EV - to buy a Level 2 charger or not to buy a Level 2 charger...

[begood]

We joined the EV-owner cohort last week with the purchase of a 2016 Nissan Leaf S. I'm sure we overpaid - it's a CPO from the Nissan dealership. It was also the only Leaf under $15K for sale within the driving range of the vehicle, so we went ahead and got it. It does have the perk of a Level 3 fast-charge outlet, which was optional on that model.

We have been trickle-charging it - given our driving habits, we're charging it every three days to about 80%. The manual says "normal" charging is preferred, meaning Level 2, but to have one of those puppies installed at our house would probably be around $1100. There's a Level 2 charger at my mister's workplace but work vehicles have priority and the charger is often occupied.

What do y'all think? Worth the investment? Or waste of money?

[GodlessCommie]

If you can get away with charging on Level 1 every three days, I would stick with it. I'm not sure what the manual means by "preferred" - but the slower the charge, the less heat it generates, the less a battery degrades.

If you decide to go with Level 2, the wiring is really straightforward. Follow all safety precautions, of course - but you can do it for the cost of the equipment + wires + circuit breaker.

[gaja]

Depends on your electric system. If you charge at 120V and low amps it might not be a problem, but we have had a few fires in Norway due to EVs charging on a granny plug. The main problem is usually that the wire is not built for the amps it is used at, and that the same fuse and wire are serving several things (e.g. lights + washer/dryer + charger). As a low cost solution I usually recommend a CEE contact with a separate wire/fuse - the type 2 contact doesn't really give you anything the CEE can't. Except if you want to charge at 6 kW, or do some fancy "smart solutions" or "V2G".

(Sorry if this is incomprehensible in English. I usually only talk about this stuff in Norwegian, and have tried to translate).

[thd7t]

Level 1 charging is great, based on the driving you describe.

[Just Joe]

Your battery thanks you for charging at Level 1.

[Telecaster]

I have a level 2 charger for my Leaf and I like it.  The cost of installation depends a bit on how handy you are.   I wouldn't recommend connecting to the panel, unless you know what you are doing, but running the conduit and such is not too hard. 

[begood]

Thank you all for weighing in! We wouldn’t attempt the electrical work ourselves, so for the time being, I think we will stick to the trickle charge and use Level 2s when we come across them. We are already talking about the next EV - maybe one with longer range next time. This is a third car for the family. My husband and I will use it depending on who’s going where, while our teenager drives my husband’s 2012 Honda Crosstour. We don’t know how long we’ll need that third car but we will probably ditch one of our gas cars (my daily driver is a 2013 CR-V) when the time comes. I LOVE the all-electric. 

[begood]

UPDATE: My husband's workplace is in the process of installing a Level 2 charger right outside his building. And it's going to be FREE! No-charge charging, right at his doorstep. \o/

He's usually in the office around 6:30 am, so he could charge for a couple of hours before most folks even get there, then move so someone else can use the spot. There's only one other employee currently with an EV so they may just text each other when they need to use the spot.

[Bird In Hand]

I was looking at buying a Leaf for a while.  My research indicated the Level 2 charging is actually better for the Leaf's battery longevity than Level 1.  I don't recall all the details, but basically the Level 1 charge didn't heat up the battery enough during charging, and that had some sub-optimal ramifications versus the hotter L2 charging.

With your current usage, it sounds like you can probably get away with L2 charging at work every 2-3 days.  Then maybe 110v charge as needed on weekends.  That sounds pretty good to me.  Stopping the charge at 80% and not going below < 20% very often is likely going to help the battery last longer as well.

[begood]

I was looking at buying a Leaf for a while.  My research indicated the Level 2 charging is actually better for the Leaf's battery longevity than Level 1.  I don't recall all the details, but basically the Level 1 charge didn't heat up the battery enough during charging, and that had some sub-optimal ramifications versus the hotter L2 charging.

With your current usage, it sounds like you can probably get away with L2 charging at work every 2-3 days.  Then maybe 110v charge as needed on weekends.  That sounds pretty good to me.  Stopping the charge at 80% and not going below < 20% very often is likely going to help the battery last longer as well.

Yes that’s kind of what we are imagining once the charger is actually up and running. There’s another free charger in the town but you have to pay $1 an hour for parking in the garage where the charger is.

[Chaplin]

I've had my EV for 11 months and 20,000km. Level 1 at home is all I've needed and I've never wished for more. I'm building a garage and I'll set up a Level 2 because it will be easy as a part of the process, but it will be a luxury not a necessity. Everyone's situation is different of course. I can squeeze an hour or two on a Level 2 a few times per week, although I only do that because they're still free rather than because I need the charge - I could get all I need at home. I'm also a few km from a DC fast charger so I know that if I really need a fast top-up I could get it. I don't think that agonizing over whether Level 1 or 2 is better for the battery is worth the effort.

[Bird In Hand]

I don't think that agonizing over whether Level 1 or 2 is better for the battery is worth the effort.

It depends.  If you want/expect to keep a BEV for a very long time and you don't want to lose a lot of range, it's pretty darn important to understand charging best practices.  The L1/L2 choice could have a significant impact, depending on the specific battery chemistry, local temperature conditions, etc.  If I had a BEV I would definitely agonize over stuff like this...and I'd enjoy every minute of it too.  :D

[habanero]

Depends on your electric system. If you charge at 120V and low amps it might not be a problem, but we have had a few fires in Norway due to EVs charging on a granny plug. The main problem is usually that the wire is not built for the amps it is used at, and that the same fuse and wire are serving several things (e.g. lights + washer/dryer + charger). As a low cost solution I usually recommend a CEE contact with a separate wire/fuse - the type 2 contact doesn't really give you anything the CEE can't. Except if you want to charge at 6 kW, or do some fancy "smart solutions" or "V2G".

(Sorry if this is incomprehensible in English. I usually only talk about this stuff in Norwegian, and have tried to translate).

To nitpick a bit: The problem isn't the wire or the fuse or whatever else is connected via the same fuse. It's the combination of socket and plug used in a normal household socket (the Schuko which is its actual name). It ain't built for sustained power (1500-3000 Watts) over long periods of time you see when charging an EV at home. Especially if its old and/or the charger gets plugged and unplugged often - over time there is a risk that it becomes loose and that can create excessive heat which might lead to it catching fire. Im having one of those installed the next time I have an electrician at home, but I only charge at 7 amps so I'm not too worried (the recommendation being max 8 Amps, many use 13A which is the maximum available)

The safe and cheaper solution is to install an industrial socket - they are built for high power for long periods.

[begood]

Depends on your electric system. If you charge at 120V and low amps it might not be a problem, but we have had a few fires in Norway due to EVs charging on a granny plug. The main problem is usually that the wire is not built for the amps it is used at, and that the same fuse and wire are serving several things (e.g. lights + washer/dryer + charger). As a low cost solution I usually recommend a CEE contact with a separate wire/fuse - the type 2 contact doesn't really give you anything the CEE can't. Except if you want to charge at 6 kW, or do some fancy "smart solutions" or "V2G".

(Sorry if this is incomprehensible in English. I usually only talk about this stuff in Norwegian, and have tried to translate).

To nitpick a bit: The problem isn't the wire or the fuse or whatever else is connected via the same fuse. It's the combination of socket and plug used in a normal household socket (the Schuko which is its actual name). It ain't built for sustained power (1500-3000 Watts) over long periods of time you see when charging an EV at home. Especially if its old and/or the charger gets plugged and unplugged often - over time there is a risk that it becomes loose and that can create excessive heat which might lead to it catching fire. Im having one of those installed the next time I have an electrician at home, but I only charge at 7 amps so I'm not too worried (the recommendation being max 8 Amps, many use 13A which is the maximum available)

The safe and cheaper solution is to install an industrial socket - they are built for high power for long periods.

So we were told NOT to leave the charger plugged in if the car wasn't being charged - to plug it in each time we used it and unplug it when charging was done. I'd much rather leave it plugged in for the very reason you note - less wear and tear on the connections. We have a grounded sturdy outdoor three-prong outlet inside our garage. It's not new, for sure, but I don't have any way of knowing how old it is. We could request an industrial socket be put in (we live on a boarding school campus and the school owns the house) but I wonder if what we have will be adequate if we move to Level 2 charging at my husband's work as our more regular charging routine.

[NorthernMonkey]

I charge mine at 7kw when I’m at home, and 3.3 kw at work. Charging at 1.5kw would need careful planning to make sure you always had enough juice.

[habanero]

I charge mine at 7kw when I’m at home, and 3.3 kw at work. Charging at 1.5kw would need careful planning to make sure you always had enough juice.

Nah - it all comes down to usage pattern and how big the battery is. I charge my Tesla at 1.6kW (7A @ 230V) and I don't even bother charging it on a daily basis. I plug it in overnight every few days. You really only need to charge daily driving needs, which in my case are close to nil. I have never ever been even remotely close to need higher charging power at home. I keep the car between 40% and 70% charge in general and as the car has a large battery pack - even the lower level translates into about 160km range in the summer and say 120km in the winter which is more than enough to cover the level of unplanned driving I have in my life - at least it has been so for 5 years. And in the unlikely event Im going for a long drive out of the blue there are Tesla SC stations within 70-80km in any meaningful direction from where I live.

Even with a decent commute and no charging at work it would still be enough for me. A car is generally parked @home for most of the day and trickle charging is generally just fine. I know a few who have faster chargers installed (after all, EVs are extremely common in Norway) and everyone I have talked to admit they don't need it, but they didn't know when they bought the car.

Again - the need for a faster charger is HIGHER the SMALLER the battery is, not the other way around. This contradicts most peoples initial assumption, but when you think about it the logic should be clear. Even at my "low" end I have the same range as say a fulle charged Nissan Leaf. The probability of me suddenly needing range I don't have at any time is virtually zero. Only case I can think of is if I come home after a long trip and have another long trip shortly after. This has A) never happened to me and B) if so, i would stop at a supercharger on my way home to fill the battery up to a sufficient level.

[gaja]

Depends on your electric system. If you charge at 120V and low amps it might not be a problem, but we have had a few fires in Norway due to EVs charging on a granny plug. The main problem is usually that the wire is not built for the amps it is used at, and that the same fuse and wire are serving several things (e.g. lights + washer/dryer + charger). As a low cost solution I usually recommend a CEE contact with a separate wire/fuse - the type 2 contact doesn't really give you anything the CEE can't. Except if you want to charge at 6 kW, or do some fancy "smart solutions" or "V2G".

(Sorry if this is incomprehensible in English. I usually only talk about this stuff in Norwegian, and have tried to translate).

To nitpick a bit: The problem isn't the wire or the fuse or whatever else is connected via the same fuse. It's the combination of socket and plug used in a normal household socket (the Schuko which is its actual name). It ain't built for sustained power (1500-3000 Watts) over long periods of time you see when charging an EV at home. Especially if its old and/or the charger gets plugged and unplugged often - over time there is a risk that it becomes loose and that can create excessive heat which might lead to it catching fire. Im having one of those installed the next time I have an electrician at home, but I only charge at 7 amps so I'm not too worried (the recommendation being max 8 Amps, many use 13A which is the maximum available)

The safe and cheaper solution is to install an industrial socket - they are built for high power for long periods.

The plug and socket is not the only potential weak point. If the cord has to small diameter compared to the load, it too can heat. Normally, this will not cause a fire. But especially in old houses you don't know if the cord has any weak points; places where it bends, or if there are  other things on the same fuse/cord. One example I saw was where the cord for the charger went via a lamp that someone has DIYed. That caused a point for overheating, and fire danger.

But: US trickle charging is very slow. It would make sense if the fire hazard is equally low. Cutting the amps also helps.

(NO: Faren ligger ikke bare i kontakten. Hvis du prøver å dra for tunge laster over en kabel med for liten diameter, så kan du få varmgang i selve kabelen. Det er spesielt en risiko der du har andre laster på samme kurs, og disse ikke er helt opp til standard. Si f.eks. at noen en gang i tiden har installert en lampe, og kveilet deler av kabelen i isolasjonen i loftet, inntil brennbart materiale. Helt enig i at man kommer langt med en industrikontakt, men det er også viktig at denne er på en egen kurs, med stor nok sikring, og stor nok diameter.)

[Linea_Norway]

My coworker who own a Tesla says that her charger at home is a bit intelligent. If she is using many appliances, the car charger uses very little electricity. When she uses little, it uses more electricity.

She has a very good financial deal, her Tesla can always charge for free at a dedicated Tesla charger, for all it's lifetime.

[Just Joe]

When in doubt have the outlet replaced. I installed an outlet for my welding machine and air compressor. Both are 220V. The parts are not expensive. Electricians are alot cheaper than fire damage to home and vehicle.

[begood]

When in doubt have the outlet replaced. I installed an outlet for my welding machine and air compressor. Both are 220V. The parts are not expensive. Electricians are alot cheaper than fire damage to home and vehicle.

You speak wisdom, @Just Joe!

[Just Joe]

I think the outlet itself was $25.

Of course I had to buy wire, outlet box, faceplate and the outlet.

[habanero]

She has a very good financial deal, her Tesla can always charge for free at a dedicated Tesla charger, for all it's lifetime.

I have the same but unless you do a ton of road trips it's not really worth much money, and hardly even then. I use those a few times per year, the heaviest use being in the summer holidays when we can drive say 2500km over a few weeks. For "gas" for such a trip I pay roughly 2 dollars, that being the difference for how much energy I started with and how much I have when I return. Everything else has been "free". It's "free", not free. In the early days you could opt out of it and save about 2000 dollars when purchasing the car which gives an idea of how much Tesla actually charged for it. I will never use superchargers "free" enough to recover that money. Not even remotely close. The real value lies in access to the Tesla charging network which is great. The network itself is also te actual cost for Tesla, not the electric energy they provide. Even if I had to pay for it it would still be pocket money over a year. If you commute a lot and are willing to spend 15-30 minutes of your life every day to save 2-3 dollars instead of charging at home it might add up to something, but as a "job" it is extremely bad pay per hour.

It is worth somewhat more in countries with higher electricity prices than Norway, but for most Tesla owners, it doesn't add up to much. And it's a lot more hassle than charging at home. The only sensible way to use the superchargers is to use them when it's actually needed. If you can afford a 100.000 dollar car you can easily afford the electricity bill that comes along with it. And for a car in that price range the cost of fuel - gas or electric is tiny compared to the deprecation and the opportunity cost of the capital spent to buy it. Insurance is more than I save on fuel per year vs my previous diesel-powered car. Tires wear faster and are quite costly to replace.

"Free. Forver" was a nice marketing trick and people generally greatly overestimate(d) how much it was worth. Probably because most buyers were used to pay for gas, not electricity.

As for the topic - if I wanted to have a Type 2 charger installed it would cost me about 4-5 years of electricity use for the car. Its probably cheaper other places than Norway where labor costs are lower, but it also shows how cheap it is to power an electric car when charging at home. An industrial socket would be way cheaper and provide the same level of fire safety as a dedicated Type 2 charger.

[Just Joe]

I think the outlet itself was $25.

Of course I had to buy wire, outlet box, faceplate and the outlet.

Oh and a breaker. A breaker is about $10-$15.

[begood]

The Level 2 charger at my husband's workplace is up and running! It's FAST! And FREE! We are pretty excited about it. We still have the option to trickle-charge at home, but there's just way less drama around charging with the Level 2 one so accessible and not costing us a dime.