Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 684809 times)

Pooperman

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #850 on: December 16, 2015, 05:54:57 PM »
You know you can lie on your timecard....? The person using it in payroll probably has no one idea who you even are. There are other tricks too. We had a timeclock at one job, despite it allegedly being salary. If I wanted to leave early I would just "forget" to clock out, and tell the timekeeper the time I "left" the next day.

Of course, this only works if you are a quality employee who your boss likes having around and you treat your co-workers well so they don't raise a big stink and will defend you if necessary.

It's a good way to get fired and potentially blacklisted.  I agree you can usually get away with it if your boss consents, but larger companies always have someone higher up who will nuke the department of they find out

My organization had gotten in some extremely deep doo doo at one point due to timekeeping issues on certain contracts, so it was a major major deal.  You did NOT want to mess around with your timecard -- you and your boss were both at risk of immediate termination if there was any falsification.  You had to keep external records documenting all your billing in 15 minute increments.  Which wasted several hours a week, but that was apparently better than the consequences of not being so rigid.

And that is why that line of work is terrible and stressful. Not only do you have to log hours, but some percentage must be billable, and you only get a crappy bonus if you work like 80 hours a week (so you get like 45 billable hours)... So glad I don't do that anymore.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #851 on: December 16, 2015, 10:00:39 PM »
And that is why that line of work is terrible and stressful. Not only do you have to log hours, but some percentage must be billable, and you only get a crappy bonus if you work like 80 hours a week (so you get like 45 billable hours)... So glad I don't do that anymore.
All time must be billed to a project  code.
But you can't bill to a project that is over budget and has used all its hours
And your hours have to add up to the standard 39 hour week - however long you were actually working.

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Malaysia41

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #852 on: December 16, 2015, 10:49:59 PM »
As much as many people around here say they want to be laid off, I suspect it's not such a lighthearted experience. Sure, you get extra money, but I imagine it'd be an ego blow for those of us who don't have the most iron-clad of egos / a total absence of ego.

I was playing poker with some shit-talking expats the other day. They asked what I did for work, as people do. I explained that DH and I had quit our jobs and were living off of savings ( I find that's the most succinct way to put it and have people understand FIRE without explaining FIRE).  A few hands into the game, Craig looked at me sideways. He asked, "were you laid off?"

His question was LOADED with judgement. I could tell that if I had been laid off, he'd think less of me. Not that it mattered in the grand scheme - but the judgement was palpable. I answered honestly, no I hadn't been laid off, it had been my choice. But wow. It hit me that there's more to being laid off than receiving a fat check.  Loads of judgement would come from others, and, perhaps, from self.  Yes, I'm sure I could withstand it and yes, being financially compensated would help. But, it wouldn't be a walk in the park.  It's not something I'd wish for.

.... well of course there's probably a dollar value where I *would* wish for it.  Maybe a couple million, after taxes?  I think I could deal with an ego blow for a couple mil.
Oh, M41 this post makes me sad for you. Part of being Mustachian is that you just don't give a fuck about what other people think. He had probably been laid off and was still angry about it. I might have said, "Well, you could say I laid myself off, and I've been having fun ever since."

When I was a kid, my specialist ophthalmologist was all the way across town. My SAHM would schedule a late morning appointment to avoid traffic and then not bother to take me back to school, using the excuse that my eyes were still dilated. I always loved those appointments because I got a few hours off when everyone else was toiling away. I remember that feeling because I've taken joy in replicating it my entire adult life. Now that I'm RE, every day feels that way. It's awesome. I do feel like I'm getting away with something, and it's still a thrill. I just wish I could bottle up the feeling and sent some  to you.

Thanks Diane C - but don't worry - I'm okay.  I too feel like I'm playing hooky sometimes and it feels great. I just know that if I had been laid off, it may have felt like rejection.  But, I can't say for sure, as I controlled my own FIRE. 

As much as I usually don't give a shit about what people think, there is that small part of me that does. I can't pretend it away. But that's okay. I'm a social human. 

My FIRE was a bit of an FU: on my weekly phone 1:1, my boss told me that I needed to come back to the US. They wanted my job to be done in CA.  I replied, "Umm, nah, we have enough money to live on, I think I'm done." My boss was quiet for a long time.  Then said, "really?  How does that work? I must admit, I'm kind of jealous." A week later, he said, "you can keep doing your job where you are" I said, "nah, I'm done."

Now I get to play hooky every day!  But I am bummed that my shit-talking expat poker buddies won't be able to get together til mid-Jan. :(. What's the point in all this free time if I can't play poker?
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Pooperman

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #853 on: December 17, 2015, 03:58:00 AM »
And that is why that line of work is terrible and stressful. Not only do you have to log hours, but some percentage must be billable, and you only get a crappy bonus if you work like 80 hours a week (so you get like 45 billable hours)... So glad I don't do that anymore.
All time must be billed to a project  code.
But you can't bill to a project that is over budget and has used all its hours
And your hours have to add up to the standard 39 hour week - however long you were actually working.

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My sanity didn't last long. I lasted 2 years.

TomTX

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #854 on: December 17, 2015, 05:25:00 AM »
As much as many people around here say they want to be laid off, I suspect it's not such a lighthearted experience. Sure, you get extra money, but I imagine it'd be an ego blow for those of us who don't have the most iron-clad of egos / a total absence of ego.

I was playing poker with some shit-talking expats the other day. They asked what I did for work, as people do. I explained that DH and I had quit our jobs and were living off of savings ( I find that's the most succinct way to put it and have people understand FIRE without explaining FIRE).  A few hands into the game, Craig looked at me sideways. He asked, "were you laid off?"

His question was LOADED with judgement. I could tell that if I had been laid off, he'd think less of me. Not that it mattered in the grand scheme - but the judgement was palpable. I answered honestly, no I hadn't been laid off, it had been my choice. But wow. It hit me that there's more to being laid off than receiving a fat check.  Loads of judgement would come from others, and, perhaps, from self.  Yes, I'm sure I could withstand it and yes, being financially compensated would help. But, it wouldn't be a walk in the park.  It's not something I'd wish for.

.... well of course there's probably a dollar value where I *would* wish for it.  Maybe a couple million, after taxes?  I think I could deal with an ego blow for a couple mil.
Oh, M41 this post makes me sad for you. Part of being Mustachian is that you just don't give a fuck about what other people think. He had probably been laid off and was still angry about it. I might have said, "Well, you could say I laid myself off, and I've been having fun ever since."

When I was a kid, my specialist ophthalmologist was all the way across town. My SAHM would schedule a late morning appointment to avoid traffic and then not bother to take me back to school, using the excuse that my eyes were still dilated. I always loved those appointments because I got a few hours off when everyone else was toiling away. I remember that feeling because I've taken joy in replicating it my entire adult life. Now that I'm RE, every day feels that way. It's awesome. I do feel like I'm getting away with something, and it's still a thrill. I just wish I could bottle up the feeling and sent some  to you.

Thanks Diane C - but don't worry - I'm okay.  I too feel like I'm playing hooky sometimes and it feels great. I just know that if I had been laid off, it may have felt like rejection.  But, I can't say for sure, as I controlled my own FIRE. 

As much as I usually don't give a shit about what people think, there is that small part of me that does. I can't pretend it away. But that's okay. I'm a social human. 

My FIRE was a bit of an FU: on my weekly phone 1:1, my boss told me that I needed to come back to the US. They wanted my job to be done in CA.  I replied, "Umm, nah, we have enough money to live on, I think I'm done." My boss was quiet for a long time.  Then said, "really?  How does that work? I must admit, I'm kind of jealous." A week later, he said, "you can keep doing your job where you are" I said, "nah, I'm done."

Now I get to play hooky every day!  But I am bummed that my shit-talking expat poker buddies won't be able to get together til mid-Jan. :(. What's the point in all this free time if I can't play poker?

Very nice exit. They wanted to make a major change in your job requirements, you declined and blindsided them with your ability to just be done. Kudos.
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AlanStache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #855 on: December 17, 2015, 06:08:40 AM »
...

That's the thing. At this company, with call outs, 50 hours might be 3 days some weeks. I told one of their guys that we were working overtime, 50hrs, and his reply literally was: "50hrs/week? I remember when I had a part time job like that."

Other work groups literally have forced overtime. 6-12s, 7-12s, for months. Want to take a vacation day on a Sunday? Have to burn 3 and take the weekend off.

Like I said, the workaholic in me wants to go for it, but having to hire a nanny would really cut into any extra money I'd make and my son would probably forget who I am.

I have trouble seeing how people can be productive working that many hours doing anything that requires thought.  Where I work we are very aware of "negative work" ie you are working at your desk but making so many mistakes or making stupid/bad decisions that the project would be better off with you not putting in those hours.  Different industries or different tasks I guess.
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Kitsune

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #856 on: December 17, 2015, 07:53:14 AM »
...

That's the thing. At this company, with call outs, 50 hours might be 3 days some weeks. I told one of their guys that we were working overtime, 50hrs, and his reply literally was: "50hrs/week? I remember when I had a part time job like that."

Other work groups literally have forced overtime. 6-12s, 7-12s, for months. Want to take a vacation day on a Sunday? Have to burn 3 and take the weekend off.

Like I said, the workaholic in me wants to go for it, but having to hire a nanny would really cut into any extra money I'd make and my son would probably forget who I am.

I have trouble seeing how people can be productive working that many hours doing anything that requires thought.  Where I work we are very aware of "negative work" ie you are working at your desk but making so many mistakes or making stupid/bad decisions that the project would be better off with you not putting in those hours.  Different industries or different tasks I guess.

I really wish more managers were aware of the concept of 'negative work'

AZDude

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #857 on: December 17, 2015, 08:06:04 AM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.

dandarc

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #858 on: December 17, 2015, 08:08:37 AM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.
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HairyUpperLip

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #859 on: December 17, 2015, 09:21:39 AM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.
Shh!  Don't tell anyone.

Yeah, don't tell them. I'm still hoping one day I'll be on that 4-day 10 hour days grind.

DeepEllumStache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #860 on: December 17, 2015, 11:15:55 AM »
...

That's the thing. At this company, with call outs, 50 hours might be 3 days some weeks. I told one of their guys that we were working overtime, 50hrs, and his reply literally was: "50hrs/week? I remember when I had a part time job like that."

Other work groups literally have forced overtime. 6-12s, 7-12s, for months. Want to take a vacation day on a Sunday? Have to burn 3 and take the weekend off.

Like I said, the workaholic in me wants to go for it, but having to hire a nanny would really cut into any extra money I'd make and my son would probably forget who I am.

I have trouble seeing how people can be productive working that many hours doing anything that requires thought.  Where I work we are very aware of "negative work" ie you are working at your desk but making so many mistakes or making stupid/bad decisions that the project would be better off with you not putting in those hours.  Different industries or different tasks I guess.

I really wish more managers were aware of the concept of 'negative work'

My boss used to manage a tech group working repair jobs. Upper management started requiring overtime from them. Working regular hours, he saw about 4 tickets completed per day. On the days the techs worked regular hours plus overtime hours, the techs still completed about 4 tickets a day. So we were paying more (additional hours at overtime rate) for the exact same output.
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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #861 on: December 17, 2015, 11:30:06 AM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.
Shh!  Don't tell anyone.

Yeah, don't tell them. I'm still hoping one day I'll be on that 4-day 10 hour days grind.

I did love back when I worked 4/10s at one job, and 3/12s at the other. If I was single at the time, I would have crazy amounts of money still. And this was like 10 years ago.
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AlanStache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #862 on: December 17, 2015, 11:55:46 AM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.
Shh!  Don't tell anyone.

Yeah, don't tell them. I'm still hoping one day I'll be on that 4-day 10 hour days grind.

I did love back when I worked 4/10s at one job, and 3/12s at the other. If I was single at the time, I would have crazy amounts of money still. And this was like 10 years ago.

4/10s once sounded great but now I think it would suck as you loose most all the evening on those 4 days, like get off work go run, quick shower and some leftovers then its bed time.  wash, rinse, repeat.
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mtn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #863 on: December 17, 2015, 12:19:30 PM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.
Shh!  Don't tell anyone.

Yeah, don't tell them. I'm still hoping one day I'll be on that 4-day 10 hour days grind.

I did love back when I worked 4/10s at one job, and 3/12s at the other. If I was single at the time, I would have crazy amounts of money still. And this was like 10 years ago.

4/10s once sounded great but now I think it would suck as you loose most all the evening on those 4 days, like get off work go run, quick shower and some leftovers then its bed time.  wash, rinse, repeat.

In my past job it would have been a little annoying--although lunch would have been 15 minutes shorter (45 to 30), so I'd have only been there 1:45 later--and I'd have gone in an hour earlier, so it was only 45 minutes later.

The current job it would actually work out pretty well. First, lunch would again be 15-30 minutes shorter, my morning commute would probably  be 5-10 minutes shorter, and the evening commute about the same.  And I ride public transit.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #864 on: December 17, 2015, 02:09:59 PM »
To go with the "minor work victories brought on by confidence and independance" theme:

Boss: *walks into my office, starts talking about how he needs me to review this contract for x,y,z, etc, all very important, etc*
Me: What's your deadline on this?
Boss: *pause* What do you mean?
Me: I'm on vacation in *checks time* 4 minutes. If it's quick, I can look at it now. If it's important, I can review it in the next half hour and give my back-up talking points and advice on how to negotiate this over the next two weeks before I leave. If it's not urgent, I can deal with this myself in January. Pick an option! :)
Boss: ... right. It can wait until January. I'd rather you do it.

Ok then. Vacaaaaation!

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #865 on: December 17, 2015, 03:26:34 PM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.
Shh!  Don't tell anyone.

Yeah, don't tell them. I'm still hoping one day I'll be on that 4-day 10 hour days grind.

I did love back when I worked 4/10s at one job, and 3/12s at the other. If I was single at the time, I would have crazy amounts of money still. And this was like 10 years ago.

4/10s once sounded great but now I think it would suck as you loose most all the evening on those 4 days, like get off work go run, quick shower and some leftovers then its bed time.  wash, rinse, repeat.

That actually worked well for me. Pre-mustachian days, the only way I could save was leave no time for spending. Silly, I know, but that was where I was at that point.
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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #866 on: December 17, 2015, 06:08:21 PM »
Studies have shown productivity at just about any jobs falls off a cliff after six consecutive hours. Long days are actually counter-productive, especially so if the employee is getting paid by the hour.

That depends a great deal on the type of work.  Factory production line work peaks at about 9 hours, which is one reason that so many small factories try to go to a 9 hour workday on a two week, 9 workday, revolving schedule.  Unions hate them though.  Personally, I work a 12 hour regular shift, but my work is closer to a corporate "fireman".  I run around the plant solving problems as they arise.  So the term 'productivity' in my case means something different.  If the production lines are running, I don't have a "productive activity" to engage into, and that is how my employer likes it.  I'm getting paid to not engage into productive work at this very moment.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #867 on: December 19, 2015, 08:02:13 AM »
I have trouble seeing how people can be productive working that many hours doing anything that requires thought.  Where I work we are very aware of "negative work" ie you are working at your desk but making so many mistakes or making stupid/bad decisions that the project would be better off with you not putting in those hours.  Different industries or different tasks I guess.

A lot of it boils down to project managers having to hit a deadline for one reason or another.

Yesterday was a good example. Was told other company's crew would be ready in the morning, showed up on site at 7am to nothing ready, did as much pre-work as I could, looked like crew would finally be ready to liven by 3:30 (with me losing remote test support at 4pm, due to being Friday), livening goes sideways and the whole day is pretty much a wash.

So, most of my billable day (10hr) is a change order (extra). We told the other company's project manager not to schedule it so close, but he's getting heat to close out the project. It's stupid, but "the money is green and the checks cash."

JLee

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #868 on: December 19, 2015, 10:06:57 PM »
I had a job that was kind of like that.  On call 24/7, up almost every night dealing with stuff, then in at 8am.  I thought that's what I had to do.  Then we hired a new admin and when he got called at night, depending on how long he was up he would come in late or not at all the next day.  If they asked why he was late he would say 'I was up last night at 3am working'.  Sometimes you just have the attitude of 'I already put in my hours last night/this week.  Say something, I dare you'.  Working long days and weeks occasionally happens when there's a special deadline or issue going on, but if it's a constant thing then that's a staffing issue, which is management's problem, not mine, imo.  I get paid for 40 hours/week (or however many your agreement is).  If that's not enough for the work to get done on a consistent basis, then hire more people.  These are exactly the things FU money is made for.

I basically did that at my last job. When I was called (or stayed late) outside of my normal working hours, I tracked it. I didn't use a single vacation day all summer...just comp day after comp day.  I eventually got past the point of asking, too - I'd basically send an email to my boss/team and say "I'm taking 'X' off, comp day because (reasons)." It worked great. :)

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #869 on: December 19, 2015, 11:14:42 PM »
Hi everyone, been lurking on and off on MMM in the past few weeks and loving this thread! Count me in among those in their thirties now and wishing they had learnt about FI/RE in college and be able turn back time to undo all the stupid decisions and heartbreaks in my 20s.

I have left my share of jobs over the years but there is only 1 where I walked without serving my notice. It was your typical horrible job(shitty boss who took all credit for my work, abusive senior management, underpaid, toxic atmosphere, etc.), and I was intensely envious of friends who seemed to be working at much better companies. However, the job market was quite dry that year, and I had negative net worth(due to living way over my means and getting into credit card debt). I had been unemployed for 6 months before the job offer paying below market rates came through. I felt like I had no choice and just had to suck it up for a long time.

On top of being young and dumb, I was also quite hot-headed(but good at hiding it in public) and often let my emotions get the better of me. I was scared that if I jumped ship, then I may not pass probation period at whatever new job I land, then find myself broke and homeless after 1 week. I was also living with a shitty housemate back then who had disgusting habits, but I felt too poor to move.

So for more than 12 months, I was a combination of angry/sad/envious, as I moped in my room after work on most days. I sat up in bed with my laptop, not wanting to go out with friends and hating on my housemate and boss, while I furiously applied for new jobs. By the time I finally got an offer, I had saved enough money for 3 months of an emergency fund, as well as made a sizeable dent on the credit card debt - all due to staying in so much!

The new employer demanded that I be available to start within 1 week and was not prepared to wait for me to serve my standard 1 month's notice at my shitty job. I looked at my bank account balance, projected expenses, the vacation time I had saved up, and articles about the improving job market. I then came to the conclusion that this was a calculated risk that I could afford, and that I needed to move fast to not lose the job offer.

I spent Monday-Thursday that week cleaning up my desk and taking personal effects home. Friday arrives and I invite my shitty boss to a 5:00pm meeting(preventing him from darting away at 4:00pm like he always did). I hand him my pass and resignation letter and claim that I needed time from off the world of work for personal reasons then walked out without letting him get a word in. The very next Monday, I was at my new job and earning 30% more. Fellow co-workers who I had been repeatedly riling up about the horrible conditions also found the courage to resign a few weeks after I did, leaving boss to scramble to recruit new people when the job market had swung to the jobseekers' side. Before the end of the month, I had also moved out and ditched the gross housemate.

A few weeks later, I get a letter in the mail saying that for not working my notice, I did not get paid out 1 month's worth of vacation time that I had saved up(but I had 7 weeks worth in total, so I got 3 weeks paid out to me that went straight to the emergency fund).

I wish I could say that it was all smooth sailing from then on! I did manage to always have FU money of at least 3 months of an emergency fund ever since that day, but if only I had learned about the concept of FI money earlier...

I'm currently in a new job where I find myself not liking my current boss again, and am considering jumping ship after the Christmas season is over. I currently have more than 18 months of expenses saved up(which I now understand from MMM is way too much cash and I need to put more of it into index ETFs). However, I'm trying to take some time to figure out what I really want in a job so I don't end up somewhere that I dislike(again), so I will probably behave myself this time, skip the FU moment by securing a new job offer first, then serve my 1 month notice at this place before leaving.

To those of you that have job-hopped many times, how have you finally found a place you were willing to stay with until you reach FI?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 11:21:10 PM by effinoff »

mancityfan

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #870 on: December 20, 2015, 05:49:23 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

Shane

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #871 on: December 20, 2015, 03:41:44 PM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

What you're saying is true. I'm under no illusions that telling the Man FU necessarily effects meaningful long-term changes within an organization, although it's possible.

It's human nature, though, to enjoy fantasizing about turning the tables on the normal power structure. Usually, the organization gets to make all the rules. People at higher levels of our organizations, some of whom we may never have met, make rules or issue unilateral decrees, which get handed down to workers in their cubicles, and everyone is just expected to accept and abide by them without question. As we all know, some of these rules are ridiculous and petty. FU money gives workers choices.

I've worked in jobs where we were, for example, told by management that, "our company policy is that we don't pay time and a half for hours worked over 40 per week." When I and other workers pointed out to our managers that what they were doing was in violation of federal labor laws, we were told if we didn't like it, we were always free to work someplace else. Most workers just accepted this, because they felt they had no choice. They had to pay their bills.

Because I have pretty much always had enough FU money that I could afford to, I have been able to tell my bosses what my policies are. If it's okay for company executives to unilaterally create policies, why not the workers? Companies that have been unwilling or unable to follow my policies have gotten fired by me, in other words I quit.

While you may think this is "sad," I disagree. If more people saw the connection between a high savings rate and rapidly accumulating as much FU money as possible, and the freedom that having that money allows them to have, the world would be a better place.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #872 on: December 20, 2015, 06:00:50 PM »
I had a job that was kind of like that.  On call 24/7, up almost every night dealing with stuff, then in at 8am.  I thought that's what I had to do.  Then we hired a new admin and when he got called at night, depending on how long he was up he would come in late or not at all the next day.  If they asked why he was late he would say 'I was up last night at 3am working'.  Sometimes you just have the attitude of 'I already put in my hours last night/this week.  Say something, I dare you'.  Working long days and weeks occasionally happens when there's a special deadline or issue going on, but if it's a constant thing then that's a staffing issue, which is management's problem, not mine, imo.  I get paid for 40 hours/week (or however many your agreement is).  If that's not enough for the work to get done on a consistent basis, then hire more people.  These are exactly the things FU money is made for.

I basically did that at my last job. When I was called (or stayed late) outside of my normal working hours, I tracked it. I didn't use a single vacation day all summer...just comp day after comp day.  I eventually got past the point of asking, too - I'd basically send an email to my boss/team and say "I'm taking 'X' off, comp day because (reasons)." It worked great. :)
Yes, I've started doing this too, or kind of like it - I stopped counting every 1/4 hour that I am working so that I can "make up hours".  I come in, I work, I leave.  If I need to go to the dentist?  I leave. If  I have a project at the school? I come in late.

We almost went out of business this year.  Lots of layoffs. No raises in 4 years, however we can hire in new folks at market rate.  I realize, in my  head, that it's not personal, it's business.  However, it's not good business to treat your long term good employees that way.  Because they get fed up and leave.  Then we have to pay the replacements more money, and then they have to come up to speed.  A few people have left, some people have given notice and gotten raises.  But we are very top heavy now.

Our new big boss wanted to talk to all of the employees.  And he's pretty blunt and made everyone ask a question.  Well, as the longest-employed person there (and also, not an executive), I asked if there was any money for raises.  Was told "no", and "you don't know how bad off you were". As if I was a little bug and how DARE I ask that question.

Well, I asked that question because it's the single biggest question that every non-executive wants answered, and everyone else is afraid to ask.  So I asked it.  And maybe I'm now labeled, but eh... Every single female senior to me has been laid off or quit, so it's not looking like a comfortable place for me anyway.  I'll just keep working, saving my pennies, looking for a new job, and learning what I can.  As much as the place has been a really depressing place to work, I really enjoy my new position and my new boss.  And dammit if I don't have so much pride that I want to see the place succeed and eventually make money.  If only the planned date of making a profit wasn't 5 years from now.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #873 on: December 20, 2015, 06:08:13 PM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

What you're saying is true. I'm under no illusions that telling the Man FU necessarily effects meaningful long-term changes within an organization, although it's possible.

It's human nature, though, to enjoy fantasizing about turning the tables on the normal power structure. Usually, the organization gets to make all the rules. People at higher levels of our organizations, some of whom we may never have met, make rules or issue unilateral decrees, which get handed down to workers in their cubicles, and everyone is just expected to accept and abide by them without question. As we all know, some of these rules are ridiculous and petty. FU money gives workers choices.

I've worked in jobs where we were, for example, told by management that, "our company policy is that we don't pay time and a half for hours worked over 40 per week." When I and other workers pointed out to our managers that what they were doing was in violation of federal labor laws, we were told if we didn't like it, we were always free to work someplace else. Most workers just accepted this, because they felt they had no choice. They had to pay their bills.

Because I have pretty much always had enough FU money that I could afford to, I have been able to tell my bosses what my policies are. If it's okay for company executives to unilaterally create policies, why not the workers? Companies that have been unwilling or unable to follow my policies have gotten fired by me, in other words I quit.

While you may think this is "sad," I disagree. If more people saw the connection between a high savings rate and rapidly accumulating as much FU money as possible, and the freedom that having that money allows them to have, the world would be a better place.

Did you report them to the department of labor? They tend to think poorly of deliberately flouting employment laws.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #874 on: December 21, 2015, 01:52:42 AM »
Did you report them to the department of labor? They tend to think poorly of deliberately flouting employment laws.

Believe it or not, I've worked for several companies that knowingly violated federal labor laws. I never filed a complaint against any of the companies that refused to pay us time and a half for hours worked over 40/week. At one job, a couple years after I left, a former coworker filed a complaint with DOL, and he and others still working there got paid a punch of back pay and the employer had to pay a fine, but I had already been gone long enough that I didn't qualify to get anything.

My most recent employer also was in clear violation of the federal Fair Labor Standards Act. I printed out a couple pages of FAQs from DOL's website and tried to show them to my boss twice during meetings, but as soon as he realized what I was trying to get him to read, he pushed the papers away and refused to look at them. All he said was, "We are following the advice we are given by HR, and to the best of my knowledge we are following all laws. If we're in violation of any laws, that's HR's problem. We're just doing what they tell us to do."

In that case, I was pissed off enough that I actually did file a complaint with DOL. The technician who took my complaint over the phone said it sounded to him like my employer was definitely in violation of the law, and he said he was "almost sure" his supervisor would accept my case and order an investigation. Weeks and weeks went by, and finally I got a form letter back from DOL saying that they had declined to accept my  complaint. The letter said that DOL's choosing not to take my case should in no way be construed mean that my case did or did not have merit. It also said I was welcome to pursue my case by hiring a private attorney, but the DOL was in no way encouraging or discouraging me to do so...

When I, again, talked with the technician who originally took my complaint over the phone he mentioned that there had been rumors circulating in his office that with the recent GOP takeover of congress their budget was going to be cut and he and many of his coworkers might lose their jobs. He said that last time the Republicans controlled Congress they cut DOL's budget so much that they didn't have enough investigators to investigate complaints and so even many of the valid complaints got turned down at that time. He suggested that maybe fear of more of the same coming soon was what might have caused my complaint to not be accepted...

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #875 on: December 21, 2015, 08:55:29 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!
Having FU money made me happy. In my career, I went from great boss to not-great boss a number of times, through no fault of my own. Knowing I could pull the trigger at any time made it much easier to deal with the not-great bosses while they lasted. Actually, not only did FU money make me happier, it made me feel mightily empowered, which is priceless. I never had any particular desire to "stick it to the man", I was all about having options when the tides of business flowed in the wrong direction. I think that you might be interpreting the attitudes of a few as the attitude of all on this thread, mancityfan.
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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #876 on: December 21, 2015, 09:09:30 AM »
A few weeks later, I get a letter in the mail saying that for not working my notice, I did not get paid out 1 month's worth of vacation time that I had saved up(but I had 7 weeks worth in total, so I got 3 weeks paid out to me that went straight to the emergency fund).

Speaking of employment laws, I have my doubts that failing to paying out vacation (which is earned hours) is legal either.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #877 on: December 21, 2015, 09:28:44 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

I see the FU mentality as healthy actually.  Sometimes it is about sticking it to the man, but I've found that many of these stories are about people asserting their right to have good working conditions.  I don't think anyone is trying to screw over their employer just 'cause, and I'm sure most of the companies are able to recover.  The point is that the people here were able to improve their own life by moving to a less toxic workplace without suffering financial stress.  That seems healthy to me.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #878 on: December 21, 2015, 09:50:30 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!
I think you hit the nail a glancing blow.  I don't think these FU stories stem directly from a desire to stick it to the man. While pathetic and unhealthy, the peoples' sides of the stories must be told; how many times were they tread on, to galvanize them to arm themselves with the tool (FI) to fight back?
If you think of it from that perspective, it loses the dullness of revenge and pettiness, and gains an aspirational sheen.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #879 on: December 21, 2015, 09:57:53 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

For me, FU money is an option.  I know that I can leave a job that has become unhealthy for me (and I have had 1 or 2) if I have money saved up.  I've never been under any illusion that replacing me would be difficult.  To me it isn't about " "sticking it" to the boss", it is about taking care of myself. 

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #880 on: December 21, 2015, 10:21:46 AM »
Thanks for the reasoned responses Diane C, Shane, and pachnik. I also have FU money and certainly feel more relaxed/empowered at work, so I see what you are saying. To narrow it down, my concern is more that folks may really think that they are irreplaceable and "sticking it to the man" will leave some kind of lasting legacy.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #881 on: December 21, 2015, 10:31:53 AM »
I do check in with this thread on occasion, and it is obviously very popular. However.... am I the only one that finds some of the FU mentality a little sad? What I find sad is the desire to "stick it to the man" as a goal. I do not see it as healthy. I am not very fond of my boss, but I am under no illusions. When I leave in 4-6 years or so, I know I am replaceable. I will not be spending energy on "sticking it" to the boss. I believe that if some of the folks that have followed the FU approach could go back to their old jobs in a few days and weeks and find that life is just bobbing along nicely and that nothing has changed other than someone else is in your cubicle/job!

I see the FU mentality as healthy actually.  Sometimes it is about sticking it to the man, but I've found that many of these stories are about people asserting their right to have good working conditions.  I don't think anyone is trying to screw over their employer just 'cause, and I'm sure most of the companies are able to recover.  The point is that the people here were able to improve their own life by moving to a less toxic workplace without suffering financial stress.  That seems healthy to me.

I agree. The goal for me isn't to screw over my employer - it's to prevent the opposite.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #882 on: December 21, 2015, 10:38:44 AM »
Good Thread -> and helps me focus on my end goal, thanks everyone!

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #883 on: December 21, 2015, 11:07:07 AM »
A few weeks later, I get a letter in the mail saying that for not working my notice, I did not get paid out 1 month's worth of vacation time that I had saved up(but I had 7 weeks worth in total, so I got 3 weeks paid out to me that went straight to the emergency fund).

Speaking of employment laws, I have my doubts that failing to paying out vacation (which is earned hours) is legal either.
This is state dependent.  For example, vacation is earned hours in CA, and you  have to pay it out.

It's not the same in every state.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #884 on: December 21, 2015, 12:19:54 PM »
I have trouble seeing how people can be productive working that many hours doing anything that requires thought.  Where I work we are very aware of "negative work" ie you are working at your desk but making so many mistakes or making stupid/bad decisions that the project would be better off with you not putting in those hours.  Different industries or different tasks I guess.
You mean the entire legal services industry?  Those folks at Biglaw are getting $100k bonuses, but they usually have to have over 1600 (1800 next year) Billable AND Chargeable hours to get it.  That means they are actually working A LOT more than that.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #885 on: December 21, 2015, 12:31:01 PM »
I agree. The goal for me isn't to screw over my employer - it's to prevent the opposite.

THIS. THIS X1000.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #886 on: December 21, 2015, 01:15:55 PM »
I agree. The goal for me isn't to screw over my employer - it's to prevent the opposite.

THIS. THIS X1000.

FU money is also to help you pick and choose your assignments at work. For example, I am working on a project I like now and am leading. However it is ending soon, and what my boss wants me to work on next isn't very exciting to me. But he has to keep his other reports happy and give them the next cool assignment...yes he told me this...basically I had my turn so now I need to do some grunt work for a while so he can keep others happy. I am not well suited for the new assignment. I am glad to have FU money to assert myself early next year. I may even ask to get laid off if he can't  find me a good project. That's going to be an interesting conversation.

Since I am so close to FIRE I dont want to take an opportunity away from a younger coworker to shine though. So this is a tough decision to make.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 01:22:41 PM by Daisy »

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #887 on: December 21, 2015, 01:27:02 PM »
following

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FIRE money or FU money
« Reply #888 on: December 21, 2015, 10:50:59 PM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Every day it seems, I decide not to resign from my current full-time job. I have not been offered another full-time job, so I would likely have to use my 'Stash/FIRE/FU money for living expenses for at least some time.

Is this a case of short-term pain for long-term gain?

I also discovered the Afford Anything blog (http://affordanything.com/) recently, so the idea of taking a mini-retirement has crossed my mind. But, again, using the 'Stash now for taking such a mini-retirement presumably involves delaying FIRE.

Thoughts?

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #889 on: December 21, 2015, 11:28:52 PM »
Thanks for the reasoned responses Diane C, Shane, and pachnik. I also have FU money and certainly feel more relaxed/empowered at work, so I see what you are saying. To narrow it down, my concern is more that folks may really think that they are irreplaceable and "sticking it to the man" will leave some kind of lasting legacy.
Hey mancityfan, it's nice that you responded to the feedback. I hear your concern, but I really think it's that everybody loves a good "Fuck You" money story, whether they have it or are still working to amass some. In fact, if you read through the entire thread, some of the best stories involve people who had FU money and bowed out to protect others who were not so well positioned. Saving someone else's livelihood is the kind of lasting legacy a mustachian can really feel good about. I also kinda doubt that very many mustachians feel they are irreplaceable, at least as far as a job goes...the whole RE goal is to work for as short a period as possible. I think most folks are planning on using their post-FIRE years to create their lasting legacies, not their working years.
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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #890 on: December 22, 2015, 12:18:40 AM »
Hey mancityfan, it's nice that you responded to the feedback. I hear your concern, but I really think it's that everybody loves a good "Fuck You" money story, whether they have it or are still working to amass some. In fact, if you read through the entire thread, some of the best stories involve people who had FU money and bowed out to protect others who were not so well positioned. Saving someone else's livelihood is the kind of lasting legacy a mustachian can really feel good about. I also kinda doubt that very many mustachians feel they are irreplaceable, at least as far as a job goes...the whole RE goal is to work for as short a period as possible. I think most folks are planning on using their post-FIRE years to create their lasting legacies, not their working years.

Shot, bro! :-) :-) :-)
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Re: FIRE money or FU money
« Reply #891 on: December 22, 2015, 01:59:52 AM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Of course using FU money to walk away could delay FIRE.  It could also accelerate it (by getting you into a higher paying job, quicker, giving you the courage to look for something else knowing you have that safety net, etc.).

It's more likely to delay your FIRE if you're using the FU money to quit with nothing else lined up.

But it may well be worth it.  Quality of life > a slightly quicker FIRE.
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Re: FIRE money or FU money
« Reply #892 on: December 22, 2015, 08:36:03 AM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Of course using FU money to walk away could delay FIRE.  It could also accelerate it (by getting you into a higher paying job, quicker, giving you the courage to look for something else knowing you have that safety net, etc.).

It's more likely to delay your FIRE if you're using the FU money to quit with nothing else lined up.

But it may well be worth it.  Quality of life > a slightly quicker FIRE.
and some of us aren't really here for FIRE.  I'm here for FU money.

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Epic FU money stories
« Reply #893 on: December 22, 2015, 08:42:20 AM »
So, in light of the recent discussion regarding FU money and choices, I pose the question: If I do not have enough FU money to be completely FIRE, doesn't using the 'Stash or FIRE/FU money for living expenses delay FIRE?

Of course using FU money to walk away could delay FIRE.  It could also accelerate it (by getting you into a higher paying job, quicker, giving you the courage to look for something else knowing you have that safety net, etc.).

It's more likely to delay your FIRE if you're using the FU money to quit with nothing else lined up.

But it may well be worth it.  Quality of life > a slightly quicker FIRE.
and some of us aren't really here for FIRE.  I'm here for FU money.

Ultimately I'd think everyone would be here for FI money, not just FU money, even if you don't want to ER.

And that was, in essence, their question: would you use the FU money to delay FI?  I think the answer, in general, should be yes. Stick it out as long as you can, but then use it for its purpose.

If you aren't even going for ER than the answer is an even more clear yes.

But I'd think everyone would want FI, not just FU money.  Right?  Is there anyone just looking for FU money for a little safety and that's it?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 08:45:27 AM by arebelspy »
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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #894 on: December 22, 2015, 12:51:17 PM »
FU money purchases security and increased happiness without even having to spend a dime. FU money allows us to say "no," or to fight for what we believe in. FU money gives us options.  And the more FU money we have, the more options it can potentially purchase.

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #895 on: December 22, 2015, 08:24:28 PM »
Thanks to everyone who responded to my earlier post, especially arebelspy. I guess I just needed to be reminded.

To all of those celebrating, Happy Holidays!

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #896 on: December 23, 2015, 01:29:20 PM »

Ultimately I'd think everyone would be here for FI money, not just FU money, even if you don't want to ER.

And that was, in essence, their question: would you use the FU money to delay FI?  I think the answer, in general, should be yes. Stick it out as long as you can, but then use it for its purpose.

If you aren't even going for ER than the answer is an even more clear yes.

But I'd think everyone would want FI, not just FU money.  Right?  Is there anyone just looking for FU money for a little safety and that's it?
Right reb, and I'm finding that the closer I get to FI, the less likely I am to use the FU money.  A healthy balance is needed, otherwise when you are SO averse to spending any FU money, you're in the same predicament as someone without FU or EF money. 
Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #897 on: December 23, 2015, 01:31:27 PM »

Ultimately I'd think everyone would be here for FI money, not just FU money, even if you don't want to ER.

And that was, in essence, their question: would you use the FU money to delay FI?  I think the answer, in general, should be yes. Stick it out as long as you can, but then use it for its purpose.

If you aren't even going for ER than the answer is an even more clear yes.

But I'd think everyone would want FI, not just FU money.  Right?  Is there anyone just looking for FU money for a little safety and that's it?
Right reb, and I'm finding that the closer I get to FI, the less likely I am to use the FU money.  A healthy balance is needed, otherwise when you are SO averse to spending any FU money, you're in the same predicament as someone without FU or EF money.

I disagree BH.  Even if you are unwilling to spend it, having FU or ER money is MUCH better than not having it at all.

StartingEarly

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #898 on: December 23, 2015, 01:57:14 PM »
Agreed, the person without FU money is way more stressed out about life in general. Worrying about spending down money so you no longer have enough to be comfortable to stick it to the man will never be equal to worrying that you have to do everything perfect and still get fired and lose everything.

10YearGoal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #899 on: December 24, 2015, 06:02:50 AM »
On the one hand, I commend people for leaving a toxic work environment, especially when they have the easy financial means to do it. On the other, some of these stories leave me thinking good people are letting the occasional asshole get the better of them, and that by leaving they're just letting the asshole disrupt the good person's life and continue to merrily abuse everyone else who remains.

So maybe a "FU, I'm staying and standing up to the devil" story.... Public education has gotten more and more politicized with leaders coming to districts, ruining them on a variety of fiscal, quality of working life and instructional levels, and then leaving before the shit hits the fan to go somewhere else and do the same thing for more money. My experience was that they attempted to toss me out with the trash as they had done with so many before me who got fired or forced to quit due to extreme mistreatment. Keep in mind, people leave education RARELY once in for 15-20 years as the pension payout is a big consideration. Long story, but I fought, and won the first round of getting my deserved job back. They have tricks for getting around the union but did not expect me to fight back, thus left themselves wide open due to obvious discrimination and breach of contract. However, the treatment received AFTER they knew I was fighting was horrific and continued to last for 6 months. More fighting, to be continued, but once the tide turned it felt really good to know that I stood up for myself but at a cost to myself and my family. I would make the same decision as I am horribly allergic to bullies and unfairness but through my experience I totally understand why people walk away. The EEOC worker told me that a lot of people are mistreated and discriminated against and very few fight it, and she said it's too bad cuz the majority of them would win.