Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!

[maizefolk]

Always "interesting" to see how different communities react to the idea of FIRE...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26543527

(Discussion on "6 years after FI and early retirement" (livingafi.com) aka Dr. Doom)

Thanks for posting this neo von retorch. I agree, it was fascinating to read the perception and discussion the same article prompted in a different community with different priors.

[Metalcat]

There's a lot of judgment about keeping up with the Joneses, but it's understandable to want to stay connected to the Joneses.  When you take on a lifestyle and a set of values that is completely alien to so many of the people you know, it's going to make it harder to connect.  Most of the people who post here are already just used to going against the grain, but that doesn't make it easy.

Fortunately or unfortunately our social circle includes a lot of "Joneses"  with high incomes and commensurate spending....luxury cars, stay at home wives who go our to lunch multiple times a week and shopping is a hobby.   They go out to high end dinners regularly as well.   Always getting new home improvements (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k not to mention bathrooms, patios, etc) but I digress.  Anyway  they are good fun people and our kids are friends with their kids (who also get best of everything) but we don't keep up (by design) but it still can have an effect on us, even me who doesn't care barely at all but my wife does to some extent and I care if she is feeling it.   

Money is not endless and all that would certainly require way more,  but we do participate in some of the outings (not all of them and nor would I want too) and accept that we drive older cars and aren't updating everything all the time (BTW when did kitchens become disposable?).   It helps that we are probably somewhere between FIRE and Fat FIRE (whatever that means)

People here do regularly dismiss these circumstances such as just move or get new friends or tell DW to suck it up or whatever....and that is not how life works, Sure it can sometimes but there are tradeoffs to everything.

Being different is always a challenge, and that shouldn't be underestimated, and people who struggle with it shouldn't be belittled, but it's a matter of judging which challenge is more worthwhile: adjusting to being different or earning and spending enough to try and keep up. Both paths can be difficult or easy, depending on the individual person, how easily they adjust to being different vs how easy it is for them to make enough money to keep up with their peers.

As a couple, this is where excellent communication skills come in, it's so important to be aligned in terms of priorities. If someone is truly invested in understanding their partner's needs, this kind of thing won't come as a surprise.

What stands out in Doom's post though is that he said his wife wanted *him* to go back to work so that she could spend more to fit in better with the lifestyles she envied, and she expressed that she didn't want to be with someone with serious health issues. To me, this indicates that she was already pretty checked out of her responsibilities in the marriage. Once a person starts to hold their partner responsible for their general happiness, that person isn't totally committed to their marriage. There's something off that they are avoiding dealing with, and this conflict was just the way it was manifesting.

I'm willing to bet that had he agreed to go back to work to inflate her lifestyle, she would still not have found the peace and happiness in her life that she was feeling was missing.

This doesn't sound like a story of a woman who was perfectly happy and content with her life until she and her partner retired and then kitchen-reno and luxury SUV envy suddenly single handedly destroyed her commitment to her otherwise happy and healthy marriage.

Point being, I wouldn't put too much weight into her "keeping up with the Joneses" urges compared to the countless other giant relationship red flags in the story, and that's based on a very limited, very one sided account. And even then, it's glaringly obvious that there was a lot going on in terms of individual emotional struggles as well as marital dynamics, well beyond what any of us has glean as very limited observers.

People are complicated, and so are the cumulative motivations behind their actions.

It's pretty safe to say though that no loving marriage ever ended solely over one partner suddenly wanting fancier crap.

[Mrs. Healthywealth]

A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.

Hope most who want to FIRE take risk into account when creating their plan. It's good to ask if you will have enough to cover a nursing home, death of spouse, loss of job, or becoming incapacitated. Everyone needs to decide on their own level of risk retention and what insurance they might need in order to cover the risk.

Agree it's sobering what he wrote, for me it wasn't the financial issues that were sobering, it's how quickly health, relationships, etc can change. If you have a solid plan and some built in flexibility, there is tons of hope.

When I met with our financial planner a few weeks ago, I asked, show me the worst worst case scenario...that allows me to breath better since my mind automatically goes to homelessness when that's not the reality.

[GuitarStv]

It's pretty safe to say though that no loving marriage ever ended solely over one partner suddenly wanting fancier crap.

No loving marriage includes secretly having sex with people other than your partner either.  There were multiple signs of problems.

[Metalcat]

It's pretty safe to say though that no loving marriage ever ended solely over one partner suddenly wanting fancier crap.

No loving marriage includes secretly having sex with people other than your partner either.  There were multiple signs of problems.

Exactly.

[Watchmaker]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

[mathlete]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

[mathlete]

This is a good reminder that bloggers are not ubermensch. They're just people with opinions. FIRE bloggers are just people with opinions who have also managed to live on median income spending while making >> median income with nerdy software jobs.

Personal struggles are not an indictment against them. Your inability to measure up to the image they present is not an indictment against you. People are people.

[Watchmaker]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

That joke is un-brie-lievably bad.

[MissNancyPryor]

I followed Dr. Doom the whole way and got inspiration from his blog.  I just happened to stumble on this recent entry today and came over here to see who was chatting it up, not surprised to find a thread. 

I am rooting for you Doomie.  I am sorry for the many lies you had to endure before the truth came out with the cheating wife and I am glad you hit the exits and didn't long suffer the parade of bullshit that cheaters insist on dumping behind them.  The fact she was not on board with even the potential of having to be a caretaker for your condition at some point is telling.   

Cheers to you and Ms. Librarian for a happy future.   

[tooqk4u22]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

That joke is un-brie-lievably bad.

Frigging Muenster size fingers. 

[dougules]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

That joke is un-brie-lievably bad.

Frigging Muenster size fingers.

I think I've got a ques'o dementia.  I stared at "kit cheese" for the longest time before I realized it was kitchen.  Autocarrot strikes again. 

[Telecaster]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

As along you get fumunda debt first. 

[robartsd]

Adding to the list of FI bloggers with relationship status.

Justin (RootOfGood): still married

[Psychstache]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

As along you get fumunda debt first.

I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.

[tooqk4u22]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

As along you get fumunda debt first.

I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.

It makes me feel Bleu to be the reason it went off topic, I guess I will hunker down in my Cottage until it passes (unfortunately with cheese it takes a while).

[314159]

Always "interesting" to see how different communities react to the idea of FIRE...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26543527

(Discussion on "6 years after FI and early retirement" (livingafi.com) aka Dr. Doom)

I came across that discussion yesterday, thanks for posting it so I can complain about the comments.
Retirement police: check
You can't be frugal after your twenties: check
"Living in a big city means we can't retire early": check
You can't be fulfilled and motivated when retired: check
"99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time": check
"He’s a fool limiting himself to 4% withdrawals": check
"Pretty suspicious how all these so-called FIREd bloggers earn money from their blogs": check
Apparent belief* that paid employment is the best possible way to spend most of your waking hours: check

*and associated extreme lack of creativity: really, the best way you can think to spend your life is a job

Then you do have some folks talking about how all these FIRE people are obsessed with quitting when really you just need balance, something in your life to center on other than work. They don't realize that the FIRE community already discusses this round the clock! (Often concluding that since work needn't be the center of your life, and you don't need to work cause you have a stash...you don't need to work, period.)

Not to mention all the people hating on the blog post author. E.g. because of his alleged contempt for "a normal lifestyle", when, as Malcat pointed out, his wife wanted him to go back to work so she could increase her spending / avoid dealing with his chronic illness.

Ok, rant over. Back to cheese puns.

EDIT: The commenters in the link are so grating, I'm feta up.

[Trifle]

Nice summary @314159 ^ -- those comments were super annoying.  Such a skewed, negative view of FIRE.

[RWD]

"Pretty suspicious how all these so-called FIREd bloggers earn money from their blogs": check

Never mind that Dr Doom is one of the few FIRE bloggers that hasn't monetized his blog...

[2sk22]

I came across that discussion yesterday, thanks for posting it so I can complain about the comments.
Retirement police: check
You can't be frugal after your twenties: check
"Living in a big city means we can't retire early": check
You can't be fulfilled and motivated when retired: check
"99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time": check
"He’s a fool limiting himself to 4% withdrawals": check
"Pretty suspicious how all these so-called FIREd bloggers earn money from their blogs": check
Apparent belief* that paid employment is the best possible way to spend most of your waking hours: check

*and associated extreme lack of creativity: really, the best way you can think to spend your life is a job

Then you do have some folks talking about how all these FIRE people are obsessed with quitting when really you just need balance, something in your life to center on other than work. They don't realize that the FIRE community already discusses this round the clock! (Often concluding that since work needn't be the center of your life, and you don't need to work cause you have a stash...you don't need to work, period.)

Not to mention all the people hating on the blog post author. E.g. because of his alleged contempt for "a normal lifestyle", when, as Malcat pointed out, his wife wanted him to go back to work so she could increase her spending / avoid dealing with his chronic illness.

Ok, rant over. Back to cheese puns.

EDIT: The commenters in the link are so grating, I'm feta up.

Having worked in VC funded tech startups, I have had an account on Hacker News since it launched so I know that crowd extremely well. I have to confess that I was a lot like these obnoxious commentators on HN myself until about five years ago. I could not imagine retiring early - it seemed like a sign that you were conceding defeat. Now that I'm retired, I don't hang out on HN quite as much as I used to for my own sanity :-)

[GuitarStv]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

As along you get fumunda debt first.

I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.

It makes me feel Bleu to be the reason it went off topic, I guess I will hunker down in my Cottage until it passes (unfortunately with cheese it takes a while).

You guys are shredding it! I... mus-a-really try to keep up.

I cammembert when this thread was about an FI blog post . . .

[Roots&Wings]

... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...

I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)

I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.

As along you get fumunda debt first.

I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.

It makes me feel Bleu to be the reason it went off topic, I guess I will hunker down in my Cottage until it passes (unfortunately with cheese it takes a while).

You guys are shredding it! I... mus-a-really try to keep up.

I cammembert when this thread was about an FI blog post . . .

In the end, Dr. D fondu the silver lining, made cream out of sour milk. At least his ex didn't string him along too long, and he's stilton the right path:

I have meaning and love in my life — daily meaning, meaning that’s easy to define and pays off constantly — and it has nothing to do with employment and money. 

It’s been said a billion times that money doesn’t make you happy. People do. Connections and relationships do. Purpose helps, too.

This year makes me a believer in all of the above. 100%.  If that’s cheesy, so be it — I’m the Mayor of Cheese.

[MissNancyPryor]

Always "interesting" to see how different communities react to the idea of FIRE...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26543527

(Discussion on "6 years after FI and early retirement" (livingafi.com) aka Dr. Doom)

I came across that discussion yesterday, thanks for posting it so I can complain about the comments.

*and associated extreme lack of creativity: really, the best way you can think to spend your life is a job

Then you do have some folks talking about how all these FIRE people are obsessed with quitting when really you just need balance, something in your life to center on other than work. They don't realize that the FIRE community already discusses this round the clock! (Often concluding that since work needn't be the center of your life, and you don't need to work cause you have a stash...you don't need to work, period.)

Never forget that the harshest critics of FIRE are the ones doing less, not more.  There are lots of whiny complainypants who love to throw stones and root for what they see as an RE "failure" but they don't have the balls to even try it.  Much easier to sit smugly and declare it simply can't be done and remain as The Guardians of the cubicle sheeple.  Losers.   

What a story Dr. Doom is writing.  He noted that creative writing courses were not going well and his other attempts were unfulfilling but in fact he has written a compelling story in the blog and could spend his time knitting it together into a book.  It has a valuable message, especially if it ends with his focus on a new direction with a better partner and eventual early retirement at, say, 50.  A comical treatment of it would even make a great movie, I imagine dream sequences of Dr. Doom and Cthuluh interspersed as he navigates the tech support jobs, kind of like his own personal Office Space.             

[LightTripper]

That would be a great story.  It could be like a modern day (less 1970s values) Reginald Perrin.

[Watchmaker]

That would be a great story.  It could be like a modern day (less 1970s values) Reginald Perrin.

But hopefully not like the quite bad 2009 remake Reggie Perrin.

[LightTripper]

I didn't realise that somebody has remade it!  That sounds like a tricky thing to do, unless you change it enough to be rather unrecognisable as RP.

The original was very much a product of its time (a very 1970s style midlife crisis, with lots of pretty sexist gags about fancying your secretary) - although in many ways a polar opposite of most of the sitcoms of the time in terms of the values and critique of society.  I suppose what made me think of it in relation to Doom/FIRE is that Reggie is outwardly very successful and has all the trappings of a comfortable and wealthy life, but is still unsatisfied and only finds happiness (possibly not permanent?) after he jacks it all in and eventually becomes a pig farmer I think?  The disdain he has for his work and the value system he feels trapped in but has no respect for had some resonance with Doom's pre-FIRE posts about the "claws" of his employer digging into him, I thought.

[Watchmaker]

I didn't realise that somebody has remade it!  That sounds like a tricky thing to do, unless you change it enough to be rather unrecognisable as RP.

The original was very much a product of its time (a very 1970s style midlife crisis, with lots of pretty sexist gags about fancying your secretary) - although in many ways a polar opposite of most of the sitcoms of the time in terms of the values and critique of society.

Unfortunately the remake was very much a product of the 1970's as well, with the same sexists gags (though now about fancying a coworker rather than subordinate, so...progress?).

I have always been a big fan of 1970's Britain's other alternative lifestyle sitcom: The Good Life. Good viewing for all mustachians.

[LightTripper]

Ah yes - love the Good Life! 

Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!

[cerat0n1a]

Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!

It's fairly inoffensive, but mildly sexist in a 70s way - both of the women were housewives, for example. Relatively little innuendo too - there is an often mentioned, but never seen character called Miss Mountshaft, but not much more than that.

[Watchmaker]

Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!

It's fairly inoffensive, but mildly sexist in a 70s way - both of the women were housewives, for example. Relatively little innuendo too - there is an often mentioned, but never seen character called Miss Mountshaft, but not much more than that.

I think there's a bit more innuendo than that--there's pretty strong swingers vibes between the two couples.

And Tom Good does have a couple of racist lines that I wish they'd edit out in the future--one impression of Confucius and one line that makes reference to minstrel shows. Both are just passing moments that aren't instrumental to the show or the character so I can still enjoy the show, but I do cringe pretty badly when I get to either of those lines.

But Felicity Kendal was (and is) perfect.

[Zamboni]

ptf and so I can find this later when I have more time to read

[Watchmaker]

Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!

It's fairly inoffensive, but mildly sexist in a 70s way - both of the women were housewives, for example. Relatively little innuendo too - there is an often mentioned, but never seen character called Miss Mountshaft, but not much more than that.

What surprised me on rewatching this series was how they failed at pretty much everything they did. I had happy memories of them stepping outside the norm to live a self sufficient life. In fact they inspired some of my life choices (urban farm/chickens).  But watching again I was astonished to realize the writers were mining misfortunes for humor.

I don't see them as failing, but persevering. Think of all the implications the show makes: It ran for four years (I think) and they were pretty much broke in the 2nd or 3rd episode, yet they are still at it years later. Yes, we've seen them struggle, we've seen many of Tom's daydreams crash to earth, but they continue to manage all the same. I think it teaches a good lesson in grit. 

Sorry for the sidetrack OP, I'll try to let the thread get back on track.

[Runrooster]

I just read the post yesterday, and this thread today.  Digesting it.
I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if they'd had kids.  Obviously, it would have postponed FIRE but having that focus of attention and hard work can be fulfilling or maybe draining.
I left a skeptical comment on his blog about 6 months before he pulled the plug, saying that I didn't think not working was very satisfying.  I should have pointed out that I meant that for myself personally.  Still, I don't find work itself fulfilling.  I went to top schools for theoretical math and while it was intellectually challenging and stressful, wasn't something I could do in the workaholic way it demanded.  Subsequent careers have been less demanding and my current barista-fire jobs (tax preparer, medical billing) are repetitious and tedious but not quite to the point of data entry.

My point is that I don't spend evenings complaining about my job because it's too petty to complain about.  Complaining implies caring and engagement at some level.  I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures.  He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them.  She acts like he's falling down on the job.  She complains, out loud, over every signature.  How can you care that much?  Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down.  After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it?  She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind.  She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind.  In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am.  Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too?  I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level. 

[robartsd]

I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures.  He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them.  She acts like he's falling down on the job.  She complains, out loud, over every signature.  How can you care that much?  Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down.  After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it?  She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind.  She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind.  In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am.  Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too?  I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level.

Why is she behind? Sounds like it is because she is given more workload than she can handle. She might be shooting herself in the foot by doing unpaid overtime trying to keep up (instead of letting the work falling behind become a problem for management - they need to allocate sufficient resources for the work to get done). Since she is behind, every little thing that is someone else's job that doesn't get done and adds to her workload is a stressor.

[chevy1956]

I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures.  He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them.  She acts like he's falling down on the job.  She complains, out loud, over every signature.  How can you care that much?  Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down.  After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it?  She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind.  She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind.  In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am.  Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too?  I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level.

Why is she behind? Sounds like it is because she is given more workload than she can handle. She might be shooting herself in the foot by doing unpaid overtime trying to keep up (instead of letting the work falling behind become a problem for management - they need to allocate sufficient resources for the work to get done). Since she is behind, every little thing that is someone else's job that doesn't get done and adds to her workload is a stressor.

You can handle this though via refusing to do the work. I used to get in about 9 and leave any time between 3 and 4. I was questioned about it. It was a joke to a bunch of people. I just didn't care. I worked on projects and there were times the stress was horrible. I learnt to not care about the job and then I changed my behavior. At some point I realized if work wasn't getting done it wasn't my problem.

There are ways to handle work. The best being not working or at least it's the best for me. I think Doom also feels that way. Work is about getting money to pay bills. When it's not required then don't do it. The best way to fast track not working is spending less and earning more however the spending less to me is more important but the problem is you have to be comfortable spending less over the course of your retirement.

[Fomerly known as something]

I find it interesting that it appears Dr. Doom had to convince his former wife into FIRE.  Maybe in the end, she wasn’t convinced.  It sounds like they ultimately after a sabbatical which worked she wasn’t ready for the FIRE idea that was the reality.  Cheating aside, they ended up with fundamentally different goals neither of which were wrong.  (The cheating was)

[Runrooster]

I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures.  He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them.  She acts like he's falling down on the job.  She complains, out loud, over every signature.  How can you care that much?  Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down.  After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it?  She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind.  She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind.  In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am.  Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too?  I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level.

Why is she behind? Sounds like it is because she is given more workload than she can handle. She might be shooting herself in the foot by doing unpaid overtime trying to keep up (instead of letting the work falling behind become a problem for management - they need to allocate sufficient resources for the work to get done). Since she is behind, every little thing that is someone else's job that doesn't get done and adds to her workload is a stressor.

To be honest, outside of 2 weeks when they cut our hours due to the pandemic, I have no idea why she was behind enough to stress about it.  I have less experience and 30% larger workload, and a fairly similar, minimal error rate. She did admit to a tendency to overthink things, which is another irritation altogether. Sometimes we'd get behind for obvious reasons - someone takes a few hours off or even a full day and they expect us to make up the time somewhere.  Which, realistically, we do, even without working through lunch (just a bad idea, in my view) or giving unpaid, unknown by management, overtime.  I've worked with her for more than a year and she did stop doing the overtime once management sent out notices about it, and the work still gets done.  And she still complains about every freaking signature, demo, regardless of how behind she isn't.  Well she stopped complaining about 3 demos when I showed her my 8.  My point remains, that while I take the job seriously, she takes it almost personally.  She's invested in it at a totally different level and doesn't understand the doctors and myself who see it as "paperwork", much less important than seeing patients.  Money matters, no one's saying it doesn't, but its not more important than the patients.

ETA: When I complained to my Mom, her theory was that my coworker complains as a form of bonding, just something to talk about. Which seems possible, but backfired if so.

The other thing is that she complains almost as much about her own minor errors.  I try to be sympathetic - okay you flubbed, we all do - but she gets overwrought about it.

[Cassie]

Life is what happens when you are making other plans. I wish Dr. Doom all the best in his new life!

[norajean]

Never heard of Doom before but it seems like his marriage was doomed long ago.  It's too bad it took them so long to figure things out but fantastic there are no kids involved.  Now everyone can move on happily, working. I think for most people early retirement is not really as feasible as people think it is.  It sounds good and easy once the finances are in place but it can be very difficult.  The only people I know who retired successfully before age 50 were either already rich and working for fun their whole lives or launched into non-paid work which was at least as busy and stressful as a real job.  The rest all ended up back at work and/or divorced.   You can only build so many birdhouses!

[chevy1956]

The rest all ended up back at work and/or divorced.   You can only build so many birdhouses!

I think lots of people end up divorced. I wouldn't blame ER for that.

As for building birdhouses. I'm just retired and personally I'm not struggling with stuff to do. I'm pretty lazy though.

I'm under 50, retired and married. Divorce would really impact our finances so I also have a vested interest in going against the trend that you can see.

[arebelspy]

Dr. Doom is the best fire blogger of all time.

I loved seeing the update, and while it was painful to read personally (having gotten divorced myself recently) and I felt for him, I'm glad to hear he's in a happy place now.

[chevy1956]

Dr. Doom is the best fire blogger of all time.

I loved seeing the update, and while it was painful to read personally (having gotten divorced myself recently) and I felt for him, I'm glad to hear he's in a happy place now.

Sorry to hear about the divorce. That really sucks.

[TempusFugit]

I'm glad to see Doom's update but sorry for his troubles.  I very much enjoyed reading his blog when I found it a couple of years back and had wondered how it worked out for him.  I expected that he was in good financial shape given the market since he FIREd in 2015.  That seems to be the case, even under his new circumstances. 

I agree that his FIRE experience to date shouldn't be regarded by him or anyone else as any kind of failure.   I can't recall where I read the line recently but it was in the context of how we should want to rear our children, and to paraphrase it was that we don't want to raise our kids in a way that they never encounter any difficulties, but rather that we should want to raise them in such a way that they are equipped to handle life's inevitable difficulties.  Seems to me that FI/FIRE planning and preparation should be viewed in much the same way.  We can't really expect everything to go as planned or as expected, but we should endeavor to build a plan as a framework within which we can exercise flexibility to adapt to changing circumstances. 

While I have no opinion about the causes of someone else's specific relationship woes, it does seem like early FIRE does present some challenges both for married and single people as regards their current or future relationships. 

I have no idea what the percentage is of people who FIRE and then regret or rethink that choice and return to work or wish that they could return to work either for money or for purpose or just for something to fill the days, but it's probably pretty far from zero. 

If a couple FIRE together, it seems only reasonable to expect that rate of disenchantment to be almost double, in that at least one of the pair will discover that it isn't all they hoped or expected it would be.  Again, I have no opinion as to whether that was truly the issue faced my Mr. and Mrs. Doom.  I'm just talking about probabilities.  Two people is double the chance that at least someone isn't going to be happy with it. 

Speaking generically, not to Doom's particular situation:

A relationship is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, but if you add an imbalance of perceived work ethic / contribution / ease between the partners, that's got to make things harder.   This topic came up on the single mustachians thread a while back.  How can you go into a relationship with such an imbalance?  Might there be people for whom it is no issue? Sure. But once again to play the probabilities, that number is probably pretty small.  Seems really likely that one person is going to develop some resentments toward the other, whether it's the working person or the non-working person. 

If you were to present to me a couple, one of whom retired early and the other of whom decided to continue working, I would immediately discount (pretty heavily) the odds of them staying together.  One person going to work while the other lounged and played all the time, yet would inevitably benefit from the financial benefits of one party continuing to bring in an income just seems like a problem waiting to happen.  I'm sure there are couples that have done it successfully!  I get that.  I'm just saying that I can see how that would add a stress to a relationship for most people.  I wouldn't like being either party in that situation. One person will come to resent the one who doesn't have to work and the other would resent that they are made to feel guilty for not having to work, or feel constrained to not 'flaunt' their freedom by doing fun things without the partner. 

In the context of single folk who have already or almost reached FI status with any plan to RE, finding a partner who is either themselves in the same financial position or would be willing to put up with being in a relationship with someone who is in that position seems like a hard nut to crack. 

[Metalcat]

I'm glad to see Doom's update but sorry for his troubles.  I very much enjoyed reading his blog when I found it a couple of years back and had wondered how it worked out for him.  I expected that he was in good financial shape given the market since he FIREd in 2015.  That seems to be the case, even under his new circumstances. 

I agree that his FIRE experience to date shouldn't be regarded by him or anyone else as any kind of failure.   I can't recall where I read the line recently but it was in the context of how we should want to rear our children, and to paraphrase it was that we don't want to raise our kids in a way that they never encounter any difficulties, but rather that we should want to raise them in such a way that they are equipped to handle life's inevitable difficulties.  Seems to me that FI/FIRE planning and preparation should be viewed in much the same way.  We can't really expect everything to go as planned or as expected, but we should endeavor to build a plan as a framework within which we can exercise flexibility to adapt to changing circumstances. 

While I have no opinion about the causes of someone else's specific relationship woes, it does seem like early FIRE does present some challenges both for married and single people as regards their current or future relationships. 

I have no idea what the percentage is of people who FIRE and then regret or rethink that choice and return to work or wish that they could return to work either for money or for purpose or just for something to fill the days, but it's probably pretty far from zero. 

If a couple FIRE together, it seems only reasonable to expect that rate of disenchantment to be almost double, in that at least one of the pair will discover that it isn't all they hoped or expected it would be.  Again, I have no opinion as to whether that was truly the issue faced my Mr. and Mrs. Doom.  I'm just talking about probabilities.  Two people is double the chance that at least someone isn't going to be happy with it. 

Speaking generically, not to Doom's particular situation:

A relationship is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, but if you add an imbalance of perceived work ethic / contribution / ease between the partners, that's got to make things harder.   This topic came up on the single mustachians thread a while back.  How can you go into a relationship with such an imbalance?  Might there be people for whom it is no issue? Sure. But once again to play the probabilities, that number is probably pretty small.  Seems really likely that one person is going to develop some resentments toward the other, whether it's the working person or the non-working person. 

If you were to present to me a couple, one of whom retired early and the other of whom decided to continue working, I would immediately discount (pretty heavily) the odds of them staying together.  One person going to work while the other lounged and played all the time, yet would inevitably benefit from the financial benefits of one party continuing to bring in an income just seems like a problem waiting to happen.  I'm sure there are couples that have done it successfully!  I get that.  I'm just saying that I can see how that would add a stress to a relationship for most people.  I wouldn't like being either party in that situation. One person will come to resent the one who doesn't have to work and the other would resent that they are made to feel guilty for not having to work, or feel constrained to not 'flaunt' their freedom by doing fun things without the partner. 

In the context of single folk who have already or almost reached FI status with any plan to RE, finding a partner who is either themselves in the same financial position or would be willing to put up with being in a relationship with someone who is in that position seems like a hard nut to crack.

I'm honestly morbidly FASCINATED by this perspective.

A strong marriage should be able to withstand a hell of a lot more than one or more partners retiring because they're privileged enough to be able to afford to.

In a healthy marriage, these decisions would be made collaboratively, if one partner became unhappy, there would be constructive communication about it. I simply and utterly refuse to believe that having enough money to have more choices in life than to continue working can ever possibly damage a strong and healthy marriage. Create challenges? Of course, but all good marriages weather challenges.

Do I think FIRE has the capacity to catalyze the breakdown of a marriage? Sure, but if it does, then I think that's a marriage that would have been in trouble under any significant strain.

Perhaps I'm biased because in my marriage we've faced some serious shit (I literally can't walk right now), and I can't fathom a loving couple crumbling under much, much less difficult circumstances than we've faced, and our marriage has just become stronger through it.

Oh, and I retired because of my disability, but there are multiple high earning jobs I could do from home, but DH has pushed me to not work if I don't absolutely want to because he's happy to earn enough to support both of us. I felt internal pressure to keep earning, but he's really encouraged me to let that pressure go and only do what I will enjoy because he enjoys his job. Also, we both recognize that we're both much better partners now that we have less of a collective focus on work, and more bandwidth for each other. I'm,in particular, a much more present paryner now that my focus isn't so consumed with my demanding career. Basically, DH gets a way more fun wife, so why would he resent me not working???

We're basically leanFI as it is, and our FI planning over the past several years is what makes it SO EASY for us to be able to make these types of decisions.

So FI has made life so much easier, there's no resentment with one partner working, and our marriage has thrived through all of the very difficult challenges. I genuinely can't fathom a loving, supportive, trusting, respectful marriage working any other way.

[TempusFugit]

@Malcat perhaps I’m just someone with a dimmer view of human nature.  Also, I’ve never been married, so my opinions are, well, just that.

Maybe the difference is that I don't think there are that many deep trusting marriages and relationships.  It sounds like you’ve found one and thats great, but do you really think its that common?  If you had to wager, what percentage of couples who stay together are actually in strong and healthy relationships, and how many are just together because of financial, familial, or social expectations or just plain inertia?  I may be way off but I think its not most.  Add in factors such as age, as we are talking about early retirees, so maybe 30’s and 40’s, you know, prime divorce age, and I submit that it skews even more toward unstable relationships that will be less resilient when more stressors are added.

Of course, I only said that I think these situations (hypothetical) would add new stress and make it less likely that a relationship would survive. The strong and healthy ones would. 

I could be way off, and i guess I hope that I am.  I don't think of myself as cynical or pessimistic, I just think people are much more driven by impulses that we don't recognize even in ourselves.  Call it evolutionary or fallenness or whatever, I just think we should be clear eyed about how we are as a species.  We’re naturally selfish and we naturally place too much importance on how we think other people see us (which of course includes how our partners and families are perceived) even though the vast majority of other people don't spend very much time thinking about us at all because they are themselves preoccupied with themselves and how they think they are being perceived.   

[Metalcat]

@Malcat perhaps I’m just someone with a dimmer view of human nature.  Also, I’ve never been married, so my opinions are, well, just that.

Maybe the difference is that I don't think there are that many deep trusting marriages and relationships.  It sounds like you’ve found one and thats great, but do you really think its that common?  If you had to wager, what percentage of couples who stay together are actually in strong and healthy relationships, and how many are just together because of financial, familial, or social expectations or just plain inertia?  I may be way off but I think its not most.  Add in factors such as age, as we are talking about early retirees, so maybe 30’s and 40’s, you know, prime divorce age, and I submit that it skews even more toward unstable relationships that will be less resilient when more stressors are added.

Of course, I only said that I think these situations (hypothetical) would add new stress and make it less likely that a relationship would survive. The strong and healthy ones would. 

I could be way off, and i guess I hope that I am.  I don't think of myself as cynical or pessimistic, I just think people are much more driven by impulses that we don't recognize even in ourselves.  Call it evolutionary or fallenness or whatever, I just think we should be clear eyed about how we are as a species.  We’re naturally selfish and we naturally place too much importance on how we think other people see us (which of course includes how our partners and families are perceived) even though the vast majority of other people don't spend very much time thinking about us at all because they are themselves preoccupied with themselves and how they think they are being perceived.   

I never said all or even most marriages are strong, loving, trusting, and respectful. There's a reason so many end in divorce, and even more should.

I specifically said that a marriage that will be damaged by FIRE, aka by having enough freedom not to work is a marriage that was likely to be damaged by any significant strain.

The point is that if FIRE can take out a marriage, then FIRE isn't the problem, the marriage is, which is a much bigger issue.

People go on and on about the risk of FIRE to marriages, but really, if FIRE is legitimately a risk, then so is everything else in life because life tends to be hard. And funnily enough, it tends to be A LOT harder when you don't have enough money to be flexible in your options.

The concept that marriage is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, so FIRE must be harder is absurd. Normal circumstances mean having to work for money in jobs that would be stressful to lose, which means having a lot of work-based stress and pressure. Throw in two working partners and kids, and there's no way that that's fundamentally easier than having the financial freedom to make choices.

Yeah, sure, adjusting to change is hard. FIRE comes with challenges, but I'll take those challenges any day over being trapped in a stressful job that I can't afford to lose while trying to give my all to my marriage. THAT is hard.

[arebelspy]

Sounds like you two are coming from it from different perspectives.

TF is saying (what he/she sees as) an average, normal marriage with that might experience some struggles.

Malcat is saying a good, healthy marriage should be fine and easily withstand that.

Both could be true.

[Mmm_Donuts]

The concept that marriage is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, so FIRE must be harder is absurd. Normal circumstances mean having to work for money in jobs that would be stressful to lose, which means having a lot of work-based stress and pressure. Throw in two working partners and kids, and there's no way that that's fundamentally easier than having the financial freedom to make choices.

FIRE is an unconventional choice. It can offer relief to some, but add pressure for others. Different people, different types of pressure.

For some people, FIRE relieves the financial pressures of both people in a couple having to work, and benefits the marriage, as Malcat says above. For others, and this seems like it was the Dooms' case, FIRE actually wasn't seen in this light, but was adding more pressure, as Ms Doom wanted to live a more conventional, spendy life, and was feeling societal pressure to go back to work. FIRE wasn't a relief in their case but rather added further complications to life (and therefore to the marriage). There's financial stress, and there's social / societal stress.

I think there was the added element of Dr Doom 'shaming' her for having conventional priorities, like she wasn't thinking for herself. This could be true. Who knows? And whether or not she was thinking for herself, or had internalized social pressures doesn't matter. She was experiencing FIRE as an unneeded pressure, and that cause a lot of strain on the relationship for her. It seems like she wanted work, financial, and material ambitions to be a team effort. He did not see the value in those things.

So yeah, I agree with TF and Malcat and don't see how their perspectives necessarily contradict each other. It just depends on the people and their situation.

[Metalcat]

Sounds like you two are coming from it from different perspectives.

TF is saying (what he/she sees as) an average, normal marriage with that might experience some struggles.

Malcat is saying a good, healthy marriage should be fine and easily withstand that.

Both could be true.

Those specific perspectives are both true, what I keep arguing against is this concept that FIRE is in general a risk to marriage, and that we should all be cautious about that.

FIRE itself isn't a risk to marriages, it can just reveal the already existing risks. No marriage can last a lifetime without facing enormous challenges that a lot of marriages won't weather, you cannot avoid that. All marriages get tested, it's a normal part of the process.

So yes, everyone in a marriage should be prepared that any major life change could be a challenge, but again, those challenges aren't what ends marriages, they just reveal fault lines. I mean, home renos are the *number one* catalyst for divorce, and we don't have people constantly wringing their hands about the risks of divorce from updating kitchens.

What I feel is very important to distinguish is that just because change poses a challenge, doesn't mean that avoiding that change, like choosing to stay employed even if you don't need to, adds any level of protection to a marriage.

[Raenia]

Sounds like you two are coming from it from different perspectives.

TF is saying (what he/she sees as) an average, normal marriage with that might experience some struggles.

Malcat is saying a good, healthy marriage should be fine and easily withstand that.

Both could be true.

Those specific perspectives are both true, what I keep arguing against is this concept that FIRE is in general a risk to marriage, and that we should all be cautious about that.

FIRE itself isn't a risk to marriages, it can just reveal the already existing risks. No marriage can last a lifetime without facing enormous challenges that a lot of marriages won't weather, you cannot avoid that. All marriages get tested, it's a normal part of the process.

So yes, everyone in a marriage should be prepared that any major life change could be a challenge, but again, those challenges aren't what ends marriages, they just reveal fault lines. I mean, home renos are the *number one* catalyst for divorce, and we don't have people constantly wringing their hands about the risks of divorce from updating kitchens.

What I feel is very important to distinguish is that just because change poses a challenge, doesn't mean that avoiding that change, like choosing to stay employed even if you don't need to, adds any level of protection to a marriage.

I would think that every marriage, even a very strong one, has fault lines somewhere, it's just a matter of how bad things have to get to bring them to the surface.  A good marriage is stronger than the sum of its parts, but not infinitely stronger.  If the person breaks, the marriage breaks, and there's only so much that the other partner can take on to relieve the pressure.

I know you weren't speaking to me, but since you brought up home renovation - I think it's very likely that the renovation of the home my DH and I bought would have led to our divorce.  On top of COVID and work and mental health issues (medicated and in therapy, but progress is slow), there's only so much two people can put up with.  So our choice is to skip the renovation by selling the house, so we can focus on mental health and work.  If we were in a financial position where skipping the job was an option, we might do that instead, but we're nowhere close to FI yet.

All marriages get tested, but sometimes you can choose to delay the test until you've had a chance to become stronger people and build a stronger marriage as a result.  I don't think that choosing to call in sick on exam day this time around means my marriage is weak or doomed to fail.  We'll take the make-up test when we're feeling better.  If someone is finding FIRE a serious stress test of their marriage, I can certainly see choosing to delay RE while working on the underlying fault line - which in Dr. Doom's case appears to have involved some mental health issues from both participants, which might have benefitted from therapy.

I hope that was coherent, I've been trying to work through these issues myself recently.