Author Topic: Fed employees - shutdown stories  (Read 26120 times)

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #200 on: January 07, 2019, 05:33:36 PM »
The left likes to cloud the issue saying that the wall won't solve this, or it won't solve that, but the wall is just one important piece of the pie.

Then why isn't Trump talking about any of those other pieces?  He already turned down $25 billion for border security in exchange for a DACA fix.  Some of that $25b would have even gone toward his wall.  But he doesn't want to actually secure the border, as I keep saying to you, he only wants a symbol that his most vile base supporters believe sends a message to immigrants seeking a better life through hard work.

DF, you have consistently refuse to engage in any of the specific criticisms in this thread about how to fix our immigration problems.  I'm beginning to think it's because you're one of those folks who crave a symbol instead. 

horsepoor

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #201 on: January 07, 2019, 05:40:11 PM »
Lost in all the talk of federal employees having their pay delayed (e.g. inconvenient but paid vacation) is that many, even probably most of the people affected are not federal employees but rather contractors who will never see a penny in back pay or compensation.
That's the cost of not being an employee, you can generally command higher income but have no job security. Sucks to be in that position for sure, but this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Not necessarily.  We often have more entry-level people coming in as contractors, hoping to get a foot in the door to Federal employment.  I have a contractor essentially functioning as a full time employee and she is paid about equivalent to a GS-09 even though she has an advanced degree and some serious skills.

DreamFIRE

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #202 on: January 07, 2019, 05:47:41 PM »
The left likes to cloud the issue saying that the wall won't solve this, or it won't solve that, but the wall is just one important piece of the pie.

DF, you have consistently refuse to engage in any of the specific criticisms in this thread about how to fix our immigration problems.  I'm beginning to think it's because you're one of those folks who crave a symbol instead.

You must be missing some of my posts because I have mentioned repeatedly specific other methods as I have months ago on the MMM forum as well.  But this thread is regarding the shutdown, which is most relevant to the wall.   Yet, I still mentioned e-verify, border patrol, deportation, for example, in this thread.

I'm not here to defend Trump.  As I already told you earlier, I'm not a Trump supporter in general, and I opposed him on health care, for example.

kimmarg

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #203 on: January 07, 2019, 06:35:13 PM »
Shutdown stories meet "Mustachian people problems".  Was supposed to payoff the final chunk of the student loans this month. Instead we'll be keeping that cash out to cover the missed paycheck. (And yes, since payroll should have processed today it will be late) Thankfully we put nearly 50% of our take home on student loans so the effect on the day to day budget is minimal.

palerider1858

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #204 on: January 07, 2019, 06:49:21 PM »
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.

DaMa

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #205 on: January 08, 2019, 07:08:43 AM »

For example, federal employees pay biweekly insurance premiums.  When they don't get paid, their premiums aren't paid and their policies can technically lapse.  Are insurers required to provide free health insurance to millions of people? 

Federal employees are fully-insured so government pays premiums to the health insurance companies.  According to OPM the government pays the full premium, including employee share, for 365 days.

From OPM.com:

What happens to employeesí health and life insurance benefits during a furlough?

For health benefits, enrollment continues for no more than 365 days in a nonpay status. The nonpay status may be continuous or broken by periods of less than four consecutive months in a pay status. The Government contribution continues while employees are in a nonpay status. The Government also is responsible for advancing from salary the employee share of premium. The employee can choose between paying the agency directly on a current basis or having the premiums accumulate and be withheld from his or her pay upon returning to duty.

I get your general point, but surely this isn't actually a problem, right? I assume the government, like many megacorps, doesn't actually pay premiums to insurance companies, they just pay them a fee for administering claims and retain the liability for itself.

The government pays insurance premiums to insurance companies for employee health benefits just like any other employer that provides insurance, so if employees and/or government aren't making their contribution, it is a fair question as to whether (or how long) the insurer will provide services. 

You might be thinking of the fact that the U.S. Government "self insures" itself for its own liabilities.  For example, there's no insurance policy for government-owned cars.

Many (most?) large companies self-insure health care insurance for employees.  They pay health insurance companies an administration fee, but pay the actual costs themselves.

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #206 on: January 08, 2019, 07:33:48 AM »
Federal employees are fully-insured so government pays premiums to the health insurance companies.  According to OPM the government pays the full premium, including employee share, for 365 days.

This still doesn't help us understand what happens to fehb in the event of a long shutdown.  Like so many of these rules, it seems built on the fragile assumption that a shutdown couldn't possibly last long enough to extend past the expiration of a 365 window, starting on some unspecified date.

This one started in late December.  Did that 365 day window expire on Dec 31?  Does the government always pay a year in advance on a rolling biweekly schedule, and if so how do they know which fehb plan employees will select next year?  Or do they pay each January 1 when the new plans go into effect, in which case they haven't paid for any of 2019?  Are there "essential" employees being asked to work without pay just to process payments to insurance companies from paychecks that aren't being issued?  What happens after the 365 days, whichever days they are?

I feel like this OPM page, while trying to be helpful, only raises more questions than it answers about the health insurance coverage of millions of Americans.

edit:  wife thinks this OPM page means that fehb premiums will be paid for exactly 365 days, not "no more than 365 days" as the OPM guidance says.  I would read that as a hard upper limit on the duration of payments, without any lower limit specified.  She thinks this means federal employees will be automatically renewed in their current plans during the next open season, and premiums will continue to be paid until next December 22nd.  And that on December 23rd of 2019, every federal employee would be uninsured.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 08:34:20 AM by sol »

GuitarStv

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #207 on: January 08, 2019, 07:55:17 AM »
In other shutdown news, I had a national park vacation schedule for this week.  I expected all of the visitor centers and bathrooms to be closed, but all of the parks I've been to have actually been locked, like at the gate.
Yesterday at Guadalupe, the entrance gate was barred and there about a hundred cars parked along the side of the highway with families running across multiple lanes during breaks in the traffic.  This is NOT SAFE.  Why don't they just leave the gate open and let people use the nice turn lane, and then park in the huge parking lot a hundred yards away, where no one is going to get mowed down?  There are still nature trails and such you can access without needing the visitor center to be open.  By all means lock the buildings, but don't lock the gates to a park that I own.

I'm waiting for the national news to cover the first traffic fatality at a "closed" national park that decided to block safe access and put kids at risk of being mowed down by speeding cars.  This is stupid.

Seven people dead in national parks since the shutdown . . . no traffic fatalities though.
  https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/qvqq77/yosemite-national-park-death-went-unreported-for-a-week-during-government-shutdown

SnackDog

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #208 on: January 08, 2019, 08:15:22 AM »

Seven people dead in national parks since the shutdown . . .

That is about average for fatalities since there are 11 or 12 per month most years.

I'm more concerned about people tearing up the parks, which they do fast enough even when the rangers are around.  It might be better to shut them down.

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #209 on: January 08, 2019, 08:40:46 AM »
Trump is going on TV to talk about the shutdown.  Any bets on what he says?

I think there a few extreme and crazy options, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to say "both sides need to come together on this to find a compromise."  Instead, I'm expecting him to declare martial law or emergency powers, divert military resources to the border (again), or attempt some kind of power move like prohibiting congress from meeting.  Or alternately, totally capitulate to Democrats on the $5b but try to save face with some story about how he's doing it because border patrol agents are the most important people in the world and they deserve to be paid, and the "ongoing crisis" at the border requires our full attention instead of an abdication of our responsibilities at the border by shuttering government.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #210 on: January 08, 2019, 08:53:31 AM »
Trump is going on TV to talk about the shutdown.  Any bets on what he says?

I think there a few extreme and crazy options, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to say "both sides need to come together on this to find a compromise."  Instead, I'm expecting him to declare martial law or emergency powers, divert military resources to the border (again), or attempt some kind of power move like prohibiting congress from meeting.  Or alternately, totally capitulate to Democrats on the $5b but try to save face with some story about how he's doing it because border patrol agents are the most important people in the world and they deserve to be paid, and the "ongoing crisis" at the border requires our full attention instead of an abdication of our responsibilities at the border by shuttering government.

I wonder if he is using this wall to create controversy and accomplish something else while no one is looking. 
I wonder if he is creating enough disgruntlement on the democrats side so that they don't go for the wall but agree on something else that he really wants while still acting like he wants a wall to save face with some of his voter base.

BTW, I met an ex-border patrol officer yesterday who believes a wall is necessary and showed me pictures of border based drug seizures as well as current fencing that is nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire that is more designed for cattle since any human can easily cross though.  Better fencing than what we have now is probably a good idea.  One person experience does not sway my thinking but does add to it. 

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #211 on: January 08, 2019, 09:21:51 AM »
I wonder if he is using this wall to create controversy and accomplish something else while no one is looking. 

Just Russian collusion.  Remember when all of the indictments started landing last month, and I said something like "what crazy thing will Trump do next to suck up all of the media coverage and distract people from these new revelations?"  Well, this is it.

Quote
I wonder if he is creating enough disgruntlement on the democrats side so that they don't go for the wall but agree on something else that he really wants

I think a big part of it is not getting something specific that he wants, it's preventing the incoming congressional majority from announcing or executing any of their legislative priorities.  Pelosi had all of these plans for subpoenas, his tax returns, protecting the Mueller investigation, ethics reforms, and campaign finance and voting rights protections.  Instead, they are doing absolutely nothing with their majority except arguing with Trump about a useless border wall. 

Quote
BTW, I met an ex-border patrol officer yesterday who believes a wall is necessary

Walls are totally necessary, in some places!  We already have hundreds of miles of walls, mostly in urban areas and their surroundings, where it would be easy to drive a cargo truck full of drugs across the border.  We funnel people into checkpoints using walls.

But a wall in the desert makes no sense.  Very few people cross there anyway, and the ones that do can't drive across the desert for more than a few miles before they hit a real road, and that's where all of the manned border checkpoints already exist.

Quote
Better fencing than what we have now is probably a good idea.

It won't help.  There is always some other way to enter the country, including legally by just buying a plane ticket, which is how most illegal immigrants came to American anyway.

If you want to reduce illegal immigration in America, you need to remove the incentive for people to come here seeking work.  Enforce e-verify for everyone, and penalize employers who break that law with heavy fines used to pay for the enforcement.  Boom, illegal immigration just dropped by 75% without building a single foot of wall or spending a single new dollar.  Accept that agricultural prices will rise as a result.

But as we've previously discussed, republicans don't actually want to reduce immigrant labor because republican-owned businesses depend on it.  They only use this issue as a dog-whistle for American racists, a way to subtly signal "hey I hate brown people too, vote for me!" without coming out and saying as much in a way that would alienate anti-racist voters.  If they actually wanted to reduce illegal immigration, a wall is not the way to do it. 

This whole shutdown debate is just more Apprentice style reality tv, a carefully crafted made-for-tv narrative starring a made-for-tv president.  The drama is fake, the conflict is fake, the solutions are fake, and most of the characters are fake.  Its real purpose is to convince gullible tv watchers to vote one way or the other in the coming election by portraying their chosen stars or villains in a particular light, and to control the story arc so that democrats can't pursue any of their own legislative priorities.

spartana

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #212 on: January 08, 2019, 09:26:23 AM »
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.
The VA hospitals seem to be fully functioning as well and monthly benefits are still being paid to Vets with disabilities. Not sure how long that will last in an extended shutdown but since the VA is front funded for each year it won't likely be affected.

Peachtea

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #213 on: January 08, 2019, 10:34:28 AM »
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.
The VA hospitals seem to be fully functioning as well and monthly benefits are still being paid to Vets with disabilities. Not sure how long that will last in an extended shutdown but since the VA is front funded for each year it won't likely be affected.

Itís a partial gov shutdown, because several agencies were previously funded for the year in separate bills. Only the agencies in the last bill that includes DHS are shutdown. (But itís still a good chunk of agencies and employees affected.) So DoD, VA, SSA, DOL and some others are fully funded for the year. They wonít have any problems until end of next September when the 2020 FY showdown happens.

Maverick1

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #214 on: January 08, 2019, 11:14:27 AM »
I'm the controller for a Canadian company whose US subsidiary is getting audited by the IRS.  I sent the IRS reams of data about our company in the Fall and again in December, and was told by the IRS they would follow-up the first week in January.  With the shutdown I haven't heard from them.  The best part (from my perspective) is the IRS self-imposed deadlines, after these deadlines they can no longer question us or re-assess any amounts.  With those deadlines fast approaching, selflishly I hope the shutdown lasts a little longer :)

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #215 on: January 08, 2019, 11:30:21 AM »
More in the weird/random section of shutdown stories.  Our small region office has received 3 Spam calls from "card services" saying we are eligible to lower the interest rates on our credit card bills so far today.

justchristine

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #216 on: January 08, 2019, 11:37:57 AM »
Trump is going on TV to talk about the shutdown.  Any bets on what he says?

I think there a few extreme and crazy options, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to say "both sides need to come together on this to find a compromise."  Instead, I'm expecting him to declare martial law or emergency powers, divert military resources to the border (again), or attempt some kind of power move like prohibiting congress from meeting.  Or alternately, totally capitulate to Democrats on the $5b but try to save face with some story about how he's doing it because border patrol agents are the most important people in the world and they deserve to be paid, and the "ongoing crisis" at the border requires our full attention instead of an abdication of our responsibilities at the border by shuttering government.

I wonder if he is using this wall to create controversy and accomplish something else while no one is looking. 
I wonder if he is creating enough disgruntlement on the democrats side so that they don't go for the wall but agree on something else that he really wants while still acting like he wants a wall to save face with some of his voter base.

BTW, I met an ex-border patrol officer yesterday who believes a wall is necessary and showed me pictures of border based drug seizures as well as current fencing that is nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire that is more designed for cattle since any human can easily cross though.  Better fencing than what we have now is probably a good idea.  One person experience does not sway my thinking but does add to it.

Part of me wonders if this is some bizzaro world way of reducing the size of the government.  Hey look, we survived the shutdown without these 800,000 govt employees, why should we keep them around.  Then my logical brain says that is far too sophisticated planning for this administration.

spartana

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #217 on: January 08, 2019, 12:09:07 PM »
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.
The VA hospitals seem to be fully functioning as well and monthly benefits are still being paid to Vets with disabilities. Not sure how long that will last in an extended shutdown but since the VA is front funded for each year it won't likely be affected.

It’s a partial gov shutdown, because several agencies were previously funded for the year in separate bills. Only the agencies in the last bill that includes DHS are shutdown. (But it’s still a good chunk of agencies and employees affected.) So DoD, VA, SSA, DOL and some others are fully funded for the year. They won’t have any problems until end of next September when the 2020 FY showdown happens.
That's what I figured. I wonder if that means VA employees are getting pay checks though or just that VA services are funded and benefits for vets continue?

Also is the shutdown something that will effect ACA subsidies? I'm not on the ACA but it seems I read somewhere they would also be continued to be paid during the shutdown.

mm1970

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #218 on: January 08, 2019, 12:41:11 PM »
An Undeniable Reality ó Border Walls Work

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

Quote
For one, the U.S. is hemorrhaging money ó at least $116 billion annually ó because of the high cost of illegal immigration. Any money spent on a border wall is well invested and will pay for itself ten-fold down the road in costs to state and local governments.

Immigration Experts Explain What An Effective Border Wall Actually Looks Like

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/
Those pics look almost exactly like the border wall in a particular area of the country...where they climb it, toss something over the top so they don't get hurt, and jump over to the other side.  Then they throw things over, light a fire, have a bonfire.  What happens?  Nothing

(Because the border patrol agents aren't stupid, and they know this is being used as a diversion to direct attention away from somewhere else).

kimmarg

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #219 on: January 08, 2019, 12:45:56 PM »
More in the weird/random section of shutdown stories.  Our small region office has received 3 Spam calls from "card services" saying we are eligible to lower the interest rates on our credit card bills so far today.

Oh yea we get those. Plus trying to sell us extended warranty on the GSA vehicle - lol

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #220 on: January 08, 2019, 01:28:48 PM »
Speculation here is that Trump's prime time address tonight will attempt to declare a national emergency, to allow him to use DoD funds to build a border wall, knowing full well that it will get overturned by the courts and no wall will get built.

The idea here is that the republicans all know Trump is losing this shutdown battle badly, and he needs some way to capitulate while saving face.  He will agree to re-open the government with zero border wall funding, claiming he has found his funding through the emergency declaration.  This solution allows him to tell his base supporters "I tried my best to do this, and the democrats blocked me and the courts blocked me and it's all part of the deep state conspiracy to undermine my presidency".  That way he can totally cave without appearing to totally cave.  He can cave while blaming other people, and hopefully his most gullible base supporters will buy it.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #221 on: January 08, 2019, 02:00:22 PM »
Speculation here is that Trump's prime time address tonight will attempt to declare a national emergency, to allow him to use DoD funds to build a border wall, knowing full well that it will get overturned by the courts and no wall will get built.

The idea here is that the republicans all know Trump is losing this shutdown battle badly, and he needs some way to capitulate while saving face.  He will agree to re-open the government with zero border wall funding, claiming he has found his funding through the emergency declaration.  This solution allows him to tell his base supporters "I tried my best to do this, and the democrats blocked me and the courts blocked me and it's all part of the deep state conspiracy to undermine my presidency".  That way he can totally cave without appearing to totally cave.  He can cave while blaming other people, and hopefully his most gullible base supporters will buy it.

Tomorrow being the last day to get timecards in before people don't get checks on Friday does lead weight to this speculation. 

Nickel

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #222 on: January 08, 2019, 02:14:05 PM »
An Undeniable Reality ó Border Walls Work

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

Quote
For one, the U.S. is hemorrhaging money ó at least $116 billion annually ó because of the high cost of illegal immigration. Any money spent on a border wall is well invested and will pay for itself ten-fold down the road in costs to state and local governments.

Immigration Experts Explain What An Effective Border Wall Actually Looks Like

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

Strawman argument from Daily Caller (a conservative American news and opinion website based founded by political pundit Tucker Carlson and Neil Patel in 2010).  As SOL has pointed out and everyone agrees: Yes, border walls do work and are necessary in urban areas, near border crossings, etc.  But show me any objective source or data showing that a border wall stretching across the entire border would be more effective than monitoring/patrolling the natural barriers that we already have: river, desert, mountains, empty roadless spaces, etc.  A continuous wall is useless without monitoring, which we already do.  The wall is a symbol, a propaganda tool. 

You acknowledge that we could do a better job with e-verification, etc., along with deterrents and penalties for those who enable and employ immigrants who are here illegally.  But there is no political will by the GOP or the Democrats to do that, because non-voting immigrants who are here illegally allow agriculture to flourish, provide cheap labor (as well as highly skilled services in many cases), enrich businesses and add to the national GDP.  They give a lot more than they take, and business class likes it that way.  Don't go for the head fake.  (Trump's hotels employ illegal immigrants and has his MAGA hats are made in China -- watch what he does, not what he says).

When a person chooses one of the most wasteful, least effective ways to solve a "problem," it is their way of telling you that they do not want to solve the "problem."  Trump and the GOP are willing to shut down the government over the "wall" because it was an effective campaign symbol, propaganda tool and dog whistle to racists and xenophobes, as well as others who make up the GOP base. 

I appreciate that DreamFire is willing to discuss this, because echo chambers are annoying.  He is correct that there are other ways to address illegal immigration, but the business class will not sacrifice that cash cow until there is a suitable substitute, e.g., prison labor, off shore and overseas labor, robots, or a disempowered, low wage underclass. 


DreamFIRE

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Peachtea

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #224 on: January 08, 2019, 03:54:09 PM »
Military here and the shutdown doesn't seem to affect us. PT is at 0430. Don't be late.
The VA hospitals seem to be fully functioning as well and monthly benefits are still being paid to Vets with disabilities. Not sure how long that will last in an extended shutdown but since the VA is front funded for each year it won't likely be affected.

Itís a partial gov shutdown, because several agencies were previously funded for the year in separate bills. Only the agencies in the last bill that includes DHS are shutdown. (But itís still a good chunk of agencies and employees affected.) So DoD, VA, SSA, DOL and some others are fully funded for the year. They wonít have any problems until end of next September when the 2020 FY showdown happens.
That's what I figured. I wonder if that means VA employees are getting pay checks though or just that VA services are funded and benefits for vets continue?

Also is the shutdown something that will effect ACA subsidies? I'm not on the ACA but it seems I read somewhere they would also be continued to be paid during the shutdown.

Any of the agencies who are funded already, DoD, VA etc., their employees are getting paid. This is one of the reasons the idea of a shutdown lasting months isnít getting the same bipartisan outcry it normally would. Nobody would support the military going unpaid for months at a time.

I think, but am not 100% sure, that ACA subsidies are fine, because HHS who runs that program was in the same appropriations bill as VA (I think). However, I read something about ďmostĒ of HHS being funded back in September. I donít know what parts of HHS didnít get funded...but it seems weird to only fund part of an agency.

SNAP or food stamps is an issue because itís ran by USDA and they are part of the shutdown. Itís all about which agency got their funding in the earlier bills and those that didnít whether they have any non-appropriated funds they can throw at a program to keep it hobbling along until appropriations are passed. Iím surprised we havenít heard more from the prisons. Doesnít make me feel great that the guards at federal prisons are working unpaid right now. And food inspectors...

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #225 on: January 08, 2019, 04:02:08 PM »
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls, like that's such a great comparison. Israel is constantly getting bombarded with rocket attacks and under threat of annihilation from enemies. I don't think America is a place like that. And I don't want to live in a place where I'm surrounded with walls like I'm living in a prison. This is MY country. My ancestors built this place. And they are rolling over in their graves with this kind of talk.

Nickel

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #226 on: January 08, 2019, 04:15:08 PM »

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." – Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

DreamFIRE:  Why do you ignore what others are saying?  You are having a conversation with yourself.     

Border walls do work. So do land mines and border patrol agents.  So why not place land mines and border agents everywhere instead of building a wall?  Cost/risk v. benefit.  That is the same reason we don't build walls everywhere (hello Canada). If you think a wall is a one-time expense with no ongoing patrol/maintenance expenses, then I have a boat I'd like to sell you.

You are being conned.  Trump is a master, and knows this well: It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled.  The wall is a symbol, not a solution.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 04:17:04 PM by Nickel »

Nickel

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #227 on: January 08, 2019, 04:30:15 PM »
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls, like that's such a great comparison. Israel is constantly getting bombarded with rocket attacks and under threat of annihilation from enemies. I don't think America is a place like that. And I don't want to live in a place where I'm surrounded with walls like I'm living in a prison. This is MY country. My ancestors built this place. And they are rolling over in their graves with this kind of talk.

Good point.  Also, Israel has walls on some parts of its border, just like we do.  And Israel has no walls on other parts of its border, just like we do.  You don't use the same tool for every job, so why use a wrench to pound a nail when you've got a hammer in your hand? 

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #228 on: January 08, 2019, 07:51:40 PM »
I watched his primetime speech and the democratic response tonight, and was underwhelmed.

Trump made the same familiar arguments he made during the campaign, that immigrants are scary and Americans should be fearful, and he tried to blame democrats for the inability of the 100% republican controlled congress to pass a budget bill that wasted billions of dollars on a useless wall.  He tried to blame democrats, who weren't even in power when the shutdown started, saying they want open borders.

Schumer and Pelosi were on a few minutes later, and made the same arguments they have previously made, that they too want border security but that the wall is a waste of money, that they still support the existing bipartisan budget that includes border security funding but not a separate dollar amount for funding a wall, and that Trump asked for the shutdown, claimed ownership of the shutdown, then backtracked on his promise to let congress pass a budget in order to force a shutdown. 

So basically, nothing new.  Trump pitches fear of brown people "invading" our country and somehow tries to turn that into the moral high ground, democrats say he's trying to leverage the well being of federal employees, many of them veterans, to fulfill the fever dream wishes of a hardline nationalist minority.  Trump says this is about justice, democrats say this is about responsible government.  Trump says he won't budge off his demand for billions for a wall and will keep the shutdown going until he gets his way, democrats say they won't budge on the wall funding but they want to re-open the government while congress pursues immigration reform that actually works.

It was a total let down, IMO.  No one budged, no new information was offered that I can see.  I'll be shocked if there are any breakthroughs in the next few days as a result of this.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 08:47:01 PM by sol »

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #229 on: January 08, 2019, 08:06:36 PM »
There was a reason most of the networks weren't even gonna air the speech or the response until folks stirred up rumors it was going to be a declaration of a national emergency. Nothing to see here.

If I'm reading the federal payroll right, this Friday should be the first time folks would have gotten a direct deposit and won't get anything, correct? Or was the Dec 28th payday skipped already even though many of the days people would have been getting paid for on the 28th were worked before the shutdown happened?

I know most on this board will be able to absorb the missed check as an annoyance rather than a disaster, but I still hope all of you who are effected as doing okay.

TomTX

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #230 on: January 08, 2019, 08:11:53 PM »
I'm not angry, but the pensions for federal workers under the older overly generous over-promised pension system should be cut along with some of the other governent fat.

Good to know that you promote lying to workers and deliberately screwing them over later by violating agreements, like the President does.

How vile.

sol

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #231 on: January 08, 2019, 08:27:38 PM »
If I'm reading the federal payroll right, this Friday should be the first time folks would have gotten a direct deposit and won't get anything, correct?

Different agencies pay on different schedules.  It's not like all federal employees get paid on Fridays or anything. 

But in general, yes this week and next are the damage landing.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #232 on: January 08, 2019, 08:31:57 PM »
I parsed the RSS feed from 538's podcast to find all the emergency podcasts they've done since Trump's election.

Quote
Emergency Podcast: Mattis Is Out, Shutdown Is On (?)
Emergency Podcast: Cohen Is Cooperating With Mueller
Emergency Podcast: Sessions Is Out
Emergency Podcast: Manafort Is Cooperating
Emergency Podcast: Cohen + Manafort = !!!
Emergency Podcast: Kennedy Is Retiring
Emergency Podcast: The Inspector General's Report
Emergency Podcast: Ryan To Retire
Emergency Podcast: FBI Raids Trump's Lawyer's Office
Emergency Podcast: Rexit
Emergency Podcast: 13 Russians Indicted
Emergency Podcast - Government Shutdown
Emergency Podcast: Doug Jones Wins
Emergency Podcast: Flynn Flips
Emergency Podcast - Flake Is Out
Emergency Podcast: McCain Is A No
Emergency Podcast - Bannon Out
Emergency Podcast - Senate Repeal Fails
Emergency Podcast - Don Jr.'s Emails
Emergency Podcast - Georgia And South Carolina Specials
Emergency Podcast - Hung Parliament
Emergency Podcast - Comey's Testimony
Emergency Podcast - Comey's Prepared Testimony
Emergency Podcast - The Comey Memo
Emergency Podcast: Trump Fires Comey
Emergency Podcast: This Russia Stuff
Emergency Podcast: The SCOTUS Battle Ahead

They're not doing one for this speech. Nothingburger sounds about right.

sixwings

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #233 on: January 08, 2019, 08:36:54 PM »

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." Ė Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

I'm just curious... what parts of the border do you think don't have barriers up? Like... what do you think this is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier

Is the idea here to tear these down and replace them with... apparently the same thing?

SnackDog

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #234 on: January 08, 2019, 08:45:52 PM »
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls...

I vaguely recall a large wall somewhere in Asia as well.  Walls are a historic and primitive solution to keeping people out.  Everyone can understand a wall. It's a far simpler campaign concept to convey than a mesh of drones and agents and seismic detectors and infrared and whatnot. Trump promised a wall to his supporters and now he's trying to keep his promise.  He's going to be difficult on this I think.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #235 on: January 08, 2019, 09:58:09 PM »

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." Ė Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

I'm just curious... what parts of the border do you think don't have barriers up? Like... what do you think this is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier

Is the idea here to tear these down and replace them with... apparently the same thing?

Outside of urban areas the border is often just vehicle barriers only or a couple of strands of barbed wire fence like you'd see on a ranch. I don't recall the exact numbers but out of ~2,000 miles I think there's an actual wall/fence along only about 500 miles.

I did some training at Fort Huachuca in southern Arizona a few years ago. It's less than 10 miles from the border to the base boundary and the area in between is a nature preserve. While on the land navigation course we found evidence of illegal immigrants (discarded clothing, water bottles, medicines with spanish labels, etc.). This base is the HQ for Military Intelligence and contains lots of classified space but they can't keep people from just walking over the border and through the base. Incidentally there was a large aerostat (tethered balloon) that was anchored on the base and contained cameras for the Border Patrol. They also flew UAVs out of there for training, though I don't think they were for Border Patrol usage - just training for operators.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #236 on: January 08, 2019, 11:19:35 PM »
Trump's disciples keep pointing out that Israel has border walls...

I vaguely recall a large wall somewhere in Asia as well.  Walls are a historic and primitive solution to keeping people out.  Everyone can understand a wall. It's a far simpler campaign concept to convey than a mesh of drones and agents and seismic detectors and infrared and whatnot. Trump promised a wall to his supporters and now he's trying to keep his promise.  He's going to be difficult on this I think.

Um.... the Great Wall of China????

Barbaebigode

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #237 on: January 09, 2019, 04:07:27 AM »
Elections have consequences. If the elected congress and senate won't fund your wall, then you don't get a wall. Not getting your shit passed if you don't have the votes used to be normal. But I guess Trump knows this. Suddenly everybody is talking about the last outrageous thing and not about all the criminal activities linked to the president, his family and associates.

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #238 on: January 09, 2019, 05:05:38 AM »
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over. 

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #239 on: January 09, 2019, 05:37:17 AM »
In the shut down horror side of things.  The micro brewing industry is big in my town.  Apparently new beer labels will not be approved until the shutdown is over.

Well now weíve finally found something worse than people getting paid: no new hipster beer! The Horror, the Horror.

Unique User

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #240 on: January 09, 2019, 07:02:35 AM »

The pro-open borders pro-amnesty group on the left doesn't like to hear the facts.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

https://townhall.com/columnists/jeffcrouere/2018/12/01/build-the-border-wall-or-say-goodbye-to-america-n2536828

https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/02/border-patrol-dhs-trump-wall-steel-fence/

https://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/border-wall-pay-for-itself-cutting-welfare-illegal-immigrants/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/border-walls-work/

EX-OBAMA OFFICIAL SUPPORTS TRUMP'S WALL - "I cannot think of a legitimate argument why anyone would not support the wall as part of a multi-layered border security issue." Ė Mark Morgan, former chief of U.S. Border Patrol under President Obama,

Perhaps, but all those articles are from far right publications/websites.  I mean, come on, the Daily Caller?  Tucker's website is pure propaganda.  And one of your reasons for a wall is that it would stop the flow of drugs, however, the DEA does not agree.  The vast majority of drugs coming into the US would not be affected in any way by a wall.  I'd be more inclined to trust the DEA than a Daily Caller "journalist". 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/29/trump-says-border-wall-will-stop-drugs-heres-what-a-dea-intel-report-says/

I am personally not interested in paying $5B for a wall out of taxpayer money.  I've lived near the border and my family has lived in the San Diego/Southern California area for decades.  I've lived in Southwest resort and ranching areas that can't survive without immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  The way to fix this mess?  Increase legal immigration to the levels that America needs, make e-verify mandatory and establish punitive fines against business owners and companies and their leadership that break the law.  You blatantly break the law like Trump's staff giving out fake green cards to illegal immigrants, you don't just pay punitive fines, you go to jail. 

I notice none of the far right figures or websites pushing ideas like that for one reason - they NEED illegal immigrants and the wall in order to whip up the base.  Without being able to stoke fear about brown people coming over the border, what would they have? 

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #241 on: January 09, 2019, 02:35:05 PM »
Seems we're just yelling at each other about a wall right now, but I just came to this thread and thought I'd share some of my personal shutdown stories

For context I work at a private research lab that gets much of its funding through open federal grants and has a lot of partnerships with NOAA, the DoE and NASA.

Recently we had to cancel an expedition to the southern ocean (off Antarctica, for the geographically challenged) because it was on a NOAA research vessel and funded through a grant from the National Science Foundation (NSF).  The expedition was 2 years of planning and most of the equipment had already been shipped freight to ARgentina (the port of debarkation).  Nine US scientists will not be getting on a plane this week to take their non-refundable, multi-leg journey to meet the boat in South America.  Thousands of kg worth of equipment will need to be shipped back to the US or staged in warehouses until a new cruise can be planned years from now.  We will not learn anything this austral-summer about the effects of retreating sea-ice on plankton and the food web (keep in mind that the southern ocean is one of the most productive and poorly studied regions on the planet). Later this season the NOAA ship will make its ~8,000 mile journey back to the northern hemisphere having accomplished nothing this season.

In similar news, other NOAA vessels throughout the world are tied up to docks, costing us taxpayers lots of money but not accomplishing anything. Fishing permits are not being issued The winter crab season is upon us and at least some of the fleet can't go out due to unresolved permitting issues. Of the ones that are out fishing there are no on-board monitors to ensure rules are being followed adn to take stock assessments. Next year when it comes time to set quotas there won't be much good data to base these decisions on.

wenchsenior

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #242 on: January 09, 2019, 02:54:10 PM »
Seems we're just yelling at each other about a wall right now, but I just came to this thread and thought I'd share some of my personal shutdown stories

For context I work at a private research lab that gets much of its funding through open federal grants and has a lot of partnerships with NOAA, the DoE and NASA.

Recently we had to cancel an expedition to the southern ocean (off Antarctica, for the geographically challenged) because it was on a NOAA research vessel and funded through a grant from the National Science Foundation (NSF).  The expedition was 2 years of planning and most of the equipment had already been shipped freight to ARgentina (the port of debarkation).  Nine US scientists will not be getting on a plane this week to take their non-refundable, multi-leg journey to meet the boat in South America.  Thousands of kg worth of equipment will need to be shipped back to the US or staged in warehouses until a new cruise can be planned years from now.  We will not learn anything this austral-summer about the effects of retreating sea-ice on plankton and the food web (keep in mind that the southern ocean is one of the most productive and poorly studied regions on the planet). Later this season the NOAA ship will make its ~8,000 mile journey back to the northern hemisphere having accomplished nothing this season.

In similar news, other NOAA vessels throughout the world are tied up to docks, costing us taxpayers lots of money but not accomplishing anything. Fishing permits are not being issued The winter crab season is upon us and at least some of the fleet can't go out due to unresolved permitting issues. Of the ones that are out fishing there are no on-board monitors to ensure rules are being followed adn to take stock assessments. Next year when it comes time to set quotas there won't be much good data to base these decisions on.

That shit is so infuriating.  DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed. All of the non-federal cooperators and funders are affected every time this happens.  During the Oct shutdown a few years ago, he was unable to travel to one of his international field sites to collect data as part of an ongoing monitoring project (more than a decade). I was able to go, but could not collect most of the data solo (it requires 2-3 people per team). Meanwhile the field site/food/etc were being subsidized by a private party.  So 3 weeks' worth of money, time, and space was wasted and we lost a year of data.

We are fortunate this year that this isn't occurring during (our) field season.  As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

I am so angry on your behalf. I can only imagine your frustration.

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #243 on: January 09, 2019, 03:00:41 PM »
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #244 on: January 09, 2019, 03:21:01 PM »
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.

you want absurd?  I'm serving as an informal advisor to one student who's primary advisor is with the USGS (US Geological Survey).  He's a very 'follow the rules' kind of guy'.  Anyhow, he's not allowed to meet with her about her research project (which she most complete in the next few weeks if she has any hope of presenting it by April), yet I was told under no circumstances can I change/alter/modify anything because it was ultimately a project under his lab.  Telling a student s/he can't make changes as teh experiment progresses is a bit like saying you can't make adjustments to road conditions and other drivers when traveling on the freeway - you will inevitably crash and likely wind up in a ditch somewhere.  But I don't have the authority to make changes, the student doesn't have the experience, and he isn't allowed to even communicate (not even by email).

Sailor Sam

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #245 on: January 09, 2019, 03:47:17 PM »
What's a world for a mental state that has traveled through discouragement, through resignation, through rage, and into a new zone of pure unadulterated {something}. We need a word for beyond rage.

Mechanisms that were able to coast through the holidays are increasingly going off the rails. I can't really give specifics due to OPSEC and non-disclosures. I'm not legally allowed to use contemptuous worlds towards the president of the United States. Nor can I just get drunk, since I'm currently legally responsible, on a 24/7 basis, for ~$200 million in government assets and a couple dozen lives. Legally, I'm not even allowed to quit.

People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #246 on: January 09, 2019, 03:49:22 PM »
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.

you want absurd?  I'm serving as an informal advisor to one student who's primary advisor is with the USGS (US Geological Survey).  He's a very 'follow the rules' kind of guy'.  Anyhow, he's not allowed to meet with her about her research project (which she most complete in the next few weeks if she has any hope of presenting it by April), yet I was told under no circumstances can I change/alter/modify anything because it was ultimately a project under his lab.  Telling a student s/he can't make changes as teh experiment progresses is a bit like saying you can't make adjustments to road conditions and other drivers when traveling on the freeway - you will inevitably crash and likely wind up in a ditch somewhere.  But I don't have the authority to make changes, the student doesn't have the experience, and he isn't allowed to even communicate (not even by email).

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect. 

maizeman

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #247 on: January 09, 2019, 03:50:49 PM »
People come to my office to cry, worried for the financial security of their children, and the only solution I can offer is to take on debt. Legally, they are not allowed to quit.

I hadn't realized there were people who were both not getting paid AND legally barred from quitting and finding another job instead. This needs to be publicized more. I think it would hit an awful lot of people in a way the existing human interest reporting hasn't managed to.

I know it do to me.

wenchsenior

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #248 on: January 09, 2019, 03:53:01 PM »
DH is also a research scientist (federal) whose funding is frequently provided by the private sector or state agencies and he regularly cooperates with other state, private, and federal scientists and staff; he also supervises grad students, so their work and schedule is disrupted when he is furloughed.  ... As it is, he has to request nonofficial 'work meetings' with colleagues off campus (b/c he isn't allowed to go to his office), and is meeting students off campus as well.  His students can't currently travel using their project vehicles (federally funded), but so far only one has to go into the field this month, so that student is coming to our house to borrow our personal vehicle.  And all of this crap is harder to organize b/c DH is forbidden from using work email to communicate.

There is a whole lot to be angry, frustrated about, but I wanted to chime in that I'm seeing this impact on students across my university and across my field as well. Lots of grad students are mentored and funded by federal scientists with adjunct appointments at universities and now, if people were playing 100% by the rules, they're not even allowed to e-mail or meet with their advisor about questions. Thesis research projects being crippled, difficult or impossible to replace samples are being lost because no one is allowed into the lab to maintain them.

Big conference next week where the students are likely still going to attend, many of them going to their first conference ever, but they won't without their advisors there for them.

you want absurd?  I'm serving as an informal advisor to one student who's primary advisor is with the USGS (US Geological Survey).  He's a very 'follow the rules' kind of guy'.  Anyhow, he's not allowed to meet with her about her research project (which she most complete in the next few weeks if she has any hope of presenting it by April), yet I was told under no circumstances can I change/alter/modify anything because it was ultimately a project under his lab.  Telling a student s/he can't make changes as teh experiment progresses is a bit like saying you can't make adjustments to road conditions and other drivers when traveling on the freeway - you will inevitably crash and likely wind up in a ditch somewhere.  But I don't have the authority to make changes, the student doesn't have the experience, and he isn't allowed to even communicate (not even by email).

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Oh, I know.  Fuck them.

nereo

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Re: Fed employees - shutdown stories
« Reply #249 on: January 09, 2019, 04:01:15 PM »

Unfortunately all your stories are exactly what Republicans/Trump supporters are happy to see go unfunded.  All this liberal, pointy-headed science is highly suspect.

Liberal point-headed science? I don't think you understand what federal scientists do. Much of it are things that are required by laws passed by congress.