Author Topic: Fed employees - shutdown stories  (Read 26121 times)

Sailor Sam

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #250 on: January 09, 2019, 04:01:36 PM »
People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

I hadn't realized there were people who were both not getting paid AND legally barred from quitting and finding another job instead. This needs to be publicized more. I think it would hit an awful lot of people in a way the existing human interest reporting hasn't managed to.

I know it do to me.

Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.

The Senate has passed a bill that would allow the USCG to be paid through the treasury dept, but the House hasn't pass, or even introduced a counterpart. There's no mirror bill that will allow NOAA Corps officers to be paid, mostly because even the gov't doesn't know who the fuck they are. So that little bit of the long blue line is even further up shit creek.

Thanks for the support. If anyone feels like calling their congressional representative, particularly the house, on our behalf that would be a kindness. Because (you guessed it) it's also illegal for us to lobby on our own behalf.

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #251 on: January 09, 2019, 04:03:32 PM »
This CNN article about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 04:05:33 PM by sol »

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #252 on: January 09, 2019, 04:14:36 PM »
Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.

The Senate has passed a bill that would allow the USCG to be paid through the treasury dept, but the House hasn't pass, or even introduced a counterpart. There's no mirror bill that will allow NOAA Corps officers to be paid, mostly because even the gov't doesn't know who the fuck they are. So that little bit of the long blue line is even further up shit creek.

Thanks for the support. If anyone feels like calling their congressional representative, particularly the house, on our behalf that would be a kindness. Because (you guessed it) it's also illegal for us to lobby on our own behalf.

Given how much I depend on federal funding, I try to be careful about what political positions I'm officially on the record about supporting/opposing, but this is one I'm happy to (and an issue it's hard to see absolutely anyone being on the other side of if they were actually paying attention).

Calling one rep and two senators offices tonight when I get back to a personal phone.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #253 on: January 09, 2019, 04:17:32 PM »

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely. 

OtherJen

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #254 on: January 09, 2019, 04:23:37 PM »

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

Sarcasm, I expect. Someone who still supports Trump likely thinks that all science is either an evil liberal scheme or a pack of lies to get money.

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #255 on: January 09, 2019, 04:28:17 PM »

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely.
ok - sorry.  Yes, I missed it.
But you did bring up an important point, which is that a disturbingly large swath of the public i) doesn't know all the various jobs that government workers (including scientists) actually do and ii) is skeptical of both the value of that work and the results from it.
I put a big chunk of the blame on the decades-long campaign to discredit climate change but in general many scientists are spectacularly bad at explaining what they do to the average layperson. In many government positions that is compounded by regulations that prevent and hamper these same employees from discussing their work without vetting and authorization.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #256 on: January 09, 2019, 04:34:25 PM »

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.

I think you missed my point (and my sarcasm) entirely.
ok - sorry.  Yes, I missed it.
But you did bring up an important point, which is that a disturbingly large swath of the public i) doesn't know all the various jobs that government workers (including scientists) actually do and ii) is skeptical of both the value of that work and the results from it.
I put a big chunk of the blame on the decades-long campaign to discredit climate change but in general many scientists are spectacularly bad at explaining what they do to the average layperson. In many government positions that is compounded by regulations that prevent and hamper these same employees from discussing their work without vetting and authorization.

I agree with you 100%.  It is sickening how solid scientific work is easily dismissed by politicians becacuse of what they and their followers "believe". 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #257 on: January 09, 2019, 04:46:55 PM »
Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.
I'm confused. It's been 10 days since the last paycheck and you already have subordinates crying? Are you paid weekly, or is this preemptive despair?

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #258 on: January 09, 2019, 04:56:32 PM »
Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.
I'm confused. It's been 10 days since the last paycheck and you already have subordinates crying? Are you paid weekly, or is this preemptive despair?
They've already missed the chance to get payroll through in time to get their paycheck.
Wouldn't you be pissed off if you were required to work but knew that - at best - your pay would be delayed by at least a few weeks, and no one could give you an answer about when that would be?
During all previous shutdowns congress has authorized back-pay, but there's no certainty of that, and it will take a while.

Active duty tends to skew heavily towards the younger people - there's a lot of early 20-somethings with zero (or negative) net worth and young children to care for. A constant paycheck is supposed to be one of the few perks of putting your life and liberty on the line.  Now they don't even get that.

BuildingFrugalHabits

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #259 on: January 09, 2019, 05:14:07 PM »
I'm sorry for all of those affected directly or indirectly by the shutdown.  The stories of destruction in our National Parks and disruption of scientific studies are particularly troubling.  I haven't seen any information in this thread or elsewhere that has convinced me that a wall is necessary or even desirable, let alone something I'd be willing to fund as a taxpayer.  I'm far more concerned about climate change and the impending destruction that is sure to bring.  Seems like the shutdown has also redirected the focus and national attention away from other more pressing issues. 

nessness

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #260 on: January 09, 2019, 05:18:57 PM »
I was a furloughed "non-essential" federal scientist in the 2013 shutdown, and was working on infrastructure safety evaluations. The constant cries from the public of "if these employees are non-essential, why do they even have jobs?" drove me crazy. Um, because if you stop infrastructure safety evaluations for a few weeks, all you're going to do is get behind schedule, but if you stop them permanently, eventually you're going to have lost lives and disastrous economic consequences.

My agency is thankfully funded this time around, but all our partner agencies are unfunded so we've been experiencing project delays left and right. And I'm pretty sure the people processing our payroll aren't getting paid themselves, which must feel particularly crappy.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #261 on: January 09, 2019, 05:43:55 PM »
This is all just so astounding from an outside perspective. It's just wrong on so many levels.  It's news worldwide, with most people finding Trump's behaviour just unbelievable. At what point do you decide to get a new president?

BNgarden

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #262 on: January 09, 2019, 06:01:23 PM »
The stunning lack of compassion and appreciation of how hard this is on furloughed staff people (and their families as well as clients / customers) is just mind-boggling:
https://twitter.com/DanLamothe/status/1083100523925065728

ETA: Hoping the shut-down is resolved quickly and elegantly.

(Also edited for brevity.)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 06:55:29 PM by BNgarden »

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #263 on: January 09, 2019, 06:13:33 PM »
This is all just so astounding from an outside perspective. It's just wrong on so many levels.  It's news worldwide, with most people finding Trump's behaviour just unbelievable. At what point do you decide to get a new president?

November 2020*.  Unlike many parliamentary systems our elections dates are fixed.
There's a possibility that a president could be removed from office following impeachment, but it's such an intentionally high bar that it would be difficult, at best, and the presidency would remain with the GOP as the VP (Pence) would become president.


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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #264 on: January 09, 2019, 06:28:06 PM »
People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

I hadn't realized there were people who were both not getting paid AND legally barred from quitting and finding another job instead. This needs to be publicized more. I think it would hit an awful lot of people in a way the existing human interest reporting hasn't managed to.

I know it do to me.

Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.

The Senate has passed a bill that would allow the USCG to be paid through the treasury dept, but the House hasn't pass, or even introduced a counterpart. There's no mirror bill that will allow NOAA Corps officers to be paid, mostly because even the gov't doesn't know who the fuck they are. So that little bit of the long blue line is even further up shit creek.

Thanks for the support. If anyone feels like calling their congressional representative, particularly the house, on our behalf that would be a kindness. Because (you guessed it) it's also illegal for us to lobby on our own behalf.

I'm this minus the being in the Coast Guard so the Senate doesn't care.  Also I can quit.  That was an interesting conversation with my boss today when I mentioned I would if the shutdown last "months or even years" I would quit at some point.  I'm marginally FI (he doesn't know that part) so I have to ask myself why am I here doing this if it lasts Months.

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #265 on: January 09, 2019, 06:40:12 PM »

I'm this minus the being in the Coast Guard so the Senate doesn't care.  Also I can quit.  That was an interesting conversation with my boss today when I mentioned I would if the shutdown last "months or even years" I would quit at some point.  I'm marginally FI (he doesn't know that part) so I have to ask myself why am I here doing this if it lasts Months.

Serious question - if the shutdown does last months would you stick it out just long enough to qualify for backpay (assuming they backpay employees as htey have in the past... no certainty with this adminstration). Would you get back-pay if you quit mid shutdown?  How would they know if you just quit today but told them you quit the first day back to work?

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #266 on: January 09, 2019, 06:49:33 PM »

I'm this minus the being in the Coast Guard so the Senate doesn't care.  Also I can quit.  That was an interesting conversation with my boss today when I mentioned I would if the shutdown last "months or even years" I would quit at some point.  I'm marginally FI (he doesn't know that part) so I have to ask myself why am I here doing this if it lasts Months.

Serious question - if the shutdown does last months would you stick it out just long enough to qualify for backpay (assuming they backpay employees as htey have in the past... no certainty with this adminstration). Would you get back-pay if you quit mid shutdown?  How would they know if you just quit today but told them you quit the first day back to work?

I am essential so at a minimum I would be paid for the days I have worked so far.  If I quit, I would officially resign with my supervisor.  (We have had several resignations not related to the shutdown since the 22nd).  Because I am close to FI, the shutdown could push me over the edge to pull the trigger even though I'm still a couple of years away from a FIRE where I would be completely comfortable.

lhamo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #267 on: January 09, 2019, 07:29:02 PM »
What percentage of overall GDP is USG spending?  Could this tantrum of Trump's throw us into the next recession?  I can see consumer spending tanking rapidly as family and friends of unpaid USG workers and contractors start reducing their own spending so that they can loan money to those not getting paychecks. 

spartana

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #268 on: January 09, 2019, 07:31:19 PM »
People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

I hadn't realized there were people who were both not getting paid AND legally barred from quitting and finding another job instead. This needs to be publicized more. I think it would hit an awful lot of people in a way the existing human interest reporting hasn't managed to.

I know it do to me.

Yup, 42,000 active duty Coast Guard, and 300 NOAA Corps officers are all in the suck hole. We all got our 31-Dec paychecks, and that was it until the shutdown ends. We are not eligible for unemployment, nor are we allowed to hold other jobs (even if they are part time) without approval from an Admiral, nor are we allowed to simply quit. Walking away is being AWOL, and would get us thrown in jail.

The Senate has passed a bill that would allow the USCG to be paid through the treasury dept, but the House hasn't pass, or even introduced a counterpart. There's no mirror bill that will allow NOAA Corps officers to be paid, mostly because even the gov't doesn't know who the fuck they are. So that little bit of the long blue line is even further up shit creek.

Thanks for the support. If anyone feels like calling their congressional representative, particularly the house, on our behalf that would be a kindness. Because (you guessed it) it's also illegal for us to lobby on our own behalf.

I'm this minus the being in the Coast Guard so the Senate doesn't care.  Also I can quit.  That was an interesting conversation with my boss today when I mentioned I would if the shutdown last "months or even years" I would quit at some point.  I'm marginally FI (he doesn't know that part) so I have to ask myself why am I here doing this if it lasts Months.
  While the shutdown sucks for both essential and non-essential employees (and I personally think essential employees who continued to work full time should get double back pay if non-essential employees get back pay), the ability to quit is huge. The CG is a military service subject to military justice laws and knowing you could be jailed if you left during an extended shutdown without pay and had no choice but to work or suffer an AWOL charge is akin to slavery.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 07:33:10 PM by spartana »

SnackDog

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #269 on: January 09, 2019, 08:15:02 PM »
What percentage of overall GDP is USG spending?  Could this tantrum of Trump's throw us into the next recession?  I can see consumer spending tanking rapidly as family and friends of unpaid USG workers and contractors start reducing their own spending so that they can loan money to those not getting paychecks.

It's only 800,000 people so less than 0.3% of the population.  And they are still spending I guess, just slightly less.  No recession in sight according to most economic indicators.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #270 on: January 09, 2019, 08:30:14 PM »
What percentage of overall GDP is USG spending?  Could this tantrum of Trump's throw us into the next recession?  I can see consumer spending tanking rapidly as family and friends of unpaid USG workers and contractors start reducing their own spending so that they can loan money to those not getting paychecks.

It's only 800,000 people so less than 0.3% of the population.  And they are still spending I guess, just slightly less.  No recession in sight according to most economic indicators.
Only about half the country works though, and a lot of the rest are children who rely on the first half. So it's closer to 0.6-0.8% of the workforce, based on how you account for part-timers, contractors, etc.

Also the effects are going to be mostly felt in a bunch of areas that rely heavily on federal employment. The DC area, all the little towns around national parks, etc.

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #271 on: January 09, 2019, 08:34:01 PM »
What percentage of overall GDP is USG spending?  Could this tantrum of Trump's throw us into the next recession?  I can see consumer spending tanking rapidly as family and friends of unpaid USG workers and contractors start reducing their own spending so that they can loan money to those not getting paychecks.

It's only 800,000 people so less than 0.3% of the population.  And they are still spending I guess, just slightly less. 

Contract employees outnumber direct federal workers about 2:1, so let's call it 2.4M total people not getting paid or about 1.5% of the total US workforce of 160M people (including both those with jobs and those looking for jobs). And those contractors have no hope of receiving back pay. Probably not enough to tip us into a recession single handedly, but it sure doesn't help.

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #272 on: January 09, 2019, 09:02:27 PM »
While I donít think this shutdown has enough oomph to push us into a recession, there are a lot of small businesses that will get hit pretty hard.  I heard a story the other day where they interviewed a small cafe/sandwich shop that was across the street from a large federal building - business was down something like 80% (no one was working across the street, so no one came in for coffee or lunch).

Daycare centers; lawn services, etc.  These arenít needed if you are furloughed. If this goes on for a month I wonder how many of these type businesses with lots of federal worker customers will struggle.

WaPo had a nice graphic up detailing where the 800k affected workers lived based on state.  Lots in DC/MD/VA, but every state had clusters, and the businesses around those clusters could have a rough month/quarter.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #273 on: January 09, 2019, 09:03:58 PM »
This CNN article about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump? 

DreamFIRE

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #274 on: January 09, 2019, 09:18:01 PM »
This CNN article about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Too bad this shutdown continues.  When is the democrat obstructionism going to end?

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #275 on: January 09, 2019, 09:22:50 PM »
you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Relax, kids.  This is a thread specifically devoted to discussing the shutdown, which Trump called a meeting about today.  I think discussing that is fair game in this thread. 

If you feel my contributions are insufficiently substantial on this topic, feel free to contribute something more weighty yourself.  Perhaps an analysis of the GOP compromise plan forming tonight to fund the wall in exchange for actually fixing our immigration system, including DACA and H2-B visas?  If Trump wanted funding for a wall, he probably should have gotten it when his party had full control of both houses of Congress that have the power to allocate funding.  He couldn't get it then, so I'm not sure why he thinks democrats are going to give it to him when even republicans wouldn't.  Personally, I don't think this new compromise plan is offering nearly enough to entice democrats to vote for a wall, but I'll hold off until the two of you have your say on this topic, since it seems my contributions are deemed unworthy.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 10:00:20 PM by sol »

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #276 on: January 09, 2019, 09:59:53 PM »
This CNN article about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Too bad this shutdown continues.  When is the democrat obstructionism going to end?

I donít think we can pin this one on the democrats, at least not up to this point.
Prior to the change in congress the republican senate passed a CR that would have avoided this, only to have that rejected by the WH.  Now we have the democratically controlled House passing legislation and the still-GOP held Senate signaling will do the same if allowed to hold a vote.
Then we have DJT walking out of a meeting that was being held for the sole purpose of trying to work out a solution.

Given that we have seen both the former and current congresses willing to end the shutdown, how do we get to blaming the democrats - who hold just one half of the legislature branch?

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #277 on: January 10, 2019, 12:25:25 AM »
I'm for the wall because I have family and friends who live and work at the bottom.  I genuinely feel sorry for those at the bottom in the US.  I read the negative messages on here about the wall and ask myself if I'm on the right side of this issue, but I can't ignore what I've seen and heard from family and friends.   I'm all over the map on this topic as a witness too, I've lived in California where many immigrants live, my wife is an immigrant and has only lived in the US 10 years, and I've already mentioned many of my family and friends are working retail, construction, trucking driving jobs.  They merely want to make a living wage and live in reasonably good housing, but they compete with people willing to work for very low wages and willing to live far below US standards just to survive in the US because life in the US is orderly compared to their homeland.  Many immigrates don't have degrees and aren't working at Google, but more often not very educated (again, I'm a witness to this), when petitioned, they are allowed into the US so there is a large supply of labor at the bottom that keeps wages down.  I lived in CA for 12 years, but I'm from MD and I currently live a few minutes outside Baltimore.  Not only do I think too much immigration hurts all people at the bottom, but I think it doubly hurts blacks.  "The rate for Blacks or African Americans was 6.2 percent, down by 1.1 percentage points from the October 2017 rate. The rate for people of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity was 4.4 percent in October 2018."*

The repubs were once viewed as aligning with business so bring on the immigrates to fuel corporations with cheap labor was the thinking.  That truly was how repubs were viewed and a google search could easily provide quotes from dems stating exactly that while dems spoke up for working conditions and protecting wages.  While the repub establishment can't claim they've cared much about workers, I see dems as caring a lot less than they once did.  DJT has turned the repubs upside down so it is hard to say what direction repubs will go after DJT is gone - they could double down on aligning with workers hoping to take electoral college votes from all the states DJT won in 2016 - that might be their strategy going forward. 

There are plenty of dems that made very bold anti-illegal immigrant statements prior to when DJT was elected.  I keep thinking their opposition to the wall is purely to oppose DJT no matter what he does since no matter what you think of DJT, he surely has upset the status quo in D.C. for both repubs and dems.  It is a corrupt city, corrupt to its core.
 
BTW Cesar Chavez, a labor union icon, opposed illegal immigrants and supported restricting immigration, because he thought immigrants weakened unions and kept wages low.  Illegal immigrants were used by farmers as strikebreakers.   Chavez knew a large supply of labor would weak the demand so affecting wages and more.  Chavez was a dem, dems marched and protested with him.  I can't forget this.

All of my support for the wall, is based on my support for workers at the bottom who already live in the US.  I'm for the people already here even if they are illegal.  I simply feel we need a wall or a steel barrier to slow down arrivals by making  it more difficult to cross.  Employ cameras and drones too, no problem, but I feel those things are simply identifying people who have already crossed.  Once they have crossed, it is difficult to return them it seems so first line of defense has to give those trying to enter a challenge physically. 

I want corporations to be starving for labor even if prices increase.  I want workers so powerful by there being fewer of them.  I want labor to be so low that corporations must develop their own training programs as well fund high school training programs.  I want American workers so rich that they'll decide to have more kids.  I want labor to be so strong corporations will provide free health care and onsite childcare.   I want corporations to be slaves to labor rather than labor being slaves to corporations.   

*https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/unemployment-rate-2-point-7-percent-for-people-ages-45-to-54-8-point-3-percent-for-ages-16-to-24-in-october-2018.htm

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #278 on: January 10, 2019, 04:14:32 AM »
I'm for the wall because I have family and friends who live and work at the bottom.  I genuinely feel sorry for those at the bottom in the US.  I read the negative messages on here about the wall and ask myself if I'm on the right side of this issue, but I can't ignore what I've seen and heard from family and friends.   I'm all over the map on this topic as a witness too, I've lived in California where many immigrants live, my wife is an immigrant and has only lived in the US 10 years, and I've already mentioned many of my family and friends are working retail, construction, trucking driving jobs.  They merely want to make a living wage and live in reasonably good housing, but they compete with people willing to work for very low wages and willing to live far below US standards just to survive in the US because life in the US is orderly compared to their homeland.  Many immigrates don't have degrees and aren't working at Google, but more often not very educated (again, I'm a witness to this), when petitioned, they are allowed into the US so there is a large supply of labor at the bottom that keeps wages down.  I lived in CA for 12 years, but I'm from MD and I currently live a few minutes outside Baltimore.  Not only do I think too much immigration hurts all people at the bottom, but I think it doubly hurts blacks.  "The rate for Blacks or African Americans was 6.2 percent, down by 1.1 percentage points from the October 2017 rate. The rate for people of Hispanic or Latino ethnicity was 4.4 percent in October 2018."*

The repubs were once viewed as aligning with business so bring on the immigrates to fuel corporations with cheap labor was the thinking.  That truly was how repubs were viewed and a google search could easily provide quotes from dems stating exactly that while dems spoke up for working conditions and protecting wages.  While the repub establishment can't claim they've cared much about workers, I see dems as caring a lot less than they once did.  DJT has turned the repubs upside down so it is hard to say what direction repubs will go after DJT is gone - they could double down on aligning with workers hoping to take electoral college votes from all the states DJT won in 2016 - that might be their strategy going forward. 

There are plenty of dems that made very bold anti-illegal immigrant statements prior to when DJT was elected.  I keep thinking their opposition to the wall is purely to oppose DJT no matter what he does since no matter what you think of DJT, he surely has upset the status quo in D.C. for both repubs and dems.  It is a corrupt city, corrupt to its core.
 
BTW Cesar Chavez, a labor union icon, opposed illegal immigrants and supported restricting immigration, because he thought immigrants weakened unions and kept wages low.  Illegal immigrants were used by farmers as strikebreakers.   Chavez knew a large supply of labor would weak the demand so affecting wages and more.  Chavez was a dem, dems marched and protested with him.  I can't forget this.

All of my support for the wall, is based on my support for workers at the bottom who already live in the US.  I'm for the people already here even if they are illegal.  I simply feel we need a wall or a steel barrier to slow down arrivals by making  it more difficult to cross.  Employ cameras and drones too, no problem, but I feel those things are simply identifying people who have already crossed.  Once they have crossed, it is difficult to return them it seems so first line of defense has to give those trying to enter a challenge physically. 

I want corporations to be starving for labor even if prices increase.  I want workers so powerful by there being fewer of them.  I want labor to be so low that corporations must develop their own training programs as well fund high school training programs.  I want American workers so rich that they'll decide to have more kids.  I want labor to be so strong corporations will provide free health care and onsite childcare.   I want corporations to be slaves to labor rather than labor being slaves to corporations.   

*https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/unemployment-rate-2-point-7-percent-for-people-ages-45-to-54-8-point-3-percent-for-ages-16-to-24-in-october-2018.htm

FenderBender,

I find your argument that allowing low wage labor into the country harms poor Americans by depressing wages to be rational and compelling.  I just don't think the answer is to build a wall. 

Building a wall might slow down some entry across our southern border (emphasis on might) at a cost of billions of dollars.  But it will do nothing to slow down those immigrants who came in legally with visas and decided to stay.  Right now, nobody knows the exact percentages of overstays vs illegal crossings, but older data indicates that it might be in the neighborhood of 50%.  We could make it harder to get a visa to the US, but it is already pretty difficult for most people and we don't want to discourage legitimate foreign visitors from coming here as tourists or students and spendng their money. 

More importantly, why build a wall in the hope of creating a demand for US labor when current immigration law legally brings in low skill, low wage labor under the H2 program?  Employers (including Trump) legally bring in low skill workers to do everything from agricultural work to working in hotels and resorts.  Their argument is that no Americans will fill their jobs, so they have to bring in unskilled foreign labor.  (Of course, if they paid a better wage, more Americans might be willing to do those jobs.)  If we build a wall and it actually slows down the number of illegal workers coming in, do you think those employers will raise their wages?  Or will they simply continue to insist that nobody will fill their jobs and demand more visas for foreign workers?   

As long as there are foreigners for whom moving to the US to do low-wage labor will provide a major step up in life and there are American employers who prefer to hire illegal labor rather than pay a wage that American citizens will accept, there's going to be both a supply and a demand for illegal immigration.  A wall isn't going to change that. 

If you want to break that supply and demand relationship, the effective thing would be to require that employers verify legal status of their employees and penalize them if they hire illegal immigrants.  This would cause the demand side to shrink incredibly quickly.  I also think we should eliminate visa programs for unskilled and low skilled workers.  There will be workers to do those jobs if the wages go up.  I do support H2 visas for highly skilled workers, but to me this means engineers, scientists, and eminent scholars.  It shouldn't mean fashion models (because there are no attractive Americans qualified to wear clothes?), not that I'm pointing any fingers... 

To me, this effort against illegal immigration looks a lot like our failed "war on drugs."  For all our efforts, street level cocaine prices in the US are down, not up over the years, because people will always find a way to supply what Americans will pay $100 per gram for.  If we really wanted to change that, we'd have to reduce demand.   Immigration is the same.  If you want to reduce illegal immigration, just stop employers from giving them jobs.  Don't waste time, money, and effort to build a wall to try to stop people from coming to America to take the jobs American employers continue to offer. 


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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #279 on: January 10, 2019, 04:22:07 AM »
I know Sailor Sam isn't allowed to 'really comment' on this, but it really pissed me off to the point I found it offensive:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/01/09/coast-guard-families-told-they-can-have-garage-sales-cope-with-government-shutdown/?utm_term=.02b8aa209e70

Here's the official document: https://www.scribd.com/document/397140587/Managing-Furlough

the_fixer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #280 on: January 10, 2019, 05:23:27 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #281 on: January 10, 2019, 05:49:56 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 06:06:38 AM by former player »

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #282 on: January 10, 2019, 06:05:54 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #283 on: January 10, 2019, 06:21:44 AM »
This CNN article about today's meeting with the president reads like something from The Onion.

Trump admits that he's the one keeping government shut down, then blames democrats for making him do it even as they pass bills to re-open.

He literally says "bye bye" and walks out of a negotiation meeting, then accuses them of refusing to negotiate.

Schumer asks why he won't open the government and stop using the lives of federal employees as leverage, and he plainly says "Because then you won't give me what I want."

All this story needs is a few niener-nieners and an "I'm rubber and you're glue" tagline and we could have a full-on playground temper tantrum on our hands.  I'm so glad "the great dealmaker" is running our country now.
 (No I'm not.)

Looks like this thing is going to drag on for a while.  I was kind of hoping that the 21 day limit for longest shutdown ever would motivate him to find a deal in order to avoid owning the longest shutdown in history, but it doesn't look like he cares.

Ummmm...yeah....we all read the news....every day........you seem a little obsessed with Trump?

Yep, classic Trump derangement syndrome.

Too bad this shutdown continues.  When is the democrat obstructionism going to end?

@DreamFIRE - do you really believe all the stuff you are posting or are you trolling?  I'm really interested and wonder when you started listening to the Daily Caller, Breitbart and all the other thinly veiled hate rags.  I know many feel this is an echo chamber, but MMM seems to have a lot of high earning individuals and military and both of those groups are historically conservative.  I suspect that many are like me - a lifelong independent that skews toward the center - which makes me think we are more representative of the US population rather than an echo chamber. 

On a side note, I called my completely useless Rep (the most known pic of him is him napping while Congress is in session) and my somewhat useless Senators about the USCG bill.  As a reps of a coastal state, they should step up to the plate and take leadership on this issue. 

At my company, we have a few consultants contracted to the VA.  They are full time employees to us, so they are still getting paid.  I wonder about all the consultants to the USG through big firms like Accenture, Deloitte and Booz Allen. I would imagine it's the same although if there is a protracted shutdown, those FTEs will be let go, consultants that do not bill time are not kept on payroll. 

former player

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #284 on: January 10, 2019, 06:37:34 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.

the_fixer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #285 on: January 10, 2019, 06:47:04 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?
Be mad at the politicians that put us in this mess not the coast guard for offering common sense tips to their people for dealing what is a financial emergency to many of their workers.

Not every tip applies to every one in the coast guard and some can be applied by their spouse as well.

Look at the document as a whole it is very similar to the discussion that we have on this board all of the time about what to do in a downturn cut back on spending where you can, look for ways to  generate extra income and think outside the box.

This is the shit sandwich we have been given and it is better to address it and deal with the reality than to put your head in the sand, get behind on bills, take out payday loans and extra credit cards.

Former player - let's here your suggestions on how the TSA, coast guard and other employees should deal with the situation? Feel free to draft a letter and see what you can come up with.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.
Ok that's what I thought thanks for confirming.

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scottish

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #286 on: January 10, 2019, 06:48:55 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...


former player

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #287 on: January 10, 2019, 07:02:19 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

It's fairly standard for full-time government workers to have to sign a contract stating that they will not take other employment or appointments, or will do so only with permission of their employer (currently on furlough).  It's partly to avoid conflict situations and partly to avoid corruption (people being paid by the government but getting away with not turning up and working elsewhere).

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #288 on: January 10, 2019, 07:08:15 AM »
I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

The NOAA officer corps specifically (not all of NOAA), is one of the seven uniformed services, even though it's not one of the five branches of the military. So they operate under a lot more military-like rules than most federal workers and actually could be militarized by the president in an emergency.

I'll admit I had no idea either before we started this discussion.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #289 on: January 10, 2019, 07:10:53 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

NOAA falls under the US Commerce department, but it does have its own uniformed branch, NOAA Corps.  Officers in the NOAA Corps are much like those in the USCG with regards to the shutdown.
Outside of the NOAA Corps there are both essential and non-essential federal employees at NOAA.  Remember how I said NOAA falls under the US Commerce Dept?  That's because it's most important function is tracking the weather, including storms and hurricanes, and providing forecasts, including the marine weather forecasts that all shipping (commerce!) relies on. It's also responsible for satellites and the emergency broadcast system. Those individuals are working without pay. NOAA is also responsible for all the fishing activity in US waters (which stretch 200 nm from the coast).

As for the practicality of 'finding other work'.  We are basically told we must be ready to report back to work in 24 hours.  Based on previous shutdowns an end to the shutdown could be hammered out in a single day. Keep in mind that the longest a shutdown has ever lasted previously was 21 days (we are in day 20).  Few employers are enthusiastic about taking on new people for very short contracts (payroll, paperwork, training etc takes time from the employer) which leaves side gigs like Uber - useful to some but rarely well paying.  As federal jobs tend to be tightly clustered you'll have hundreds or even thousands of workers in one area all able to take up these gig jobs. 

From personal experience what most shutdown workers seem to do is to get as much housework done as possible, basically 'clearing the decks' for the inevitable crap-storm that follows the end of a shutdown.  All that work that isn't being done now still needs to get done, and the weeks following a shutdown are miserable as paperwork and projects and data analysis have all piled up in everyone's absence. Experiments that were prematurely halted have to be re-started. So salaried full time employees (FTEs) wind up working extra hours which thye aren't paid for to play catch-up.

the_fixer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #290 on: January 10, 2019, 07:50:50 AM »
Meanwhile in our shutdown story we are supposed to leave for a vacation that has been paid for since last year prior to my wife starting with the federal government.

According to the information from OPM she is not supposed to take vacation as I read it since if she is called back up she is supposed to start back the next day or be considered AWOL.

We will be out of the country on a boat with no access to phone or email unless we pay a crazy amount of money and will not have the ability to hop on a flight back to report to work.

So I guess we will roll the dice and go, hopefully the shutdown ends before we leave or after we return. My wife is going to email her boss to remind them that she will be on vacation.

If the government opens while we are gone hopefully she has a job when she comes back.

Day 4 wife working at sub shop (pays enough to cover our groceries)

I am picking up some extra OT at my regular job to help out with a little extra cash for the vacation.



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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #291 on: January 10, 2019, 08:16:52 AM »
Have fun on your trip.  Did she fill out a leave request before the shutdown?  If so, it seems like they should still be able to honor that and keeping the supervisor informed is a good idea. 

the_fixer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #292 on: January 10, 2019, 08:24:32 AM »
Have fun on your trip.  Did she fill out a leave request before the shutdown?  If so, it seems like they should still be able to honor that and keeping the supervisor informed is a good idea.
No she was told that nobody uses the request system and to just email her manager when she is planning to take vacation.

At least this is what I was told.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #293 on: January 10, 2019, 08:28:36 AM »
According to the information from OPM she is not supposed to take vacation as I read it since if she is called back up she is supposed to start back the next day or be considered AWOL.

I haven't heard that approved leave periods are being cancelled like this.  Did you actually check this understanding with her employer?  I know a few feds with upcoming vacations who are not under the same impression.  If the shutdown ends during an approved leave period, they return to normal status and thus are still on leave.

cross-posted with this, which sounds like it could be a problem:

Have fun on your trip.  Did she fill out a leave request before the shutdown?  If so, it seems like they should still be able to honor that and keeping the supervisor informed is a good idea.
No she was told that nobody uses the request system and to just email her manager when she is planning to take vacation.

At least this is what I was told.

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« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 08:30:12 AM by charis »

Peachtea

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #294 on: January 10, 2019, 08:44:26 AM »
While I think that having people work while not getting paid is wrong and the furlough sucks I think that the document that the coast guard put out is great.

It encourages people to not use credit and think outside the box and look at the resources you have available.

It sucks that the TSA, coast guard and others are working without pay and that so many employees are furloughed (including my wife) but kudos to the Coast Guard for putting together a common sense document for dealing with this issue.

Is it fair? HELL NO! But it is the situation we are in and they provide good common sense tips.

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How many of those proposed ways of raising money do you think are available to someone who is living and working on a coastguard ship?  Also, why are they proposing that people work other jobs when their contracts of employment prohibit them from doing so?  Supposing you aren't on a ship and are allowed to work elsewhere, how much money can you raise by babysitting?  Enough to pay a mortgage?  Enough to feed a family?  Enough to pay medical copays?  How about starting with some common sense in the White House?

This is interesting.   Which of the furloughed federal workers are not allowed to go AWOL and find other work?    Is it just the military?    I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

It's fairly standard for full-time government workers to have to sign a contract stating that they will not take other employment or appointments, or will do so only with permission of their employer (currently on furlough).  It's partly to avoid conflict situations and partly to avoid corruption (people being paid by the government but getting away with not turning up and working elsewhere).

Iím civilian at a non-military agency. Our furlough notices specifically reminded us that we are not allowed to engage in outside employment during the furlough unless it had been approved before the furlough. So those who had a pre-approved side hustle can do it during the shutdown. Finding other temp work, not allowed, because the people who approve outside employment are also furloughed. Itís a conflicts check. Same with pro-bono. Can only do the pro-bono activity that was already approved. So Iím left with working on my blog (thatís for fun, doesnít make any money) and volunteering for with the one org Iím already approved to do.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 08:47:34 AM by Peachtea »

spartana

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #295 on: January 10, 2019, 08:55:59 AM »
I don't think NOAA is part of the military...

The NOAA officer corps specifically (not all of NOAA), is one of the seven uniformed services, even though it's not one of the five branches of the military. So they operate under a lot more military-like rules than most federal workers and actually could be militarized by the president in an emergency.

I'll admit I had no idea either before we started this discussion.
I believe NOAA members can quit/walk off the job with no ramifications other than for forfiture of pay (although there may be some other ramifications I'm not aware of). The coast guard service member, like the other armed forces, can't with out being charged with AWOL (which carry very stiff penalties) and eventually (after 30 days AWOL) desertion - which can carry some pretty hefty prison terms and of course a death sentence if it happens during a war.

While of course I'm using extreme hyperbole and this wouldn't happen in a long shutdown where the CG would eventually find funding to pay it's members (maybe the DoD would temporarily fund it) its still an interesting "twist" on essential employees. I'm ex-coast guard myself but only had a few very short term shutdowns while in. The single kidless young debt and mortgage free service member usually does OK because they can eat and sleep at their unit, those with young families and a non-working spouse who are dependent have a rough time. Food stamps help as do other military service aid organizations in times like this.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 09:07:04 AM by spartana »

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #296 on: January 10, 2019, 09:01:30 AM »
Upthread there was some discussion about the savings/costs of a government shutdown.  Previous shutdowns have wound up costing the government (and by extension the US taxpayer) billions. 
In 2013 the 16 day shutdown was estimated to have cost around $2.5B in backpay and benefits, plus shaving $2B-6B off that quarter's GDP.  As Maizeman calculated, the tax revenue from that amount is considerable - for 2013 it was estimated to have cost the government between $500MM to $1.6B.

In sum, the combined costs of this shutdown seem very likely to eclipse the ~$4B difference between what congress has offered and what the WH is demanding.  It seems certain that the revenue lost will exceed $5B if this shutdown drags on past the 1 month mark.

As no shutdown has lasted longer than 3 weeks and each shutdown is different in terms of exactly how much of the government is furloughed extrapolations are a bit dicey.  But I see costs as only accelerating the longer it lasts as the effects will go from 'inconvenient' to 'seriously detrimental' for many different entities.

A good primer on the cost of shutdowns: https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2018/01/21/why-the-government-shutdown-actually-costs-money-000624

dude

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #297 on: January 10, 2019, 09:07:19 AM »
You know what would end this fucking thing TOMORROW? If TSA agents called in sick EN MASSE -- the whole fucking lot of them. A nationwide airport shutdown for even one day would cause total fucking chaos, and then maybe the rest of America could appreciate the fucking bullshit much of the federal workforce is going through, especially those "excepted" employees who are working but won't collect their paychecks this weekend.

All you Trump knob-gobblers supporters who think this shit is right, or support his racist fucking policies are full of shit. "The Wall" has absolutely NOTHING to do with border security and EVERYTHING to do with appeasing the racist Trump "base," i.e., YOU. Any idiotic arguments to the contrary, or attempts to dismiss these grounds, completely ignores everything this guy has said and done for the past 3 years (campaign + time in office). Hollow rationalizations masking the uncomfortable truth that Trump supporters simply don't want any more brown people (from "shithole countries") in this country (though I'm sure you chose to ignore your Dear Leader's comments about why we can't have more immigrants from countries like Norway). Polls show border towns in the U.S. overwhelmingly do not want a stupid fucking wall. And nearly 70% of Americans do not support shutting down the government over this idiotic "wall."

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #298 on: January 10, 2019, 09:12:49 AM »
My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.
Ok that's what I thought thanks for confirming.

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Glad you recognise my mustachian passion for efficiency - one person solving the problems of 2.4m people (employees, contractors and their families) is far more efficient than 2.4m people each trying to find their own solutions.  Also fits in with small government, effective government, reducing financial waste, etc. etc.

the_fixer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #299 on: January 10, 2019, 09:39:25 AM »
My suggestion is that the situation should be dealt with by the person who created it: Trump.  Who is destroying the workings of the US government, at great financial cost, because he is scared of a couple of right wing talk show hosts.
Ok that's what I thought thanks for confirming.

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Glad you recognise my mustachian passion for efficiency - one person solving the problems of 2.4m people (employees, contractors and their families) is far more efficient than 2.4m people each trying to find their own solutions.  Also fits in with small government, effective government, reducing financial waste, etc. etc.
Efficiency would have been resolving immigration the last 1000 times it has come up as a hot issue way before Trump was ever elected to office but BOTH parties would rather fight and kick the can down the road so they have leverage / distractions for the next cycle.

The particulars change over time but the root of the issue remains and all parties have failed to deal with the issue for as long as I can remember.

But hey, keep the left and right moving farther and farther apart getting angrier and angrier at each other further separating the country / political climate and further giving the two parties more power.

Meanwhile I will continue to vote for whomever is best for the country and our future despite what party they are affiliated with and demand that they all work together for what is best for the country instead of buying into their party lines.

Schumer, Pelosi, Trump, McConnell and all of them need to be held accountable by everyone instead of throwing stones at each other.



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