Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 534083 times)

Threshkin

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #900 on: December 23, 2015, 01:31:27 PM »

Ultimately I'd think everyone would be here for FI money, not just FU money, even if you don't want to ER.

And that was, in essence, their question: would you use the FU money to delay FI?  I think the answer, in general, should be yes. Stick it out as long as you can, but then use it for its purpose.

If you aren't even going for ER than the answer is an even more clear yes.

But I'd think everyone would want FI, not just FU money.  Right?  Is there anyone just looking for FU money for a little safety and that's it?
Right reb, and I'm finding that the closer I get to FI, the less likely I am to use the FU money.  A healthy balance is needed, otherwise when you are SO averse to spending any FU money, you're in the same predicament as someone without FU or EF money.

I disagree BH.  Even if you are unwilling to spend it, having FU or ER money is MUCH better than not having it at all.

StartingEarly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #901 on: December 23, 2015, 01:57:14 PM »
Agreed, the person without FU money is way more stressed out about life in general. Worrying about spending down money so you no longer have enough to be comfortable to stick it to the man will never be equal to worrying that you have to do everything perfect and still get fired and lose everything.

10YearGoal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #902 on: December 24, 2015, 06:02:50 AM »
On the one hand, I commend people for leaving a toxic work environment, especially when they have the easy financial means to do it. On the other, some of these stories leave me thinking good people are letting the occasional asshole get the better of them, and that by leaving they're just letting the asshole disrupt the good person's life and continue to merrily abuse everyone else who remains.

So maybe a "FU, I'm staying and standing up to the devil" story.... Public education has gotten more and more politicized with leaders coming to districts, ruining them on a variety of fiscal, quality of working life and instructional levels, and then leaving before the shit hits the fan to go somewhere else and do the same thing for more money. My experience was that they attempted to toss me out with the trash as they had done with so many before me who got fired or forced to quit due to extreme mistreatment. Keep in mind, people leave education RARELY once in for 15-20 years as the pension payout is a big consideration. Long story, but I fought, and won the first round of getting my deserved job back. They have tricks for getting around the union but did not expect me to fight back, thus left themselves wide open due to obvious discrimination and breach of contract. However, the treatment received AFTER they knew I was fighting was horrific and continued to last for 6 months. More fighting, to be continued, but once the tide turned it felt really good to know that I stood up for myself but at a cost to myself and my family. I would make the same decision as I am horribly allergic to bullies and unfairness but through my experience I totally understand why people walk away. The EEOC worker told me that a lot of people are mistreated and discriminated against and very few fight it, and she said it's too bad cuz the majority of them would win.

10YearGoal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #903 on: December 24, 2015, 06:04:59 AM »
Sorry, the top part was a quote from Doubledown, the last part my entry. I'm sorry that I don't know how to quote someone then reply, I'll try to figure it out!

Gone Fishing

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #904 on: December 24, 2015, 09:21:44 AM »
Not quite epic, but the new boss wants to move everyone's offices around.  Everyone else has been "yes men" trying to curry favor.  I told him no thanks!  If he moves me anyway, when I resign next spring, I will tell him that it was because he moved my office just to mess with him...

That will be delicious.

Looks like the new boss is going through with the office move (this will be my 6th office in 8 years all on the same floor).  I can't wait to deliver the line!  He's actually has a pretty good sense of humor so I won't let him worry about for more than a few seconds...

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #905 on: December 29, 2015, 12:02:23 PM »
This isn't so much of an epic story as it is a sad description of company culture.

In short. Start up. Layoffs. Losing money. New investors. Lots of people bailing. Most staying to see what the raise will be "in six months".

Yeah it was tiny, even though new hires are making market rate.

First one to bail, before the raise even, a critical employee. First they counter. He says no. Then they say" name your price. "

Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago. That kind of tactic will not work. Everyone here know how you treat them. Why would they stay for a single raise?

He is leaving anyway and he's only the first. They think this method works. It does not.

Pooperman

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #906 on: December 29, 2015, 12:15:03 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #907 on: December 29, 2015, 12:21:25 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?
what revenue?

Pooperman

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #908 on: December 29, 2015, 12:24:09 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?
what revenue?
Good point. Um, half the funding? That should be a good number.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #909 on: December 29, 2015, 12:43:29 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?
what revenue?
Good point. Um, half the funding? That should be a good number.
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msilenus

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #910 on: December 29, 2015, 02:53:21 PM »
Has anyone here ever actually followed through on an offer like that? I've never been in the situation, but I think it would be fun to play around with the jerks just a little bit. I wouldn't ask for anything completely ridiculous, but maybe 2.5x salary with one-half upfront as a "retention bonus" (and with no claw-back provisions attached) just to see if they'd bite.

A while ago I was offered a package to change jobs.  Everyone knew each other, and I sort of wanted to go, but I wasn't unhappy where I was and I didn't like the package being offered.  I had tried to rigorously and fairly compute the value of it relative to my current gig.  So when I said 'no' and they asked 'what would make you take it?' I knew exactly what the answer was, and it was pretty ridiculous. 

The big difference was an equity-exposure-versus-salary sort of thing.  They were already a medium-large company, and they were pitching it as having small-company growth prospects, and valuing the offer from that perspective.  So we were pretty far apart in terms of how we were viewing the package, and I thought it was far short of what I was already making.

When I declined the offer, the boss-to-be asked "what would you take?" and I told him it would take about a 5x increase in equity to reach parity, at which point I'd take it.  I said I didn't think they could do that, but didn't want to make the decision for them by just rejecting the offer.  He thanked me, and ran it up the chain of command.  I didn't get a counter-offer, but I don't think there were any hard feelings.

History proved me right, too.

mtn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #911 on: December 29, 2015, 03:11:39 PM »
First one to bail, before the raise even, a critical employee. First they counter. He says no. Then they say" name your price. "

Has anyone here ever actually followed through on an offer like that? I've never been in the situation, but I think it would be fun to play around with the jerks just a little bit. I wouldn't ask for anything completely ridiculous, but maybe 2.5x salary with one-half upfront as a "retention bonus" (and with no claw-back provisions attached) just to see if they'd bite.

When my grandpa retired in the mid 80's, his company tried to get him to sign a non-compete in exchange for $300,000. He wouldn't take it.

Not long after that, another company came knocking, and grandpa kept saying no. He finally got a nice base salary and a good bonus structure--no idea if it made up the $300k--but the icing on the cake was the company car that he got to keep as long as he stayed for (2?) years, and the country club membership that they paid for while he was an employee, and got to keep when he retired again (had to pay his own dues after retirement). So he got probably 2-4 years more work, a new Cadillac, and a country club membership.

I'd have taken the $300,000 myself, but I sure respect the guy for doing what he did--and having the FU money to not take it.

jlajr

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #912 on: December 29, 2015, 10:25:24 PM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #913 on: December 30, 2015, 07:41:58 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #914 on: December 30, 2015, 09:56:53 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

I disagree. You guys are taking it too personal. Before you quit, you came to work everyday at the agreed upon rate. It's not the employer's fault if you negotiated a poor pay package upfront. There is an unspoken agreement everyday you go into the office that you are OK working for the agreed upon rate. You need to be willing to walk away (quit) to get that rate changed and show that you aren't OK working for the current rate.
"Sloth, like rust, consumes faster than labor wears, while the used key is always bright" ~Benjamin Franklin, The Way to Wealth

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #915 on: December 30, 2015, 10:03:26 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

I disagree. You guys are taking it too personal. Before you quit, you came to work everyday at the agreed upon rate. It's not the employer's fault if you negotiated a poor pay package upfront. There is an unspoken agreement everyday you go into the office that you are OK working for the agreed upon rate. You need to be willing to walk away (quit) to get that rate changed and show that you aren't OK working for the current rate.

Before I quit, I was promoted five times in less than three years and negotiations along the way proved fruitless. I walked away for a 60% raise.

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #916 on: December 30, 2015, 01:07:04 PM »
I'm with you JLee.  I used to do everything I could to keep my best developers happy.   I didn't want them to even think about looking for another job.  It's wrong to think the employee-employer relationship is just business, you really want a smoothly functioning team who share ownership and objectives, not an interchangeable set of cogs in a machine.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #917 on: December 30, 2015, 01:10:57 PM »
yes but ..... a small turnover can be healthy to bring new people onboard.
Otherwise you can end up with that MUMPS/VMS/REXX system you built in 1980 because nobody has ever left and nobody new ever came in.


StartingEarly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #918 on: December 30, 2015, 05:37:29 PM »
No, you just keep your best people trained. You keep them up to speed with all the new languages and they will be trained by who you want them to be trained by and not who ended up training them by chance.

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #919 on: December 30, 2015, 05:54:41 PM »
We always had a small turnover no matter what I did.  All 3 of the companies where I was a manager were in decline.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 06:01:22 PM by scottish »

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #920 on: December 30, 2015, 07:05:18 PM »
No, you just keep your best people trained. You keep them up to speed with all the new languages and they will be trained by who you want them to be trained by and not who ended up training them by chance.
You need to train your people but it's not the same thing as fresh blood:
New hire saying, I've been playing with docker and I think it could really help on this project because of x,y,z. 
Manager saying, I read in an airline magazine that containers are going to be big so I'm sending one random developer on a training course for whatever our current biggest supplier claims is their container technology. 

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #921 on: December 30, 2015, 07:08:55 PM »
No, you just keep your best people trained. You keep them up to speed with all the new languages and they will be trained by who you want them to be trained by and not who ended up training them by chance.
You need to train your people but it's not the same thing as fresh blood:
New hire saying, I've been playing with docker and I think it could really help on this project because of x,y,z. 
Manager saying, I read in an airline magazine that containers are going to be big so I'm sending one random developer on a training course for whatever our current biggest supplier claims is their container technology. 
Or worse - you are all watching a 1 hour webinar on Azure tomorrow over lunch - so you will all be trained in cloud computing.

jlajr

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #922 on: December 30, 2015, 10:02:17 PM »
I disagree. You guys are taking it too personal. Before you quit, you came to work everyday at the agreed upon rate. It's not the employer's fault if you negotiated a poor pay package upfront. There is an unspoken agreement everyday you go into the office that you are OK working for the agreed upon rate. You need to be willing to walk away (quit) to get that rate changed and show that you aren't OK working for the current rate.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but only if there had been no negotiation or other discussion of employment terms before threatening to leave or handing in the resignation. In my particular circumstances, that isn't nor hasn't been the case.

Also, I don't think I'd be taking it too personal. Meaning, under the circumstances I just described, I feel it is a poor way of conducting business. It does not affect any personal feelings I might have toward my manager or the employer.

BlueHouse

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #923 on: January 04, 2016, 08:50:56 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

When I was still working "for the man", I liked my job and felt respected and was learning a lot.  A director of a different company that worked alongside me kept asking me to join them and I kept saying "not interested...don't want to even entertain your offer because I'm happy here...don't want to discuss the details." 
One day she just blurted out how much money she was talking about.  The base salary would have been a $35K increase.  All of a sudden, I was willing to hear the details and I was working for her within a month. 
But the first company kept me happy enough that I didn't feel the need to look elsewhere.  If the new boss hadn't been so persistent, I would probably still be at that job making decent money, but not life-changing. 
Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #924 on: January 04, 2016, 09:46:36 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

I disagree. You guys are taking it too personal. Before you quit, you came to work everyday at the agreed upon rate. It's not the employer's fault if you negotiated a poor pay package upfront. There is an unspoken agreement everyday you go into the office that you are OK working for the agreed upon rate. You need to be willing to walk away (quit) to get that rate changed and show that you aren't OK working for the current rate.

See what BlueHouse just posted.

I realize that "it's not personal, it's business", but it kind of is.  When you consider you are trading your time for money.

The company tries to get the best people for the least amount of money.

Yes, I negotiated this rate.  Four years ago.  I did not:
negotiate a rate to not change in four year
agree to get more work and responsibility thrown at me due to layoffs, at the same rate as four years ago
agree to hire four newer senior engineers at "going rate" (aka $12k to 30k a year more than I make)
agree to train, or just flat out do the work of, the two higher paid engineers because they are ineffective and/or lazy

The fact of the matter is, if a company is willing to hire "new blood" at market rate, they REALLY need to be careful about keeping current employees underpaid compared to market rate.  In the case of my company:
3/4 hires were "senior" to me in age/ experience, although once you get to over 20 years, it doesn't matter so much - it's more individual areas of expertise
4/4 were paid more than me
2/4 were fabulous and worth any penny. One worked for me.  I did not care that she made more than me.  Both of the 2 came in, figured things out, and got shit done.
The other two were unable or unwilling to do their jobs.  One of them, quite literally, would disappear for hours to walk on the beach.  I ended up doing his job.  The other one shared an office with me and another guy, and asked us how to do his job half the day.  Really dude, you make $30k more than me, I can train you on our computer system but I am NOT doing you job for you.

The company has decided what the job is worth, they should pay it.  Many  many people here have tried to negotiate better terms in light of the lack of raises.  The answer has always be "no", unless they choose to leave, then suddenly it's "name your price".  By then, for the majority of people, it's too late.  Then we are left with a big hole.  The replacement person both costs more AND has to come up to speed.  Hiring and training takes MONTHS.

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #925 on: January 04, 2016, 03:42:25 PM »
Exactly.   one your employee has started looking for another job, it's already too late.

Kepler

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #926 on: January 10, 2016, 02:33:52 AM »

Thanks Diane C - but don't worry - I'm okay.  I too feel like I'm playing hooky sometimes and it feels great. I just know that if I had been laid off, it may have felt like rejection.  But, I can't say for sure, as I controlled my own FIRE. 

As much as I usually don't give a shit about what people think, there is that small part of me that does. I can't pretend it away. But that's okay. I'm a social human. 

I'm puzzled by this, though: I would think layoffs would generally be driven by the financial health of the organisation, and therefore not reflect badly on the staff laid off? It had never actually occurred to me that someone would construe it as somehow reflecting badly on the person laid off - it's not like being individually sacked: they are generally letting lots of people go, and it could be for reasons like major projects winding down, relocations, etc.

I do understand that companies may try to hang on to their most valuable employees, and might want to lay off the least valuable by preference - but that assumes that companies are actually good at making that decision, and that they aren't doing layoffs by some abstract principle over which individual staff have no control (last hired, closest to retirement age, highest salary, etc.).  It also assumes that staff don't voluntarily opt in to being laid off because they want to move on anyway.

At my university, they periodically do calls for voluntary redundancies. The drivers are partially financial, but mainly designed to give the university some flexibility in responding to changing market conditions - and voluntary processes go down better on an industrial relations level.

Sometimes the calls are completely open - anyone who wants to take a voluntary redundancy can. Often, they are restricted in ways that you could construe to be about poor performance - most recently, for example, there was a call for voluntary redundancies that was open only to academic staff who don't have a PhD (for historical reasons, we have a certain percentage of these, but new national standards now prevent these staff from teaching postgrads, so the uni is trying to incentivise either their departure or their completion of a doctoral degree).  But the people who accepted this offer weren't necessarily bad staff. They were mostly just old enough that they didn't want the hassle of getting a doctorate, but also didn't want to be restricted to teaching only undergrads. It seemed a nicer way to deal with the changing regulatory environment than frogmarching people into a doctoral program... And most of the people who put themselves forward were close to retirement anyway. Their departures then opened positions for new staff.

Personally, I have every intention of taking a voluntary redundancy myself, if one comes up close enough to when I'm FI - a well-timed one could even let me leave a year or two earlier than would otherwise be viable. Now, I'm someone who won't care if others assume this means I'm a subpar researcher or whatever - but I would still consider someone who makes blanket negative judgements about people who are laid off, to be revealing that they aren't particularly savvy about how these things work.

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #927 on: January 10, 2016, 08:40:49 AM »
Quote
I'm puzzled by this, though: I would think layoffs would generally be driven by the financial health of the organisation, and therefore not reflect badly on the staff laid off? It had never actually occurred to me that someone would construe it as somehow reflecting badly on the person laid off - it's not like being individually sacked: they are generally letting lots of people go, and it could be for reasons like major projects winding down, relocations, etc.
It hurts to not be a "chosen one".

I was laid off once, when the entire company went out of business and went chapter...whateve the reorg is. Laid off over 400 people, kept 20.  It was easy to not feel bad back then, as I started my new job the next day.

A local company that's been here forever just shut down, and my friends who I got laid off with back in Dec of 1999 just got laid off there.  They closed the whole place, except for a handful to shut down the tools and ship them off.

My current company has had 3 layoffs.  It's hard to get laid off.  The first one, we lost a lot of the younger people that I'd hired the year before.  Only kept 1.
The next layoff, they hit a lot of senior people who were highly paid.  It wasn't done very well because they didn't bother to ask the bosses who was actually doing the work.
The third layoff shut down our manufacturing area.  So all of the manufacturing employees and engineers were laid off...except for two engineers - myself (the first) and one other (the second).  We are in very different jobs now.  But I'd imagine it would have been hard for the others who got laid off - to have not been "chosen" for a transfer to a different spot.

Zaga

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #928 on: January 10, 2016, 08:49:01 AM »
I went through a layoff at my last job, worst work day of my life.  And not because I was chosen either.  So many great people who had dedicated their lives to that company were let go.  People who had been friends for 30+ years hurriedly exchanging phone numbers as they were called out.

The worst part is that I was NOT dedicated to that job or that company, so I watched people who I thought should have kept their jobs leave while I kept my job but didn't really want it.  It was heart-rending.  The next year they asked for volunteers, I volunteered.  Hopefully someone who really loved it there got to stay because of me leaving.

So sometimes it's not good to be kept on after a major layoff, it can just suck majorly.

Kepler

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #929 on: January 11, 2016, 12:21:40 AM »
I went through a layoff at my last job, worst work day of my life.  And not because I was chosen either.  So many great people who had dedicated their lives to that company were let go.  People who had been friends for 30+ years hurriedly exchanging phone numbers as they were called out.

The worst part is that I was NOT dedicated to that job or that company, so I watched people who I thought should have kept their jobs leave while I kept my job but didn't really want it.  It was heart-rending.  The next year they asked for volunteers, I volunteered.  Hopefully someone who really loved it there got to stay because of me leaving.

So sometimes it's not good to be kept on after a major layoff, it can just suck majorly.

Oh I can completely understand this sort of reaction - whether sadness that other people are being hurt, or sadness at losing a workplace cohort you liked or (for mm1970) had mentored, or anything like that.  Sorry if that was unclear - I can totally see how someone would be upset by a layoff. I was just baffled that, in the interaction described above, the person's poker mate would think it somehow reflects badly on the people laid off.  I would think people might judge people just deciding to quit more than they would people being laid off (not that I think people should either, but I've certainly seen snarky pushbacks on people discussing plans to FIRE...)

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #930 on: January 11, 2016, 03:44:05 PM »
I've worked for a couple of companies that did prolonged downsizing.   The first people to go were always  the people we thought weren't performing.   The only exception would occur if an entire business was being eliminated.   One company went out of it's way to try and hold on to their best people.   I was encouraged to trade my low-performers for high-performers from a product that was being shut down.    so I don't find it surprising at all that there can be a stigma attached to someone who's been laid off.

jlajr

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Fired or laid off
« Reply #931 on: January 11, 2016, 11:42:45 PM »
A few years ago, I was surprised to find out that some people I know, originally from the US I think, distinguish between being fired versus being laid off:

  • Being fired meaning a company terminated employment due to poor performance
  • Being laid off meaning a company terminated employment due to reorganization, downsizing, and so on

Because I don't think many people would volunteer to family, friends, or potential employers that they were fired for poor performance, I figured anyone who makes the distinction wouldn't say they were fired anyway. Meaning, even if they were in fact fired for poor performance, they'd say they were laid off.

The point being, I was using the terms interchangeably, not realizing others might have been attaching different meanings to the terms.

A colleague friend of mine, originally from the UK, uses the term sacked for all types of employment termination, I think. I don't think that works for US audiences though.

Rubic

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Re: Fired or laid off
« Reply #932 on: January 12, 2016, 08:02:36 AM »
A colleague friend of mine, originally from the UK, uses the term sacked for all types of employment termination, I think. I don't think that works for US audiences though.

I thought the UK term was "made redundant".

mtn

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Re: Fired or laid off
« Reply #933 on: January 12, 2016, 08:27:23 AM »
A few years ago, I was surprised to find out that some people I know, originally from the US I think, distinguish between being fired versus being laid off:

  • Being fired meaning a company terminated employment due to poor performance
  • Being laid off meaning a company terminated employment due to reorganization, downsizing, and so on

Because I don't think many people would volunteer to family, friends, or potential employers that they were fired for poor performance, I figured anyone who makes the distinction wouldn't say they were fired anyway. Meaning, even if they were in fact fired for poor performance, they'd say they were laid off.

The point being, I was using the terms interchangeably, not realizing others might have been attaching different meanings to the terms.

A colleague friend of mine, originally from the UK, uses the term sacked for all types of employment termination, I think. I don't think that works for US audiences though.

I've heard friends and family use "fired" to describe when the were indeed fired.


Joggernot

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #934 on: January 12, 2016, 08:32:10 AM »
In Washington, DC if you were fired for cause, you didn't get unemployment compensation.  If you were "laid off", you got unemployment.  When I was laid off, the company was good in calling it a lay off, not a firing for cause.  Just a personal experience for me.

zephyr911

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Re: Fired or laid off
« Reply #935 on: January 12, 2016, 08:41:59 AM »
Because I don't think many people would volunteer to family, friends, or potential employers that they were fired for poor performance, I figured anyone who makes the distinction wouldn't say they were fired anyway. Meaning, even if they were in fact fired for poor performance, they'd say they were laid off.

The point being, I was using the terms interchangeably, not realizing others might have been attaching different meanings to the terms.
I have friends who were honest about getting fired. They're the only kind worth having. ;)
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frugalnacho

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Re: Fired or laid off
« Reply #936 on: January 12, 2016, 08:58:01 AM »
A few years ago, I was surprised to find out that some people I know, originally from the US I think, distinguish between being fired versus being laid off:

  • Being fired meaning a company terminated employment due to poor performance
  • Being laid off meaning a company terminated employment due to reorganization, downsizing, and so on

Because I don't think many people would volunteer to family, friends, or potential employers that they were fired for poor performance, I figured anyone who makes the distinction wouldn't say they were fired anyway. Meaning, even if they were in fact fired for poor performance, they'd say they were laid off.

The point being, I was using the terms interchangeably, not realizing others might have been attaching different meanings to the terms.

A colleague friend of mine, originally from the UK, uses the term sacked for all types of employment termination, I think. I don't think that works for US audiences though.

I've heard friends and family use "fired" to describe when the were indeed fired.

I've never known anyone to use the terms interchangeably. 

JLee

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Re: Fired or laid off
« Reply #937 on: January 12, 2016, 08:59:36 AM »
A few years ago, I was surprised to find out that some people I know, originally from the US I think, distinguish between being fired versus being laid off:

  • Being fired meaning a company terminated employment due to poor performance
  • Being laid off meaning a company terminated employment due to reorganization, downsizing, and so on

Because I don't think many people would volunteer to family, friends, or potential employers that they were fired for poor performance, I figured anyone who makes the distinction wouldn't say they were fired anyway. Meaning, even if they were in fact fired for poor performance, they'd say they were laid off.

The point being, I was using the terms interchangeably, not realizing others might have been attaching different meanings to the terms.

A colleague friend of mine, originally from the UK, uses the term sacked for all types of employment termination, I think. I don't think that works for US audiences though.

I've heard friends and family use "fired" to describe when the were indeed fired.

I've never known anyone to use the terms interchangeably.

Neither have I.

AerynLee

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Re: Fired or laid off
« Reply #938 on: January 12, 2016, 09:16:59 AM »
A few years ago, I was surprised to find out that some people I know, originally from the US I think, distinguish between being fired versus being laid off:

  • Being fired meaning a company terminated employment due to poor performance
  • Being laid off meaning a company terminated employment due to reorganization, downsizing, and so on

Because I don't think many people would volunteer to family, friends, or potential employers that they were fired for poor performance, I figured anyone who makes the distinction wouldn't say they were fired anyway. Meaning, even if they were in fact fired for poor performance, they'd say they were laid off.

The point being, I was using the terms interchangeably, not realizing others might have been attaching different meanings to the terms.

A colleague friend of mine, originally from the UK, uses the term sacked for all types of employment termination, I think. I don't think that works for US audiences though.

I've heard friends and family use "fired" to describe when the were indeed fired.

I've never known anyone to use the terms interchangeably.

Neither have I.
I have a friend who I think has twice now been fired but claims he was laid off. I don't know for sure the details but with what I know of him and how he's talked about his jobs my money is on fired

frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #939 on: January 12, 2016, 09:17:52 AM »
Also it seems totally irrelevant what terminology you would use with a potential employer, as most can and will call your former employer anyway, and your former employer will almost certainly not have an issue using the term fired if you were in fact fired for any reason (poor performance, sexual harassment, stealing, damaging company property, etc).

Chris22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #940 on: January 12, 2016, 09:43:50 AM »
There's really three categories:

Laid Off: exited as part of a larger restructuring, job eliminated or moved to another region, etc.  Generally impacts more than 1 person.
Fired/terminated: Let go for poor job performance, etc.
Fired/terminated for cause: did something severely against the rules, like sexual harassment, watching adult movies on company property, theft, etc.

Usually the first is relatively without stigma, assuming it's fairly well known the company is downsizing ("Acme co slashes 1,000 jobs!").  The second is not without stigma, but often a company will let a poor performer resign, and you still might get severance. 

The last is a big no no.
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mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #941 on: January 12, 2016, 10:16:50 AM »
Also it seems totally irrelevant what terminology you would use with a potential employer, as most can and will call your former employer anyway, and your former employer will almost certainly not have an issue using the term fired if you were in fact fired for any reason (poor performance, sexual harassment, stealing, damaging company property, etc).
This is in fact not true.  Legally it's a big problem, specifically in California.  (I can't speak for other areas)

We've been instructed by our HR that if we are called for reference for former employees, we are ONLY allowed to confirm their employment.  Otherwise, it can be construed as interfering with a person's livelihood.

(I mean, all sorts of back door phone calls happen anyway, when you know someone who knows someone.)  By the way, this goes for good AND bad employees.

frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #942 on: January 12, 2016, 11:36:44 AM »
Also it seems totally irrelevant what terminology you would use with a potential employer, as most can and will call your former employer anyway, and your former employer will almost certainly not have an issue using the term fired if you were in fact fired for any reason (poor performance, sexual harassment, stealing, damaging company property, etc).
This is in fact not true.  Legally it's a big problem, specifically in California.  (I can't speak for other areas)

We've been instructed by our HR that if we are called for reference for former employees, we are ONLY allowed to confirm their employment.  Otherwise, it can be construed as interfering with a person's livelihood.

(I mean, all sorts of back door phone calls happen anyway, when you know someone who knows someone.)  By the way, this goes for good AND bad employees.

Really?  I don't have any first hand experience, but I always thought that was the purpose of calling former employers.  Seems really pointless if they are not allowed to disclose any information other than the person did in fact worked there (or not).  I mean if you were fired for a violent offense, or stealing/damaging company property, or not being able to perform your job (i've worked with people that could not perform basic tasks that were fundamental to their job) it would be critical information to the new employer.  It also defies the entire premise of a reference.  I mean what good is a reference if all my former employer can legally say is "yes frugalnacho worked here until X date"?

EDIT: I'm not a lawyer, but every single source I am finding on a quick google search is telling me you are wrong.  Your company may in fact have this policy, but the first 5 sources I checked said this is a common misconception and there is in fact no laws barring an employer from disclosing that information if they choose to.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 11:41:10 AM by frugalnacho »

AZDude

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #943 on: January 12, 2016, 11:51:13 AM »
Its a liability issue. I listed my former supervisor at a govt agency as a reference and he flat out refused to say anything other than referring them to HR. I finally had to call and ask a personal favor before he would give an OK reference. Every other supervisor was more than happy to say something.

frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #944 on: January 12, 2016, 11:59:18 AM »
Its a liability issue. I listed my former supervisor at a govt agency as a reference and he flat out refused to say anything other than referring them to HR. I finally had to call and ask a personal favor before he would give an OK reference. Every other supervisor was more than happy to say something.

I didn't include it in my post above, but the one caveat all those sources mentioned is that the information must be true.  That shouldn't really have to be listed as a caveat though.  If you get fired for stealing, what liability is the company assuming by relaying that fact to potential employers?  I could understand if they suspected you of something but couldn't prove it, but fired you anyway because it's an at-will agreement and they can fire you, that they shouldn't be allowed to pass on that information.  But if it's factual  I don't understand where the liability comes into play.

AZDude

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #945 on: January 12, 2016, 12:03:46 PM »
Rarely are things that black and white. If you were caught stealing, and there is a police report and conviction, then probably not a big deal. If the company says you were stealing, and fires you, but there is never a conviction or any legal consequences, then you have to be able to prove your assertions in court based on the most-likely flimsy evidence you have.

Much easier to just say "he was let go on XX/XX/XXXX involuntarily", which is impossible to argue.

Chris22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #946 on: January 12, 2016, 12:10:18 PM »
The code questions are

"Is XXX eligible for rehire?" and "Was XXX let go as part of a larger reduction in force?"  No to either tells a hiring manager all they need to know.
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rockstache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #947 on: January 12, 2016, 12:12:42 PM »
Also it seems totally irrelevant what terminology you would use with a potential employer, as most can and will call your former employer anyway, and your former employer will almost certainly not have an issue using the term fired if you were in fact fired for any reason (poor performance, sexual harassment, stealing, damaging company property, etc).
This is in fact not true.  Legally it's a big problem, specifically in California.  (I can't speak for other areas)

We've been instructed by our HR that if we are called for reference for former employees, we are ONLY allowed to confirm their employment.  Otherwise, it can be construed as interfering with a person's livelihood.

(I mean, all sorts of back door phone calls happen anyway, when you know someone who knows someone.)  By the way, this goes for good AND bad employees.

In my state it is the same way. The only thing that anyone can do is confirm that someone worked here.

frugalnacho

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #948 on: January 12, 2016, 12:27:16 PM »
Also it seems totally irrelevant what terminology you would use with a potential employer, as most can and will call your former employer anyway, and your former employer will almost certainly not have an issue using the term fired if you were in fact fired for any reason (poor performance, sexual harassment, stealing, damaging company property, etc).
This is in fact not true.  Legally it's a big problem, specifically in California.  (I can't speak for other areas)

We've been instructed by our HR that if we are called for reference for former employees, we are ONLY allowed to confirm their employment.  Otherwise, it can be construed as interfering with a person's livelihood.

(I mean, all sorts of back door phone calls happen anyway, when you know someone who knows someone.)  By the way, this goes for good AND bad employees.

In my state it is the same way. The only thing that anyone can do is confirm that someone worked here.

Are you sure this is state law and not just your companies HR policy?

As for mm1970's state of california this is the information I found:

Quote
California

Cal. Civ. Code 47(c); Cal. Lab. Code 1053, 1055

Information that may be disclosed:

job performance

reasons for termination or separation

knowledge, qualifications, skills, or abilities based upon credible evidence

eligibility for rehire

Who may request or receive information:

prospective employer

Employer required to write letter:

public utility companies only

Not that I intentionally want to be argumentative, but I trust the actual laws of california rather than what your HR department has relayed to you.  Maybe I am mistaken, but I just went and read the law for myself and it seems like they certainly can disclose the reason you were fired to a potential employer that asks.

turketron

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #949 on: January 12, 2016, 12:37:11 PM »
I worked in Payroll at my last job and since we had the employment records for everyone, any and all verifications of employment came to us to complete, including background checks for job applications, mortgages, etc. For liability reasons we were very careful about what we would release and how it was phrased- even with a signed release from the employee we would only release their dates of employment, pay rate, and if they were eligible for rehire.

This was for a temp agency, so for employees who were no longer working we were very careful to state that they didn't quit, nor were they fired. They entered into an agreement with us to work a specific temp assignment- 3 months, for example. After that 3 months, their assignment ended. The employee didn't elect to leave, nor did the employer fire them, so implying that either was the case would be inaccurate and could negatively affect things like state benefits, unemployment, or job applications for other companies.