Author Topic: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?  (Read 5391 times)

Holyoak

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Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« on: March 15, 2018, 06:08:10 PM »
Been kicking this around more and more lately.  I lived in Southern Germany for a few years while with the U.S. Army, residing in a small German village, and enjoyed it very much.  Was looking recently at places I had visited while there in the early 90's, and feel it would be nice to be back in the area living a very simple life, enjoying cultures that are not like the USA.  After I do this for awhile my day-dream begins to fade, and practical aspects materialize, many of which seem daunting.

I have not traveled internationally for a very long while, and would like your thoughts on the idea of a move to Europe (partial/full), the practical aspects to consider, and guidance considering I'm a 51 single male, really only speak English well, taxation and health insurance concerns, and have a current stache about to cross $2 million thrown into the equation.

I know Southern Europe (Spain and Portugal) has a potentially LCOL, but I'm not a real big fan of high heat, and am kinda intrigued with Denmark, or the Netherlands.  Of course Germany would be great about anywhere in the country, and I have even considered some of Eastern Europe.  I know I have painted a picture with a rather wide brush, so even just the basics to start out is appreciated.  I have read some blog type information, but MMM folks seem to understand the life style and philosophy POV I/we have, and your help is appreciated.

Thank you.

ROF Expat

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 12:10:04 AM »
If this is your dream, go live your dream.  Why be FIRE if you aren't going to do the things you want to do? 

That said, you don't have to jump in the deep end immediately.  Some practical aspects of life as an expat, like visas, health insurance, and other issues are going to be a hassle for permanent residence abroad, but there's no reason for you to worry about that at this point.  Pack your bags, go someplace that interests you and get a long-term rental.  Live the life that you'd live if you were a permanent resident (minus taxes and legal issues), learn the language, meet people, and have a good time.  I think most European countries will let you stay 90 days without a long-term visa.  If you want to stay longer than that, you can apply for a longer term visa or just travel to another country once in a while.  Doing short term visits will also give you an opportunity to try out different countries and see what works best for you.  If you fall in love with a place, you can worry about how to deal with all the issues that come with foreign residence. 


expatartist

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 12:19:37 AM »
Holyoak, the Netherlands has a great program for Americans looking to start businesses - the DAFT treaty requires a very small deposit, and you only need to be physically present in Holland for 6 months/year. Also after 5 years if you can speak basic Dutch, you're eligible for a passport if you wish https://travelalatendelle.com/10-step-guide-to-getting-a-netherlands-self-employment-residence-permit-under-the-dutch-american-friendship-treaty/

Germany's Investor Visa is more stringent, requiring access to 500K Euro in capital - which you've got, but may not want to pledge to plow into a business https://medium.com/@kartika.c123/the-way-to-start-a-business-in-germany-with-german-entrepreneur-visa-5ef17e48578a

If you can handle a city, or its remote green suburbs, Berlin's Freelance visa might be an option for you https://blog.cloudpeeps.com/how-to-get-the-berlin-freelance-visa/ and you'd be eligible for a passport in 8 years

Shane

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 01:27:34 AM »
If this is your dream, go live your dream.  Why be FIRE if you aren't going to do the things you want to do? 

That said, you don't have to jump in the deep end immediately.  Some practical aspects of life as an expat, like visas, health insurance, and other issues are going to be a hassle for permanent residence abroad, but there's no reason for you to worry about that at this point.  Pack your bags, go someplace that interests you and get a long-term rental.  Live the life that you'd live if you were a permanent resident (minus taxes and legal issues), learn the language, meet people, and have a good time.  I think most European countries will let you stay 90 days without a long-term visa.  If you want to stay longer than that, you can apply for a longer term visa or just travel to another country once in a while.  Doing short term visits will also give you an opportunity to try out different countries and see what works best for you.  If you fall in love with a place, you can worry about how to deal with all the issues that come with foreign residence.

^^+1 to @ROF Expat 's comments. Just go visit the places you're interested in maybe living, @Holyoak . No need to worry about long term visas or any other details until you've made up your mind you want to stay somewhere long(er) term.

Sign up for Airbnb if you're not already. Many Airbnb hosts offer really good discounts if you rent their places for 28 nights or more. We often get 35 - 60% discounts on monthly rentals through Airbnb.

For the month of March, we're really enjoying staying in a beautiful, huge 2-bedroom Airbnb apartment in central Athens. Our apartment includes everything: utilities, internet, shampoo, soap, paper towels, etc. - all for only ~US$700 for the entire month! In April, we've rented what looks like a nice place in Paris. In May, we'll be in Norway. For the month of June, we'll be in an Airbnb in Croatia. July, we'll be in the UK.

Schengen Zone countries allow Americans to stay visa free for 90 days every 180 days. Just time your visits to the Schengen Zone so that you leave to visit non-Schengen Zone countries for at least 90 days in between visits to Schengen Zone countries.

Albania and Georgia are nice because they allow Americans to stay for 365 days without a visa! You can just go set up a base in either of those countries if you like, and then take trips around Europe from there...

Good luck. Enjoy!

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 08:40:30 AM »
Holyoak, the Netherlands has a great program for Americans looking to start businesses - the DAFT treaty requires a very small deposit, and you only need to be physically present in Holland for 6 months/year. Also after 5 years if you can speak basic Dutch, you're eligible for a passport if you wish https://travelalatendelle.com/10-step-guide-to-getting-a-netherlands-self-employment-residence-permit-under-the-dutch-american-friendship-treaty/

Germany's Investor Visa is more stringent, requiring access to 500K Euro in capital - which you've got, but may not want to pledge to plow into a business https://medium.com/@kartika.c123/the-way-to-start-a-business-in-germany-with-german-entrepreneur-visa-5ef17e48578a

If you can handle a city, or its remote green suburbs, Berlin's Freelance visa might be an option for you https://blog.cloudpeeps.com/how-to-get-the-berlin-freelance-visa/ and you'd be eligible for a passport in 8 years

+1 Do it! Europe is amazing. Check out Budapest. Cheap and gorgeous. Netherlands is great too and most speak English in main cities. Do it!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 03:17:44 PM by MrThatsDifferent »

Paul der Krake

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 08:53:20 AM »
The Netherlands have a de facto wealth tax that you probably want to look into before committing.

Find a single, older EU citizen, get married, residency problem solved.

Rosy

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 08:56:44 AM »
Germany has a reciprocal agreement with the US which allows you to stay on a visitor's visa for six months.
You might consider an extended trip first to look around, maybe two or three months, to visit a couple of the areas that appeal to you. Also, every time you go the six-month visa is in effect again so that makes things rather easy while you ponder what to do.

CONS:
1. Euro exchange rate is not favorable at present, so roughly speaking $5K is only 4K in Euro - not something you have control over, so it might be smart to build in an extra 10% up or down and think about whether that would be in the budget. Could, of course, one day be in favor of US again.

2. Germany in the 90s and Germany today - you'll notice differences, things change and the recent wave of refugees have impacted the housing in Germany as well.

PROS:
1. Groceries are cheaper and dining out can be dirt cheap, if you know where to go - savings at least 30% on food and 50% on dining out. That's huge.

However, what always surprises me is the ever popular "Bofrost" delivery that my mother had for at least twenty plus years. Excellent quality - semi-and fully prepared meals, roasts, fancy dishes like duck l'orange and all sorts of side dishes to make your mouth water and lots of desserts to choose from. They even put it in your freezer if you're old and feeble.
They have a catalog and are probably online too, the dishes change all the time and they have rotating specials. As much as I like to cook, this stuff is so good, I'd let them cook for me at least half the time.
I guess the boomers in Germany were way ahead of the Millennial order-in groceries in the US:)

Well, you know - you gotta eat:)

Southern Germany:
We spent some time in southern Germany in 2009 and it was still as picture postcard perfect as ever (around Garmisch - Partenkirchen).

My last trip was just about two years ago to the Frankfurt and Heidelberg areas and I loved it. As a retiree with sufficient funds, the area near the Austrian border towards Salzburg is a dream countryside.
It would be a great life, with nature, sports/recreation activities and culture wherever you go.

3. As far as phone service - same as here, home phones are not the thing anymore unless you are an old fogie. The good news - cell phone coverage is excellent everywhere and there are tons of cheap phone plans to be had everywhere at little kiosks.
Mobile service overall is better and cheaper than in the US by far.
Every gas station and grocery store or kiosk has cards to reload your pre-paid phone plans.

Not so great - hook-up for your home computer/TV may take a while, depending on - something to do with not all places having the hook-ups and week-long wait lists to get new service. However, wi-fi is everywhere and most apartments are set up for service, still it may take 4-6 weeks for hook-up in some areas.

4. Dual citizenship is possible and should not pose a problem.

5. Transportation
You'll most likely be fine without a car, although most people own one or two. (Car ownership will be more expensive, because of the mandatory state inspections, also, fuel is more expensive.)
Trains, buses, streetcars are as abundant and efficient as ever and everyone uses public transportation and it is reasonable, especially if you use weekly or monthly train/bus/streetcar passes - often good for all three.
BTW - two people are considered a group and you'll get a group discount for most train tickets.

Just learned about a new city to city bus tour service - twenty Euros from Munich to Hamburg - no joke:) No stops along the way either, these are specific city to city within Germany - we'll definitely make use of that cheap travel alternative when I visit.

Walking and biking everywhere is normal.
(I always lose weight when I visit, because I have to walk so much more than I do here:)

6. Medical Insurance - I don't know anything about that in your situation. When I lived and worked there it was Universal Health Care and still is.
(I have GEHA insurance and it automatically covers me while I am traveling in Germany, just have to let them know and send in the claim.)

*************

I'll be in Germany and visit other parts of Europe this summer and I confess I am curious to see how the refugee crisis affected life in Europe overall. The best thing about Germany, in my opinion, is that there is always a restaurant or beer garden at the end of your bike path or hiking trip or walking the dog trail:) and I truly enjoy sipping a Capucchino at the inner city cafe watching the world go by.

If I had my choice of places to live in Germany - small town living - it would be Heidelberg. Great University town always a fresh vibe, Gemuetlichkeit and Joie-de-vivre all rolled into one. I visit there every time I go to Germany.
My other choice would be somewhere near the Woerthersee in Bavaria - talk about picture postcard scenery and if you like nature it is a dream come true. Munich is close enough for an occasional trip and Austria and Italy are not that far either.

Good Luck with your research.

Rosy

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 08:57:40 AM »
The Netherlands have a de facto wealth tax that you probably want to look into before committing.

Find a single, older EU citizen, get married, residency problem solved.

Indeed:)

ZiziPB

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 08:58:39 AM »
Holyoak, there are a lot of advantages of living in Europe while FIREd.  Check out @Malaysia41 's journal. She is FIREd and living in Italy with her family.  And I'm about to FIRE and move to Poland next month.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2018, 09:44:07 AM »
Germany has a reciprocal agreement with the US which allows you to stay on a visitor's visa for six months.
You might consider an extended trip first to look around, maybe two or three months, to visit a couple of the areas that appeal to you. Also, every time you go the six-month visa is in effect again so that makes things rather easy while you ponder what to do.

CONS:
1. Euro exchange rate is not favorable at present, so roughly speaking $5K is only 4K in Euro - not something you have control over, so it might be smart to build in an extra 10% up or down and think about whether that would be in the budget. Could, of course, one day be in favor of US again.

2. Germany in the 90s and Germany today - you'll notice differences, things change and the recent wave of refugees have impacted the housing in Germany as well.

PROS:
1. Groceries are cheaper and dining out can be dirt cheap, if you know where to go - savings at least 30% on food and 50% on dining out. That's huge.

However, what always surprises me is the ever popular "Bofrost" delivery that my mother had for at least twenty plus years. Excellent quality - semi-and fully prepared meals, roasts, fancy dishes like duck l'orange and all sorts of side dishes to make your mouth water and lots of desserts to choose from. They even put it in your freezer if you're old and feeble.
They have a catalog and are probably online too, the dishes change all the time and they have rotating specials. As much as I like to cook, this stuff is so good, I'd let them cook for me at least half the time.
I guess the boomers in Germany were way ahead of the Millennial order-in groceries in the US:)

Well, you know - you gotta eat:)

Southern Germany:
We spent some time in southern Germany in 2009 and it was still as picture postcard perfect as ever (around Garmisch - Partenkirchen).

My last trip was just about two years ago to the Frankfurt and Heidelberg areas and I loved it. As a retiree with sufficient funds, the area near the Austrian border towards Salzburg is a dream countryside.
It would be a great life, with nature, sports/recreation activities and culture wherever you go.

3. As far as phone service - same as here, home phones are not the thing anymore unless you are an old fogie. The good news - cell phone coverage is excellent everywhere and there are tons of cheap phone plans to be had everywhere at little kiosks.
Mobile service overall is better and cheaper than in the US by far.
Every gas station and grocery store or kiosk has cards to reload your pre-paid phone plans.

Not so great - hook-up for your home computer/TV may take a while, depending on - something to do with not all places having the hook-ups and week-long wait lists to get new service. However, wi-fi is everywhere and most apartments are set up for service, still it may take 4-6 weeks for hook-up in some areas.

4. Dual citizenship is possible and should not pose a problem.

5. Transportation
You'll most likely be fine without a car, although most people own one or two. (Car ownership will be more expensive, because of the mandatory state inspections, also, fuel is more expensive.)
Trains, buses, streetcars are as abundant and efficient as ever and everyone uses public transportation and it is reasonable, especially if you use weekly or monthly train/bus/streetcar passes - often good for all three.
BTW - two people are considered a group and you'll get a group discount for most train tickets.

Just learned about a new city to city bus tour service - twenty Euros from Munich to Hamburg - no joke:) No stops along the way either, these are specific city to city within Germany - we'll definitely make use of that cheap travel alternative when I visit.

Walking and biking everywhere is normal.
(I always lose weight when I visit, because I have to walk so much more than I do here:)

6. Medical Insurance - I don't know anything about that in your situation. When I lived and worked there it was Universal Health Care and still is.
(I have GEHA insurance and it automatically covers me while I am traveling in Germany, just have to let them know and send in the claim.)

*************

I'll be in Germany and visit other parts of Europe this summer and I confess I am curious to see how the refugee crisis affected life in Europe overall. The best thing about Germany, in my opinion, is that there is always a restaurant or beer garden at the end of your bike path or hiking trip or walking the dog trail:) and I truly enjoy sipping a Capucchino at the inner city cafe watching the world go by.

If I had my choice of places to live in Germany - small town living - it would be Heidelberg. Great University town always a fresh vibe, Gemuetlichkeit and Joie-de-vivre all rolled into one. I visit there every time I go to Germany.
My other choice would be somewhere near the Woerthersee in Bavaria - talk about picture postcard scenery and if you like nature it is a dream come true. Munich is close enough for an occasional trip and Austria and Italy are not that far either.

Good Luck with your research.

That's actually the historic norm exchange rate as when the Euro was created it was artificially set by the EU to start from day one at 1.25 US$ per 1 Euro. Today its 1.23 dollars per 1 Euro so the dollar is ever so slightly strong against the Euro in historic terms.

profnot

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
I'm looking at moving to Europe later, too.

www.City-Data.com has a lot of information about cities in Europe, US, and elsewhere.  There's a section of articles in addition to a very lively forum. 

www.ExpatForum.com is another good source.  Lots of chatter about visas on the forums.

Here's a map of the Schengen countries
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/e-library/docs/schengen_brochure/schengen_brochure_dr3111126_en.pdf

CapLimited

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2018, 10:36:55 AM »
I'm looking at moving to Europe later, too.


Me, too.  Already started studying French, doing lots of research about how to navigate the French bureaucracy, and researching/visiting a variety of French cities to pick the place that will best suit my lifestyle.

jim555

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2018, 03:27:23 PM »
The Netherlands have a de facto wealth tax that you probably want to look into before committing.

Find a single, older EU citizen, get married, residency problem solved.
The Dutch wealth tax is absurd, and don't forget the VAT up to 21%.

"Possessions like savings, shares, houses that are not the primary living etc. over € 21,139. are assumed to have an annual 4% yield which is taxed at 30%, regardless of the actual annual yield achieved."

So on 2 million they will clip you for 2,000,000-21,139=1,978,861*.04=79,154*.3=  annual tax  €23,746

Paul der Krake

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2018, 05:45:25 PM »
High 20-ish percent VAT taxes are pretty standard all over Europe, there's no escaping that.

Eric

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2018, 05:48:00 PM »
Germany has a reciprocal agreement with the US which allows you to stay on a visitor's visa for six months.

Do you have any more info on this?  I've been researching travel visas for Europe for a long time now and this is new to me.  I've seen similar programs for Denmark and (I believe) Norway, but not for Germany.

Holyoak

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 06:28:04 AM »
Thanks very much everyone for the great information, insights, and help.  Seeing that huge tax hit for the Netherlands is very disappointing, but can't say I'm surprised.  Whew, the projected tax is way more than I live on right now, so perhaps it's a nice place to visit only.  Marry a nice gal from the EU? - Hmm, not for me at this time for sure, but that could be very nice.  I was married for almost 24 years, divorced going on 5 years, and it might be nice to share a great adventure with someone.

Reading the replies about Germany, and other places mentioned in this thread, sure brought back memories from almost 30 years ago...  Magnificent Heidelberg, Rothenberg, Innsbruck, Garmisch, Bolsano Italy, even just after the fall of Russian dominance of Poland, I found the country to be lovely.

How do you/did you folks who did extended stays with a return, manage the USA side of the equation?  Do/did you have a paid off home as a home base, temp rental, or nothing really at all to return to back in the US?  I'm finding this a very challenging aspect to consider and plan for.  Well, thanks again for the help.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2018, 10:17:33 AM »
Yep here in Italy we have a 22% VAT tax.  I do as much shopping as I can when back in the US visiting family.  Even Italian brands are much cheaper there.

As far as visas go, here in Italy there is a 'retiree' visas that Americans can qualify for called a 'elective residency visa'.  I know that France has something similar - no idea about other European countries.  Basically, if you can show that you have a certain amount of money in the bank and/or non-work income such as a pension or rental income then you qualify for this visa.  The main requirement is that you can't work and of course you have to pay privately for health care but private health insurance is incredibly cheap here compared to the US (health care generally is a bargain here in Europe compared to the US). 

I know you don't like hot weather but there are plenty of chilly parts of Italy in the north and/or in mountainous areas.  I would research this visa if you'd like to live here for more than a 90 day tourist visa.

Holyoak

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2018, 11:47:54 AM »
The cooler, Alpine parts of Italy I agree could be very nice.  I mentioned Bolzano-Bozen Italy in my previous post, and wow, what a beautiful place I found it to be.  Breathtaking.

 

jim555

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2018, 11:55:14 AM »
Your probably better to keep moving (avoid residency) to avoid coming under the taxing schemes in each country, who needs that headache.

calimom

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2018, 11:59:35 AM »
I've wondered about the feasibility of doing direct home exchanges. Obviously, this only works if you wish to stay in one place in another location, with shorter trips from your base stay. The real benefits are of course the cost savings, and the assumed assuredness of each party treating the visiting home as their own.

Does anyone have experience with this, good, bad or otherwise?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2018, 03:35:28 PM »
Your probably better to keep moving (avoid residency) to avoid coming under the taxing schemes in each country, who needs that headache.
Moving every 180 days isn't without headaches either...

Hula Hoop

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2018, 04:00:54 PM »
Your probably better to keep moving (avoid residency) to avoid coming under the taxing schemes in each country, who needs that headache.
Moving every 180 days isn't without headaches either...

I agree and here in Europe there are so many different languages spoken in different regions.  You'd just be starting to learn, say, German and then it would be time to move onto, say, Italy. 

Shane

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Re: Europe for a single, older Mustacian?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2018, 06:26:58 PM »
How do you/did you folks who did extended stays with a return, manage the USA side of the equation?  Do/did you have a paid off home as a home base, temp rental, or nothing really at all to return to back in the US?  I'm finding this a very challenging aspect to consider and plan for.  Well, thanks again for the help.

Close to two years ago we sold everything except one box of keepsakes we left with relatives. It felt really good to get rid of all of our stuff. I like the feeling of freedom and the simplicity of having everything I own fit into a small carry on bag. When we return to the US later this year we'll rent a small house and probably end up buying some things again that we used to own, but we're not going to rush out and spend thousands of dollars right away. We'll just buy stuff, little by little, as we need it. Mostly we'll probably try to find good deals on quality furniture, tools, etc, on CL. We'll look for things we can resell for close to what we pay for them when we're ready to go traveling again. All the money we saved by not paying for a storage unit for two years should be more than enough to cover the cost of getting started in the US again.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!