Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 1715361 times)

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3450 on: December 03, 2020, 08:59:53 PM »
One of the partners is convinced (and I actually agree) that salary increases don't make people more productive.  But the realization I came to (and subsequently shared) is that salary increases *do* help your productive people to stay.

Yea, I would agree with both those statements.  Raises are satisfying for 2-3 paychecks, then it goes away.  But getting paid adequately and having a pleasant working environment keeps me where I'm at.  Doesn't have to be an amazing working environment.  We don't have a free snack table and coffee bar and ping pong area and video game room.  But I don't mind going in to work, and am comfortable when I'm there (and I like the people I work with, which is probably most important).  I could make more elsewhere, but not significantly more, and I know I might chase more money and dislike where I end up.  So I stay, confidently and happily.

Plina

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3451 on: December 03, 2020, 11:12:38 PM »
It sounds like it was a test of loyalty to them. F that. If they value your loyalty more than your underlying honesty and commitment to fulfilling your obligations to your past clients, that’s a huge red flag. As a leader, that commitment and integrity is what I would find most valuable, and I would be more likely to keep you around.
When we had trouble attracting and keeping good staff, I constantly said we need to pay more. That's the bottom line--better salary or better benefits. The owners and upper-level management refused to do it. After beating my head against this wall for a few months of middle-level management, I left the industry completely. Our here in the real world, the company I work for understands that good benefits, good salary, and a good working environment *create* loyalty, not some rah-rah crap being spouted by HR.
A couple years ago, I nearly left my employer for another job.  I work for two partners, and have a good relationship with both.  My salary had basically stayed stagnant for a few years.  One of the partners is convinced (and I actually agree) that salary increases don't make people more productive.  But the realization I came to (and subsequently shared) is that salary increases *do* help your productive people to stay.  Transition costs, whether it be replacing an employee or relocating a business, are really stinkin' high, especially in a small and highly technical business such as ours.

I had a workplace were I basically was angry every year after my so called salary negotiation. First year, I was pissed for two weeks because the increase was less than inflation and due to factors outside of my control so I basically got a decrease. Next year, I put the meeting in the beginning of the week because I didn’t want to disturb my weekend. Those meetings were a real demotivating factor in my job satisfaction and did contribute to the fact that I left the company. I have also been in a place were I asked for a salary increase, I didn’t think I would get because it was in a government position even though I deserved it. The manager pulled that off. That was a big loyalty boost from my point of view.

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3452 on: December 04, 2020, 04:14:12 AM »
It sounds like it was a test of loyalty to them. F that. If they value your loyalty more than your underlying honesty and commitment to fulfilling your obligations to your past clients, that’s a huge red flag. As a leader, that commitment and integrity is what I would find most valuable, and I would be more likely to keep you around.
"Loyality Tests" like those are complete BS. Not only you make your people unhappy (which is a sure way to lower loyality), but you also tend to end up with people in vulnerable positions (as in "I can't afford to go!!"), wich are prime targets for "secret side hustles", bribery or theft.


Chris@TTL

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3453 on: December 04, 2020, 08:25:26 AM »
Not long after, my supervisor showed up at my desk. He looked upset, apologized, and said that not only was my offer rescinded but that they were canceling my contract.

Right then.

As in—”Get your stuff—we’re walking out right now. Give me your security badge.”

I shut down my workstation, grabbed my bag and a few personal items, then walked out the door with the supervisor right behind me.

I drove home stunned, but happy with my decision.

FU money let me do what I thought was right. And I wasn’t the least bit worried about paying my bills until I found a new job.
...
Full source: This Is the Power of FU Money (and How I Was Escorted Out)

WOW! Did you ever find out why they were so gung ho about shutting down your side hustle?

Surprisingly, not really. I kept in touch with a couple of the non-management creative and tech folks. Apparently it was a requirement from upon high—not from anyone I interacted with on a daily basis.

The strange part is that the only way they'd even know about my little agency was by way of my original resume and then Googling for the company. It's not like it was something I talked about at work (primarily because, again, it barely made any money as I was just maintaining existing relationships).

It sounds like it was a test of loyalty to them. F that. If they value your loyalty more than your underlying honesty and commitment to fulfilling your obligations to your past clients, that’s a huge red flag. As a leader, that commitment and integrity is what I would find most valuable, and I would be more likely to keep you around.
"Loyality Tests" like those are complete BS. Not only you make your people unhappy (which is a sure way to lower loyality), but you also tend to end up with people in vulnerable positions (as in "I can't afford to go!!"), wich are prime targets for "secret side hustles", bribery or theft.



Some folks mentioning it was likely a sort of "loyalty test".

It could have been.

If I had to guess, it was some weird HR rule that had zero flexibility—or the one person who might have been able to overturn it (boss's boss) was indeed testing for loyalty when I initially asked for some time to think it over and followed up with questions about maintaining the business.

It was an altogether strange experience. This is a company with its own on-site museum exhibiting their military & tech advances. You'd recognize their name—they're big. My little side hustle was not any competition.

They offered me the position a couple of months ahead of when they were supposed to evaluate the contract-to-hire (1 year). And they offered more money than I was making under the contract position with a full benefits package (usually you make a little less as W2 than 1099).

They had pretty strict "levels" within the org where everyone starts at the bottom unless you're something akin to partner level where you get profit-sharing etc. They were offering to start me out a level higher than the lowest.

Lots of things pointed to them being happy with my performance. Really strange to lose it all over such a small thing.

Then again, I'm pretty happy with how things turned out! I switched over to higher ed which I quite enjoyed—even taking on an adjunct position at one point. Some years later, I left the "big city" for a slower pace and restarted my business full-time. And that's what really got me to FI.

Thanks, FU money. :-)

Tigerpine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3454 on: December 04, 2020, 09:47:55 AM »
I interned for a short time at a company that had you sign a contract stating that you agreed that all of your earned income had to be from the company.  There was no flexibility in their policy.  Knowing about that policy was a major factor in why I never applied for a permanent position there.  They're basically requiring you to be completely financially dependent on the company.  Oh, and they had a non-compete clause, too.

Companies are like people.  Some are controlling by nature.  Best to avoid them if at all possible.

Boll weevil

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3455 on: December 04, 2020, 10:42:58 AM »
I read the story as the person’s job and side hustle were in the same (or at least related) industries, and the concerns there are potential leakage of intellectual property and working the side hustle on company time (programming windows look the same from far away... is the person working on company stuff or side hustle?).

Had the side hustle been something totally unrelated such as yard work or working in a restaurant, I’m guessing the company wouldn’t have brought it up.

NorCal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3456 on: December 04, 2020, 10:53:37 AM »
Most likely, someone did something entirely unethical and/or illegal with a side hustle in the companies history.  Some exec got upset and the company put "no outside employment" in the company handbook, and no provision for exceptions.  This mentality is pretty common in anything government/contractor related.


DeepEllumStache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3457 on: December 04, 2020, 11:09:33 AM »
Or they really hate people schilling MLMs in the workplace and went overboard.

Chris@TTL

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3458 on: December 04, 2020, 11:20:23 AM »
I read the story as the person’s job and side hustle were in the same (or at least related) industries, and the concerns there are potential leakage of intellectual property and working the side hustle on company time (programming windows look the same from far away... is the person working on company stuff or side hustle?).

Had the side hustle been something totally unrelated such as yard work or working in a restaurant, I’m guessing the company wouldn’t have brought it up.

Perhaps. The side hustle was mostly in digital support on the web. For example, the primary client at the time that remained was involved in giving scholarships to needy children. I provided some web-related guidance for them.

The work I did at the company was internal facing and more technical as part of a large communications project.

The only real relationship was that both types of work were digital. A little like if suggested you couldn't run a side gig that built mountain bike trails in your local parks because your primary work was in geological analysis of mineral deposits in the Congo. They're both outdoors. :-)

Most likely, someone did something entirely unethical and/or illegal with a side hustle in the companies history.  Some exec got upset and the company put "no outside employment" in the company handbook, and no provision for exceptions.  This mentality is pretty common in anything government/contractor related.



This is the sort of reasoning I would lean towards.

And to be clear (and supporting what @Boll weevil was saying), I don't necessarily disagree with what the company did or why they did it. I'm sure there is some sort of explanation and historical good reason for it. And more importantly, they can make hiring decisions based on whatever they wish (within legal bounds).

I was sharing the story to highlight a good reason to have FU money, and a fun escorted "walk of shame" out of the office. :-)

bmjohnson35

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3459 on: December 04, 2020, 01:31:34 PM »
I read the story as the person’s job and side hustle were in the same (or at least related) industries, and the concerns there are potential leakage of intellectual property and working the side hustle on company time (programming windows look the same from far away... is the person working on company stuff or side hustle?).

Had the side hustle been something totally unrelated such as yard work or working in a restaurant, I’m guessing the company wouldn’t have brought it up.

Perhaps. The side hustle was mostly in digital support on the web. For example, the primary client at the time that remained was involved in giving scholarships to needy children. I provided some web-related guidance for them.

The work I did at the company was internal facing and more technical as part of a large communications project.

The only real relationship was that both types of work were digital. A little like if suggested you couldn't run a side gig that built mountain bike trails in your local parks because your primary work was in geological analysis of mineral deposits in the Congo. They're both outdoors. :-)

Most likely, someone did something entirely unethical and/or illegal with a side hustle in the companies history.  Some exec got upset and the company put "no outside employment" in the company handbook, and no provision for exceptions.  This mentality is pretty common in anything government/contractor related.



This is the sort of reasoning I would lean towards.

And to be clear (and supporting what @Boll weevil was saying), I don't necessarily disagree with what the company did or why they did it. I'm sure there is some sort of explanation and historical good reason for it. And more importantly, they can make hiring decisions based on whatever they wish (within legal bounds).

I was sharing the story to highlight a good reason to have FU money, and a fun escorted "walk of shame" out of the office. :-)


I had less than a favorable opinion of my company's HR department.  Policy usually is grounded in legal precedent or lessons learned. Although these stories are entertaining, I agree that their main purpose is to illustrate the value of FU money. 

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3460 on: December 04, 2020, 01:50:42 PM »
Even in a company where a central part of HR’s job is to develop people and cultivate company culture, their foundational basis is to ensure legal compliance and protect the company. If you’re working for Megacorp, or even Mediumcorp, you need to remember that and accept it.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3461 on: December 04, 2020, 02:01:04 PM »
Had the side hustle been something totally unrelated such as yard work or working in a restaurant, I’m guessing the company wouldn’t have brought it up.
Sadly, too often it's a blanket policy of "no outside businesses, period."  I know a couple of guys who worked for a huge multinational oil company with such a policy.  They started a web-based side business.  There was absolutely no overlap between the two industries, and yet the policy applied.  At first they just didn't mention they had a side gig, and then eventually the side gig became profitable enough that they quit their day jobs.

techwiz

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3462 on: December 04, 2020, 02:52:43 PM »
then eventually the side gig became profitable enough that they quit their day jobs.

That might be the reason right there!

Uturn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3463 on: December 04, 2020, 03:07:13 PM »
then eventually the side gig became profitable enough that they quit their day jobs.

That might be the reason right there!

Holding someone back to force loyalty. Not really the person I would want to work for.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3464 on: December 05, 2020, 05:19:12 AM »
Had the side hustle been something totally unrelated such as yard work or working in a restaurant, I’m guessing the company wouldn’t have brought it up.
Sadly, too often it's a blanket policy of "no outside businesses, period."  I know a couple of guys who worked for a huge multinational oil company with such a policy.  They started a web-based side business.  There was absolutely no overlap between the two industries, and yet the policy applied.  At first they just didn't mention they had a side gig, and then eventually the side gig became profitable enough that they quit their day jobs.

HR/businesses are stupid. They don't know how to harness the power of employees. Businesses think they have power but it is the workers who have all the power. Businesses are rooted to the spot. Employees, if they're good and talented, can work for anyone in the world, including themselves (even more so in today's knowledge-based economy). Businesses have to give into good employees' demands otherwise it's all over, red rover. Particularly in this day and age of retrenchment payouts and sick leave, employees can really screw around with employers if they want to (though it pays to not burn bridges).

I'm constantly amazed by how conflict-avoidant many employees are. Sure, if you're a poor/average employee it pays to keep your mouth shut. But the stars and super stars are mostly short changing themselves. By making demands of their employer and skipping jobs they could get a lot more money in their pocket. FIRE aims to make that easier by removing any reliance you have on your employer, and thus evening the bargaining power.

I have found that when you no longer care about a business relationship's future, that is when you have the most power. And you should try to have that impartiality in all your business relationships.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 05:29:40 AM by Bloop Bloop Reloaded »

Zaga

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3465 on: December 05, 2020, 07:42:29 AM »
Had the side hustle been something totally unrelated such as yard work or working in a restaurant, I’m guessing the company wouldn’t have brought it up.
Sadly, too often it's a blanket policy of "no outside businesses, period."  I know a couple of guys who worked for a huge multinational oil company with such a policy.  They started a web-based side business.  There was absolutely no overlap between the two industries, and yet the policy applied.  At first they just didn't mention they had a side gig, and then eventually the side gig became profitable enough that they quit their day jobs.

HR/businesses are stupid. They don't know how to harness the power of employees. Businesses think they have power but it is the workers who have all the power. Businesses are rooted to the spot. Employees, if they're good and talented, can work for anyone in the world, including themselves (even more so in today's knowledge-based economy). Businesses have to give into good employees' demands otherwise it's all over, red rover. Particularly in this day and age of retrenchment payouts and sick leave, employees can really screw around with employers if they want to (though it pays to not burn bridges).

I'm constantly amazed by how conflict-avoidant many employees are. Sure, if you're a poor/average employee it pays to keep your mouth shut. But the stars and super stars are mostly short changing themselves. By making demands of their employer and skipping jobs they could get a lot more money in their pocket. FIRE aims to make that easier by removing any reliance you have on your employer, and thus evening the bargaining power.

I have found that when you no longer care about a business relationship's future, that is when you have the most power. And you should try to have that impartiality in all your business relationships.
Clearly you live in a country where workers have actual rights.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3466 on: December 05, 2020, 01:36:56 PM »
Had the side hustle been something totally unrelated such as yard work or working in a restaurant, I’m guessing the company wouldn’t have brought it up.
Sadly, too often it's a blanket policy of "no outside businesses, period."  I know a couple of guys who worked for a huge multinational oil company with such a policy.  They started a web-based side business.  There was absolutely no overlap between the two industries, and yet the policy applied.  At first they just didn't mention they had a side gig, and then eventually the side gig became profitable enough that they quit their day jobs.

HR/businesses are stupid. They don't know how to harness the power of employees.
I disagree.  Not with the outcomes--I agree with you there.  HR's job isn't to harness the power of employees.  Their job isn't to use common sense, nor to act in anyone's (the employee's or the business's) best interest.  HR's job, at least in large businesses, is to enforce the rules set up by management, no matter how nonsensical the rules are, or how much damage would be done to the company by enforcing bad policy.  One of those two guys was a high-performer, on the fast track to upper management, when he chose to leave instead.  Recently, he told me the story of a good friend of his, who used to work for one of the FAANGs, and was similarly a high-performer.  He did something that apparently ruffled some feathers, although it violated no written company policy, did not affect his job performance, and was in no way detrimental to the company.  He got fired.  Zero warning, zero opportunity to course correct, zero consideration for the high-five-to-low-six-figure cost to the company to replace him, no regard for the wishes of his chain of command.

Management, of course, sets the policies for HR to enforce, and, like most large bureaucracies, they can't consider every corner case, nor allow for the use of judgment, because that opens the door to unequal treatment of people under varying circumstances, or for varying enforcement of the rules depending on which HR person is doing the enforcement.  No-questions-asked enforcement of the policies is "safe," but highly efficient, and at the scale of a large business, it's sort of unavoidable in order to avoid chaos.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3467 on: December 05, 2020, 04:46:26 PM »
I know HR is in place to act as a cushion between employees and management. Just like real estate agents are there to cushion between renters and landlords. Both jobs are unimaginably dull. But while rules and policies should be applied consistently, pay should not. HR and management have plenty of discretion re: pay yet they constantly try to lowball employees. While this might be good policy in the main, when it comes to your star employees, if you don't give in to their pay demands there is a real risk of them leaving. For me that's what happened and now I work for myself and I am free to set my own exorbitant hourly rate which I now do. My old employers now sometimes contract with me at a much higher rate than I had ever asked when I was an employee. To me that makes no sense.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3468 on: December 05, 2020, 05:50:09 PM »
I mean...meh? Star employees do get to dictate a lot more than they probably realize. But also, 95% of our employees THINK they’re stars when only 5% or so would be hard to replace. When people bring us their ultimatums, we just tell them we wish them well. In the US we’re mostly at will employers so there are no real costs to letting them leave. If they leave of their own volition we don’t even have to pay unemployment. I don’t say this because I think it’s right, but because it’s reality. Most of our workforce have very little sway over their situation, except to choose to leave.

In the US, HR is not there to be a buffer between employees and management. They’re there to keep the company from being sued. In the meantime, they have other tasks, but that’s priority #1.

Zaga

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3469 on: December 05, 2020, 08:53:24 PM »
I mean...meh? Star employees do get to dictate a lot more than they probably realize. But also, 95% of our employees THINK they’re stars when only 5% or so would be hard to replace. When people bring us their ultimatums, we just tell them we wish them well. In the US we’re mostly at will employers so there are no real costs to letting them leave. If they leave of their own volition we don’t even have to pay unemployment. I don’t say this because I think it’s right, but because it’s reality. Most of our workforce have very little sway over their situation, except to choose to leave.

In the US, HR is not there to be a buffer between employees and management. They’re there to keep the company from being sued. In the meantime, they have other tasks, but that’s priority #1.
I would disagree with the bolded above, because this is horribly short sighted.  No, there are no immediate obvious costs, but training a new person every few months to a year is expensive!  It's much cheaper to pay a bit more or give other perks than to constantly lose people (and institutional knowledge).

Kazyan

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3470 on: December 05, 2020, 10:27:04 PM »
I'm constantly amazed by how conflict-avoidant many employees are. Sure, if you're a poor/average employee it pays to keep your mouth shut[...]

Most people are average. Otherwise, 'average' would mean something different.

lutorm

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3471 on: December 06, 2020, 12:49:43 AM »
I'm constantly amazed by how conflict-avoidant many employees are. Sure, if you're a poor/average employee it pays to keep your mouth shut[...]

Most people are average. Otherwise, 'average' would mean something different.
Technically no, most people are not necessarily average. Half the people are below the median, half are above. But the average can practically be anywhere between the best and the worst.

former player

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3472 on: December 06, 2020, 02:10:21 AM »
I'm constantly amazed by how conflict-avoidant many employees are. Sure, if you're a poor/average employee it pays to keep your mouth shut[...]

Most people are average. Otherwise, 'average' would mean something different.
Technically no, most people are not necessarily average. Half the people are below the median, half are above. But the average can practically be anywhere between the best and the worst.

The definition of "average" seems to have diverged: one meaning for the average person and another for the pedantic.

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3473 on: December 06, 2020, 05:41:58 AM »
I'm constantly amazed by how conflict-avoidant many employees are. Sure, if you're a poor/average employee it pays to keep your mouth shut[...]

Most people are average. Otherwise, 'average' would mean something different.
Technically no, most people are not necessarily average. Half the people are below the median, half are above. But the average can practically be anywhere between the best and the worst.

The definition of "average" seems to have diverged: one meaning for the average person and another for the pedantic.
You mean one for the Average Joe and one for the person who knows what it means.
My favorite example is always the multimillionaire.
You have 9 people without any money.
One person has 10 million.
So in average everyone is a millionaire.

That is btw. what is happening especially in the US, just worse: For every multimillionaire you have several people in debt.

Kazyan

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3474 on: December 06, 2020, 07:55:40 AM »
You mean one for the Average Joe and one for the person who knows what it means.

This is a pretty snide comment, given that the distinction is both unimportant to the point and incomplete in its pedantry. "Average" can refer to either the mean, median, or mode of a series, so it's kind of puzzling to go out of one's way to start correcting us with the idea that we're obviously talking about the mean. All else being equal, instead of making assumptions that don't fit the text, why not make assumptions that do fit the text?

I didn't find it illustrative to speculate about the exact distribution of effort/skill level among employees. That's not something you can easily quantify, anyway. If it's all the same to you, let's assume it's either a normal distribution or is otherwise like most datasets where people even bother to calculate an average--that is to say, the mean and median are close enough values that when we're having colloquial discussions, that we don't really need to specify which average we mean.

Finally, the point about single extremely high outliers skewing the mean is true. But if that's the case, then the "most people are average" point to explain Bloop's observation only changes in a pedantic way--those extremely high outliers are thus even rarer cases than we would have expected for a normal distribution, so it's definitely advantageous for most people to keep their mouth shut.

lutorm

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3475 on: December 06, 2020, 12:19:59 PM »
You mean one for the Average Joe and one for the person who knows what it means.

This is a pretty snide comment, given that the distinction is both unimportant to the point and incomplete in its pedantry. "Average" can refer to either the mean, median, or mode of a series, so it's kind of puzzling to go out of one's way to start correcting us with the idea that we're obviously talking about the mean. All else being equal, instead of making assumptions that don't fit the text, why not make assumptions that do fit the text?

I didn't find it illustrative to speculate about the exact distribution of effort/skill level among employees. That's not something you can easily quantify, anyway. If it's all the same to you, let's assume it's either a normal distribution or is otherwise like most datasets where people even bother to calculate an average--that is to say, the mean and median are close enough values that when we're having colloquial discussions, that we don't really need to specify which average we mean.

Finally, the point about single extremely high outliers skewing the mean is true. But if that's the case, then the "most people are average" point to explain Bloop's observation only changes in a pedantic way--those extremely high outliers are thus even rarer cases than we would have expected for a normal distribution, so it's definitely advantageous for most people to keep their mouth shut.
I have personally never seen the term "average" used to mean anything but the mean. But the distinction is anything but pedantry. People being ignorant about this distinction is exactly why we see bills being promoted by saying things like "this Bill will give taxpayers an average tax cut of $1000" to make people think that they're going to get a $1000 tax cut when it in fact means that the 0.1% get a $1,000,000 tax cut and anyone who makes below $250k gets $0...

The degree to which people's skill level, however you define that, is normal or skewed is a good question. There may be a long tail of highly skilled people, but there's probably also a long tail of completely incompetent ones. If you let skill be a signed value, meaning that there are people who actually make a net negative contribution, it might actually be pretty symmetric.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3476 on: December 06, 2020, 07:45:13 PM »
When I said average I meant mean, and I assume skill is roughly distributed in a normal distribution.

It may be that for average workers it's best to shut up, but my point was that many truly skilled workers behave as if they were average workers - because that is the culture that we're brought up in - don't shake the tree, etc, etc.


LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3477 on: December 07, 2020, 04:31:40 AM »
You mean one for the Average Joe and one for the person who knows what it means.

This is a pretty snide comment, given that the distinction is both unimportant to the point and incomplete in its pedantry.
Maybe it's because I am a pedandric German, but I think:
It's only a snide comment to those who have slept during math 6th class.

If you think it's unimportant, then let me ask you this: Do you care if you earn $2000 or $3000 a month?
Because that is the unimportant, pedantric difference between average and median income.

It's like those people who think a maximum tax rate of 50% means they have to pay 50% on the first dollar.

You just can't have a successful communication if even those basics of meaning are not clear.

grantmeaname

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3478 on: December 07, 2020, 06:44:51 AM »
You are misunderstanding the meaning of the word "average" vs the "arithmetic mean". You are discarding all the meanings of the term except for the one that let you make a snide correction of someone else, and the person you are correcting made a statement that was correct and comprehensible for any meaning of the word rather than just the one that you seem to approve of.

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3479 on: December 07, 2020, 07:01:16 AM »
You mean one for the Average Joe and one for the person who knows what it means.

This is a pretty snide comment, given that the distinction is both unimportant to the point and incomplete in its pedantry.
Maybe it's because I am a pedandric German, but I think:
It's only a snide comment to those who have slept during math 6th class.

If you think it's unimportant, then let me ask you this: Do you care if you earn $2000 or $3000 a month?
Because that is the unimportant, pedantric difference between average and median income.

It's like those people who think a maximum tax rate of 50% means they have to pay 50% on the first dollar.

You just can't have a successful communication if even those basics of meaning are not clear.
No, it isn't like that at all. Let's not derail the derailment even further. Cue Elsa singing "Let It Go".

simmias

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3480 on: December 07, 2020, 07:09:12 AM »
This used to be my favorite thread.

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3481 on: December 07, 2020, 07:10:28 AM »
This used to be my favorite thread.
It will be again.

YYK

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3482 on: December 07, 2020, 07:58:54 AM »
Note to self: don't use the p-word on the mustache forums

Adventine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3483 on: December 07, 2020, 08:08:33 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3484 on: December 07, 2020, 10:50:45 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.
Don't wait for good things to happen. Make them happen yourself!

BicycleB

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3485 on: December 07, 2020, 02:14:59 PM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

LOL. #wfhgoals

Adventine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3486 on: December 07, 2020, 03:07:43 PM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.
Don't wait for good things to happen. Make them happen yourself!
Ha! Maybe I'll put it in my email signature as a sneaky motivational quote, effective at evading management!

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3487 on: December 08, 2020, 12:55:31 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

Even if I was super annoyed at a firm and wanted to rage quit, I'd not do it in writing or in a cheeky/histrionic way. I don't think that helps anyone. It doesn't increase your leverage, it won't make your next employer/principal pay more, and it's not going to hurt your current employer (unless you're genuinely whistleblowing or something). Heck even if I were retiring and had no further need to maintain happy relations, I'd still bow out graciously. It's your actions (in leaving/negotiating) that count not your words!

Adventine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3488 on: December 08, 2020, 01:21:12 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

Even if I was super annoyed at a firm and wanted to rage quit, I'd not do it in writing or in a cheeky/histrionic way. I don't think that helps anyone. It doesn't increase your leverage, it won't make your next employer/principal pay more, and it's not going to hurt your current employer (unless you're genuinely whistleblowing or something). Heck even if I were retiring and had no further need to maintain happy relations, I'd still bow out graciously. It's your actions (in leaving/negotiating) that count not your words!

Oh yes, no arguments here. In real life, outside MMM Forumland, always better to bow out graciously and leave behind a good impression, no matter how unhappy someone has been in their job.

But in this tiny corner of the internet, it's fun to read the stories!

NorthernMonkey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3489 on: December 08, 2020, 04:26:29 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

Even if I was super annoyed at a firm and wanted to rage quit, I'd not do it in writing or in a cheeky/histrionic way. I don't think that helps anyone. It doesn't increase your leverage, it won't make your next employer/principal pay more, and it's not going to hurt your current employer (unless you're genuinely whistleblowing or something). Heck even if I were retiring and had no further need to maintain happy relations, I'd still bow out graciously. It's your actions (in leaving/negotiating) that count not your words!

Oh yes, no arguments here. In real life, outside MMM Forumland, always better to bow out graciously and leave behind a good impression, no matter how unhappy someone has been in their job.

But in this tiny corner of the internet, it's fun to read the stories!

I've seen it done. It was amazing to watch. Someone I worked with quit for another job. He was set to work his notice as normal which he did for a little while, then in the last few days he made a point of finding everyone who he had a minor gripe with and telling them exactly what he thought. It lasted for a couple of days before HR got wind and he was escorted off. (mega corp so things take a while to get traction) It was a couple of days of spectacular bridge burning extravaganza.

alcon835

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3490 on: December 08, 2020, 06:06:28 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

Even if I was super annoyed at a firm and wanted to rage quit, I'd not do it in writing or in a cheeky/histrionic way. I don't think that helps anyone. It doesn't increase your leverage, it won't make your next employer/principal pay more, and it's not going to hurt your current employer (unless you're genuinely whistleblowing or something). Heck even if I were retiring and had no further need to maintain happy relations, I'd still bow out graciously. It's your actions (in leaving/negotiating) that count not your words!

Oh yes, no arguments here. In real life, outside MMM Forumland, always better to bow out graciously and leave behind a good impression, no matter how unhappy someone has been in their job.

But in this tiny corner of the internet, it's fun to read the stories!

I'll add, most FU stories aren't all that dramatic in real life. The recent one with the CLO leaving the company because of a dispute with the CEO felt dramatic, but from the company's point of view, it was pretty ho-hum. She went to the CEO personally, she explained her problems and where to draw the line, she used the power of her role and her contract to get her out of the situation, and she was free to do all of that (even when the CEO pressured her to stop) because of her FU money.

That's what it's all about, having the freedom to hold your ground or make a choice that works for you. Heck, that's what FIRE is ultimately about as well.

Adventine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3491 on: December 08, 2020, 06:28:31 AM »
There's one extremely memorable FU Money post by Dr. Doom, near the start of this thread, that illustrates the kind of "I quit" moment that I want to witness. I've never had such a horrible manager, but damn it would be entertaining to see something like that in real life.

Green_Tea

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3492 on: December 08, 2020, 06:50:20 AM »
Maybe it's because I am a pedandric German, but I think:
It's only a snide comment to those who have slept during math 6th class.

If you think it's unimportant, then let me ask you this: Do you care if you earn $2000 or $3000 a month?
Because that is the unimportant, pedantric difference between average and median income.

Please don't advocate against German people!

I think you miss the point, that the average has 2 meanings: one in a mathematical sense in which only very few people make up the average (e.g. only very few people earn EXACTLY 2.000 Euros) and a broader meaning of "the majority in the middle" which in a normal distribution is localized around the average +/- some (as shown in "the average Joe").

You see, I like to be the clever one too, so I get where your comment comes from, but sometimes it's better to assume most other people are clever too and to interpret what they say the way they actually meant it and most people would interpret it that aren't "snobbish know-it-alls" ;)

Eh back to topic: love those FU-money-Stories ;D

Proud Foot

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3493 on: December 08, 2020, 09:07:36 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

Even if I was super annoyed at a firm and wanted to rage quit, I'd not do it in writing or in a cheeky/histrionic way. I don't think that helps anyone. It doesn't increase your leverage, it won't make your next employer/principal pay more, and it's not going to hurt your current employer (unless you're genuinely whistleblowing or something). Heck even if I were retiring and had no further need to maintain happy relations, I'd still bow out graciously. It's your actions (in leaving/negotiating) that count not your words!

Oh yes, no arguments here. In real life, outside MMM Forumland, always better to bow out graciously and leave behind a good impression, no matter how unhappy someone has been in their job.

But in this tiny corner of the internet, it's fun to read the stories!

I'll add, most FU stories aren't all that dramatic in real life. The recent one with the CLO leaving the company because of a dispute with the CEO felt dramatic, but from the company's point of view, it was pretty ho-hum. She went to the CEO personally, she explained her problems and where to draw the line, she used the power of her role and her contract to get her out of the situation, and she was free to do all of that (even when the CEO pressured her to stop) because of her FU money.

That's what it's all about, having the freedom to hold your ground or make a choice that works for you. Heck, that's what FIRE is ultimately about as well.

I haven't gotten the chance to read the document but my SIL was able to save it before the company wiped the email. There was a senior HR employee who sent their immediate resignation out and bcc'd the entire organization (4-5000 employees). The email just said they quit effective immediately and to read the attachment. The attachment was a 13 page document full of detailed accounts of inappropriate behavior, inconsistent application of policies, and gross misconduct within the department and organization as a whole.

By the River

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3494 on: December 08, 2020, 10:16:51 AM »
I've seen it done. It was amazing to watch. Someone I worked with quit for another job. He was set to work his notice as normal which he did for a little while, then in the last few days he made a point of finding everyone who he had a minor gripe with and telling them exactly what he thought. It lasted for a couple of days before HR got wind and he was escorted off. (mega corp so things take a while to get traction) It was a couple of days of spectacular bridge burning extravaganza.

Maybe he was just celebrating Festivus early

markbike528CBX

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3495 on: December 08, 2020, 10:19:21 AM »
I have always secretly wanted to witness an FU money story in person, but now that most people WFH, I haven't had the opportunity.

Maybe one of these days I'll receive a company-wide final rage quit email from someone... One can dream.

Even if I was super annoyed at a firm and wanted to rage quit, I'd not do it in writing or in a cheeky/histrionic way. I don't think that helps anyone. It doesn't increase your leverage, it won't make your next employer/principal pay more, and it's not going to hurt your current employer (unless you're genuinely whistleblowing or something). Heck even if I were retiring and had no further need to maintain happy relations, I'd still bow out graciously. It's your actions (in leaving/negotiating) that count not your words!

Oh yes, no arguments here. In real life, outside MMM Forumland, always better to bow out graciously and leave behind a good impression, no matter how unhappy someone has been in their job.

But in this tiny corner of the internet, it's fun to read the stories!

I'll add, most FU stories aren't all that dramatic in real life. The recent one with the CLO leaving the company because of a dispute with the CEO felt dramatic, but from the company's point of view, it was pretty ho-hum. She went to the CEO personally, she explained her problems and where to draw the line, she used the power of her role and her contract to get her out of the situation, and she was free to do all of that (even when the CEO pressured her to stop) because of her FU money.

That's what it's all about, having the freedom to hold your ground or make a choice that works for you. Heck, that's what FIRE is ultimately about as well.

I haven't gotten the chance to read the document but my SIL was able to save it before the company wiped the email. There was a senior HR employee who sent their immediate resignation out and bcc'd the entire organization (4-5000 employees). The email just said they quit effective immediately and to read the attachment. The attachment was a 13 page document full of detailed accounts of inappropriate behavior, inconsistent application of policies, and gross misconduct within the department and organization as a whole.

Oooh,oooh, please share it.  It sounds EPIC and might be FU money. 
Redacting names and identifying information of course, if you have the energy.  I'm back in COVID lockdown, so I'm searching for scraps of entertainment.

IsThisAGoodUsername

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3496 on: December 08, 2020, 10:24:54 AM »
I've seen it done. It was amazing to watch. Someone I worked with quit for another job. He was set to work his notice as normal which he did for a little while, then in the last few days he made a point of finding everyone who he had a minor gripe with and telling them exactly what he thought. It lasted for a couple of days before HR got wind and he was escorted off. (mega corp so things take a while to get traction) It was a couple of days of spectacular bridge burning extravaganza.

Maybe he was just celebrating Festivus early

Ah yes, the Airing of the Grievances!

nippycrisp

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3497 on: December 08, 2020, 11:02:48 AM »
Alright, we need a quitting story to reset things. This one's from 1998, and it's not mine, although I did witness it at close range.

My first real job was at a massive telemarketing company, trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to sell mail meters to businesses. After being trained to read the script, new telemarketers were held in a special area until we made a sale. This story is about Kwame, the sales runt of our litter.

Kwame’s Final Song

For every success in telemarketer hell there were hundreds of quiet disappointments. And with mounting failure came more unwanted attention from management. New employees that failed to convert their first score quickly began to feel the pressure to lose their sales virginity. The last holdout from our cohort was Kwame. Kwame was a nice guy, but a little too much ADD to hold down a sales job.
 
After two weeks without a single sale, Kwame was put back in training. When he came back, his calls were monitored by Marlene, the morbidly obese supervisor responsible for indoctrinating new hires. Often times, Marlene would sit next to Kwame, listening in on his calls - this is common in telemarketing, and the main reason phone salesmen don't easily quit - on a duplicate headset. As Kwame tried to work off the script, Marlene would whisper mostly-useless advice at him. Predictably, Kwame couldn’t handle juggling the script, a phone conversation and Marlene’s frantic wisdom (“Make them commit!”). As a result, his pitches grew ever more feeble and his sales remained unrealized.
 
After two more weeks of failure, it stood to reason that Kwame was not far from being put to pasture. It is surprising then, that his end came unexpectedly, and with more dignity than one might imagine.
 
For space reasons, Kwame had been released into the general population. On this particular day, he was sitting in the cubicle next to me. By now, Marlene had given up on live-coaching him, and had retreated to her office, where there was a TV that she used to watch her soaps. The theme of this day’s call list seemed to be sports-related businesses. Midway through the shift, Kwame drew a sports memorabilia shop. After making his halfhearted pitch unsuccessfully, Kwame brightened and asked if this year’s Topps Platinum Series MLB cards had arrived yet. What transpired next was a stunning example of reverse-telemarketing. Within minutes, the shop owner had apparently sweet-talked Kwame into buying something**.
 
There was one wrinkle, though: Kwame’s call was being monitored. Marlene the Manager had been listening, and she raced out from the back just as Kwame began reading off his credit card info into the phone. Marlene moved to intercept, but her pillowy body was too wide to fit down the narrow aisle of back-to-back telemarketers. You could hear the squishy collisions grow louder as she bounce-brushed hapless workers on her authority-fueled charge.
 
“Hang up the phone, Kwame!” Marlene commanded, eyes blazing as she plodded towards him. Kwame’s gaze traveled between Marlene, the credit card already in hand, and the rows of phone drones mumbling into their headsets around him. By the time he refocused on Marlene, it was clear he’d made a tactical decision to continue the transaction. Without saying a word, he ignored the supervisor’s imperative and continued feeding his credit card info into the phone.
 
Marlene verbally fired Kwame one second later. He nodded understandingly and put up a finger, asking for silence to complete his final transaction (for the record, this left his lifetime sales total with Marketing Solutions at an impressive minus one). Marlene, apparently drunk on the tiny amount of power she wielded, decided to escalate the situation, again ordering Kwame to hang up, and adding that he needed to pack up his shit immediately. Kwame took this with surprising equanimity, raising his voice only enough to be heard over the irate supervisor.
 
By this point, the altercation has attracted a crowd of interested onlookers. With Marlene so spectacularly deployed, everyone knew that the gestapo wasn't listening in. As a result, work ground to a halt as four-hundred depressed telemarketers watched the unfolding show. And what a show it was. Marlene was apoplectic, cursing out Kwame. For his part, Kwame was struggling to complete his purchase over her histrionics, and was simultaneously screaming his credit card information into the phone for all to hear.
 
In a perfect storm moment, Marlene dropped the N-word at exactly the same time Kwame’s credit card was declined. The mercurial Kwame finally exploded, splitting his fire between Marlene, the poor store owner, and Mastercard. After a furious minute of back-and-forth, Kwame rose and proceeded to leap on top of his swivel chair. “Fuck you!” he screamed into the phone. “Fuck you!” he repeated as he threw the phone's receiver at Marlene. The handset reached the end of its cord and jerked backwards with only centimeters to spare before striking Marlene between the eyes. Marlene pinwheeled backwards, jiggling mightily before dropping into what appeared to be a modified judo stance. “And fuck you!” Kwame added, jabbing a finger towards the small group of managers who’d appeared in response to the ruckus. Kwame rotated violently in my direction and leveled a finger at me. I flinched in anticipating of some overflow anger, readying myself to defend against a possible flip-kick.
 
At the last second, Mount Kwame became dormant. “You’re all cool,” he announced to the shocked crowd in a softer voice. Momentum spent, he hopped off the chair and headed for the front door, the last time any of us ever saw him. 

For those interested in life at this place during the last wave of telemarketing, this is part of a larger story I wrote here: https://www.ofmiceandmolecules.com/the-last-telemarketer.html

**These were early internet days where this sort of thing still happened.

ETA: Kwame's FU Money status was unknown, but he drove a Huffy, so his expenses were low.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 11:08:17 AM by nippycrisp »

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3498 on: December 08, 2020, 11:24:15 AM »
I love that. Telemarketing is such a crazy job. In college I worked a short stint on the phones and at our office, everyone was either a college kid or an alcoholic with nowhere else to work. When I decided to quit I just stopped showing up and nobody ever called or checked up on me, I just stopped getting checks. I imagine most places are a revolving door.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3499 on: December 08, 2020, 12:42:08 PM »
I love that. Telemarketing is such a crazy job. In college I worked a short stint on the phones and at our office, everyone was either a college kid or an alcoholic with nowhere else to work. When I decided to quit I just stopped showing up and nobody ever called or checked up on me, I just stopped getting checks. I imagine most places are a revolving door.

Aggg.  I'm not good with sales, multitasking, or pressure.  I'd like to think that I'd have similar grace to Kwame.  Based on the evidence of my career, the Magic 8 Ball says "NO F...g way dude!" .

https://www.indra.com/cgi-bin/spikes-8-ball