Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 489452 times)

Papa bear

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #950 on: January 12, 2016, 12:58:41 PM »

Also it seems totally irrelevant what terminology you would use with a potential employer, as most can and will call your former employer anyway, and your former employer will almost certainly not have an issue using the term fired if you were in fact fired for any reason (poor performance, sexual harassment, stealing, damaging company property, etc).
This is in fact not true.  Legally it's a big problem, specifically in California.  (I can't speak for other areas)

We've been instructed by our HR that if we are called for reference for former employees, we are ONLY allowed to confirm their employment.  Otherwise, it can be construed as interfering with a person's livelihood.

(I mean, all sorts of back door phone calls happen anyway, when you know someone who knows someone.)  By the way, this goes for good AND bad employees.

Really?  I don't have any first hand experience, but I always thought that was the purpose of calling former employers.  Seems really pointless if they are not allowed to disclose any information other than the person did in fact worked there (or not).  I mean if you were fired for a violent offense, or stealing/damaging company property, or not being able to perform your job (i've worked with people that could not perform basic tasks that were fundamental to their job) it would be critical information to the new employer.  It also defies the entire premise of a reference.  I mean what good is a reference if all my former employer can legally say is "yes frugalnacho worked here until X date"?

EDIT: I'm not a lawyer, but every single source I am finding on a quick google search is telling me you are wrong.  Your company may in fact have this policy, but the first 5 sources I checked said this is a common misconception and there is in fact no laws barring an employer from disclosing that information if they choose to.

In my experience, most organizations have an HR policy that limits information given in references.  (Some will outsource this information to third party firms, such as The Work Number) However, most candidates will provide references that will provide information "outside" of the HR policy.  Candidates that provide references that can't give any information usually don't have any good references to give.

Very rarely will you have a reference that will come out and say that the person was fired. 

Calling on references from a candidate's former organization typically will NOT yield information about if they were fired. Calling the HR department will almost certainly not yield that information.


Source: I've conducted thousands of references nationally.


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mtn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #951 on: January 12, 2016, 01:26:11 PM »
My last job, the supervisor wouldn't give the [phenomenal] intern a recommendation/reference for another internship... with her school. HR policy was that strict.


frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #952 on: January 12, 2016, 01:37:35 PM »
As has been established in this thread and countless other threads on the forum the HR department of most companies are usually divorced from reality, have policies that don't make logical sense, and are usually ill informed.  I understand erring on the side of caution and not wanting to bad mouth an employee (even if true) for liability reasons*, but I can't think of any reason not to give a positive recommendation for a phenomenal employee. 

* Actually I don't understand it after reading up on the laws.  It seems most states not only are you allowed to disclose that information, but many states have specifically drafted immunity laws to protect former employers for this exact situation. 

mtn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #953 on: January 12, 2016, 01:44:32 PM »
As has been established in this thread and countless other threads on the forum the HR department of most companies are usually divorced from reality, have policies that don't make logical sense, and are usually ill informed.  I understand erring on the side of caution and not wanting to bad mouth an employee (even if true) for liability reasons*, but I can't think of any reason not to give a positive recommendation for a phenomenal employee. 

* Actually I don't understand it after reading up on the laws.  It seems most states not only are you allowed to disclose that information, but many states have specifically drafted immunity laws to protect former employers for this exact situation.

I know that the reason my last company had the “Yes he worked here” or “No, he did not work here” policy was the following true story, although I’m not sure if it was my former company or another one that had the experience:

A guy was hired, and he regularly brought a gun to work—in a secured office with little chance of anything happening. Not only did he bring it, he put it on his desk while he was working. This made a lot of people uncomfortable. When the company tried to tell them, he went all 2nd amendment on them. It was going to be a long tedious process of either firing him and having lawsuits, or figuring out a way to not let the guy bring it in. Eventually they paid him off with a severance package and a glowing letter of recommendation (and his work was phenomenal), and he got a new job. About 5 months into the new job, he goes off the deep end and kills someone with the gun.

The company that had hired him went after the company that wrote the recommendation. Not sure what the outcome was.

frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #954 on: January 12, 2016, 01:48:05 PM »
As has been established in this thread and countless other threads on the forum the HR department of most companies are usually divorced from reality, have policies that don't make logical sense, and are usually ill informed.  I understand erring on the side of caution and not wanting to bad mouth an employee (even if true) for liability reasons*, but I can't think of any reason not to give a positive recommendation for a phenomenal employee. 

* Actually I don't understand it after reading up on the laws.  It seems most states not only are you allowed to disclose that information, but many states have specifically drafted immunity laws to protect former employers for this exact situation.

I know that the reason my last company had the “Yes he worked here” or “No, he did not work here” policy was the following true story, although I’m not sure if it was my former company or another one that had the experience:

A guy was hired, and he regularly brought a gun to work—in a secured office with little chance of anything happening. Not only did he bring it, he put it on his desk while he was working. This made a lot of people uncomfortable. When the company tried to tell them, he went all 2nd amendment on them. It was going to be a long tedious process of either firing him and having lawsuits, or figuring out a way to not let the guy bring it in. Eventually they paid him off with a severance package and a glowing letter of recommendation (and his work was phenomenal), and he got a new job. About 5 months into the new job, he goes off the deep end and kills someone with the gun.

The company that had hired him went after the company that wrote the recommendation. Not sure what the outcome was.

Odd.  That anecdote actually seems to be in support of HR being more truthful and open, not more restrictive and secretive.

mtn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #955 on: January 12, 2016, 01:50:28 PM »
Not when you can consider the employee could sue for slander/libel if he doesn't like the tone. Just easier to say "Yes" or "No".

frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #956 on: January 12, 2016, 02:02:56 PM »
Not when you can consider the employee could sue for slander/libel if he doesn't like the tone. Just easier to say "Yes" or "No".

But they can't, i've already posted the laws saying they can't.  It's not slander/libel if it's true. The real issue is whether he has a right to carry a fire arm into work and whether he can be fired for that reason.  Most job sites I work on (in several states) have a very strict no firearm policy.  You are not even allowed to have it in your car on company property, and almost every one of them stresses this fact before we are allowed onsite, and they also have it posted near all the entrance gates.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that none of these large multi-billion dollar companies are violating the law by not allowing firearms onsite, because they all do it, and they all have been doing it for my entire career.  Your company absolutely could have a made a no firearm policy, and fired him for violating that (after the rule was established and he was made aware of it obviously), and they could have absolutely disclosed that fact to other potential employers and could not have been sued over it. 

Chris22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #957 on: January 12, 2016, 02:10:06 PM »
Not when you can consider the employee could sue for slander/libel if he doesn't like the tone. Just easier to say "Yes" or "No".

But they can't, i've already posted the laws saying they can't.  It's not slander/libel if it's true.

What you're saying is true, BUT, it's up to the company to fight the battle in court to clear itself.  MUCH easier to institute a blanket policy "don't say anything".  Even being right can be expensive in terms of legal fees.
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mistershankly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #958 on: January 12, 2016, 02:17:58 PM »
Not when you can consider the employee could sue for slander/libel if he doesn't like the tone. Just easier to say "Yes" or "No".

But they can't, i've already posted the laws saying they can't.  It's not slander/libel if it's true. The real issue is whether he has a right to carry a fire arm into work and whether he can be fired for that reason.  Most job sites I work on (in several states) have a very strict no firearm policy.  You are not even allowed to have it in your car on company property, and almost every one of them stresses this fact before we are allowed onsite, and they also have it posted near all the entrance gates.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that none of these large multi-billion dollar companies are violating the law by not allowing firearms onsite, because they all do it, and they all have been doing it for my entire career.  Your company absolutely could have a made a no firearm policy, and fired him for violating that (after the rule was established and he was made aware of it obviously), and they could have absolutely disclosed that fact to other potential employers and could not have been sued over it.

What the law says and doesn't say has little to do with what transpires in a mediation if a former employee files a lawsuit.  Most businesses would rather clamp down on disclosure of information than deal with the costs of mediation and possible litigation.  Logical/legal or not, this is the reality that business owners need to contend with.  Unfortunately, the hiring process for the majority of skilled and good people are clouded with the "what if they or the next employer sues" fears of their former employer.  Yes, it is frustrating and unfair but this is the legal climate we all (predominantly in the U.S.) live in these days.

Rural

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #959 on: January 12, 2016, 04:00:44 PM »
Its a liability issue. I listed my former supervisor at a govt agency as a reference and he flat out refused to say anything other than referring them to HR. I finally had to call and ask a personal favor before he would give an OK reference. Every other supervisor was more than happy to say something.

I didn't include it in my post above, but the one caveat all those sources mentioned is that the information must be true.  That shouldn't really have to be listed as a caveat though.  If you get fired for stealing, what liability is the company assuming by relaying that fact to potential employers?  I could understand if they suspected you of something but couldn't prove it, but fired you anyway because it's an at-will agreement and they can fire you, that they shouldn't be allowed to pass on that information.  But if it's factual  I don't understand where the liability comes into play.


 When I worked in management, we would do nothing more than confirm dates of employment  to reference calls.  We're not in California, not even close, and the concern was liability.

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #960 on: January 12, 2016, 04:09:36 PM »
Large tech companies up here won't fire you for poor performance because it's  ... just ... too ... much ... trouble.  It's cheaper to "lay you off" and give you a severance package to end the relationship quickly and cleanly.   To get fired, you have to sexually harass somebody, or break the law on company premises, or something of this nature.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #961 on: January 12, 2016, 04:57:38 PM »
What's so upsetting is companies that require references, for example two references within the past 6-12 months, yet have a policy of only confirming the dates the employee worked there.

My wife would just walk around with a stack of blank reference forms (with fields such as hospital worked at, dates, the person's name giving the review, and a comment area). Toward the end of a contract she gets 3-5 people to fill one out for her (this isn't a problem, she's universally liked by all). One contract had this standard policy (prospective employee had to have multiple recent references, but they wouldn't allow references to be given) and were quite surprised that she, in fact, had references. Not just one or two, but a whole stack of them.

We (she) needed an official reference from one hospital for immigration purposes (we're from the US, went to Australia). Basically it had to say she was a competent nurse, was working there for X amount of time, etc. They wouldn't do it (the competent part). Immigration was not happy with the "Yes she worked here" letter, so we had to get another "Our policy is to only give dates of employment to any reference request"; luckily that was sufficient (though I'm guessing the immigration officer was scratching her head over that one).

Once we got the visa approved, she had need of said reference when she was applying for a nursing job in Australia. They absolutely required a letter from her manager stating she was a competent nurse and the dates she worked for them. Well, technically she didn't work for the hospital, she worked for an agency. So she got her recruiter to write her reference letter (on official company letterhead). That made them happy. They called him, apparently he sang her praises because they even commented on the glowing reference he gave her.

Needless to say, if/when we go back to the US and she takes up travel nursing again, we'll give strong preference to that particular recruiter.

Edit: I should probably throw in something FU money related.

As previously mentioned, my wife did travel nursing. Every contract she worked she got an offer to extend. She wanted the holidays off, so would simply not extend through those months, even if begged to. One hospital she worked at was pretty bad and she didn't want to go back (if you're reading this and recognize her...no, we're not talking about you, we're talking about that other hospital). The people were nice, just not the working environment (nowhere near enough staff). She simply didn't accept the extension. No bridges burned, no quitting after a couple months. Had we been desperate for money not only would she have stayed at that extremely stressful hospital, but she would have missed a lot of holidays while the kids were (are) still young.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 05:11:46 PM by NumberJohnny5 »

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #962 on: January 12, 2016, 08:28:18 PM »
Large tech companies up here won't fire you for poor performance because it's  ... just ... too ... much ... trouble.  It's cheaper to "lay you off"
If you are only getting rid of one person there isn't usually much difference between "fired" and "redundancy".
You pay them off for the notice period and get them out of the door fast.

It only really matters when you are dumping a % high enough to trigger union or shareholder reporting requirements

rockstache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #963 on: January 13, 2016, 08:48:46 PM »

Also it seems totally irrelevant what terminology you would use with a potential employer, as most can and will call your former employer anyway, and your former employer will almost certainly not have an issue using the term fired if you were in fact fired for any reason (poor performance, sexual harassment, stealing, damaging company property, etc).
This is in fact not true.  Legally it's a big problem, specifically in California.  (I can't speak for other areas)

We've been instructed by our HR that if we are called for reference for former employees, we are ONLY allowed to confirm their employment.  Otherwise, it can be construed as interfering with a person's livelihood.

(I mean, all sorts of back door phone calls happen anyway, when you know someone who knows someone.)  By the way, this goes for good AND bad employees.

In my state it is the same way. The only thing that anyone can do is confirm that someone worked here.

Are you sure this is state law and not just your companies HR policy?

As for mm1970's state of california this is the information I found:

Quote
California

Cal. Civ. Code § 47(c); Cal. Lab. Code §§ 1053, 1055

Information that may be disclosed:

• job performance

• reasons for termination or separation

• knowledge, qualifications, skills, or abilities based upon credible evidence

• eligibility for rehire

Who may request or receive information:

• prospective employer

Employer required to write letter:

• public utility companies only

Not that I intentionally want to be argumentative, but I trust the actual laws of california rather than what your HR department has relayed to you.  Maybe I am mistaken, but I just went and read the law for myself and it seems like they certainly can disclose the reason you were fired to a potential employer that asks.

I'm not in California so I don't know what they do there. We don't have an HR department either, it's just what the bosses have told us is the only legal response. I've never cared enough to check.

Toymiester

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #964 on: January 14, 2016, 07:20:51 AM »
Here is one that actually is relevant to the topic

The setting was a Government agency, during a reorg placing employees is top priority.  Often the displaced person in a new position is unwelcome.  Even treated hostile.  Sometimes it’s a bad fit of job skills, sometimes it is simply the manager not getting to fill the position with who they would have chosen.

Samuel was placed in our office and was a bad fit and was not warmly received by our micromanager boss, Barb.  She lived to walk around each morning to see who came in on time, pour over time sheets, and check documents for proper punctuation but rarely added much content or value to the process.  Samuel was quiet and put up with this for 3 ½ years rarely divulging much about himself.  He always brought in his own lunch, occasionally mentioned his rental properties and drove a Toyota from early last decade.  He was sure proud of his later-in-life small child who was in every picture with his stay at home wife photos that covered his desk.  Unassuming is the word that would describe this guy, you could easily overlook him.

One day, on a Wednesday Barb came by and asked if anyone had heard from Samuel, he had been on vacation for two weeks and was due back Monday.  She only had his landline and he had shut it off some time ago.  Was he alright?  She did not want to be inconvenienced to drive over to his home to check on him so she reported him AWOL, Absent without Leave. Off went the report.  I am sure that she spent all morning documenting that she did everything right, all according with the appropriate regulation. HR, said he is not AWOL, he is retired.

HE CAN”T RETIRE! Barb said! He did not get me to sign off on that!

Now that is a FU story. 

Edit to English in punch line, I hate when that happens, thanks to Diane C for letting me know.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 11:54:12 AM by Toymiester »


mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #966 on: January 14, 2016, 09:11:00 AM »
Here is one that actually is relevant to the topic

The setting was a Government agency, during a reorg placing employees is top priority.  Often the displaced person in a new position is unwelcome.  Even treated hostile.  Sometimes it’s a bad fit of job skills, sometimes it is simply the manager not getting to fill the position with who they would have chosen.

Samuel was placed in our office and was a bad fit and was not warmly received by our micromanager boss, Barb.  She lived to walk around each morning to see who came in on time, pour over time sheets, and check documents for proper punctuation but rarely added much content or value to the process.  Samuel was quiet and put up with this for 3 ½ years rarely divulging much about himself.  He always brought in his own lunch, occasionally mentioned his rental properties and drove a Toyota from early last decade.  He was sure proud of his later-in-life small child who was in every picture with his stay at home wife pictures that covered his desk.  Unassuming is the word that would describe this guy, you could easily overlook him.

One day, on a Wednesday Barb came by and asked if anyone had heard from Samuel, he had been on vacation for two weeks and was due back Monday.  She only had his landline and he had shut it off some time ago.  Was he alright?  She did not want to be inconvenienced to drive over to his home to check on him so she reported him AWOL, Absent without Leave. Off went the report.  I am sure that she spent all morning documenting that she did everything right, all according with the appropriate regulation. HR, said he is not AWOL, he is retired.

HE CAN”T RETIRE! Barb said! He did get me to sign off on that!

Now that is a FU story.

Yes, this is awesome!

zephyr911

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #967 on: January 14, 2016, 09:27:18 AM »
HE CAN”T RETIRE! Barb said! He did get me to sign off on that!
Dude, the way my command tracks HR actions, I don't think I could pull that off, but I can imagine situations in which I'd try.
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frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #968 on: January 14, 2016, 10:01:09 AM »
haha, FUCK YOU BARB!

MrsWhipple

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #969 on: January 14, 2016, 05:23:34 PM »
Wow, that Barb story is amazing!

russianswinga

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #970 on: January 14, 2016, 05:29:03 PM »
haha, FUCK YOU BARB!

For some reason that reminded me of this "retirement" scene in the movie Wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7CXtxOflI

With This Herring

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #971 on: January 14, 2016, 06:21:06 PM »
Replying to follow.  :)
Because your toaster got hacked because you tried to watch porn on your blender.

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Go soak your beans.  You know you keep forgetting.
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happy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #972 on: January 14, 2016, 07:30:22 PM »
Go Samuel, made me smile.
Journalling at Happy Aussie Downshifter

pachnik

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #973 on: January 14, 2016, 08:16:37 PM »
Go Samuel, made me smile.

Me too!   He could easily be one of us.

MoonShadow

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #974 on: January 14, 2016, 09:22:53 PM »
haha, FUCK YOU BARB!

For some reason that reminded me of this "retirement" scene in the movie Wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7CXtxOflI

On the short list of greatest movies of all time, IMHO.

albireo13

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #975 on: January 15, 2016, 07:26:06 AM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".    LOL

  So, basically they want to hire the best but expect to pay the average.  Of, course life doesn't work that way and the "best" would leave for elsewhere.

LOL    : )

Kitsune

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #976 on: January 15, 2016, 08:15:29 AM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".    LOL

  So, basically they want to hire the best but expect to pay the average.  Of, course life doesn't work that way and the "best" would leave for elsewhere.

LOL    : )

And then, if they're anything like my old company, they've have eternal and endless 'all management' meetings to discuss the 'retention issue'. Of course, suggestions like 'enable flex time arrangements', or 'pay them what they're worth and what they're leaving for because others are paying those salaries right down the street', were rejected.

There's a reason I'm no longer working there, is all I'm sayin...

Pooperman

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #977 on: January 15, 2016, 08:56:16 AM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".    LOL

  So, basically they want to hire the best but expect to pay the average.  Of, course life doesn't work that way and the "best" would leave for elsewhere.

LOL    : )

And then, if they're anything like my old company, they've have eternal and endless 'all management' meetings to discuss the 'retention issue'. Of course, suggestions like 'enable flex time arrangements', or 'pay them what they're worth and what they're leaving for because others are paying those salaries right down the street', were rejected.

There's a reason I'm no longer working there, is all I'm sayin...

Did you tell them that in the exit interview?

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #978 on: January 15, 2016, 09:02:41 AM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".   
We just wasted half a day in a meeting about recruitment problems presented by a bunch of expensive HR consultants waving an expensive report  (we paid $x0,000 for) which shows average salaries in our area and nationally - and picked the lowest.

I attempted to point out that paying the average meant you get the people that 50% of your competitors rejected.
That salary surveys under-report the truth because they faithfully count lots of low end salary jobs and don't count the secretly negotiated salaries of rock star programmers
And that we might want to look at remote workers given that we are located in one of the worlds highest COL cities

Don't think I'm invited to the next meeting

AZDude

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #979 on: January 15, 2016, 09:08:55 AM »
Don't think I'm invited to the next meeting

So then a big win for you?

zephyr911

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #980 on: January 15, 2016, 12:03:28 PM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".    LOL

  So, basically they want to hire the best but expect to pay the average.  Of, course life doesn't work that way and the "best" would leave for elsewhere.

LOL    : )
And then, if they're anything like my old company, they've have eternal and endless 'all management' meetings to discuss the 'retention issue'. Of course, suggestions like 'enable flex time arrangements', or 'pay them what they're worth and what they're leaving for because others are paying those salaries right down the street', were rejected.

There's a reason I'm no longer working there, is all I'm sayin...
It's truly amazing how much inertia, apathy, and lack of common sense there is in middle management. I'm truly lucky to have the super I do. He fought for alternate work schedules, is now fighting for routine telework, etc.
It's so bad (good) that I'm losing my zeal for FIRE.... ahahaha
I am not a cog. I am an organizational lubricant.

Chris22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #981 on: January 15, 2016, 12:40:15 PM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".   
We just wasted half a day in a meeting about recruitment problems presented by a bunch of expensive HR consultants waving an expensive report  (we paid $x0,000 for) which shows average salaries in our area and nationally - and picked the lowest.

I attempted to point out that paying the average meant you get the people that 50% of your competitors rejected.
That salary surveys under-report the truth because they faithfully count lots of low end salary jobs and don't count the secretly negotiated salaries of rock star programmers
And that we might want to look at remote workers given that we are located in one of the worlds highest COL cities

Don't think I'm invited to the next meeting

I was 18 months into working for my current employer, and two guys in another group approached me about joining their group to fill an empty role.  Great.  They talked about more visibility, responsibility, etc etc etc.  I eventually agreed, and then they went to HR to get them to make me an offer.  HR determined I was already highly paid, and they'd give me $0.00 to move.  I balked, and eventually a promise by the CEO to help me out come raise time got me to take the role, and in fairness, he did come through for me; got about a $7k raise (about $2500 of which I would have gotten as a COL increase anyways).  That put me around $92k IIRC.  And I worked about 5 months in the new role at the old pay.

I did well, and a year later I was promoted again, to managing my old role.  This time they did a reasonable job taking care of me $$-wise.  So I put out a req for my old role, and HR told me I had a budget of $90k to hire someone.  Eventually decided on a candidate (external) and the HR guys came back and said to hire that guy, we need to offer $99k, 10% over my budget.  I asked, uh, what can we do, and they said, oh don't worry, go ahead with the $99k offer.  WTF?

So for a guy, me, who was approached about filling a role, came with a proven track record at the company, I had to fight for a raise and got ~8%, of which a third I was going to get anyways. 

OTOH, for someone who was entirely unknown, no history at all, external hire, we paid him 10% over our plan (and $7k over what I was getting for the same role) with no blinks or hesitation at all.

Doesn't make sense to me at all.  And by the way, guy we hired turned out to be a shithead we've almost fired 2x now and is on "double secret probation".

"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #982 on: January 15, 2016, 05:51:05 PM »
The only way to get a raise is to leave and return.

It's bad in areas like banking/consultancy - you get hired at market salary in the market when you were hired.
So people that happened to get hired in booms are being paid 30% more than others, and every year your increment is a % of your salary.


scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #983 on: January 15, 2016, 06:02:09 PM »
I've had some good raises.  Last time I was promoted, I received a 12% raise I wasn't expecting.  I have never ever *threatened* to leave.   Like zephyr911 said:   
Quote
I'm truly lucky to have the super I do.
   This can make all the difference.

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #984 on: January 15, 2016, 06:50:12 PM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".    LOL

  So, basically they want to hire the best but expect to pay the average.  Of, course life doesn't work that way and the "best" would leave for elsewhere.

LOL    : )
And then, if they're anything like my old company, they've have eternal and endless 'all management' meetings to discuss the 'retention issue'. Of course, suggestions like 'enable flex time arrangements', or 'pay them what they're worth and what they're leaving for because others are paying those salaries right down the street', were rejected.

There's a reason I'm no longer working there, is all I'm sayin...
It's truly amazing how much inertia, apathy, and lack of common sense there is in middle management. I'm truly lucky to have the super I do. He fought for alternate work schedules, is now fighting for routine telework, etc.
It's so bad (good) that I'm losing my zeal for FIRE.... ahahaha
I fought for that stuff back when I was a manager.  It was super hard.  In our case, it was hands on shift work, so what I fought for was a shift differential.  I eventually won, but then they took it away, because my employees were salaried.  "We don't have to give it to them."  "No, but it's fucking shitty that you are requiring them to work 6 pm to 6 am and on weekends.  You give the differential to the hourly employees, so you are just being an ass."

jlajr

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #985 on: January 15, 2016, 10:13:41 PM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".    LOL

  So, basically they want to hire the best but expect to pay the average.  Of, course life doesn't work that way and the "best" would leave for elsewhere.

LOL    : )

And then, if they're anything like my old company, they've have eternal and endless 'all management' meetings to discuss the 'retention issue'. Of course, suggestions like 'enable flex time arrangements', or 'pay them what they're worth and what they're leaving for because others are paying those salaries right down the street', were rejected.

There's a reason I'm no longer working there, is all I'm sayin...

These.

In April 2015, someone decided to lay off three people on my team of 16, including the manager with 24 years of experience with the products and a lead with 29 years of experience with the products. As part of my business unit's retention initiative, my new manager about a week ago asks me into his office and asks me if I plan on leaving in the next five years. Are you fucking kidding me? Besides the obvious - that is, if you want to retain knowledge, be as productive as possible, and produce the highest quality work, then don't lay your best people off without any knowledge transfer and retain/reward incompetency - I told him it was beyond unacceptable to ask me that question. I might answer the question honestly on an anonymous employee survey - which we had last year. I'm not about to allow them to attribute an answer to me, at which point it becomes a verbal commitment.

I didn't even realize it at the time, because I was a little stunned by the question, but it didn't even occur to me that if my situation remains the same, I should reach FIRE in 5-10 years. I would likely leave or significantly curtail my employment at that point. While other colleagues are aware I am contemplating FIRE in a general sense, I don't discuss specific figures and timelines. Anyway, while I doubt that has filtered back to my manager, you never know.

AlanStache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #986 on: January 16, 2016, 07:07:40 AM »
... I'm not about to allow them to attribute an answer to me, at which point it becomes a verbal commitment.
...

Saying you intend to stay for X years could be legally binding in your country?!?!?  Like if you left early they could sue or deny retirement benefits  due to losses because you had left?
Be the person Mr. Rogers knows you can be.

ender

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #987 on: January 16, 2016, 09:08:46 AM »
... I'm not about to allow them to attribute an answer to me, at which point it becomes a verbal commitment.
...

Saying you intend to stay for X years could be legally binding in your country?!?!?  Like if you left early they could sue or deny retirement benefits  due to losses because you had left?

Some people might feel bad saying something like that knowing it's not going to be true.

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #988 on: January 16, 2016, 04:58:24 PM »
I work for a large high tech company. I often got a chuckle over how they would be selective about hiring, claiming that they wanted only "the best talent".
Of course the salary structure was unimpressive.  When asked about increasing salaries for engineers the official response was that the pay was "competitive and consistent with the industry average".   
We just wasted half a day in a meeting about recruitment problems presented by a bunch of expensive HR consultants waving an expensive report  (we paid $x0,000 for) which shows average salaries in our area and nationally - and picked the lowest.

I attempted to point out that paying the average meant you get the people that 50% of your competitors rejected.
That salary surveys under-report the truth because they faithfully count lots of low end salary jobs and don't count the secretly negotiated salaries of rock star programmers
And that we might want to look at remote workers given that we are located in one of the worlds highest COL cities

Don't think I'm invited to the next meeting

I was 18 months into working for my current employer, and two guys in another group approached me about joining their group to fill an empty role.  Great.  They talked about more visibility, responsibility, etc etc etc.  I eventually agreed, and then they went to HR to get them to make me an offer.  HR determined I was already highly paid, and they'd give me $0.00 to move.  I balked, and eventually a promise by the CEO to help me out come raise time got me to take the role, and in fairness, he did come through for me; got about a $7k raise (about $2500 of which I would have gotten as a COL increase anyways).  That put me around $92k IIRC.  And I worked about 5 months in the new role at the old pay.

I did well, and a year later I was promoted again, to managing my old role.  This time they did a reasonable job taking care of me $$-wise.  So I put out a req for my old role, and HR told me I had a budget of $90k to hire someone.  Eventually decided on a candidate (external) and the HR guys came back and said to hire that guy, we need to offer $99k, 10% over my budget.  I asked, uh, what can we do, and they said, oh don't worry, go ahead with the $99k offer.  WTF?

So for a guy, me, who was approached about filling a role, came with a proven track record at the company, I had to fight for a raise and got ~8%, of which a third I was going to get anyways. 

OTOH, for someone who was entirely unknown, no history at all, external hire, we paid him 10% over our plan (and $7k over what I was getting for the same role) with no blinks or hesitation at all.

Doesn't make sense to me at all.  And by the way, guy we hired turned out to be a shithead we've almost fired 2x now and is on "double secret probation".

Yeah...sounds familiar. I was promoted into a new role at my previous employer, then got my annual raise, then got another promotion, and was still making $4k less than the outside guy (in the same position) was making three years previously when he was initially hired.

MoonShadow

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #989 on: January 16, 2016, 05:12:00 PM »
... I'm not about to allow them to attribute an answer to me, at which point it becomes a verbal commitment.
...

Saying you intend to stay for X years could be legally binding in your country?!?!? Like if you left early they could sue or deny retirement benefits  due to losses because you had left?

No, not like that.

jlajr

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #990 on: January 17, 2016, 12:25:29 AM »
... I'm not about to allow them to attribute an answer to me, at which point it becomes a verbal commitment.
...

Saying you intend to stay for X years could be legally binding in your country?!?!?  Like if you left early they could sue or deny retirement benefits  due to losses because you had left?

I have no idea whether it is legally binding in my country, but I'd also rather not have to find out.

Asking the question to me is just as unacceptable as me asking him if the company is going to lay me off/fire me/sack me/terminate my employment agreement in that time period. He wouldn't answer that question, so I can't understand why they think I would answer their question for attribution. Anonymously, maybe.

TomTX

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #991 on: January 17, 2016, 06:38:13 AM »
... I'm not about to allow them to attribute an answer to me, at which point it becomes a verbal commitment.
...

Saying you intend to stay for X years could be legally binding in your country?!?!?  Like if you left early they could sue or deny retirement benefits  due to losses because you had left?

I have no idea whether it is legally binding in my country, but I'd also rather not have to find out.

Asking the question to me is just as unacceptable as me asking him if the company is going to lay me off/fire me/sack me/terminate my employment agreement in that time period. He wouldn't answer that question, so I can't understand why they think I would answer their question for attribution. Anonymously, maybe.

"I have no plans to resign or retire."

Unless you have a signed offer letter in hand from another employer, you don't have a plan.

jlajr

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #992 on: January 17, 2016, 10:32:24 PM »
"I have no plans to resign or retire."

Unless you have a signed offer letter in hand from another employer, you don't have a plan.

Well, a few weeks ago, I came across the idea of mini-retirement, so a plan wouldn't necessarily depend on a signed offer letter in hand from another employer.

Nonetheless, I appreciate your point.

coin

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #993 on: January 18, 2016, 09:55:31 PM »
This thread is a thing of beauty and justice, I am awed.

My coworker at my previous job was a friend of mine and revealed that he was getting paid a couple dollars more an hour than me. Doesn't sound like much more but it worked out to about $5000 per annum.

I was more experienced and had qualifications (that they needed to maintain multi-million dollar contracts) that my buddy didn't, so the pay gap made absolutely no sense because he had not negotiated at all with them and we were doing the exact same job.  I brought it up with them, they told me tough shit and they weren't going to make us equal. Then I accused them of gender discrimination because it suddenly occurred to me I was the only lady performing this job and they denied, denied, denied.

Even if it wasn't gender discrimination, they could have brought our pays in line and I would have shut up and gone back to work rather than spend three weeks in meetings and arguing with them about how they weren't following their own policy. They could have saved money right there!

By that stage I decided to quit in a few weeks whether or not I had found a new job. I get the impression they grossly underestimated me and thought I wouldn't quit.

Luckily for me, I found a job that paid $10k more, put in my notice and that was that. Only after I left did they realise they were suddenly down one of the few people that could work early mornings, who had most of the qualifications they needed for their contracts and who they had just spent thousands of dollars training for said contracts.

They were stupid enough to give me an exit interview form to fill out about my time at the company... As if I wouldn't share with them how annoyed I was about the whole situation. I found it yesterday while I was sorting some papers. My responses were polite but you can tell I was extremely angry when I wrote it because I liked the job but the management were arseholes.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 10:04:41 PM by coin »

electriceagle

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #994 on: January 19, 2016, 01:23:52 AM »
I did well, and a year later I was promoted again, to managing my old role.  This time they did a reasonable job taking care of me $$-wise.  So I put out a req for my old role, and HR told me I had a budget of $90k to hire someone.  Eventually decided on a candidate (external) and the HR guys came back and said to hire that guy, we need to offer $99k, 10% over my budget.  I asked, uh, what can we do, and they said, oh don't worry, go ahead with the $99k offer.  WTF?

So for a guy, me, who was approached about filling a role, came with a proven track record at the company, I had to fight for a raise and got ~8%, of which a third I was going to get anyways. 

OTOH, for someone who was entirely unknown, no history at all, external hire, we paid him 10% over our plan (and $7k over what I was getting for the same role) with no blinks or hesitation at all.

Doesn't make sense to me at all.  And by the way, guy we hired turned out to be a shithead we've almost fired 2x now and is on "double secret probation".

Yep, the only way to get real raises is to change companies during a boom. A company that hires does so because they recognize an immediate need; the company that you move from only recognizes that you're not worth firing. Ergo, a company that is hiring is motivated to pay more.

Kitsune

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #995 on: January 19, 2016, 07:02:40 AM »
I did well, and a year later I was promoted again, to managing my old role.  This time they did a reasonable job taking care of me $$-wise.  So I put out a req for my old role, and HR told me I had a budget of $90k to hire someone.  Eventually decided on a candidate (external) and the HR guys came back and said to hire that guy, we need to offer $99k, 10% over my budget.  I asked, uh, what can we do, and they said, oh don't worry, go ahead with the $99k offer.  WTF?

So for a guy, me, who was approached about filling a role, came with a proven track record at the company, I had to fight for a raise and got ~8%, of which a third I was going to get anyways. 

OTOH, for someone who was entirely unknown, no history at all, external hire, we paid him 10% over our plan (and $7k over what I was getting for the same role) with no blinks or hesitation at all.

Doesn't make sense to me at all.  And by the way, guy we hired turned out to be a shithead we've almost fired 2x now and is on "double secret probation".

Yep, the only way to get real raises is to change companies during a boom. A company that hires does so because they recognize an immediate need; the company that you move from only recognizes that you're not worth firing. Ergo, a company that is hiring is motivated to pay more.

This. I'm currently 31, and I've had 4 professional jobs since graduating from university (BA in English Lit with a minor in European history and women's studies; I clearly wanted a job)

Job 1: 35K/year, 80 hours a week of being screamed at. I lasted 13 months; just long enough to get enough experience to get a better job elsewhere.
Job 2: 40K/year, 55 hours per week, reasonable working conditions in a company I liked. No raises for 3.5 years (start-up that wasn't making money), but I argued a lot of quality-of-life 'raises' (working from home, expensing my phone/internet/bus pass, 2 extra weeks vacation, etc)
Job 3: 68K/year + 8% bonus, 60 hours per week. I was hired by someone I had previously worked with, negotiated well, had experience to back it up, and justified an extra increase by telling the interviewer that if I was giving up all the quality of life bonuses I had at my previous job, that had to be compensated for with money. It worked. *shrugs*It was huge corporate thing and I HATED it, but it was worth it for the money and experience (and knowledge that I hate working for huge and corporate and should avoid at all costs in the future) I worked there 3 years, plus technically a year of maternity leave.
Job 4 (where I'm currently at): 60K/year, 35 hours per week. Slight pay cut, but honestly, I will absolutely lose 8K/year to work 25 hours per week less... because at that salary difference, those hours are paid at 6$/hour CAD... or 60% of minimum wage. Bugger that. If I need 8K more, I'll go be a consultant somewhere for a month or two. Or, y'know, sell some eggs/asparagus/raspberries once our garden gets going. There are better ways to make 8K than to work 25 hours per week for a year...

And the people I graduated university with who are still in the company they started out with? Are working 60+ hours per week for under 40K a year, universally.

Making Cookies

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #996 on: February 17, 2016, 10:19:40 PM »
I'll throw in my bone (story). I've told it before so if it sounds familiar I apologize.

Was working for a once smallish engineering company that did not pay very well in retrospect and that basically used people up. They could do that b/c they had a surplus of applicants in our town at the time - that was the early chapters of the Great Recession.

We'd have company meetings with the managers spinning great yarns about how great things were. Then one day they laid off about ten guys (out of ~145 employees) - a couple really good guys with potential to make way for a lousy manager that needed to backslide to keep his job after failing to measure up.

The guy was/is a nut. I never witnessed any episodes but from time to time he'd throw public tantrums. My direct troubles with him mostly amounted to last second "emergency" assignments that occupied late nights and weekends. Also contradictory instructions. Once delivered I'd notice that these assignments would cool on the back burner for a month or more. Meanwhile I was working unpaid overtime on top of a modest entry-level salary.

I've since heard stories of him doing that to his entire team. Order his guys to work that weekend with 30 mins notice as he's headed out the door and out of town to the mtns for the weekend. Never mind if you had plans... At least his floor team was working hourly and thus overtime. Maybe part of why he got stepped on - causing overtime just so he could throw his weight around.

I was naive, believed the "team" concept for too long and bought the management's spiel at the company pep-rallies. Then the guy that hired me left to start his own company competing with the company he left. Took the cream of the crop experienced engineers and builders. I should have realized that from his POV he could see the place souring. Naive me...

With the guy that hired me gone, I was quickly designing/building projects for several managers. Much higher work load. I was hired to do these projects using methods were were very slow and time consuming. Using some simple software and redesigning the work flow I quietly automated much of what I did. The challenge then was to appear busy. Had to track billing on the various projects. That was eventually all made up b/c it was impossible to account for my time accurately.

I wanted to parlay all this into a promotion but it was clear that during this period, promotions were difficult to obtain, and I was so low on the career ladder my future was uncertain no matter how much I was accomplishing. Also it became clear that their was a "boy's club" that would never leave and no way I could move up more than one more step. And - moving up would mean more unpaid overtime after a modest bump in salary ($4K maybe). It was time to look elsewhere.

Interviewed at other places around the state, had some offers but the best offer was at a different employer in my same town. No relocation expenses. Yay! Accepted.

Went to my manager and delivered my notice. He tried to counter offer and asked how much it would take. $10K was my answer and he shook his head no. Didn't matter b/c I had already accepted the other job offer at nearly the same $10K increase plus much more generous benefits package, much better work/life balance, better people, more interesting work, etc.

The old employer pissed me off during the next two weeks and I decided quietly that I'd take my efficiency hacks with me. I trained my replacement in the slow and boring methods I had been taught several years prior. I backed up all of my projects to DVD plus my software hacks - and left. The backups were in case I ever returned.

The next two or three replacements after me all left within months. Many of my friends at the company left as soon as they could find greener pastures (next few years). Company is still there, bigger now but still a lousy place to work. Oh, and the same "boy's club" runs the place.

chetmanly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #997 on: February 18, 2016, 01:21:39 PM »
I think FU money is something that employers should encourage. Who would you want working with you, people who actually want to be there or people who feel like they have no choice? Don't companies always say they want engagement? I don't think engagement happens when people feel trapped.

Love the WalMart guy story. A great example of how financial stability/security preserves our dignity. When you are enslaved to paycheck-to-paycheck living, you may need to set your dignity aside if you want to eat that month.

I find it really odd that so many people in hiring positions complain about people who "Are Lazy" and "Refuse to find work", man.. would you WANT to hire those people? Hell I'd pay them to STAY AWAY from my company.

chetmanly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #998 on: February 18, 2016, 01:37:15 PM »
I don't have an FU story but after this past week, I want to get to that point more than ever.

I work as an engineer and about six months ago we hired another "engineer". I use the quotes because he does not have an engineering degree, just tons of experience from being out in the field. This past week we had a piece of equipment that had failed in the field and has been replaced three time prior by an exact copy but new piece of equipment each time. The "engineer" had called for it to be replaced again and I told the field guys to leave it until someone proves the equipment is truly defective, and not actually miscoordinating. The "engineer" sent me an email and included the guys in my group as well. He asked me to explain to him why I superseded his judgement. Side note, he and I are the same level and pay but he is twice my age. With FU money, I would be able to respond back with "please find attached a copy of MY engineering degree for your reference. If you need further explanation, please note the PE initials following my name. They roughly translate to I am the expert!"

Until the moment I have FU money, I have to bite my tongue and play the politics to keep building up my FU fund. Or wait two years when I'm the engineering manager and then he'll be thinking twice about what he says.

A degree makes you an expert. That's hilarious.

That being said, given the part had failed three times before and replaced three times, that suggests something else is wrong. So good call. Wrong reason.

electriceagle

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #999 on: February 19, 2016, 08:40:56 AM »
A guy was hired, and he regularly brought a gun to work—in a secured office with little chance of anything happening. Not only did he bring it, he put it on his desk while he was working. This made a lot of people uncomfortable. When the company tried to tell them, he went all 2nd amendment on them. It was going to be a long tedious process of either firing him and having lawsuits, or figuring out a way to not let the guy bring it in. Eventually they paid him off with a severance package and a glowing letter of recommendation

Engineer your own layoff indeed! Too bad I'm already out.

Edit: Actually, we had a gun guy when I worked at BigMegaCorp. He would talk loudly on the phone about how the government had taken his guns and how he was going to get them back, but in the meantime he had bought more. We were all in cubicles, so everyone could hear his conversations.

This was a time of quarterly layoffs, when hordes of people were being walked out the door every few months. Everyone else in the area was having layoffs as well. Along the way, someone at some other company in the area shot 3-4 of the managers when they got fired.

Gun guy is still there. I guess management didn't want to take the chance....
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 08:54:49 AM by electriceagle »