Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 1733063 times)

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #850 on: December 19, 2015, 10:06:57 PM »
I had a job that was kind of like that.  On call 24/7, up almost every night dealing with stuff, then in at 8am.  I thought that's what I had to do.  Then we hired a new admin and when he got called at night, depending on how long he was up he would come in late or not at all the next day.  If they asked why he was late he would say 'I was up last night at 3am working'.  Sometimes you just have the attitude of 'I already put in my hours last night/this week.  Say something, I dare you'.  Working long days and weeks occasionally happens when there's a special deadline or issue going on, but if it's a constant thing then that's a staffing issue, which is management's problem, not mine, imo.  I get paid for 40 hours/week (or however many your agreement is).  If that's not enough for the work to get done on a consistent basis, then hire more people.  These are exactly the things FU money is made for.

I basically did that at my last job. When I was called (or stayed late) outside of my normal working hours, I tracked it. I didn't use a single vacation day all summer...just comp day after comp day.  I eventually got past the point of asking, too - I'd basically send an email to my boss/team and say "I'm taking 'X' off, comp day because (reasons)." It worked great. :)

effinoff

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #851 on: December 19, 2015, 11:14:42 PM »
Hi everyone, been lurking on and off on MMM in the past few weeks and loving this thread! Count me in among those in their thirties now and wishing they had learnt about FI/RE in college and be able turn back time to undo all the stupid decisions and heartbreaks in my 20s.

I have left my share of jobs over the years but there is only 1 where I walked without serving my notice. It was your typical horrible job(shitty boss who took all credit for my work, abusive senior management, underpaid, toxic atmosphere, etc.), and I was intensely envious of friends who seemed to be working at much better companies. However, the job market was quite dry that year, and I had negative net worth(due to living way over my means and getting into credit card debt). I had been unemployed for 6 months before the job offer paying below market rates came through. I felt like I had no choice and just had to suck it up for a long time.

On top of being young and dumb, I was also quite hot-headed(but good at hiding it in public) and often let my emotions get the better of me. I was scared that if I jumped ship, then I may not pass probation period at whatever new job I land, then find myself broke and homeless after 1 week. I was also living with a shitty housemate back then who had disgusting habits, but I felt too poor to move.

So for more than 12 months, I was a combination of angry/sad/envious, as I moped in my room after work on most days. I sat up in bed with my laptop, not wanting to go out with friends and hating on my housemate and boss, while I furiously applied for new jobs. By the time I finally got an offer, I had saved enough money for 3 months of an emergency fund, as well as made a sizeable dent on the credit card debt - all due to staying in so much!

The new employer demanded that I be available to start within 1 week and was not prepared to wait for me to serve my standard 1 month's notice at my shitty job. I looked at my bank account balance, projected expenses, the vacation time I had saved up, and articles about the improving job market. I then came to the conclusion that this was a calculated risk that I could afford, and that I needed to move fast to not lose the job offer.

I spent Monday-Thursday that week cleaning up my desk and taking personal effects home. Friday arrives and I invite my shitty boss to a 5:00pm meeting(preventing him from darting away at 4:00pm like he always did). I hand him my pass and resignation letter and claim that I needed time from off the world of work for personal reasons then walked out without letting him get a word in. The very next Monday, I was at my new job and earning 30% more. Fellow co-workers who I had been repeatedly riling up about the horrible conditions also found the courage to resign a few weeks after I did, leaving boss to scramble to recruit new people when the job market had swung to the jobseekers' side. Before the end of the month, I had also moved out and ditched the gross housemate.

A few weeks later, I get a letter in the mail saying that for not working my notice, I did not get paid out 1 month's worth of vacation time that I had saved up(but I had 7 weeks worth in total, so I got 3 weeks paid out to me that went straight to the emergency fund).

I wish I could say that it was all smooth sailing from then on! I did manage to always have FU money of at least 3 months of an emergency fund ever since that day, but if only I had learned about the concept of FI money earlier...

I'm currently in a new job where I find myself not liking my current boss again, and am considering jumping ship after the Christmas season is over. I currently have more than 18 months of expenses saved up(which I now understand from MMM is way too much cash and I need to put more of it into index ETFs). However, I'm trying to take some time to figure out what I really want in a job so I don't end up somewhere that I dislike(again), so I will probably behave myself this time, skip the FU moment by securing a new job offer first, then serve my 1 month notice at this place before leaving.

To those of you that have job-hopped many times, how have you finally found a place you were willing to stay with until you reach FI?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 11:21:10 PM by effinoff »

mancityfan

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #852 on: December 20, 2015, 05:49:23 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

Shane

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #853 on: December 20, 2015, 03:41:44 PM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

What you're saying is true. I'm under no illusions that telling the Man FU necessarily effects meaningful long-term changes within an organization, although it's possible.

It's human nature, though, to enjoy fantasizing about turning the tables on the normal power structure. Usually, the organization gets to make all the rules. People at higher levels of our organizations, some of whom we may never have met, make rules or issue unilateral decrees, which get handed down to workers in their cubicles, and everyone is just expected to accept and abide by them without question. As we all know, some of these rules are ridiculous and petty. FU money gives workers choices.

I've worked in jobs where we were, for example, told by management that, "our company policy is that we don't pay time and a half for hours worked over 40 per week." When I and other workers pointed out to our managers that what they were doing was in violation of federal labor laws, we were told if we didn't like it, we were always free to work someplace else. Most workers just accepted this, because they felt they had no choice. They had to pay their bills.

Because I have pretty much always had enough FU money that I could afford to, I have been able to tell my bosses what my policies are. If it's okay for company executives to unilaterally create policies, why not the workers? Companies that have been unwilling or unable to follow my policies have gotten fired by me, in other words I quit.

While you may think this is "sad," I disagree. If more people saw the connection between a high savings rate and rapidly accumulating as much FU money as possible, and the freedom that having that money allows them to have, the world would be a better place.

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #854 on: December 20, 2015, 06:00:50 PM »
I had a job that was kind of like that.  On call 24/7, up almost every night dealing with stuff, then in at 8am.  I thought that's what I had to do.  Then we hired a new admin and when he got called at night, depending on how long he was up he would come in late or not at all the next day.  If they asked why he was late he would say 'I was up last night at 3am working'.  Sometimes you just have the attitude of 'I already put in my hours last night/this week.  Say something, I dare you'.  Working long days and weeks occasionally happens when there's a special deadline or issue going on, but if it's a constant thing then that's a staffing issue, which is management's problem, not mine, imo.  I get paid for 40 hours/week (or however many your agreement is).  If that's not enough for the work to get done on a consistent basis, then hire more people.  These are exactly the things FU money is made for.

I basically did that at my last job. When I was called (or stayed late) outside of my normal working hours, I tracked it. I didn't use a single vacation day all summer...just comp day after comp day.  I eventually got past the point of asking, too - I'd basically send an email to my boss/team and say "I'm taking 'X' off, comp day because (reasons)." It worked great. :)
Yes, I've started doing this too, or kind of like it - I stopped counting every 1/4 hour that I am working so that I can "make up hours".  I come in, I work, I leave.  If I need to go to the dentist?  I leave. If  I have a project at the school? I come in late.

We almost went out of business this year.  Lots of layoffs. No raises in 4 years, however we can hire in new folks at market rate.  I realize, in my  head, that it's not personal, it's business.  However, it's not good business to treat your long term good employees that way.  Because they get fed up and leave.  Then we have to pay the replacements more money, and then they have to come up to speed.  A few people have left, some people have given notice and gotten raises.  But we are very top heavy now.

Our new big boss wanted to talk to all of the employees.  And he's pretty blunt and made everyone ask a question.  Well, as the longest-employed person there (and also, not an executive), I asked if there was any money for raises.  Was told "no", and "you don't know how bad off you were". As if I was a little bug and how DARE I ask that question.

Well, I asked that question because it's the single biggest question that every non-executive wants answered, and everyone else is afraid to ask.  So I asked it.  And maybe I'm now labeled, but eh... Every single female senior to me has been laid off or quit, so it's not looking like a comfortable place for me anyway.  I'll just keep working, saving my pennies, looking for a new job, and learning what I can.  As much as the place has been a really depressing place to work, I really enjoy my new position and my new boss.  And dammit if I don't have so much pride that I want to see the place succeed and eventually make money.  If only the planned date of making a profit wasn't 5 years from now.

Sibley

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #855 on: December 20, 2015, 06:08:13 PM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

What you're saying is true. I'm under no illusions that telling the Man FU necessarily effects meaningful long-term changes within an organization, although it's possible.

It's human nature, though, to enjoy fantasizing about turning the tables on the normal power structure. Usually, the organization gets to make all the rules. People at higher levels of our organizations, some of whom we may never have met, make rules or issue unilateral decrees, which get handed down to workers in their cubicles, and everyone is just expected to accept and abide by them without question. As we all know, some of these rules are ridiculous and petty. FU money gives workers choices.

I've worked in jobs where we were, for example, told by management that, "our company policy is that we don't pay time and a half for hours worked over 40 per week." When I and other workers pointed out to our managers that what they were doing was in violation of federal labor laws, we were told if we didn't like it, we were always free to work someplace else. Most workers just accepted this, because they felt they had no choice. They had to pay their bills.

Because I have pretty much always had enough FU money that I could afford to, I have been able to tell my bosses what my policies are. If it's okay for company executives to unilaterally create policies, why not the workers? Companies that have been unwilling or unable to follow my policies have gotten fired by me, in other words I quit.

While you may think this is "sad," I disagree. If more people saw the connection between a high savings rate and rapidly accumulating as much FU money as possible, and the freedom that having that money allows them to have, the world would be a better place.

Did you report them to the department of labor? They tend to think poorly of deliberately flouting employment laws.

Shane

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #856 on: December 21, 2015, 01:52:42 AM »
Did you report them to the department of labor? They tend to think poorly of deliberately flouting employment laws.

Believe it or not, I've worked for several companies that knowingly violated federal labor laws. I never filed a complaint against any of the companies that refused to pay us time and a half for hours worked over 40/week. At one job, a couple years after I left, a former coworker filed a complaint with DOL, and he and others still working there got paid a punch of back pay and the employer had to pay a fine, but I had already been gone long enough that I didn't qualify to get anything.

My most recent employer also was in clear violation of the federal Fair Labor Standards Act. I printed out a couple pages of FAQs from DOL's website and tried to show them to my boss twice during meetings, but as soon as he realized what I was trying to get him to read, he pushed the papers away and refused to look at them. All he said was, "We are following the advice we are given by HR, and to the best of my knowledge we are following all laws. If we're in violation of any laws, that's HR's problem. We're just doing what they tell us to do."

In that case, I was pissed off enough that I actually did file a complaint with DOL. The technician who took my complaint over the phone said it sounded to him like my employer was definitely in violation of the law, and he said he was "almost sure" his supervisor would accept my case and order an investigation. Weeks and weeks went by, and finally I got a form letter back from DOL saying that they had declined to accept my  complaint. The letter said that DOL's choosing not to take my case should in no way be construed mean that my case did or did not have merit. It also said I was welcome to pursue my case by hiring a private attorney, but the DOL was in no way encouraging or discouraging me to do so...

When I, again, talked with the technician who originally took my complaint over the phone he mentioned that there had been rumors circulating in his office that with the recent GOP takeover of congress their budget was going to be cut and he and many of his coworkers might lose their jobs. He said that last time the Republicans controlled Congress they cut DOL's budget so much that they didn't have enough investigators to investigate complaints and so even many of the valid complaints got turned down at that time. He suggested that maybe fear of more of the same coming soon was what might have caused my complaint to not be accepted...

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #857 on: December 21, 2015, 08:55:29 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!
Having FU money made me happy. In my career, I went from great boss to not-great boss a number of times, through no fault of my own. Knowing I could pull the trigger at any time made it much easier to deal with the not-great bosses while they lasted. Actually, not only did FU money make me happier, it made me feel mightily empowered, which is priceless. I never had any particular desire to "stick it to the man", I was all about having options when the tides of business flowed in the wrong direction. I think that you might be interpreting the attitudes of a few as the attitude of all on this thread, mancityfan.

Jack

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #858 on: December 21, 2015, 09:09:30 AM »
A few weeks later, I get a letter in the mail saying that for not working my notice, I did not get paid out 1 month's worth of vacation time that I had saved up(but I had 7 weeks worth in total, so I got 3 weeks paid out to me that went straight to the emergency fund).

Speaking of employment laws, I have my doubts that failing to paying out vacation (which is earned hours) is legal either.

ash7962

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #859 on: December 21, 2015, 09:28:44 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

I see the FU mentality as healthy actually.  Sometimes it is about sticking it to the man, but I've found that many of these stories are about people asserting their right to have good working conditions.  I don't think anyone is trying to screw over their employer just 'cause, and I'm sure most of the companies are able to recover.  The point is that the people here were able to improve their own life by moving to a less toxic workplace without suffering financial stress.  That seems healthy to me.

Icecreamarsenal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #860 on: December 21, 2015, 09:50:30 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!
I think you hit the nail a glancing blow.  I don't think these FU stories stem directly from a desire to stick it to the man. While pathetic and unhealthy, the peoples' sides of the stories must be told; how many times were they tread on, to galvanize them to arm themselves with the tool (FI) to fight back?
If you think of it from that perspective, it loses the dullness of revenge and pettiness, and gains an aspirational sheen.

pachnik

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #861 on: December 21, 2015, 09:57:53 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

For me, FU money is an option.  I know that I can leave a job that has become unhealthy for me (and I have had 1 or 2) if I have money saved up.  I've never been under any illusion that replacing me would be difficult.  To me it isn't about " "sticking it" to the boss", it is about taking care of myself. 

mancityfan

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #862 on: December 21, 2015, 10:21:46 AM »
Thanks for the reasoned responses Diane C, Shane, and pachnik. I also have FU money and certainly feel more relaxed/empowered at work, so I see what you are saying. To narrow it down, my concern is more that folks may really think that they are irreplaceable and "sticking it to the man" will leave some kind of lasting legacy.

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #863 on: December 21, 2015, 10:31:53 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

I see the FU mentality as healthy actually.  Sometimes it is about sticking it to the man, but I've found that many of these stories are about people asserting their right to have good working conditions.  I don't think anyone is trying to screw over their employer just 'cause, and I'm sure most of the companies are able to recover.  The point is that the people here were able to improve their own life by moving to a less toxic workplace without suffering financial stress.  That seems healthy to me.

I agree. The goal for me isn't to screw over my employer - it's to prevent the opposite.

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #864 on: December 21, 2015, 10:38:44 AM »
Good Thread -> and helps me focus on my end goal, thanks everyone!

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #865 on: December 21, 2015, 11:07:07 AM »
A few weeks later, I get a letter in the mail saying that for not working my notice, I did not get paid out 1 month's worth of vacation time that I had saved up(but I had 7 weeks worth in total, so I got 3 weeks paid out to me that went straight to the emergency fund).

Speaking of employment laws, I have my doubts that failing to paying out vacation (which is earned hours) is legal either.
This is state dependent.  For example, vacation is earned hours in CA, and you  have to pay it out.

It's not the same in every state.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #866 on: December 21, 2015, 12:19:54 PM »
I have trouble seeing how people can be productive working that many hours doing anything that requires thought.  Where I work we are very aware of "negative work" ie you are working at your desk but making so many mistakes or making stupid/bad decisions that the project would be better off with you not putting in those hours.  Different industries or different tasks I guess.
You mean the entire legal services industry?  Those folks at Biglaw are getting $100k bonuses, but they usually have to have over 1600 (1800 next year) Billable AND Chargeable hours to get it.  That means they are actually working A LOT more than that.

Kitsune

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #867 on: December 21, 2015, 12:31:01 PM »
I agree. The goal for me isn't to screw over my employer - it's to prevent the opposite.

THIS. THIS X1000.

Daisy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #868 on: December 21, 2015, 01:15:55 PM »
I agree. The goal for me isn't to screw over my employer - it's to prevent the opposite.

THIS. THIS X1000.

FU money is also to help you pick and choose your assignments at work. For example, I am working on a project I like now and am leading. However it is ending soon, and what my boss wants me to work on next isn't very exciting to me. But he has to keep his other reports happy and give them the next cool assignment...yes he told me this...basically I had my turn so now I need to do some grunt work for a while so he can keep others happy. I am not well suited for the new assignment. I am glad to have FU money to assert myself early next year. I may even ask to get laid off if he can't  find me a good project. That's going to be an interesting conversation.

Since I am so close to FIRE I dont want to take an opportunity away from a younger coworker to shine though. So this is a tough decision to make.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 01:22:41 PM by Daisy »

birdman2003

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #869 on: December 21, 2015, 01:27:02 PM »
following

jlajr

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FIRE money or FU money
« Reply #870 on: December 21, 2015, 10:50:59 PM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Every day it seems, I decide not to resign from my current full-time job. I have not been offered another full-time job, so I would likely have to use my 'Stash/FIRE/FU money for living expenses for at least some time.

Is this a case of short-term pain for long-term gain?

I also discovered the Afford Anything blog (http://affordanything.com/) recently, so the idea of taking a mini-retirement has crossed my mind. But, again, using the 'Stash now for taking such a mini-retirement presumably involves delaying FIRE.

Thoughts?

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #871 on: December 21, 2015, 11:28:52 PM »
Thanks for the reasoned responses Diane C, Shane, and pachnik. I also have FU money and certainly feel more relaxed/empowered at work, so I see what you are saying. To narrow it down, my concern is more that folks may really think that they are irreplaceable and "sticking it to the man" will leave some kind of lasting legacy.
Hey mancityfan, it's nice that you responded to the feedback. I hear your concern, but I really think it's that everybody loves a good "Fuck You" money story, whether they have it or are still working to amass some. In fact, if you read through the entire thread, some of the best stories involve people who had FU money and bowed out to protect others who were not so well positioned. Saving someone else's livelihood is the kind of lasting legacy a mustachian can really feel good about. I also kinda doubt that very many mustachians feel they are irreplaceable, at least as far as a job goes...the whole RE goal is to work for as short a period as possible. I think most folks are planning on using their post-FIRE years to create their lasting legacies, not their working years.

Faraday

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #872 on: December 22, 2015, 12:18:40 AM »
Hey mancityfan, it's nice that you responded to the feedback. I hear your concern, but I really think it's that everybody loves a good "Fuck You" money story, whether they have it or are still working to amass some. In fact, if you read through the entire thread, some of the best stories involve people who had FU money and bowed out to protect others who were not so well positioned. Saving someone else's livelihood is the kind of lasting legacy a mustachian can really feel good about. I also kinda doubt that very many mustachians feel they are irreplaceable, at least as far as a job goes...the whole RE goal is to work for as short a period as possible. I think most folks are planning on using their post-FIRE years to create their lasting legacies, not their working years.

Shot, bro! :-) :-) :-)

arebelspy

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Re: FIRE money or FU money
« Reply #873 on: December 22, 2015, 01:59:52 AM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Of course using FU money to walk away could delay FIRE.  It could also accelerate it (by getting you into a higher paying job, quicker, giving you the courage to look for something else knowing you have that safety net, etc.).

It's more likely to delay your FIRE if you're using the FU money to quit with nothing else lined up.

But it may well be worth it.  Quality of life > a slightly quicker FIRE.
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mm1970

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Re: FIRE money or FU money
« Reply #874 on: December 22, 2015, 08:36:03 AM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Of course using FU money to walk away could delay FIRE.  It could also accelerate it (by getting you into a higher paying job, quicker, giving you the courage to look for something else knowing you have that safety net, etc.).

It's more likely to delay your FIRE if you're using the FU money to quit with nothing else lined up.

But it may well be worth it.  Quality of life > a slightly quicker FIRE.
and some of us aren't really here for FIRE.  I'm here for FU money.

arebelspy

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Epic FU money stories
« Reply #875 on: December 22, 2015, 08:42:20 AM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Of course using FU money to walk away could delay FIRE.  It could also accelerate it (by getting you into a higher paying job, quicker, giving you the courage to look for something else knowing you have that safety net, etc.).

It's more likely to delay your FIRE if you're using the FU money to quit with nothing else lined up.

But it may well be worth it.  Quality of life > a slightly quicker FIRE.
and some of us aren't really here for FIRE.  I'm here for FU money.

Ultimately I'd think everyone would be here for FI money, not just FU money, even if you don't want to ER.

And that was, in essence, their question: would you use the FU money to delay FI?  I think the answer, in general, should be yes. Stick it out as long as you can, but then use it for its purpose.

If you aren't even going for ER than the answer is an even more clear yes.

But I'd think everyone would want FI, not just FU money.  Right?  Is there anyone just looking for FU money for a little safety and that's it?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 08:45:27 AM by arebelspy »
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #876 on: December 22, 2015, 12:51:17 PM »
FU money purchases security and increased happiness without even having to spend a dime. FU money allows us to say "no," or to fight for what we believe in. FU money gives us options.  And the more FU money we have, the more options it can potentially purchase.

jlajr

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #877 on: December 22, 2015, 08:24:28 PM »
Thanks to everyone who responded to my earlier post, especially arebelspy. I guess I just needed to be reminded.

To all of those celebrating, Happy Holidays!

BlueHouse

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #878 on: December 23, 2015, 01:29:20 PM »

Ultimately I'd think everyone would be here for FI money, not just FU money, even if you don't want to ER.

And that was, in essence, their question: would you use the FU money to delay FI?  I think the answer, in general, should be yes. Stick it out as long as you can, but then use it for its purpose.

If you aren't even going for ER than the answer is an even more clear yes.

But I'd think everyone would want FI, not just FU money.  Right?  Is there anyone just looking for FU money for a little safety and that's it?
Right reb, and I'm finding that the closer I get to FI, the less likely I am to use the FU money.  A healthy balance is needed, otherwise when you are SO averse to spending any FU money, you're in the same predicament as someone without FU or EF money. 

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #879 on: December 23, 2015, 01:31:27 PM »

Ultimately I'd think everyone would be here for FI money, not just FU money, even if you don't want to ER.

And that was, in essence, their question: would you use the FU money to delay FI?  I think the answer, in general, should be yes. Stick it out as long as you can, but then use it for its purpose.

If you aren't even going for ER than the answer is an even more clear yes.

But I'd think everyone would want FI, not just FU money.  Right?  Is there anyone just looking for FU money for a little safety and that's it?
Right reb, and I'm finding that the closer I get to FI, the less likely I am to use the FU money.  A healthy balance is needed, otherwise when you are SO averse to spending any FU money, you're in the same predicament as someone without FU or EF money.

I disagree BH.  Even if you are unwilling to spend it, having FU or ER money is MUCH better than not having it at all.

StartingEarly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #880 on: December 23, 2015, 01:57:14 PM »
Agreed, the person without FU money is way more stressed out about life in general. Worrying about spending down money so you no longer have enough to be comfortable to stick it to the man will never be equal to worrying that you have to do everything perfect and still get fired and lose everything.

10YearGoal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #881 on: December 24, 2015, 06:02:50 AM »
On the one hand, I commend people for leaving a toxic work environment, especially when they have the easy financial means to do it. On the other, some of these stories leave me thinking good people are letting the occasional asshole get the better of them, and that by leaving they're just letting the asshole disrupt the good person's life and continue to merrily abuse everyone else who remains.

So maybe a "FU, I'm staying and standing up to the devil" story.... Public education has gotten more and more politicized with leaders coming to districts, ruining them on a variety of fiscal, quality of working life and instructional levels, and then leaving before the shit hits the fan to go somewhere else and do the same thing for more money. My experience was that they attempted to toss me out with the trash as they had done with so many before me who got fired or forced to quit due to extreme mistreatment. Keep in mind, people leave education RARELY once in for 15-20 years as the pension payout is a big consideration. Long story, but I fought, and won the first round of getting my deserved job back. They have tricks for getting around the union but did not expect me to fight back, thus left themselves wide open due to obvious discrimination and breach of contract. However, the treatment received AFTER they knew I was fighting was horrific and continued to last for 6 months. More fighting, to be continued, but once the tide turned it felt really good to know that I stood up for myself but at a cost to myself and my family. I would make the same decision as I am horribly allergic to bullies and unfairness but through my experience I totally understand why people walk away. The EEOC worker told me that a lot of people are mistreated and discriminated against and very few fight it, and she said it's too bad cuz the majority of them would win.

10YearGoal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #882 on: December 24, 2015, 06:04:59 AM »
Sorry, the top part was a quote from Doubledown, the last part my entry. I'm sorry that I don't know how to quote someone then reply, I'll try to figure it out!

Gone Fishing

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #883 on: December 24, 2015, 09:21:44 AM »
Not quite epic, but the new boss wants to move everyone's offices around.  Everyone else has been "yes men" trying to curry favor.  I told him no thanks!  If he moves me anyway, when I resign next spring, I will tell him that it was because he moved my office just to mess with him...

That will be delicious.

Looks like the new boss is going through with the office move (this will be my 6th office in 8 years all on the same floor).  I can't wait to deliver the line!  He's actually has a pretty good sense of humor so I won't let him worry about for more than a few seconds...

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #884 on: December 29, 2015, 12:02:23 PM »
This isn't so much of an epic story as it is a sad description of company culture.

In short. Start up. Layoffs. Losing money. New investors. Lots of people bailing. Most staying to see what the raise will be "in six months".

Yeah it was tiny, even though new hires are making market rate.

First one to bail, before the raise even, a critical employee. First they counter. He says no. Then they say" name your price. "

Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago. That kind of tactic will not work. Everyone here know how you treat them. Why would they stay for a single raise?

He is leaving anyway and he's only the first. They think this method works. It does not.

Pooperman

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #885 on: December 29, 2015, 12:15:03 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #886 on: December 29, 2015, 12:21:25 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?
what revenue?

Pooperman

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #887 on: December 29, 2015, 12:24:09 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?
what revenue?
Good point. Um, half the funding? That should be a good number.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #888 on: December 29, 2015, 12:43:29 PM »
Is naming your price of "half the revenue" appropriate in that circumstance? Make a request they have to refuse and if they don't, you're FI in like 6 months?
what revenue?
Good point. Um, half the funding? That should be a good number.
And their daughter's hand, is the tradition - at least for C++ devs around here

msilenus

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #889 on: December 29, 2015, 02:53:21 PM »
Has anyone here ever actually followed through on an offer like that? I've never been in the situation, but I think it would be fun to play around with the jerks just a little bit. I wouldn't ask for anything completely ridiculous, but maybe 2.5x salary with one-half upfront as a "retention bonus" (and with no claw-back provisions attached) just to see if they'd bite.

A while ago I was offered a package to change jobs.  Everyone knew each other, and I sort of wanted to go, but I wasn't unhappy where I was and I didn't like the package being offered.  I had tried to rigorously and fairly compute the value of it relative to my current gig.  So when I said 'no' and they asked 'what would make you take it?' I knew exactly what the answer was, and it was pretty ridiculous. 

The big difference was an equity-exposure-versus-salary sort of thing.  They were already a medium-large company, and they were pitching it as having small-company growth prospects, and valuing the offer from that perspective.  So we were pretty far apart in terms of how we were viewing the package, and I thought it was far short of what I was already making.

When I declined the offer, the boss-to-be asked "what would you take?" and I told him it would take about a 5x increase in equity to reach parity, at which point I'd take it.  I said I didn't think they could do that, but didn't want to make the decision for them by just rejecting the offer.  He thanked me, and ran it up the chain of command.  I didn't get a counter-offer, but I don't think there were any hard feelings.

History proved me right, too.

mtn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #890 on: December 29, 2015, 03:11:39 PM »
First one to bail, before the raise even, a critical employee. First they counter. He says no. Then they say" name your price. "

Has anyone here ever actually followed through on an offer like that? I've never been in the situation, but I think it would be fun to play around with the jerks just a little bit. I wouldn't ask for anything completely ridiculous, but maybe 2.5x salary with one-half upfront as a "retention bonus" (and with no claw-back provisions attached) just to see if they'd bite.

When my grandpa retired in the mid 80's, his company tried to get him to sign a non-compete in exchange for $300,000. He wouldn't take it.

Not long after that, another company came knocking, and grandpa kept saying no. He finally got a nice base salary and a good bonus structure--no idea if it made up the $300k--but the icing on the cake was the company car that he got to keep as long as he stayed for (2?) years, and the country club membership that they paid for while he was an employee, and got to keep when he retired again (had to pay his own dues after retirement). So he got probably 2-4 years more work, a new Cadillac, and a country club membership.

I'd have taken the $300,000 myself, but I sure respect the guy for doing what he did--and having the FU money to not take it.

jlajr

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #891 on: December 29, 2015, 10:25:24 PM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #892 on: December 30, 2015, 07:41:58 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

Guesl982374

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #893 on: December 30, 2015, 09:56:53 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

I disagree. You guys are taking it too personal. Before you quit, you came to work everyday at the agreed upon rate. It's not the employer's fault if you negotiated a poor pay package upfront. There is an unspoken agreement everyday you go into the office that you are OK working for the agreed upon rate. You need to be willing to walk away (quit) to get that rate changed and show that you aren't OK working for the current rate.

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #894 on: December 30, 2015, 10:03:26 AM »
Seriously? The time to handle this was months ago.

How often do I have this exact feeling?

Even if a current employer eventually offers terms I'm willing to accept, it would irritate me that they only expressed willingness to change the terms of my employment after I threaten to leave or announce that I'm leaving.

If they think that strategy works for them, great, but I don't have to enable or encourage it.

I agree-- if I was that valuable of an employee, then perhaps they should've offered that before I quit. :P

I disagree. You guys are taking it too personal. Before you quit, you came to work everyday at the agreed upon rate. It's not the employer's fault if you negotiated a poor pay package upfront. There is an unspoken agreement everyday you go into the office that you are OK working for the agreed upon rate. You need to be willing to walk away (quit) to get that rate changed and show that you aren't OK working for the current rate.

Before I quit, I was promoted five times in less than three years and negotiations along the way proved fruitless. I walked away for a 60% raise.

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #895 on: December 30, 2015, 01:07:04 PM »
I'm with you JLee.  I used to do everything I could to keep my best developers happy.   I didn't want them to even think about looking for another job.  It's wrong to think the employee-employer relationship is just business, you really want a smoothly functioning team who share ownership and objectives, not an interchangeable set of cogs in a machine.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #896 on: December 30, 2015, 01:10:57 PM »
yes but ..... a small turnover can be healthy to bring new people onboard.
Otherwise you can end up with that MUMPS/VMS/REXX system you built in 1980 because nobody has ever left and nobody new ever came in.


StartingEarly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #897 on: December 30, 2015, 05:37:29 PM »
No, you just keep your best people trained. You keep them up to speed with all the new languages and they will be trained by who you want them to be trained by and not who ended up training them by chance.

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #898 on: December 30, 2015, 05:54:41 PM »
We always had a small turnover no matter what I did.  All 3 of the companies where I was a manager were in decline.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 06:01:22 PM by scottish »

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #899 on: December 30, 2015, 07:05:18 PM »
No, you just keep your best people trained. You keep them up to speed with all the new languages and they will be trained by who you want them to be trained by and not who ended up training them by chance.
You need to train your people but it's not the same thing as fresh blood:
New hire saying, I've been playing with docker and I think it could really help on this project because of x,y,z. 
Manager saying, I read in an airline magazine that containers are going to be big so I'm sending one random developer on a training course for whatever our current biggest supplier claims is their container technology.