Author Topic: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic  (Read 7370 times)

frugalnacho

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Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« on: March 18, 2020, 09:34:16 AM »
We just had an interesting webinar with our legal counsel about workplace guidance regarding the coronavirus.  The whole meeting seemed like they were taking it as a joke.  It was all about the new and existing regulations, and basically how could companies stay in business and not send people home, and in the event they needed to send people home, how little can they get away with paying them?  And how the business can make sure to apply policies in a non-discriminatory way so they don't get in legal trouble down the line.  If someone is on quarantine, or not feeling well, our company has specifically barred the use of vacation time.  You must use sick time, and if you run out of sick time you must file for unemployment or take unpaid time.  They seem extremely worried about having to pay employees who aren't working, which I get from a business standpoint, you can't realistically pay your entire workforce to stay home for 3 months because you'll bankrupt the company, but the entire tone seemed so cavalier. 

Numerous jokes about "6 feet! social distancing!", and plenty of eye rolls about people needing to take time off.

Legal counsel made sure to stress that although the WHO has declared it a pandemic, the CDC and OSHA have not officially declared it as a pandemic.  They brought it up multiple times and really stressed that this may in fact not be a pandemic.

The owner of the company is leaving for a florida vacation later today.  They are very glad the beaches in florida have not been officially shut down because they are planning to hit up the crowded beaches.


turketron

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 09:48:32 AM »
Ugh my dad was just telling me the same thing about his boss, who has finally relented and is allowing their staff to WFH but he still wants them to come in 2 days a week, and their department works entirely online and basically do all their work out of spreadsheets. Anecdotally from the handful of people I've talked to in this scenario, the bosses are older white dudes who don't really have a good argument against WFH other than "we've always done it this way."

Unfortunately it seems to be a common occurrence, I was just reading a post on AskAManager this: https://www.askamanager.org/2020/03/what-to-do-if-your-company-isnt-handling-coronavirus-well.html

Cassie

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 10:05:59 AM »
That’s really sad and your company is in denial. Not being allowed to use your vacation time if you are sick is ridiculous.

nemesis

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 10:06:48 AM »
There are old school managers who are out of touch with reality.  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/03/charter-faces-blowback-after-banning-work-from-home-during-pandemic/

I cannot wait for some of these ancient dinosaurs to disappear from the work place so we can move forward with more modern ways of doing work.

Also, imagine the potential liability should their workers get sick or die, due to their lack of taking this issue seriously.  Just imagine the lawsuits and settlements after the fact when this is over.  I wouldn't want to be one of those businesses right now or after the mess is cleaned up.

Always use the golden rule - take care of your people first and foremost, everything else takes care of itself.

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 10:14:06 AM »
There are old school managers who are out of touch with reality.  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/03/charter-faces-blowback-after-banning-work-from-home-during-pandemic/

I cannot wait for some of these ancient dinosaurs to disappear from the work place so we can move forward with more modern ways of doing work.

Also, imagine the potential liability should their workers get sick or die, due to their lack of taking this issue seriously.  Just imagine the lawsuits and settlements after the fact when this is over.  I wouldn't want to be one of those businesses right now or after the mess is cleaned up.

Always use the golden rule - take care of your people first and foremost, everything else takes care of itself.

If it wasn't clear, this was a webinar provided by our legal counsel, which is a very large multi-state firm.  This webinar was specific for michigan businesses.  They are the ones advising management of these decisions.  They are the ones stressing that "the cdc has stopped short of declaring this a pandemic". 

nemesis

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 10:24:20 AM »
There are old school managers who are out of touch with reality.  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/03/charter-faces-blowback-after-banning-work-from-home-during-pandemic/

I cannot wait for some of these ancient dinosaurs to disappear from the work place so we can move forward with more modern ways of doing work.

Also, imagine the potential liability should their workers get sick or die, due to their lack of taking this issue seriously.  Just imagine the lawsuits and settlements after the fact when this is over.  I wouldn't want to be one of those businesses right now or after the mess is cleaned up.

Always use the golden rule - take care of your people first and foremost, everything else takes care of itself.

If it wasn't clear, this was a webinar provided by our legal counsel, which is a very large multi-state firm.  This webinar was specific for michigan businesses.  They are the ones advising management of these decisions.  They are the ones stressing that "the cdc has stopped short of declaring this a pandemic".
I hear you, but I think in these unprecedented times, the existing law firms don't have exactly the best handle on this scenario and don't understand the potential liability / exposure in a national / global emergency.

Hell, it was safe to sell asbestos in the past, lawyers okayed it.  Lawyers gave the okay to use glycophosphate in Roundup as well...and now the legal bills keep mounting - https://usrtk.org/monsanto-roundup-trial-tracker-index/

Just because some shmuck lawyer / law firm is ok with it today doesn't mean the business is guaranteed to get away scot free.  A global business like the NBA willingly shut down, without any government guidance or prodding...to protect themselves from future possible lawsuits and huge liabilities.  The fact that your business is stupid enough to act in such a reckless manner despite the overwhelming examples set by richer businesses like the NBA, Apple, Google, etc. who are dealing with this in the utmost serious manner, makes it highly probable they are setting themselves up for maximum legal liability down the road should this thing get super nasty.

The ones who profit from all of this will be the lawyers.  Yes, the same idiot lawyers who gave the guidance to your company today will happily bill your company to defend them against costly lawsuits down the road when things go wrong.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 10:40:21 AM by nemesis »

nemesis

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 10:43:40 AM »
Ugh my dad was just telling me the same thing about his boss, who has finally relented and is allowing their staff to WFH but he still wants them to come in 2 days a week, and their department works entirely online and basically do all their work out of spreadsheets. Anecdotally from the handful of people I've talked to in this scenario, the bosses are older white dudes who don't really have a good argument against WFH other than "we've always done it this way."

Unfortunately it seems to be a common occurrence, I was just reading a post on AskAManager this: https://www.askamanager.org/2020/03/what-to-do-if-your-company-isnt-handling-coronavirus-well.html
In these cases I would suggest "feeling a bit sick, self-quarantine for a while".

Fuck these idiot bosses who have only profit in mind and not the safety / well-being of the community.  They don't understand if we don't get this under control now, their businesses will go belly up sooner or later.  IDIOTS...

Also, as an employee, I would DOCUMENT the shit out of this.  Protest that it's not safe to go to work when states are shutting congregations of people, the White House is recommending severe measures.  Then if things go wrong, lawsuit time to get those mofo's back.

BECABECA

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2020, 10:49:30 AM »
That’s really frustrating. It sounds like you’re just going to have to wait until your county or state makes the blanket decree that all nonessential businesses need to shut their offices.

My spouse’s county job was being very slow to allow any telecommuting (or even start thinking about putting VPN on people’s laptops!) I’ve been pushing her to push her leadership to get in front of this (especially since we have local community transmission as of last week). Yesterday morning they finally came around to allowing nonessential staff to telecommute if they would like to, but by the afternoon our entire county issued an order for all nonessential businesses to close their offices. So now they are all suddenly trying to work from home, not having made any plans with VPN or laptops or anything.

Hopefully your state and county leadership will be better than your company leadership.

therethere

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2020, 10:49:49 AM »
DH's work is still having all-hands meetings and lunches. So clueless. And today they're talking about forced weekend work. He asked some pointed questions about their coronavirus plans on Monday and got promptly shut down, while everyone else stayed quiet. They're all downplaying or ignoring the potential spread. Granted maybe 15-20 people work in the building with another 10 offsite, but still I would consider them a "non-essential" company. They're trying to meet an early April delivery timeline for a product. But this is a small company that has already been doing some fishy stuff surrounding financing and deliveries over the past year so the writing is on the wall. At least they flat out admitted they wouldn't be able to pay anyone if they shut down. That's more respectful to me than downplaying what's going on and saying it's not a big deal.  DH has high anxiety already and I'm terribly worried for his mental health.

I'm wondering if our reaction is markedly different because we're living downtown in a city that's shutting down. Meanwhile all his coworkers live in a house in the burbs and maybe aren't seeing too much of an impact past Costco lines?

OtherJen

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2020, 12:03:02 PM »
We have our first in-state death. Even if your employer doesn't change their tune, enough of your coworkers might.

Sibley

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2020, 12:32:44 PM »
Or the state/city will impose a shutdown.

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2020, 12:37:00 PM »
We have our first in-state death. Even if your employer doesn't change their tune, enough of your coworkers might.

In the very county I work in.

OtherJen

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2020, 12:39:50 PM »
We have our first in-state death. Even if your employer doesn't change their tune, enough of your coworkers might.

In the very county I work in.

Yep, and where I live. As far as I can tell, it happened in my parents' city. Now I'm even more annoyed and worried that my dad (early 70s, several fortunately controlled health issues) wouldn't let me do his grocery shopping and that my mom (late 60s) continues to work full time even though her company has already had to send sick employees home.

OtherJen

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2020, 12:47:54 PM »
Detroit automakers Ford, General Motors, FCA agree to close all US plants

My current city and hometown (next city over) are basically shut down at this point. Ford office workers were already at home, and both cities declared states of emergency and shut down all municipal buildings. Surreal.

GuitarStv

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2020, 01:07:45 PM »
It's frustrating to see people doing all they can to guarantee the spread of this disease.  I mean, sure . . . the survivors will be able to sue the company owners later.  But that's only if the idiots haven't managed to kill themselves first.

nemesis

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2020, 01:11:17 PM »
It's frustrating to see people doing all they can to guarantee the spread of this disease.  I mean, sure . . . the survivors will be able to sue the company owners later.  But that's only if the idiots haven't managed to kill themselves first.
You think that's bad... there are companies still sending sales people door to door trying to sell services.

One of my friends had a sales person knock on the door trying to sell them solar services.  Insane.

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2020, 01:23:28 PM »
It's frustrating to see people doing all they can to guarantee the spread of this disease.  I mean, sure . . . the survivors will be able to sue the company owners later.  But that's only if the idiots haven't managed to kill themselves first.
You think that's bad... there are companies still sending sales people door to door trying to sell services.

One of my friends had a sales person knock on the door trying to sell them solar services.  Insane.

I am getting calls from vendors trying to sell services.  Just got one about fire safety. Guy wants to come on site and conduct fire safety training.  Like dude, you know there is a global pandemic going on right? Also a major financial crisis? For those 2 reasons I am not even going to be polite and entertain this, it's a hard no, we are not trying to ramp up our vendor services right now unless you have hand sanitizer or toilet paper you can sell me (he didn't, I asked).

Bernard

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2020, 01:35:36 PM »

nemesis

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2020, 01:46:01 PM »

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2020, 02:04:24 PM »


Legal counsel made sure to stress that although the WHO has declared it a pandemic, the CDC and OSHA have not officially declared it as a pandemic.  They brought it up multiple times and really stressed that this may in fact not be a pandemic.



Why is employer's legal counsel overemphasizing that CDC and OSHA have NOT declared COVID-19 a pandemic?

Liability?

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2020, 02:12:16 PM »


Legal counsel made sure to stress that although the WHO has declared it a pandemic, the CDC and OSHA have not officially declared it as a pandemic.  They brought it up multiple times and really stressed that this may in fact not be a pandemic.



Why is employer's legal counsel overemphasizing that CDC and OSHA have NOT declared COVID-19 a pandemic?

Liability?

To me it sounded like it was to downplay the situation.  You know, because technically the CDC hasn't even declared this a pandemic so it's not actually as dire as some whiners are making it out to be.

GuitarStv

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2020, 06:32:02 AM »
Not employer related, but employee related.  We had a person from one of our branches in the US in one of the southern states head off to a client site yesterday - after he had been diagnosed with covid-19 six days ago.  Said he was feeling fine - so didn't feel a need to self quarantine any more, and he was worried about missing deadlines.  My understanding is that his manager was really on the ball, got the email about the employee going to site, figured out what was happening and managed to call/stop the guy in the parking lot outside of the client's building.  Dunno if we're going to try to hush this up or what with the client.

So now we're all taking a lot of shit from higher up to stay the hell home.  Which means I also have to pass the shit downhill to all the guys I manage.  Sigh.  Why are people so damned stupid.

SunnyDays

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2020, 10:21:23 AM »
Maybe Safety Sandy could have set them straight!

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2020, 10:30:48 AM »
She was freaked out about this back in december.  She would be insufferable about it now, if she was even in the office.  I'm sure she would have self quarantined back in February.  It would be good to have someone here that is actually taking the risks seriously, but she would be completely overboard to the point of inducing panic rather than taking rational precautions. 

ixtap

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2020, 10:57:04 AM »
She was freaked out about this back in december.  She would be insufferable about it now, if she was even in the office.  I'm sure she would have self quarantined back in February.  It would be good to have someone here that is actually taking the risks seriously, but she would be completely overboard to the point of inducing panic rather than taking rational precautions.

This is my roommate. She has several flats of water, cases of fizzy water, plus coconut water and broth. And a bunch of snack food. I know she also has some canned fruit and meat, but she started eating those while she was still shopping every other day. And she sends us text messages about whatever it is that she gets worked up about. And gets pissy with me when she wants to discuss the latest hoax and I just say it seems to be a hoax, there are not any reported cases of X happening, just lots of warnings about it happening (ie, door to door testing as an excuse to open doors and rob houses). Uh, am up to date about the lack of testing, I wasn't going to open my door for that crap, anyway. And I can't find a single report of it actually happening. So stop with the hysteria.

GuitarStv

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2020, 11:19:31 AM »
She was freaked out about this back in december.  She would be insufferable about it now, if she was even in the office.  I'm sure she would have self quarantined back in February.  It would be good to have someone here that is actually taking the risks seriously, but she would be completely overboard to the point of inducing panic rather than taking rational precautions.

This is my roommate. She has several flats of water, cases of fizzy water, plus coconut water and broth. And a bunch of snack food. I know she also has some canned fruit and meat, but she started eating those while she was still shopping every other day. And she sends us text messages about whatever it is that she gets worked up about. And gets pissy with me when she wants to discuss the latest hoax and I just say it seems to be a hoax, there are not any reported cases of X happening, just lots of warnings about it happening (ie, door to door testing as an excuse to open doors and rob houses). Uh, am up to date about the lack of testing, I wasn't going to open my door for that crap, anyway. And I can't find a single report of it actually happening. So stop with the hysteria.

Just start coughing every time you're around her.  I suspect she'll leave you alone.  :P

mm1970

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2020, 11:35:45 AM »
this is terrible.  Our office was a little "meh" about it last week, and had planned to make this coming friday a "WFH day" for everyone, to test out our systems and see that we have enough VPNs.

They moved it up to this past Tuesday, and everyone who CAN WFH, is working from home.  Quick switch, and I'm pretty impressed with the company for doing it.  My boss allows WFH normally, but only a little bit.  Now that his and my kids are very likely not going back to school till fall, I'm sure he'll change his tune.

turketron

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2020, 12:48:26 PM »
Ugh my dad was just telling me the same thing about his boss, who has finally relented and is allowing their staff to WFH but he still wants them to come in 2 days a week, and their department works entirely online and basically do all their work out of spreadsheets. Anecdotally from the handful of people I've talked to in this scenario, the bosses are older white dudes who don't really have a good argument against WFH other than "we've always done it this way."

Update - my dad's boss was overridden; their public university they work for has shut down entirely for the rest of the school year and all employees are mandated WFH. Glad to see that even if he couldn't be convinced those above him weren't screwing around.

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2020, 08:14:12 AM »

On March 23 the Michigan governor mandated a stay at home order to begin effective on March 24.  All non-essential business was supposed to be shut down.  My employer apparently has some defense contracts, that makes them essential, and by extension every business we deal with is also essential.  There has been absolutely no scaling back or scaling down of any kind, even on the non defense contract stuff.  Apparently if you can deem your business as essential then you've discovered a loophole to continue operating at 100% capacity.  This appears to be a problem state wide with many business flagrantly disregarding the order to stay open: tree trimming and landscaping, cell phone retailers, the entirety of home improvement stores (I understand this is essential, but is it essential to keep selling paint and other stuff that is clearly not essential?). 

Our work implemented a check in procedure before an employee is supposed to enter any building on site.  Basically they ask if you have symptoms, or been in contact with anyone that has, or if you've been on a airplane in the last 14 days. 

I've begun wearing a homemade t-shirt mask to cover my face on recommendation from the CDC.  Most other people are not.  I asked management about implementing a site wide requirement for masks given the new evidence to suggest it can reduce transmission and the fact that CDC is recommending it, but I've gotten no response.   In the meantime I have gotten multiple responses about some people, including me, not completing the check in procedure.  My response was that they were stationed at the door for several days, but the last 3 days have not been stationed. I was specifically told all workers in building 4 are to check in at that door.  I don't feel like walking all over the plant trying to find the person responsible and "checking myself in", so I asked if we could move the check in to a virtual check in instead of a face-to-face check in that potentially exposes us all.  No, we must go to the will call area and check in face to face.  I really don't understand why the check in can't be virtual and must be face-to-face since the person checking us in is just a regular employee with no medical training.  What advantage does the face-to-face encounter offer if I am answering the exact same questions?  I guess the idea is that you can easily lie over email, but it will be harder to hide your coughing or symptoms during a face-to-face meeting, but it's also going to be hard to hide your symptoms regardless - people are going to notice someone being sick at work.  Mostly I think it's a "cover your ass" policy so that when people start getting sick they can point to a pile of paperwork and say "we did the check in as required by the county orders".

As of yesterday Detroit had 5,023 confirmed cases and 193 deaths.  Detroit city and Wayne county (the county Detroit is in) are counted separately; Wayne county had 3,247 cases and 153 deaths.  The adjacent Oakland county (where I live) had 3,380 cases and 185 deaths.  Those 3 regions have the highest case and death load in all of michigan, followed by Macomb county (which borders both of the other counties, and I live less than 1 mile from).


OtherJen

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2020, 08:35:03 AM »
Yep. Here in Wayne county, the Dearborn city council president finally announced that city police would start ticketing and fining people who are congregating and providing non-essential business services. The Dearborn Heights ordinance manager has told residents to stop trying to hire landscapers and is waiving citations for unkept yards.

I really wish there had been more strict enforcement early on. It would have reduced the load on the Beaumont and Henry Ford health systems.

lhamo

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2020, 08:41:06 AM »
If someone is on quarantine, or not feeling well, our company has specifically barred the use of vacation time.  You must use sick time, and if you run out of sick time you must file for unemployment or take unpaid time.  They seem extremely worried about having to pay employees who aren't working, which I get from a business standpoint, you can't realistically pay your entire workforce to stay home for 3 months because you'll bankrupt the company, but the entire tone seemed so cavalier. 

What is the logic about not letting people use their vacation time?  For most companies, unpaid vacation time is a significant liability -- I would think it would be in their interests to get that off the books sooner rather than later.


frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2020, 09:00:25 AM »
If someone is on quarantine, or not feeling well, our company has specifically barred the use of vacation time.  You must use sick time, and if you run out of sick time you must file for unemployment or take unpaid time.  They seem extremely worried about having to pay employees who aren't working, which I get from a business standpoint, you can't realistically pay your entire workforce to stay home for 3 months because you'll bankrupt the company, but the entire tone seemed so cavalier. 

What is the logic about not letting people use their vacation time?  For most companies, unpaid vacation time is a significant liability -- I would think it would be in their interests to get that off the books sooner rather than later.

I have no idea.  It doesn't seem to make any sense to me and I agree with you.  They have earned, and are entitled to, that vacation time so I don't understand not allowing them to use it.  I would understand them discouraging everyone from just using up their entire allotment of vacation time immediately, but not outright barring people from using it. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2020, 09:13:31 AM »
Yep. Here in Wayne county, the Dearborn city council president finally announced that city police would start ticketing and fining people who are congregating and providing non-essential business services. The Dearborn Heights ordinance manager has told residents to stop trying to hire landscapers and is waiving citations for unkept yards.

I really wish there had been more strict enforcement early on. It would have reduced the load on the Beaumont and Henry Ford health systems.

While it seems 90%+ of the people are actually following orders and staying at home, there is still an alarming amount of activity going on.  I know I've posted this in other threads, but the whole "essential" business thing is a fucking joke.   Damn near everything qualifies as "essential" even things that are clearly not.  Yeah tree trimmers that are needed to clear some trees out and clean up a  tree that fell on power lines are clearly essential, as are the workers that work on the power lines and generate the power.  But that doesn't mean that all tree trimming services are essential and get to remain open, yet I am seeing tree trimming services still working on things that are clearly cosmetic and not essential.

Do people need to purchase plumbing and electrical supplies from home improvement stores? Absolutely.  Do they need to be purchasing paint and flooring? Absolutely not. 

I feel like there needs to be more of a distinction in what is actually essential, and it's not a simple binary essential/non-essential.  Food production chains, medical supply chains, and healthcare facilities are essential.  Is environmental consulting essential?  If the economy is "locked down" for 6 months, then yes they probably are essential and will be needed in some capacity.  If everything is only locked down for 1 month, then are the environmental consultants really essential and needed in full capacity?  Likewise are dry cleaners really essential?  People can't go 2 weeks without dry cleaning?

This half assed approach is going to just drag things out longer. 

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2020, 09:24:52 AM »
Specifically to this point here, I've had the exact same thoughts here in PA. We're far less hard-hit than SE MI, but I still really feel for anyone living in the area, as I grew up in Plymouth and my parents still live there.

It's insane to see all the various construction vehicles constantly out on the road. There's a private campground on my way to work that's building a damn mini golf course and new campsites - like hell that's essential. I also see plenty of lawn services doing unnecessary shit. Do you really need mulch right now? No. Same with new residential construction, consulting, etc.

I think the other thing that grinds my gears right now is the number of 20-40 year old dudes out driving around solo going to who knows where. I get there's a bit of a double standard as I'm smack in the middle of that category, and on days I have to go to work, I'm alone in the car. But, I still see tons of guys driving various places in the middle of the day definitely not wearing work clothes. Where the hell are all these guys going?

I mean, I get that a lot of the people out driving around and working are afraid of lowing their income - I don't necessarily envy the position of those who, if the landscaping company they work for stops operating, will lose all income - same for other industries, but it's just frustrating to see people ignoring or downplaying the current situation because they believe their industry is necessary.

SunnyDays

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2020, 09:33:39 AM »
Even here in Canada, where the federal gov't is providing relief for lost income, there are way too many businesses deemed essential.  Just got an email from my lawn company, that sprays for weeds and fertilizes, that they are "essential."  In a province that no longer allows weed spraying on public property.  But the greenhouse that sells veggies to plant is not essential.  (Because, you know, there are no shortages at the grocery stores, right?)  Traffic is definitely down in my city, but not as much as one would think, or hope.  I'm staying home for months and months ......

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2020, 09:43:15 AM »
I am definitely concerned that I won't be able to get my gardening supplies and put in a garden this year until it's way too late.  My plants need to get in the ground in early May, which means some things need to have been started at this point like tomatoes. 

I'm under no illusion that my tiny garden is going to be able to support my family in the event of food shortages, but I'm hoping it could provide at least something to us which would help alleviate the burden on the food supply chain. 

I don't know how the whole gardening supply and "essential/non-essential" thing is going to pan out.  If the cell phone store 4 below can remain open and selling cell phone accessories then I should be able to buy a damn tomato plant to feed my family. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2020, 11:44:46 AM »
Just had a manager's meeting.  Someone from our plant has tested positive.  They assured us that this person (who can't be named) took a leave of absence out of fear/caution before they were sick at least 14 days prior to being diagnosed.  So because of the 14+ day window between them being in contact with anyone here and their positive diagnosis, we aren't required to shut down or sanitize anything, but they are required to let us know. 

And now we play the waiting game until an active employee tests positive. 

Loads of people not wearing masks, not staying 6+ feet away from each other, and some of them are openly touching their faces.  No one appears sick yet, but I feel like this might end badly.

SunnyDays

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 12:40:03 PM »
Why do you need to get your plants in by early May?  Seems way too early for Michigan.  I’m in southern Canada and don’t plant until late May/early June.  The soil is just too cold before that so the seeds just sit there and don’t germinate.
I buy my seeds at grocery stores and hardware stores and they have been available since January.
I found out that a couple of local greenhouses will let you order and pick up but not actually come into the centres, so you could contact the ones near you and see if you can make similar arrangements.

OtherJen

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 12:41:37 PM »
Why do you need to get your plants in by early May?  Seems way too early for Michigan.  I’m in southern Canada and don’t plant until late May/early June.  The soil is just too cold before that so the seeds just sit there and don’t germinate.
I buy my seeds at grocery stores and hardware stores and they have been available since January.
I found out that a couple of local greenhouses will let you order and pick up but not actually come into the centres, so you could contact the ones near you and see if you can make similar arrangements.

Mother's day weekend is the recommended planting time for Metro Detroit.

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 01:19:04 PM »
I always try to get my stuff in the ground by mother's day.   Tomatoes and pepper need a long time to grow big and mature, and I've always had significantly more success putting healthy plants in the ground as opposed to seeds.  I have done tomatoes and peppers from seeds, but they need to be planted indoors at least a month before planting them.  They will grow and be fruitful if started from seeds outdoors, but the difference between a healthy nursery plant going in the ground in early May vs starting seeds directly in the ground around the same time is a huge difference.  If I wait much past mother's day to purchase nursery plants the selection gets slimmer and slimmer. 

I also don't have all the supplies to start all my plants indoors at the moment.  I do have some seeds, and most of what I plant can be done directly in ground from seed (squash, cucumber, lettuce, herbs). 

Cranky

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 01:37:36 PM »
So, having heard that Lowe's/Home Depot make you go inside to pick up orders, I looked at the nicer regional gardening store near my house and found that they had curbside pickup that included plants. I got potting soil and some pansies and lettuce starts yesterday, and it really was a whole lot better done than grocery pick up has been. So anything else I want gardening-wise is coming from there.

projekt

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2020, 10:49:03 AM »
My employees asked to stay home, even though we're essential, so we are operating at very reduced hours and alternating crews.  Many of the other clinics in the area are still running full hours. I hope they don't have any issues. Health insurance isn't very good in our industry.

Dicey

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2020, 11:06:47 AM »
@frugalnacho, the CDC is saying not to use t-shirt masks, because they're ineffective. There are tons of tutorials on line for making better masks if you can't get hold of an N95 mask. We don't want anything to happen to you just because your employer is being a dick.

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2020, 01:15:35 PM »
I realize that it's ineffective to prevent me from contracting the virus, but the CDC is recommending everyone where a cloth mask in public to prevent them from spreading it:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

We don't deal with the public, but there are enough people in the plant that I consider it a public place.  I am avoiding dealing with most people and just staying in the lab and my office, but I am wearing my cloth mask when I do have to walk around just in case I'm asymptomatic or presymptomatic.  I wish my employer would enforce that everyone do the same.  All it's going to take is one person getting infected and we are going to have an outbreak.

We don't have enough n95 masks because no one does and you can't buy any. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2020, 07:36:10 AM »
We now officially have our first active case at the plant.   They can't tell us who it is, or even what area they worked in.  They've decontaminated the area and anyone who was in contact with that person has been notified and told to wear a mask for 14 days.  Supposedly me and everyone in the lab is in the clear and don't have to wear masks, but I'm not really sure how they made that determination since the lab guys walk all over the plant.  I also walk all over the plant.  I'm about to perform my inspections which means I'm going to handle every fire extinguisher, eye wash, and shower in the entire facility.  I'm also going to inspect all the hazardous waste throughout the facility.  I'm not going to be "dealing with" anyone while I do that, but I'm going to for sure be within 6 feet of numerous people and will touch a lot of surfaces. 


I found a package of n95 masks in my basement from a home renovation project several years ago and I'm going to wear one while at work.  I don't have enough to treat them as disposable, but I have enough that I can rotate them out daily and allow them to sit for a week after use.  I'm also going to consider my office a clean zone since I'm the only one in it and not wear it while inside my office, which is going to be about 6-7 hours of each day.  I am also planning to eat my lunch in my office since it's probably the cleanest location.

 

GuitarStv

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2020, 07:40:28 AM »
Those N95 masks are super uncomfortable to wear for extended periods of time.  My face is usually raw and red after wearing one for 3-4 hours.  You might want to look into some kind of cream or lubricant for your face if wearing them all day long.

frugalnacho

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2020, 07:51:09 AM »
I won't wear it all day long, that's too much.  I'm planning to only wear it when leaving my office.  So I'll consolidate all the things I need to do in the plant and wear it while walking around.  When I get back to my personal office I'll doff it and stay inside my office, and don it again when I leave. 

I don't really understand the secrecy around the infection.  Yeah I know, hippa, but this doesn't seem like it should be some private, sensitive medical issue.  This isn't like announcing your embarrassing anal fissures to the world or something, it's a highly infectious disease you get from simply existing in close proximity to other people.  If I get it I'm sure the company will still abide by hippa and will inform all my coworkers, but won't be able to mention me by name, but I'll be contacting all my coworkers and shouting it from the rooftops.

the_fixer

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2020, 11:36:27 AM »
We now officially have our first active case at the plant.   They can't tell us who it is, or even what area they worked in.  They've decontaminated the area and anyone who was in contact with that person has been notified and told to wear a mask for 14 days.  Supposedly me and everyone in the lab is in the clear and don't have to wear masks, but I'm not really sure how they made that determination since the lab guys walk all over the plant.  I also walk all over the plant.  I'm about to perform my inspections which means I'm going to handle every fire extinguisher, eye wash, and shower in the entire facility.  I'm also going to inspect all the hazardous waste throughout the facility.  I'm not going to be "dealing with" anyone while I do that, but I'm going to for sure be within 6 feet of numerous people and will touch a lot of surfaces. 

We had a similar situation at my work, one of the people from my team got it and ended up in the hospital, I work at a different location so I was not informed of a quarantine.

However when I heard that my co-worker (co-workers wife said it was ok to tell people in our team so we could send well wishes) was in the hospital and tested positive I pointed out to my boss that the day before he went into the hospital I and another co-worker took some stuff down to his location and helped him.

We were added to the quarantine a full week after everyone else as they did not realize how much people move around.

This is the 2nd time I have been quarantined first time was like 9 days after the person tested positive and the 2nd time was about a week after. In the mean time I I had no idea and was going around business as usual.

I feel for you, we all expect / hope that management and the company would do the right thing but in reality they have no idea what they are doing so all you can do is take care of yourself.


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economista

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Re: Employer denial of coronavirus pandemic
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2020, 12:54:32 PM »
In my office we had two people test positive. We had already moved to mostly teleworking, but the telework started on Monday and they tested positive on Wednesday so they were both likely contagious for the week prior. Lots of people on my team wanted to know who it was but they weren't disclosing it due to HIPPA. Instead they just said everyone should assume they were in contact with the people because we are in an open office and we all work closely on interdisciplinary teams. It was frustrating though because we would all like to know if we sat next to, had a meeting with, ate lunch with, etc one of the people who was sick. That week before I sat next to a woman in 2 all day trainings who was coughing constantly and drinking cough syrup at the table until the facilitator sent her home on the second day. I was worried that she was one of them. That was back at the beginning of March though, so luckily we are all out of the "potential exposure" waiting period.