Author Topic: End of inheritance for the middle class  (Read 15030 times)

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2019, 04:28:05 PM »
My opinion: large inheritances - say, beyond the low-to-mid 6 figures - have no positive purpose in society, either at a macro or a micro level.

I sure as hell wouldn't want my kids to wait for any sum of capital from me. I'm happy to teach them to fish, and I'm happy to help pay a little bit for the rod. I'm not gonna supply them the fish though.

If it was up to me I'd be drastically cutting income tax and hugely increasing the estate/inheritance/property transfer tax.
That would be the end of family owned businesses. It is really strange to me to see that on a forum of people singing praises about financial independence, people don't want their children to be financially independent unless they earn it themselves.

I don't want anyone to be financially independent unless he or she earns it himself or herself. It's not about me being a stickler for bootstrapping. It's about me wanting our tax base to expand. Right now we have a lot of mediocre talents inheriting wealth, paying nil tax on it, and then enjoying a comfortable life thereafter. Inherited (and even non-inherited) capital gains are taxed way too lightly. Then we have a lot of people who don't inherit wealth, get rich via their own talent, and pay huge amounts of tax on income. I'd rather see income taxed more lightly and capital more heavily.

If my parents left me a huge sum, which I think they will (but they, touch wood, still have several decades to go), I wouldn't touch it. I'd put it in a family trust and arrange for a nominal income to flow to my future children's education. Maybe. Otherwise I don't want it or need it. I'll be FIRED by then anyway so it will be of no use to me.

The idea that we should support old people (with a pension) who are already sitting on a gold mine just leaves us with higher taxes and less intergenerational mobility.

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2121
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2019, 04:58:00 PM »
Speaking for myself, the article missed the mark. So mature adults aren’t getting inheritances. And that’s a problem because?  I get and agree with the author’s basic point that SS is probably inadequate. OK. So fix that.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2019, 05:10:01 PM »
I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home to finance their old age, and would do it myself if necessary.  After all, if the people who own houses don't pay for their own care, the costs will fall on the people who don't own houses.  There's nothing fair about that.

These seniors paid taxes their entire lives paying for the education of children and many other things.  Why should we abandon seniors when they need finally something back so that they can stay in their homes and live with dignity?

Even if they don't own homes, that would mean they are likely paying the ever-increasing high rentals costs with a shrinking social security check that already doesn't cover their bills.  So, they still need more support.  The article mentioned some ways to address that.

Who said anything about abandoning them?  And who said anything about forcing them out of their homes?  I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  Of course there should be safety nets, and there are, but I don't see why people, even old ones, shouldn't provide for themselves if possible before relying on the state to provide for them.

OK, I thought you said, "I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home."

Either/or - which gives someone the choice to sell up and move on or stay in place.  Did you misread that?

Looks like you didn't say who would make that choice, but either way, I don't really like forcing the elderly to reverse mortgage their homes or sell them, either one.  I think we could provide some assistance to keep them in their homes.  They have enough problems without moving them around - that can be very stressful for them.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2019, 05:16:52 PM »
Speaking for myself, the article missed the mark. So mature adults aren’t getting inheritances. And that’s a problem because?  I get and agree with the author’s basic point that SS is probably inadequate. OK. So fix that.

Yeah, I don't really feel sorry for people who don't get a big inheritance.  I'm more concerned about the senior citizens.

js82

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2019, 06:32:03 PM »
Speaking for myself, the article missed the mark. So mature adults aren’t getting inheritances. And that’s a problem because?  I get and agree with the author’s basic point that SS is probably inadequate. OK. So fix that.

This was my reaction as well.

That said, I do worry about predatory loan-pushers taking advantage of elderly in various stages of cognitive decline by trying to sell them on products they may not need(or practically be able to benefit from).

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2019, 06:34:52 PM »
I don't want anyone to be financially independent unless he or she earns it himself or herself. It's not about me being a stickler for bootstrapping. It's about me wanting our tax base to expand. Right now we have a lot of mediocre talents inheriting wealth, paying nil tax on it, and then enjoying a comfortable life thereafter. Inherited (and even non-inherited) capital gains are taxed way too lightly. Then we have a lot of people who don't inherit wealth, get rich via their own talent, and pay huge amounts of tax on income. I'd rather see income taxed more lightly and capital more heavily.

If my parents left me a huge sum, which I think they will (but they, touch wood, still have several decades to go), I wouldn't touch it. I'd put it in a family trust and arrange for a nominal income to flow to my future children's education. Maybe. Otherwise I don't want it or need it. I'll be FIRED by then anyway so it will be of no use to me.

The idea that we should support old people (with a pension) who are already sitting on a gold mine just leaves us with higher taxes and less intergenerational mobility.

I knew a rich kid for a while.  He just snorted coke and did nothing all the time.  Inherited wealth presumably comes with the burden of what to do with it.  I work for a family business, and it does a lot of damage to the sentiment around the company if a family member gets promoted...  The question of nepotism always arises, regardless of its truth or not.

Quote
I'd rather see income taxed more lightly and capital more heavily.
Is this perspective related to interest rates, by any chance?

2Cent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 745
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2019, 11:47:08 PM »
My opinion: large inheritances - say, beyond the low-to-mid 6 figures - have no positive purpose in society, either at a macro or a micro level.

I sure as hell wouldn't want my kids to wait for any sum of capital from me. I'm happy to teach them to fish, and I'm happy to help pay a little bit for the rod. I'm not gonna supply them the fish though.

If it was up to me I'd be drastically cutting income tax and hugely increasing the estate/inheritance/property transfer tax.
That would be the end of family owned businesses. It is really strange to me to see that on a forum of people singing praises about financial independence, people don't want their children to be financially independent unless they earn it themselves.

I don't want anyone to be financially independent unless he or she earns it himself or herself. It's not about me being a stickler for bootstrapping. It's about me wanting our tax base to expand. Right now we have a lot of mediocre talents inheriting wealth, paying nil tax on it, and then enjoying a comfortable life thereafter. Inherited (and even non-inherited) capital gains are taxed way too lightly. Then we have a lot of people who don't inherit wealth, get rich via their own talent, and pay huge amounts of tax on income. I'd rather see income taxed more lightly and capital more heavily.

If my parents left me a huge sum, which I think they will (but they, touch wood, still have several decades to go), I wouldn't touch it. I'd put it in a family trust and arrange for a nominal income to flow to my future children's education. Maybe. Otherwise I don't want it or need it. I'll be FIRED by then anyway so it will be of no use to me.

The idea that we should support old people (with a pension) who are already sitting on a gold mine just leaves us with higher taxes and less intergenerational mobility.
I guess this is a more american mindset, everyone should work and be rewarded according to their achievements. I can get into that, but I also like to dream of a society where people and people groups are lifted up out of the daily struggle to earn a wage to work on more noble pursuits. Parents leaving something for their children is one way of giving them a boost right around the time their kids will go to college. It is also true that people who know they have their parents as a safety net will be more free to take risks, while people who's parents are struggling will play it safe and maybe even start working instead of taking the risk of a student loan. Maybe you're right and inheritance should be taxed so it can be divided more fairly, but this article read more as old people selling their children's inheritance for pennies on the dollar.

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8889
  • Location: Avalon
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2019, 01:14:49 AM »
I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home to finance their old age, and would do it myself if necessary.  After all, if the people who own houses don't pay for their own care, the costs will fall on the people who don't own houses.  There's nothing fair about that.

These seniors paid taxes their entire lives paying for the education of children and many other things.  Why should we abandon seniors when they need finally something back so that they can stay in their homes and live with dignity?

Even if they don't own homes, that would mean they are likely paying the ever-increasing high rentals costs with a shrinking social security check that already doesn't cover their bills.  So, they still need more support.  The article mentioned some ways to address that.

Who said anything about abandoning them?  And who said anything about forcing them out of their homes?  I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  Of course there should be safety nets, and there are, but I don't see why people, even old ones, shouldn't provide for themselves if possible before relying on the state to provide for them.

OK, I thought you said, "I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home."

Either/or - which gives someone the choice to sell up and move on or stay in place.  Did you misread that?

Looks like you didn't say who would make that choice, but either way, I don't really like forcing the elderly to reverse mortgage their homes or sell them, either one.  I think we could provide some assistance to keep them in their homes.  They have enough problems without moving them around - that can be very stressful for them.

Reverse mortgages solve the problem of people having to move - although in many cases the very elderly and infirm have more difficulty looking after themselves and staying independent if they are in the wrong sort of housing.  It's more difficult for the carers too, which is a big consideration if you've ever been or had, a carer.

And of course assistance can and should be provided to keep someone in a house in which they want to stay.  But if the older person has the money to pay for it, why shouldn't they?  And that includes money in the capital value of the house.  Because you seem to be saying that people can have millions in a house and still be subsidized by people paying income tax at the lowest levels, which is what a blanket exemption for house values could mean.

Who makes the choice?  The older person themselves if they have capacity, of course, and otherwise someone appointed to act for them, which is no different from any other adult.

I really don't understand this reflexive sentimentality towards older people.   Yes, if we think of ourselves as civilised people then there is an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves, including the elderly, and including financially.  But those who can care for themselves financially also have an obligation to the safe and prosperous society that made their relative wealth possible which includes using their own resources before taking resources from others.

use2betrix

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2501
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2019, 05:19:18 AM »

This article makes complete sense to me, and it's not anything new.  The author makes the case that effective federal, state and local policy initiatives are needed that will allow seniors to stay in their homes and age with dignity.  Social security needs propped up, Congress needs to take more action to protect seniors.

Personally, I'd like to break the collective association we have with "seniors staying in the homes they've lived in for decades" and "aging with dignity." Big houses take time and money to maintain. These are two things that elderly people tend to have less and less of as they age. Meanwhile we have a younger generation who is finding it difficult to afford to buy houses big enough for a family, and many are even delaying having kids because they can't afford to house them properly. Seems like a solution to both of these would be to change social norms such that seniors look forward to the day when they can sell their multi-bedroom homes and move into something that better meets their needs as they age.

Keep in mind that this generations expectation of housing size “big enough for a family” is way larger than what it was for the older generations. The average home size is 2-3x bigger than what it was 60 years ago, while the average family size is smaller.

2Cent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 745
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2019, 06:14:32 AM »
...

Keep in mind that this generations expectation of housing size “big enough for a family” is way larger than what it was for the older generations. The average home size is 2-3x bigger than what it was 60 years ago, while the average family size is smaller.
Nowadays we don't let the children play in the street anymore.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2350
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2019, 06:25:27 AM »
I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home to finance their old age, and would do it myself if necessary.  After all, if the people who own houses don't pay for their own care, the costs will fall on the people who don't own houses.  There's nothing fair about that.

These seniors paid taxes their entire lives paying for the education of children and many other things.  Why should we abandon seniors when they need finally something back so that they can stay in their homes and live with dignity?

Even if they don't own homes, that would mean they are likely paying the ever-increasing high rentals costs with a shrinking social security check that already doesn't cover their bills.  So, they still need more support.  The article mentioned some ways to address that.

Who said anything about abandoning them?  And who said anything about forcing them out of their homes?  I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  Of course there should be safety nets, and there are, but I don't see why people, even old ones, shouldn't provide for themselves if possible before relying on the state to provide for them.

OK, I thought you said, "I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home."

Either/or - which gives someone the choice to sell up and move on or stay in place.  Did you misread that?

Looks like you didn't say who would make that choice, but either way, I don't really like forcing the elderly to reverse mortgage their homes or sell them, either one.  I think we could provide some assistance to keep them in their homes.  They have enough problems without moving them around - that can be very stressful for them.

Reverse mortgages solve the problem of people having to move - although in many cases the very elderly and infirm have more difficulty looking after themselves and staying independent if they are in the wrong sort of housing.  It's more difficult for the carers too, which is a big consideration if you've ever been or had, a carer.

And of course assistance can and should be provided to keep someone in a house in which they want to stay.  But if the older person has the money to pay for it, why shouldn't they?  And that includes money in the capital value of the house.  Because you seem to be saying that people can have millions in a house and still be subsidized by people paying income tax at the lowest levels, which is what a blanket exemption for house values could mean.

Who makes the choice?  The older person themselves if they have capacity, of course, and otherwise someone appointed to act for them, which is no different from any other adult.

I really don't understand this reflexive sentimentality towards older people.   Yes, if we think of ourselves as civilised people then there is an obligation to care for those who can't care for themselves, including the elderly, and including financially.  But those who can care for themselves financially also have an obligation to the safe and prosperous society that made their relative wealth possible which includes using their own resources before taking resources from others.

That is all reasonable, but we should not lead our society to believe that they have any business in telling seniors that they must give up their homes for the younger generation's benefit.  So my 80-year-old neighbors living happily in 3 and 4 bedroom homes are welcome to stay. They've earned it, they've paid for it, they're making it work. It's nobody's business but their own and their families (if health declines) to consider a move.

I don't want to be 80 years old in a few decades and have someone trying to tell me what to do with my family's home.  That's simply none of your business.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2019, 06:40:40 AM »
No one is telling seniors to do anything. At most, we are saying that if you want to get a handout from the government (separate from a pension from a pension fund that you contributed to during your working years), you should be willing to abide by the government's terms. In other words, if you can't afford to maintain your retirement with your savings and income, then sell up.

A Fella from Stella

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2019, 06:40:48 AM »
Because my father died in the middle of his highest earning years, leading my mother to sell the business I'd have eventually gotten to buy at a discount, I anticipate there being little cash, but still a house.

Having said that, my mom's not one of these reverse mortgage types. She'd sooner sell/downgrade. Her current place is worth about $300k, and she's talking about selling it and buying something for $150k.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2350
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2019, 06:50:49 AM »
No one is telling seniors to do anything. At most, we are saying that if you want to get a handout from the government (separate from a pension from a pension fund that you contributed to during your working years), you should be willing to abide by the government's terms. In other words, if you can't afford to maintain your retirement with your savings and income, then sell up.

There have been some comments in this thread about how seniors holding onto their homes is a disadvantage to millennials who want to buy homes.  If we start talking about things like -- you don't NEED all that space! -- it starts to sound like people trying to take control of other people's lives and property.

use2betrix

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2501
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2019, 07:52:55 AM »
...

Keep in mind that this generations expectation of housing size “big enough for a family” is way larger than what it was for the older generations. The average home size is 2-3x bigger than what it was 60 years ago, while the average family size is smaller.
Nowadays we don't let the children play in the street anymore.

That really depends where you live. There’s countless safe neighborhoods and towns all over this country.

Not only that, parents are too busy sticking their kids in front of TV’s, computers, and iPads, that the kids don’t seem to want to play outside as much anymore.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2019, 08:38:44 AM »
I wouldn't even call it subsidizing or a handout to seniors struggling to get by on social security considering they've paid taxes and contributed to their communities over a long lifetime, much more so that those who are using the expensive education system, receiving child tax credits, receiving generous taxpayer funded pensions, etc.

I would be fine with paying higher payroll taxes to help sustain SS benefits and even increase them, especially for benefits below the upper bend.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7262
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2019, 08:53:12 AM »
No one is telling seniors to do anything. At most, we are saying that if you want to get a handout from the government (separate from a pension from a pension fund that you contributed to during your working years), you should be willing to abide by the government's terms. In other words, if you can't afford to maintain your retirement with your savings and income, then sell up.

There have been some comments in this thread about how seniors holding onto their homes is a disadvantage to millennials who want to buy homes.  If we start talking about things like -- you don't NEED all that space! -- it starts to sound like people trying to take control of other people's lives and property.

As someone who has made comments in this vein in this thread, I think you're misinterpreting what I said. No, I don't believe anyone (regardless of age) needs more than a bedroom or two if they're living alone or with only a spouse. I would like to see the social norms change such that more people choose not to have larger houses than they need. This has numerous benefits (living smaller is better for the environment, better for your wallet, likely better for housing prices on family-sized homes). This doesn't mean I want it to no longer be a choice.

I do agree with the others who have questioned whether keeping senior homeowners in their current homes is so important that government assistance should be made available for these people when it is not available to others (such as seniors who rent or middle-aged folks who own houses or twenty-somethings who rent). If you've paid off your big house and want to stay in it forever and you have enough other cash to pay your living expenses, sure, knock yourself out. If you can't afford it, move into something smaller. If you can't even afford that, then I'm happy to make some public assistance available to you.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2019, 09:00:48 AM »
Lack of middle-class inheritances are a symptom of widening inequality.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2019, 09:05:13 AM »
I wouldn't even call it subsidizing or a handout to seniors struggling to get by on social security considering they've paid taxes and contributed to their communities over a long lifetime, much more so that those who are using the expensive education system, receiving child tax credits, receiving generous taxpayer funded pensions, etc.

I would be fine with paying higher payroll taxes to help sustain SS benefits and even increase them, especially for benefits below the upper bend.

Conversely, the also had access to more affordable/subsidized post-secondary education. They also had more options for "career", family supporting jobs outside of pursuing post-secondary schooling. And they also had 40+ working years to see the writing on the wall.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2019, 09:32:01 AM »
I wouldn't even call it subsidizing or a handout to seniors struggling to get by on social security considering they've paid taxes and contributed to their communities over a long lifetime, much more so that those who are using the expensive education system, receiving child tax credits, receiving generous taxpayer funded pensions, etc.

I would be fine with paying higher payroll taxes to help sustain SS benefits and even increase them, especially for benefits below the upper bend.

And they also had 40+ working years to see the writing on the wall.

Telling someone they should have saved more doesn't help now.  And who would have predicted health care costs including Medicare related costs, home insurance, property taxes to have continued to grow decade after decade at a much faster rate than inflation while SS benefits have not, while SS benefits are being taxed at much greater percentage now, and with potential cuts to benefits of 25% if nothing is done to prop it up?  We as a society can fit this problem rather than yanking seniors out of their homes.  Have you seen the "ideas" that some of the presidential candidates are coming up with?  They're wanting to throw money at various blocks of people, but seniors are completely left out and sometimes hurt by those bad "ideas".  I think more should be done for some of our most vulnerable citizens.  Cut their property taxes, prop up SS, subsidize their insurance costs, bring down their health care costs.  Health care on Medicare isn't free!  Supplements, parts, out of pocket costs, uncovered costs, long term care can be very expensive.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 09:39:40 AM by FIREstache »

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2019, 09:57:37 AM »
Telling someone they should have saved more doesn't help now.  And who would have predicted health care costs including Medicare related costs, home insurance, property taxes to have continued to grow at a much faster rate than inflation while SS benefits have not, while SS benefits are being taxed at much greater percentage now, and with potential cuts to benefits of 25% if nothing is done to prop it up.  We as a society can fit this problem rather than yanking seniors out of their homes.  Have you seen the "ideas" that some of the presidential candidates are coming up with?  They're wanting to throw money at various blocks of people, but seniors are completely left out and sometimes hurt by those bad "ideas".  I think more should be done for some of our most vulnerable citizens.

I generally agree with you. Pragmatic solutions are what's needed. I'm in favor of lifting the cap on social security contributions. And it terms of potential social security fixes, cutting benefits for current retirees should be a way distant third place to raising taxes and pushing back the retirement age for those yet to retire.

Mostly, I just disagree with the notion that seniors deserve more simply because they've existed in society for longer. And in fact, the ones most imperiled by the current state of Social Security are those yet to retire. Current beneficiaries have another 15 years before their benefits aren't fully funded. And while COLA isn't always as much as they'd like, it's still there. And Seniors, being a reliable voting block, managed to secure themselves Medicare Part D in the mid-2000s which helps offset prescription drug costs.

Anyone who is more than 15 years away from retirement is currently paying into the system, but should only expect to receive 75% of their benefits. This plus the evaporation of pensions means that workers increasingly have to go it alone to fund their retirements.

Your pitch, that we need to take care of seniors because they've contributed so much over their lifetimes, is far more likely to be successful politically though. No doubt about that.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2019, 10:19:56 AM »
I am a senior and totally agree that people need to use their home equity if they need the money before getting assistance. We have a small house with 3 bedrooms and use them all. We have frequent guests and they stay with us. We still do some contract work and each use our small home office/guest bedroom to do it.  Plus when one of us is sick we sleep in separate rooms so we don’t keep the other person up.

Steeze

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1205
  • Age: 36
  • Location: NYC Area of Earth
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2019, 11:00:19 AM »
My great grandparents gave their homes to my grandparents who will give them to my parents. My parents will inherit these properties, sell them, and the money will be gone in 2-3 years. 3 of the 4 are already in the process of being sold and split among the siblings.

It’s not about my right to an inheritance or entitlement. It’s that my parents generation didn’t build upon the wealth of their fathers. They made more money, lived better, easier, more comfortable lives, and spent themselves into a debt oblivion without regard to family wealth. My grandparents and great grandparents worked hard and sacrificed and at the end of it all there was money left over. My parents are planning on living in my basement and collecting social security.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2019, 12:52:19 PM »
Steeze, that plan is not fair to you. They need to save the money they are inheriting.  Otherwise they should get on a list for low income senior housing. This is not your problem. 

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5267
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2019, 01:02:19 PM »
Steeze, that plan is not fair to you. They need to save the money they are inheriting.  Otherwise they should get on a list for low income senior housing. This is not your problem.

It might be if their state has filial responsibility laws.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #75 on: July 05, 2019, 01:04:46 PM »



Mostly, I just disagree with the notion that seniors deserve more simply because they've existed in society for longer.


"Senior citizens have had their whole life to prepare and  save for retirement."

^

This is one of  the arguments I've read and heard against more support/subsidies for senior citizens.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 01:07:41 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #76 on: July 05, 2019, 01:14:11 PM »
Jen, to my knowledge those laws are not enforced.

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5267
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #77 on: July 05, 2019, 01:17:52 PM »

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5684
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #78 on: July 05, 2019, 01:25:56 PM »
Jen, to my knowledge those laws are not enforced.

That may be changing. https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-filial-responsibility-3974828

I forgot that we have discussed these filial responsibility laws before on this website.I made a comment above that I deleted thinking children did not have to pay for the care of their parents but golly Gee that is sometimes an issue. Yet another reason to pay attention to what state you live in.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #79 on: July 05, 2019, 01:51:25 PM »

Mostly, I just disagree with the notion that seniors deserve more simply because they've existed in society for longer.

"Senior citizens have had their whole life to prepare and  save for retirement."

^
This is one of  the arguments I've read and heard against more support/subsidies for senior citizens.

If only we could put them in a time machine to put that experience to use for a redo.

wageslave23

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Location: Midwest
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #80 on: July 05, 2019, 02:06:44 PM »
I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home to finance their old age, and would do it myself if necessary.  After all, if the people who own houses don't pay for their own care, the costs will fall on the people who don't own houses.  There's nothing fair about that.

These seniors paid taxes their entire lives paying for the education of children and many other things.  Why should we abandon seniors when they need finally something back so that they can stay in their homes and live with dignity?

Even if they don't own homes, that would mean they are likely paying the ever-increasing high rentals costs with a shrinking social security check that already doesn't cover their bills.  So, they still need more support.  The article mentioned some ways to address that.

Who said anything about abandoning them?  And who said anything about forcing them out of their homes?  I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  Of course there should be safety nets, and there are, but I don't see why people, even old ones, shouldn't provide for themselves if possible before relying on the state to provide for them.

OK, I thought you said, "I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home."

Either/or - which gives someone the choice to sell up and move on or stay in place.  Did you misread that?

Take it easy firestache.  Nobody is proposing kicking seniors to the curb.  Plan A is they have savings or a pension to live off of.  Plan B is they live off of social security which is more than most people on this forum live off of.  Plan C for those who have not planned ahead AND live beyond their means is to tap the equity in their home to cover their shortfall.  Plan D which is extremely worst case scenario, but completely comfortable and better than 75% of the rest of the world is that they can't afford to support themselves and the government assists them.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #81 on: July 05, 2019, 02:31:29 PM »
I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home to finance their old age, and would do it myself if necessary.  After all, if the people who own houses don't pay for their own care, the costs will fall on the people who don't own houses.  There's nothing fair about that.

These seniors paid taxes their entire lives paying for the education of children and many other things.  Why should we abandon seniors when they need finally something back so that they can stay in their homes and live with dignity?

Even if they don't own homes, that would mean they are likely paying the ever-increasing high rentals costs with a shrinking social security check that already doesn't cover their bills.  So, they still need more support.  The article mentioned some ways to address that.

Who said anything about abandoning them?  And who said anything about forcing them out of their homes?  I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  Of course there should be safety nets, and there are, but I don't see why people, even old ones, shouldn't provide for themselves if possible before relying on the state to provide for them.

OK, I thought you said, "I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home."

Either/or - which gives someone the choice to sell up and move on or stay in place.  Did you misread that?

Take it easy firestache.  Nobody is proposing kicking seniors to the curb.  Plan A is they have savings or a pension to live off of.  Plan B is they live off of social security which is more than most people on this forum live off of. Plan C for those who have not planned ahead AND live beyond their means is to tap the equity in their home to cover their shortfall.  Plan D which is extremely worst case scenario, but completely comfortable and better than 75% of the rest of the world is that they can't afford to support themselves and the government assists them.

The average SS payment is about $17,000/yr.  Most people on this forum spend more than that.  Heck, even my FIRE budget is more than that, and I'm in the lower tier of spending.  And remember, as mentioned in this thread, that payment is in threat of being cut up to 25% some years into the future.  And let's not forget that some people get much less than that, as also mentioned in the article.  We should at least be sure these people are supported.  For those receiving nice pensions, it's probably not going to be much of an issue.

wageslave23

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1765
  • Location: Midwest
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2019, 03:01:04 PM »
I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home to finance their old age, and would do it myself if necessary.  After all, if the people who own houses don't pay for their own care, the costs will fall on the people who don't own houses.  There's nothing fair about that.

These seniors paid taxes their entire lives paying for the education of children and many other things.  Why should we abandon seniors when they need finally something back so that they can stay in their homes and live with dignity?

Even if they don't own homes, that would mean they are likely paying the ever-increasing high rentals costs with a shrinking social security check that already doesn't cover their bills.  So, they still need more support.  The article mentioned some ways to address that.

Who said anything about abandoning them?  And who said anything about forcing them out of their homes?  I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  Of course there should be safety nets, and there are, but I don't see why people, even old ones, shouldn't provide for themselves if possible before relying on the state to provide for them.

OK, I thought you said, "I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home."

Either/or - which gives someone the choice to sell up and move on or stay in place.  Did you misread that?

Take it easy firestache.  Nobody is proposing kicking seniors to the curb.  Plan A is they have savings or a pension to live off of.  Plan B is they live off of social security which is more than most people on this forum live off of. Plan C for those who have not planned ahead AND live beyond their means is to tap the equity in their home to cover their shortfall.  Plan D which is extremely worst case scenario, but completely comfortable and better than 75% of the rest of the world is that they can't afford to support themselves and the government assists them.

The average SS payment is about $17,000/yr.  Most people on this forum spend more than that.  Heck, even my FIRE budget is more than that, and I'm in the lower tier of spending.  And remember, as mentioned in this thread, that payment is in threat of being cut up to 25% some years into the future.  And let's not forget that some people get much less than that, as also mentioned in the article.  We should at least be sure these people are supported.  For those receiving nice pensions, it's probably not going to be much of an issue.

$17000 is per person.  And you probably won't have student loans or a mortgage at 70 yrs old.  Plus Medicare or Medicaid eligible depending on income. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 03:03:00 PM by wageslave23 »

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2019, 03:24:52 PM »
I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home to finance their old age, and would do it myself if necessary.  After all, if the people who own houses don't pay for their own care, the costs will fall on the people who don't own houses.  There's nothing fair about that.

These seniors paid taxes their entire lives paying for the education of children and many other things.  Why should we abandon seniors when they need finally something back so that they can stay in their homes and live with dignity?

Even if they don't own homes, that would mean they are likely paying the ever-increasing high rentals costs with a shrinking social security check that already doesn't cover their bills.  So, they still need more support.  The article mentioned some ways to address that.

Who said anything about abandoning them?  And who said anything about forcing them out of their homes?  I don't understand what point you are trying to make.  Of course there should be safety nets, and there are, but I don't see why people, even old ones, shouldn't provide for themselves if possible before relying on the state to provide for them.

OK, I thought you said, "I have no problem with requiring people to sell or reverse mortgage a home."

Either/or - which gives someone the choice to sell up and move on or stay in place.  Did you misread that?

Take it easy firestache.  Nobody is proposing kicking seniors to the curb.  Plan A is they have savings or a pension to live off of.  Plan B is they live off of social security which is more than most people on this forum live off of. Plan C for those who have not planned ahead AND live beyond their means is to tap the equity in their home to cover their shortfall.  Plan D which is extremely worst case scenario, but completely comfortable and better than 75% of the rest of the world is that they can't afford to support themselves and the government assists them.

The average SS payment is about $17,000/yr.  Most people on this forum spend more than that.  Heck, even my FIRE budget is more than that, and I'm in the lower tier of spending.  And remember, as mentioned in this thread, that payment is in threat of being cut up to 25% some years into the future.  And let's not forget that some people get much less than that, as also mentioned in the article.  We should at least be sure these people are supported.  For those receiving nice pensions, it's probably not going to be much of an issue.

$17000 is per person.  And you probably won't have student loans or a mortgage at 70 yrs old.  Plus Medicare or Medicaid eligible depending on income.

Well, you have many seniors who are either single, widowed, or divorced living alone, so that $17,000/yr doesn't cut it. Student loans and mortgages are irrelevant - just ask all of the struggling seniors.   I have already mentioned Medicare.  It's far from free - and senior's healthcare costs are going up faster than their benefits, faster than inflation.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6733
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2019, 03:43:01 PM »
My great grandparents gave their homes to my grandparents who will give them to my parents. My parents will inherit these properties, sell them, and the money will be gone in 2-3 years. 3 of the 4 are already in the process of being sold and split among the siblings.

It’s not about my right to an inheritance or entitlement. It’s that my parents generation didn’t build upon the wealth of their fathers. They made more money, lived better, easier, more comfortable lives, and spent themselves into a debt oblivion without regard to family wealth. My grandparents and great grandparents worked hard and sacrificed and at the end of it all there was money left over. My parents are planning on living in my basement and collecting social security.

Generation X I presume? I’m right there with you.

My grandfather built an almost million dollar stock portfolio after he retired from the small shop his father left him to the house my grandmother’s father left her, all while living a lifestyle that would put MMM to shame (terrifyingly bad neighborhood, 20 year old car, ripped and stained clothes, no vacations). Within a couple years of his death and estate settlement, his 4 children got new SUVs/trucks and upgraded to larger houses, among other wild purchases. As the vehicles and houses depreciate and devour more money, I’m watching the destruction of entire lifetimes of my ancestors’ hard labor and deprivation.

Something happened with the baby boomer generation that caused them to value huge houses and fancy cars over the well being of their families. Perhaps it was because they were the first generation to be influenced by thousands of hours of commercials, or perhaps they felt entitled because they were the first generation to get their own bedrooms filled with toys. Maybe it was rising individualism/selfishness. IDK. Perhaps it goes in cycles and the BB generation is the “decadent” phase, financially speaking. Perhaps the millennials will restart the family wealth cycle.

There will be nothing for me either, although I have already extracted immeasurable value in various ways from the lives of the earlier generation. It’s just a shame to see the dreams of my grandparents and great-grandparents - to put their families on a permanently more stable level -  squandered on new car smell, double-sized refrigerators, and entire bedrooms devoted to storage of unused merchandise. There is a good chance I will have to choose whether to subsidize my elders at some point, but not before I help them shop for a reverse mortgage. Maybe I’m mean, but one should only get the life’s work and legacy of one generation, at most, to squander.

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2139
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2019, 04:48:53 PM »
FIREstache, let's say we have a senior getting $17k a year from their "social security" (I am Australian, but I understand SS to be something you get based on contributions made while working). Fair enough. Let's say that this senior needs about $27k a year to live a decent lifestyle.

Let's say this senior has $300k in home equity that's available to be tapped via reverse mortgage.

Are you saying that you want the government and taxpayers to subsidise the remaining $10k a year, rather than drawing it from the home equity?

See, that's what I don't get. You can't make an argument based on economic necessity. The senior has that equity, same as if the senior had a bank account full of money. You also can't make an argument based on principle (e.g. 'the senior paid taxes all his/her life') because plenty of rich people have paid taxes all their lives, have a vast fortune and don't get any handout whatsoever from the government (and nor should they).

I think it's ridiculous how well we prioritise seniors.

If you want a retirement income with no strings attached, fund it yourself.

If you want government assistance during retirement, expect to use up most of your savings/equity before then getting that assistance.

alienbogey

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 90
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2019, 05:32:30 PM »
^^^  This

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2019, 06:53:52 PM »
Something happened with the baby boomer generation that caused them to value huge houses and fancy cars over the well being of their families. Perhaps it was because they were the first generation to be influenced by thousands of hours of commercials, or perhaps they felt entitled because they were the first generation to get their own bedrooms filled with toys. Maybe it was rising individualism/selfishness. IDK. Perhaps it goes in cycles and the BB generation is the “decadent” phase, financially speaking. Perhaps the millennials will restart the family wealth cycle.

I know quite a few boomers including some older siblings and cousins, but I don't feel that accurately describes most of them.  I generally don't like broad generalizations about people simply because of their age group.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2019, 07:12:46 PM »
FIREstache, let's say we have a senior getting $17k a year from their "social security" (I am Australian, but I understand SS to be something you get based on contributions made while working). Fair enough. Let's say that this senior needs about $27k a year to live a decent lifestyle.

Let's say this senior has $300k in home equity that's available to be tapped via reverse mortgage.

Are you saying that you want the government and taxpayers to subsidise the remaining $10k a year, rather than drawing it from the home equity?

No, not unless that $10,000 is mostly from health care expenses, otherwise, that sounds excessive.  I'm not suggesting an unlimited blank check.  I'm saying we should support them through preventing SS cuts by funding SS sufficiently over the long term, increasing SS benefits more inline with actual increases in living costs experienced by seniors, setting the taxation thresholds for SS to match what they were set for in 1983 but adjusting for inflation, reducing their health care costs (including all the costs associated with Medicare and parts/supplements), and providing property tax/insurance tax credits to cover part of those costs.

Quote
I think it's ridiculous how well we prioritise seniors.

They aren't prioritized in this country.  Just looks at what the democrat candidates are saying.

Quote
because plenty of rich people have paid taxes all their lives, have a vast fortune and don't get any handout whatsoever from the government (and nor should they).

Ironically, there are many people, at least one presidential candidate, and people on this forum who support doing just that, giving handouts to wealthy people with vast fortunes.  And even more ironic is that those seniors I'm referring to here will be left out.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-mustachians-support-universal-basic-income/msg2405431/#msg2405431

Harris' $6000/yr tax credit leaves out retired seniors also because it only applies to earned income from a job, not SS income.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/2020-potus-candidates-101697/msg2405420/#msg2405420
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 07:21:21 PM by FIREstache »

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5684
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2019, 07:27:29 PM »

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2121
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2019, 07:36:50 PM »
Speaking for myself, the article missed the mark. So mature adults aren’t getting inheritances. And that’s a problem because?  I get and agree with the author’s basic point that SS is probably inadequate. OK. So fix that.

This was my reaction as well.

That said, I do worry about predatory loan-pushers taking advantage of elderly in various stages of cognitive decline by trying to sell them on products they may not need(or practically be able to benefit from).

It’s open season when it comes to the elderly. Part of the reason I’m so keen on kids. All of us will come to a point in our lives where we need advocates who actually care about us.

BTDretire

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3074
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2019, 07:37:56 PM »

I'd rather see income taxed more lightly and capital more heavily.


 I like it that we get a chance to build a nest egg and keep it.
I also like that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate (than W2 income)
giving those of us trying to build a nest egg a better chance.
 Taxing capital makes it harder for lower income families to get ahead.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2019, 07:45:54 PM »
Speaking for myself, the article missed the mark. So mature adults aren’t getting inheritances. And that’s a problem because?  I get and agree with the author’s basic point that SS is probably inadequate. OK. So fix that.

This was my reaction as well.

That said, I do worry about predatory loan-pushers taking advantage of elderly in various stages of cognitive decline by trying to sell them on products they may not need(or practically be able to benefit from).

It’s open season when it comes to the elderly. Part of the reason I’m so keen on kids. All of us will come to a point in our lives where we need advocates who actually care about us.

True.  And sometimes, having kids who are actively involved doesn't even help protect the elderly against these parasites.  This thread refers to a guardianship that was really scary to think about:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/scary-article-about-%27how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights%27/

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2019, 07:50:32 PM »

I'd rather see income taxed more lightly and capital more heavily.

 I like it that we get a chance to build a nest egg and keep it.
I also like that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate (than W2 income)
giving those of us trying to build a nest egg a better chance.
 Taxing capital makes it harder for lower income families to get ahead.

That was Bloop Bloop who made that comment, not Wrenchturner.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8964
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2019, 07:54:35 PM »
Telling someone they should have saved more doesn't help now. 

No, but it's very instructive for those watching so they can mend their own ways.  "Pour encourager les autres," as the French would say.

And who would have predicted ... home insurance, property taxes to have continued to grow ...
Well, given that homes are much, much larger than they were when I was a kid, and that property taxes are based on home value which is (and has always been!) largely impacted by size, pretty much anyone with a brain who gave it the slightest thought could have figured those parts out.

And who would have predicted ... SS benefits … with potential cuts to benefits of 25% if nothing is done to prop it up?

Me?  In 1968 at age 11?   After reading an article on the front page of a newspaper which covered that very topic as well an article about how Ponzi schemes are funded?  This was all over the news back then.   And from context it was very clear the same issues had been brought up multiple times in years past.

Cut their property taxes, prop up SS, subsidize their insurance costs, bring down their health care costs.  Health care on Medicare isn't free!  Supplements, parts, out of pocket costs, uncovered costs, long term care can be very expensive.
In my county elderly people with lower incomes ALREADY have their property taxes cut.   
The time to prop up SS was when the people currently receiving it or about to receive it (including me) were in their prime earning years, NOT after they pass that buck to a younger generation.
We do subsidize their insurance costs.  It's called Medicare.


FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2019, 09:21:28 PM »
Telling someone they should have saved more doesn't help now. 

No, but it's very instructive for those watching so they can mend their own ways. 

It's too little too late.  It might make you feel better, but it solves nothing.

And who would have predicted ... home insurance, property taxes to have continued to grow ...
Quote
Well, given that homes are much, much larger than they were when I was a kid, and that property taxes are based on home value which is (and has always been!) largely impacted by size, pretty much anyone with a brain who gave it the slightest thought could have figured those parts out.

You misquoted me.  You left off this extremely critical part of my quote which is important for context "continued to grow decade after decade at a much faster rate than inflation while SS benefits have not, while SS benefits are being taxed at much greater percentage now"

And I mentioned this elsewhere, my property taxes and insurance have gone up far far faster than the value of my home has gone up, much faster than inflation.  Imaging for seniors over a much longer time period.

Quote
And who would have predicted ... SS benefits … with potential cuts to benefits of 25% if nothing is done to prop it up?

Me?  In 1968 at age 11?

Again, you're misquoting me.  What I actually stated was:

And who would have predicted health care costs including Medicare related costs, home insurance, property taxes to have continued to grow decade after decade at a much faster rate than inflation while SS benefits have not, while SS benefits are being taxed at much greater percentage now, and with potential cuts to benefits of 25% if nothing is done to prop it up?

In other words, it's a piling on of multiple things over multiple decades that has made the problem much worse.

Quote
In my county elderly people with lower incomes ALREADY have their property taxes cut.   

I know of places that do that also, but it's a very small amount such as 10% off on a $200,000 home, that doesn't give much relief, and that's not the same thing as a property tax credit which gives potentially a credit for half of the tax amount and makes a more significant impact if applied at the federal level.

Quote
The time to prop up SS was when the people currently receiving it or about to receive it (including me) were in their prime earning years, NOT after they pass that buck to a younger generation.

Do you have a time machine to go back so that we can make changes sooner?  Future generations will still receive SS.  It makes sense to increase the payroll tax and lift the cap, and increase the retirement age for those of us over 10 years from SS age, and further yet for those 15+, more for those 20+ years from SS age as to sustain it for future generations.

Quote
We do subsidize their insurance costs.  It's called Medicare.

Medicare Part A, which seniors have paid into all of their careers, only pays a small part of seniors health care costs.  I already mentioned the additional Medicare costs in my previous posts.  You really need to purchase additional Medicare parts and supplemental, and even then not everything is covered.  I know people that are paying about $10,000 per year for Medicare parts/supplementals, and it still doesn't cover everything.  People on ACA subsidies can get by with much lower costs than that, Medicaid even less.  Also, if a senior has not paid into Medicare for long enough while working, they are not eligible for even the free and limited Part A, they have to pay even for that, not to mention those other parts/supplementals.  I think we need to lessen this ever-increasing financial burden from some of our most vulnerable citizens.  I realize some people hate old people and would rather see them suffer while giving $12,000/yr to the young wealthy as a UBI payment, which I think you even expressed potential support for, which would leave these seniors out (see link in my previous post).  So I'm trying to be a spokesperson for seniors, who are being neglected.  After-all, we hope we all will be old someday.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2019, 09:23:09 PM »
Some of you assume that all baby boomers came from money. My relatives were all frugal yet nothing to pass down.  Most of us didn’t live above our means and Medicare here is 600/month per person.   

Buffaloski Boris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2121
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2019, 10:34:55 PM »
My great grandparents gave their homes to my grandparents who will give them to my parents. My parents will inherit these properties, sell them, and the money will be gone in 2-3 years. 3 of the 4 are already in the process of being sold and split among the siblings.

It’s not about my right to an inheritance or entitlement. It’s that my parents generation didn’t build upon the wealth of their fathers. They made more money, lived better, easier, more comfortable lives, and spent themselves into a debt oblivion without regard to family wealth. My grandparents and great grandparents worked hard and sacrificed and at the end of it all there was money left over. My parents are planning on living in my basement and collecting social security.

Generation X I presume? I’m right there with you.

My grandfather built an almost million dollar stock portfolio after he retired from the small shop his father left him to the house my grandmother’s father left her, all while living a lifestyle that would put MMM to shame (terrifyingly bad neighborhood, 20 year old car, ripped and stained clothes, no vacations). Within a couple years of his death and estate settlement, his 4 children got new SUVs/trucks and upgraded to larger houses, among other wild purchases. As the vehicles and houses depreciate and devour more money, I’m watching the destruction of entire lifetimes of my ancestors’ hard labor and deprivation.

Something happened with the baby boomer generation that caused them to value huge houses and fancy cars over the well being of their families. Perhaps it was because they were the first generation to be influenced by thousands of hours of commercials, or perhaps they felt entitled because they were the first generation to get their own bedrooms filled with toys. Maybe it was rising individualism/selfishness. IDK. Perhaps it goes in cycles and the BB generation is the “decadent” phase, financially speaking. Perhaps the millennials will restart the family wealth cycle.

There will be nothing for me either, although I have already extracted immeasurable value in various ways from the lives of the earlier generation. It’s just a shame to see the dreams of my grandparents and great-grandparents - to put their families on a permanently more stable level -  squandered on new car smell, double-sized refrigerators, and entire bedrooms devoted to storage of unused merchandise. There is a good chance I will have to choose whether to subsidize my elders at some point, but not before I help them shop for a reverse mortgage. Maybe I’m mean, but one should only get the life’s work and legacy of one generation, at most, to squander.

I agree that one generation worth of wealth is all you should get to squander.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8964
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2019, 11:28:35 PM »
My great grandparents gave their homes to my grandparents who will give them to my parents. My parents will inherit these properties, sell them, and the money will be gone in 2-3 years. 3 of the 4 are already in the process of being sold and split among the siblings.

It’s not about my right to an inheritance or entitlement. It’s that my parents generation didn’t build upon the wealth of their fathers. They made more money, lived better, easier, more comfortable lives, and spent themselves into a debt oblivion without regard to family wealth. My grandparents and great grandparents worked hard and sacrificed and at the end of it all there was money left over. My parents are planning on living in my basement and collecting social security.

Generation X I presume? I’m right there with you.

My grandfather built an almost million dollar stock portfolio after he retired from the small shop his father left him to the house my grandmother’s father left her, all while living a lifestyle that would put MMM to shame (terrifyingly bad neighborhood, 20 year old car, ripped and stained clothes, no vacations). Within a couple years of his death and estate settlement, his 4 children got new SUVs/trucks and upgraded to larger houses, among other wild purchases. As the vehicles and houses depreciate and devour more money, I’m watching the destruction of entire lifetimes of my ancestors’ hard labor and deprivation.

Something happened with the baby boomer generation that caused them to value huge houses and fancy cars over the well being of their families. Perhaps it was because they were the first generation to be influenced by thousands of hours of commercials, or perhaps they felt entitled because they were the first generation to get their own bedrooms filled with toys. Maybe it was rising individualism/selfishness. IDK. Perhaps it goes in cycles and the BB generation is the “decadent” phase, financially speaking. Perhaps the millennials will restart the family wealth cycle.

There will be nothing for me either, although I have already extracted immeasurable value in various ways from the lives of the earlier generation. It’s just a shame to see the dreams of my grandparents and great-grandparents - to put their families on a permanently more stable level -  squandered on new car smell, double-sized refrigerators, and entire bedrooms devoted to storage of unused merchandise. There is a good chance I will have to choose whether to subsidize my elders at some point, but not before I help them shop for a reverse mortgage. Maybe I’m mean, but one should only get the life’s work and legacy of one generation, at most, to squander.

I agree that one generation worth of wealth is all you should get to squander.

I'm a boomer.   

My grandparents on my mom's side were hard working farmers.  They didn't have much money but they did a good job with the family farm and, with help from two of their children, bought a 2nd farm and shared the profits. 

I have no idea what the grandparents on my dad's side did.  They died when I was young and I doubt they had much based on what I do know.

My parents worked hard and saved and invested.  They inherited part of the farms which accelerated that process.

My wife's parents were working class folks.   Her mom's family had been wealthy before the Great Depression but lost it all.  Her  dad died from a cancer-causing substance he got from working with it.   Her mom got a hefty settlement and invested it decades ago.  It's now covering her expenses in an assisted living facility and growing.

And us?  We hit a $1M net worth right before my parents died.  Modest houses, less than modest cars, lots of savings.  We were a year away from FIRE at that point, with 4 houses owned free and clear, plus a good sized portfolio.  Our net worth is growing even in FIRE.

Inheritance increased our safety margin, for sure.  But it wasn't necessary.   Folks who followed my MMM journal laughed at me, claiming my hobby appeared to be building lots of different safety margins.

2 out of 3 of my wife's siblings have also done very well for themselves.   The other was apparently born a spoiled brat and honed that "talent" to perfection over a lifetime of practice.

We're meeting with lawyers now to get some trusts set up, one for our mentally handicapped daughter and the other for our assets.   Barring some catastrophic set of circumstances we should be passing on a hefty inheritance to our kids.

We also renovated a really neat house just to save it and flipped it at cost so it would be in the hands of a family that would love it.   We're now exploring various ways to set up houses to help different groups of people, either students needing cheap (but nice) housing to halfway houses for foster kids ageing out of the foster care system.  One brother-in-law set up a medical clinic for the poor in his county and kept it running for many years until medicaid was expanded in his state and removed the pressing need for it.  Another brother-in-law is doing a lot of pro bono work to help out the immigrant community navigate the increasingly hostile immigration process. 

So, clearly, not all boomers were selfish financial twits.   

It would be interesting to know the relative percentages of money morons per generation.   Anyone know of useable stats for that purpose?

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: End of inheritance for the middle class
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2019, 10:24:13 AM »
Sword, I love your housing idea to help others. Rents have skyrocketed here and working people and seniors end up homeless. They are building mostly upscale homes and condos/apartments.  Buying a home requires a household income of 80k yet the median here is 48k.