Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 2798302 times)

Gronnie

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4700 on: March 26, 2023, 10:14:09 PM »
Only thing that could make it better is if that leave was fully paid.

My employer has "unlimited" PTO. I make full use of it and you can guarantee I would be really trying to take as much as I could if my manager asked me to take a long break!

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4701 on: March 26, 2023, 10:21:17 PM »
I'm also "unlimited PTO" but apparently that means "no more than 3 weeks at a time" and in absolutely no circumstance may it be combined with (during or touching either end of) an unpaid leave of absence.

Otherwise yes, I'd agree, it'd be better as fully paid. Although, to some degree, since they still cover 100% of health premiums and my RSUs keep vesting, I am getting paid -- just not at my normal salary.

jinga nation

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4702 on: March 27, 2023, 06:53:38 AM »
@AccidentialMustache Bravo! That is well-played. Who knew that Management also doesn't like HR? Irritating when titles get in the way of engineers with abilities and skills getting things done.

LightTripper

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4703 on: March 27, 2023, 04:28:40 PM »
Fantastic story - congratulations.  Hope you really enjoy your break and can properly unwind!

BuffaloStache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4704 on: March 28, 2023, 07:05:45 AM »
I'm also "unlimited PTO" but apparently that means "no more than 3 weeks at a time" and in absolutely no circumstance may it be combined with (during or touching either end of) an unpaid leave of absence.

Otherwise yes, I'd agree, it'd be better as fully paid. Although, to some degree, since they still cover 100% of health premiums and my RSUs keep vesting, I am getting paid -- just not at my normal salary.

Can you take 3 weeks off, "come back" remotely for one half-day, and then leave on an unpaid leave of absence? :-)

RWD

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4705 on: March 28, 2023, 07:35:58 AM »
I'm also "unlimited PTO" but apparently that means "no more than 3 weeks at a time" and in absolutely no circumstance may it be combined with (during or touching either end of) an unpaid leave of absence.

Otherwise yes, I'd agree, it'd be better as fully paid. Although, to some degree, since they still cover 100% of health premiums and my RSUs keep vesting, I am getting paid -- just not at my normal salary.

Can you take 3 weeks off, "come back" remotely for one half-day, and then leave on an unpaid leave of absence? :-)

I like the way you think

Gronnie

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4706 on: March 28, 2023, 09:50:34 AM »
I'm also "unlimited PTO" but apparently that means "no more than 3 weeks at a time" and in absolutely no circumstance may it be combined with (during or touching either end of) an unpaid leave of absence.

Otherwise yes, I'd agree, it'd be better as fully paid. Although, to some degree, since they still cover 100% of health premiums and my RSUs keep vesting, I am getting paid -- just not at my normal salary.

Can you take 3 weeks off, "come back" remotely for one half-day, and then leave on an unpaid leave of absence? :-)

Brilliant. Sometimes you just need to maliciously comply.

Laura33

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4707 on: March 28, 2023, 10:19:52 AM »
I'm also "unlimited PTO" but apparently that means "no more than 3 weeks at a time" and in absolutely no circumstance may it be combined with (during or touching either end of) an unpaid leave of absence.

Otherwise yes, I'd agree, it'd be better as fully paid. Although, to some degree, since they still cover 100% of health premiums and my RSUs keep vesting, I am getting paid -- just not at my normal salary.

Can you take 3 weeks off, "come back" remotely for one half-day, and then leave on an unpaid leave of absence? :-)

Brilliant. Sometimes you just need to maliciously comply.

"Malicious compliance" is my new favorite phrase. 

It's really the only appropriate response to stupid policies. 

RWD

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4708 on: March 28, 2023, 10:49:14 AM »
I'm also "unlimited PTO" but apparently that means "no more than 3 weeks at a time" and in absolutely no circumstance may it be combined with (during or touching either end of) an unpaid leave of absence.

Otherwise yes, I'd agree, it'd be better as fully paid. Although, to some degree, since they still cover 100% of health premiums and my RSUs keep vesting, I am getting paid -- just not at my normal salary.

Can you take 3 weeks off, "come back" remotely for one half-day, and then leave on an unpaid leave of absence? :-)

Brilliant. Sometimes you just need to maliciously comply.

"Malicious compliance" is my new favorite phrase. 

It's really the only appropriate response to stupid policies.

Relevant subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4709 on: April 01, 2023, 02:44:17 PM »
Well this has been a crazy week!

The bad news is we won't be going on a year long vagabonding trip this year... The program director and super agree that DW should work less days next year to make her contract fair. The super has also asked her to help design the new admin contracts next year. He's new to the district this past year and apparently really appreciated the way DW explained the problems in her contract. Changing them this year requires going back to the board of directors which means a lot of egg on a lot of people faces. The assistant super who has been a source of much stinginess is leaving this school year which gives me some home the negotiations will actually be in good faith next year.

But the the biggest change since I posted is that we've been asked to adopt a baby! Adopting is something we were considering but not actively pursuing when a friend of a friend reached out in December. By mid January it looked like it probably wasn't going to happen but that changed this week. Last night we met with the family for the first time and while I it is far from certain to happen, we're going to move forward with the process. While adoption is more affordable when the mother chooses you before giving birth it's still going to take real money to make it happen. Doesn't seem like FU money is a appropriate term, but I am thankful to know I can "figure out the money" if everything else works out.

With a decade of accrued unused sick leave, DW could take paid leave for half the year if the adoption goes through. If it doesn't, at least she still likes the work she is doing and the reduced time contract is no longer a total farce, so it looks like were here for at least OMY. If the adoption goes through and the contract negotiations don't go anywhere maybe in a year we'll be planning to slow travel North America with a toddler...

Update:

We brought home a healthy baby boy this week. There is still a ton of paperwork and some logistical hurtles before the adoption is complete, but it doesn't look like there are any major issues. He eats, sleeps and poops, which I understand is exactly what he is supposed to be doing at this point. DW will be on bonding leave completely for a couple of weeks and then have 1/2 time schedule with paid leave for the foreseeable future.

iluvzbeach

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4710 on: April 01, 2023, 02:52:55 PM »
CONGRATULATIONS from this internet stranger. That is terrific news.

Ladychips

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4711 on: April 01, 2023, 07:25:09 PM »
Yea for you!  Congratulations!!

BicycleB

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4712 on: April 02, 2023, 12:28:50 PM »
@Alternatepriorities, congratulations!!

BuffaloStache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4713 on: April 07, 2023, 03:12:26 PM »
echoing others, congrats!

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4714 on: April 07, 2023, 03:32:43 PM »
Awwww, congratulations to the new AP family!

Catbert

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4715 on: April 08, 2023, 10:43:16 AM »
Wow, that was a surprise twist.  Congrats.

calimom

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4716 on: April 08, 2023, 11:02:14 AM »
What a wonderful thing to read! Very happy for the new addition to the AP family!

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4717 on: April 08, 2023, 01:24:13 PM »
Thanks everyone!

So far things are going well with DS. He generally seems pretty happy when he's not having a diaper changed. DW did a week long nesting binge the week before he arrived and with some help from friends completely outfitted a nursery for under $400. The theme is "national parks and frugality"... I have a cousin who spent $10,000! I haven't seen her nursery so I have no idea how. DW didn't want to do a baby shower until we were sure it would happen... Now we're set through 6 months except for diapers so I think she's going to have more of a celebration and less of a shower...

Sibley

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4718 on: April 08, 2023, 02:03:12 PM »
Thanks everyone!

So far things are going well with DS. He generally seems pretty happy when he's not having a diaper changed. DW did a week long nesting binge the week before he arrived and with some help from friends completely outfitted a nursery for under $400. The theme is "national parks and frugality"... I have a cousin who spent $10,000! I haven't seen her nursery so I have no idea how. DW didn't want to do a baby shower until we were sure it would happen... Now we're set through 6 months except for diapers so I think she's going to have more of a celebration and less of a shower...

Ask everyone for sizes starting at 6+ months, and diapers.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4719 on: April 08, 2023, 10:33:00 PM »
Congrats!

If you want to go hardcore, cloth isn't that bad. Yes, you will do laundry every day or few (for us it was every day) and yes you may have to use the dryer (we'd line dry when we could, but sometimes you need a clean set sometime about NOW) but it really wasn't that bad and I'm the one who did the laundry processing. Yes it has a big startup cost but over time will likely save you money over time. Plus you won't dump a ton* of piss filled plastic in the landfill.

Would only recommend if you have a washer/dryer in-home though.

*: Apparently actually a literal half-ton if you believe https://mint.intuit.com/blog/planning/cloth-vs-disposable-diapers-a-cost-comparison-102011/ although the citation is kinda weak.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4720 on: April 09, 2023, 12:06:28 AM »
Ask everyone for sizes starting at 6+ months, and diapers.

I think that's what we're going to do. Hopefully we can also encourage people to get us used stuff. I've been actively working to help many of our friends understand money better, and while I am very grateful for everyone's support it just seems crazy to someone to pay $300 for a new item we can get barely used for $20! It's not like new baby actually wear thing out. (except diapers)

Congrats!

If you want to go hardcore, cloth isn't that bad. Yes, you will do laundry every day or few (for us it was every day) and yes you may have to use the dryer (we'd line dry when we could, but sometimes you need a clean set sometime about NOW) but it really wasn't that bad and I'm the one who did the laundry processing. Yes it has a big startup cost but over time will likely save you money over time. Plus you won't dump a ton* of piss filled plastic in the landfill.

Would only recommend if you have a washer/dryer in-home though.

*: Apparently actually a literal half-ton if you believe https://mint.intuit.com/blog/planning/cloth-vs-disposable-diapers-a-cost-comparison-102011/ although the citation is kinda weak.

I might look into that once I feel like i have a grip on how it works. I have memories of my parents doing clothe diapers for my younger siblings and they are not very pleasant. We did not have a washer and dryer at home though and I suspect the diapers themselves have come a long way in the past three decades.

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4721 on: April 09, 2023, 04:27:20 AM »
Not my FU money story, but rather my GF's.

GF and I have a trip to Germany planned this summer. Going to be spending just short of two weeks there, ending with a 5 day music festival. Trip has been planned since May of last year. Plane tickets were bought in January.

GF works as a lab assistant at the local hospital. She's currently working full time while also doing online classes for an MLT degree (Medical Laboratory Technician). She's not a Mustachian, but she is frugal and very financially responsible, so despite only making about $55k a year she still saves a considerable amount of her income (I don't know exactly how much, but probably close to 50% of her take home). As a result, she's in a very good spot financially (a year of expenses in savings plus about the same amount invested in the market) and understands that she has FU money.

She put her PTO request in for the Germany trip back in January when the plane tickets were purchased. PTO was approved, no issues. Fast forward to 3 weeks ago, GF gets sick. Ends up being COVID, and hospital requires that she not return to work until symptom free. This ends up being about 2 weeks. At beginning of quarantine period GF speaks with HR representative over the phone and asks about the time off will be handled in terms of filing for short term disability, using PTO, etcetera. Is told that her PTO will not be impacted if she files for short term disability. Sweet!

GF returns to work after recovering from COVID to be told that actually her PTO *was* used, and now she doesn't have enough to cover the Germany trip this summer. Oops! Manager says she will need to "change her trip plans" now that she doesn't have enough PTO. GF explains that she will not be changing her travel plans, and that despite the fact that she was told by HR that her PTO would not be impacted by her sick leave, she is fine with just taking unpaid leave if necessary for the vacation. Manager says nope, "We can't give you that much time off without PTO." GF says "Alright, well then consider this my notice that I'll be quitting when I leave for my trip in July."

Manager is gobsmacked. "You'd risk your job over a trip?" GF explains that though she likes her job and the people she works with, she doesn't need the job and they are not paying her enough to issue her ultimatums. She tells them that she can easily find a job that pays more than what they are paying her (which is absolutely true, there are entry level factory jobs in our area that pay more with no experience needed) and the trip has more value to her than the job.

Next day at work manager states that they are going to allow her the time off and expresses a desire to further incentivize her to stay with the company.

Moral of the story? Middle managers fear workers with FU Money.

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4722 on: April 09, 2023, 06:02:52 AM »
^Your GF sounds like a keeper.^

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4723 on: April 09, 2023, 06:38:03 AM »
^Your GF sounds like a keeper.^
heck yes!

Zamboni

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4724 on: April 09, 2023, 06:38:14 AM »
Great use of FU money, @Valley of Plenty 's girlfriend!

grantmeaname

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4725 on: April 09, 2023, 07:01:40 AM »
idk why you say she's not a mustachian. 50% savings rate on that income and a big middle finger for the petty tyrants in an entry level job sounds perfectly mustachian to me

Malossi792

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4726 on: April 09, 2023, 07:31:47 AM »
idk why you say she's not a mustachian. 50% savings rate on that income and a big middle finger for the petty tyrants in an entry level job sounds perfectly mustachian to me
+1
Great story, too!

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4727 on: April 09, 2023, 07:33:22 AM »
^Your GF sounds like a keeper.^
heck yes!

Great common sense and lots of moxie!   A great combination!   

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4728 on: April 09, 2023, 05:58:24 PM »
idk why you say she's not a mustachian. 50% savings rate on that income and a big middle finger for the petty tyrants in an entry level job sounds perfectly mustachian to me

She certainly lives a Mustachian lifestyle, I just meant that she doesn't identify as such. The difference is mostly semantic I suppose :)

BlueHouse

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4729 on: April 09, 2023, 08:04:47 PM »

Then I sent an email to my contact at the third-party company (it was a response to her "we can't change our standard contract" message) saying "I think we're finished here."  When a manger got back to me (quite quickly, compared to the previous pace of responses) I got to reply with "which part of "I think we're finished here" was unclear? Please delete my information from your computers."

Then I went for a walk in the sun, which was lovely!

Good for you.  The unfortunate part is that these companies act this way because they take advantage of so many people who either don't read the contract or agree to verbal assurances. 

Love the part about taking a walk in the sun.

Awesome for jeninco! 

And yes, many people don't read the contract, and I'll just add that many others don't realize that they don't have to wait for someone else to modify the contract.  I've been in nearly identical situations and I've found that the contracting officials or managers at these companies typically don't have enough experience and just don't feel comfortable modifying a standard form.  So they think they can't   I've crossed out entire blocks of text, changed terms, changed dates and significant parts of the "standard" form just by writing over it and initialling it.  Then I sign and return.  More often than not they sign it without further changes.  If it does require a change, I've given them a starting point. 

Of course, my contracts were always kind of small (under $1M over a period of a year or more), so I don't think anyone senior was working on it, and when I submitted changes, all the person had to do was show it to someone more senior to get it approved. 

So many of the terms Jen identified have shown up in my contracts too.  Not getting paid for 30 days after the prime contractor gets paid is one of the craziest but it's so common, I assume many people sign it.  I always cross it out and when there's pushback (almost always), I just say "I have no control over when or how you get paid, and it has nothing to do with the work that you're hiring me to do".  I honestly feel as if I'm educating their legal rep when I sign a contract with them. I know they're learning things and have just never questioned "the way things are done"


jeninco

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4730 on: April 10, 2023, 08:51:06 AM »

Then I sent an email to my contact at the third-party company (it was a response to her "we can't change our standard contract" message) saying "I think we're finished here."  When a manger got back to me (quite quickly, compared to the previous pace of responses) I got to reply with "which part of "I think we're finished here" was unclear? Please delete my information from your computers."

Then I went for a walk in the sun, which was lovely!

Good for you.  The unfortunate part is that these companies act this way because they take advantage of so many people who either don't read the contract or agree to verbal assurances. 

Love the part about taking a walk in the sun.

Awesome for jeninco! 

And yes, many people don't read the contract, and I'll just add that many others don't realize that they don't have to wait for someone else to modify the contract.  I've been in nearly identical situations and I've found that the contracting officials or managers at these companies typically don't have enough experience and just don't feel comfortable modifying a standard form.  So they think they can't   I've crossed out entire blocks of text, changed terms, changed dates and significant parts of the "standard" form just by writing over it and initialling it.  Then I sign and return.  More often than not they sign it without further changes.  If it does require a change, I've given them a starting point. 

Of course, my contracts were always kind of small (under $1M over a period of a year or more), so I don't think anyone senior was working on it, and when I submitted changes, all the person had to do was show it to someone more senior to get it approved. 

So many of the terms Jen identified have shown up in my contracts too.  Not getting paid for 30 days after the prime contractor gets paid is one of the craziest but it's so common, I assume many people sign it.  I always cross it out and when there's pushback (almost always), I just say "I have no control over when or how you get paid, and it has nothing to do with the work that you're hiring me to do".  I honestly feel as if I'm educating their legal rep when I sign a contract with them. I know they're learning things and have just never questioned "the way things are done"

I was intending to do this (cross out and initial portions of the contract), but it's an electronic document, and they required that it be e-signed (in its entirety). Which means they'd have to make the changes on THEIR side, which they persistently refused to do.

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4731 on: April 10, 2023, 01:51:23 PM »
Not my FU money story, but rather my GF's.

GF and I have a trip to Germany planned this summer. Going to be spending just short of two weeks there, ending with a 5 day music festival. Trip has been planned since May of last year. Plane tickets were bought in January.

GF works as a lab assistant at the local hospital. She's currently working full time while also doing online classes for an MLT degree (Medical Laboratory Technician). She's not a Mustachian, but she is frugal and very financially responsible, so despite only making about $55k a year she still saves a considerable amount of her income (I don't know exactly how much, but probably close to 50% of her take home). As a result, she's in a very good spot financially (a year of expenses in savings plus about the same amount invested in the market) and understands that she has FU money.

She put her PTO request in for the Germany trip back in January when the plane tickets were purchased. PTO was approved, no issues. Fast forward to 3 weeks ago, GF gets sick. Ends up being COVID, and hospital requires that she not return to work until symptom free. This ends up being about 2 weeks. At beginning of quarantine period GF speaks with HR representative over the phone and asks about the time off will be handled in terms of filing for short term disability, using PTO, etcetera. Is told that her PTO will not be impacted if she files for short term disability. Sweet!

GF returns to work after recovering from COVID to be told that actually her PTO *was* used, and now she doesn't have enough to cover the Germany trip this summer. Oops! Manager says she will need to "change her trip plans" now that she doesn't have enough PTO. GF explains that she will not be changing her travel plans, and that despite the fact that she was told by HR that her PTO would not be impacted by her sick leave, she is fine with just taking unpaid leave if necessary for the vacation. Manager says nope, "We can't give you that much time off without PTO." GF says "Alright, well then consider this my notice that I'll be quitting when I leave for my trip in July."

Manager is gobsmacked. "You'd risk your job over a trip?" GF explains that though she likes her job and the people she works with, she doesn't need the job and they are not paying her enough to issue her ultimatums. She tells them that she can easily find a job that pays more than what they are paying her (which is absolutely true, there are entry level factory jobs in our area that pay more with no experience needed) and the trip has more value to her than the job.

Next day at work manager states that they are going to allow her the time off and expresses a desire to further incentivize her to stay with the company.

Moral of the story? Middle managers fear workers with FU Money.
This is awesome, and as I read it - I knew the outcome ahead of time, but it was still a great read.

This kind of thing gobsmacks me.  I have never ever changed vacation plans for any of my companies.  I plan MONTHS ahead.  Sure, I occasionally will call in on PTO, if it's a staycation, or if I'm taking 2 weeks visiting family in the summer.

But I've worked with people (at my same companies) who do this and expect others too and ... nope.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2023, 01:53:21 PM by mm1970 »

scottish

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4732 on: April 10, 2023, 03:36:37 PM »
Not my FU money story, but rather my GF's.

GF and I have a trip to Germany planned this summer. Going to be spending just short of two weeks there, ending with a 5 day music festival. Trip has been planned since May of last year. Plane tickets were bought in January.

GF works as a lab assistant at the local hospital. She's currently working full time while also doing online classes for an MLT degree (Medical Laboratory Technician). She's not a Mustachian, but she is frugal and very financially responsible, so despite only making about $55k a year she still saves a considerable amount of her income (I don't know exactly how much, but probably close to 50% of her take home). As a result, she's in a very good spot financially (a year of expenses in savings plus about the same amount invested in the market) and understands that she has FU money.

She put her PTO request in for the Germany trip back in January when the plane tickets were purchased. PTO was approved, no issues. Fast forward to 3 weeks ago, GF gets sick. Ends up being COVID, and hospital requires that she not return to work until symptom free. This ends up being about 2 weeks. At beginning of quarantine period GF speaks with HR representative over the phone and asks about the time off will be handled in terms of filing for short term disability, using PTO, etcetera. Is told that her PTO will not be impacted if she files for short term disability. Sweet!

GF returns to work after recovering from COVID to be told that actually her PTO *was* used, and now she doesn't have enough to cover the Germany trip this summer. Oops! Manager says she will need to "change her trip plans" now that she doesn't have enough PTO. GF explains that she will not be changing her travel plans, and that despite the fact that she was told by HR that her PTO would not be impacted by her sick leave, she is fine with just taking unpaid leave if necessary for the vacation. Manager says nope, "We can't give you that much time off without PTO." GF says "Alright, well then consider this my notice that I'll be quitting when I leave for my trip in July."

Manager is gobsmacked. "You'd risk your job over a trip?" GF explains that though she likes her job and the people she works with, she doesn't need the job and they are not paying her enough to issue her ultimatums. She tells them that she can easily find a job that pays more than what they are paying her (which is absolutely true, there are entry level factory jobs in our area that pay more with no experience needed) and the trip has more value to her than the job.

Next day at work manager states that they are going to allow her the time off and expresses a desire to further incentivize her to stay with the company.

Moral of the story? Middle managers fear workers with FU Money.
This is awesome, and as I read it - I knew the outcome ahead of time, but it was still a great read.

This kind of thing gobsmacks me.  I have never ever changed vacation plans for any of my companies.  I plan MONTHS ahead.  Sure, I occasionally will call in on PTO, if it's a staycation, or if I'm taking 2 weeks visiting family in the summer.

But I've worked with people (at my same companies) who do this and expect others too and ... nope.

I remember - back in 2010 - I answered work email on vacation once.   Big mistake.   I highly recommend no access to work email on vacation.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4733 on: April 10, 2023, 04:41:29 PM »
Yeah, I always wonder about people who check their email daily while on vacation. That would suck up at least an hour of active attention and several hours of mental energy, draining away the whole re-charge aspect of vacation. Solution? Backpacking in the wilderness with no cell service. Or international travel where it’s “too expensive”.

ATtiny85

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4734 on: April 10, 2023, 05:26:21 PM »
I sometimes scan email once in a while when out of the office. Just in case there is a “can’t find the firehose” situation where 30 seconds can save three days effort upon return. Might spend about a minute every couple days doing a scan on my phone. If that really, and only when I am expecting something. Though now that I am an individual contributor after many years as a supervisor, I rarely am expecting anything except for the yearly bonus amount email that comes out while I am always on vacation over Thanksgiving week. And for sure the laptop stays in the home office whenever I go anywhere. The balance works well for me.

charis

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4735 on: April 10, 2023, 06:09:43 PM »
I sometimes scan email once in a while when out of the office. Just in case there is a “can’t find the firehose” situation where 30 seconds can save three days effort upon return. Might spend about a minute every couple days doing a scan on my phone. If that really, and only when I am expecting something. Though now that I am an individual contributor after many years as a supervisor, I rarely am expecting anything except for the yearly bonus amount email that comes out while I am always on vacation over Thanksgiving week. And for sure the laptop stays in the home office whenever I go anywhere. The balance works well for me.

Same to the bolded. I tend to have some team members that will blow up something that I can adequately address in a short email.  I won't respond unless absolutely necessary to save myself a hassle but I do glance at my email.

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4736 on: April 11, 2023, 12:02:53 AM »
Vacation is to get your head free wof work and relax. I can't see how reading work emails helps with that.

If you are in a position where you might really be needed, in an emergency your secretary or boss or teammate whatever can have your phone number. And if they call, if you have to work, it's a work day not a vacation and if you are away of course the hotel costs etc. for that one day have to be paid by the company.

That makes sure that you are only called when needed - not wanted.

ATtiny85

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4737 on: April 11, 2023, 05:20:14 AM »
Vacation is to get your head free wof work and relax. I can't see how reading work emails helps with that.

If you are in a position where you might really be needed, in an emergency your secretary or boss or teammate whatever can have your phone number. And if they call, if you have to work, it's a work day not a vacation and if you are away of course the hotel costs etc. for that one day have to be paid by the company.

That makes sure that you are only called when needed - not wanted.

I generally agree, but I do think you need to consider the total situation. When I lived and worked in Germany (Stuttgart automotive) my German coworkers taught me about needing a full three weeks to fully unwind. However, that same crew was often working deep into the evening. I found that to be insane and only let myself get caught up in one 11pm idiotic "Feierabend" where we were working on a basic design problem. Nope. I can see why that crew needed three week holidays. Not me, I walk out at 4pm, partly because that's long enough, and partly to be a good example to my people (when I had people.)

Just a small viewpoint, not meant to be argumentative. I will say that the crew was very very good about work coverage, and were empowered and able to make a lot of decisions for someone who was out. That was a nice piece of it, and something I have found lacking in my other two companies, and that likely adds to the problem.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4738 on: April 11, 2023, 11:27:25 AM »
Vacation is to get your head free wof work and relax. I can't see how reading work emails helps with that.

If you are in a position where you might really be needed, in an emergency your secretary or boss or teammate whatever can have your phone number. And if they call, if you have to work, it's a work day not a vacation and if you are away of course the hotel costs etc. for that one day have to be paid by the company.

That makes sure that you are only called when needed - not wanted.

I generally agree, but I do think you need to consider the total situation. When I lived and worked in Germany (Stuttgart automotive) my German coworkers taught me about needing a full three weeks to fully unwind. However, that same crew was often working deep into the evening. I found that to be insane and only let myself get caught up in one 11pm idiotic "Feierabend" where we were working on a basic design problem. Nope. I can see why that crew needed three week holidays. Not me, I walk out at 4pm, partly because that's long enough, and partly to be a good example to my people (when I had people.)

Just a small viewpoint, not meant to be argumentative. I will say that the crew was very very good about work coverage, and were empowered and able to make a lot of decisions for someone who was out. That was a nice piece of it, and something I have found lacking in my other two companies, and that likely adds to the problem.

Yeah, @LennStar I think this is a bit projecting what you feel onto others.

Some people need to get away entirely to recharge.
Some people need to get away entirely to meet regulatory requirements (e.g. banking in some positions requires a full week off for fraud reasons).
Some people prefer to keep an eye on things so nothing blows up majorly while they are out. This may entail skimming key emails, forwarding emails to people covering or sometimes writing a short response.
Some people like to know what they are walking into on their return, but don't actual do anything with the emails they read.
Some people don't want their colleagues/bosses/subordinates to have to expend 10x energy that would take them a fraction of the time. Usually this favor is returned when those others are on vacation.

What works for you might not work for others. They are big kids, they get to decide what works best for them and you get to decide what works for you.

- A new employee who just choose to put work email on her phone to read it while away in case anything critical needs to be forwarded, and discovered I'm eligible for a $50/month phone subsidy for doing so. :)

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4739 on: April 11, 2023, 01:00:15 PM »
Yeah, @LennStar I think this is a bit projecting what you feel onto others.
Might be, but more important it's scientific result and more or less law here in Germany - I took that "company pays for hotel when employee told to work" from a court case - one about a manager that even had in his contract to be always available if I remember correctly. Because here it's law that you take your holiday.
In a way even if you are working purely out of your own free will, you are in breach of your work contract, because the worker is to avoid damaging his working power through his actions, and a vacation has the goal to renew those powers.

Captain FIRE

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4740 on: April 11, 2023, 01:52:36 PM »
It’s most definitely not the law in the US (aside from certain employees in highly regulated areas like banking noted above).

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4741 on: April 11, 2023, 02:18:21 PM »
Yeah, @LennStar I think this is a bit projecting what you feel onto others.
Might be, but more important it's scientific result and more or less law here in Germany - I took that "company pays for hotel when employee told to work" from a court case - one about a manager that even had in his contract to be always available if I remember correctly. Because here it's law that you take your holiday.
In a way even if you are working purely out of your own free will, you are in breach of your work contract, because the worker is to avoid damaging his working power through his actions, and a vacation has the goal to renew those powers.

Are these work contracts fairly standard across employers/industries? Is there a whole industry of attorneys and consultants to help negotiate them?

Most employment in the US does not include a written contract. Or there may be some company policy or employee handbook that you have to sign, but those are more for liability protection for the company so they can later show "Our employee handbook says if you show up drunk to work you can be fired" or something along those lines. If you're working for a small business there's almost certainly no written contract or anything beyond a job description that was included in the job posting. I have an employee for my business, and everything was verbal "Would you like a job doing X, Y, and Z at $ per hour" "Yes" "Ok, you'll start on Monday".

Extramedium

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4742 on: April 11, 2023, 02:43:33 PM »
idk why you say she's not a mustachian. 50% savings rate on that income and a big middle finger for the petty tyrants in an entry level job sounds perfectly mustachian to me

She certainly lives a Mustachian lifestyle, I just meant that she doesn't identify as such. The difference is mostly semantic I suppose :)

I don't think you need to know what "Mustachian" means to be a model Mustachian.  Pete didn't try to be a Mustachian until he invented the character for the blog.  He was just being himself.

Great story!

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4743 on: April 11, 2023, 11:56:11 PM »
Yeah, @LennStar I think this is a bit projecting what you feel onto others.
Might be, but more important it's scientific result and more or less law here in Germany - I took that "company pays for hotel when employee told to work" from a court case - one about a manager that even had in his contract to be always available if I remember correctly. Because here it's law that you take your holiday.
In a way even if you are working purely out of your own free will, you are in breach of your work contract, because the worker is to avoid damaging his working power through his actions, and a vacation has the goal to renew those powers.

Are these work contracts fairly standard across employers/industries? Is there a whole industry of attorneys and consultants to help negotiate them?

No, those things are generally not in contracts. For various reasons, not least the company does not want it, but also because in most companies nobody would think about calling Jonny Worker during their vacation. Managers are different, as are e.g. IT guys if the server room has a fire, but that is where those court rulings come from.

And yes, everyone here has a written contract, though most of them are some sort of standard that of course isn't too friendly for workers. But if you are so important that you get called in your vacation, you probably have a non-standard one.

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4744 on: April 13, 2023, 04:31:50 AM »
Not my FU money story, but rather my GF's.

GF and I have a trip to Germany planned this summer. Going to be spending just short of two weeks there, ending with a 5 day music festival. Trip has been planned since May of last year. Plane tickets were bought in January.

GF works as a lab assistant at the local hospital. She's currently working full time while also doing online classes for an MLT degree (Medical Laboratory Technician). She's not a Mustachian, but she is frugal and very financially responsible, so despite only making about $55k a year she still saves a considerable amount of her income (I don't know exactly how much, but probably close to 50% of her take home). As a result, she's in a very good spot financially (a year of expenses in savings plus about the same amount invested in the market) and understands that she has FU money.

She put her PTO request in for the Germany trip back in January when the plane tickets were purchased. PTO was approved, no issues. Fast forward to 3 weeks ago, GF gets sick. Ends up being COVID, and hospital requires that she not return to work until symptom free. This ends up being about 2 weeks. At beginning of quarantine period GF speaks with HR representative over the phone and asks about the time off will be handled in terms of filing for short term disability, using PTO, etcetera. Is told that her PTO will not be impacted if she files for short term disability. Sweet!

GF returns to work after recovering from COVID to be told that actually her PTO *was* used, and now she doesn't have enough to cover the Germany trip this summer. Oops! Manager says she will need to "change her trip plans" now that she doesn't have enough PTO. GF explains that she will not be changing her travel plans, and that despite the fact that she was told by HR that her PTO would not be impacted by her sick leave, she is fine with just taking unpaid leave if necessary for the vacation. Manager says nope, "We can't give you that much time off without PTO." GF says "Alright, well then consider this my notice that I'll be quitting when I leave for my trip in July."

Manager is gobsmacked. "You'd risk your job over a trip?" GF explains that though she likes her job and the people she works with, she doesn't need the job and they are not paying her enough to issue her ultimatums. She tells them that she can easily find a job that pays more than what they are paying her (which is absolutely true, there are entry level factory jobs in our area that pay more with no experience needed) and the trip has more value to her than the job.

Next day at work manager states that they are going to allow her the time off and expresses a desire to further incentivize her to stay with the company.

Moral of the story? Middle managers fear workers with FU Money.
This is awesome, and as I read it - I knew the outcome ahead of time, but it was still a great read.

This kind of thing gobsmacks me.  I have never ever changed vacation plans for any of my companies.  I plan MONTHS ahead.  Sure, I occasionally will call in on PTO, if it's a staycation, or if I'm taking 2 weeks visiting family in the summer.

But I've worked with people (at my same companies) who do this and expect others too and ... nope.

My very first job out of high school was at a factory, making minimum wage ($7.25/hr). When I started the job I informed them that I had a family trip to Hawaii coming up in 2 months, and asked if they would be okay with giving me that time off (about a week and a half). They said they would have to evaluate their staffing needs closer to the date but it shouldn't be a problem. Fast forward 6 weeks and I followed up with my manager to ask if they were going to give me time off for my trip, which was now in 2 weeks. They said that we were too busy and they weren't going to be able to do it.

Manager's exact words were "You're going to have to decide what's more important. That trip or your job."

My response was "You're paying me minimum wage and this is a trip to Hawaii. That's an easy choice to make."

I was still living with parents at the time so I basically had no expenses. Put in some applications before leaving for Hawaii and had a job offer somewhere else for more money before I got back home. This was a decade ago and I still can't believe they were delusional enough to give me an ultimatum over a minimum wage job. Beyond delusional.

ATtiny85

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4745 on: April 13, 2023, 04:37:19 AM »
Nicely done! Being aware at that age (assuming you were a “kid”) is awesome. Easier to be pressured/bullied in the early days.

(How was the vacation?)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 04:39:50 AM by ATtiny85 »

jinga nation

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4746 on: April 13, 2023, 12:40:25 PM »
BLUF: Planning on leaving a well-paid job due to false promises, bad contracting, and insufficient staffing, while being able to sleep well and not worry. That's FU Money power.

Not epic, so far, but could be as things happen...

Started with a new company recently, huge raise from previous employer.
The technical lead on this project and the project manager, who don't work for my employer, told my corporate boss that I should be more proactive and accept additional tasks and it'll be great for my career. This is only 30 days in, while I still didn't have access to the SW development tools, accounts, etc, and was going thru the customer site's processes. My corporate boss and his boss started raising their voices in the meeting, without listening to me. Red Flag 1.
New position's requirements were A, B, C. Now they've added D, E, F, G to it. I've pushed back. They know I'm not going to fold. I know they don't like my attitude. Also want me to work on software sales (which I have zero training in, and don't know the product). Red Flag 2.
During recruiting, was told that I'd be a member of a team (employees of other companies) which was fully staffed and that I was to be at the customer site daily. (Don't have an issue with the commute, I enjoy a hybrid/onsite schedule.) Turns out that everyone on this team works multiple contracts, and none of them are full-time onsite, not even 50%. Plus, the other teams I'm supposed to work with onsite, they work from home 3+ days a week. So I'm wondering how do I get tasks accomplished, especially since most of my work is on internal networks that are inaccessible from home. Red Flag 3.
I was told that I'd be starting my own team soon. The contract I'm on is up for renewal in a couple of months, and it'll get renewed. But the idea of building my team is dead, that plan was hijacked by another larger firm on the same contract. My employer knew this, but didn't tell me. Red Flag 4.

Wrote down pros/cons of old employer vs new one. Discussed with my wife. Talked to ex-coworkers, my old position hasn't been filled. Ex-employer has trouble filling openings. Ex-CW-1 is going to talk to his boss, my ex-boss, to have me come back. Informed Ex-CW-2 about new employer's Red Flags, as they're trying to recruit them. Ex-CW-1 gets to collect hiring bonus bounty on me.

I told wife not to worry, there aren't enough IT/SW engineers with DoD clearance, that I'd be getting LinkedIn offers like crazy if I set my profile to #OpenToWork. Also we have enough in emergency account that I don't have to work for a couple of years. We're technically FI. House is paid off. Rental income covers our living expenses. I could stay home, work out daily, longer bike rides, cook 3 meals daily, do yard work, get bathrooms renovated, start the vegetable/herb garden we've always wanted, volunteer at the school. And spend time with my retired dad. Told my wife it'd be my dream come true to be a house husband / kept man / soccer-sports dad.
With the political bumfuckery in my state, I could even home school my kids, if their very good schools got proper fucked.

UPDATE: ex-CW-1 said ex-boss wants me to return and will reach out. Meeting ex-CW-1 tomorrow to discuss more.

UPDATE2: talked to ex-boss today. They want me back; we talked compensation and start date. Fingers crossed. Initially getting my old position, plus additional responsibilities to work part-time with an automation team - something that I had wanted to do last year but could contractually. They won a new long-term contract and more, opening up possibilities to pick & choose what I can dabble in. Have fun AND get paid.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 08:38:19 PM by jinga nation »

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4747 on: April 13, 2023, 11:39:12 PM »
^Fingers crossed.^

Minion

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4748 on: April 14, 2023, 01:15:46 AM »
Sending all my best vibes this works out in your favour

jfer_rose

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4749 on: April 14, 2023, 06:21:17 AM »
@jinga nation I am cheering you on whatever you decide but especially hoping you quit your job entirely and live out your house husband dreams!