EVER DOUBT CLAIMS RE LIVING ON VERY LITTLE $ ?

[Cassie]

Sometimes when people post how many people live in their family, income, how little $ they live on, etc I just don't believe it. Was wondering if some others out there also feel like some of these stories are too good to be true?  At times it seems like a competition to say how little $ you live on which made me wonder if people are exaggerating to win the contest so to speak.

[warfreak2]

Basically everyone on this forum lives on a lot more than the average in rural China, for example, so no, I don't doubt that it's possible to live on "so little".

[nyxst]

Not me. I don't make much $. (45k/year gross with a family of four) And we have $ to save.  If things all fall into place during the month I can usually save over half of my income. That means we live very comfortably on about $22500. We do a LOT of stuff and my kids are happy :) but I would really love to make more money... Trying to make that happen soon.

[Cassie]

Increasing your income would certainly help you to arrive at your goal sooner. Although, there is also a quality of life issue too because you do want to enjoy the journey. I wish you luck!

[MrCash]

Increasing your income would certainly help you to arrive at your goal sooner. Although, there is also a quality of life issue too because you do want to enjoy the journey. I wish you luck!

Quality of life is a very, very subjective thing.  There are many people whose income is below poverty level that maintain a better quality of life than some who are considered rich.

[nyxst]

My quality of life is outstanding :) We never want for anything.  We have tons of fun adventures for free :) I patch clothes and cook meals to save, but that should be normal as far as I'm concerned. Our house is never too cold or too hot. We have an abundance of food. Actually, I can't for the life of me imagine how I could possible spend 75-100k per year.... I guess if I carried debt it would be different, but I never really have.
Edit: besides my mortgage, that is.. I use credit cards, but pay them monthly...

[Cheddar Stacker]

I don't have any reason to believe someone can't live on $22,500/year as nyxstar10a does with a family, or much less as others have posted. If I were single with no kids I'd be very happy living on $10-15K/year. When I was first out of school I rented a very cheap room for a year and a half. My annual expenses were about $8-9K during that time and I was able to stash away a bunch of cash for wedding/house.

However, I would think at least a few people might bend the truth a little on the expenses, and the income/net worth/savings rate. It's human nature to want to make things look rosier than they are sometimes. I don't think it's a pervasive thing on this forum because we care less about what others think of us, but I bet there's a very small amount of little white lies.

[destron]

Although I am sure that there are a few people who are either underestimating their expenses through poor record keeping or leaving things out, I believe those people are few and far between on the MMM forums. MMM promotes a culture of positivity, and reducing your expenses while working towards financial independence is a process. There is no winning by spending less than another forum member, there is only winning by succeeding with FI.

Also, I think that if users actually post their monthly expense breakdown (a la reader case studies), it would show that truly is possible to live cheaply and well.

[arebelspy]

No.

I know several people who live on less than 10k annually.

The wife and I have averaged spending about 20k over the past few years.

Neither us, nor those other people I referenced, want for anything.  I can easily see someone getting by on any amount above $0.  Spending 0 is tricky, but that's doable too, depending on your resources, skills, and what you're willing to do.

There are so many variables in play (cost of housing being a big one) that if someone optimizes they can get it very low.

[DocCyane]

I believe there is some fudge factor here revolving around anomaly expenses that arise. The one-time sickness that cost a great deal in co-pays. The television that died and was replaced. The set of tires that couldn't go another winter.

I don't think there's too much deliberate lying so much as the normal forgetfulness that comes with a busy life. Or a spreadsheet that doesn't account for one-offs.

I live on very little for Los Angeles, but I cannot get my numbers as low as some of these people. And my kids all have fur and tails. So how do they live on $22k? Probably a paid for house and a lot of free time.

[Spork]

I am sure there are one or two posers in the flock... but I think they're statistically insignificant.

I probably spend more than most folk here (but I try to do this mindfully and by choice, not blindly)...  but I've also done several years at very low spending levels (again: by choice).  I'm mustacian as compared to my peers around me... but not nearly as badass as some folk around here. 

[arebelspy]

I believe there is some fudge factor here revolving around anomaly expenses that arise. The one-time sickness that cost a great deal in co-pays. The television that died and was replaced. The set of tires that couldn't go another winter.

I don't think there's too much deliberate lying so much as the normal forgetfulness that comes with a busy life. Or a spreadsheet that doesn't account for one-offs.

I think it's disingenuous to imply this happens a lot.  Many of us use Mint and track every penny.

I side with Dragoncar on this one:

Although I am sure that there are a few people who are either underestimating their expenses through poor record keeping or leaving things out, I believe those people are few and far between on the MMM forums.

"Forgetting" expenses (on purpose or on accident) is more likely to be the exception than the rule, IMO, and if that's your excuse for not optimizing your spending ("ah, they probably just don't count all their expenses") you're doing yourself a disservice.

[Cassie]

Maybe a poll has been done on this but I also wonder about the age of most people on this forum. The reason for that is because the older you get the more your health costs go up in general even if you take good care of yourself. As a state retiree my health insurance for hubby & myself is 730.00/month which takes a huge chunk of our $.

[Spork]

Maybe a poll has been done on this but I also wonder about the age of most people on this forum. The reason for that is because the older you get the more your health costs go up in general even if you take good care of yourself. As a state retiree my health insurance for hubby & myself is 730.00/month which takes a huge chunk of our $.

I don't pretend to know how old you are or what your medical history is... but have you tried increasing your deductible to the absolute maximum you can?  (I know that amount has come down since ACA... but still: I'd go for the max.)

[Cassie]

The state only offers 2 plans and that is it. It we choose to drop it we do not qualify for any subsidies from ACA because it clearly states that if you drop an employer plan you can not qualify for a subsidy.

[Mama Mia]

When people post their yearly living amount, what is included?  For instance we always pay extra to the mortgage principle would this be included in that number?  Can someone help me understand what should be included? TIA

[totoro]

I think it is possible to live on a very limited budget and it doesn't really matter to me whether what other people post is correct. 

I do believe MMM numbers, Amy Dacyzyn numbers and The Prudent Homemaker numbers.  I think the motive to exaggerate is fairly low anyway.

The thing is there are people who track every cent and enjoy doing it.  I myself track my spending/savings - but not to the penny.  I am always aware of spending money and saving money because it is a habit born of necessity which you don't lose when you do have money.

[Spork]

When people post their yearly living amount, what is included?  For instance we always pay extra to the mortgage principle would this be included in that number?  Can someone help me understand what should be included? TIA

unfortunately, everyone probably keeps their books a little differently (which may be part of the confusion).  When we had a mortgage, I kept track of it 2 different ways:

* purely from an accounting standpoint.  In other words, escrow and interest were expenses.  Principal was an even trade.  (You take $X from a bank account asset and transfer it to the house asset and reduce the liability.)  Assuming that the house roughly is a steady asset and that it's paid off when you retire, I think this is a reasonable representation.
* purely from the cost standpoint.  Similar to the above, but the entire loan payment is treated as an expense.  This shows "how much it costs for housing" but is probably not "proper" in an accounting sense.

I did both because I was wanted to see what my monthly/yearly costs were *and* I wanted to see it from an accounting perspective as my ER plan included a paid off house.

[DocCyane]

I think it's disingenuous to imply this happens a lot. 

I didn't say it happens a lot. My opinion is that it does happen, however, based on what I gleaned from reviewing people's budgets. You're free to disagree.

"Forgetting" expenses (on purpose or on accident) is more likely to be the exception than the rule, IMO, and if that's your excuse for not optimizing your spending ("ah, they probably just don't count all their expenses") you're doing yourself a disservice.

If that's my excuse? I'll assume you meant that in the general sense rather than directing the comment to me personally. I'm not the type to make excuses.

[Melody]

With some of these very low budgets, it can be a situation where expenditure doesn't = consumption, e.g.
- company provided health insurance, car, subsidized housing, meals etc
- partner (for couples keeping separate budgets from their partner) or a parent subsidising the persons budget. For example there is one MMMer who does not pay rent because she lives in her partner's house he bought before they met and he'd rather they focus on saving for a house to buy together, then her make an arbitrary wealth transfer to him.
-different lifestyles. For example if I worked in a job where I was given a uniform (or even had to purchase it) clothes spending would plummet compared to working in a professional office environment. My housemate's transport expense is close to nil as her lifestyle does not require her to use much public transport (yesterday she took her first public transport trip in over a month) or own a car, but this would not be "realistic" for me (my boyfriend lives 3 hours away by car.)
-use of assets: a person with a paid off house "consumes" housing but doesn't pay for it. Someone who has been high income for a number of years already has all the Buy It For Life (BIFL) items, whereas someone who has only recently stepped up from a low income is now purchasing the BIFL items, so while they do this there spend looks high.
- failure to include depreciation costs in budget: a person buys a new car, then joins MMM. Subsequently their transport costs are low as their new car includes capped price servicing and a warranty, so their maintenance is say $400 a year. They aren't lying about their expenditure, but to give a comparable picture of consumption they should include depreciation, otherwise it looks like they are spending less on transport than the person who drives an old beater and spends $600 a year maintaining it. Not true, as the depreciation on the beater is negligible.
-Different countries. For example Canadians get more public services than Americans so "spend" less of their income (as MMM budgets are typically shown post tax).

[nyxst]

My company does pay for my family's health insurance in full.  I guess you can tack that onto my income to even out the score if you want to :)

[ruthiegirl]

No.

A year ago, I saw people's savings rates and I wished they were fake.  How the hell were they doing it?!? 

And then we got started and cut back and cut back again.  We sold stuff and we moved and we optimized again and again.

And yep, now I know how people were reaching those incredible savings rate, because I can do it too.

I see people's numbers and I am inspired. 

[Eric]

Sometimes when people post how many people live in their family, income, how little $ they live on, etc I just don't believe it. Was wondering if some others out there also feel like some of these stories are too good to be true?  At times it seems like a competition to say how little $ you live on which made me wonder if people are exaggerating to win the contest so to speak.

Why would they lie?  For internet message board cred?  I hear that's extremely valuable these days.  In fact, I'm planning on using it to fund my FIRE.  :)  When I see budgets that are fractions of mine I don't think they're lying, I think I'm wasteful and want to figure out how they do it. 

The way to "win the contest" is to FIRE.  One of the best ways to do that is to live happily on very little.

[FuckRx]

Sometimes when people post how many people live in their family, income, how little $ they live on, etc I just don't believe it. Was wondering if some others out there also feel like some of these stories are too good to be true?  At times it seems like a competition to say how little $ you live on which made me wonder if people are exaggerating to win the contest so to speak.

Cassie, what numbers do you find to be less believable. For example, would 20k a year for a single person be hard to believe? I guess what I'm asking is whether there is cut-off value where you would be like, bullshit! You mentioned those with several family members, throw out some numbers and let's see if people can put some breakdowns.

[thepokercab]

People misrepresenting facts, or exaggerating on an anonymous online forum?  Balderdash!  :)

That bit of sarcasm aside, I also find it hard to believe that very many people would lie about their spending.  Just not really sure what the benefit would be.  As far as I know it's not a contest  Also- like others have mentioned, i don't find the numbers unbelievable because in many areas I've personally been able to bring my spending down to similar levels. 

At the end of the day though its all about choices.  I could choose to live in a less expensive apartment, or choose to eat different types of cheaper foods, not pay for certain services, etc..  But I choose to spend the money.  People are no doubt making different choices than I am resulting in more bad-ass savings rates. 

Finally- if I had the mindset that people were faking their low spending rates and that there's just NO way that they can possible live on that much- then I feel like I'd be implying that I find it hard to believe that people could make different decisions than I.  And how would that be at all different than then the consumer horde who just can't imagine how people can possibly get by on less than 3 cars, or whatever else they absolutely must have. 

[HappierAtHome]

With some of these very low budgets, it can be a situation where expenditure doesn't = consumption, e.g.
....
- partner (for couples keeping separate budgets from their partner) or a parent subsidising the persons budget. For example there is one MMMer who does not pay rent because she lives in her partner's house he bought before they met and he'd rather they focus on saving for a house to buy together, then her make an arbitrary wealth transfer to him.
....

Assuming that this is me :D I try to make this clear when I talk about how little or how much I spend, so hopefully anyone reading my posts knows my spending excludes housing. (I know that people IRL don't believe that I spend what I spend - which is funny to me because my spending still looks like the exploding volcano of wastefulness to me - but I hope I have enough transparency on my journal that people know that it's true, and can see where I've managed to gain a lot of value for no $$, like my housing). There are definitely economies of scale in a good relationship, such as sharing housing and transport (I pay for my car entirely, my partner does not have to pay anything other than his share of petrol and gets full use of the car), but I think if you're clever about how you set up your life, you can gain the same benefits from good housemates or friends.

But generally, in response to the OP, the kind of budgets / spending levels posted here seemed unbelievable (which isn't quite the same thing as me not believing them) when I first started reading MMM, because my spending at that time was so far from being optimised that I was pretty much on another planet, financially speaking. The trick is to fix your spending one leak at a time, and before you know it, you're at a high savings rate and it feels completely normal to you.

I do look at Herbert Derp's spending and think how? How? can he spend that little? But I sincerely doubt that he's making it up - he's just way more badass than I am.

Would it help you if you read more of the threads where the super frugal post all the details of their spending? I find the journals are good for that - you get a sense of what people are doing with their time, and their spending. It would be pretty time consuming to fake that just to seem cool on the internets.

[NumberJohnny5]

I think some people may want to boast. Part of human nature, can't say I'm immune from that.

Different people budget differently. For example, I can honestly say our grocery budget is $80/wk. Does that mean we never spend more than $80/wk on food, or even average $80/wk on food? No. We also budget $20/wk on restaurants (we can dip into the restaurant budget to buy more groceries), so that's up to $100/wk on food. My wife and I each get a $50/mo (about $11.50/wk) allowance...er...misc. spending. She's used hers on groceries more than once (and I've used mine on fast food more than once), so we're up to $123/wk max for food. Wait...what if we go to the movies and buy popcorn and candy? That can come out of our $50/mo entertainment budget, or our $50/wk date night budget if it's just my wife and myself.

I don't track quite to the penny, so I can't say for sure what the average amount we spend on food per week is (heck, if on a cruise, how much of the fare should I allocate to meals?). I can honestly say that we budget $80/wk for groceries, and another $20/wk for restaurants. If I tried to put enough disclaimers to satisfy everyone...it'd take me an hour to type up a simple "$80/wk for groceries, another $20/wk for restaurants" post.

BTW, for vacations we generally don't have a strict budget (tried doing that, wife not too happy). So our actual restaurant spending probably exceeds the $20/wk figure. For our accounting, vacation expenses (including restaurants) are counted as a vacation expense. For budgeting purposes, I deduct the normal budget amount for those categories (i.e. for a one week vacation I will deduct $80 from groceries and $20 from restaurants, that way we don't double-dip).

Recently, when I'm thinking of finances, I think of the figures as "how much to live our regular daily lives", "extra non-essential spending that can easily be cut (i.e. overseas holidays)", and "saving for retirement". The "saving for retirement" category is roughly equal, if not more than, the "how much to live our regular daily lives" category. I wouldn't claim to be saving at least 50% of our total income, but I might say that we're saving an amount equal to live our day-to-day lives (excluding expensive vacations). Even our retirement goals reflects this thinking; goal #3 allows us to live a somewhat extravagant day-to-day life, but the vacation spending will need to be restricted to one-week in the same country.

It's been a couple years since I ran all the numbers, and things have changed since then (we have an extra kid which would cost more, inflation which would cost more, we've reduced day-to-day expenses which costs us less, ACA should help keep costs down, etc.); but last time I checked, $24k/yr would have us living our normal day-to-day life in the US, with no cutbacks (this is our final retirement goal, #4).

[Prairie Stash]

I believe the monthly numbers. Sometimes it would be nice to see annual numbers, my budget has some once a year payments.

Some of the longer term people have multiyear averages, those are very believable. Some of the freshly made budgets might not be perfect, but the ones I've seen are possible. Not by me though, I think our budget will be 35-40k this year.

[jscott2135]

I believe the monthly numbers. Sometimes it would be nice to see annual numbers, my budget has some once a year payments.

Some of the longer term people have multiyear averages, those are very believable. Some of the freshly made budgets might not be perfect, but the ones I've seen are possible. Not by me though, I think our budget will be 35-40k this year.

Yeah, I believe most of them too.  It wouldn't even cross my mind to doubt one (if anything I'd make me envious, like Damn it, I should be doing way better)  to even stop long enough to assume that the numbers were b.s. seems like an inefficient use of time and energy.  Guess what someone else does has almost no effect on my own actions.  I had to re-read this post and responses a few times because I couldn't quite grasp why it was a thought worth so much discussion...guess after that much reading I should toss in my own 2 cents....or apparently as some of you would like to believe my own 7 cents;)

[chicagomeg]

The only time I doubt it is when new people post case studies and claim they spend x but have x+y in income w/no indication of what y went to & no savings to show for it. Otherwise, I think most people are honest & don't really care if a few aren't.

[BPA]

Sometimes when people post how many people live in their family, income, how little $ they live on, etc I just don't believe it. Was wondering if some others out there also feel like some of these stories are too good to be true?  At times it seems like a competition to say how little $ you live on which made me wonder if people are exaggerating to win the contest so to speak.

Why would they lie?  For internet message board cred?  I hear that's extremely valuable these days.  In fact, I'm planning on using it to fund my FIRE.  :)  When I see budgets that are fractions of mine I don't think they're lying, I think I'm wasteful and want to figure out how they do it. 

The way to "win the contest" is to FIRE.  One of the best ways to do that is to live happily on very little.

+1

[Chuck]

I live a massively wasteful life compared to most here, and I don't even post a breakdown in the AaM Forum because I'll be facepunched literally to death.

If you exclude my mortgage, I live on roughly 20-25k per year.

When someone here says they live on 17k per year without a mortgage, I totally believe it.

[Zikoris]

As one of the people on the lower end of the spending scale here, the thought never crossed my mind. The entire MMM blog details exactly how to live on very little - is it really hard to believe that some of the readers actually follow the lifestyle the blog is dedicated to?

[Ambergris]

I believe there is some fudge factor here revolving around anomaly expenses that arise. The one-time sickness that cost a great deal in co-pays. The television that died and was replaced. The set of tires that couldn't go another winter.
...
I live on very little for Los Angeles, but I cannot get my numbers as low as some of these people. And my kids all have fur and tails. So how do they live on $22k? Probably a paid for house and a lot of free time.

I live on about 22k (varies a little), including mortgage PITI, but I'm living in a lower cost of living area than LA, so my mortgage PITI is around $900; I'm also single, which helps.  I suspect CA is also considerably more expensive for other things (food? utilities?) than NC.

There are two kinds of "one time" expenses: things that happen once annually, for which I essentially transfer money to savings accounts monthly so the money is there when needed, and genuine emergencies.  For that I have a separate emergency fund, plus some budget line items that can be shifted around if necessary to restore emergency savings.

I've also removed some of the big culprits from my life that cause surprising expenses: notably, a car; I also have reasonable health insurance through my job, and sufficient in the emergency fund to cover the entire copay/coinsurance/deductible if the need arose.

So yes, it is totally possible, and no, we are not "missing out" important line items.

[AlexK]

I believe it because I am living on $15k/yr so why would I think it's hard for others to do it. This forum/blog is downright lavish compared to the ERE bunch.

[stripey]

With some of these very low budgets, it can be a situation where expenditure doesn't = consumption, e.g.
....
- partner (for couples keeping separate budgets from their partner) or a parent subsidising the persons budget. For example there is one MMMer who does not pay rent because she lives in her partner's house he bought before they met and he'd rather they focus on saving for a house to buy together, then her make an arbitrary wealth transfer to him.
....

Assuming that this is me :D I try to make this clear when I talk about how little or how much I spend, so hopefully anyone reading my posts knows my spending excludes housing. (I know that people IRL don't believe that I spend what I spend - which is funny to me because my spending still looks like the exploding volcano of wastefulness to me - but I hope I have enough transparency on my journal that people know that it's true, and can see where I've managed to gain a lot of value for no $$, like my housing). There are definitely economies of scale in a good relationship, such as sharing housing and transport (I pay for my car entirely, my partner does not have to pay anything other than his share of petrol and gets full use of the car), but I think if you're clever about how you set up your life, you can gain the same benefits from good housemates or friends.

Happier, I think you do a good job at being clear on this :) and all the Aussie really-low-spenders are pretty clear on what they are *not* spending I think.

I would probably be there too if it weren't for: 1) Rent; 2) Financially contributing to my church; 3) Financially supporting aid/welfare organisations (including a significant amount for a close family member doing aid work in a remote part of the world). So at least for me the Aussies on the forum with low spending are plausible... I'm just not one of them!!

[nottoolatetostart]

I live a massively wasteful life compared to most here, and I don't even post a breakdown in the AaM Forum because I'll be facepunched literally to death.

If you exclude my mortgage, I live on roughly 20-25k per year.

When someone here says they live on 17k per year without a mortgage, I totally believe it.

I totally believe it. I know exactly what we need to do get our expenses closer to $15K. We have cable (DH's insistence, I chose to remain married than continue this battle), we have other luxuries, my food bill is probably still too high compared to most on this forum (but we are now within striking distance), we have 2 cars and drive them more than we should right now, I'm struggling to get my electricity down, we have a misc bucket for the random crap that comes up, etc. I know we live a more lavish lifestyle than others on this board. I can see the numbers. Our property taxes are higher than what most pay. We have a dog that costs us $1500/year. However, I see the waste in our life and know that this means more money we are paying.

It's not a contest. But like others said, I see the posting of the low numbers of "gee, what can I do to get there?" "I wonder if we can make any changes". Some things we are willing to cut and others we are not. I love the ideas of this forum because it prompts me to be more creative. Some decisions we go with, some we don't.

I'm getting DH on board with FIRE'ing soon and he even said to me the other day "if we don't have jobs, do we even need internet?". I love that I finally got him thinking that. So I am hopeful he is coming around to cutting even more as he is already on par with moving to a smaller (paid for) ranch house and ditching one of our cars. He is more open to biking.

[johnintaiwan]

I tend to skip over the annual or monthly spending unless it seems incredibly high. For me it is basically out of ignorance. I haven't lived in the US in a long time and have no idea what a reasonable cost of living would be. Also I have only lived in a hand full of cities. I am sure  the COL in different parts of the country or even in the same state vary dramatically. People's lifestyles also vary tremendously. I dont think an annual spending number is really something that is useful to share unless someone is soliciting advice about what they can expect if they move to a new area or something, or if they have achieved a personal goal and are excited about it.

I can understand what the OP meant by not believing some claims. I am sure there are some who are lying to themselves and everyone else about how much they spend. When I was living in PDX I remember many people trying to out brag each other about how little they consumed, someone always "forgot" about some major items.

[aclarridge]

Cassie, I agree with you that in some cases (they are few) I wonder if something is being left out.

The second part of what you said, about competition - I think there's an element of that but it's friendly. The message though is usually that you should be comfortable with your own level of spending and if you're enjoying life at that level (whether you're working and saving what you feel is enough, or are retired and not depleting your stash too fast) then you're awesome and keep enjoying life.

[DocCyane]

I believe there is some fudge factor here revolving around anomaly expenses that arise. The one-time sickness that cost a great deal in co-pays. The television that died and was replaced. The set of tires that couldn't go another winter.
...
I live on very little for Los Angeles, but I cannot get my numbers as low as some of these people. And my kids all have fur and tails. So how do they live on $22k? Probably a paid for house and a lot of free time.

I live on about 22k (varies a little), including mortgage PITI, but I'm living in a lower cost of living area than LA, so my mortgage PITI is around $900; I'm also single, which helps.  I suspect CA is also considerably more expensive for other things (food? utilities?) than NC.

There are two kinds of "one time" expenses: things that happen once annually, for which I essentially transfer money to savings accounts monthly so the money is there when needed, and genuine emergencies.  For that I have a separate emergency fund, plus some budget line items that can be shifted around if necessary to restore emergency savings.

I've also removed some of the big culprits from my life that cause surprising expenses: notably, a car; I also have reasonable health insurance through my job, and sufficient in the emergency fund to cover the entire copay/coinsurance/deductible if the need arose.

So yes, it is totally possible, and no, we are not "missing out" important line items.

First off, thank you for actually responding to what I wrote instead of projecting into it.

And second, I see what you're saying, how people will count weird, one-off expenses as an emergency rather than a budget line item. That would be just as valid from an accounting perspective.

[bluecollarmusician]

I don't typically doubt claims, although I am sure that there are false ones out there...

I remember hearing about the Wheaton Eco-Scale on ERE,

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-live-on-7000-per-year.html

http://www.permies.com/t/3069/toxin-ectomy/Wheaton-Eco-Scale
and I think that it really applies here- if you have only lived in New England- the cost of living in rural GA would probably blow your mind- perhaps seem unbelievable... add to the mix someone who is cost conscious and things can get crazy.  My wife and were even amazed ourselves.  This can create incompatible views.  I have friends who "struggle" on a 100k a year, and wonder openly how we manage on my enlisted salary- as there is little visible difference between our general living level- the only difference is we bought our house for 25$K- less than he spent on his truck.  And after fix up, it was a really nice house!  Without even trying very hard- all in our housing cost there was on average 150/month- that is including utilities and property tax!  Crazy- we could have lived on 10k year without breaking a sweat- but instead we lived like crazy people going out with friends, cooking fancy dinners and spent almost 20k...

[minimalist]

No, but I don't think health insurance is usually listed as an expense if it is a employer covered expense or subsidized pre-tax expense.

[Redfive20]

MMM is really new to me. I am not surprised to see many low spending levels posted here since I was able to beat them when I was still single and living alone. However, it is not the case any more now when I have a family with kids. What I think the most valuable message in this forum is that you can control your expense based on your priority. If my current priority is to support my kids' expensive activities in music and sports and international vacations for my parents when they still can move around, there is no way to achieve the low spending level posted here. But, it is OK if I feel fine to continue working many years as long as possible to support these goals. The most important thing I think is to decide the trade off among goals or desires and pick the better option within your income level that will make your life happier. It may not be easy. Good luck for everyone!

[matchewed]

Nope I don't doubt it at all. Most of the industrialized world probably accepts their spending levels and lifestyle choices as normal. Perhaps so normal that deviations from it are unthinkable. Once they become thinkable there can be moments of doubt (see every single other change to cultural norms). That too goes away and we start to realize that those things out of the norms are possible.

[arebelspy]

I believe it because I am living on $15k/yr so why would I think it's hard for others to do it. This forum/blog is downright lavish compared to the ERE bunch.

This.  You want to see frugal/cheap living, hit their forums. Some of those guys/gals are IMPRESSIVE!  :D

[Zikoris]

Re: Fudging numbers to not include non-regular things like insurance: I'm not sure about other people offhand, but when I say "I spent $13,188 in 2013, though $3803 of it was traveling to France, Italy, Monaco, and Guatemala, so under $10,000 was in actual living expenses", those numbers come from Mint's "2013 totals", so it would be impossible to miss anything by accident, or miss any non-monthly costs.

[lifejoy]

A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

[Zikoris]

A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

Why? My boyfriend and I average $115/month, and that's with a LOT of luxuries - soy ice cream, big bags of nuts, and a ton of expensive baking supplies. We also do very little meal-planning (just starting this month), don't really plan around sales, are constantly buying things at the expensive grocery store across the street due to poor planning, etc. I imagine our totals would tighten up A LOT, quite possibly down to around that amount, if we put in a serious effort.

[arebelspy]

A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

Why? My boyfriend and I average $115/month, and that's with a LOT of luxuries - soy ice cream, big bags of nuts, and a ton of expensive baking supplies. We also do very little meal-planning (just starting this month), don't really plan around sales, are constantly buying things at the expensive grocery store across the street due to poor planning, etc. I imagine our totals would tighten up A LOT, quite possibly down to around that amount, if we put in a serious effort.

115/mo total?  Or each?

[Zikoris]

A friend of mine says she spends $75 a month on food. I call bullshit.

Why? My boyfriend and I average $115/month, and that's with a LOT of luxuries - soy ice cream, big bags of nuts, and a ton of expensive baking supplies. We also do very little meal-planning (just starting this month), don't really plan around sales, are constantly buying things at the expensive grocery store across the street due to poor planning, etc. I imagine our totals would tighten up A LOT, quite possibly down to around that amount, if we put in a serious effort.

115/mo total?  Or each?

Sorry, per person - $230/total.