Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 2798340 times)

scottish

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2716
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4550 on: February 07, 2023, 05:19:26 PM »
Good for you, @bluebelle, they count on most of us not having the patience to stick through all that. Impressive and I too hope your pain is lessened.
my pain has lessened for a few reasons, not on a keyboard for WAY too many hours a day, every day, found physio and chiro that actually worked for me, found ways to do things that lessen the pain flair ups, and I go lay on a foam roller or stretch when I need to.   Folding laundry still sucks, working at the kitchen sink or counter.....anything with my head down and my arms out in front of me.....

Have you tried yoga?   It's slowly fixing the tight spots in my back, my calf and my right shoulder...

jeninco

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3995
  • Location: .... duh?
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4551 on: February 07, 2023, 09:08:22 PM »
Just realized I have one of these.

Background: I do a specific kind of technical consulting. I've done it for 25 years or so, mostly as an independent contractor. I have a fair bit of experience, and I'm a bit of a bargain, given my background.

A friend working for local company asked if I'd do some work with them. The project sounded interesting, their client approved me (based on my resume and a conversation), but his company hires contractors through another, third party company. So someone poked them, and they reached out to me. I went through their "are you really an independent consultant" screening, and then they said "great! Just sign this contract, and you can get started."

It was terrible, both in form and in content. The contract was embedded in a webpage in a way that made it impossible to print (short of, I guess, taking screen shots and scrolling, but it was 11 pages long...) and had some really problematic issues, like not including my rate, or the terms of payment (other than "after we get paid"), and including unspecified "fees and costs", and requiring me to consent to some requirements that I flat-out wasn't going to agree to --like fingerprinting and drug testing -- and this is not for security work, or anything involving healthcare, or children. Their version of "negotiating" was basically trying to bully me into agreeing to it, although they did try "that clause doesn't apply to you!" to which I replied "then strike it". "Oh, we can't change our standard contract." There were plenty of other issues, too, including with the succession and arbitration clauses...

Finally, after a couple of weeks of this, I reached out to my friend and said "I'm very sorry, but I can't sign this. Here are three process problems with the company you're working with, and here are three concrete problems with the contract, if you want to go to your management and suggest they work with a different vendor." (He asked "if we get those changed, would you do the work" and I said "at this point, I don't care to work with companies that do business that way, and I'm in the incredibly fortunate position to not have to do work I don't want to do. You need to change vendors!")

Then I sent an email to my contact at the third-party company (it was a response to her "we can't change our standard contract" message) saying "I think we're finished here."  When a manger got back to me (quite quickly, compared to the previous pace of responses) I got to reply with "which part of "I think we're finished here" was unclear? Please delete my information from your computers."

Then I went for a walk in the sun, which was lovely!

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4552 on: February 07, 2023, 09:47:22 PM »
"which part of "I think we're finished here" was unclear? Please delete my information from your computers."
SUPER badass. Well done.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: Germany
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4553 on: February 08, 2023, 12:55:34 AM »
Especially the walk in the sun part.

RWTL

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 682
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4554 on: February 08, 2023, 03:26:44 AM »

Then I sent an email to my contact at the third-party company (it was a response to her "we can't change our standard contract" message) saying "I think we're finished here."  When a manger got back to me (quite quickly, compared to the previous pace of responses) I got to reply with "which part of "I think we're finished here" was unclear? Please delete my information from your computers."

Then I went for a walk in the sun, which was lovely!

Good for you.  The unfortunate part is that these companies act this way because they take advantage of so many people who either don't read the contract or agree to verbal assurances. 

Love the part about taking a walk in the sun. 

alcon835

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 777
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4555 on: February 08, 2023, 08:14:27 AM »
A very epic FU!! I love the power to just...walk away.

I am in a bit of an FU situation right now. Letting it percolate a bit more, but I will probably have a story soon either way

lhamo

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3091
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4556 on: February 08, 2023, 08:25:40 AM »
A very epic FU!! I love the power to just...walk away.

I am in a bit of an FU situation right now. Letting it percolate a bit more, but I will probably have a story soon either way

[Looking for popcorn at 7:25 am...]

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22318
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4557 on: February 08, 2023, 09:07:08 AM »
A very epic FU!! I love the power to just...walk away.

I am in a bit of an FU situation right now. Letting it percolate a bit more, but I will probably have a story soon either way

[Looking for popcorn at 7:25 am...]
I have some we can share.

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1635
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4558 on: February 08, 2023, 09:33:19 AM »
Then I went for a walk in the sun, which was lovely!

That’s a fantastic way to celebrate not signing a terrible contract! Well done.

Dumb blonde

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4559 on: February 08, 2023, 09:44:44 AM »
A few years ago I worked as a project manager for a non-profit organization. I was new to the organization and was hired for a 2-year project. The team was great, the work was great, I had the best time in years. We worked really hard and got a lot done in just over a year. The team consisted of a manager, 4 project managers (including me), and an assistant. I knew the manager had problems with his boss (let's call her A.). They didn't get along. The other project managers didn't like A. either. They had worked with her for many years. Before A. was promoted she herself had also worked as a project manager so they had been co-workers. I met with A. on a few occasions, and though I too didn't like her very much, she seemed supportive of our work as a team.

Things started to go wrong when the assistant was fired by A. Our manager wanted to keep her, but A. wanted her to go. So the assistant had to leave. A new assistant for the team was hired by A. The new assistant was way overqualified for the job. She was a very nice lady, and got along great with the team. A. had promised her that over the coming months she would be promoted from assistant to project manager. She was young but she sure would have made a great project manager. So the new assistant stayed and waited. Of course that didn't happen, but A. kept on saying that probably next months, things would be different. Meanwhile our manager didn't have a say in this, he had to take orders from A.

Then one day our manager couldn't take the b*llsh*t from A. anymore and he resigned. A new manager was hired. The new manager was best friends with A., and it was clear that she was not hired for her abilities. At this point I didn't like my job that much anymore. On her second day of work (!) the new manager fired 2 project managers, my co-workers. I was shocked, and I resigned that same day. I didn't have a job lined up, but thankfully I had money saved up.

Fast-forward a few years: after our successful first year the project was extended for 3 more years, but it never picked up speed again, the impact was reduced to almost zero. The new assistant resigned a few days after me. The remaining project manager landed another job a few weeks later. So basically, the whole team was gone within a few weeks.

The 'new manager' is still working there. Over the last few years there have been at least 6 different project managers who all resigned within a year. Last week the 'new manager' called me if I wanted to come back for the final months of the project. I politely declined.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: Germany
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4560 on: February 08, 2023, 10:21:17 AM »
That's not a situation where you politely answer. That's a situation where you laugh loudly and stopp the connection.

Tempname23

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 211
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4561 on: February 08, 2023, 01:10:06 PM »
Sounds like you could add, "You need me a whole lot more than I need you."

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3493
  • Age: 94
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4562 on: February 08, 2023, 01:18:16 PM »
Finally, after a couple of weeks of this, I reached out to my friend and said "I'm very sorry, but I can't sign this. Here are three process problems with the company you're working with, and here are three concrete problems with the contract, if you want to go to your management and suggest they work with a different vendor." (He asked "if we get those changed, would you do the work" and I said "at this point, I don't care to work with companies that do business that way, and I'm in the incredibly fortunate position to not have to do work I don't want to do. You need to change vendors!")
Well done. Providing specific feed back is also good and professional. Burdensome (in language and process) contracting is a highly efficient way to get both teaming partners and clients to stop working with your organization.

jeninco

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3995
  • Location: .... duh?
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4563 on: February 08, 2023, 01:50:16 PM »
Finally, after a couple of weeks of this, I reached out to my friend and said "I'm very sorry, but I can't sign this. Here are three process problems with the company you're working with, and here are three concrete problems with the contract, if you want to go to your management and suggest they work with a different vendor." (He asked "if we get those changed, would you do the work" and I said "at this point, I don't care to work with companies that do business that way, and I'm in the incredibly fortunate position to not have to do work I don't want to do. You need to change vendors!")
Well done. Providing specific feed back is also good and professional. Burdensome (in language and process) contracting is a highly efficient way to get both teaming partners and clients to stop working with your organization.

Yeah, My DH helped me translate my original draft about that into "guy". ("Less emoting, more grunting"). The final version was designed to be something he could pass up the chain, if anyone cared.

Dumb blonde

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4564 on: February 09, 2023, 07:35:57 AM »
That's not a situation where you politely answer. That's a situation where you laugh loudly and stopp the connection.

Yeah, I thought of that after I hung up. I was so flabbergasted that I forgot to react appropriately. :D

jeninco

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3995
  • Location: .... duh?
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4565 on: February 09, 2023, 07:55:05 AM »
That's not a situation where you politely answer. That's a situation where you laugh loudly and stopp the connection.

Yeah, I thought of that after I hung up. I was so flabbergasted that I forgot to react appropriately. :D

When I was talking with friends (mostly guys) who do contracting, and described my situation, the answer was (laughing) "Hahaha (not laughing)  No"

I decided I'm going to try to adopt that response.

Zamboni

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4566 on: February 09, 2023, 10:26:26 AM »
It's fine if you don't care about this, and it's BS, but it's true:
You will be labelled as more problematic and unprofessional if you do that fake laugh followed by "no", whereas a man might completely get away with it with the other person never holding it against him.

Women are expected to be relentlessly pleasant, I'm afraid. But, that makes our FU money stories have more potential for being epic, imho.

That's why I love movies like The Dressmaker and a new one called Emily the Criminal.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 05:44:22 PM by Zamboni »

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8822
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4567 on: February 09, 2023, 12:30:21 PM »
It's fine if you don't care about this, and it's BS, but it's true:
You will be labelled as more problematic and unprofessional if you do that fake laught followed by "no", whereas a man might completely get away with it with the other person never holding it against him.
Sadly true.  A man can say something with no consequences which when said by a woman would be seen as unprofessional.  Just as a man can make a one-off mistake and move on but a woman making the same mistake exposes a permanent character flaw which is never forgotten. 

(Also true for other minorities.  It's a big part of why, after decades of equalities legislation and education, it's still mainly white heterosexual men at the top of organisations.)

jeninco

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3995
  • Location: .... duh?
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4568 on: February 09, 2023, 01:22:37 PM »
It's fine if you don't care about this, and it's BS, but it's true:
You will be labelled as more problematic and unprofessional if you do that fake laught followed by "no", whereas a man might completely get away with it with the other person never holding it against him.
Sadly true.  A man can say something with no consequences which when said by a woman would be seen as unprofessional.  Just as a man can make a one-off mistake and move on but a woman making the same mistake exposes a permanent character flaw which is never forgotten. 

(Also true for other minorities.  It's a big part of why, after decades of equalities legislation and education, it's still mainly white heterosexual men at the top of organisations.)

Fair point. The version that would be authentic to me would be (kind smile) "I'm afraid not/ I'm afraid I can't sign that". But I'd like to channel the guys' "not taking it personally" part -- this isn't about my personal relationship, it's about their cruddy contracts.

jennifers

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 94
  • Location: Madison, wi
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4569 on: February 10, 2023, 08:34:42 AM »
My story is kinda lame but I'm proud:
I was at my software company job for 12 years as a QA Manager/ software tester. Two months ago they announced layoffs including 2 people who directly reported to me and my manager who was an amazing engineer and manager. Many of those laid off had worked at the company for almost 20 years and were exceptional workers who had a ton of knowledge about a very complex product. I've been through a few rounds of layoffs before but this was nothing like the other times. The engineering department was decimated. The same day they announced the layoffs I resigned. I also negotiated a severance package for myself by agreeing to stay a few more weeks (sort of lame but it's a lot of money.) 
(More background: The software company decided to focus their money and energy on two completely new products one of which is a school in the Bahamas. Months after opening, the school still has zero students. I also think this is some kind of money embezzling scheme to exfiltrate money to the Bahamas.)

PS. Anyone hiring in tech feel free to DM me. I actually love working and have skills in many areas including security, networking, sysadmin, cloud, and QA. I'm not desperate to get a job anytime soon but would start working now given the right opportunity. 

Zamboni

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4570 on: February 10, 2023, 08:45:49 AM »
^I think your story is totally epic!

It seems like the decision makers in layoffs don't worry about any "collateral quitting." They probably should, because leaving a few people to hold the bag working double time when layoffs blast a big hole in the team has driven me to quit. But then I guess not enough people have FU money.

And, yes, the whole "Bahamas school" thing sounds totally shady. Bingo on that one. Why do schools so often get set up as fraud schemes?

ATtiny85

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 946
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4571 on: February 10, 2023, 08:52:36 AM »
I’ve also thought that the collateral quitting (awesome term) is something the bean counters hope for. The more the merrier.

saguaro

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 232
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4572 on: February 10, 2023, 11:04:23 AM »
It seems like the decision makers in layoffs don't worry about any "collateral quitting." They probably should, because leaving a few people to hold the bag working double time when layoffs blast a big hole in the team has driven me to quit. But then I guess not enough people have FU money.

My leaving the Big Company was in part collateral quitting because there were so many rounds of layoffs in the preceeding years.  A lot of people shouldered extra workloads but very few quit in response.  But the ones who did....oh boy did people notice when it happened.   When I finally quit myself, I was told that people were jealous that I could just leave.   I will admit I enjoyed that.   

Turtle

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Pencil Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 591
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4573 on: February 10, 2023, 11:42:21 AM »
My biggest FU money work story was in some ways more subtle than Epic.  As far as I know, no one in my management chain knew I was behind it.

All perfectly legal, so no worries about sharing.  However, it maybe belongs in the FU Money for Good thread.

AlanStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3175
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4574 on: February 10, 2023, 12:02:52 PM »
My biggest FU money work story was in some ways more subtle than Epic.  As far as I know, no one in my management chain knew I was behind it.

All perfectly legal, so no worries about sharing.  However, it maybe belongs in the FU Money for Good thread.

You are not allowed to tease like that, also I hearby grant permission to double post a good story  :-)

iluvzbeach

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4575 on: February 10, 2023, 01:29:09 PM »
My biggest FU money work story was in some ways more subtle than Epic.  As far as I know, no one in my management chain knew I was behind it.

All perfectly legal, so no worries about sharing.  However, it maybe belongs in the FU Money for Good thread.

You are not allowed to tease like that, also I hearby grant permission to double post a good story  :-)

Yes, you’ve now piqued our curiosity. Please give us the scoop.

ATtiny85

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 946
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4576 on: February 10, 2023, 01:53:54 PM »
The story is there, go to the other thread

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4577 on: February 10, 2023, 06:23:44 PM »
The story is there, go to the other thread
What other thread? Got a link?

oldladystache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 943
  • Age: 79
  • Location: coastal southern california
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4578 on: February 10, 2023, 07:35:08 PM »
I'm proud of her too, and I don't even know her. Or you, now that you mention it. Thanks for the story.

AMandM

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1673

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22318
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4580 on: February 10, 2023, 07:49:50 PM »
I'm proud of her too, and I don't even know her. Or you, now that you mention it. Thanks for the story.
What she said!

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10880
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4581 on: February 11, 2023, 12:04:48 PM »
I'm proud of her too, and I don't even know her. Or you, now that you mention it. Thanks for the story.
What she said!

That was truly epic!  That DickBoss can get fucked.

Zamboni

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4582 on: February 11, 2023, 12:42:58 PM »
"DickBoss" does have a ring to it. Good for your daughter!

I had such a boss who put not 1, not 2, but 3 new hires on PIP's in a row in our little group of ~8 people. We are highly trained professionals who work hard, so suffice it to say not a single person should have gone through that. She was super insecure and would hire a new person, then decide she didn't like them in short order, especially if they got noticed as competent by anyone outside her group. No matter how diplomatic they were, and no matter how competent or hard working they were, she'd put the new person on a PIP and fire them at the end of the PIP period. I'm not sure what she was trying to accomplish.

While I was still stuck with a dashed line reporting to her (I'm sure she would have fired me if she could have), the second guy with an active PIP responded with humor. He realized immediately his days were numbered as he'd only been there less than a year and he knew the person he replaced had gone out the "PIP then fire" way. We were at a team meeting and she instructed us to pick a "holiday movie" to watch together on the last day of work before Christmas. Without skipping a beat he replied "How about the movie Horrible Bosses?" To this day I don't know how the rest of us managed to refrain from busting out laughing, but there was a very long awkward silence following that.

Wherever he landed after she fired him, I hope he has a better boss now.

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22318
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4583 on: February 11, 2023, 12:59:35 PM »
"DickBoss" does have a ring to it. Good for your daughter!

I had such a boss who put not 1, not 2, but 3 new hires on PIP's in a row in our little group of ~8 people. We are highly trained professionals who work hard, so suffice it to say not a single person should have gone through that. She was super insecure and would hire a new person, then decide she didn't like them in short order, especially if they got noticed as competent by anyone outside her group. No matter how diplomatic they were, and no matter how competent or hard working they were, she'd put the new person on a PIP and fire them at the end of the PIP period. I'm not sure what she was trying to accomplish.

While I was still stuck with a dashed line reporting to her (I'm sure she would have fired me if she could have), the second guy with an active PIP responded with humor. He realized immediately his days were numbered as he'd only been there less than a year and he knew the person he replaced had gone out the "PIP then fire" way. We were at a team meeting and she instructed us to pick a "holiday movie" to watch together on the last day of work before Christmas. Without skipping a beat he replied "How about the movie Horrible Bosses?" To this day I don't know how the rest of us managed to refrain from busting out laughing, but there was a very long awkward silence following that.

Wherever he landed after she fired him, I hope he has a better boss now.
What does this mean? I'm ten years post-FIRE - would I be able to answer this if I was still working? Asking for a friend.

Zamboni

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4584 on: February 11, 2023, 01:30:53 PM »
On a corporate organizational chart showing "who reports to whom," a solid line connecting the names of two people indicates a direct reporting relationship (one person is the boss who write the performance review of the other.) A dashed line ---- or "dotted" line relationship means that you work with that person frequently, enough that you have some obligation to them or their group, but you don't "officially" report to that person even if they are above you in the pecking order. They are you "secondary" supervisor. They may or may not have any sway when your performance is evaluated. They probably can't fire you on the spot.

In an org chart, pretty much everyone has a solid line between them and someone else, but dashed/dotted lines are fairly uncommon. Often having a dashed line to someone means that there are two people who "want" to be your boss, or you do work that is integral to two groups. But, companies realize that it can be impractical and unfair to you to have "two bosses", and it creates logistics issues from an HR standpoint such as which group has your salary budgeted, so one person is your official boss (solid line to them), while the other person has some expectation that you do work as part of their group but you don't report to them (dashed line). This is sometimes the result of a weird compromise that happens when a person is moving from one group to another, and the "old boss" doesn't want to let the person go. So to get away, the person agrees to a "dashed line" relationship as a compromise as they "finish up" work the old boss wants them to do. Other times you really do work that can't be easily categorized into one group or the other, so the company decides you are in both and uses this to delineate who actually signs your performance review (the solid line person). Managers like to count their "dashed line" people as part of their headcount to make it sound like their group is bigger than it really is.

Dashed/dotted line relationships are generally something you should avoid, imho. Unless the two bosses are good collaborators and have high EQ, you may get pulled in two directions and end up with nobody happy with you.

In my case the dotted line was for about a 20-25% effort level for the horrible boss. It was part of the deal when I took the job: I was expected to do 7-10 hours per week of work in her group. As soon as I realized she had problematic ethics and threw people under the bus regularly, I started working on rubbing out that dotted line formally. A few years after I got away she was involunretired, a word I just made up for "quit, retire, or be fired."

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3681
  • Location: Germany
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4585 on: February 11, 2023, 01:57:50 PM »
And I thought the phrase was "Had been let retired".

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22318
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4586 on: February 11, 2023, 03:29:23 PM »
Wow, thanks for that explanation @Zamboni. It made me remember that i used to work in a situation like that. It was indeed difficult at times, though in my case, it was the solid line person who became the problem. I loved the company, but noped the fuck out of there once Direct Boss turned into a jerk (in retrospect, probably because of some huge family problems*). Dotted line boss-not-boss and I are now retired, but he still has his nose firmly affixed the grindstone. Within a year of my leaving, he was gone.** In a small twist, he went to the company I left when he hired me. It was not a step up for him.

*Yes indeedy, he was handed a lot of shit and I have compassion for his situation. However, I am cancer survivor and I only get one life. I would not eat his unwarranted shit sandwiches no matter how much personal stuff he was dealing with.

**Old B-N-B told me after she retired that the Big Bosses were not happy with the way he treated me specifically  and a couple others.

Goddammit, it's great to be FIRE!

Loren Ver

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Handlebar Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 1223
  • Location: Midwest USA
  • I Retired. Yah!
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4587 on: February 11, 2023, 05:04:10 PM »
when I was a contractor, my actual manager noped her way out when they finally pushed her too far (good on her!).  So the company in their wisdom gave me a manager (?) and four(!!!) indirect dash line bosses.  It was a mess. 

Then they started me training my replacement....Maybe they thought I wouldn't notice....

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22318
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4588 on: February 11, 2023, 05:49:51 PM »
when I was a contractor, my actual manager noped her way out when they finally pushed her too far (good on her!).  So the company in their wisdom gave me a manager (?) and four(!!!) indirect dash line bosses.  It was a mess. 

Then they started me training my replacement....Maybe they thought I wouldn't notice....
Obvs. You did, but what happened next?

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5603
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4589 on: February 13, 2023, 04:23:39 PM »
Here's a tiny one from today.  I don't think there's any danger of getting fired over it, but being in a sound position both in our finances and my skillset gave me some extra confidence. 

I work for a small company, owned by two partners.  Overall, it's been great.  It's not perfect, though.  Several years ago, one of the partners moved out of state.  Out-of-state-partner (OOSP) loves to be in the loop on everything.  So when he hears about something for the first time, for example a product design change or a change in our manufacturing procedure, he wants to know all of the details, the rationale, the impact, etc.  Were he here, he'd be aware of it all, but since he's 1500 miles away, his method of finding out is...to start peppering me with questions on Slack.  To be clear, he doesn't need this information.  He's just satisfying his curiosity.  Having an engineering background, he also feels the need to make all sorts of suggestions, never mind the fact that the engineering team has already brainstormed, researched, tested, settled on a solution, and implemented it.*  He's a little bit like a seagull manager at such times--we rarely interact until something piques his interest, at which point he pops up and wants to be involved.

The problem is that we have a lean engineering team.  When OOSP moved, we were supporting a single product, and developing one new one.  Now, we're supporting three product lines, and in the midst of developing seven (if my count is right), with an engineering team that is only slightly larger than before.  Simply put, I don't have a half hour or an hour to explain something just to scratch his itch.  FWIW, in-state partner agrees.

Up until now, I've been willing to disrupt my flow to answer him.  Not today:
OOSP: <quotes a line from my email>  Tell me more?
Me: I don't have time to explain it right now
OOSP: does it <more specific, detailed question>
Me: <no response>

I was *very* tempted to repeat my first response, but figured that would be a step too far in the unprofessional direction, so I chose to simply ignore the question.  OOSP can go chase another squirrel while he waits, and hopefully he'll forget.

* - and in the process, the engineers have already thought of his ideas, and know why they would or wouldn't work.

Zamboni

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4590 on: February 13, 2023, 07:37:53 PM »
Oooh, I hadn't heard the term "Seagull Manager" before! But I have certainly encountered a few of them!

The wikipage for that term also included this list of gems:
Mushroom management – Company with dysfunctional communication between managers and employees
Dunning–Kruger effect – Cognitive bias about one's own skill
Peter Principle – Management concept by Laurence J. Peter
Competence (human resources) – Ability of a person to do a job properly
Micromanagement – Excessive attention or control by a manager
Carrot and stick – Metaphor for the use of punishment and reward to induce a desired behavior
Kiss up kick down – Form of social malfunction

Didn't know that the Peter Principle was actually named after an academic! I thought it was called that because people get promoted until they literally "peter out" and become useless.

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22318
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4591 on: February 13, 2023, 07:53:37 PM »
Here's a tiny one from today.  I don't think there's any danger of getting fired over it, but being in a sound position both in our finances and my skillset gave me some extra confidence. 

I work for a small company, owned by two partners.  Overall, it's been great.  It's not perfect, though.  Several years ago, one of the partners moved out of state.  Out-of-state-partner (OOSP) loves to be in the loop on everything.  So when he hears about something for the first time, for example a product design change or a change in our manufacturing procedure, he wants to know all of the details, the rationale, the impact, etc.  Were he here, he'd be aware of it all, but since he's 1500 miles away, his method of finding out is...to start peppering me with questions on Slack.  To be clear, he doesn't need this information.  He's just satisfying his curiosity.  Having an engineering background, he also feels the need to make all sorts of suggestions, never mind the fact that the engineering team has already brainstormed, researched, tested, settled on a solution, and implemented it.*  He's a little bit like a seagull manager at such times--we rarely interact until something piques his interest, at which point he pops up and wants to be involved.

The problem is that we have a lean engineering team.  When OOSP moved, we were supporting a single product, and developing one new one.  Now, we're supporting three product lines, and in the midst of developing seven (if my count is right), with an engineering team that is only slightly larger than before.  Simply put, I don't have a half hour or an hour to explain something just to scratch his itch.  FWIW, in-state partner agrees.

Up until now, I've been willing to disrupt my flow to answer him.  Not today:
OOSP: <quotes a line from my email>  Tell me more?
Me: I don't have time to explain it right now
OOSP: does it <more specific, detailed question>
Me: <no response>

I was *very* tempted to repeat my first response, but figured that would be a step too far in the unprofessional direction, so I chose to simply ignore the question.  OOSP can go chase another squirrel while he waits, and hopefully he'll forget.

* - and in the process, the engineers have already thought of his ideas, and know why they would or wouldn't work.
My first impression reading this is he's trying to justify being so far away. He has to make it seem like he's on top of everything so it doesn't matter if he's not there day-to-day. Good for you for standing your ground.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 07:11:59 AM by Dicey »

dcheesi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4592 on: February 14, 2023, 05:36:21 AM »
One our project managers in the old office was at least a mini-seagull, especially meetings; we'd be rolling through a series of items, rattling off tasks and issues, and he'd just randomly seize on one and refuse to let go of it, until you'd spent half the meeting explaining every detail to him. It wasn't even the biggest or most relevant items, it was just whatever piqued his interest/concern.

Ultimately I recognized it as being born out of anxiety (not unlike my own); the item in question would hook his latent anxiety give him a jolt, and then he just had to run it to ground. Understanding that, I tended to deal better with his little tangents than a lot of folks, and certainly with more sympathy (though it was still annoying).

Trifle

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5902
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Outside, NC, US
    • In The Garden
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4593 on: February 14, 2023, 07:01:47 AM »
One our project managers in the old office was at least a mini-seagull, especially meetings; we'd be rolling through a series of items, rattling off tasks and issues, and he'd just randomly seize on one and refuse to let go of it, until you'd spent half the meeting explaining every detail to him. It wasn't even the biggest or most relevant items, it was just whatever piqued his interest/concern.

Ultimately I recognized it as being born out of anxiety (not unlike my own); the item in question would hook his latent anxiety give him a jolt, and then he just had to run it to ground. Understanding that, I tended to deal better with his little tangents than a lot of folks, and certainly with more sympathy (though it was still annoying).

I know a few people like this, and I've gotten more patient with this personality trait over the years.  Some people struggle to move on to a new train of thought until the prior one is finished to their satisfaction.  I guess the negative way to put it is a "one track mind," but it has a lot of positives as well.  The people in question are deep, persistent thinkers; if you've got a thorny problem, they're the ones to give it to. 

Loren Ver

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Handlebar Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 1223
  • Location: Midwest USA
  • I Retired. Yah!
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4594 on: February 14, 2023, 08:35:55 AM »
when I was a contractor, my actual manager noped her way out when they finally pushed her too far (good on her!).  So the company in their wisdom gave me a manager (?) and four(!!!) indirect dash line bosses.  It was a mess. 

Then they started me training my replacement....Maybe they thought I wouldn't notice....
Obvs. You did, but what happened next?

I got a full time role in a different department.  One with 50% more pay and actual benefits (401k, medical, other really good stuff).  Stayed with the company until I retired.  It wasn't perfect (good company- some really odd management), but good enough that I stuck it out for 12 years.  I also made some life long friends there.  We still get together and hang out,  travel,  cause mischief.  I have two of them on the trek for early retirement.

My replacement didn't do so well, they forced her to retire about two years later when they were cleaning house. 

My manager that Noped her way out is doing great.  Her DH retired early!  She never did full time again but started several companies that are passion projects of hers.  We get together on occasion and are still good friends.

Boll weevil

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 203
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4595 on: February 14, 2023, 09:56:17 AM »

Didn't know that the Peter Principle was actually named after an academic! I thought it was called that because people get promoted until they literally "peter out" and become useless.

I tend to think there are two Peter Principles.

The “good” one is that competent people get promoted until they end up in a position where they’re not competent

The “bad” one is where incompetent people get promoted to jobs where they’ll do the least amount of damage.

Laura33

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3479
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4596 on: February 14, 2023, 09:59:41 AM »
Oooh, I hadn't heard the term "Seagull Manager" before! But I have certainly encountered a few of them!

I had one (you can see my own story many pages back).  We called it swoop-and-poop, as she'd be off doing her own thing, until one day she'd swoop back in on me for some unknown reason and shit on everything I had done in the six weeks since she had last shit all over me.  As you can imagine, there was a lot of duck-and-cover going on in that office as people actively worked to avoid her notice.

MissNancyPryor

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • The Stewardess is Flying the Plane!
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4597 on: February 14, 2023, 11:59:58 AM »

Didn't know that the Peter Principle was actually named after an academic! I thought it was called that because people get promoted until they literally "peter out" and become useless.

I tend to think there are two Peter Principles.

The “good” one is that competent people get promoted until they end up in a position where they’re not competent

The “bad” one is where incompetent people get promoted to jobs where they’ll do the least amount of damage.

The "bad" version as you describe is the Dilbert Principle. 

markbike528CBX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1899
  • Location: the Everbrown part of the Evergreen State (WA)
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4598 on: February 14, 2023, 12:06:09 PM »
Oooh, I hadn't heard the term "Seagull Manager" before! But I have certainly encountered a few of them!

I had one (you can see my own story many pages back).  We called it swoop-and-poop, as she'd be off doing her own thing, until one day she'd swoop back in on me for some unknown reason and shit on everything I had done in the six weeks since she had last shit all over me.  As you can imagine, there was a lot of duck-and-cover going on in that office as people actively worked to avoid her notice.

Dilbert had “Bungee Bosses”.   Fortunately, they tend to be one time events.   
We had a high boss stop into our lab,  get spun up by our description of “unusual samples”, and then leave, never to be heard from again, or even mentioned again.  Well except as a funny story.

MissNancyPryor

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • The Stewardess is Flying the Plane!
Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #4599 on: February 14, 2023, 12:11:03 PM »
Oooh, I hadn't heard the term "Seagull Manager" before! But I have certainly encountered a few of them!

The wikipage for that term also included this list of gems:
Mushroom management – Company with dysfunctional communication between managers and employees
Dunning–Kruger effect – Cognitive bias about one's own skill
Peter Principle – Management concept by Laurence J. Peter
Competence (human resources) – Ability of a person to do a job properly
Micromanagement – Excessive attention or control by a manager
Carrot and stick – Metaphor for the use of punishment and reward to induce a desired behavior
Kiss up kick down – Form of social malfunction

Didn't know that the Peter Principle was actually named after an academic! I thought it was called that because people get promoted until they literally "peter out" and become useless.

Anyone else notice the evolution of "carrot and stick"? 

Originally this was the concept of having a carrot dangling from a long stick, attaching that stick to a donkey, and attaching that donkey to a mill.  The donkey stupidly keeps trying to reach the carrot that is just out of reach beyond its nose so it walks forward, moving the mill.  Never learning its lesson and never reaching the carrot reward, it does the needed work.  No beating with a stick is involved. 

I have most recently only heard it as a "here is a carrot for good work and I will beat you with the stick for bad work."  I guess since mills are mechanical and beasts of burden are uncommon in modern suburbia people have forgotten. 

The first analogy definitely works for modern cubicle life with the paltry reward just out of reach.  Maybe if we just try harder we might reach it. 

Don't be an ass and hang around for that, get FIRE'd.

Don't get me started on that chicken and egg thing.