Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 2274989 times)

ctuser1

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2900 on: February 11, 2020, 07:56:19 AM »
I've been down this road before, more than once.  I'm prepared for the whole company to fold at a moment's notice, and I don't keep anything personal on my work computer ever!  And yes, I'm looking for a change myself :-)

Your age shows as 39 (which isn't to far from mine). So you must have been through the 2008, just like all of us in our age group or older did. :-D...

I somehow survived 3 entire-LOB-closures and maybe 15-20 rounds of layoffs in the 2-3 years around that time. Battle scars...

It was scary. I hope to at least be lean-FI next time anything half as scary comes around!!

saguaro

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2901 on: February 11, 2020, 02:12:42 PM »
How megacorps work has some complicated and convoluted reasoning behind it that will only make sense if you start thinking at scale.

As an employee, however, you operate within that given environment, with little opportunity to change that. As an individual, I believe the most rational stance is to recognize that:
1. Megacorp has no loyalty to you, and you shouldn't have any to it either.
2. You, however, need to have a strong loyalty to the individuals you work with, i.e. your team. They are your future network. You want to be remembered as a good team member by your teammates.

#2 and #1 often conflict. When it does, I choose to let #2 take precedence.

When I worked at the Big Company, I realized several years in after they started their rounds of downsizing / rightsizing / spinoffs / reinventions of the wheel that for all their previous declarations of valuing their employees, that the people who actually believed and practiced this were gone (at the top at least) replaced by those who simply thought everyone was a cog that could fit every wheel which was crazy considering the various projects and business units they had.  That was when I switched my focus from No. 1 to No. 2.   But there were those employees, especially long-term ones, who could not believe that the previously "layoff-proof" Big Company had changed, that somehow it still deserved their fealty (#1)  And when some employees who remained got hired away by former coworkers/bosses who got canned and landed on their feet elsewhere, sometimes for a better job with better pay, they still were shocked that someone would leave (#1 conflicting with #2).

Even when I realized that the Big Company was going down like the Titantic with its days numbered, I knew that at the very least I had a good network for the future in place (#2).  That was my #2 "lifeboat" and it paved (or rather I rowed?) my way for the next job.
 

Plina

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2902 on: February 12, 2020, 10:56:52 AM »
How megacorps work has some complicated and convoluted reasoning behind it that will only make sense if you start thinking at scale.

As an employee, however, you operate within that given environment, with little opportunity to change that. As an individual, I believe the most rational stance is to recognize that:
1. Megacorp has no loyalty to you, and you shouldn't have any to it either.
2. You, however, need to have a strong loyalty to the individuals you work with, i.e. your team. They are your future network. You want to be remembered as a good team member by your teammates.

#2 and #1 often conflict. When it does, I choose to let #2 take precedence.

When I worked at the Big Company, I realized several years in after they started their rounds of downsizing / rightsizing / spinoffs / reinventions of the wheel that for all their previous declarations of valuing their employees, that the people who actually believed and practiced this were gone (at the top at least) replaced by those who simply thought everyone was a cog that could fit every wheel which was crazy considering the various projects and business units they had.  That was when I switched my focus from No. 1 to No. 2.   But there were those employees, especially long-term ones, who could not believe that the previously "layoff-proof" Big Company had changed, that somehow it still deserved their fealty (#1)  And when some employees who remained got hired away by former coworkers/bosses who got canned and landed on their feet elsewhere, sometimes for a better job with better pay, they still were shocked that someone would leave (#1 conflicting with #2).

Even when I realized that the Big Company was going down like the Titantic with its days numbered, I knew that at the very least I had a good network for the future in place (#2).  That was my #2 "lifeboat" and it paved (or rather I rowed?) my way for the next job.
 

Interestingly enough you also see no 1 among many young employees that have newly graduated. You often see them shouting out how fantastic it is working for company x because you have had a really interesting day for planning for world domination. After a couple of years you realise that you have the same bs every year without nothing changing or that you rather spend your weekend with your family instead of planning for world domination. It is not actually a reward to go on that trip rather it feels like a punishment or a must do.

 I worked previously for a megacorp and basically the only thing that matterad was how much money you pulled in. Oh, they talked about other values and how the employees were their most valuable asset bla bla. But their words did not match their actions.

I also give my loyalty to my coworkers and my boss if I think she/he deserves it. I have always had excellent backning from my coworkers when I have been looking for something new.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2903 on: February 12, 2020, 11:46:02 AM »
Interestingly enough you also see no 1 among many young employees that have newly graduated. You often see them shouting out how fantastic it is working for company x because you have had a really interesting day for planning for world domination. After a couple of years you realise that you have the same bs every year without nothing changing or that you rather spend your weekend with your family instead of planning for world domination. It is not actually a reward to go on that trip rather it feels like a punishment or a must do.

 I worked previously for a megacorp and basically the only thing that matterad was how much money you pulled in. Oh, they talked about other values and how the employees were their most valuable asset bla bla. But their words did not match their actions.

I also give my loyalty to my coworkers and my boss if I think she/he deserves it. I have always had excellent backning from my coworkers when I have been looking for something new.

That happens at small companies too in my experience. Though to be fair the guy running that company did come from a mega corp. It all fell apart when the money stopped flowing in, but at least it gave me an story to post here forty some pages ago...

...

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2904 on: February 12, 2020, 03:01:27 PM »
Interestingly enough you also see no 1 among many young employees that have newly graduated. You often see them shouting out how fantastic it is working for company x because you have had a really interesting day for planning for world domination. After a couple of years you realise that you have the same bs every year without nothing changing or that you rather spend your weekend with your family instead of planning for world domination. It is not actually a reward to go on that trip rather it feels like a punishment or a must do.

 I worked previously for a megacorp and basically the only thing that matterad was how much money you pulled in. Oh, they talked about other values and how the employees were their most valuable asset bla bla. But their words did not match their actions.

I also give my loyalty to my coworkers and my boss if I think she/he deserves it. I have always had excellent backning from my coworkers when I have been looking for something new.

That happens at small companies too in my experience. Though to be fair the guy running that company did come from a mega corp. It all fell apart when the money stopped flowing in, but at least it gave me an story to post here forty some pages ago...

...

Small companies are bad. The small, husband and wife run companies are the absolute worst. No matter how smart each are as individuals, once they're egging each other on it rapidly becomes dumb and dumber. NEVER again will I work for a husband and wife team.

PhrugalPhan

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2905 on: February 12, 2020, 07:37:13 PM »
Small companies are bad. The small, husband and wife run companies are the absolute worst. No matter how smart each are as individuals, once they're egging each other on it rapidly becomes dumb and dumber. NEVER again will I work for a husband and wife team.
That was my experience too.  Can't say I miss it that's for sure.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2906 on: February 12, 2020, 08:39:49 PM »
Small companies are bad. The small, husband and wife run companies are the absolute worst. No matter how smart each are as individuals, once they're egging each other on it rapidly becomes dumb and dumber. NEVER again will I work for a husband and wife team.
That was my experience too.  Can't say I miss it that's for sure.

Interesting. Possibly the best place Iíve ever worked was husband and wife small business. The pay was inline with the work (restaurant) and the environment was generally very positive. I actually had a mini FU money story the last summer I worked there. I thought Iíd make some extra cash by taking a second job at another restaurant (a megacorp for my small town). I told the boss at the first place I wouldnít be able to work the occasional overtime because of the new job. Started the new job and it was a total cluster... I quit after the first night because the place was so miserable and I didnít need a second income that badly... The next day I told the owner ďI can work in a kitchen that badly run after working here put me back on the occasional overtimeĒ and immediately got a raise!   

Siebrie

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2907 on: February 13, 2020, 02:47:08 AM »
A friend of mine did her Master's project in Applied Mathematics in a small company and came to a surprising conclusion. Company: printing fabrics on-demand; staff: husband (in charge of printing), wife (admin), husband's brother (representative, on the road all day). The company was not making the profit it could make and asked for help. The conclusion: the husband had to grow a spine! Everytime the brother confirmed a sale, he called the wife, who then told the husband to stop everything and fulfill this specific order. This messed up the normal run of the small factory and cost them a lot of time in extra cleaning of the paint rollers, etc. :)

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2908 on: February 13, 2020, 05:03:26 AM »
A friend of mine did her Master's project in Applied Mathematics in a small company and came to a surprising conclusion. Company: printing fabrics on-demand; staff: husband (in charge of printing), wife (admin), husband's brother (representative, on the road all day). The company was not making the profit it could make and asked for help. The conclusion: the husband had to grow a spine! Everytime the brother confirmed a sale, he called the wife, who then told the husband to stop everything and fulfill this specific order. This messed up the normal run of the small factory and cost them a lot of time in extra cleaning of the paint rollers, etc. :)

That's pretty much how the husband/wife team operated in the place I worked. Everything they wanted was urgent and important, even if actually there were far more urgent and important client or outside agency related tasks to be done. Yeah, I'll stop getting together information requested by the auditor that has to be done TODAY just so I can spend an hour calling your patients to confirm they got a non-urgent text that the software says they did in fact get all while you toddle out for a midday run??? Or hey, sure I'll stop invoicing which generates actual money coming in so I can babysit your kid for the afternoon?!

They had no idea at all how to separate what they wanted in the moment, from the tasks that actually were important from a business standpoint. And they were plain unprofessional as well.

SeaG1ant

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2909 on: February 13, 2020, 06:25:20 AM »
 know its stupid to do it, but I don't want to change it. For one, I'm always afraid that I won't have enough withheld and I'll owe the government money. Second, I'm afraid to being tempted to blow that extra money instead of saving it or using it to pay off debt. I just don't trust myself. If I have a big chunk of money to put on a bill all at once it's more satisfying to me than just chipping away at it. I know I should facepunch myself for that but that's how I am.

dandarc

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2910 on: February 13, 2020, 06:26:46 AM »
Wrong thread @SeaG1ant ?

Plina

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2911 on: February 13, 2020, 11:26:03 AM »
Small companies are bad. The small, husband and wife run companies are the absolute worst. No matter how smart each are as individuals, once they're egging each other on it rapidly becomes dumb and dumber. NEVER again will I work for a husband and wife team.
That was my experience too.  Can't say I miss it that's for sure.

Interesting. Possibly the best place Iíve ever worked was husband and wife small business. The pay was inline with the work (restaurant) and the environment was generally very positive. I actually had a mini FU money story the last summer I worked there. I thought Iíd make some extra cash by taking a second job at another restaurant (a megacorp for my small town). I told the boss at the first place I wouldnít be able to work the occasional overtime because of the new job. Started the new job and it was a total cluster... I quit after the first night because the place was so miserable and I didnít need a second income that badly... The next day I told the owner ďI can work in a kitchen that badly run after working here put me back on the occasional overtimeĒ and immediately got a raise!   

I am coming to the conclusion that I donít like working for other people. I currently work for a small company. The biggest problem currently is that we are waiting for a decision to be made so we can start our work. The waiting is starting to drive me crazy as I donít really have so much to do. Combine that with the fact that I donít have anything in common with my colleagues, so the days feel really long. We are going to hire more people when we get the go so hopefully someone that I have something in common.

CptCool

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2912 on: February 13, 2020, 12:14:15 PM »
A friend of mine did her Master's project in Applied Mathematics in a small company and came to a surprising conclusion. Company: printing fabrics on-demand; staff: husband (in charge of printing), wife (admin), husband's brother (representative, on the road all day). The company was not making the profit it could make and asked for help. The conclusion: the husband had to grow a spine! Everytime the brother confirmed a sale, he called the wife, who then told the husband to stop everything and fulfill this specific order. This messed up the normal run of the small factory and cost them a lot of time in extra cleaning of the paint rollers, etc. :)

That's pretty much how the husband/wife team every company I've ever worked at operated in the place I worked. Everything they wanted was urgent and important, even if actually there were far more urgent and important client or outside agency related tasks to be done. Yeah, I'll stop getting together information requested by the auditor that has to be done TODAY just so I can spend an hour calling your patients to confirm they got a non-urgent text that the software says they did in fact get all while you toddle out for a midday run??? Or hey, sure I'll stop invoicing which generates actual money coming in so I can babysit your kid for the afternoon?!

They had no idea at all how to separate what they wanted in the moment, from the tasks that actually were important from a business standpoint. And they were plain unprofessional as well.

Updated your quote where bold = me. I feel like every company i've ever worked at has failed miserably with prioritization. Everything is always high priority, so nothing ever gets done.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2913 on: February 13, 2020, 01:13:58 PM »

That's pretty much how the husband/wife team every company I've ever worked at operated in the place I worked. Everything they wanted was urgent and important, even if actually there were far more urgent and important client or outside agency related tasks to be done. Yeah, I'll stop getting together information requested by the auditor that has to be done TODAY just so I can spend an hour calling your patients to confirm they got a non-urgent text that the software says they did in fact get all while you toddle out for a midday run??? Or hey, sure I'll stop invoicing which generates actual money coming in so I can babysit your kid for the afternoon?!

They had no idea at all how to separate what they wanted in the moment, from the tasks that actually were important from a business standpoint. And they were plain unprofessional as well.

Updated your quote where bold = me. I feel like every company i've ever worked at has failed miserably with prioritization. Everything is always high priority, so nothing ever gets done.
Heh, I work for a small company, and I push back on this at least a few times each week: "Is this a higher priority than <insert current top priority project>?"  I've seen it cause the requester to pause for a few moments to consider it.  It's lovely, because it 1) keeps the blame away from me if something gets delayed due to shifting priorities, and 2) it's a helpful reminder to The Powers That Be that their resources are finite.

turketron

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2914 on: February 13, 2020, 01:37:19 PM »
Heh, I work for a small company, and I push back on this at least a few times each week: "Is this a higher priority than <insert current top priority project>?"  I've seen it cause the requester to pause for a few moments to consider it.  It's lovely, because it 1) keeps the blame away from me if something gets delayed due to shifting priorities, and 2) it's a helpful reminder to The Powers That Be that their resources are finite.

There are some good scripts on https://www.askamanager.org/ about how to bring this up, some variation of your script, or something like "I can do that today, but it means that ____ won't get done until Friday..." with the additional recommendation of doing this via email/slack/etc when possible so there's a record of the conversation.

dignam

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2915 on: February 13, 2020, 02:04:43 PM »
Heh, I work for a small company, and I push back on this at least a few times each week: "Is this a higher priority than <insert current top priority project>?"  I've seen it cause the requester to pause for a few moments to consider it.  It's lovely, because it 1) keeps the blame away from me if something gets delayed due to shifting priorities, and 2) it's a helpful reminder to The Powers That Be that their resources are finite.

There are some good scripts on https://www.askamanager.org/ about how to bring this up, some variation of your script, or something like "I can do that today, but it means that ____ won't get done until Friday..." with the additional recommendation of doing this via email/slack/etc when possible so there's a record of the conversation.

Guess I should count myself lucky.  We are very good at this at my company.  If a product owner asks my team to tackle something, one of my first questions is "where does this fall in priority?" Followed by "this and that will need to be pushed to the side then".  A lot of the time I don't even have to ask.  It's all about setting expectations.

BlueHouse

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2916 on: February 14, 2020, 07:43:45 AM »
A friend of mine did her Master's project in Applied Mathematics in a small company and came to a surprising conclusion. Company: printing fabrics on-demand; staff: husband (in charge of printing), wife (admin), husband's brother (representative, on the road all day). The company was not making the profit it could make and asked for help. The conclusion: the husband had to grow a spine! Everytime the brother confirmed a sale, he called the wife, who then told the husband to stop everything and fulfill this specific order. This messed up the normal run of the small factory and cost them a lot of time in extra cleaning of the paint rollers, etc. :)

That's pretty much how the husband/wife team every company I've ever worked at operated in the place I worked. Everything they wanted was urgent and important, even if actually there were far more urgent and important client or outside agency related tasks to be done. Yeah, I'll stop getting together information requested by the auditor that has to be done TODAY just so I can spend an hour calling your patients to confirm they got a non-urgent text that the software says they did in fact get all while you toddle out for a midday run??? Or hey, sure I'll stop invoicing which generates actual money coming in so I can babysit your kid for the afternoon?!

They had no idea at all how to separate what they wanted in the moment, from the tasks that actually were important from a business standpoint. And they were plain unprofessional as well.

Updated your quote where bold = me. I feel like every company i've ever worked at has failed miserably with prioritization. Everything is always high priority, so nothing ever gets done.

heheh.  I worked for a small company where one of the partners (the business minded guy) worked 8-5 and the other partner (the creative genius programmer) worked 11ish to 2am-ish.  In the mornings, partner #1 would give me one set of priorities and in the afternoon, partner #2 gave me a different set. It was not easy, but it was fun because I loved that company and what we were building.  I tried to avoid partner #1 in the mornings because I didn't want to follow his instructions. 

Warlord1986

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2917 on: February 15, 2020, 02:11:44 PM »
Copied from my journal.


So our Executive Director came in my office and told me she wanted to take on a 'leadership role' now that my supervisor was leaving. I said I would need the title of interim director and the according pay. She immediately shot that down. When I said that wouldn't work for me she started threatening me with double speak and dog whistles. I decided life is too short to put up with that crap and sent HR my two weeks notice.

I have some money saved and a part time job. But if anyone wants to buy one of my short stories, here's a link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CKSBZT1

Just an update. I spent the last few months bumming around, working as a waitress (and filling a $15,000 wholesale order for that business), reading a lot of books about Venice, Istanbul, and the Medicis, getting certified as a Stand Up Paddleboarding instructor, dating a bit, and volunteering. The library where I volunteer hired me. I start on Monday. The position is part time, but it's enough to pay my bills, and I'll be back in the state retirement system (which I didn't know when I applied!). My funds are at roughly the same place they were when I left, and I'm saving for a trip to Malta. This sabbatical turned out really well for me! :3

Another update: the library has been very good to me. I started a non-fiction book club, planned a speaker series where religious leaders come in and talk about their religions and answer questions, and read lots of books. <3 I recently accepted an offer to go full time. Starting March 1, I will have medical benefits and a full time salary again. :) I'm not making huge money, but with a housemate and a side gig here and there, I can still save plenty. Cross your fingers for Malta!

Regarding my former supervisor, and the Executive Director: the supervisor is busy at her new job throwing tantrums and making everyone hate her. It's a small community and more than one person has independently mentioned her, not knowing I used to work with her. I haven't heard as much about the ED, which is somewhat surprising. I am aware that her last fundraiser did not do very well.

DaMa

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2918 on: February 15, 2020, 05:39:43 PM »
Way to go @Warlord1986!  Congratulations!

Zaga

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2919 on: February 15, 2020, 05:41:42 PM »
Sounds great!  It's hard to tell where life will take you when you're busy living it.

Just Joe

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2920 on: February 17, 2020, 10:14:20 AM »
A friend of mine did her Master's project in Applied Mathematics in a small company and came to a surprising conclusion. Company: printing fabrics on-demand; staff: husband (in charge of printing), wife (admin), husband's brother (representative, on the road all day). The company was not making the profit it could make and asked for help. The conclusion: the husband had to grow a spine! Everytime the brother confirmed a sale, he called the wife, who then told the husband to stop everything and fulfill this specific order. This messed up the normal run of the small factory and cost them a lot of time in extra cleaning of the paint rollers, etc. :)

That's pretty much how the husband/wife team every company I've ever worked at operated in the place I worked. Everything they wanted was urgent and important, even if actually there were far more urgent and important client or outside agency related tasks to be done. Yeah, I'll stop getting together information requested by the auditor that has to be done TODAY just so I can spend an hour calling your patients to confirm they got a non-urgent text that the software says they did in fact get all while you toddle out for a midday run??? Or hey, sure I'll stop invoicing which generates actual money coming in so I can babysit your kid for the afternoon?!

They had no idea at all how to separate what they wanted in the moment, from the tasks that actually were important from a business standpoint. And they were plain unprofessional as well.

Updated your quote where bold = me. I feel like every company i've ever worked at has failed miserably with prioritization. Everything is always high priority, so nothing ever gets done.

heheh.  I worked for a small company where one of the partners (the business minded guy) worked 8-5 and the other partner (the creative genius programmer) worked 11ish to 2am-ish.  In the mornings, partner #1 would give me one set of priorities and in the afternoon, partner #2 gave me a different set. It was not easy, but it was fun because I loved that company and what we were building.  I tried to avoid partner #1 in the mornings because I didn't want to follow his instructions.

I worked for a company like that. Partner#1 was a level headed guy. Partner#2 had issues possibly including substance abuse issues. Definitely had in the past. Conflicting orders, hard to get anything done, etc.

Made do for a while but they had me paired with a coworker who was a safety concern. Coworker set the work pace and if he didn't want to eat lunch (he was dieting) then I didn't get to eat lunch.

After several safety situations I quit and went back to a previous employer who was happy to have me back.

dd564

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2921 on: February 18, 2020, 01:32:33 PM »

Holy crap, I can't believe he told you that straight up. That's practically telling your employee to leave for greener pastures.

In some cases, an excellent manager will tell you exactly that. (They'll tell you because the value your relationship more than their job).

In a company I am familiar with, once you are hired, you only get a percentage increase.  I felt I was underpaid and it was confirmed when I was promoted and people who were doing less than me were in the same position I head before changing, were paid more than me.

The reasons companies don't pay these SUPERSTAR people better is:

1. The employee may never find out.
2. The employee may find out but never complain.
3. The employee is too lazy to find a better option (or they keep employee too busy to have time to interview).
4. If they are motivated by money first, they aren't company people and will probably leave when times get stressful anyway. Better to have employees you can depend on and the undependable will weed themselves out through salary demands. (Or they know some employees will just outgrow them financially. Budgets for that type of company can't handle large salaries due to small margins or bad management).
5. At some point an employee can only work at 100 MPH for so long. Paying them a big raise might curb that work ethic in because of the feeling they "finally made it" from an earnings standpoint.
and finally...
#6.  EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE.
The might not hire the exact same as you, but they might hire two other people to do what you did.  One will be bad, the other will be good.  In 6-12 months, one will leave through firing or on their own, the other will work to be close to the level you were.  The rest of your team that remains will actually have to pick up a bit of the load SUPERSTAR employee was carrying, but things will normalize in 3 months.




Threshkin

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2922 on: February 18, 2020, 11:21:44 PM »

Holy crap, I can't believe he told you that straight up. That's practically telling your employee to leave for greener pastures.

In some cases, an excellent manager will tell you exactly that. (They'll tell you because the value your relationship more than their job).

In a company I am familiar with, once you are hired, you only get a percentage increase.  I felt I was underpaid and it was confirmed when I was promoted and people who were doing less than me were in the same position I head before changing, were paid more than me.

The reasons companies don't pay these SUPERSTAR people better is:

1. The employee may never find out.
2. The employee may find out but never complain. 

Early in my professional career I found out I was underpaid and complained.  Actually had the guts to suggest that I may need to talk to the Labor Relations Board regarding equal pay for equal work.  Netted me a 40% raise.

3. The employee is too lazy to find a better option (or they keep employee too busy to have time to interview). 

About a year later I got a better offer from an manager and turned in my notice.  Told them the new salary in my resignation letter.  Two days before my last day they realized I might consider a counter offer.  Got me a second 40% raise.  (Pissed off the other company but they, a startup, went under within a year.)

4. If they are motivated by money first, they aren't company people and will probably leave when times get stressful anyway. Better to have employees you can depend on and the undependable will weed themselves out through salary demands. (Or they know some employees will just outgrow them financially. Budgets for that type of company can't handle large salaries due to small margins or bad management).

I left for good about 18 months later because I could read the writing on the wall.  The company had lost momentum in the market and was about to crash.  Out of 17 people in my marketing department, I was the first to leave but within 6 months there were only 2 people left.  Everyone else had quit, from VP to Administrator. I just beat the stress.

5. At some point an employee can only work at 100 MPH for so long. Paying them a big raise might curb that work ethic in because of the feeling they "finally made it" from an earnings standpoint.
and finally...
#6.  EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE.
The might not hire the exact same as you, but they might hire two other people to do what you did.  One will be bad, the other will be good.  In 6-12 months, one will leave through firing or on their own, the other will work to be close to the level you were.  The rest of your team that remains will actually have to pick up a bit of the load SUPERSTAR employee was carrying, but things will normalize in 3 months.

The funny thing was that I didn't have FI or even much FU money at the time.  I just had the invincibility of youth.....and no installment debt!

dandarc

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alcon835

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2924 on: February 20, 2020, 06:35:20 AM »
I started doing research: talking with folks I knew in the industry, reading online forums, and looking at job posting to put together a number right in the middle of what the industry was paying for my promoted role. I took that information to my boss at my next one-on-one and proceeded to walk him through what I was looking for in salary when they finally promoted me and why I thought those numbers were fair.

He was clearly stunned by the conversation and didn't even take a second to process what I'd said. Instead he told me, "You started at this company underpaid and you will always be underpaid as long as you work here. The promotion is not going to be negotiable and it's more like a 5% increase." I pointed out that the role should be paid at what the role is worth and not be based on my current salary. He shrugged his shoulders and basically said, "That's the way that it is and I'm not going to fight to get you any more."

That was the moment I knew it was time to leave. It was suddenly clear that they knew they were taking advantage of me. They knew I was ignorant of what the industry was paying and used that leverage to severely underpay me while hiring other folks at 40-60% more than me. And even when I proved to be one of the strongest assets on their team, the only response was a shrug of the shoulders and a "that's the way that it is."

How megacorps work has some complicated and convoluted reasoning behind it that will only make sense if you start thinking at scale.

As an employee, however, you operate within that given environment, with little opportunity to change that. As an individual, I believe the most rational stance is to recognize that:
1. Megacorp has no loyalty to you, and you shouldn't have any to it either.
2. You, however, need to have a strong loyalty to the individuals you work with, i.e. your team. They are your future network. You want to be remembered as a good team member by your teammates.

#2 and #1 often conflict. When it does, I choose to let #2 take precedence.

So, in your story, the fact that you were "surprised" that you were underpaid indicates you did not keep updated how much you are worth in the market. That indicates a violation of rule #1 that I follow.

Then, when you found out about that from the grapevine, your assume your manager, or his manager, has the ability to remedy that situation. 99% of the time that is not the case. The only time your manager(s) can do anything is if/when you show up with a 2-week-notice with another offer in hand. Even that gambit is risky. If your manager decides to fight for better salary - he has to burn a significant amount of political capital.

The most rational choice in this case is to take another offer, give your two week notice and and politely mention that you got a better opportunity while giving the notice, and make preparations to leave. If they do want to keep you, they might try to give a counter - but I am usually *very* uncomfortable taking those (I've been there, and declined it) for many reasons. THEN, some time later, a year or two, if your older job wants to bring you back with appropriate raises and stuff - you can move back. DW had this almost happen last year when her old employer gave her  an offer without any interview when they heard she was looking. This worked massively to her advantage since she could negotiate hardball (with extreme politeness) with the new job where she actually landed. She got a 50%+ raise this way from a single job hop.

I write this not with an intention to criticize you, but with the hope that more people can start acting rationally in these situations. Very few do. It is hard - as I can see when I try to advise DW to act opposite to what her instinctive reactions are in a given situation.

 
 

This was a few years ago now, and honestly, it was more the "nail in the coffin" than the catalyst for change. I went in telling them what I needed to make as part of my promotion to better meet with the market and knew going it that it would probably end up in my looking for work elsewhere. What surprised me was the phrase, "you came in underpaid and will always be underpaid as long as you work here." I honestly never thought I'd hear that from a manager and it's definitely the wrong thing to do for the employee and the team and the company.

As for point #2, I have maintained my relationships over there with the exception of two people, and at this point I'm very happy with the decisions I've made up until this point and the way it's played out.

alcon835

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2925 on: February 20, 2020, 06:38:01 AM »
He was clearly stunned by the conversation and didn't even take a second to process what I'd said. Instead he told me, "You started at this company underpaid and you will always be underpaid as long as you work here. The promotion is not going to be negotiable and it's more like a 5% increase." 

I have a friend who, when starting a new job, was told something like "We pay slightly below market wages, but we want better than average performers!"  He and I were both puzzled by that contradiction, but he took the job anyway (his division/location at previous employer was shutting down).  I think he has generally been happy at his new job over the last decade, and has been promoted, but he is also very easy going so wasn't likely to make any big waves about things like pay. 

In my own case, at a previous employer, I started somewhat underpaid but so were the other people at the company because it was a startup, not a software one but the old fashioned kind that made physical things and so took many years to grow.  Some years in, out of the blue one year I got a 15% raise because they finally were big enough and had the resources to do a market analysis and increase the pay of the people there who were underpaid.  I realize that is contradictory to the experiences most people in this thread have talked about, but there was a reason I stayed there for almost 2 decades, they were a good place to work for most of that.

This is such a fantastic point to make! There really are organizations out there that do what is right for the employee. Especially those folks who take risks with an organization should be remembered and supported. I'm so glad you brought this up!

alcon835

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2926 on: February 20, 2020, 06:48:39 AM »

Holy crap, I can't believe he told you that straight up. That's practically telling your employee to leave for greener pastures.

In some cases, an excellent manager will tell you exactly that. (They'll tell you because the value your relationship more than their job).

In a company I am familiar with, once you are hired, you only get a percentage increase.  I felt I was underpaid and it was confirmed when I was promoted and people who were doing less than me were in the same position I head before changing, were paid more than me.

The reasons companies don't pay these SUPERSTAR people better is:

1. The employee may never find out.
2. The employee may find out but never complain.
3. The employee is too lazy to find a better option (or they keep employee too busy to have time to interview).
4. If they are motivated by money first, they aren't company people and will probably leave when times get stressful anyway. Better to have employees you can depend on and the undependable will weed themselves out through salary demands. (Or they know some employees will just outgrow them financially. Budgets for that type of company can't handle large salaries due to small margins or bad management).
5. At some point an employee can only work at 100 MPH for so long. Paying them a big raise might curb that work ethic in because of the feeling they "finally made it" from an earnings standpoint.
and finally...
#6.  EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE.
The might not hire the exact same as you, but they might hire two other people to do what you did.  One will be bad, the other will be good.  In 6-12 months, one will leave through firing or on their own, the other will work to be close to the level you were.  The rest of your team that remains will actually have to pick up a bit of the load SUPERSTAR employee was carrying, but things will normalize in 3 months.

I see #6 from competent companies. There are some where the good people leave and are replaced with not good people. I've had more than one ex-managed come to me a year+ after leaving an organization and tell me, "Nothing has been done at X part of the company since you left..."

Which, honestly, is a massive failure of that organization. If a manager can't replace someone and keep moving the needle, what's the point of having that manager in that position? And yet, I've seen it time and time again, people get into manager roles and don't know how to hire/train/motivate/prioritize their team. After their superstar(s) leave, they're left with little progress.

Imma

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2927 on: February 20, 2020, 10:24:37 AM »
I'm in a difficult position at work, I may need FU money soon. My organisation is in a big transition (merger, acquisition, that type of stuff, I don't want to go into details) and our future will be decided in a couple of weeks. I've been here for 18 months out of a 2 year contract that's supposed to result in a permanent position when this contract ends.

I've been told "through the grapevine" but not officially, that I will be expected to work fulltime after graduation (this was never discussed previously and most women in my country don't work fulltime) and also that due to the company transition it's going to be unlikely that the specialist role is still something they can offer. My contract is parttime, they can't force me to switch to fulltime but they can of course not renew my contract. In a few weeks we will know more about the details of the transition and I will request a meeting with my boss to discuss the implications formally.

Lately however there are aspects within the company culture that have become more visible that I am really starting to resent. There is very little flexibility when it comes to working hours even though this is something we discussed beforehand. There's a personality clash between me and one other person who I was told was only temping for a short period but who's contract is extended all the time. I have tried everything in my power to resolve this but it hasn't worked, and we are in a job where we need to cooperate. But most importantly the lack of diversity is starting to kill me. At first everyone in my office was on their best behaviour (me being a woman of the Millenial generation, my coworkers being mostly gen X males) but masks have dropped and I am tired of hearing racist and sexist BS. I have called out people because of this but every time this results in a backlash, as in, everyone in the room turning against me with raised voices, also the only other woman who is not sexist but is definitely racist. I don't think my coworkers would classify themselves as sexist, I mean, they're not saying stuff like "mothers should not work" like a real sexist. They just say they believe that children need their mother around 24/7 before they are of school age because otherwise they will not thrive, and this is the natural order of things. Which is just a longwinded BS way to say the same thing. (I'm totally fine with people choosing to be SAHP's, but please just say 'we have chosen for my partner to stay at home' instead of telling me what's natural and what's not).

As a young woman with a non-conventional life I stand out. Honestly I will stand out at most places, even though I try to blend in. I have tried to frame our frugality as a form of environmentalism and as a way that my artist partner can focus on his art (which is the truth, but also sounds better than saying 'I'm not a consumer sucka like you guys are') and this is also ridiculed quite often. As a result of all of this I've become more withdrawn and unfortunately the quality of my work is suffering too. Because I'm slowly withdrawing from the group process sometimes I'm not up to speed about stuff on the (work-related) office talk. I have the feeling the temp is also not always passing on messages for me as they should (but can't prove this).

All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2928 on: February 20, 2020, 10:50:34 AM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

Imma

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2929 on: February 20, 2020, 11:31:16 AM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

jeninco

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2930 on: February 20, 2020, 01:04:07 PM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

<snip, for conciseness, and because you don't have to defend who you are!>

It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

I'm sorry you're in this situation. I'm ... a bit older then you (not quite a Boomer), have a MS in Applied Math, and have spent my professional life in a couple of highly technical fields where I'm frequently the only woman in the room (less now then in the last, knock wood).  I basically have had one awesome boss, and have followed him around for most of the past 25 years to avoid a bunch of this BS.

Pretty much anytime someone starts making generalizations about "what women are like" they're wrong, at least as applies to me. I've gotten to the point where I often just look at the person, and let them think about it. This probably works better if you're over a certain age.

I suggest looking over the website askamanager.org before meeting with your boss. Allison covers a lot of the concepts you're looking to express, and while the site is US-focused, there are commenters and questions from other places, too.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2931 on: February 20, 2020, 03:49:15 PM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

As a fellow outsider, let me tell you the hard truth: you will never change the company culture. Your boss will never change the company culture. The culture is a result of the attitudes of all the people that work there and all of the years of previous rules/regulations/acceptable practices. That's not going to change anytime soon. Don't waste your breath talking to your boss. Just leave. All you can do is walk away.

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2932 on: February 20, 2020, 08:10:51 PM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

As a fellow outsider, let me tell you the hard truth: you will never change the company culture. Your boss will never change the company culture. The culture is a result of the attitudes of all the people that work there and all of the years of previous rules/regulations/acceptable practices. That's not going to change anytime soon. Don't waste your breath talking to your boss. Just leave. All you can do is walk away.

You can be like the lady who left Uber and blogged about what it was like there, with supporting documentation.

Here's the physical world equivalent, a Molotov cocktail.   It may or may not end up changing the entire culture but some folks can end up burned beyond all recognition:


AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2933 on: February 21, 2020, 05:15:35 AM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

As a fellow outsider, let me tell you the hard truth: you will never change the company culture. Your boss will never change the company culture. The culture is a result of the attitudes of all the people that work there and all of the years of previous rules/regulations/acceptable practices. That's not going to change anytime soon. Don't waste your breath talking to your boss. Just leave. All you can do is walk away.

You can be like the lady who left Uber and blogged about what it was like there, with supporting documentation.

Here's the physical world equivalent, a Molotov cocktail.   It may or may not end up changing the entire culture but some folks can end up burned beyond all recognition:

Still a giant waste of time, but now you've created enemies AND got yourself a rep as a whistleblower.

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2934 on: February 21, 2020, 06:04:05 AM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

As a fellow outsider, let me tell you the hard truth: you will never change the company culture. Your boss will never change the company culture. The culture is a result of the attitudes of all the people that work there and all of the years of previous rules/regulations/acceptable practices. That's not going to change anytime soon. Don't waste your breath talking to your boss. Just leave. All you can do is walk away.

You can be like the lady who left Uber and blogged about what it was like there, with supporting documentation.

Here's the physical world equivalent, a Molotov cocktail.   It may or may not end up changing the entire culture but some folks can end up burned beyond all recognition:

Still a giant waste of time, but now you've created enemies AND got yourself a rep as a whistleblower.

That's a fair point, it can be a waste of time.   Then again, it can cause change, or at least punish the guilty.

There are more subtle ways if you've got *some* decent people to work with.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2935 on: February 21, 2020, 06:04:34 AM »
Still a giant waste of time, but now you've created enemies AND got yourself a rep as a whistleblower.

I agree.  Maybe if you're FIRE and really never need to work again or deal with people in your former field then this would be OK but otherwise, how exhausting.

You mention that women in your country almost always work part time.  So I assume that that means that women, specifically, are expected culturally to step back from work roles and do most housework and childcare - although I'm sure that there are some women and men who reject these cultural norms.  So it sounds like a country with old fashioned traditional views of gender roles.  Unfortunately, in this situation, changing the entire culture single handedly would be taking on a lot.  It might also be hard to change things from within such a culture. 

Could you find work with a foreign multinational from a country with less rigid gender norms and more powerful working women?  Even here in Italy, things aren't as rigid as you describe gender-wise.  I have kids and work full time  and I have a lot of female colleagues who are similar to me.  With women in powerful positions at my workplace ,  it's hard to stick to rigid gender stereotypes.  I'm sure some people think these things but they would never say them.  My husband picks the kids up every day at school and there are always tons of dads there. 

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2936 on: February 21, 2020, 06:36:42 AM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

As a fellow outsider, let me tell you the hard truth: you will never change the company culture. Your boss will never change the company culture. The culture is a result of the attitudes of all the people that work there and all of the years of previous rules/regulations/acceptable practices. That's not going to change anytime soon. Don't waste your breath talking to your boss. Just leave. All you can do is walk away.

You can be like the lady who left Uber and blogged about what it was like there, with supporting documentation.

Here's the physical world equivalent, a Molotov cocktail.   It may or may not end up changing the entire culture but some folks can end up burned beyond all recognition:

Still a giant waste of time, but now you've created enemies AND got yourself a rep as a whistleblower.

Iím sorry for the situation. To me this is WHY we want to have a union where we work and WHY FI. Most places arenít unionized these days, so that leaves FI. Iíve seen a lot of speaking truth to power in the workplace issues over the years, and outside of situations where there is an institutional process that has your back (E.g. a competent union) , it doesnít typically end well for the person who is acting as the lightning rod.

BlueHouse

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2937 on: February 21, 2020, 07:37:50 AM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

As a fellow outsider, let me tell you the hard truth: you will never change the company culture. Your boss will never change the company culture. The culture is a result of the attitudes of all the people that work there and all of the years of previous rules/regulations/acceptable practices. That's not going to change anytime soon. Don't waste your breath talking to your boss. Just leave. All you can do is walk away.
This comment about changing company culture reminded me of the first company I worked for after college.  It was pretty darn unethical -- lots of pressure on the sales team to "make quota" and lots of pressure on the executives to make their numbers for dividends for investors. This led to lying and cheating and lots of partying in between.  So much of the old boy network including golf trips and strip clubs and harassment of women.  If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I would never believe when people tell me stories like this at their companies.  It actually was gross, but at the time, I just thought it was normal, and even fun. 
Anyway, after 4 years working there, the company kind of got caught in its lies and got acquired by another company that was more straightlaced.  As soon as the acquisition was finalized, the reorgs started.  We were all shocked by the people that were let go immediately. Mostly because we had all bought into how valuable these players were.  the RIFs kept coming until we finally realized they were going to let every single person who was an employee of the first company go.  And we realized that they had to do it because they couldn't know how far the poison had reached and how deep it was embedded.  We all just accepted this fate.   I was given an opportunity to move to another part of the country and work with their new sales team.  I fully understood that it was a transfer of my knowledge to their team and that I would be let go at the end of the contract term.  Within one year after the move, there were about 12 originals of us left, and we all got fired at the one year mark.   That was the only time I saw a company culture change.    It worked out okay for me because that one year doubled my salary and gave me a different type of job that shoved me out of what was viewed as women's work and into men's work.   

mtn

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2938 on: February 21, 2020, 07:39:20 AM »


I don't think my coworkers would classify themselves as sexist, I mean, they're not saying stuff like "mothers should not work" like a real sexist. They just say they believe that children need their mother around 24/7 before they are of school age because otherwise they will not thrive, and this is the natural order of things. Which is just a longwinded BS way to say the same thing. (I'm totally fine with people choosing to be SAHP's, but please just say 'we have chosen for my partner to stay at home' instead of telling me what's natural and what's not).




Your italicized part and my bolded part of your paragraph are at odds with each other. They're saying the same thing, it is sexist, that makes them sexist, at least for this part of the job/life.

Incidentally, I once had that opinion and I once wanted my wife to stay home before our kids were school aged. I still would LIKE it, but as I've grown up I've learned it isn't always the best option. Funnily enough, our opinions have reversed on it. My wife once never would have considered it, but now we're doing everything we can so she can stay home with the kid(s). We wouldn't be able to take that step without FU money - we don't have much of it, but enough that my wife can stay home to take care of kiddo, at least for a couple of years.

BicycleB

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2939 on: February 21, 2020, 09:31:04 AM »
@Imma, I hope your situation is the beginning of a great FU story. It sounds like you're ripe for a change to a better job. The old job has unfixable problems. You have time and money to look for a new job. Further corporate pressures may accelerate the process, but the trend is there. Best wishes for finding a really good employer!!!

I sympathize about being good at one part of the job and not another. I've been through that and another friend is experiencing it now. Fwiw, a search focused on a job that meets your strengths and a culture that is less sexist may involve very few targets, but the focus might just weed out all the other bad employers too. I don't know if this will all proceed at a pace that feels comfortable, but I think there is a very very good option out there somewhere. I hope your thrift, savings and energy lead you to it.

Imma

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2940 on: February 21, 2020, 09:34:58 AM »
Still a giant waste of time, but now you've created enemies AND got yourself a rep as a whistleblower.

I agree.  Maybe if you're FIRE and really never need to work again or deal with people in your former field then this would be OK but otherwise, how exhausting.

You mention that women in your country almost always work part time.  So I assume that that means that women, specifically, are expected culturally to step back from work roles and do most housework and childcare - although I'm sure that there are some women and men who reject these cultural norms.  So it sounds like a country with old fashioned traditional views of gender roles.  Unfortunately, in this situation, changing the entire culture single handedly would be taking on a lot.  It might also be hard to change things from within such a culture. 

Could you find work with a foreign multinational from a country with less rigid gender norms and more powerful working women?  Even here in Italy, things aren't as rigid as you describe gender-wise.  I have kids and work full time  and I have a lot of female colleagues who are similar to me.  With women in powerful positions at my workplace ,  it's hard to stick to rigid gender stereotypes.  I'm sure some people think these things but they would never say them.  My husband picks the kids up every day at school and there are always tons of dads there.
I actually already work for a foreign multinational! My company is from a European country that's conservative in other ways. In that country, women either work fulltime or stay at home. I'm not sure if that's much better. But women in leadership roles are still fairly rare, not just in my country but nationwide.  I have to say that in my country we are progressive about many other things, for example being gay isn't an issue and no one cares if you are religious. I know in many other countries this can still cause issues in the workplace.

For me, due to my health I'm not interested in working fulltime but I am interested in doing specialist work. I designed a new high end basket today and everyone was super happy with it. I think the expectation I will have kids soon and lose my ambition is one of the reasons they're hesitating to let me progress. There are lots more female loom fixers, this is seen as more as a 'woman's job'.

It's not always awful, today was a good day, but there used to be more good and less bad days.

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2941 on: February 21, 2020, 09:40:12 AM »


I don't think my coworkers would classify themselves as sexist, I mean, they're not saying stuff like "mothers should not work" like a real sexist. They just say they believe that children need their mother around 24/7 before they are of school age because otherwise they will not thrive, and this is the natural order of things. Which is just a longwinded BS way to say the same thing. (I'm totally fine with people choosing to be SAHP's, but please just say 'we have chosen for my partner to stay at home' instead of telling me what's natural and what's not).




Your italicized part and my bolded part of your paragraph are at odds with each other. They're saying the same thing, it is sexist, that makes them sexist, at least for this part of the job/life.

Incidentally, I once had that opinion and I once wanted my wife to stay home before our kids were school aged. I still would LIKE it, but as I've grown up I've learned it isn't always the best option. Funnily enough, our opinions have reversed on it. My wife once never would have considered it, but now we're doing everything we can so she can stay home with the kid(s). We wouldn't be able to take that step without FU money - we don't have much of it, but enough that my wife can stay home to take care of kiddo, at least for a couple of years.

I pretty sure you missed the sarcasm in their post.      Granted there's no sarcasm font, but the italics were a clue. :)

mm1970

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2942 on: February 21, 2020, 11:47:54 AM »
Quote
All in all, I will need to have a 1 on 1 talk with my boss when the future of the company is announced. And I need to discuss why I don't feel comfortable at work anymore, in a way that the boss will understand. I'm not sure it's even possible for me to change the company culture even if my boss would agree with me. I think there's a fair chance we'll either decide to part ways or my contract will not be renewed in October. I've not got a lot of liquid cash right now, but I could sell off investments if I had to. I have a side hustle that would  probably bring in just enough income for my half of the bills and I could always find a side job waiting tables or something. I'm just soooo tired of office culture and never fitting in. It's almost worse than high school.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is so tough.  I don't have it that bad (high school was worse, for sure!) but office politics and difficult people make work...wearying.

I had my own tribe of nerds and goths in highschool, I don't have that here. It's not that I'm an extremely weird antisocial person, but I am a woman, I'm a bit of a geek, I'm not into fashion, I'm not particularly nurturing, I'm into music and crafts and history books and stuff like that. I'm not into owning fancy stuff. Just your average mustachian I suppose :) It seems that so far I always end up in organisations dominated by older males who hire younger males who are just like them. There are plenty of other women in grad school with me but it's said they don't last long in this field, which is why they aren't hired, but I dunno, maybe there's a reason they all leave the field so quickly and it's not because women are difficult? ( I think you're an engineer if I remember correctly, I can imagine that's also a very male dominated field)

I'm really good at what I'm specializing in, but I'm not good in all aspects of my general job. Let's say I'm much better at designing high quality baskets than at fixing the looms for underwater basket weaving when they break. I'm trying really hard to becoming better at loom fixing, I watch youtube video's about it in my spare time, but trying to improve means I'm asking lots of questions to coworkers and I work slowly which they perceive as me being incompetent. And of course, I am not good at loom fixing, but hey, I'm not a loom mechanic, I never claimed to be, please let me design the fancy baskets that we can sell for $$$ because that's what I'm really good at. When I do get to design it's always a big success.

As a fellow outsider, let me tell you the hard truth: you will never change the company culture. Your boss will never change the company culture. The culture is a result of the attitudes of all the people that work there and all of the years of previous rules/regulations/acceptable practices. That's not going to change anytime soon. Don't waste your breath talking to your boss. Just leave. All you can do is walk away.
This is mostly true.  However, I have seen quite a few shifts in my (smaller, startup) company culture.  As those of us who are here have aged, the culture has HAD to let up a bit - to allow people to be parents, recover from illness, or age gracefully.  The "culture" of a company of mostly 20-something men changes as those men become 40-something with wives and kids.

Likewise, while I'm not a huge fan of my husband's company culture (lot of old white men), in the last 10 years THEIR culture has shifted a bit.  When he started, I got REALLY tired of the attitudes I got from management "wait, you work full time?" (meaning he had to take on 1/2 the childcare and house duty).  Well, now they are 2x bigger, so 2x more people, a LOT more young people, and a LOT more women and parents from dual working couples.

I've also had middle managers get hired here who are very good at "managing up", so I have seen a few shifts in culture.

It's a slow, painful process however.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2943 on: February 22, 2020, 03:42:28 AM »


I don't think my coworkers would classify themselves as sexist, I mean, they're not saying stuff like "mothers should not work" like a real sexist. They just say they believe that children need their mother around 24/7 before they are of school age because otherwise they will not thrive, and this is the natural order of things. Which is just a longwinded BS way to say the same thing. (I'm totally fine with people choosing to be SAHP's, but please just say 'we have chosen for my partner to stay at home' instead of telling me what's natural and what's not).




Your italicized part and my bolded part of your paragraph are at odds with each other. They're saying the same thing, it is sexist, that makes them sexist, at least for this part of the job/life.

Incidentally, I once had that opinion and I once wanted my wife to stay home before our kids were school aged. I still would LIKE it, but as I've grown up I've learned it isn't always the best option. Funnily enough, our opinions have reversed on it. My wife once never would have considered it, but now we're doing everything we can so she can stay home with the kid(s). We wouldn't be able to take that step without FU money - we don't have much of it, but enough that my wife can stay home to take care of kiddo, at least for a couple of years.

IMO it's not sexist to believe that it's better for the kids if one parent stays home or works part time while children are young (so long as you don't impose those beliefs on others as Imma's managers seem to) but it is sexist to believe that that always has to be the mother of the children and not even consider the possibility of the dad staying home (or working part time) with the kids. 

My husband has contemplated stay at home fatherhood at various points, mainly because he's the lower earner by far, but so far has rejected it for various reasons.  We don't necessarily disclose our incomes to random people but it should be pretty obvious from the nature of our jobs that I'm the one who brings home most of the bacon yet I've still had various people (not Italians though) suggest that I should give up my career or work part time while our kids are small.  No one has ever suggested this to my DH (apart from me).  I find this rather puzzling.

Imma

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2944 on: February 22, 2020, 08:13:30 AM »
My friend has a fulltime management position that she's really happy with and her husband has a fulltime physically demanding job that he's less passionate about. They have several young kids and of course it's a challenge to balance all of that. I don't think anyone has ever suggested he should go parttime or quit, but they keep asking her about it. I know he actually tried to go parttime but his boss refused.

I think everyone should make their own choices about raising their families, and I don't think one choice is inherently better than others. I have friends who thrive as stay at home parents, others feel better working, and some people don't have a choice and most find a way to make it work. I don't think women are programmed to always be good mothers and that men are not wired to be primary caregivers.

I don't care that much about coworkers' views, especially since I don't even have children, but from the statements they have made, it looks they hold the view that men are biologically programmed to be X and women to be Y. And I think it's likely that's colouring their view of me.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2945 on: February 22, 2020, 08:38:35 AM »
My friend has a fulltime management position that she's really happy with and her husband has a fulltime physically demanding job that he's less passionate about. They have several young kids and of course it's a challenge to balance all of that. I don't think anyone has ever suggested he should go parttime or quit, but they keep asking her about it. I know he actually tried to go parttime but his boss refused.

I think everyone should make their own choices about raising their families, and I don't think one choice is inherently better than others. I have friends who thrive as stay at home parents, others feel better working, and some people don't have a choice and most find a way to make it work. I don't think women are programmed to always be good mothers and that men are not wired to be primary caregivers.

I don't care that much about coworkers' views, especially since I don't even have children, but from the statements they have made, it looks they hold the view that men are biologically programmed to be X and women to be Y. And I think it's likely that's colouring their view of me.
Men are biologically programmed to be XY and women are biologically programmed to be XX. (Gene humor, YMMV)

partgypsy

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partgypsy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2947 on: February 22, 2020, 09:04:40 AM »
And here is a positive job story. The first job (first real job out of grad school) when I got pregnant, turned into a hostile work situation, where I was harrassed both during pregnancy (she was very mad at me for getting pregnant) and after returning the friction point was my decision to breastfeed and hence needing to take an actual lunch break to pump... Before I gave birth the room that was reserved for pumping in my building (a hospital no less) was closed because it was basically condemmed. I let boss know I was going to pump in my office. She first didn't say anything, and then tried to get me in trouble to HR saying I pumped in my office without her permission. To avoid problems every day I walked halfway across campus to next closest location to pump. But then she complained I was away from my desk too long (before I would just eat at desk quickly)... she ended up firing me even though even she had to rate me as fully successful in my job performance. Very traumatic at the time (new mom needing a job, also had to walk away from 3 papers in progress) but a blessing in disguise because it was a toxic work situation.   

Fast forward 17? years later at my current job they actually created a pump room for new moms. People contributed things like artwork, comfortable chair, little table etc to make it niche. The majority of people in my department are women, including now the director (though the old director also created a great work environment for all employees). And the general culture has changed.

Anyways, one person generally cannot change a bad or toxic work environment, particularly if the toxicity comes from the top. From my own experience (though it is hard) not to be so tied to your job. If things are bad search out a better working environment, there are ones out there.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 09:17:38 AM by partgypsy »

RobertMa

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2948 on: February 23, 2020, 08:07:17 PM »
Quote
Likewise, while I'm not a huge fan of my husband's company culture (lot of old white men),

I'm inspired by the freedom being attained. But I see no need for this race/gender/age stereotyping. Could someone point out to me what negative culture I am carrying around as an old white man?

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #2949 on: February 23, 2020, 08:45:51 PM »
Quote
Likewise, while I'm not a huge fan of my husband's company culture (lot of old white men),

I'm inspired by the freedom being attained. But I see no need for this race/gender/age stereotyping. Could someone point out to me what negative culture I am carrying around as an old white man?

I think your comment here pretty much sums it up, frankly. As an old white man you might personally be quite liberal and inclusive. I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are. However, as an old white man, you have benefited from certain privileges that not old, and not white and not male people have not. That's not your fault, and of course you should take advantages of the opportunities you have had. The problem lies in not being able to recognise the privileges you have had that others haven't - and that's what your comment shows pretty clearly, imo. I think you need to understand what privilege is. Have a look at this wee comic:


https://www.boredpanda.com/privilege-explanation-comic-strip-on-a-plate-toby-morris/

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not having a go at you personally. Just being an old white man does not make you a bad person or anything else! It's not your fault that we live in this system anymore than it is mine, but it is all of our responsibility to see the system for what it is.