Epic FU money stories

[LightTripper]

I'm a consultant and get billed out by the hour.  I do however get a bonus which pretty much reflects what I billed out, how much of it (and others' revenues) I brought in, and how much of others' time/revenues I managed. I think that's pretty standard for consulting, so the time sheet is really important!

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[Sibley]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

[Alternatepriorities]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

In my examples at least it was not "required" that I work more than 40 hours a week. The experience sticks with me because I grew up very blue collar and have never fully shifted away from the hourly rate mind set. To me working unpaid overtime meant my hourly rate was decreasing. I asked other salaried people about that and they all said "salaried means I'm paid to do this job and how many hours it takes doesn't matter". That answer bothered me because finishing the job in 30 hours wasn't allowed. I was able to flex my time all over the place at the first company so I'd have 6 hours one day and 9 two other days and no one cared. That was the company from the previous epic FU money story...

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the different ways people relate time and money explains much of difference in how we relate to money. It's a lot harder to spend wildly or be super generous when it feels like I've literally trades "X" hours of my life for the money I'm spending/giving.

[Sibley]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

In my examples at least it was not "required" that I work more than 40 hours a week. The experience sticks with me because I grew up very blue collar and have never fully shifted away from the hourly rate mind set. To me working unpaid overtime meant my hourly rate was decreasing. I asked other salaried people about that and they all said "salaried means I'm paid to do this job and how many hours it takes doesn't matter". That answer bothered me because finishing the job in 30 hours wasn't allowed. I was able to flex my time all over the place at the first company so I'd have 6 hours one day and 9 two other days and no one cared. That was the company from the previous epic FU money story...

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the different ways people relate time and money explains much of difference in how we relate to money. It's a lot harder to spend wildly or be super generous when it feels like I've literally trades "X" hours of my life for the money I'm spending/giving.

You're not wrong, but if you're classified as salary, and you work less than 40 hours, then it's generally illegal to dock your pay if someone works less. That's part of the justification for not requiring overtime pay for working more than 40 hours.

[markbike528CBX]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

In my examples at least it was not "required" that I work more than 40 hours a week. The experience sticks with me because I grew up very blue collar and have never fully shifted away from the hourly rate mind set. To me working unpaid overtime meant my hourly rate was decreasing. I asked other salaried people about that and they all said "salaried means I'm paid to do this job and how many hours it takes doesn't matter". That answer bothered me because finishing the job in 30 hours wasn't allowed. I was able to flex my time all over the place at the first company so I'd have 6 hours one day and 9 two other days and no one cared. That was the company from the previous epic FU money story...

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the different ways people relate time and money explains much of difference in how we relate to money. It's a lot harder to spend wildly or be super generous when it feels like I've literally trades "X" hours of my life for the money I'm spending/giving.

You're not wrong, but if you're classified as salary, and you work less than 40 hours, then it's generally illegal to dock your pay if someone works less. That's part of the justification for not requiring overtime pay for working more than 40 hours.

Yep, illegal to dock pay, but if you have a "butts in seats" sort of boss, you'll get short-shrifted on pay raises, promotions, and an extra dose of hassle.

At SemiBigCorp, we had to jump through lots of hoops if we wanted to get paid overtime when working at the home or other office.  Even out in the field, it had to be special circumstances (SemiBigCorp was in bankruptcy at the time though).

My understanding of US federal government is timesheets are _required_ for billing the government, but not related to salaried pay. 

[Alternatepriorities]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

In my examples at least it was not "required" that I work more than 40 hours a week. The experience sticks with me because I grew up very blue collar and have never fully shifted away from the hourly rate mind set. To me working unpaid overtime meant my hourly rate was decreasing. I asked other salaried people about that and they all said "salaried means I'm paid to do this job and how many hours it takes doesn't matter". That answer bothered me because finishing the job in 30 hours wasn't allowed. I was able to flex my time all over the place at the first company so I'd have 6 hours one day and 9 two other days and no one cared. That was the company from the previous epic FU money story...

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the different ways people relate time and money explains much of difference in how we relate to money. It's a lot harder to spend wildly or be super generous when it feels like I've literally trades "X" hours of my life for the money I'm spending/giving.

You're not wrong, but if you're classified as salary, and you work less than 40 hours, then it's generally illegal to dock your pay if someone works less. That's part of the justification for not requiring overtime pay for working more than 40 hours.

I'd be a lot more likely to contest the issue today. Another reason to have FU money... Or at least a polite "no thank you" money.

[slipslop]

Perhaps more in the “polite ‘no thank you’” than the “epic FU”, but still feeling pretty Epic right now.


Business Clients: We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly: This is pretty expensive. You could consider alternative A, which gets you 80% of what you need in about 20% of the time, or alternative B, which gets you 95% of what you need in 40% of the time.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly to my managers: Thats fine. Based on historical time and the best numbers and research we have, we can have this ready for you between August and November of 2021.
My managers: Yikes! They’ll never go for that. We will present that we can have it between March and April of 2021.
Yours truly: Based on history and everything that we know, that is unlikely to be true. Remember that there are alternatives that are realistic though less complete, in that timeline.
My managers to my director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
My managers and director to Business Client Director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
Business Client Director: We need it done by December 2020.
My managers to Business Client Director: We can revisit alternative A, which is feasible in that time frame, or alternative B, which can be done in just a few additional months.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way. By December 2020.
My Director: You will have it.
My Managers: Okay, we understand. You will have it.
My Managers to me: We will have to have it done by December 2020 in this way. Here is a plan that, if we execute perfectly an a way that we have never done before, we hope will get us done by December 2020.
Yours truly: With this plan, the delivery date calculates out to June of 2021? That’s an improvement, but…
My Managers: Well, you will work something out.

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

[okits]

Perhaps more in the “polite ‘no thank you’” than the “epic FU”, but still feeling pretty Epic right now.

Face-palm for everyone involved except you!  🤦🏻‍♀️  Good for you for consistently offering realistic timelines.

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

If there's any danger whatsoever that your current bosses would try to block an internal move, you'd do well to look externally, too.

[slipslop]

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

If there's any danger whatsoever that your current bosses would try to block an internal move, you'd do well to look externally, too.

I have applied to more external positions than internal. But, unlike the internal positions, I don't have to tell my bosses about the external positions until my departure is imminent.

[okits]

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

If there's any danger whatsoever that your current bosses would try to block an internal move, you'd do well to look externally, too.

I have applied to more external positions than internal. But, unlike the internal positions, I don't have to tell my bosses about the external positions until my departure is imminent.

Good job!  👍 I hope you land someplace good before current place squeezes you too hard for this unrealistic project.

[scottish]

I know you're planning on leaving but...

All these managers.    Do they actually help manage the project, or do they just give you objectives and tell you to figure it out?

If you can get them involved in running the project it may help with delivery.   Presumably their ass is on the line as well as yours.   

[BicycleB]

Perhaps more in the “polite ‘no thank you’” than the “epic FU”, but still feeling pretty Epic right now...

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

(claps) Well done, @slipslop!

[NorthernMonkey]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

Where I work, all the guys that report into me are salaried, and we keep time sheets. They are used to work out cost allocation of engineering time to projects (each hour of engineer time worked on a project gets billed $x to that project).

They arent used to keep track of how much work people are doing since theyre the most hopeless way of measuring productivity. Its easy to record 12 hours working in one day, but spend the whole day watching netflix, and equally to work your ass off for 4 hours and get loads done.

[engineerjourney]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

In my examples at least it was not "required" that I work more than 40 hours a week. The experience sticks with me because I grew up very blue collar and have never fully shifted away from the hourly rate mind set. To me working unpaid overtime meant my hourly rate was decreasing. I asked other salaried people about that and they all said "salaried means I'm paid to do this job and how many hours it takes doesn't matter". That answer bothered me because finishing the job in 30 hours wasn't allowed. I was able to flex my time all over the place at the first company so I'd have 6 hours one day and 9 two other days and no one cared. That was the company from the previous epic FU money story...

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the different ways people relate time and money explains much of difference in how we relate to money. It's a lot harder to spend wildly or be super generous when it feels like I've literally trades "X" hours of my life for the money I'm spending/giving.

You're not wrong, but if you're classified as salary, and you work less than 40 hours, then it's generally illegal to dock your pay if someone works less. That's part of the justification for not requiring overtime pay for working more than 40 hours.

They don't dock your pay, they just make you use your PTO or vacation or sick time if you go under 40 which is legal from my reading.  And being salary exempt (most white collar salary) means they don't have to pay you for overtime. 

[rockstache]

Actually...I don't think that's legal. ^^^ It might be stricter in my state (most things are), but generally if they treat you as an hourly employee, then they have to classify you as one. The guidance we were given by the AGs office is that salaried employees should always take their PTO in 4 or 8 hour increments. If they're being required to put in 1-2 hour vacation or sick time increments, then they're hourly employees and need to be classified that way. It's one of the things that falls in favor of the employee, not the employer, so to keep from running afoul of the law, they should not be topping off people's under 40 with vacation or sick. JMHO

[Sugaree]

Actually...I don't think that's legal. ^^^ It might be stricter in my state (most things are), but generally if they treat you as an hourly employee, then they have to classify you as one. The guidance we were given by the AGs office is that salaried employees should always take their PTO in 4 or 8 hour increments. If they're being required to put in 1-2 hour vacation or sick time increments, then they're hourly employees and need to be classified that way. It's one of the things that falls in favor of the employee, not the employer, so to keep from running afoul of the law, they should not be topping off people's under 40 with vacation or sick. JMHO

This has been something that I've been going through at work.  I've been (probably rightly) classified as exempt for the last 11 years.  The new HR specialist came in and audited my status and decided that I should be non-exempt.  I got a nice chunk of backpay for 300-400 hours of backpay over the last 2 years, but I'm not convinced that the next HR specialist won't reverse that and ask for it back. 

[dcheesi]

Actually...I don't think that's legal. ^^^ It might be stricter in my state (most things are), but generally if they treat you as an hourly employee, then they have to classify you as one. The guidance we were given by the AGs office is that salaried employees should always take their PTO in 4 or 8 hour increments. If they're being required to put in 1-2 hour vacation or sick time increments, then they're hourly employees and need to be classified that way. It's one of the things that falls in favor of the employee, not the employer, so to keep from running afoul of the law, they should not be topping off people's under 40 with vacation or sick. JMHO

This has been something that I've been going through at work.  I've been (probably rightly) classified as exempt for the last 11 years.  The new HR specialist came in and audited my status and decided that I should be non-exempt.  I got a nice chunk of backpay for 300-400 hours of backpay over the last 2 years, but I'm not convinced that the next HR specialist won't reverse that and ask for it back.

Same thing happened to a friend of mine; someone made a labor complaint, and next thing you know he and bunch of other people in professional positions were reclassified as hourly. There's a big difference between what companies get away with (most of the time), and what's actually legal. And sometimes it's a case by case thing.

[Plina]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

Thanks @Montecarlo!

I had my first real workday at the new job today. Looking good so far. :) I started it last week with a conference at a spa.

I visited my former job last Monday to return my computer etc. We had an akward 45 minutes coffee and cake farewell, were I told the happy news about my new workplace. My former boss concluded twice that she thought the job would fit me well and I got a outdoor plant, that weighs about 5 kilos as a farewell gift. Considering that it was a pain in the ass to get home when you don't use public transport I was pretty close to dumping it in the closest trash can but used the bike service to get it home. I will consider the 5 months pay that they paid as a nice farewell gift! My guess is that 1-2 of my colleagues will also be leaving within 1-2 years. I happened to arrive at the end of a meeting and one of my colleagues were clearly frustrated with the lack of progress and she saw the results of opposing the boss.

[mm1970]

Perhaps more in the “polite ‘no thank you’” than the “epic FU”, but still feeling pretty Epic right now.


Business Clients: We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly: This is pretty expensive. You could consider alternative A, which gets you 80% of what you need in about 20% of the time, or alternative B, which gets you 95% of what you need in 40% of the time.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly to my managers: Thats fine. Based on historical time and the best numbers and research we have, we can have this ready for you between August and November of 2021.
My managers: Yikes! They’ll never go for that. We will present that we can have it between March and April of 2021.
Yours truly: Based on history and everything that we know, that is unlikely to be true. Remember that there are alternatives that are realistic though less complete, in that timeline.
My managers to my director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
My managers and director to Business Client Director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
Business Client Director: We need it done by December 2020.
My managers to Business Client Director: We can revisit alternative A, which is feasible in that time frame, or alternative B, which can be done in just a few additional months.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way. By December 2020.
My Director: You will have it.
My Managers: Okay, we understand. You will have it.
My Managers to me: We will have to have it done by December 2020 in this way. Here is a plan that, if we execute perfectly an a way that we have never done before, we hope will get us done by December 2020.
Yours truly: With this plan, the delivery date calculates out to June of 2021? That’s an improvement, but…
My Managers: Well, you will work something out.

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

I don't know how I missed this.

This is my life.  Our company got into an agreement with another company with milestones for four projects built into the calendar for 2-3 years.

Not a single milestone is/was achievable based on how long it takes to actually build things.  Not a one.  OH, and 3 of the projects had the same damn due date, and are competing for all the same equipment.  Really.

I'm the program manager, who is always telling... everyone...here's the schedule but we won't meet it... lather, rinse, repeat for 4 projects for 3 years...

[Sugaree]

Actually...I don't think that's legal. ^^^ It might be stricter in my state (most things are), but generally if they treat you as an hourly employee, then they have to classify you as one. The guidance we were given by the AGs office is that salaried employees should always take their PTO in 4 or 8 hour increments. If they're being required to put in 1-2 hour vacation or sick time increments, then they're hourly employees and need to be classified that way. It's one of the things that falls in favor of the employee, not the employer, so to keep from running afoul of the law, they should not be topping off people's under 40 with vacation or sick. JMHO

This has been something that I've been going through at work.  I've been (probably rightly) classified as exempt for the last 11 years.  The new HR specialist came in and audited my status and decided that I should be non-exempt.  I got a nice chunk of backpay for 300-400 hours of backpay over the last 2 years, but I'm not convinced that the next HR specialist won't reverse that and ask for it back.

Same thing happened to a friend of mine; someone made a labor complaint, and next thing you know he and bunch of other people in professional positions were reclassified as hourly. There's a big difference between what companies get away with (most of the time), and what's actually legal. And sometimes it's a case by case thing.

I'll be honest and say that I'm pretty sure the original HR specialist had it right and I should have been exempt as a computer worker.  I fall into that really narrow definition of computer worker that existed when the FLSA was written.  My co-workers who are system admins and network admins have always been coded non-exempt because they didn't write code.   

[Alternatepriorities]

Perhaps more in the “polite ‘no thank you’” than the “epic FU”, but still feeling pretty Epic right now.


Business Clients: We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly: This is pretty expensive. You could consider alternative A, which gets you 80% of what you need in about 20% of the time, or alternative B, which gets you 95% of what you need in 40% of the time.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly to my managers: Thats fine. Based on historical time and the best numbers and research we have, we can have this ready for you between August and November of 2021.
My managers: Yikes! They’ll never go for that. We will present that we can have it between March and April of 2021.
Yours truly: Based on history and everything that we know, that is unlikely to be true. Remember that there are alternatives that are realistic though less complete, in that timeline.
My managers to my director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
My managers and director to Business Client Director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
Business Client Director: We need it done by December 2020.
My managers to Business Client Director: We can revisit alternative A, which is feasible in that time frame, or alternative B, which can be done in just a few additional months.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way. By December 2020.
My Director: You will have it.
My Managers: Okay, we understand. You will have it.
My Managers to me: We will have to have it done by December 2020 in this way. Here is a plan that, if we execute perfectly an a way that we have never done before, we hope will get us done by December 2020.
Yours truly: With this plan, the delivery date calculates out to June of 2021? That’s an improvement, but…
My Managers: Well, you will work something out.

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

I don't know how I missed this.

This is my life.  Our company got into an agreement with another company with milestones for four projects built into the calendar for 2-3 years.

Not a single milestone is/was achievable based on how long it takes to actually build things.  Not a one.  OH, and 3 of the projects had the same damn due date, and are competing for all the same equipment.  Really.

I'm the program manager, who is always telling... everyone...here's the schedule but we won't meet it... lather, rinse, repeat for 4 projects for 3 years...

It was trying to meet those impossible deadlines as the lead engineer that drove me towards FIRE before I found MMM and had a word for it. There is nothing like sitting in a meeting listening to the supper optimistic promises being made and knowing it would fall to me to make it happen if it were possible. Oddly enough after I left that job I had a conversation with the ridiculously optimistic VP as friends and found the endless optimism really encouraging... It feels very different when it isn't my job to engineer their dreams into reality.

[joleran]

It was trying to meet those impossible deadlines as the lead engineer that drove me towards FIRE before I found MMM and had a word for it. There is nothing like sitting in a meeting listening to the supper optimistic promises being made and knowing it would fall to me to make it happen if it were possible. Oddly enough after I left that job I had a conversation with the ridiculously optimistic VP as friends and found the endless optimism really encouraging... It feels very different when it isn't my job to engineer their dreams into reality.

It's only been in the last year that I've started to think of deadlines more as "promise rings" than marriage.  I don't know any actual stats but it seems like at least 80% of them are missed across a good few companies and their vendors in my experience.

[Alternatepriorities]

It was trying to meet those impossible deadlines as the lead engineer that drove me towards FIRE before I found MMM and had a word for it. There is nothing like sitting in a meeting listening to the supper optimistic promises being made and knowing it would fall to me to make it happen if it were possible. Oddly enough after I left that job I had a conversation with the ridiculously optimistic VP as friends and found the endless optimism really encouraging... It feels very different when it isn't my job to engineer their dreams into reality.

It's only been in the last year that I've started to think of deadlines more as "promise rings" than marriage.  I don't know any actual stats but it seems like at least 80% of them are missed across a good few companies and their vendors in my experience.

I wish I had learned that sooner.

Although the motivation to FIRE has worked out very well so maybe it was worth the stress...

[ScreamingHeadGuy]

Perhaps more in the “polite ‘no thank you’” than the “epic FU”, but still feeling pretty Epic right now.


Business Clients: We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly: This is pretty expensive. You could consider alternative A, which gets you 80% of what you need in about 20% of the time, or alternative B, which gets you 95% of what you need in 40% of the time.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly to my managers: Thats fine. Based on historical time and the best numbers and research we have, we can have this ready for you between August and November of 2021.
My managers: Yikes! They’ll never go for that. We will present that we can have it between March and April of 2021.
Yours truly: Based on history and everything that we know, that is unlikely to be true. Remember that there are alternatives that are realistic though less complete, in that timeline.
My managers to my director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
My managers and director to Business Client Director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
Business Client Director: We need it done by December 2020.
My managers to Business Client Director: We can revisit alternative A, which is feasible in that time frame, or alternative B, which can be done in just a few additional months.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way. By December 2020.
My Director: You will have it.
My Managers: Okay, we understand. You will have it.
My Managers to me: We will have to have it done by December 2020 in this way. Here is a plan that, if we execute perfectly an a way that we have never done before, we hope will get us done by December 2020.
Yours truly: With this plan, the delivery date calculates out to June of 2021? That’s an improvement, but…
My Managers: Well, you will work something out.

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

Like a boss.  I give you a slowclap!

[alcon835]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

Thanks @Montecarlo!

I had my first real workday at the new job today. Looking good so far. :) I started it last week with a conference at a spa.

I visited my former job last Monday to return my computer etc. We had an akward 45 minutes coffee and cake farewell, were I told the happy news about my new workplace. My former boss concluded twice that she thought the job would fit me well and I got a outdoor plant, that weighs about 5 kilos as a farewell gift. Considering that it was a pain in the ass to get home when you don't use public transport I was pretty close to dumping it in the closest trash can but used the bike service to get it home. I will consider the 5 months pay that they paid as a nice farewell gift! My guess is that 1-2 of my colleagues will also be leaving within 1-2 years. I happened to arrive at the end of a meeting and one of my colleagues were clearly frustrated with the lack of progress and she saw the results of opposing the boss.

It's good to see your happy ending!

[Dicey]

...and a happy beginning.

[jinga nation]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

In my examples at least it was not "required" that I work more than 40 hours a week. The experience sticks with me because I grew up very blue collar and have never fully shifted away from the hourly rate mind set. To me working unpaid overtime meant my hourly rate was decreasing. I asked other salaried people about that and they all said "salaried means I'm paid to do this job and how many hours it takes doesn't matter". That answer bothered me because finishing the job in 30 hours wasn't allowed. I was able to flex my time all over the place at the first company so I'd have 6 hours one day and 9 two other days and no one cared. That was the company from the previous epic FU money story...

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the different ways people relate time and money explains much of difference in how we relate to money. It's a lot harder to spend wildly or be super generous when it feels like I've literally trades "X" hours of my life for the money I'm spending/giving.

You're not wrong, but if you're classified as salary, and you work less than 40 hours, then it's generally illegal to dock your pay if someone works less. That's part of the justification for not requiring overtime pay for working more than 40 hours.

They don't dock your pay, they just make you use your PTO or vacation or sick time if you go under 40 which is legal from my reading.  And being salary exempt (most white collar salary) means they don't have to pay you for overtime.

Fellow defense contractor here. On my contracts since 2010, even though I'm salaried, every hour that I work over 40 (has to be pre-authorized by customer) gets me paid at the regular rate. If I work over 40 without pre-auth, I don't get paid and both my employer and customer frown. If I work under 40, have to make it up with PTO hours. If out of PTO, then lube up to get bent over by HR.

[jinga nation]

Perhaps more in the “polite ‘no thank you’” than the “epic FU”, but still feeling pretty Epic right now.


Business Clients: We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly: This is pretty expensive. You could consider alternative A, which gets you 80% of what you need in about 20% of the time, or alternative B, which gets you 95% of what you need in 40% of the time.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way.
Yours truly to my managers: Thats fine. Based on historical time and the best numbers and research we have, we can have this ready for you between August and November of 2021.
My managers: Yikes! They’ll never go for that. We will present that we can have it between March and April of 2021.
Yours truly: Based on history and everything that we know, that is unlikely to be true. Remember that there are alternatives that are realistic though less complete, in that timeline.
My managers to my director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
My managers and director to Business Client Director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
Business Client Director: We need it done by December 2020.
My managers to Business Client Director: We can revisit alternative A, which is feasible in that time frame, or alternative B, which can be done in just a few additional months.
Business Client Director: No. We need X, built in this way. By December 2020.
My Director: You will have it.
My Managers: Okay, we understand. You will have it.
My Managers to me: We will have to have it done by December 2020 in this way. Here is a plan that, if we execute perfectly an a way that we have never done before, we hope will get us done by December 2020.
Yours truly: With this plan, the delivery date calculates out to June of 2021? That’s an improvement, but…
My Managers: Well, you will work something out.

Yours truly, a day later: I have just applied for these other internal positions. I hope you will support my transfer.

I don't know how I missed this.

This is my life.  Our company got into an agreement with another company with milestones for four projects built into the calendar for 2-3 years.

Not a single milestone is/was achievable based on how long it takes to actually build things.  Not a one.  OH, and 3 of the projects had the same damn due date, and are competing for all the same equipment.  Really.

I'm the program manager, who is always telling... everyone...here's the schedule but we won't meet it... lather, rinse, repeat for 4 projects for 3 years...

It was trying to meet those impossible deadlines as the lead engineer that drove me towards FIRE before I found MMM and had a word for it. There is nothing like sitting in a meeting listening to the supper optimistic promises being made and knowing it would fall to me to make it happen if it were possible. Oddly enough after I left that job I had a conversation with the ridiculously optimistic VP as friends and found the endless optimism really encouraging... It feels very different when it isn't my job to engineer their dreams into reality.

@slipslop i'm living this right now on a current contract. luckily my internal PM and management thinks like me, and value my inputs and judgement.

My director knows I have FU money. He knows I have a good rental income that would cover food, housing, utilities, plus more. He knows our family income is more than what he makes. But he's also an engineer at heart and accepts logical inputs and lets me be picky about contracts and projects i wish to work on.

[Sand101]

My managers and director to Business Client Director: We can have it done between March and April of 2021.
Business Client Director: We need it done by December 2020.

Luckily I have reasonably risk averse bosses, but the above is my life.

[joleran]

Now that I am retired, I can share this.

I was fed up with my job and had a "check-in" call in an open office, but with a remote manager.  I put the call on conference where I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months, had no confidence in the ability of our products to make money, and they needed to tell me how that was going to happen.  They offered me a written retention bonus to stay on for another year.  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  After a meeting with executive management and general counsel to negotiate the agreement and to talk about the direction of the company, they accepted and I got what I asked for.

To this day I don't know why they didn't just kick me to the curb, but other than actually saying it, "FU money" indeed.  Absolute insanity and stupidity on my part and everyone else involved.

[Model96]

Now that I am retired, I can share this.

I was fed up with my job and had a "check-in" call in an open office, but with a remote manager.  I put the call on conference where I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months, had no confidence in the ability of our products to make money, and they needed to tell me how that was going to happen.  They offered me a written retention bonus to stay on for another year.  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  After a meeting with executive management and general counsel to negotiate the agreement and to talk about the direction of the company, they accepted and I got what I asked for.

To this day I don't know why they didn't just kick me to the curb, but other than actually saying it, "FU money" indeed.  Absolute insanity and stupidity on my part and everyone else involved.

Not insanity and stupidity on your part...unless you had no FU miney! I was advising my daughter just this morning to ask for a pay rise, when she complained the management at her job had lost the plot and people were leaving wholesale. She might as well try to get better pay before she finds a better employer!

[ysette9]

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

All the defense contractors I worked for pretended I had a salaried job but I was an hourly worker.   If I didn't account for 40 hours I didn't get my full salary.    Scummy but true.

Now, the timesheet had to be kept because the company billed by the hour, so they had to have the the documentation on the hours worked.   Same when I worked as a salaried consultant for private industry (where I actually was salaried).

Same here. And it’s important to note that billing more than 40 hours never meant getting paid more than my standard salary. At least until I became a self employed contractor and billed myself out hourly.

Yes!!   The worst of both worlds!

Are these companies subject to State labor laws? Because if so, that's illegal.

In my examples at least it was not "required" that I work more than 40 hours a week. The experience sticks with me because I grew up very blue collar and have never fully shifted away from the hourly rate mind set. To me working unpaid overtime meant my hourly rate was decreasing. I asked other salaried people about that and they all said "salaried means I'm paid to do this job and how many hours it takes doesn't matter". That answer bothered me because finishing the job in 30 hours wasn't allowed. I was able to flex my time all over the place at the first company so I'd have 6 hours one day and 9 two other days and no one cared. That was the company from the previous epic FU money story...

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that the different ways people relate time and money explains much of difference in how we relate to money. It's a lot harder to spend wildly or be super generous when it feels like I've literally trades "X" hours of my life for the money I'm spending/giving.

You're not wrong, but if you're classified as salary, and you work less than 40 hours, then it's generally illegal to dock your pay if someone works less. That's part of the justification for not requiring overtime pay for working more than 40 hours.

They don't dock your pay, they just make you use your PTO or vacation or sick time if you go under 40 which is legal from my reading.  And being salary exempt (most white collar salary) means they don't have to pay you for overtime.

Fellow defense contractor here. On my contracts since 2010, even though I'm salaried, every hour that I work over 40 (has to be pre-authorized by customer) gets me paid at the regular rate. If I work over 40 without pre-auth, I don't get paid and both my employer and customer frown. If I work under 40, have to make it up with PTO hours. If out of PTO, then lube up to get bent over by HR.

I spent most of my career at a defense contractor and then a year or so at a tech company at the end. It was amazingly feeling to no longer keep a time card. For the first time in my career I took lunch breaks and socialized with coworkers. It was an actual, enjoyable break rather than a constant watch the clock trade off thinking about how much later I would have to stay at the end of the day.

[dcheesi]

Now that I am retired, I can share this.

I was fed up with my job and had a "check-in" call in an open office, but with a remote manager.  I put the call on conference where I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months, had no confidence in the ability of our products to make money, and they needed to tell me how that was going to happen.  They offered me a written retention bonus to stay on for another year.  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  After a meeting with executive management and general counsel to negotiate the agreement and to talk about the direction of the company, they accepted and I got what I asked for.

To this day I don't know why they didn't just kick me to the curb, but other than actually saying it, "FU money" indeed.  Absolute insanity and stupidity on my part and everyone else involved.

This sounds a lot like a scene from Office Space!

[joleran]

This sounds a lot like a scene from Office Space!

There is so much power in doing crazy stuff that most people would never think of doing.  Maybe I'll get bitten someday, but every time I think I've just gone too far... I get accommodated.

[LennStar]

Take the time to truly THANK your boss for what he does for you and your team.   They deserve it.

Plus, you might have a ready-made job waiting for you wherever they end up. :)

I try to explain to younger folks that they are only one sociopath away from being sick to death of their job and burnt out their career, so get that FU money lined up asap.

Yeah, thank him. Such people get never praised enough.

I want to mention that sociopaths are 3 times more likely to encounter on big companie's top level than in the whole population. Afaik no one has done a study about middle levels of management, but I suspect the rate is even higher there.

If he is worth billions would not the cost of the conference/holiday equal what it cost for an ordinary person to invite their friends for a party or dinner if you compare incomes and costs?

But that isn't the measure of the potential to bribe. Even if a gift is insignificant to give, if it is significant for the recipient then it might be enough to influence a decision. Looking like a bribe, or close to a bribe, or possibly a bribe is a problem in itself.

Actually the worth is negligible on an emotional level, that's just the way our brains are wired as a "social animal". The mentioned flower is not a bribe because it is seen as just normal social behavior (and btw. that may be true for the rich giver in the fund case) like shaking hands.
However, if you would add something that is unusual, even if the cost is only 10€, the reciever will be influenced to reciproce.

I really enjoyed reading @Plina  ‘s story!

I saw the references to 40.0ers earlier in the thread.  Admittedly I’ve only worked for one company coming out of the military, but I don’t keep a time sheet at all.  How common is it for salaried employees to keep time sheets?

In Germany since this year it's mandatory if you risk (work longer hours) getting under minimum wage.

It's only been in the last year that I've started to think of deadlines more as "promise rings" than marriage.  I don't know any actual stats but it seems like at least 80% of them are missed across a good few companies and their vendors in my experience.

Back at professional school I learned that 90% if IT projects fail either in time or money, often both.
So I would not speak of promises, but of wishes ;)

[BlueHouse]

This sounds a lot like a scene from Office Space!

There is so much power in doing crazy stuff that most people would never think of doing.  Maybe I'll get bitten someday, but every time I think I've just gone too far... I get accommodated.

This is also the George Costanza working model.  Whatever you think is the right thing to do....do the opposite. 

[2sk22]

This is also the George Costanza working model.  Whatever you think is the right thing to do....do the opposite.

There is so much to learn from George Costanza in terms of work (or should I say slacking) strategies: I have used the "leave on a high note" approach several times myself very successfully!

[frugalnacho]

I'm always working on that penske file. 

[Asalted_Nut]

I'm always working on that penske file.

You are aware...

[johndoe]

I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months...  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  ... I got what I asked for.

I am not an HR professional, but none of this makes any sense to me haha.  So you did nothing for months?  I never understand how people can just do nothing.  You couldn't ask any bosses for a task?  Weird, and I really can't understand why you would ever admit this to someone in the company, much less the bosses.  But hey it worked so what do I know?!  I can't imagine a scenario where it makes sense to pay a slacker more rather than immediately fire them.

Maybe it's "the Bobs" from office space where you just need more motivation? Bizarre

[SwordGuy]

I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months...  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  ... I got what I asked for.

I am not an HR professional, but none of this makes any sense to me haha.  So you did nothing for months?  I never understand how people can just do nothing.  You couldn't ask any bosses for a task?  Weird, and I really can't understand why you would ever admit this to someone in the company, much less the bosses.  But hey it worked so what do I know?!  I can't imagine a scenario where it makes sense to pay a slacker more rather than immediately fire them.

Maybe it's "the Bobs" from office space where you just need more motivation? Bizarre

I had a sociopathic boss who refused to assign me any tasks at work.   I didn't realize he was a sociopath, I just thought he was feeling insecure because he was young and I had way more experience.   I was trying to repair the breach between us and he was working to get me fired.  (I finally figured that out when he made his move.)

Because I didn't have any assignments and I wanted to be useful, I started writing automation programs to automate common tasks that we programmers had to do on every project.    He used that as evidence against me??   In a meeting with him and his supervisor, he brought up that charge.   When I pointed out I was trying to be useful since he wouldn't assign me any work, the supervisor told me I should have gone to her to get work assignments instead.  WTF???   

I ended up quitting before they could fire me (for better working conditions, pay and vacation) in a different department down the hall. :)   But before I did I fired back.   I made it very clear to government management and corporate management what was going on.   Not to save my job, but to protect them from the harm he would cause if left unchecked.   It took about 8 months but that sociopath was escorted out of the building by security and never allowed back.   My former coworkers made a point of dropping by to share the news. :)

[LennStar]

I ended up quitting before they could fire me (for better working conditions, pay and vacation) in a different department down the hall. :)   But before I did I fired back.   I made it very clear to government management and corporate management what was going on.   Not to save my job, but to protect them from the harm he would cause if left unchecked.   It took about 8 months but that sociopath was escorted out of the building by security and never allowed back.   My former coworkers made a point of dropping by to share the news. :)

Good Riddance!

Unfortunately, for every psychopath they kick out, 3 others are still there.

[joleran]

I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months...  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  ... I got what I asked for.

I am not an HR professional, but none of this makes any sense to me haha.  So you did nothing for months?  I never understand how people can just do nothing.  You couldn't ask any bosses for a task?  Weird, and I really can't understand why you would ever admit this to someone in the company, much less the bosses.  But hey it worked so what do I know?!  I can't imagine a scenario where it makes sense to pay a slacker more rather than immediately fire them.

Maybe it's "the Bobs" from office space where you just need more motivation? Bizarre

It's actually happened multiple times in my career.  My second job I had a boss that decided how long tasks were going to take and told the stakeholders this timeline.  If I finished early and asked for more work, none would be forthcoming until the end of his estimate.

For this latest one though, I got into that dilbert situation where I didn't really have any daily responsibilities and was supposed to be doing vague architecture stuff.  The company was in extreme turmoil, churning through CEOs and upper management, and my boss had something like 40 direct reports and was remote besides.  I did work for a while, but basically the work was just ignored as priorities got wiped from the map repeatedly and daily 20 person design meetings were made to "align" people which just turned into a game of politics with a VP there.  So, I just slipped through the cracks and probably could have continued to do so for some time.

It is uniquely demotivating to feel your work doesn't matter and then proving it directly.  I should have moved on instead of negotiating, but I was able to leverage the bonus into a big raise at a new company as soon as the retention period expired.

[johndoe]

@joleran @SwordGuy interesting cases...I guess I've been lucky with my bosses!  I have to think if there was something massively wrong I wouldn't hesitate to escalate it to the next level.  To tie it to FU money, I'd think of it like "I'm going to make sure the upper level people know the truth" rather than not be able to contribute work.

[mm1970]

I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months...  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  ... I got what I asked for.

I am not an HR professional, but none of this makes any sense to me haha.  So you did nothing for months?  I never understand how people can just do nothing.  You couldn't ask any bosses for a task?  Weird, and I really can't understand why you would ever admit this to someone in the company, much less the bosses.  But hey it worked so what do I know?!  I can't imagine a scenario where it makes sense to pay a slacker more rather than immediately fire them.

Maybe it's "the Bobs" from office space where you just need more motivation? Bizarre

It's actually happened multiple times in my career.  My second job I had a boss that decided how long tasks were going to take and told the stakeholders this timeline.  If I finished early and asked for more work, none would be forthcoming until the end of his estimate.

For this latest one though, I got into that dilbert situation where I didn't really have any daily responsibilities and was supposed to be doing vague architecture stuff.  The company was in extreme turmoil, churning through CEOs and upper management, and my boss had something like 40 direct reports and was remote besides.  I did work for a while, but basically the work was just ignored as priorities got wiped from the map repeatedly and daily 20 person design meetings were made to "align" people which just turned into a game of politics with a VP there.  So, I just slipped through the cracks and probably could have continued to do so for some time.

It is uniquely demotivating to feel your work doesn't matter and then proving it directly.  I should have moved on instead of negotiating, but I was able to leverage the bonus into a big raise at a new company as soon as the retention period expired.

This is sort of the opposite of what happened to a friend of mine. She got laid off from a big government contractor, which is how we found her and hired her.

She got moved around a lot - reassigned to different bosses because her job description was vast and she didn't "fit" anywhere.  When widespread layoffs came, she was let go.  (This place is known for big hirings and firings, and also for people being territorial ... if you are the only person who knows how to do X, then you don't get laid off.)

Well, she did a lot of things.  One of her side jobs was that...every 3 months, all of the company computers have to change passwords.  So she would set a calendar and change the passwords in the group labs every 90 days, and then send out the info.

Well, what happened after she was gone and the 90 days were up?  All of the computers in the labs locked up because the passwords were not changed... That continued for a couple of years...all these things that she did...

Ha, she worked for us for 5 years, then we had a mass layoff.  She ended up BACK there, at a higher level position and higher pay...

[achvfi]

@joleran @SwordGuy interesting cases...I guess I've been lucky with my bosses!  I have to think if there was something massively wrong I wouldn't hesitate to escalate it to the next level.  To tie it to FU money, I'd think of it like "I'm going to make sure the upper level people know the truth" rather than not be able to contribute work.

It only takes one bad boss to suck the life out of you. I was 10 years into my career until I had a bad boss. Shit really hits the fan when you are out of luck.

[AerynLee]

I loudly told them I hadn't done any work for the last several months...  I asked for changes in the bonus offer phrasing and more money.  ... I got what I asked for.

I am not an HR professional, but none of this makes any sense to me haha.  So you did nothing for months?  I never understand how people can just do nothing.  You couldn't ask any bosses for a task?  Weird, and I really can't understand why you would ever admit this to someone in the company, much less the bosses.  But hey it worked so what do I know?!  I can't imagine a scenario where it makes sense to pay a slacker more rather than immediately fire them.

Maybe it's "the Bobs" from office space where you just need more motivation? Bizarre

I'm a very efficient worker. Not saying I'm an amazing worker, I just move through the computer efficiently and make processes for my regular work that let me get through them quicker than others would. I've had a few jobs where when I run out of things to do and ask for more tasks, they either don't have anything for me (for various reasons including being overstaffed or someone refusing to give up an ounce of knowledge) or they dredge up some obscure task that isn't actually needed or even wanted and my time ends up wasted anyway. When you add that onto being praised for being such a good employee that gets so much done, there's just not much incentive to ask for more. At my last job I got to where there were days where I did nothing but would have been promoted to the second highest level of my department if I'd stayed.

I'm actually about two years into my first job that I don't have a lot of extra time and it's been a weird adjustment to not reading the internet for hours a day on the clock

[rantk81]

There's an amazing spectrum of jobs and companies -- where you can be hair-on-fire-busy for 60+ hours a week.... Or you can be struggling to fill the time from 9-5 due to boredom.  I've experienced both.  Extremes at both ends suck, for their own reasons.

[zolotiyeruki]

There's also the unfortunate job that expects you to be there 60 hours per week, even if you have nothing to do. The best IMO is where you're meaningfully busy for 40 hiurs, and there's no expectation to spend more time than that at work

[ixtap]

There's an amazing spectrum of jobs and companies -- where you can be hair-on-fire-busy for 60+ hours a week.... Or you can be struggling to fill the time from 9-5 due to boredom.  I've experienced both.  Extremes at both ends suck, for their own reasons.

DH has both at his current job, depending on the cycle. Luckily, has has learned to."fill" the slow weeks with recreational activities.