Author Topic: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?  (Read 36766 times)

lexie2000

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #100 on: March 11, 2014, 09:38:47 AM »

Quote

Occasionally, we'll go to the donut shop and pick up a couple of donuts or pastries to take home as a treat, but it's very rare.  This would be something that we're more likely to do when we're taking a road trip.

Exactly the point I was making, people who are very frugal tend to be very careful with impulse purchases, that's how you live on such a small amount

Yes and no. I personally know that I do "waste" some money on things like this, but they bring me enjoyment. This whole site/concept boils down to conscious spending. To me that means, spend when/where/what you want but understand the tradeoffs. So yes, a few times per month I will buy a coffee and pastry or go out for brunch but I ride my bike there, have a paid for house, and still live on <20K per year. It's really amazing that with car and housing expenses low, it feels like I want for nothing and still don't spend much money.

Isn't conscious spending (regardless of the purchase) and being careful with impulse purchases the same thing? 

I completely agree with the concept of "understanding the tradeoffs".  We are extremely conscious of how we spend money so I consider us to be mustachian even though some of our choices definitely do not line up with the "typical" mustachian lifestyle (primarily our home and neighborhood).

nicknageli

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #101 on: March 11, 2014, 09:52:56 AM »
Yes and no. I personally know that I do "waste" some money on things like this, but they bring me enjoyment. This whole site/concept boils down to conscious spending. To me that means, spend when/where/what you want but understand the tradeoffs.

I agree.  And more people need to be able to distinguish true needs from just wants. 

arebelspy

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2014, 10:03:54 AM »
posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong

Why?  Are you happy with your spending in that area?  Do you need to compare yourself to someone else?
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jordanread

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #103 on: March 11, 2014, 11:45:06 AM »
Don't let yourself say "there's no way I could live on that". Not without an honest reassessment.

And if you really can't see how to reduce, that's where case studies come in.

This. Even when I am completely blown away by someone's budget, I look at it from a learning standpoint. Not necessarily to compare, but see if maybe there is something that I could be doing that I hadn't thought of (like making my own laundry detergent). So even if someone does fudge their numbers ... *ahem*
I am secretly a crazy spendypants.  I just pretend I live frugally because I desperately crave positive affirmation from strangers on the internet.
...I still get value from it, just based on my approach. And that helps get over the comparison issues:
Why?  Are you happy with your spending in that area?  Do you need to compare yourself to someone else?


[...] my paycheck goes into gnucash as gross and I put all my various expenses in as expenses.  [...]

I do the same thing. I used to record just the net income, but it was pretty enlightening when I started adding everything from my paycheck (including taxes, HSA and 401(k) contributions, etc). I put my gross paycheck as income, and split the transaction. The reports I generated shined a crazy light on where some additional money was going (fucking taxes...higher than I thought). I highly suggest GnuCash for this part of it.

I've been going over why my wife and I struggle to save. It seems each month inspite of my best efforts that our bank account falls to zero. I finally realized [...] much of it is small seemingly insignificant choices.

I've been there. I had a thought that it would be nice to have an alert from mint when I spend under $20 in a single transaction, because I've always been pretty good at researching large purchases, but the little things get me.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2014, 12:21:27 PM »
posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong

Why?  Are you happy with your spending in that area?  Do you need to compare yourself to someone else?

hmm. I am trying to think of the best way to describe how I feel... like I said before,

I know I'll never get down to the bare minimum of food spending (for example) because we both enjoy cooking (I find it entertaining and a good way to de-stress after work so I am never going to be satisfied eating beans and rice every day... although I do love beans and rice) and like variety in our diets.

so no, I don't flatly compare the amount that I spend to what others spend. but to me the great thing about the MMM philosophy (or at least my interpretation of it) is that the point is not to deprive yourself, it's to not spend money you don't have to, i.e. live equally well on less money. if someone else is spending WAY less money than me in a category and says they are purchasing luxurious items that I do not purchase, and not really paying attention to keeping their spending down in that category (whereas I feel like I am putting a lot of effort into reducing this spending), I feel like there is something glaringly different between what we're doing and I clearly need to find out what it is so I don't waste an extra $100/month on groceries if I don't have to! I mean, maybe we just eat a lot?! but I just want to figure out WHAT the issue is so I know that I've really optimized and I'm not missing a great opportunity.

Carrie

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2014, 12:42:51 PM »
I've seen a couple of budgets here and there that make me wonder how they do it.  Especially regarding medical spending.  Our medical costs aren't terribly high, but we do have to pay a good bit OOP for dental, and occasionally have copays and prescriptions to budget for.  2x yearly dental x everyone in the family = pretty large budget expense.
Also utility bills get me.  I think we could do better (I am having a hard time convincing everyone in our family to be as nit-picky about usage as I am), but we have minimums we have to pay on trash/sewer/water (all one bill), so even if we get our consumption way down, we'll still have a $35+ monthly bill.  Same with natural gas - minimum monthly bill can never get lower than $15 (we stay at the minimum most months from late spring through early fall).  I expect electricity to go down when we lose a family member to college (found out she runs a space heater when her room isn't a toasty 80deg --- OUCH!!!, and DANGEROUS!!!)

I really enjoy seeing these budgets, though, gives me ideas of where we can possibly cut and where we're doing great.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2014, 01:06:46 PM »
I don't doubt people, but sometimes posts DO make me feel like I'm completely losing my mind. My boyfriend and I spend >$350/month for two people. We DO meal plan. We don't EVER shop at "Whole Paycheck" or the equivalent. I am not religious about planning meals around sales but I do it fairly often. I freeze TONS of shit so our food waste is minimal. I buy the $1.99/lb sketchy chicken breasts at Walmart even though I feel horrible about it. I have a pretty good sense of which things are cheaper at local grocery chain vs. Walmart vs. farmers market and I try to plan around that (this is about to get better because I started a price book last month). We buy very little processed/packaged food (almost never buy ice cream). We DON'T live in a high COL area (Oklahoma for fuck's sake!) WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING WRONG?!?! AHHH IT'S JUST MADDENING

Ahem. Sorry. Are you guys vegetarians? Because I guess that might help... but yeah, I don't think people lie, but sometimes people's spending is extremely confusing to me and makes me feel really frustrated with myself. I know I'll never get down to the bare minimum of food spending (for example) because we both enjoy cooking (I find it entertaining and a good way to de-stress after work so I am never going to be satisfied eating beans and rice every day... although I do love beans and rice) and like variety in our diets. But posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong YET HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS... which is frustrating.

There's a thread about tracking how much of your grocery budget you spend on what items, to help identify problems areas. I've been keeping a spreadsheet of all my grocery spending this month*. So far, animal protein (eggs and meat) has been our biggest expense at 16%.  Next is grooming products at 13% (big sale on deodorant) and baking ingredients at 12% (which helped keep our bread expense to 3%). I was surprised to see how much I've spent on disposables (plastic baggies, mostly) so I'm going to see what I can do about that. You get the idea. Maybe it would be helpful to try it?

* Our budget is $500, for a family of 5.

dragoncar

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2014, 01:10:26 PM »
A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

Why? My boyfriend and I average $115/month, and that's with a LOT of luxuries - soy ice cream, big bags of nuts, and a ton of expensive baking supplies. We also do very little meal-planning (just starting this month), don't really plan around sales, are constantly buying things at the expensive grocery store across the street due to poor planning, etc. I imagine our totals would tighten up A LOT, quite possibly down to around that amount, if we put in a serious effort.

115/mo total?  Or each?

Sorry, per person - $230/total.

I don't doubt people, but sometimes posts DO make me feel like I'm completely losing my mind. My boyfriend and I spend >$350/month for two people. We DO meal plan. We don't EVER shop at "Whole Paycheck" or the equivalent. I am not religious about planning meals around sales but I do it fairly often. I freeze TONS of shit so our food waste is minimal. I buy the $1.99/lb sketchy chicken breasts at Walmart even though I feel horrible about it. I have a pretty good sense of which things are cheaper at local grocery chain vs. Walmart vs. farmers market and I try to plan around that (this is about to get better because I started a price book last month). We buy very little processed/packaged food (almost never buy ice cream). We DON'T live in a high COL area (Oklahoma for fuck's sake!) WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING WRONG?!?! AHHH IT'S JUST MADDENING

Ahem. Sorry. Are you guys vegetarians? Because I guess that might help... but yeah, I don't think people lie, but sometimes people's spending is extremely confusing to me and makes me feel really frustrated with myself. I know I'll never get down to the bare minimum of food spending (for example) because we both enjoy cooking (I find it entertaining and a good way to de-stress after work so I am never going to be satisfied eating beans and rice every day... although I do love beans and rice) and like variety in our diets. But posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong YET HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS... which is frustrating.

I'm curious too... Why don't you post some receipts (or the info from them)?

For reference, you could eat 3 lbs of chicken breast per person per day for that expenditure rate.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 01:13:23 PM by dragoncar »

rocksinmyhead

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2014, 01:48:35 PM »
yeah, I've been tracking our spending item by item since the beginning of February. the original goal was a price book, but since that thread got started I'm in on that too :) I am very curious to see the results and I'm sure I'll post a case study about it since this is an issue that's been driving me nuts since I started reading this forum!

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2014, 02:08:20 PM »
A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

Why? My boyfriend and I average $115/month, and that's with a LOT of luxuries - soy ice cream, big bags of nuts, and a ton of expensive baking supplies. We also do very little meal-planning (just starting this month), don't really plan around sales, are constantly buying things at the expensive grocery store across the street due to poor planning, etc. I imagine our totals would tighten up A LOT, quite possibly down to around that amount, if we put in a serious effort.

115/mo total?  Or each?

Sorry, per person - $230/total.

I don't doubt people, but sometimes posts DO make me feel like I'm completely losing my mind. My boyfriend and I spend >$350/month for two people. We DO meal plan. We don't EVER shop at "Whole Paycheck" or the equivalent. I am not religious about planning meals around sales but I do it fairly often. I freeze TONS of shit so our food waste is minimal. I buy the $1.99/lb sketchy chicken breasts at Walmart even though I feel horrible about it. I have a pretty good sense of which things are cheaper at local grocery chain vs. Walmart vs. farmers market and I try to plan around that (this is about to get better because I started a price book last month). We buy very little processed/packaged food (almost never buy ice cream). We DON'T live in a high COL area (Oklahoma for fuck's sake!) WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING WRONG?!?! AHHH IT'S JUST MADDENING

Ahem. Sorry. Are you guys vegetarians? Because I guess that might help... but yeah, I don't think people lie, but sometimes people's spending is extremely confusing to me and makes me feel really frustrated with myself. I know I'll never get down to the bare minimum of food spending (for example) because we both enjoy cooking (I find it entertaining and a good way to de-stress after work so I am never going to be satisfied eating beans and rice every day... although I do love beans and rice) and like variety in our diets. But posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong YET HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS... which is frustrating.

I started a Monthly Grocery Tracking and Categorizing challenge for the March here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/track-and-categorize-grocery-spending-all-march!/ and it seems to be REALLY popular (I didn't think anyone would join me actually). You should try it out for the month! Personally, I'm posting updates once a week with everything we buy, how much we spend, the breakdown by category, and all our meals for the week. I've seen similar posts from other people who spend the same amount as us but have totally different diets, which gives some different perspectives.

We're vegans, but I imagine we don't save much by not eating meat since we're super disorganized and average 30+ grocery transactions a month (working on it), and we buy a lot of luxury stuff.

marblejane

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2014, 02:24:22 PM »

I don't doubt people, but sometimes posts DO make me feel like I'm completely losing my mind. My boyfriend and I spend >$350/month for two people. We DO meal plan. We don't EVER shop at "Whole Paycheck" or the equivalent. I am not religious about planning meals around sales but I do it fairly often. I freeze TONS of shit so our food waste is minimal. I buy the $1.99/lb sketchy chicken breasts at Walmart even though I feel horrible about it. I have a pretty good sense of which things are cheaper at local grocery chain vs. Walmart vs. farmers market and I try to plan around that (this is about to get better because I started a price book last month). We buy very little processed/packaged food (almost never buy ice cream). We DON'T live in a high COL area (Oklahoma for fuck's sake!) WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING WRONG?!?! AHHH IT'S JUST MADDENING

Ahem. Sorry. Are you guys vegetarians? Because I guess that might help... but yeah, I don't think people lie, but sometimes people's spending is extremely confusing to me and makes me feel really frustrated with myself. I know I'll never get down to the bare minimum of food spending (for example) because we both enjoy cooking (I find it entertaining and a good way to de-stress after work so I am never going to be satisfied eating beans and rice every day... although I do love beans and rice) and like variety in our diets. But posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong YET HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS... which is frustrating.

If it makes you feel better, the only way that I've successfully gotten my grocery spending to $100/mo is to eat vegetarian. Mainly oatmeal for breakfast, beans and rice for lunch, and eggs for dinner, with liberal amounts of cheese throughout. (And low cost fruits and veggies like apples & carrots).

rocksinmyhead

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2014, 02:28:35 PM »
A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

Why? My boyfriend and I average $115/month, and that's with a LOT of luxuries - soy ice cream, big bags of nuts, and a ton of expensive baking supplies. We also do very little meal-planning (just starting this month), don't really plan around sales, are constantly buying things at the expensive grocery store across the street due to poor planning, etc. I imagine our totals would tighten up A LOT, quite possibly down to around that amount, if we put in a serious effort.

115/mo total?  Or each?

Sorry, per person - $230/total.

I don't doubt people, but sometimes posts DO make me feel like I'm completely losing my mind. My boyfriend and I spend >$350/month for two people. We DO meal plan. We don't EVER shop at "Whole Paycheck" or the equivalent. I am not religious about planning meals around sales but I do it fairly often. I freeze TONS of shit so our food waste is minimal. I buy the $1.99/lb sketchy chicken breasts at Walmart even though I feel horrible about it. I have a pretty good sense of which things are cheaper at local grocery chain vs. Walmart vs. farmers market and I try to plan around that (this is about to get better because I started a price book last month). We buy very little processed/packaged food (almost never buy ice cream). We DON'T live in a high COL area (Oklahoma for fuck's sake!) WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING WRONG?!?! AHHH IT'S JUST MADDENING

Ahem. Sorry. Are you guys vegetarians? Because I guess that might help... but yeah, I don't think people lie, but sometimes people's spending is extremely confusing to me and makes me feel really frustrated with myself. I know I'll never get down to the bare minimum of food spending (for example) because we both enjoy cooking (I find it entertaining and a good way to de-stress after work so I am never going to be satisfied eating beans and rice every day... although I do love beans and rice) and like variety in our diets. But posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong YET HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS... which is frustrating.

I started a Monthly Grocery Tracking and Categorizing challenge for the March here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/track-and-categorize-grocery-spending-all-march!/ and it seems to be REALLY popular (I didn't think anyone would join me actually). You should try it out for the month! Personally, I'm posting updates once a week with everything we buy, how much we spend, the breakdown by category, and all our meals for the week. I've seen similar posts from other people who spend the same amount as us but have totally different diets, which gives some different perspectives.

We're vegans, but I imagine we don't save much by not eating meat since we're super disorganized and average 30+ grocery transactions a month (working on it), and we buy a lot of luxury stuff.

I know! I know! I'm already there! I had actually just started tracking of my own accord two weeks earlier! haha. thanks for starting the thread, though. looking forward to gaining some insight :)

Gray Matter

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2014, 02:45:03 PM »
Even then, it's possible to do some tricky mental accounting, which I realized I was doing.  For example, we saved money for a few years for two big expenses that we knew were going to happen in 2013 (two bathroom gut/remodels and a trip to Africa).  But when I reported my savings rate for 2013, I didn't include those because we had already saved for them and had the money earmarked and sitting there.  I wasn't being intentionally dishonest, but if you do a simple Money In - Money Out for 2013, my numbers look very different than what I reported.

Yeah but were those expenses included in the previous years as expenses or savings? If they were counted as expenses in prior years, then it's just a smoothing and more reflective of your actual expenses over time periods greater than 1 year.

About half of my monthly expenses, which are sent to Vanguard with the savings, are depreciation and future items (car, vacation, remodel, etc.)

Yes, well...this is the "trickery" part.  I wasn't keeping track of my savings rate until 2013.  But in my mental accounting, the savings earmarked for the bathrooms and the trip were not real "savings," so that counts, right?

NumberJohnny5

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2014, 05:46:00 PM »
Next is grooming products at 13% (big sale on deodorant) and baking ingredients at 12% (which helped keep our bread expense to 3%). I was surprised to see how much I've spent on disposables (plastic baggies, mostly) so I'm going to see what I can do about that.

Good point. Perhaps if we're going to doubt people's claims on "only" spending $X on something, we should also doubt that they're actually spending that much.

I.e., groceries. Many people may think that should only include food. Things like tupperware may go in another budget. Hygiene products, also another budget. But for our purposes, virtually anything bought at a grocery store is counted as groceries, whether it's lettuce, toilet paper, shampoo, toothpaste, laundry detergent, diapers, frozen pizza, etc. Bottle of shampoo bought at Aldi's = groceries; bottle of shampoo bought at The Reject Shop (like Big Lots) = not groceries (thought a box of candy bought there, still = groceries).

So...yeah, that $50/wk (or whatever) impossible grocery budget...maybe it's only impossible because they're including TOO MUCH, and the real cost is much lower.

Dicey

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2014, 06:00:14 PM »
No.

A year ago, I saw people's savings rates and I wished they were fake.  How the hell were they doing it?!? 

And then we got started and cut back and cut back again.  We sold stuff and we moved and we optimized again and again.

And yep, now I know how people were reaching those incredible savings rate, because I can do it too.

I see people's numbers and I am inspired.

Hey Ruthiegirl! This post deserves a huge congratulations. I'm know I'm late to the conversation, but your comment is too good to go unremarked upon. I hope you achieve all of your goals.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:31:50 PM by Diane C »

2527

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2014, 06:15:06 PM »
I think the claims are basically accurate.

I grew up at one level of expenditure, and now my family has a different (much higher) one.

My brother, sister and I all live within 15 miles of each other, and we have very different levels of expenditure.

I moved around a lot as an adult, and I can see how the cost of living and the level of expenditure of those around me affected my own expenditures. 

When I was starting as an officer, I thought my salary was a fortune.  Somebody I knew was starting as an officer (with the identical salary), and he was a doctor's son from a prestigious neighborhood in an affluent part of New Jersey, and he thought it was impossible to live on our salary. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 06:35:54 PM by 2527 »

Zikoris

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2014, 07:05:33 PM »
Next is grooming products at 13% (big sale on deodorant) and baking ingredients at 12% (which helped keep our bread expense to 3%). I was surprised to see how much I've spent on disposables (plastic baggies, mostly) so I'm going to see what I can do about that.

Good point. Perhaps if we're going to doubt people's claims on "only" spending $X on something, we should also doubt that they're actually spending that much.

I.e., groceries. Many people may think that should only include food. Things like tupperware may go in another budget. Hygiene products, also another budget. But for our purposes, virtually anything bought at a grocery store is counted as groceries, whether it's lettuce, toilet paper, shampoo, toothpaste, laundry detergent, diapers, frozen pizza, etc. Bottle of shampoo bought at Aldi's = groceries; bottle of shampoo bought at The Reject Shop (like Big Lots) = not groceries (thought a box of candy bought there, still = groceries).

So...yeah, that $50/wk (or whatever) impossible grocery budget...maybe it's only impossible because they're including TOO MUCH, and the real cost is much lower.

It's an interesting idea, and when you think about it I guess we make pretty arbitrary decisions - for myself, "groceries" includes food, plastic wrap/foil, toilet paper, paper towels, kleenex, and any cleaning supplies, but not personal care stuff like shampoo or toothpaste. We started doing it that way initially because we used to split the expenses in a different way for the two categories, and I guess continued because "why not?"

I think some people have mentioned including medicine prescriptions under "groceries" as well.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2014, 09:58:16 PM »
I dont doubt it but I think the way they live is archaic.  If I lived deep in Alaska I could see living on 2k a month for a family of 4, where you could hunt and fish and live off the land.  But around here in city town just to keep the lights on and the garbage and sewer flowing and paying property taxes and buying food rather than hunting it, digs real deep into that sum of money.  But to each his/her own and if they want to "live" like that than more power to them.  I myself plan on a minimum of 60k for yearly retirement income.

dragoncar

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2014, 10:09:19 PM »
Next is grooming products at 13% (big sale on deodorant) and baking ingredients at 12% (which helped keep our bread expense to 3%). I was surprised to see how much I've spent on disposables (plastic baggies, mostly) so I'm going to see what I can do about that.

Good point. Perhaps if we're going to doubt people's claims on "only" spending $X on something, we should also doubt that they're actually spending that much.

I.e., groceries. Many people may think that should only include food. Things like tupperware may go in another budget. Hygiene products, also another budget. But for our purposes, virtually anything bought at a grocery store is counted as groceries, whether it's lettuce, toilet paper, shampoo, toothpaste, laundry detergent, diapers, frozen pizza, etc. Bottle of shampoo bought at Aldi's = groceries; bottle of shampoo bought at The Reject Shop (like Big Lots) = not groceries (thought a box of candy bought there, still = groceries).

So...yeah, that $50/wk (or whatever) impossible grocery budget...maybe it's only impossible because they're including TOO MUCH, and the real cost is much lower.

It's an interesting idea, and when you think about it I guess we make pretty arbitrary decisions - for myself, "groceries" includes food, plastic wrap/foil, toilet paper, paper towels, kleenex, and any cleaning supplies, but not personal care stuff like shampoo or toothpaste. We started doing it that way initially because we used to split the expenses in a different way for the two categories, and I guess continued because "why not?"

I think some people have mentioned including medicine prescriptions under "groceries" as well.

All my dining out is under "groceries" because I get my Applebee's gift cards at Safeway.  I also get my gas there, so most of my transportation expenses are also "groceries".

happy

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2014, 11:38:14 PM »
If you are trying to improve using others as a benchmark, comparing like with like becomes important. On another forum I couldn't work out why my "food" spend was twice some others. Then I realised that I was including other groceries, pharmacy, stationary, dry-cleaning etc. When I just compared food, we were nearly the same.

Melody

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2014, 02:18:55 AM »
When I was starting as an officer, I thought my salary was a fortune.  Somebody I knew was starting as an officer (with the identical salary), and he was a doctor's son from a prestigious neighborhood in an affluent part of New Jersey, and he thought it was impossible to live on our salary.

Great point to think about!

lordrtype1

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2014, 04:36:43 AM »
When I wasn't working, I lived on 17k/ year, for nearly 3 years. I paid my house and utils. and still travelled to CA twice. I didn't have unemployment to draw the whole time-that's just what it averaged to when I had unemployment income. Made about 5k working in those 3 years. Gross. And 3k was the year I didn't have unemployment.  I live off of 18k/yr now living with my parents (yes-I contribute to family expenses!), and that's extravagant for me.  Being poor helps, though.

arebelspy

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2014, 07:24:27 AM »
I dont doubt it but I think the way they live is archaic.  If I lived deep in Alaska I could see living on 2k a month for a family of 4, where you could hunt and fish and live off the land.  But around here in city town just to keep the lights on and the garbage and sewer flowing and paying property taxes and buying food rather than hunting it, digs real deep into that sum of money.  But to each his/her own and if they want to "live" like that than more power to them.  I myself plan on a minimum of 60k for yearly retirement income.

If that's your excuse for not reducing your spending ("ah, they probably just hunt and fish and live off the land and aren't really 'living' ") you're doing yourself a disservice.  Plenty of people here have low expenses and live very luxurious lives.
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kendallf

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2014, 08:48:30 AM »
posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong

Why?  Are you happy with your spending in that area?  Do you need to compare yourself to someone else?

This thread has been interesting to me, not particularly because I'm worried about other people's spending, but because it's made me think about our motivations for change.   You won't see me post up a request for a case study any time soon, even though I know there are loads of areas where we could lower our expenses.  A couple of thoughts:

At this point, many of the remaining "luxury" things we spend money on are conscious.  The remaining things I want to improve are planning and impulse control related, mostly related to food (eating out, drinking soft drinks, that sort of thing). 

Some people are motivated by admitting their faults and having others chide them to improve.  I'm not particularly.  I've never understood why so many people love to go on shows like Jerry Springer and show the world how fucked up they are.  Why?!  :-)

If we're friends and it comes up in conversation, that's fine and I'll try to accept constructive criticism with good grace. 

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2014, 09:04:39 AM »
Yup, ditto.

There are loads of places I could "cut" spending - nowhere that I could improve it, because I'm happy with all of my spending.

The goal is to optimize against yourself, not against someone else.   If your own spending is optimized, who cares if someone else's is lower (for whatever reason)?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2014, 10:15:29 AM »
I dont doubt it but I think the way they live is archaic.  If I lived deep in Alaska I could see living on 2k a month for a family of 4, where you could hunt and fish and live off the land.  But around here in city town just to keep the lights on and the garbage and sewer flowing and paying property taxes and buying food rather than hunting it, digs real deep into that sum of money.  But to each his/her own and if they want to "live" like that than more power to them.  I myself plan on a minimum of 60k for yearly retirement income.

Actually, electricity, gas, water, property taxes (separated out from my mortgage payment) and food come to roughly $430.  That includes really nice food, veggies and fruits in abundance, fish and shrimp, etc, and a 3 bed SFH.  It does just pay for one person in that house, but 3 more wouldn't be 3 times as much.  I'm very comfortable.  What's missing compared to others is a very large home in an expensive city, eating out all the time, and heating and cooling the house to high levels in summer and winter.  It really is the stupid sh*t that kills a person's budget, not the basic stuff. 

avonlea

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2014, 12:00:29 PM »
Yup, ditto.

There are loads of places I could "cut" spending - nowhere that I could improve it, because I'm happy with all of my spending.

The goal is to optimize against yourself, not against someone else.   If your own spending is optimized, who cares if someone else's is lower (for whatever reason)?

Great point, arebelspy.

capital

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #127 on: March 12, 2014, 10:20:34 PM »
I dont doubt it but I think the way they live is archaic.  If I lived deep in Alaska I could see living on 2k a month for a family of 4, where you could hunt and fish and live off the land.  But around here in city town just to keep the lights on and the garbage and sewer flowing and paying property taxes and buying food rather than hunting it, digs real deep into that sum of money.  But to each his/her own and if they want to "live" like that than more power to them.  I myself plan on a minimum of 60k for yearly retirement income.
It may be different where you live, but in my hometown (an inner suburb of Milwaukee, with walkable neighborhoods, mass transit, quality schools, and all services included in property taxes), a lovely if modest house is $170k (4.5% 30 year mortgage at $650/mo., taxes at $350/month). That's $1000/mo. for family housing in a pleasant suburb with all the metropolitan comforts. And if that's too rich for your blood, there are duplexes available for the same price, where it appears from browsing apartment listings that the rental income will pay your mortgage and taxes.

Urban living can be expensive in some places, but it certainly isn't everywhere.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2014, 07:08:52 AM »
I dont doubt it but I think the way they live is archaic.  If I lived deep in Alaska I could see living on 2k a month for a family of 4, where you could hunt and fish and live off the land.  But around here in city town just to keep the lights on and the garbage and sewer flowing and paying property taxes and buying food rather than hunting it, digs real deep into that sum of money.  But to each his/her own and if they want to "live" like that than more power to them.  I myself plan on a minimum of 60k for yearly retirement income.

Actually, electricity, gas, water, property taxes (separated out from my mortgage payment) and food come to roughly $430.  That includes really nice food, veggies and fruits in abundance, fish and shrimp, etc, and a 3 bed SFH.  It does just pay for one person in that house, but 3 more wouldn't be 3 times as much.  I'm very comfortable.  What's missing compared to others is a very large home in an expensive city, eating out all the time, and heating and cooling the house to high levels in summer and winter.  It really is the stupid sh*t that kills a person's budget, not the basic stuff.

Agreed.  And the fact that MMM lives off $25k/year for 3 people in an urban place also shows that it can be done even if you don't count the rest of us who do it.

Do people join the forums without reading the blog?  Not snarky, but a legitimate question.  I'm always amazed when people say "it can't be done" but are posting on this site. 


arebelspy

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2014, 08:07:35 AM »
Agreed.  And the fact that MMM lives off $25k/year for 3 people in an urban place also shows that it can be done even if you don't count the rest of us who do it.

Do people join the forums without reading the blog?  Not snarky, but a legitimate question.  I'm always amazed when people say "it can't be done" but are posting on this site.

MMM's 25k per year doesn't count housing.  With his housing opportunity cost it's more like 50k/year for his spending.  I think OP is more amazed at those who report 20-30k spending with housing included, I doubt they would count 50k with housing as "very little money."  So reading the blog wouldn't give you an example of this, no.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2014, 08:40:42 AM »
I suppose that it comes down (as it usually does) to the reaction one has, being based on where your head is at.
Personally, I get a touch of jealousy when I see something that is beyond belief, then immediately figure out if I can make it work. One of the things I've come to realize is that it's all about conscious spending, and that looks differently to different people.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2014, 10:47:10 AM »
A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

Why? My boyfriend and I average $115/month, and that's with a LOT of luxuries - soy ice cream, big bags of nuts, and a ton of expensive baking supplies. We also do very little meal-planning (just starting this month), don't really plan around sales, are constantly buying things at the expensive grocery store across the street due to poor planning, etc. I imagine our totals would tighten up A LOT, quite possibly down to around that amount, if we put in a serious effort.

115/mo total?  Or each?

Sorry, per person - $230/total.

I don't doubt people, but sometimes posts DO make me feel like I'm completely losing my mind. My boyfriend and I spend >$350/month for two people. We DO meal plan. We don't EVER shop at "Whole Paycheck" or the equivalent. I am not religious about planning meals around sales but I do it fairly often. I freeze TONS of shit so our food waste is minimal. I buy the $1.99/lb sketchy chicken breasts at Walmart even though I feel horrible about it. I have a pretty good sense of which things are cheaper at local grocery chain vs. Walmart vs. farmers market and I try to plan around that (this is about to get better because I started a price book last month). We buy very little processed/packaged food (almost never buy ice cream). We DON'T live in a high COL area (Oklahoma for fuck's sake!) WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING WRONG?!?! AHHH IT'S JUST MADDENING

Ahem. Sorry. Are you guys vegetarians? Because I guess that might help... but yeah, I don't think people lie, but sometimes people's spending is extremely confusing to me and makes me feel really frustrated with myself. I know I'll never get down to the bare minimum of food spending (for example) because we both enjoy cooking (I find it entertaining and a good way to de-stress after work so I am never going to be satisfied eating beans and rice every day... although I do love beans and rice) and like variety in our diets. But posts like this make me feel like I am doing something wrong YET HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS... which is frustrating.

I'm curious too... Why don't you post some receipts (or the info from them)?

For reference, you could eat 3 lbs of chicken breast per person per day for that expenditure rate.

I could see $115/month. But $75? Most of the reason I call BS is because I know she gets taken out for dinner often, which I'm sure is helping her budget.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #132 on: March 13, 2014, 11:23:28 AM »
No.

A year ago, I saw people's savings rates and I wished they were fake.  How the hell were they doing it?!? 

And then we got started and cut back and cut back again.  We sold stuff and we moved and we optimized again and again.

And yep, now I know how people were reaching those incredible savings rate, because I can do it too.

I see people's numbers and I am inspired.

Hey Ruthiegirl! This post deserves a huge congratulations. I'm know I'm late to the conversation, but your comment is too good to go unremarked upon. I hope you achieve all of your goals.

Thanks Diane.  This is really kind of you. 

I am really happy with where we are right now and we are checking off milestones every month.  While my dh will never retire from his job (college prof, he lives the good life), we will live comfortably without wanting for anything.  I feel like I hit the jackpot. 

And I always take inspiration from the boards.  Most people here are adventurous and spirited and I love to see how others challenge themselves.   I see so many places in my life where I can do better, be better.  And I can't wait to get started on my next optimization. 

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #133 on: March 13, 2014, 01:14:20 PM »
Most of the reason I call BS is because I know she gets taken out for dinner often, which I'm sure is helping her budget.

My family (wife & 3 kids) often get taken out for dinner and we don't pay. My in-laws just meet us by doing this. We wouldn't go if they weren't taking us. They just prefer this than inviting us over for dinner because I assume they don't want to cook.

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #134 on: March 13, 2014, 02:10:55 PM »
One thing I love about this forum is that it has helped me to really examine what we spend our $ on and if there are things we could cut that we really don't value.  At this point we have cut everything that we don't value so I am feeling pretty good that we are spending our $ in line with our values.  It is interesting too the value that people place on different things/experiences, etc.  I think it is helping me realize that just because I think it is silly to spend $ on A that does not mean that it does not bring someone else great joy.  Of course all of this is assuming that you don't have "hair on fire" debt!

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #135 on: March 13, 2014, 02:36:47 PM »
One thing I love about this forum is that it has helped me to really examine what we spend our $ on and if there are things we could cut that we really don't value.  At this point we have cut everything that we don't value so I am feeling pretty good that we are spending our $ in line with our values.  It is interesting too the value that people place on different things/experiences, etc.  I think it is helping me realize that just because I think it is silly to spend $ on A that does not mean that it does not bring someone else great joy.  Of course all of this is assuming that you don't have "hair on fire" debt!

Yes, this! To me, this is what MMM embodies. Living well without falling into the trap of spending superfluous money just because we think we have to. We all value different things and while we spend a lot more on our grocery budget than other mustachians (everything organic, grass-fed, wild, grain-free), we travel very little (or not at all).

Cassie

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Re: EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?
« Reply #136 on: March 15, 2014, 02:02:50 PM »
Yes we do just the opposite-spend more on travel & do not buy the same type of food you do. However, we are getting older so realize that time can be limited so we need to travel while we can.  We also prefer to take a better trip and not travel every year.  We have been to Europe 3x's but that was over a period of 7 years.  This year we are doing 2 long weekend trips & then a 3-4 week driving trip with no schedule. this is the first time we have been able to take a trip without a schedule so I am very excited about this.