings that anonymous posting is like air to you. Personally, I'm not letting the shutdown rule my thought life.  Got much more productive ways to occupy my time. I vote and go my way.

Just had to pop back in to let us all know how much wiser/more productive you are than sol though, eh?

[emoji]eye-roll[/emoji]

Oh not wiser....just less inclined to spend much of my life shouting on the internet about things I cannot control. Keep feeding Sol though...he thrives on it. Enjoy your thread.

@Sultan58, this forum has rules. You are breaking them. You will stop, or you will move along.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 12, 2019, 10:42:51 PM
Venture capitalist: AI will displace 40 percent of world's jobs in as soon as 15 years
Kai-Fu Lee, a pioneer in artificial intelligence and venture capitalist based in China, tells 60 Minutes it won't just be blue collar jobs that are displaced by AI. See the full story, Sunday at 7 p.m. ET/PT on CBS


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venture-capitalist-kai-fu-lee-ai-will-displace-40-percent-of-worlds-jobs-in-as-soon-as-15-years-60-minutes/


Yet the US needs more low skilled labor to put even more black people out of work and increase black unemployment even higher than it is already.  Black unemployment is the highest of all ethnic groups.  Africa Americans greatly hurt by bringing yet more low skilled labor.   Those that say they care more about Africa American DO NOT CARE AT ALL.


 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 12, 2019, 11:49:16 PM
I'm for the wall because I have family and friends who live and work at the bottom.  I genuinely feel sorry for those at the bottom in the US.  I read the negative messages on here about the wall and ask myself if I'm on the right side of this issue, but I can't ignore what I've seen and heard from family and friends.   I'm all over the map on this topic as a witness too, I've lived in California where many immigrants live, my wife is an immigrant and has only lived in the US 10 years, and I've already mentioned many of my family and friends are working retail, construction, trucking driving jobs.  They merely want to make a living wage and live in reasonably good housing, but they compete with people willing to work for very low wages and willing to live far below US standards just to survive in the US because life in the US is orderly compared to their homeland.  Many immigrates don't have degrees and aren't working at Google, but more often not very educated (again, I'm a witness to this), when petitioned, they are allowed into the US so there is a large supply of labor at the bottom that keeps wages down.  I lived in CA for 12 years, but I'm from MD and I currently live a few minutes outside Baltimore.  Not only do I think too much immigration hurts all people at the bottom, but I think it doubly hurts blacks.  "The rate for Blacks or African Americans was 6.2 percent, down by 1.1 percentage points from the October 2017 rate. The rate for people of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity was 4.4 percent in October 2018."*

The repubs were once viewed as aligning with business so bring on the immigrates to fuel corporations with cheap labor was the thinking.  That truly was how repubs were viewed and a google search could easily provide quotes from dems stating exactly that while dems spoke up for working conditions and protecting wages.  While the repub establishment can't claim they've cared much about workers, I see dems as caring a lot less than they once did.  DJT has turned the repubs upside down so it is hard to say what direction repubs will go after DJT is gone - they could double down on aligning with workers hoping to take electoral college votes from all the states DJT won in 2016 - that might be their strategy going forward. 

There are plenty of dems that made very bold anti-illegal immigrant statements prior to when DJT was elected.  I keep thinking their opposition to the wall is purely to oppose DJT no matter what he does since no matter what you think of DJT, he surely has upset the status quo in D.C. for both repubs and dems.  It is a corrupt city, corrupt to its core.
 
BTW Cesar Chavez, a labor union icon, opposed illegal immigrants and supported restricting immigration, because he thought immigrants weakened unions and kept wages low.  Illegal immigrants were used by farmers as strikebreakers.   Chavez knew a large supply of labor would weak the demand so affecting wages and more.  Chavez was a dem, dems marched and protested with him.  I can't forget this.

All of my support for the wall, is based on my support for workers at the bottom who already live in the US.  I'm for the people already here even if they are illegal.  I simply feel we need a wall or a steel barrier to slow down arrivals by making  it more difficult to cross.  Employ cameras and drones too, no problem, but I feel those things are simply identifying people who have already crossed.  Once they have crossed, it is difficult to return them it seems so first line of defense has to give those trying to enter a challenge physically. 

I want corporations to be starving for labor even if prices increase.  I want workers so powerful by there being fewer of them.  I want labor to be so low that corporations must develop their own training programs as well fund high school training programs.  I want American workers so rich that they'll decide to have more kids.  I want labor to be so strong corporations will provide free health care and onsite childcare.   I want corporations to be slaves to labor rather than labor being slaves to corporations.   

*https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/unemployment-rate-2-point-7-percent-for-people-ages-45-to-54-8-point-3-percent-for-ages-16-to-24-in-october-2018.htm

FenderBender,

I find your argument that allowing low wage labor into the country harms poor Americans by depressing wages to be rational and compelling.  I just don't think the answer is to build a wall. 

Building a wall might slow down some entry across our southern border (emphasis on might) at a cost of billions of dollars.  But it will do nothing to slow down those immigrants who came in legally with visas and decided to stay.  Right now, nobody knows the exact percentages of overstays vs illegal crossings, but older data indicates that it might be in the neighborhood of 50%.  We could make it harder to get a visa to the US, but it is already pretty difficult for most people and we don't want to discourage legitimate foreign visitors from coming here as tourists or students and spendng their money. 

More importantly, why build a wall in the hope of creating a demand for US labor when current immigration law legally brings in low skill, low wage labor under the H2 program?  Employers (including Trump) legally bring in low skill workers to do everything from agricultural work to working in hotels and resorts.  Their argument is that no Americans will fill their jobs, so they have to bring in unskilled foreign labor.  (Of course, if they paid a better wage, more Americans might be willing to do those jobs.)  If we build a wall and it actually slows down the number of illegal workers coming in, do you think those employers will raise their wages?  Or will they simply continue to insist that nobody will fill their jobs and demand more visas for foreign workers?   

As long as there are foreigners for whom moving to the US to do low-wage labor will provide a major step up in life and there are American employers who prefer to hire illegal labor rather than pay a wage that American citizens will accept, there's going to be both a supply and a demand for illegal immigration.  A wall isn't going to change that. 

If you want to break that supply and demand relationship, the effective thing would be to require that employers verify legal status of their employees and penalize them if they hire illegal immigrants.  This would cause the demand side to shrink incredibly quickly.  I also think we should eliminate visa programs for unskilled and low skilled workers.  There will be workers to do those jobs if the wages go up.  I do support H2 visas for highly skilled workers, but to me this means engineers, scientists, and eminent scholars.  It shouldn't mean fashion models (because there are no attractive Americans qualified to wear clothes?), not that I'm pointing any fingers... 

To me, this effort against illegal immigration looks a lot like our failed "war on drugs."  For all our efforts, street level cocaine prices in the US are down, not up over the years, because people will always find a way to supply what Americans will pay $100 per gram for.  If we really wanted to change that, we'd have to reduce demand.   Immigration is the same.  If you want to reduce illegal immigration, just stop employers from giving them jobs.  Don't waste time, money, and effort to build a wall to try to stop people from coming to America to take the jobs American employers continue to offer.

5 billion of 4 trillion is peanuts.  Both sides have voted in the past to spend far more on a physical barrier along with other things to support border security. 

No time to type anymore.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 13, 2019, 02:07:06 AM

5 billion of 4 trillion is peanuts.  Both sides have voted in the past to spend far more on a physical barrier along with other things to support border security. 


And then haven't spent it.  Which suggests that it has no real purpose: if it did the projects would be planned and ready to go and just waiting for the money.

Also, 5 billion here and 5 billion there soon adds up to real money, don't you know.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Fomerly known as something on January 13, 2019, 07:10:52 AM
Some people have posted on twitter photos of their $0.00 pay stub.  My stub usually appears on Sunday on the NFC website, there is nothing there.  No accounting of anything for me,

How life sucks when people try to do good things.  The local American Legion near a Coast Guard Station, offered a free Meal on Wednesdays and Saturdays (nights they have food).  Now it comes out that per those ethics rules I mentioned Friday, the Coast Guard members cannot accept the free meal because of their position. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Davnasty on January 13, 2019, 08:11:20 AM

5 billion of 4 trillion is peanuts.  Both sides have voted in the past to spend far more on a physical barrier along with other things to support border security. 


And then haven't spent it.  Which suggests that it has no real purpose: if it did the projects would be planned and ready to go and just waiting for the money.

Also, 5 billion here and 5 billion there soon adds up to real money, don't you know.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/ 

And national solvency is made in somewhat larger increments :)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 13, 2019, 08:38:57 AM
This entire crisis just goes to show you that the Mustachian way is the only way to live, because people will not do the ethical or morally right thing unless they are forced to do it. There is a huge swath of Americans who see no problem with cutting off pay to hundreds of thousands of their fellow Americans over an issue that has nothing to do with those employees. The employees have done absolutely nothing wrong, yet they suffer because fuck them.

This is why people should live far below their means, invest everything they possibly can, save everything they possibly can, and produce as much as possible for their own personal use. Nobody is coming to help and nobody is coming to save you. It's up to each individual person to prepare for the absolute worst every day and create their own wealth and their own income.

I wish things were different, but this is the reality we have to live with.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FenderBender on January 13, 2019, 09:11:34 AM
disgusting:

As shutdown drags on, (democrat) pols take chartered jet to Caribbean, see ‘Hamilton’
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 13, 2019, 09:14:04 AM
.. There is a huge swath of Americans who see no problem with cutting off pay to hundreds of thousands of their fellow Americans over an issue that has nothing to do with those employees. ..

I haven't seen any documentation that there exists a "a huge swath of Americans who see no problem", but it is true that most people are not affected and don't know of anyone who is affected. I think most people see a problem with the government being shut down as a restriction in their access to services for a period while the political flap gets sorted out.  TSA could affect more people if they stop working but seems to be running smoothly so far. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: maizefolk on January 13, 2019, 09:20:03 AM
Higher numbers of TSA workers are quiting, driving the TSA to send out a $500 bonus (retroactively for work done during the holiday season, which is I guess how they got around the shutdown rules) to people who remain on the job, even though they cannot pay them properly.

Source: https://www.phillyvoice.com/tsa-workers-given-one-days-pay-500-bonus-amid-22-day-government-shutdown/
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 13, 2019, 09:29:47 AM
I went to Walgreens last week and paid with dollar coins and quarters and while paying apologized and explained that my wife was furloughed due to the government shutdown and the person (probably mid 30's) said she did not realize that the shutdown was real and thought it was just a joke when someone posted it on her Facebook page and asked me all kinds of questions.

Wife has had a similar response from the co-workers at her side gig.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 13, 2019, 10:09:59 AM
disgusting:

As shutdown drags on, (democrat) pols take chartered jet to Caribbean, see ‘Hamilton’

Meh, I'm not too worried.  They did their job, and passed a bipartisan budget that re-opens the government and funds border security.  What else do you want from them?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Roland of Gilead on January 13, 2019, 10:20:47 AM
I think there could be compromise on both sides.  The Dems don't want to cave into funding a wall, even though the $5B is about 1 or 2 days of the lost productivity this shutdown has cost the US.  The Repubs need some sort of win on border security.

Craft a bill that establishes $5B to $10B additional funds for electronic monitoring of the border plus additional trained personal to deal with unauthorized entry into the USA and both parties can claim a win.   No wall built but we get some extra border security.

We could then move on to more important topics like healthcare, energy, etc.

This shutdown is just stupid posturing by both sides.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Khaetra on January 13, 2019, 10:33:51 AM
I think there could be compromise on both sides.  The Dems don't want to cave into funding a wall, even though the $5B is about 1 or 2 days of the lost productivity this shutdown has cost the US.  The Repubs need some sort of win on border security.

Craft a bill that establishes $5B to $10B additional funds for electronic monitoring of the border plus additional trained personal to deal with unauthorized entry into the USA and both parties can claim a win.   No wall built but we get some extra border security.

We could then move on to more important topics like healthcare, energy, etc.

This shutdown is just stupid posturing by both sides.

There have been bills drafted like this.  He not only turned down the original that gave him $25B, but he said flatly he will not sign ANY bill that doesn't include money for 'Peaches' (yes, he named his wall Peaches...I can't even...).  McConnell and crew have the power to go over him and pass any of these bills, but they refuse. 

I support border security but not a wall.  We have so much tech available for the BC to do their jobs easier and more effectively than a wall ever could and I would gladly spend that amount on those things.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 13, 2019, 10:39:54 AM
Craft a bill that establishes $5B to $10B additional funds for electronic monitoring of the border plus additional trained personal to deal with unauthorized entry into the USA and both parties can claim a win.   No wall built but we get some extra border security.

The democrats in the House have already passed four different minibus bills that would fund individual agencies that are unrelated to the shutdown, like Treasury and Interior.  They have already offered billions for border security.  Trump says he will veto them, so the republican Senate majority leader won't allow them to advance to a vote in the Senate.

I mean, your compromise solutions sounds totally reasonable to me, except that Trump has already turned it down.  He says he will keep the shutdown going until the end of his term unless he gets to build a wall with his name on it.  He doesn't care if "both parties can claim a win", he only cares about getting his symbolic wall built and he has offered exactly zero in exchange.  I think democrats like Schumer, who are career politicians accustomed to ugly compromise, would happily give him his useless wall if he was actually offering something in exchange, like green cards or a DACA fix.  That's how negotiations are supposed to work, right?  Instead, he is 100% stuck in $5.7billion for a border wall as an absolute demand, with no room for compromise on the amount, the way it is spent, or any other funding for fixing our immigration system.  That's not a negotiation, that's a hostage situation.

Trump has made one singular demand and thinks government should not function unless Congress bends to his will.  Except that's not how divided government works, as specified in the Constitution.  Congress gets to decide on the budget, not the president, and Congress has already reached a budget compromise that passed both houses.  It doesn't include $5.7billion for a useless wall.

Also important to remember, I think, is that Trump couldn't even get his useless border wall built when his own party controlled all of Congress.  He had two full years of this "crisis" to do something unopposed, and his own party wouldn't concede on this point so why does he think his position has improved after losing a blue wave midterm election?

My family is basically immune from the financial impacts of the shutdown, because we are diligent savers with multiple income streams, but many of my former coworkers are not so lucky.  I feel bad for the new hires, 25 years old and bright-eyed, thrilled to be contributing to something meaningful but barely able to afford city rents month to month, who now aren't getting paid.  I'm hoping they have a rich parents they can rely on or something.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 10:46:16 AM

Good interview with Ted Cruz today related to this issue and the democrat obstructionism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNurJ8wE4bY
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 13, 2019, 11:23:29 AM
Based on what i formation I have accumulated it seems that some form of fencing/wall does hinder immigration and drug trafficking. The current barriers we have now are delapidated and in need of repair while while there are areas that more fencing would help further.

The comment that a barrier is useless I see is incorrect. It seems like a barrier is just one tool necessary to fix the problem at hand.

What I am seeing is that the Democrats will not agree to any sort of barrier improvement and I am curious as to why. Maybe I’m incorrect and willing to be proven wrong, but why not repair the broken fencing we have now and put up some more fencing in areas that it is appropriate?  That seems like a reasonable compromise.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 11:32:16 AM
Based on what i formation I have accumulated it seems that some form of fencing/wall does hinder immigration and drug trafficking. The current barriers we have now are delapidated and in need of repair while while there are areas that more fencing would help further.

The comment that a barrier is useless I see is incorrect. It seems like a barrier is just one tool necessary to fix the problem at hand.

Exactly, it's just one of the tools.  Democrats keep using the same talking point about what the border wall doesn't stop as if all other enforcement mechanisms were to be abandoned if a wall were to be built.

Quote
What I am seeing is that the Democrats will not agree to any sort of barrier improvement and I am curious as to why. Maybe I’m incorrect and willing to be proven wrong, but why not repair the broken fencing we have now and put up some more fencing in areas that it is appropriate?  That seems like a reasonable compromise.

You are exactly right.  And of course, the democrats supported it and voted for additional border wall before Trump came along.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 13, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
I think there could be compromise on both sides.  The Dems don't want to cave into funding a wall, even though the $5B is about 1 or 2 days of the lost productivity this shutdown has cost the US.  The Repubs need some sort of win on border security.

Craft a bill that establishes $5B to $10B additional funds for electronic monitoring of the border plus additional trained personal to deal with unauthorized entry into the USA and both parties can claim a win.   No wall built but we get some extra border security.

We could then move on to more important topics like healthcare, energy, etc.

This shutdown is just stupid posturing by both sides.

No, it's stupid posturing by Trump, backed by a silent McConnell.

Seriously. All the pieces have been described repeatedly in this thread.

Ignore DreamFire and EnjoyIt - they are just rationalizing Trump's tantrum and seem really afraid of dem liberals.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 13, 2019, 11:52:33 AM
twisted logic

Yup.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 13, 2019, 11:53:45 AM

It's not about The Wall, really.  The Dems offered a huge sum (I think $25B) and in return they wanted protection for the Dreamers.  He turned it down.  He had ample opportunity while having control of both the House and Senate to get money for his wall, yet only RIGHT NAO is it an emergency (how convenient since the Dems now have the House).  This is a man-baby who has probably never been told no and now is not only being told no, but being told no by a WOMAN!  It's more about control and I blame the GOP for not marching into the Oval and telling him to his face that not only is shutting down the Gov't a bad idea, but hell no pal, it ain't happening.  Border security yes, wall no.

It wasn't even that the "turned it down" - Trump had agreed to that deal publicly and then reneged.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 13, 2019, 12:05:09 PM
Based on what i formation I have accumulated it seams that some form of fencing/wall does hinder immigration and drug trafficking.

What information is that?  Because the big drug trial underway today, for example, explicitly mentions that drugs don't come though unfenced borders:  https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/12/us/drug-traffickers-el-chapo-trial-drugs-across-border/index.html

Maybe small time neighborhood dealers?  The cartels don't do it that way, because it's not cost effective.  Why would they drive for a hundred miles through the desert instead of using a major highway or port facility?

Quote
What I am seeing is that the Democrats will not agree to any sort of barrier improvement and I am curious as to why.

Why do you see that?  Democrats have approved billions for border security, including new fencing, on multiple occasions.  Trump keeps turning them down.  He turned down the 1.3b in the current House budget bill, he turned down the 2.7b offerred to Mike Pence two weeks ago, and he turned down the $25b the democrats offered him last year in exchange for a DACA fix.

I think democrats will absolutely give him border wall funding, as soon as he's willing to negotiate instead of just make demands.  Our immigration problems are enormous, and will not be solved by a wall.  We need a DACA fix.  We need more H-2 visas.  We need to stop separating children from their parents and locking them in cages.  We need seasonal greencards to meet unmet demand for labor in the ag industry.  We need funding to expand the immigration courts to deal with the backlog of asylum seekers.  So far, Trump has refused to offer ANY of that in exchange for more border wall funding than is already on the table.

Democrats have offered him wall funding multiple times, and been rebuffed each time because they also wanted to fix the underlying problems that a wall will not fix.  Trump refuses each time, because he doesn't care about fixing immigration, only about building an ineffective but deeply symbolic wall. 

But this is all a sideshow anyway.  The president's job is not to set the national budget.  Congress is supposed to do that, and they already passed a bipartisan budget compromise that funds border security and re-opens the government.  It passed unanimously in the Senate, which now refuses to allow it to advance.  I think it's hard to argue that democrats are being obstructionist in this case when every single democratic senator voted for the budget compromise including border security in the last Senate session, and the democratic House has passed multiple bills in to reopen the government and fund border security in the new session which the republican Senate refuses to consider despite having more than the required 2/3 support required to override Trump's veto.

At this point, I think the eventual solution is that republican senators beg Trump to relent because he is hurting their party's electoral chances.  He either relents, and looks bad, or he holds strong and forces republican senators to pass a budget over his veto, and he looks bad. 
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: msilenus on January 13, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Why do you see that?  Democrats have approved billions for border security, including new fencing, on multiple occasions.  Trump keeps turning them down.  He turned down the 1.3b in the current House budget bill, he turned down the 2.7b offerred to Mike Pence two weeks ago, and he turned down the $25b the democrats offered him last year in exchange for a DACA fix.

I think democrats will absolutely give him border wall funding, as soon as he's willing to negotiate instead of just make demands.  Our immigration problems are enormous, and will not be solved by a wall.  We need a DACA fix.  We need more H-2 visas.  We need to stop separating children from their parents and locking them in cages.  We need seasonal greencards to meet unmet demand for labor in the ag industry.  We need funding to expand the immigration courts to deal with the backlog of asylum seekers.  So far, Trump has refused to offer ANY of that in exchange for more border wall funding than is already on the table. 

Democrats have offered him wall funding multiple times, and been rebuffed each time because they also wanted to fix the underlying problems that a wall will not fix.  Trump refuses each time, because he doesn't care about fixing immigration, only about building an ineffective but deeply symbolic wall. 

But this is all a sideshow anyway.  The president's job is not to set the national budget.  Congress is supposed to do that, and they already passed a bipartisan budget compromise that funds border security and re-opens the government.  It passed unanimously in the Senate, which now refuses to allow it to advance.  I think it's hard to argue that democrats are being obstructionist in this case when every single democratic senator voted for the budget compromise including border security in the last Senate session, and the democratic House has passed multiple bills in to reopen the government and fund border security in the new session which the republican Senate refuses to consider despite having more than the required 2/3 support required to override Trump's veto.

At this point, I think the eventual solution is that republican senators beg Trump to relent because he is hurting their party's electoral chances.  He either relents, and looks bad, or he holds strong and forces republican senators to pass a budget over his veto, and he looks bad.

That is all basically true.  (I think I've seen some different numbers, but nothing more than ~10% different, so nothing that changes the thrust of these arguments.)  I would only add two things:

1) The best explanation I've seen for *why* the DACA protection deal failed is because the Wall is mostly a symbolic gesture.  (Say: after the first $1b, if we're being generous.)  So if you're a policy-oriented white nationalist -like, say: Stephen Miller- trading a huge substantive concession like DACA for a full wall is actually taking the country in the opposite direction than what you want.  Appeasing both Donald Trump and the pragmatic white nationalists requires two huge and separate concessions packages (massive wall funding and steep legal immigration cuts), and that puts the price outside of what Democrats would be willing to pay.  This is useful to point out now because it means Republicans are unlikely to rethink their earlier failure to take yes for an answer on the wall, so it will probably be something else that gets us out of this.

2) Even if Trump were willing to sign a <$1b unilateral concession (again: he's not, as the Pence debacle shows) then Democrats should still reject that while the government is closed.   Responsible leaders don't reward hostage taking with unilateral concessions because it incentivizes future rounds of hostage taking.  As long as Trump is offering nothing of value in exchange for his wall and holding the government hostage over it, Democrats would be irresponsible to give him any more than zero dollars for it.  To give him wall money would be to guarantee a repeat of this exercise the next time a funding bill comes due.  It's like a parent giving a screaming toddler ice cream: it doesn't make you a shitty parent because it fails to solve the immediate problem, it makes you a shitty parent because it sets up a dynamic that will keep repeating until you nut up and do what you should have done the first time.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 13, 2019, 01:06:01 PM

Ignore DreamFire and EnjoyIt - they are just rationalizing Trump's tantrum and seem really afraid of dem liberals.

@TomTX
Why do you say that about me?  I think Trump is being pretty asinine on the subject and has rejected some decent options in the past.  I suspect he has some other ulterior motive I just can't figure out. I really don't think he actually wants to build a wall.  There must be something else on his agenda.

@sol,
I try not to get my news from cnn or from fox.  Both are very similar in propaganda and bullshit tossing.  But I have spoken to border patrol who have talked about and shown me images of their own drug seizures from those crossing over the border.  Drugs and people can easily cross, since there is no barrier to speak of.  Drug cartels use any and every means necessary to haul drugs into the US.  Personally i think they should all be legalized and all this trafficking would come to a complete stop.

As for agreements, please point me to a particular situation except for one that includes DACA where the dems said OK in putting up some form of barrier.  I am seriously curious.  I admit that I have not gone all out looking for it and willing to change my position on the subject if appropriate information is presented.  Please nothing from Huffington Post or CNN though.  Again, I use those news organizations not for data but to help me understand how the crazy left think just as I use the Drudge Report and Fox to see how the crazy right think.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: TomTX on January 13, 2019, 01:17:44 PM


@TomTX
Why do you say that about me?  I think Trump is being pretty asinine on the subject and has rejected some decent options in the past.  I suspect he has some other ulterior motive I just can't figure out. I really don't think he actually wants to build a wall.  There must be something else on his agenda.


I must have mistaken you for someone else. My apologies.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 13, 2019, 01:25:00 PM
I know that many of you will disagree on this, but I just don't think Trump is a stupid racist child who can't handle not getting what he wants.  I believe he is actually very intelligent and has been able to amass a large fortune through the manipulation of the media and of people. I suspect he is an expert at getting what he wants and does not care if he looks stupid doing so.  I don't know if this makes him a good president for everyone, but it does make him very effective despite all the media controversy and divisiveness it creates.  This wall controversy is likely a ruse to accomplish something else. If some sort of barrier comes with it, great for those who want it.  There is something else he is working on.

The voters of the US have been fed up with the politicians.  They are sick and tired of all the corruption and self serving politics we have been seeing for decades and they voted for a populist (I know Sol, only 46% voted for him vs 48% for Clinton.)  This is also the reason why Bernie Sanders was so popular as well.  I can't remember all the details but Hillary did some unscrupulous things to keep votes away from him.  Americans will continue to push populists along until our politicians straighten up their act and do something for the American people instead of the Corporations that keep funding their re-elections.  Our politicians are failing us and we need a changing of the guards.  Chuck, Nancy, Mitch, Lindsey, etc have all got to go.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Michael in ABQ on January 13, 2019, 01:39:16 PM
Based on what i formation I have accumulated it seams that some form of fencing/wall does hinder immigration and drug trafficking.

What information is that?  Because the big drug trial underway today, for example, explicitly mentions that drugs don't come though unfenced borders:  https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/12/us/drug-traffickers-el-chapo-trial-drugs-across-border/index.html

Maybe small time neighborhood dealers?  The cartels don't do it that way, because it's not cost effective.  Why would they drive for a hundred miles through the desert instead of using a major highway or port facility?


Coyote's (human smugglers) sometimes make the people they're taking across the border carry drugs as well as pay them in cash. If Border Patrol shows up the people can hide or abandon the drugs and claim that they're just immigrants. Usually it's bales of low-grade marijuana which are bulky and of relatively low value. I agree you probably don't have someone carrying 50lbs of cocaine on their person generally, the risk of being caught and losing that product is too high. A bale of Marijuana has a much lower value and is too bulky to hide enough inside a small compartment in a vehicle.


I'm in the New Mexico Army National Guard and have served with many people who are Border Patrol agents full time or work on the Counter Drug Surveillance (CDS) program https://www.nationalguard.mil/Portals/31/Resources/Fact%20Sheets/Counterdrug%20Fact%20Sheet%20(Dec.%202017).pdf . This is a federally funded program that exist in the National Guard in every state. You have Soldiers on temporary active duty that help out law enforcements (Border Patrol, DEA, local police, etc.) with surveillance for cunter-drug. This can include helicopters as well as ground-based surveillance. Most of their work is out in the desert, far from all of the parts around El Paso. I've seen the pictures and heard the stories straight from their mouth of seizing hundreds of pounds of drugs carried by people through the open desert.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 01:52:13 PM
In addition to the drugs, countless illegal aliens cross the border, leaving large amounts of trash behind, decorating rape trees, and worse.

The democrats voted for a border wall as part of The Secure Fence Act of 2006 which didn't include amnesty for any illegals.

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061026-1.html
https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/2006-secure-fence-act-vs-trumps-border-wall
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/109-2006/h446

For cable news, msnbc is even worse than CNN for left wing bias.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 13, 2019, 02:05:23 PM
I can't see the president has anything to lose by holding out for his wall indefinitely. He holds all the cards so no reason to negotiate. Congress will eventually be forced to flinch, but they will delay as long as possible and be dysfunctional about it.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: former player on January 13, 2019, 02:23:21 PM
In addition to the drugs, countless illegal aliens cross the border, leaving large amounts of trash behind, decorating rape trees, and worse.

The democrats voted for a border wall as part of The Secure Fence Act of 2006 which didn't include amnesty for any illegals.

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061026-1.html
https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/2006-secure-fence-act-vs-trumps-border-wall
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/109-2006/h446

For cable news, msnbc is even worse than CNN for left wing bias.

So if the dems voted the money for a border wall 12 years ago what has been happening since?  Have the most urgent parts been built?  Are there costed plans for parts of the wall that still need to be built?   Trump wants $5B, where are the plans which explain how that money is going to be spent and how it will improve security?  Have they been published?  Put to Congress?  Consulted upon?

Because without any of those things that $5B will either remain unspent or will go into a black hole of corruption, quite possibly one involving Trump cronies.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: msilenus on January 13, 2019, 03:28:23 PM
So if the dems voted the money for a border wall 12 years ago what has been happening since?  Have the most urgent parts been built?  Are there costed plans for parts of the wall that still need to be built?   Trump wants $5B, where are the plans which explain how that money is going to be spent and how it will improve security?  Have they been published?  Put to Congress?  Consulted upon?

Because without any of those things that $5B will either remain unspent or will go into a black hole of corruption, quite possibly one involving Trump cronies.

This Cato piece answers a lot of your questions:
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work?fbclid=IwAR3q4SyNz7Gu7biDuKOVpxtHrTtwYalM2vW3k3YXwQa1rIWcAxJ7JQA2q5k

The short version is that fencing has been deployed along most of the border where it makes sense.  Where it isn't deployed yet there are good reasons why it hasn't, such as treaty and environmental concerns w.r.t. the Rio Grande river, legal issues surrounding eminent domain, et cetera. 

The political context of the fencing bill is also important to remember.  The conservative line at the time was "no immigration reform until we have border security."  There have since been a lot of concessions to conservatives that have dramatically increased border security, including that fencing, but also drones, and vast funding increases for patrols.  That's all been fairly successful, so most new undocumented immigrants today overstay visas, and the people fleeing from Central America are generally turning themselves in to seek asylum.  (We need judges to deal with the Central American migrant crisis.)

Which is to say: since we're past the point where the merits support more large-scale fencing efforts, we're also past the point where Democrats are going to vote for them without coupling such votes to serious immigration reforms.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 03:49:35 PM

The border wall will pay for itself.  The democrats thought it was a good idea until Trump became president.  See the links in my previous post.  Now, it's all about obstruction for the democrats while they sacrifice safety for American citizens.

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." – Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: the_fixer on January 13, 2019, 04:01:27 PM
@msilenus

"2) Even if Trump were willing to sign a &lt;$1b unilateral concession (again: he's not, as the Pence debacle shows) then Democrats should still reject that while the government is closed.   Responsible leaders don't reward hostage taking with unilateral concessions because it incentivizes future rounds of hostage taking.  As long as Trump is offering nothing of value in exchange for his wall and holding the government hostage over it, Democrats would be irresponsible to give him any more than zero dollars for it.  To give him wall money would be to guarantee a repeat of this exercise the next time a funding bill comes due.  It's like a parent giving a screaming toddler ice cream: it doesn't make you a shitty parent because it fails to solve the immediate problem, it makes you a shitty parent because it sets up a dynamic that will keep repeating until you nut up and do what you should have done the first time"

-----------------

While I agree it is childish to keep the government shutdown to get what you want I would also like to point out that both parties have used this tactic. People act like this is the first time it has ever happened but 1995 - 1996 come to mind for example





Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 13, 2019, 04:08:16 PM
I can't see the president has anything to lose by holding out for his wall indefinitely. He holds all the cards so no reason to negotiate. Congress will eventually be forced to flinch, but they will delay as long as possible and be dysfunctional about it.

I'm not sure why you think the president has any cards at all.  He literally has no say on the federal budget, per the Constitution.  He can veto a budget that Congress passes, but since the budget compromise has already passed the House and then the Senate with a veto-proof majority, it doesn't matter what Trump wants.

I agree that Congress will flinch eventually, by sending Trump the budget compromise they have already worked out, or one very similar to it, and letting him veto it or not, and then overriding his veto if he does.  Right now McConnell is preventing that from happening, but that won't last forever.  He's not as keen to keep the US government closed for the next two years.

On a side note, how long do we think the government has to stay shut down before they start floating the idea of NOT giving back pay to all of those furloughed federal workers?  Six months?  Two years?  At some point, people are going to have to look for other jobs to feed their children, and after that I think republicans might suggest that they don't deserve back pay, or only deserve a few paychecks worth of back pay instead of their entire annual salaries paid retroactively all at once.

DreamFIRE, you should probably stop posting links from the daily caller.  You might as well post links to stormfront.org at this point, because nobody can possibly take you seriously if you're taking that stuff seriously.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 13, 2019, 04:20:54 PM
DreamFIRE, you should probably stop posting links from the daily caller.  You might as well post links to stormfront.org at this point, because nobody can possibly take you seriously if you're taking that stuff seriously.

I agree.  We should just all agree to not posting links from any of the far left and far right propaganda/fake news publications:  Lets make a list:
Daily Caller
Drudge report
Fox
CNN
MSNBC
Huffington Post

Anything else?
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: SnackDog on January 13, 2019, 04:29:17 PM
McConnell has already lost serious face by developing a compromise budget and then having it vetoed and his face rubbed in it. By the man holding the veto card.  He will not put forth another budget unless he is sure it will be approved OR it has gotten so disastrously late in 2019 (or 2020) that regular voters are affected the shutdown and begin to grumble.  At the moment the grumbling is limited mostly to congress, the press and people missing their paycheck.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 13, 2019, 04:33:44 PM
We should just all agree to not posting links from any of the far left and far right propaganda/fake news publications:  Lets make a list:
Daily Caller
Drudge report
Fox
CNN
MSNBC
Huffington Post

Anything else?

If you think CNN belongs on that list, I'm afraid we're not going to find much agreement.  CNN has been a respected news network for 30 years.  The Daily Caller was started by a conservative activist tv personality for the sole purpose of spreading misinformation.  These things are not the same, in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: EnjoyIt on January 13, 2019, 04:37:32 PM
We should just all agree to not posting links from any of the far left and far right propaganda/fake news publications:  Lets make a list:
Daily Caller
Drudge report
Fox
CNN
MSNBC
Huffington Post

Anything else?

If you think CNN belongs on that list, I'm afraid we're not going to find much agreement.  CNN has been a respected news network for 30 years.  The Daily Caller was started by a conservative activist tv personality for the sole purpose of spreading misinformation.  These things are not the same, in any way shape or form.

CNN is a very left leaning news organization respected by the left.  It is respected by the left just as Fox is respected on the right.  Both are very biased and can not be used as a source of information.  If one gets all their news from CNN and like minded sources then ones views are very biased, limited and closed of from discussion.  Obviously closed minded very left leaning people will disagree with me.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Roland of Gilead on January 13, 2019, 04:43:29 PM
If you think CNN belongs on that list, I'm afraid we're not going to find much agreement.  CNN has been a respected news network for 30 years.  The Daily Caller was started by a conservative activist tv personality for the sole purpose of spreading misinformation.  These things are not the same, in any way shape or form.

Come on, CNN isn't perfect either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNN_controversies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNN_controversies)

I remember this one:

"In October 2016, WikiLeaks published emails from John Podesta which showed CNN contributor Donna Brazile passing the questions for a CNN-sponsored debate to the Clinton campaign.[11] In the email, Brazile discussed her concern about Clinton's ability to field a question regarding the death penalty. The following day Clinton would receive the question about the death penalty, verbatim, from an audience member at the CNN-hosted Town Hall event.[12] According to a CNNMoney investigation, debate moderator Roland Martin of TV One "did not deny sharing information with Brazile".[13] CNN severed ties with Brazile on October 14, 2016.[14][15]"
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: sol on January 13, 2019, 04:52:00 PM
Come on, CNN isn't perfect either.

I didn't say perfect.  I said it wasn't created solely for partisan purposes.  By a well known ideologue with a clearly articulated agenda of undermining open discourse and honest reporting of events, I might add.

I fear America is lost.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 04:55:48 PM
CNN is a very left leaning news organization respected by the left.  It is respected by the left just as Fox is respected on the right.  Both are very biased and can not be used as a source of information.  If one gets all their news from CNN and like minded sources then ones views are very biased, limited and closed of from discussion.  Obviously closed minded very left leaning people will disagree with me.

We should just all agree to not posting links from any of the far left and far right propaganda/fake news publications:  Lets make a list:
Daily Caller
Drudge report
Fox
CNN
MSNBC
Huffington Post

Anything else?

If you think CNN belongs on that list, I'm afraid we're not going to find much agreement.  CNN has been a respected news network for 30 years.  The Daily Caller was started by a conservative

CNN has as much fake news as Sol posts.  I mostly avoid it, but there's some extremely left bias on CNN spreading misinformation.  I saw Chris Cuomo on there a couple times lately and felt like punching that liberal in the face.  Too many Americans are getting brainwashed by that BS.  But Sol has to get his talking points somewhere.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 13, 2019, 04:59:29 PM
DreamFIRE, you should probably stop posting links from the daily caller.  You might as well post links to stormfront.org at this point, because nobody can possibly take you seriously if you're taking that stuff seriously.

I agree.  We should just all agree to not posting links from any of the far left and far right propaganda/fake news publications:  Lets make a list:
Daily Caller
Drudge report
Fox
CNN
MSNBC
Huffington Post

Anything else?

Someone already took a stab at this, and I think they did a pretty good job. The organizations in the red and orange rectangles are sources I generally take with a huge grain of salt regardless of what side of the spectrum they sit on.

(https://www.adfontesmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Media-Bias-Chart_4.0_8_28_2018-min.jpg)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 05:12:02 PM
Fox news has been shown to be the most balanced based on independent studies:

(http://i1.wp.com/shorensteincenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Figure-6-NEW-web.png?resize=700%2C440&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 13, 2019, 05:12:48 PM
Fox news has been shown to be the most balanced based on independent studies:

(http://i1.wp.com/shorensteincenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Figure-6-NEW-web.png?resize=700%2C440&ssl=1)
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Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 13, 2019, 05:15:14 PM
So...Fox News spends almost half of its time saying great things about the Republicans and the other half saying derogatory things about the Democrats, immigrants, Muslims, etc? Very balanced indeed!
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 05:16:35 PM
Fox news has been shown to be the most balanced based on independent studies:

(http://i1.wp.com/shorensteincenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Figure-6-NEW-web.png?resize=700%2C440&ssl=1)
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Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: Roland of Gilead on January 13, 2019, 05:23:23 PM
Saying Fox news is balanced reporting is hilarious.

I am rather glad I skew Libertarian.  I think you are all crazy.

"Libertarianism in the United States has been described as conservative on economic issues and liberal on personal freedom[28] (for common meanings of conservative and liberal in the United States) and it is also often associated with a foreign policy of non-interventionism."
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: shuffler on January 13, 2019, 05:31:34 PM
Fox news has been shown to be the most balanced based on independent studies:

(http://i1.wp.com/shorensteincenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Figure-6-NEW-web.png?resize=700%2C440&ssl=1)
SeattleCyclone posted a cited chart with a believable distribution.

You posted an unsourced chart that pertains to the "tone" of news reports.
You claimed that Fox News is the most "balanced", by which I believe you intend to imply it is the most "fair", but that's not at all what your unsourced chart shows.

You're not helping your own credibility.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: DreamFIRE on January 13, 2019, 05:35:20 PM
Fox news has been shown to be the most balanced based on independent studies:

(http://i1.wp.com/shorensteincenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Figure-6-NEW-web.png?resize=700%2C440&ssl=1)
You claimed that Fox News is the most "balanced"

Actually, I didn't claim that.  A Harvard Study showed that.  I don't really care about YOUR opinion or other leftists' opinions.  Feel free to consume your fake news from msNBC.
Title: Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
Post by: FrugalToque on January 13, 2019, 05:51:26 PM
This went way off topic and is no longer useful, as we're clearly trolling at this point.

Locking.