Author Topic: Fed employees - shutdown stories  (Read 26124 times)

accolay

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #350 on: January 11, 2019, 03:20:42 AM »
I don't have a personal story but surprise! No supervision brings out the best in humans:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-shutdown-national-parks-transform-into-wild-west-%e2%80%94-heavily-populated-and-barely-supervised/ar-BBRGXeI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/us/government-shutdown-national-parks-toilets-services/index.html

I wonder how many sites will be vandalized? I pick up enough trash when I visit The Parks already, I can't imagine how bad it's getting with nobody watching. No fucking honor. I wish the parks would all just close the gates.

So, the actual articles are indicating the opposite of what you say. Citizens are voluntarily taking out the trash and cleaning the bathrooms.

The only thread of shutdown is the inability of the volunteers to empty the pit toilets. That's not a behavior issue.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/joshua-tree-national-park-has-been-trashed-in-the-shutdown-now-visitors-are-cutting-down-trees/ar-BBS5jSo

I rest my case?

Quote
We had some pretty extensive four-wheel driving around the entire area to access probably our most significant tree in the park

People are shit.




nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #351 on: January 11, 2019, 06:21:05 AM »

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/joshua-tree-national-park-has-been-trashed-in-the-shutdown-now-visitors-are-cutting-down-trees/ar-BBS5jSo

I rest my case?

Quote
We had some pretty extensive four-wheel driving around the entire area to access probably our most significant tree in the park

People are shit.

I've lived near and have worked in several National Parks, and there's always some vocal individuals complaining about rules and regulations, saying how this is 'public land' yada yada yada.  It's never hard to find reasons why these limitations are in place.

SnackDog

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #352 on: January 11, 2019, 06:36:51 AM »
To visit?  Sure thing.

But citizenship confers certain rights and privileges that are not universally available to everyone else.  I don't think everyone should be granted automatic citizenship in any given country just by virtue of walking there.

But in between anyone being able to visit at will, and anyone being granted citizenship, is the case of people who want to come here temporarily to work.  If they are entering into a freely agreed upon contract of services for wages, I'm not sure the free market peeps think the government should be intervening to forbid it.  That's the real questions of "illegal" immigration, whether or not these people are allowed to come here and work or not.

I didn't mention citizenship but that works for me if they follow the same process any country, including the US, has today.   If someone desires citizenship and the benefits it carries, then bully for them for applying for it.

I'm more interested in freedom to travel, live and work.  If someone has a job for me in another country, I should be free to take it.  Millions of Mexicans come to the US to work, legally and illegally, in an enormous boost to our economy in many states, doing jobs that Americans simply will not do (except on prison work gangs).

Right now a tourist visa for a Mexican to enter the US is $131.  That is a week of average wages in Mexico.  A tourist visa for an American to visit Mexico is not required.  A week of average US wages would be about $1000.

GuitarStv

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #353 on: January 11, 2019, 07:35:49 AM »
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #354 on: January 11, 2019, 07:40:17 AM »
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Didn't Subway argue (and win?) that "foot-long" didn't imply a measurement; so they could sell 11-inch subs?

GuitarStv

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #355 on: January 11, 2019, 07:46:14 AM »
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Didn't Subway argue (and win?) that "foot-long" didn't imply a measurement; so they could sell 11-inch subs?

Again . . . getting less food from Subway may well be a blessing in disguise.  :P

jambongris

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #356 on: January 11, 2019, 07:58:45 AM »
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Up until relatively recently it was illegal to sell a pint of beer at a bar in British Columbia due to a quirk of provincial and federal laws:

http://barleymowat.com/2011/01/27/bc-can-now-serve-a-pint/

Since a pint is a legal unit of measure bars are required to serve you 568 ml of beer when you order a pint (within allowable tolerances). Every year or so I see another investigative article about bars that are selling beer in various sizes of glassware and just calling it a "pint" out of habit. Some of them get around the issue by just calling the drink size a sleeve or something similar since that's not a legal unit of measure.

If they aren't giving you your full pint when their menu claims that they serve pints, you can file a complaint here:

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/h_lm00007.html

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #357 on: January 11, 2019, 08:04:38 AM »
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

Didn't Subway argue (and win?) that "foot-long" didn't imply a measurement; so they could sell 11-inch subs?

Quote
With regards to the size of the bread and calling it a footlong, ‘SUBWAY FOOTLONG’ is a registered trademark as a descriptive name for the sub sold in Subway® Restaurants and not intended to be a measurement of length. The length of the bread baked in the restaurant cannot be assured each time as the proofing process may vary slightly each time in the restaurant.

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #358 on: January 11, 2019, 08:11:43 AM »
Getting back to something closer to the original topic of the thread (but feel free to continuing complaining about the poor quality of beer, and such small portions ):

The Miami airport has announced plans to shut down one of their terminals tomorrow so that they can consolidate their remaining TSA workers who haven't yet called in sick at fewer checkpoints.

Quote
Closing of the security checkpoint at Terminal G is set to begin at 1 p.m. Saturday, in what would be the 22nd day of a partial shutdown of the federal government. Federal screeners are calling in sick at double the normal rate for Miami, and TSA managers aren’t confident they will have enough workers to operate all 11 checkpoints at normal hours throughout the airport.

Source: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article224260800.html#storylink=cpy

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #359 on: January 11, 2019, 08:15:14 AM »
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now we’ve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

I laughed when I read this yesterday, but today when I was riding the bus to work, I overheard a hipster loudly complaining about the beer label situation, since it's evidently the part of the shutdown that most affects (and upsets) her.   The angst is real.

Hang on a minute.  Individual beer labels have to be approved by the Federal government?  Seriously?

Just for new labels, so the shutdown isn't affecting any older labels, but is, in essence, preventing new craft beers from being sold.  https://www.chicagotribune.com/dining/drink/beer/ct-food-beer-government-shutdown-20190107-story.html
Yes, but here in the UK we just have a set of rules on minimum information and nothing inappropriate, and everyone can just design their own labels in accordance with the rules with no approval needed.  Weirdly bureaucratic to have the feds have to approve each design.  Land of the free, huh?
Says the country which has strict rules on what kinds of glasses a bar can sell beer in...

Yes, but that's important.

Those laws were a reaction to free market abuses  . . .  bars were ripping people off by using slightly smaller 'pint' glasses that wouldn't hold a pint, or by purposely pouring too much head.

Not really a problem in the US though., as with the flavour of typical American beers, getting a little less not necessarily a negative.  :P

The only thing with less taste than mass-produced American beer is mass-produced Canadian beer.  Lebatt Blu anyone? Probably why, when given the choice, Canadians still pick Bud over Lebatt's or Molson.

SnackDog

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #360 on: January 11, 2019, 08:15:38 AM »
The MyTSA app can help track delays so travelers can arrive in time to clear security and avoid issues.

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #361 on: January 11, 2019, 08:24:49 AM »
The MyTSA app can help track delays so travelers can arrive in time to clear security and avoid issues.
Curious - who is updating the app? 
To me delays of a couple hours to get through security are first-world problems - try getting anywhere by any transit system in a lot of countries and you'll understand what true gridlock is.  The bigger potential problem to me is if cargo starts getting disrupted. Everything from express packages to medicine gets shipped via our airports. Part of the reason why Reagan was able to use EO to keep the airports running during the ATC strike.

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #362 on: January 11, 2019, 08:58:25 AM »
The MyTSA app can help track delays so travelers can arrive in time to clear security and avoid issues.
Curious - who is updating the app? 
To me delays of a couple hours to get through security are first-world problems - try getting anywhere by any transit system in a lot of countries and you'll understand what true gridlock is.  The bigger potential problem to me is if cargo starts getting disrupted. Everything from express packages to medicine gets shipped via our airports. Part of the reason why Reagan was able to use EO to keep the airports running during the ATC strike.

Long delays are what happens when there isn't enough burst capacity to keep up with spikes in travel throughout the day. Once capacity gets down below the average number of people entering in an airport per 24 hours, you no longer have long waits but fewer and fewer people moving around the country.

Same thing with closing down terminals. There's a fixed number of flights that can be managed per gate. At the busiest airports in the world (think heathrow), the runways are the current bottleneck on the number of flights per day, but in many midsized cities fewer open gates means fewer flights.

Keep in mind that while the majority of americans fly less than once a year, about 6% fly 9+ times per year,* and these are disproportionately the people with the money and political/business connections to actually communicate their displeasure to political leaders in ways that are likely to be harder to ignore than many of the people who are harmed in much more substantial ways by the shutdown.

*Source: http://airlines.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016Survey.pdf (sorry about the PDF)

BicycleB

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #363 on: January 11, 2019, 10:43:22 AM »
I may be wrong about immigration, but it seems to me that restricting immigration is an economic mistake. Free trade is profitable. Labor is the biggest element of trade, but we restrict it. The global economy everywhere would benefit if labor were as free to move as capital.

Sorry to distract from the beer. If I still drank, I'd hoist a toast to the workers. Instead, I called my Senators and asked them to quit protecting the President show leadership by finding a way to break this impasse.

FenderBender

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #364 on: January 11, 2019, 11:18:39 AM »
I may be wrong about immigration, but it seems to me that restricting immigration is an economic mistake. Free trade is profitable. Labor is the biggest element of trade, but we restrict it. The global economy everywhere would benefit if labor were as free to move as capital.

In AI article post by left leaning Brookings Institute:
"While some dispute the dire predictions on grounds new positions will be created to offset the job losses, the fact that all these major studies report significant workforce disruptions should be taken seriously."


"all these major studies" indicate the need for labor is on the decline.  pay attention to the labor participation rate, many don't work since the welfare state pays same as a job since low skilled labor is arriving in the US daily so keeping wages low at the bottom.  basic law of supply/demand is at work here and if supply is left to grow, trouble is coming.

if dems and repub establishment don't begin to favor the population over supplying cheap labor to corporations soon, we'll not only get a reelected DJT, but we'll get another populist from one side or the other after him.  populism in a democracy is the result of politicians failing the people - the people will vote in dumb asses at all levels just to get the attention they so right deserve. 


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2018/04/18/will-robots-and-ai-take-your-job-the-economic-and-political-consequences-of-automation/



PhilB

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #365 on: January 11, 2019, 11:19:03 AM »
I may be wrong about immigration, but it seems to me that restricting immigration is an economic mistake. Free trade is profitable. Labor is the biggest element of trade, but we restrict it. The global economy everywhere would benefit if labor were as free to move as capital.

Sorry to distract from the beer. If I still drank, I'd hoist a toast to the workers. Instead, I called my Senators and asked them to quit protecting the President show leadership by finding a way to break this impasse.
It would be great if we all worked towards a world where we could have free movement, but that requires / creates the elimination of the current gross disparities of wealth between countries.  If you just opened all borders that would happen by the instant dragging down of wealthy countries who wouldn't be able to cope with the influx of tens of millions from poor countries.  A more practical goal is to encourage development to bring poorer countries up to the same level of wealth as the rich ones - at which point you can safely open borders as there is no longer the impetus for mass unidirectional migration.  In days gone by physical distance was enough of a barrier to migration that legal barriers weren't really needed.  Now the subset of people who are poor enough to want to come to a rich country, but rich enough to afford a plane ticket is bigger than any rich country fully opening its borders could cope with.

Cassie

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #366 on: January 11, 2019, 11:20:37 AM »
I don’t know one person that is for open borders.  However, what Trump is doing to the immigrants now is beyond belief. No empathy whatsoever.

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #367 on: January 11, 2019, 11:31:14 AM »
WRT the free flow of labor, it is tied up quite tightly with free trade. Right now we have free trade but very limited (relative to our size) legal immigration. The result is distortions in the labor market. Jobs that can be moved out of the country and had the products brought back in are exposed to one economic regime (auto workers, steel workers, some kinds of computer programmers). Jobs that cannot be done remotely and where the product cannot be shipped are exposed to a very different one (plumbers, teachers, MDs, and other healthcare workers).

This shows up in the consumer price indices. The price of everything you buy at a store has dropped dramatically in price, increased dramatically in quality, or both over the past 50 years. The price of anything service based has stayed the same or climbed in the same time period.

You could make a logical case we should protect both steel workers and plumbers from competing on international labor markets* or neither. The same goes for (some kinds) of computers programmers and healthcare workers.

Anyway, it's just fun to play devil's advocate sometimes.

*At substantial expense to the overall economic wellbeing of the country in either case, but sometimes it's worth everyone sacrificing a little to protect a few people from sacrificing a lot. Other times there are cheaper and more effective ways to protect some people without hurting a lot of people.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #368 on: January 11, 2019, 11:55:04 AM »
I don’t know one person that is for open borders.  However, what Trump is doing to the immigrants now is beyond belief. No empathy whatsoever.

what is he doing to the immigrants?

Cassie

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #369 on: January 11, 2019, 12:00:46 PM »
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #370 on: January 11, 2019, 12:04:10 PM »
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #371 on: January 11, 2019, 12:23:27 PM »
Just going to ignore that last statement. I do have to say the people on here who are arguing for a wall. First of all, no one is for open borders. 2nd of all, whether you are republican or democrat, as it exists now cheap, below minimum wage labor in the form of immigrants, picks our produce, plants our plants, work in factories, is used for domestic and maid service. The republicans who on one side of their mouth spouting anti-immigrant rhetoric, including taking American jobs, increasing crime, are on the other side HIRING these people to do these jobs. They KNOW they are immigrants. They know that if they truly wanted to stop illegal immigration, the way to do that is to have more strict enforcement of labor laws. What should we do about immigration? Increase the staffing for processing immigrants as well as for tracking throughout the system. Increase the number of work visas, for both skilled and unskilled workers. Have a legal realistic way that legal immigrants can become citizens, including dreamers, so they are motivated to work within the system and be good citizens. Employment is tracked, taxes are paid, and these companies ARE getting labor, except labor at the minimum legal wage. This helps American workers because it puts a floor on wages versus paying people "under the table". It protects immigrants because they have worker protections. It protects Americans because we can keep the immigrants we want, and process out the ones we don't. The only people it doesn't help are businesses who want to pay immigrants less than minimum wage and have no worker protections.
The things I am suggesting would cost less than a physical wall which is ineffective for the vast majority of how immigrants get into this country. According to experts a wall would do little to nothing about drug smuggling either.
There ARE small areas in urban areas where local law enforcement is asking for physical barriers to be beefed up and yes fund that. However for vast areas of desert, areas cutting through people's private property and reserves, no one in those areas is asking or WANTS a physical barrier, including law enforcement. "Build a wall" is a HUGE (metaphorically and physically) distraction to what the real world issues and solutions to immigration are.   
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 12:25:03 PM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #372 on: January 11, 2019, 12:26:37 PM »
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #373 on: January 11, 2019, 12:28:23 PM »
what is he doing to the immigrants?

Oh, I'll play.  Let's start with family separation and locking children in metal cages.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #374 on: January 11, 2019, 12:32:52 PM »
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

Trump is publicly saying that he is FOR legal immigration, if people "go through the system". However in every area he touches, he is trying to reduce legal immigration options, including for people with green cards to be able serve in the military, both skilled and unskilled labor and even student visas. We are a connected global country and these restrictions are creating chaos and reducing our resources as a country. Since these things make no rational sense, violate US and International laws, and actually cost the US money in terms of labor and skills, my only explanation; he is a bigot.  He's even created a "denaturalization task force", which means exactly what it sounds like; creating a way to strip citizenship from naturalized citizens. All US citizens have certain unalienable rights. What he is trying to do is against the US constitution and Bill of Rights.

https://www.afsc.org/blogs/news-and-commentary/trumps-attacks-legal-immigration-system-explained
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 12:45:24 PM by partgypsy »

FenderBender

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #375 on: January 11, 2019, 12:41:43 PM »
what is he doing to the immigrants?

Oh, I'll play.  Let's start with family separation and locking children in metal cages.

The pictures posted of this was during Obama's term, where was your outrage then?

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #376 on: January 11, 2019, 12:47:21 PM »
The pictures posted of this was during Obama's term, where was your outrage then?

You've only seen pictures of children in cages that were taken under Obama?  I know of one specific example of such a photo, and hundreds more taken over the last two years when Trump dramatically expanded the process and then publicly declared that we should be using the practice and the threat of family separation as a deterrent.  Though you do have a point, because Obama was an immigration hardliner too despite people like DreamFIRE claiming that all democrats want open borders.

Are you seriously suggesting that Donald Trump has improved the lives of immigrants?  That kind of blows me away.

FenderBender

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #377 on: January 11, 2019, 01:11:37 PM »
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

that's all you got?  things that have been happening for decades under other presidents and never reported?  look deeper and you'll find things that happened under Obama/bush/clinton that easily could have been written up as an outrageous/crisis/human rights violation ..... the press at any given time can make anything they choose an outrage/crisis.   right now, today, hundreds of thousand of horrible things are happening that are ignored but for any one of them, the media could turn it into a crisis if they want policy to stay the same or to change a policy. 

one murder can be made into a crisis where hundreds are happening elsewhere.   

the cages and the separation was happening long before DJT - how could you not know this.

man, i'd really like to battle this out, but my time is worth more than sitting in front of this computer.   honestly, that's my feeling as i sit here, i'm feeling guilt sitting here wasting time, while at the same time i'd love to battle it out or "PLAY" as SOL suggests.    do you guys post from work or home?  i'm amazed how much time is devoted to this typing.  if from work, shame on you.  if from home, might want set some limits but if you are limited, the alternative to sitting in front of the computer might cause you to spend money doing fun things so i understand the dilemma. 

 



Cassie

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #378 on: January 11, 2019, 01:17:44 PM »
Sol and Gypsy his last response is why I didn’t bother to answer. Some people have closed minds.

partgypsy

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #379 on: January 11, 2019, 01:21:36 PM »
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

that's all you got?  things that have been happening for decades under other presidents and never reported?  look deeper and you'll find things that happened under Obama/bush/clinton that easily could have been written up as an outrageous/crisis/human rights violation ..... the press at any given time can make anything they choose an outrage/crisis.   right now, today, hundreds of thousand of horrible things are happening that are ignored but for any one of them, the media could turn it into a crisis if they want policy to stay the same or to change a policy. 

one murder can be made into a crisis where hundreds are happening elsewhere.   

the cages and the separation was happening long before DJT - how could you not know this.

man, i'd really like to battle this out, but my time is worth more than sitting in front of this computer.   honestly, that's my feeling as i sit here, i'm feeling guilt sitting here wasting time, while at the same time i'd love to battle it out or "PLAY" as SOL suggests.    do you guys post from work or home?  i'm amazed how much time is devoted to this typing.  if from work, shame on you.  if from home, might want set some limits but if you are limited, the alternative to sitting in front of the computer might cause you to spend money doing fun things so i understand the dilemma. 

 
Sol's main point what is NEW with Trump and not true for previous presidents, is that he made the act of stepping over the border an automatic felony, so that all parents are separated from their children. This was not done before. Since this was a CHANGE in our policy many immigrants did not know this was going to happen, were genuinely terrified as were their children. Tragic and completely avoidable. This change was implemented without having the manpower and infrastructure to deal with this in any humane or ethical fashion.

You also did not say anything about the extensive evidence that Trump is trying to circumvent legal immigration, even if he himself says that immigrants going through legal routes was the solution to illegal immigration. 
 

Cool Friend

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #380 on: January 11, 2019, 01:34:52 PM »
Ah yes, the ol' "there have been and will continue to be other tragedies too, so who cares about any individual one" rejoinder.   Complete with the "this discussion I started is a waste of my time" exit.

Timeless.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #381 on: January 11, 2019, 01:39:59 PM »
So how are ordinary people actually doing over there? You know, instead of arguing about the whys of the situation? There doesn't seem to be rioting in the streets or anything.....

Omy

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #382 on: January 11, 2019, 01:49:25 PM »
My understanding is that federal employees are not supposed to behave politically, so they can't picket and riot and expect to have jobs to come back to.

GuitarStv

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #383 on: January 11, 2019, 01:54:57 PM »
FB, if you really don’t know you are living in a cave.  I doubt this is the case.

if you can't provide of list then i have to assume he has none nothing to the immigrants.  i would have thought you'd have had a long list of things he's done to make such a statement.

To pick just a single example of many . . .

Donald Trump changed government policy and started to separate children from their families without any plan to ever reunite them (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/family-separations-reunification-never-plan-court/index.html).  He did as a negotiating tool (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-cites-as-a-negotiating-tool-his-policy-of-separating-immigrant-children-from-their-parents/2018/06/15/ade82b80-70b3-11e8-bf86-a2351b5ece99_story.html?noredirect=on).  His actions were responsible for at least one child's death due to neglect (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/14/migrant-child-death-guatemalan-girl-minor-trump-administration-immigration-border-patrol/2309596002/) and are almost guarenteed to cause serious psychological harm to the children (https://sites.google.com/view/letter-to-secretary-nielsen/home?authuser=0).

How exactly did you manage to avoid hearing about this FenderBender?

that's all you got? things that have been happening for decades under other presidents and never reported?  look deeper and you'll find things that happened under Obama/bush/clinton that easily could have been written up as an outrageous/crisis/human rights violation ..... the press at any given time can make anything they choose an outrage/crisis.   right now, today, hundreds of thousand of horrible things are happening that are ignored but for any one of them, the media could turn it into a crisis if they want policy to stay the same or to change a policy. 

one murder can be made into a crisis where hundreds are happening elsewhere.   

the cages and the separation was happening long before DJT - how could you not know this.

man, i'd really like to battle this out, but my time is worth more than sitting in front of this computer.   honestly, that's my feeling as i sit here, i'm feeling guilt sitting here wasting time, while at the same time i'd love to battle it out or "PLAY" as SOL suggests.    do you guys post from work or home?  i'm amazed how much time is devoted to this typing.  if from work, shame on you.  if from home, might want set some limits but if you are limited, the alternative to sitting in front of the computer might cause you to spend money doing fun things so i understand the dilemma. 


You demanded information.

It was provided.

You have obviously not read the it because there the information directly contradicts your response.

Now you're demanding more information and simultaneously indicating that you don't have time to discuss the topic.


I have to ask, what exactly is your goal in this conversation?

Apples

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #384 on: January 11, 2019, 01:55:50 PM »
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour. for 45-50 hour weeks  While they are here, their housing and transportation are provided for.  Yes, it's difficult to raise a family on those wages, but it's not minimum wage.  While picking fruit, and earning piece rate wages, they earn an average of $9-$20 an hour (the fittest make the most money).  We can. not. hire American citizens to do this work.  We've had people show up and leave in the middle of the afternoon because they think it's too hard.  It is hard.  There's no way around it.  You have to be in shape to do this kind of work.  Our wages are competitive for our area - no one is paying much less, because the employee information chain is solid, so they know exactly  how much people are making other places and are willing to leave for better conditions.  Sometimes those better conditions are that a crew leader will let them drink some beer on the job. *eye roll*

In 2018, we got H-2A workers (visa for temporary non-immigrant worker, our guys came from Mexico).  The U.S. government sets a wage rate* based on overall wages in the industry for that kind of work.  This applies to H-2A workers and any other workers doing the same job (so our entire seasonal crew).  The wage rate was...drumroll...$12.05.   While in theory, yes if we paid $50/hour there would be plenty of American citizens willing to do the work, on the other hand this is a job that takes skill but none you need an education or more than on-the-job training for.

In other news, I have a friend who works for the Dept. of the Interior who goes out and does those periodic weather and conditions measurements for streams around our state, and he hasn't worked in weeks.  So that data for those weeks will never have been gathered, and they are now very behind on some water quality tests.

*based on flawed survey data and analysis, but no need to go into that

the_fixer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #385 on: January 11, 2019, 01:56:23 PM »
So how are ordinary people actually doing over there? You know, instead of arguing about the whys of the situation? There doesn't seem to be rioting in the streets or anything.....
I remember being in France during a strike and I can tell you us Americans are a boring lot of people comparatively.

We trudge along and make due with a few people here and there holding signs and chanting while the politicians throw themselves on the floor kicking and screaming like little children and the media drool's at the ratings that they are getting from broadcasting the temper tantrums.

If this were France the country would be burnt to the ground by now... They know how to throwdown when they are not happy.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #386 on: January 11, 2019, 02:12:45 PM »
In 2018, we got H-2A workers (visa for temporary non-immigrant worker, our guys came from Mexico). 

Are you saying that you support expanding visas for temporary foreign labor, or oppose it?  Because in my mind, if you can't hire Americans to do this hard work for $12/hour, then you're probably not happy about Trump reducing the supply of people who have proper paperwork to pick fruit AND the supply of people who don't have the proper paperwork to pick fruit.

My understanding is that federal employees are not supposed to behave politically, so they can't picket and riot and expect to have jobs to come back to.

Federal employees are still US citizens and they can behave politically just like any other citizen can.  They're just not supposed to do so while at work, or when not at work in any way that suggests they are representing the US government in an official capacity.  I could still picket in front of the white house, I just could't hold a sign with my agency's initials on it while doing so.

And to be fair, the rules designed to separate official business and personal business have been WILDLY flaunted by the Trump administration.  Every time an administration official uses their official twitter account to tweet #MAGA they are in egregious violation of the Hatch Act.  There are similar rules against using your official position for personal gain, and those have also been flaunted routinely.  I'm not sure why any federal employee would feel the least bit bound by the Hatch Act restrictions at this point, given the example set by Trump, his family, his cabinet, and his senior aides.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #387 on: January 11, 2019, 02:13:16 PM »
Though you do have a point, because Obama was an immigration hardliner too despite people like DreamFIRE claiming that all democrats want open borders.
I never posted stating that ALL democRats want open borders, although many do.  Are you trying to use your twisted logic to imply I'm suggesting ALL of them have that viewpoint?  It sure looks like that's what you're doing again, but you would be incorrect.  I never claimed such a thing.

Obama a hardliner?  Now, that's funny.  But at least he supported a physical barrier at the border, just like many other democrats, including Chuck and Nancy, until Trump became president.

Trump isn't wanting only a wall - that's just one piece of the border security puzzle.  I stated that multiple times earlier in the thread, and Trump even mentioned that in his speech.  But I continue to see comments from people that the wall isn't going to solve everything by itself.  Duh!  Building a wall doesn't mean all of the other enforcement/security methods come to an end.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 02:20:15 PM by DreamFIRE »

DreamFIRE

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #388 on: January 11, 2019, 02:21:59 PM »
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour.

While costing U.S. tax payers far more than that.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

DreamFIRE

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #389 on: January 11, 2019, 02:29:24 PM »
Absolutely.  There are privileges to being a citizen of a country and there needs to be repercussion to being here illegally.  Personally I think we give out too many handouts to those here without permission.  We need to make it less desirable to being here illegally then no one will come here without permission.  Follow that up by making all drugs legal and viola, we have practically solved immigration and border security.

Yeah, it costs a fortune to support these people as shown by previous studies.  Agreed, it needs to be very undesirable to be here illegally, especially when it's literal shit where many of these people are coming from.

partgypsy

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #390 on: January 11, 2019, 02:30:01 PM »
Can anyone tell me what "open borders" means? I keep hearing that's what Democrats want (ok not all, but most), and it's something bad, but not what is meant by that term. Anyone?


"Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems? Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they’re working and earning here, they’d pay taxes here. And when they want to go back, they can go back. They can cross. Open the borders both ways." Ronald Reagan, 1980


Saying that illegal immigration "costs a fortune" is not true. There may be a net overall cost, or there may actually be a net benefit for illegal immigrations. It is actually pretty difficult to get a "single number" on costs versus benefits because it depends on what you include, what externalities, and projections you are including.

Overall the consensus is that illegal immigration benefits the US by doing work that US citizens would not do for that wage, they pay into taxes and even social security yet cannot collect taxes or benefits, and spend virtually 100% of their income, thus helping the economy. However they put a strain on local city, state and hospital budgets particularly in the southwest, because they are required by law to provide certain services, education to minors and emergency medical services, but are not reimbursed by the national government for those costs. Local, state governments, do not have the flexibility to go beyond fixed budgets. Hospitals are not reimbursed by either the immigrant OR the government which mandates emergency care, so the hospital has to eat the costs and otherwise pass on those costs to other paying consumers.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 02:45:51 PM by partgypsy »

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #391 on: January 11, 2019, 02:59:54 PM »
Though you do have a point, because Obama was an immigration hardliner too despite people like DreamFIRE claiming that all democrats want open borders.
I never posted stating that ALL democRats want open borders, although many do. 
unless you are using the adjective to mean "at best 2%" you are again mischaracterizing the debate, and it seems intentionally so.  To my knowledge there is not a single Democratic member of the senate or the house that has publicly supported open borders. It's not the position of any Democratic state Governor that I am aware of, either.

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #392 on: January 11, 2019, 03:08:29 PM »
Hello there, chiming in as one of those farmers many of you seem to know so much about.

Before getting in H-2A visa workers, our seasonal crew (12-20 weeks of work) make...in 2017...drumroll...$12/hour.

While costing U.S. tax payers far more than that.

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

You are aware you answered a post about legal and temporary immigration with a link to a study about ILLEGAL immigration?

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #393 on: January 11, 2019, 03:21:57 PM »
My understanding is that federal employees are not supposed to behave politically, so they can't picket and riot and expect to have jobs to come back to.

I just got a department wide e-mail titled "Ethics Guidance during Lapse in Appropriations."

It reminded us that all outside (non governmental work) needs to be per-approved and kind of hinted taking things such as a free lunch for a federal worker might be considered accepting or soliciting gifts due to your official position or benefiting from an outside source because of your position.

Boofinator

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #394 on: January 11, 2019, 03:36:26 PM »
I'm not sure why any federal employee would feel the least bit bound by the Hatch Act restrictions at this point, given the example set by Trump, his family, his cabinet, and his senior aides.

The president and vice president are exempt. Not sure the circumstances surrounding the partisan messages sent by the other civilian employees you note, but as you mentioned there are no restrictions outside duty hours.

But yeah, it would be a dark day if there were repercussions to the civilian employees peaceably assembling while furloughed.

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #395 on: January 11, 2019, 03:52:54 PM »
But yeah, it would be a dark day if there were repercussions to the civilian employees peaceably assembling while furloughed.

I was still an active federal employee during the last big shutdown in 2013, and I hosted a shutdown party at my house for my coworkers.  There was beer, and much bitching and moaning, and it was generally a good time.

This time around I'm retired, so I drink beer and bitch and moan whenever I want to.

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nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #397 on: January 11, 2019, 05:16:30 PM »

This time around I'm retired, so I drink beer and bitch and moan whenever I want to.

ah... Sol's achieved the American dream!

Omy

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #398 on: January 11, 2019, 05:30:44 PM »


And to be fair, the rules designed to separate official business and personal business have been WILDLY flaunted by the Trump administration.  Every time an administration official uses their official twitter account to tweet #MAGA they are in egregious violation of the Hatch Act.  There are similar rules against using your official position for personal gain, and those have also been flaunted routinely.  I'm not sure why any federal employee would feel the least bit bound by the Hatch Act restrictions at this point, given the example set by Trump, his family, his cabinet, and his senior aides.

The furloughed employees I know are a practical bunch and reference the Hatch Act when I ask them why they aren't making noise. So they may not feel it's worth testing the limits (even though the Trump Klan ignores the rules daily.) The average worker seems to actually suffer the consequences of their actions - and acts accordingly.

Slow2FIRE

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #399 on: January 11, 2019, 08:04:25 PM »
Washington Post reports that the Senate and House have approved a bill for furloughed Feds to receive back pay.  McConnell was quoted as saying that Trump told him he would sign the bill.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/11/congress-approves-back-pay-eventually-for-furloughed-federal-employees/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ddf935baba1f

In other news, Republicans are passing around a bill (again) that would end future govt shutdowns.  Something along the lines of an automatic continuing resolution with govt funding decreasing by 1% every 90 days while the auto-continuing resolution is in force due to a budget bill not being passed.  I don't know if the Republican senators have bipartisan support or widespread support in their own party for this bill.

https://www.risch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2019/1/as-shutdown-continues-risch-senate-colleagues-introduce-bill-to-permanently-end-government-shutdowns