Author Topic: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?  (Read 26933 times)

justajane

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2015, 08:54:17 AM »
Yeah, Facebook posts often have me scratching my head. I know what nice restaurants and hotels costs and what airline tickets and concert tickets are going for these days. I guess I could assume that people are only using credit rewards and are geniuses at finding travel hacks, but they can't all be doing that. So, yeah, I come to the conclusion that either they aren't saving a damn or they just happen to make much, much more than we do.

Zikoris

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2015, 09:11:31 AM »
I would really really love to see the balance sheets of people who live fabulous lives on Facebook.

I can only come to two conclusions--either they make a lot more money than me or they save a very paltry amount/are in debt.  That can be hard to determine.

Hey, I live a fabulous life on Facebook! And in real life. I'm one of those people posting tons of exotic travel photos, going to concerts and movies and the opera all the time, and playing the new video games. Oh, but I buy the plane tickets on seat sales and stay in AirBnBs with kitchens, and take the local public transportation as much as possible. The concert tickets are usually either same-day half price tickets or age-discounted (under-35s can get cheap symphony and opera tickets in my city). And the video games either come from the library, or are bought used and resold afterwards for a near net-zero cost.

Our total spending is around 26K for two people, including everything.

zephyr911

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2015, 09:18:09 AM »
Yeah, Facebook posts often have me scratching my head. I know what nice restaurants and hotels costs and what airline tickets and concert tickets are going for these days. I guess I could assume that people are only using credit rewards and are geniuses at finding travel hacks, but they can't all be doing that. So, yeah, I come to the conclusion that either they aren't saving a damn or they just happen to make much, much more than we do.
I can only give two examples from personal knowledge.

Exhibit A:
  FB - constantly brags about things they buy together w/ SO, life is the best, etc.
  IRL - DINKs with insanely low COL, still manage to blow massive disposable income and sometimes even overspend, leading to stress. Saving a little maybe, paying house down, but no talk of substantial investment.

Exibit B:
  FB - pics of high-dollar vehicle, golf trips, etc
  IRL - grosses six figures in LCOL area, still leveraged to hell; saving a few % but NW likely flat as debt creeps up; tapped all home equity and still 50-60k consumer debt.

Serious hair-on-fire shit. And I think there is an actual correlation. If you constantly show off that stuff, it shows where your values are. If you value that kind of consumption highly, of course you push it to the limits, and finances are affected.

regulator

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2015, 09:40:07 AM »
Yeah, Facebook posts often have me scratching my head. I know what nice restaurants and hotels costs and what airline tickets and concert tickets are going for these days. I guess I could assume that people are only using credit rewards and are geniuses at finding travel hacks, but they can't all be doing that. So, yeah, I come to the conclusion that either they aren't saving a damn or they just happen to make much, much more than we do.

Thankfully most of my facebook feed does not have tons of conspicuous consumption posts.  Of the few people who like to live "the life" that I know well, all of them are wildly overstretched financially.  I often  wonder about the conspicuous consumption crowd.  Why do they feel the need/delight in all of this sort of thing so much so that they will even push themselves into bankruptcy sometimes?  They must simply have a different psychological makeup than I do.

zephyr911

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2015, 09:43:04 AM »
Yeah, Facebook posts often have me scratching my head. I know what nice restaurants and hotels costs and what airline tickets and concert tickets are going for these days. I guess I could assume that people are only using credit rewards and are geniuses at finding travel hacks, but they can't all be doing that. So, yeah, I come to the conclusion that either they aren't saving a damn or they just happen to make much, much more than we do.

Thankfully most of my facebook feed does not have tons of conspicuous consumption posts.  Of the few people who like to live "the life" that I know well, all of them are wildly overstretched financially.  I often  wonder about the conspicuous consumption crowd.  Why do they feel the need/delight in all of this sort of thing so much so that they will even push themselves into bankruptcy sometimes?  They must simply have a different psychological makeup than I do.
When I was bogged down in that shit myself, I knew there was a problem but I was just stuck in this mindset that I needed happiness in there here and now, and I'd figure the rest out someday. I was too spun up to stop and examine my allocations, or I would have realized I could have the same amount of fun without paying retail for so much shit.

Tyler

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2015, 09:49:00 AM »
Whenever discussing finances and ER (rarely IRL, but regularly online) I always intentionally avoid absolute spending numbers.  That is almost guaranteed to trip people up and prevent them from opening up to how it works.  Assuming a $1mm portfolio to make the math easy is fine (while saying that you can adjust the numbers based on your own personal spending).  Starting with an expense assumption is an unnecessary handicap to the conversation.

coppertop

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2015, 10:53:12 AM »
If I may play armchair psychologist for a moment, it seems to me that those who have a need for expensive, flashy cars; the perfectly-done house; and designer handbags and shoes have some sort of need for validation - they don't feel worthy unless they can show it outwardly with high-end goodies.  I recently ended a long-term friendship with a woman like that - she was always on display, constantly buying expensive goods when she did not have the money to do so.  She was not saving in her retirement account and she told me with a straight face that she hadn't seen her son in seven years because she could not afford to go (he lives in another state).  This was right after bragging about some Frye boots she just bought.  At that point, I realized our differences were insurmountable because her values were so screwed up. 

ooeei

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2015, 11:29:37 AM »
If I may play armchair psychologist for a moment, it seems to me that those who have a need for expensive, flashy cars; the perfectly-done house; and designer handbags and shoes have some sort of need for validation - they don't feel worthy unless they can show it outwardly with high-end goodies.  I recently ended a long-term friendship with a woman like that - she was always on display, constantly buying expensive goods when she did not have the money to do so.  She was not saving in her retirement account and she told me with a straight face that she hadn't seen her son in seven years because she could not afford to go (he lives in another state).  This was right after bragging about some Frye boots she just bought.  At that point, I realized our differences were insurmountable because her values were so screwed up.

Yeah, I've always thought it odd that people congratulate other people on new purchases. 

"Check out my new mustang"

"Wow, it's gorgeous, congratulations!"

The same can be said for clothes:  "I love your outfit!"  or tech:  "Wow that new TV is awesome!"

It's like you get credit for designing the stuff, but you don't have to do anything but buy it (clothes sometimes being the exception, as they don't have to be expensive).  Why do people congratulate someone for buying a new car?  With loans structured how they are today just about anyone can buy just about any car with very minimal effort.  Because they're fishing for compliments and if you say anything negative about it you're a bummer, that's why I usually just sort of brush it off and say it looks nice or something.  Even then I feel a little dirty.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2015, 11:42:52 AM »
Metta - I think you should look at whether they have car payments or not. IMO that's the single largest non-mortgage expense people have. Its also the one taken for granted the most, of course people have expensive car payments!

My annual spending is easily calculated. Total Net from my last paystub of the year - total I saved into my 3 accounts (RRSP, TFSA, taxable Savings). That's 401K and Roth IRA in American. For example 80,000-15,000-5500-20000=$39,500 spent. I may not have a detailed list, but it's also 5 minutes to figure out or even less if you don't save ;)

Since the math is far too simple to screw up it's pretty hard to doubt.

2lazy2retire

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2015, 11:44:01 AM »
regulator - we're having a stupid expensive year compared to historical averages and I think we'll end up about $50K with $13K of that being student loan payments. We have a cheap house but an expensive underwater mortgage ($1100/month) and 3 kids.

Debt-free with all capital replacement averages taken into account our baseline is in the same $30K territory several others have posted.

Don't "doubt us" just accept that everyone has different value judgments and unique history of expenses.

Well, good for all of you who can "limbo lower."  It does not seem to be reality for my family, hence my skepticism.  I guess a lot of this also depends on lifestyle/standard of living choices as well.


"I guess a lot of this also depends on lifestyle/standard of living choices as well."  - No shit Sherlock ;)

2lazy2retire

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2015, 11:49:48 AM »
Yes they are but my house is also worth 450K, the schooling is top notch, and we live close to the biggest city in the world.  My wife and I have never been unemployed in-fact we turn job offers down.  While I HATE that I have to pay these taxes...there is some benefit to them.  If you think mine are high...check out some of the taxes in LI.  20-30K a year.

The biggest city in the world is Tokyo, not New York.

Fair enough, but if you are in the field of finance the only place in the world that even comes close to the NYC labor market is London.

And London comes with free healthcare and property tax of about 1k a year on a similar property

Cookie78

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2015, 11:53:07 AM »
I doubt my finances all the time, but I don't usually talk to people about the details. I only doubt them in a way that every time I do the math (and I do it often) I'm astounded that it still works! Before MMM I had no idea it could be this easy, and I'm certain that most people still have no idea. I had no idea what my yearly expenses were before I started tracking them, and I would have guessed a lot higher. I also hadn't thought that I could easily lower those expenses without causing any hardship, then save the rest to become FI, because no one had put the idea in my head yet and I hadn't thought of it myself.

As for other people's opinions I'm not generally worried about them. I'll be ok.

Squirrel away

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2015, 11:55:45 AM »
I doubt my finances all the time, but I don't usually talk to people about the details. I only doubt them in a way that every time I do the math (and I do it often) I'm astounded that it still works! Before MMM I had no idea it could be this easy, and I'm certain that most people still have no idea. I had no idea what my yearly expenses were before I started tracking them, and I would have guessed a lot higher. I also hadn't thought that I could easily lower those expenses without causing any hardship, then save the rest to become FI, because no one had put the idea in my head yet and I hadn't thought of it myself.

So true.:)

mrteacher

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2015, 11:59:20 AM »
Yeah, Facebook posts often have me scratching my head. I know what nice restaurants and hotels costs and what airline tickets and concert tickets are going for these days. I guess I could assume that people are only using credit rewards and are geniuses at finding travel hacks, but they can't all be doing that. So, yeah, I come to the conclusion that either they aren't saving a damn or they just happen to make much, much more than we do.

Social media sharing befuddles me too. Some of my friends (20-something, young urban professionals) post pictures of things/experiences that cost a lot of money. I know that some of them make equal to or less than I make as a teacher, yet they spend like they are six-figure earners. I always wonder what percentage of their income goes into savings - I'm guessing under 10%. FWIW, I grew up in an affluent town, and some parents still fund some of these trips/adventures/toys.

regulator

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2015, 12:24:59 PM »
Yes they are but my house is also worth 450K, the schooling is top notch, and we live close to the biggest city in the world.  My wife and I have never been unemployed in-fact we turn job offers down.  While I HATE that I have to pay these taxes...there is some benefit to them.  If you think mine are high...check out some of the taxes in LI.  20-30K a year.

The biggest city in the world is Tokyo, not New York.

Fair enough, but if you are in the field of finance the only place in the world that even comes close to the NYC labor market is London.

And London comes with free healthcare and property tax of about 1k a year on a similar property

And the expense of an international move, the "fun" of immigrating, and presumably higher income taxes.

BDWW

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2015, 12:46:53 PM »
Every time I talk to anyone else about finances, I become more convinced that MMM is the best thing that ever happened to me.

People who think it's impossible to live on less than 50k are idiots. Easy fact check: per the Census Bureau, the median family in the US earned $51k and change last year, and miraculously didn't die. That means half the people in the richest country on Earth live on less; if you factor in a paid-for house in your retirement scenario, the benchmark is probably more like two-thirds. Every day, they walk past people who are doing it. Nothing can explain the belief that it's impossible, other than willfull ignorance.

Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.

Glad someone brought this up. It's weird how people can get sucked into their narrow world view and ignore contrary evidence. It's easy enough to determine mean and median incomes in any area in the US. If you "can't" live on a number that's bigger than the median, you're probably delusional.

Faraday

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2015, 05:26:15 PM »
Every time I talk to anyone else about finances, I become more convinced that MMM is the best thing that ever happened to me.

People who think it's impossible to live on less than 50k are idiots. Easy fact check: per the Census Bureau, the median family in the US earned $51k and change last year, and miraculously didn't die. That means half the people in the richest country on Earth live on less; if you factor in a paid-for house in your retirement scenario, the benchmark is probably more like two-thirds. Every day, they walk past people who are doing it. Nothing can explain the belief that it's impossible, other than willfull ignorance...

Zephyr911 nailed it. My mother was a schoolteacher who raised five kids on less than $51k/year. I'm not sure her salary went past that number even in her last years of teaching, and she lives quite comfortably and middle-class on her retirement pension right now.

Exclusive of my mortgage, DW and I are right at $30,000/year spending right now. I'd be flat-out embarrassed for anyone here to see what manages to get into our grocery cart sometimes. (prepackaged foods)

After mortgage payoff, my solemn objective is for DW and I to live like king and queen on $20k-$24k/year. If we can do that, I know we'll make FIRE by 2020.

For you, the switch to MMM/frugalism/badassity must have been easy and logical. You sound like a really great person, willing to give your friends the benefit of the doubt. However, you now live very subversively to the common paradigm. You live in a way most people cannot comprehend.

Keep on keeping on and don't hesitate to come to the forums for moral support.

tallen

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2015, 06:13:30 PM »
I've known a few people that had flashy facebook lifes and in real life they weren't nearly as happy and carefree as their posts made them out to be. Not saying everyone is like that but you can easily craft a false image on the internet. The only reason I even have a facebook profile is so old friends can find me if they decide to look me up and so I can look up people I've lost touch with on occasion.

Mrs. Healthywealth

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2015, 08:20:10 AM »
We are a family of four and a dog.  Still only spend $45,000-$50,000 and that's not our bare bones budget.  Yesterday someone tried to convince me that there was no way we would retire early b/c we haven't experienced how much kids really cost (they are only 16 mos old).  Granted the person who was talking to me made less than half my income, but her spouse and her income combined surpasses our household income. Yet they struggle b/c they have their kids in private school and very expensive extracurricular activities.  Will extracurricular activities increase our expenditures, most likely, but you have control over how much you spend--that's what people forget.

2 yrs ago a financial advisor told us we had enough to retire comfortably at 65.  He said if you want to retire at 55 you have to invest X amount of money.  We are doubling the amount he told us so we can FIRE in 10yrs.  I'll do something for fun to pay for the twins activities if its really needed--that shit seems overrated to me, but I won't judge just in case I become a soccer mom (I prefer basketball and tennis though).

justajane

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2015, 09:00:30 AM »
We are a family of four and a dog.  Still only spend $45,000-$50,000 and that's not our bare bones budget.  Yesterday someone tried to convince me that there was no way we would retire early b/c we haven't experienced how much kids really cost (they are only 16 mos old).  Granted the person who was talking to me made less than half my income, but her spouse and her income combined surpasses our household income. Yet they struggle b/c they have their kids in private school and very expensive extracurricular activities.  Will extracurricular activities increase our expenditures, most likely, but you have control over how much you spend--that's what people forget.

There are some things you can't control and some things you can, but even if you do, your expenses will still go up as your kids age. Case in point is food. Sixteen year olds eat way more than sixteen month olds. Hell, they eat more than adults. So, yes, you don't have to let them gorge on expensive food, but your food budget will likely rise. And then there are school expenses. Yes, I guess you don't have to pay the $10 suggested donation I just received for PTO parties held in the classroom, but you have to pay for school supplies, even if you get them on sale. And shoes for older children cost more, even if you manage to still get all your clothes as hand-me-downs and pay nothing for those.

In other words, I agree with both of you. Older kids are more expensive than younger kids, but the damage can be managed through smart choices and instilling in your kids at a younger age that they might not get everything their peer's get. But even factoring that in, your expenses will rise. It's just how much.

Mrs. Healthywealth

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2015, 10:32:58 AM »
Quote
There are some things you can't control and some things you can, but even if you do, your expenses will still go up as your kids age. Case in point is food. Sixteen year olds eat way more than sixteen month olds. Hell, they eat more than adults. So, yes, you don't have to let them gorge on expensive food, but your food budget will likely rise. And then there are school expenses. Yes, I guess you don't have to pay the $10 suggested donation I just received for PTO parties held in the classroom, but you have to pay for school supplies, even if you get them on sale. And shoes for older children cost more, even if you manage to still get all your clothes as hand-me-downs and pay nothing for those.

HAHA!! That would be so shitty to not give the $10 donation but eat the food. But you make good points. They eat a ton, there will be fees, clothes, supplies, etc. On top of that you throw a few hundreds into saving for school.  With all that in mind, most, not all, people can accomplish FI. I just wasn't a fan of her trying to rain on my parade, which people tend to do.  Keep running your numbers when you feel the doubt creep in.

Mrs. Money Mustache saved had a great post about newborns that really helped (sorry if I went way off topic):
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/09/mrs-money-mustache-what-do-newborn-babies-really-need/

justajane

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2015, 10:40:49 AM »
Quote
There are some things you can't control and some things you can, but even if you do, your expenses will still go up as your kids age. Case in point is food. Sixteen year olds eat way more than sixteen month olds. Hell, they eat more than adults. So, yes, you don't have to let them gorge on expensive food, but your food budget will likely rise. And then there are school expenses. Yes, I guess you don't have to pay the $10 suggested donation I just received for PTO parties held in the classroom, but you have to pay for school supplies, even if you get them on sale. And shoes for older children cost more, even if you manage to still get all your clothes as hand-me-downs and pay nothing for those.

HAHA!! That would be so shitty to not give the $10 donation but eat the food. But you make good points. They eat a ton, there will be fees, clothes, supplies, etc. On top of that you throw a few hundreds into saving for school.  With all that in mind, most, not all, people can accomplish FI. I just wasn't a fan of her trying to rain on my parade, which people tend to do.  Keep running your numbers when you feel the doubt creep in.

Mrs. Money Mustache saved had a great post about newborns that really helped (sorry if I went way off topic):
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/09/mrs-money-mustache-what-do-newborn-babies-really-need/

You're absolutely right that young parents are an easy target, as if their lack of experience is somehow a personal failing of theirs and not just a function of having not experienced something yet. And, of course, it gives older parents a sense of one-upmanship to point out what they don't yet know. In many cases, it's probably not deserved. Once in a blue moon, I'll encounter a pretty cocky young parent, pregnant woman, or even someone without kids at all who makes sweeping pronouncements and want to put them in their place, but overall I've learned to keep my mouth shut, in large because I've been there myself.

Having said that, though, I appreciate those who respectfully let me know what's to come in this parenting journey. And, regarding infancy, those who find a way not to spend a shit-ton on all the unnecessary stuff marketed to young, vulnerable parents will really come out ahead and are already training themselves for how to cut expenses later when they are less unnecessary but still negotiable.

I did pay the PTO "bill." It was optional, but IMO not really, and what's $10 for me? Not much. I believe I even threw in a couple more bucks for those for whom $10 might be more significant. We live in a semi-disadvantaged district. 

minority_finance_mo

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2015, 10:42:31 AM »
A lot of these expenses are likely reoccuring payments that your friends have lost track of. My coworker mentioned to me earlier this year that he had just signed up for [Insert swanky $100/month gym] membership. He's not a really fit guy, and this gym doesn't really offer anything special except the branding (and one free instruction per month). A few months later he told me he was still being charged for his old $50/month gym without knowing it, AND hadn't really been going to the new gym either. "But gym memberships are a necessary expense man..."

Jon_Snow

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2015, 10:46:27 AM »
I literally know of NO ONE in "real life" who has chosen a financial path like my wife and I have. So no, not much of an audience for us. A few attempts to explain the benefits of "living below your means" resulted in such awkwardness that I have no desire to again bother trying. Carry on, Vancouver debt slaves!

kite

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2015, 10:58:12 AM »
All of them go out to eat everyday, but that's not enough to make such a big difference in financial perceptions.

No, that's it.

Going out to eat everyday is responsible for more financial problems (and death) than most are willing to admit aloud.

Prepared food is more expensive than food you make yourself.  Doubly so (or triple, quadruple, quintuple, etc...) if it is served to you.
A daily habit of it will shorten your life and necessitate more medical expenses in the years leading up to your premature death.  It is delicious because it contains more butter, salt and sugar than anyone should ingest on a regular basis.  There's a perverse logic in there: it shortens your life, but you've wasted so much money that you can't support yourself too long after your income ceases.

I'm a big fan of Cathy Erway.  She has a blog about cooking, and wrote a book about not eating out for two years, in New York city.  If you live/work in or near NYC, you know just how unusual that is.  No Chinese take-out, no slice from a pizza place, no bagel & shmear from the corner deli, no dirty-water-dogs, no Halal Guys.  Prepping all your own meals from scratch is a ridiculously straightforward way to save money. 

Restaurant dining is a luxury. 
A luxury that blows up more middle class budgets than just about anything else.

But to answer your question...
My assumption when discussing finances with others is that they are withholding something.  It might not be intentional on their part, but you don't ever get the full picture.  So I don't doubt my own in comparison, as I don't actually know their situation. 

justajane

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2015, 11:39:58 AM »
Restaurant dining is a luxury. 
A luxury that blows up more middle class budgets than just about anything else.

There's certainly some truth here, if you're talking about a $10-$15 fast casual type of place once every day, but for a single person, this still "only" adds up to $300-$400 a month. That's a chunk of change for sure. It would be better for their bottom line and their waistline to cook at home.

In my circles, however, I would argue that house and car inflation are the real budget busters, because the direct cost of them is more hidden, at least they are if you are pretty clueless about finances. How many people have we heard say that their car payment is "only $300 a month?" And with houses, we just had a pretty financially savvy family we know upgrade their home from a 150K to a 450K one! That shit happens. If they had stayed in their cheaper home they could eat out three times a day for years and years and still come out way ahead. Of course, as Mustachians, you should arguably do both -- stay in a cheaper home and eat in all the time -- but I guess my point is that there are much larger decisions that are killing middle and upper middle class families.

TomTX

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2015, 11:42:30 AM »
If someone is doubting my calculations (that's the wrong equation/you have an operation error here), I would be so grateful to talk with them about it.  If someone is telling me I don't know how much I spend, as in your example, I can refer them to Mint and they will see my min/max/average per monthly spending for the last three years.  Can't argue with that.  They probably have never tracked their finances that closely, so how would they know?

I do sometimes doubt my own determination of what my "minimum" really is, but generally I believe that it could be even lower than I think.  I prefer to be conservative.

Do these kinds of people buy a lot of house decor/furniture?  This is one of few things I notice that I don't have compared to others.  That, and going out to the bars every week.  Wow, is that stupidly expensive...

$30/day restaurant is $900/month
$200/month cable package
$200/month cell phone
$75/month land line phone
$400/month bars
$200/month concerts, movies, crap
$500/month single car lease
$2,000/month mortgage/property tax
$250/month gifts
$500/month clothes

So, we're up to $5250/month in extra crap when a Mustachian is paying maybe $500 (with the paid off house) - we haven't even gotten to groceries and utilities. Plenty of utility waste in there - my sister just moved into a new $400k house (appraisal, she's paying $340k) - 95% of the light bulbs are old incandescent power-suckers. Replaced most of 'em with the $2.50 Phillips LEDs from Home Depot. Some really nice $6 Crees for the dimmable fixtures (marked down from $12.) I bet the previous owners had hundreds of dollars a month in wasted electricity from leaving those old bulbs on all the time (as most people do.)

cchrissyy

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2015, 04:19:23 PM »
I wouldn't bother explaining the 4% rule or 25x expenses or anything like that

"we keep our expenses low, so we can put more money in to savings, and when there is enough we will stop working and slowly draw from savings to live on"

ShaneD

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2015, 12:19:25 PM »
Most folks spend a ridiculous amount of money on things that bring them no enjoyment and they don't even notice how much it costs. Just a few dollars here, $20 there, $200 somewhere else. Mower won't start: chuck it and go buy a new, much fancier one at Home Depot. Shop at the most expensive grocery store even thought it's no better than Aldi. Upgrade to new car every 3 years and drive it all over creation. Really expensive airfare for last minute travel plans on a whim. It all adds up to massive expenses and nobody tracks it to see the real cost.

Bingo. I'm always aware of what things cost, but I've noticed with some of our relatives that they don't ever think through the cost to value ratio. If they want it, they buy it. It doesn't matter that it costs $20 and they could get it for $15 online. Or if they waited a few months, the cost would drop to $10. Or that they could buy it used for $5. Not to mention the thought process, "Huh, I like this, but really, am I going to want it in two weeks or two years? Is it really going to add to my happiness?" If they want it, they buy it.

I realized a few years ago that some people don't even pay attention to prices on menus. I can't fathom that. Every time I go to dinner, I calculate the cost into my decision about what I order. (An aside, why the fuck don't they list the price of non-alcoholic beverages sometimes? As if cost doesn't factor at all into someone's decision).

We readily encounter this also in terms of the kids. Sometimes I'll say that we won't do X event because it costs $25 a ticket. It's like it has never occurred to people that you can not do something because of cost. Or they have just become so used to paying that kind of money for entertainment that they forget it's real money. Maybe credit cards are to blame for that. A friend of mine who complains about the fact that she only has $50 in her checking account will still ask me to go out to a movie. I -- the one with investment accounts -- is usually the one suggesting to do something cheaper.

Nth-ing gt7152b and justajane. I've discovered over the years that a lot of my friends spend without much thought. They don't comparison- or bargain-shop -- or if they do, it's only on really big-ticket items, but even then only minimally. I find (surprisingly) a lot of people -- really smart, savvy people -- paying only lip service to economizing. With groceries, for example, they buy supplies for their everyday (non-special) meals based on what they want at that moment with absolutely no eye toward price. Stocking up or building a menu based on what's on sale just doesn't seem to even occur to them. I found it really bizarre when I realized just how knee-jerk their spending is. And that goes for everything else, too, including meals out, drinks out, cars, phone data plans... (Never mind the thought that a data plan might actually be (gasp) optional.)

Of my closest friends, we live in the most expensive area and have had the most volatile work situations (3 layoffs in 10 years). (ETA: And make salaries that are right down the middle of the group. Not lowest, not highest.) Yet we're on schedule to retire or semi-retire in 10 years or less, while they're always talking about how broke they are and struggling to pay their mortgages for too-big houses and loans for overpriced cars. So instead of casting doubt, I find talking to other people most often validates my own finances instead.


« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 12:48:54 PM by ShaneD »

cbr shadow

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2015, 02:46:11 PM »
Social Media is a funny thing.  I used to look at Facebook and think "wow these people must make a lot of money.. their lives are so exciting!" but then I realized that they use FB to show only the exciting things in their lives.  I wouldn't expect someone to post a ton of negative things to all of their friends, so it makes sense that lots of people use FB that way.  I never thought I did that until I recently looked over my own facebook page and thought "wow from an outside view I either look really exciting/rich or really pretentious".  Either way, I don't care very much.  Sure I want old friends to see that I'm doing well, but it doesn't mean enough to me to sit and plan out what I post on my profile. 
When I do something exciting or capture a good image w/ my phone I'll usually post it up.  When I have a headache or a bad meal at a restaurant I don't feel the need to post about it to my FB page.  The result of those two things is an unrealistically exciting FB page.

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2015, 03:13:15 PM »
I'm interested in how you guys account for expenses versus asset reallocation. For me, a mortgage would be mostly non-expense, as would student loans. For student loans, the expense was attending school, but paying off principal is a canceling out of assets and liabilities, so that doesn't count to me as an expense. The only part of paying student loans that counts as an expense is interest, but I add that to my expenses monthly regardless of payment. I incurred the expenses when I paid for the privilege of borrowing the money another month, not when I canceled some of that borrowing out with my own cash reserves. I would do the same for a house if I had one, but I'm a renter.

Also, as to the car question, I've decided that I don't want to track depreciation, so that's not something I do; instead I just count purchases and repairs. Obviously that comes at a cost to precision, but I figure it's manageable as long as I'm not driving or using other expensive assets too much.

needmyfi

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2015, 11:33:44 PM »
Every time I talk to anyone else about finances, I become more convinced that MMM is the best thing that ever happened to me.

People who think it's impossible to live on less than 50k are idiots. Easy fact check: per the Census Bureau, the median family in the US earned $51k and change last year, and miraculously didn't die. That means half the people in the richest country on Earth live on less; if you factor in a paid-for house in your retirement scenario, the benchmark is probably more like two-thirds. Every day, they walk past people who are doing it. Nothing can explain the belief that it's impossible, other than willfull ignorance.

Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.


Yes this +1  I have stopped working , husband will work one more year- so especially this year-WE ARE THE MEDIAN,  40k gross for him and 10k in gross rental income.  Our retirement spending will go UP to $30,000, right now we are living on slightly less than $22,000 with an additional 2k a year going into the WTF fund (repairs, car wrecks etc.-basically things you just can't budget for) If we wanted to not eat out once every week, and go down to one car (which we will next year when he quits working) we could reduce our spending even further.

iris lily

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2015, 05:27:16 AM »
Yes, "talking"  to other people --here--is intimidating! Haha. But true.

I'm a long time frugalista who retired a bit early at age 60 but not early at all by the standards on this board.

So the only reason I can participate in this thread about expenses is that I finally, after retiring,  have a good idea of how much we spend. I added up our spending the first six months of retirement and it was remarebky consistent from month to month. It is shaking out to be $55,000 annually.  That includes all taxes except income taxes. Since we are paying COBRA costs of $12,000 that will go down at some point.

We have no debt of any kind and live in a low COL place. Our income will cover this fairly easily and we can dip into cash reserves for vacations and large purchases.






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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2015, 06:01:49 AM »
If someone is doubting my calculations (that's the wrong equation/you have an operation error here), I would be so grateful to talk with them about it.  If someone is telling me I don't know how much I spend, as in your example, I can refer them to Mint and they will see my min/max/average per monthly spending for the last three years.  Can't argue with that.  They probably have never tracked their finances that closely, so how would they know?

I do sometimes doubt my own determination of what my "minimum" really is, but generally I believe that it could be even lower than I think.  I prefer to be conservative.

Do these kinds of people buy a lot of house decor/furniture?  This is one of few things I notice that I don't have compared to others.  That, and going out to the bars every week.  Wow, is that stupidly expensive...

This is one big key.

fattest_foot

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2015, 10:12:13 AM »
I started thinking. Everyone at the table was childless but everyone except me has dogs. Is that the difference? Dogs? Two of us have husbands. Two do not. Is that it? All of them go out to eat everyday, but that's not enough to make such a big difference in financial perceptions. They don't dress much better than me. In fact, I may be the best dressed of the crowd and I'm far from a fashionista. (One of the best dressed women in our office is our admin, who buys all her clothing from thrift stores so dressing well and spending lots don't necessarily go together.) I did pay off my mortgage this year, which opens up some space in my budget, but I don't think it is enough of a difference to account for their shock.

I made up a "ridiculous spending" budget for a household of two to show how it's done. This is mostly from overheard at work type stuff.

Housing: $1500
Utilities: $500 (gotta have the house at 68 in the summer and 76 in the winter!)
Car Payments (2): $600 (I might be lowballing this)
Car Insurance: $150 (not sure about this either...what does insurance run on 2 newish cars?)
Groceries: $600 (this is about the average from the other thread)
Eating Out: $500 (about 12 meals @ $40/ea)
Phone Service: $200
Cable/Internet: $200
Health/Dental: $500 (Cadillac plan, right?)
"Entertainment" (movies, concerts, etc): $150
Alcohol/Bars: $300
Gas: $200
Clothing: $150
Student Loans: $400
Credit Card Interest: $100

That's $72,600. Using net income, you're talking about blowing through a six figure income.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 10:20:11 AM by fattest_foot »

iris lily

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2015, 10:26:28 AM »
I'm interested in how you guys account for expenses versus asset reallocation. For me, a mortgage would be mostly non-expense, as would student loans. For student loans, the expense was attending school, but paying off principal is a canceling out of assets and liabilities, so that doesn't count to me as an expense. The only part of paying student loans that counts as an expense is interest, but I add that to my expenses monthly regardless of payment. I incurred the expenses when I paid for the privilege of borrowing the money another month, not when I canceled some of that borrowing out with my own cash reserves. I would do the same for a house if I had one, but I'm a renter.

Also, as to the car question, I've decided that I don't want to track depreciation, so that's not something I do; instead I just count purchases and repairs. Obviously that comes at a cost to precision, but I figure it's manageable as long as I'm not driving or using other expensive assets too much.

Dude, these are all expenses you mention above including student loan payments, all of it not just interest. We are talking about how much money we spend, not a formal accounting balance sheet.

 This practical exercise is for the purpose of calculating FIRE or Financially Independent Retired Early status. I can assure you that in FIRE you will need cash to pay your student loan, so that counts as an expense.

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2015, 11:33:15 AM »
This practical exercise is for the purpose of calculating FIRE or Financially Independent Retired Early status. I can assure you that in FIRE you will need cash to pay your student loan, so that counts as an expense.
Not if the student loan is paid off.
How many people here have a FIRE plan that involves not amortizing all major debt?
A few choose to leave the mortgage, as long as enough funds are invested at higher rates of return to pay for it, but that's the only common exception.

iris lily

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2015, 12:20:49 PM »
This practical exercise is for the purpose of calculating FIRE or Financially Independent Retired Early status. I can assure you that in FIRE you will need cash to pay your student loan, so that counts as an expense.
Not if the student loan is paid off.
How many people here have a FIRE plan that involves not amortizing all major debt?
A few choose to leave the mortgage, as long as enough funds are invested at higher rates of return to pay for it, but that's the only common exception.

Oh sure, I always assume FIRE comes with no outstanding debt other than perhaps, a mortgage.

honeybbq

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2015, 12:36:36 PM »
Definitely housing (around 30% of most people's take home) and cars are the culprit for the OP.

Having your house paid off is awesome.... of course, my property taxes are similar to another that someone posted at 12k a year... so even with the house paid off it is still a handsome bill.


zephyr911

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2015, 12:44:40 PM »
Oh sure, I always assume FIRE comes with no outstanding debt other than perhaps, a mortgage.
Since this is the internet, I'm going to have to ask if that comment was sarcastic, or if you're genuinely reversing course.
My comment was entirely serious, and was based on the majority of people here saying either 0 debt, or mortgage-only, is a basic assumption for their FIRE plan.

pbkmaine

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2015, 12:51:55 PM »
Never doubt yourself. Looks are very deceiving. When I was a practicing CFP, I could see the parking lot from my office. People who drove a modest car at least 5 years old, and wore nice but not designer clothes - they had a million dollars or were well on their way. The ones with the late model cars and labels all over their clothing had nothing in the bank. The wealthiest guy I ever worked with, who had just sold his dot com for half a billion, drove an ancient Subaru. He and his wife wore Old Navy jeans. The guys who wrote The Millionaire Next Store had it dead-on perfect.

Jack

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2015, 01:47:28 PM »
FWIW, I don't understand some of the low expense numbers I see posted here.  We have been gradually slashing expenses over the last couple of years and are getting close to the point where we have reached the maximum of milk for the minimum of moo.  That said, I would have a really hard time getting our expenses under 60k.  This is for a family of 4 (and 2 dogs) in a mid-cost area of the country with a $1200 mortgage payments (including escrows) and an exchange health insurance policy.  Aside from the mortgage, I assume the really low numbers I see are either not real, failing to account for certain infrequent items, for smaller families, or for very low cost areas.

And for me, I don't know how I would spend $60k a year. Right now we spend under $30K per year with 2 adults, 2 teenagers, and occassionally another teenager, she is away at university, and 2 cats. Plus we like to invite people over for supper, we go through alot of food. Mind you I am in Canada so I don't have to pay medical insurance, although I do through my employer $46.73 biweekly, and I likely pay more in taxes. We occasionally travel, although I travel for work so sometimes other family members tag along, but we do travel on our own dime most of the time for vacations. We live in an area where homes are inexpensive, but other costs such as groceries, oil, insurance are expensive.

I think the difference is housing. We spend $60-65k/year, but we have a house payment. If we didn't have a house payment, our spending would rival Pete himself.

My spending (for a family of two) over the last 12 months was $48k, but that included $12K of student loan repayment and $6K of mortgage. If I had no student loan debt and my house were paid off, my spending would have been almost exactly $30k/year.

Out of curiosity, are you including things like depreciation on vehicles, periodic repair/replacement on house/appliances/etc., having to meet deductibles on health and other insurance policies some years, etc.?

Sorry, I missed this reply before.

No, the $30K I posted was for my actual expenses over the last 12 months. However, I generally assume that, on average, a proportional amount of that kind of stuff is "built in" anyway. In other words, even if any particular relatively-large expense happens only once every couple of years, some large expense probably happens once a year.

My vehicles are pretty much fully-depreciated. My daily-driver is 25 years old, and my newest car is 17 years old. (Actually, my daily-driver is a bicycle... which is also 25 years old, LOL.)

I have some house-related expenses coming up (notably a roof replacement, which I actually plan to turn into a larger remodel involving adding a porch), but did not include that as it'll turn into more of a "capital improvement" than maintenance. Most house repairs are pretty cheap anyway because I DIY: for example, I've fixed roof damage twice in the last five years for only the cost of a square of shingles, a tube of roofing sealant, a roll of tar paper, a roll of 4" butyl tape, and a box of roofing nails (and I still have enough left for another couple of repairs). For me, an appliance replacement means spending $100 for something off Craigslist, not $1000 at Home Depot.

My insurance deductibles are small enough that I'm not overly worried about budgeting for them.

This practical exercise is for the purpose of calculating FIRE or Financially Independent Retired Early status. I can assure you that in FIRE you will need cash to pay your student loan, so that counts as an expense.
Not if the student loan is paid off.
How many people here have a FIRE plan that involves not amortizing all major debt?
A few choose to leave the mortgage, as long as enough funds are invested at higher rates of return to pay for it, but that's the only common exception.

Oh sure, I always assume FIRE comes with no outstanding debt other than perhaps, a mortgage.

Eh, it depends on the interest rate. My ~5%+ loans will certainly be paid off before FIRE (in fact, they get paid ahead of schedule, prioritized right behind tax-advantaged investments). My wife's ~3% loans, though? Not so much. We'll be keeping those until after FIRE, unless they amortize naturally first.

One Noisy Cat

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2015, 06:09:36 PM »

     I don't talk to people much about finances but when I do it just reinforces my belief that I did quite a lot of things right. Recently after outlining things to my older sister ($2200 a month pension, $2700 a month expenses and I do eat out frequently and have a big cable package after decades without, $730,000 saved) she remarked how Mom always said she wasn't worried about me...that I would do the best.  What a great thing to hear!!
     I got to thinking about how about four years ago one of my co workers showed me his new car he bought for $30,000. I congratulated him but later figured out my auto purchases since 1974...seven cars for $30,700 (I did inherit one six year old car so maybe that's about $37,000).

iris lily

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #93 on: October 27, 2015, 11:15:43 AM »
Oh sure, I always assume FIRE comes with no outstanding debt other than perhaps, a mortgage.
Since this is the internet, I'm going to have to ask if that comment was sarcastic, or if you're genuinely reversing course.
My comment was entirely serious, and was based on the majority of people here saying either 0 debt, or mortgage-only, is a basic assumption for their FIRE plan.

Somehow you and I are not communicating.
I agree with you that a FIRE plan usually means 0 debt, or mortgage only. Not sarcastic here.

redbird

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #94 on: October 27, 2015, 01:10:25 PM »
In real life? No. Never. Even when I still worked, co-workers were always complaining about debts or bragging about some ridiculous expense or telling me about some new restaurant they visited.

The latter especially - they were the type to eat out daily or near daily and would sometimes ask me for suggestions of a new place to visit. I eat out maybe a handful of times PER YEAR. This always boggled their minds why I wouldn't eat out more. Even when I explained that it was cheaper to cook at home, they still didn't seem to get it. They would say they don't do it because they hate being "stuck" with leftovers and having to eat the same thing more than once. If that's not the definition of a first world problem, I don't know what is.

I used to doubt my own finances compared to some people here on the MMM forums more before FIREing. But I realized something. My husband and I been living on less than $2k/month for most of our adult lives. We had more than enough money to ER on. And it's not like we can't start up some side gig to make money on the side. ER doesn't mean you won't have any more money (other than your passive income) coming in for the rest of your life. Plus by then my work situation was leaving me very miserable. I knew it was time to FIRE. Some people here may have more money in their stash than me, but I'm happy and that's all that matters.

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #96 on: October 27, 2015, 05:37:51 PM »
Social Media is a funny thing.  I used to look at Facebook and think "wow these people must make a lot of money.. their lives are so exciting!" but then I realized that they use FB to show only the exciting things in their lives.  I wouldn't expect someone to post a ton of negative things to all of their friends, so it makes sense that lots of people use FB that way.  I never thought I did that until I recently looked over my own facebook page and thought "wow from an outside view I either look really exciting/rich or really pretentious".  Either way, I don't care very much.  Sure I want old friends to see that I'm doing well, but it doesn't mean enough to me to sit and plan out what I post on my profile. 
When I do something exciting or capture a good image w/ my phone I'll usually post it up.  When I have a headache or a bad meal at a restaurant I don't feel the need to post about it to my FB page.  The result of those two things is an unrealistically exciting FB page.

I have found Facebook to be a huge time-suck.  Also, apparently some people who go on Facebook a lot end up with self-worth issues because it looks like everyone else is happier/better off.  To counteract these effects, I only log on a couple of times a week, and the vast majority of my posts are cute animal pictures and videos.  I don't put personal stuff on Facebook anymore.

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #97 on: October 27, 2015, 05:43:00 PM »
I'm interested in how you guys account for expenses versus asset reallocation. For me, a mortgage would be mostly non-expense, as would student loans. For student loans, the expense was attending school, but paying off principal is a canceling out of assets and liabilities, so that doesn't count to me as an expense. The only part of paying student loans that counts as an expense is interest, but I add that to my expenses monthly regardless of payment. I incurred the expenses when I paid for the privilege of borrowing the money another month, not when I canceled some of that borrowing out with my own cash reserves. I would do the same for a house if I had one, but I'm a renter.

Also, as to the car question, I've decided that I don't want to track depreciation, so that's not something I do; instead I just count purchases and repairs. Obviously that comes at a cost to precision, but I figure it's manageable as long as I'm not driving or using other expensive assets too much.

I treat this the same way you do.  Money that people owe me (where I think I will collect) goes in assets.  Credit card balance goes in liabilities, as will a mortgage if I ever get one.  Frankly, my 2003 car purchased for $7K back in 2009 is not worth keeping as an asset, so I am ignoring depreciation.

But, I am a nerdy accountant who keeps her personal finances in debits and credits and maintains a reconciliation between true net income and cash net in/outflow, so maybe you should take this post with a grain of salt.

(There has to be a way to multi-quote, but I don't know what it is.  I apologize for the double-post.)

yuka

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2015, 11:06:49 PM »
I'm interested in how you guys account for expenses versus asset reallocation. For me, a mortgage would be mostly non-expense, as would student loans. For student loans, the expense was attending school, but paying off principal is a canceling out of assets and liabilities, so that doesn't count to me as an expense. The only part of paying student loans that counts as an expense is interest, but I add that to my expenses monthly regardless of payment. I incurred the expenses when I paid for the privilege of borrowing the money another month, not when I canceled some of that borrowing out with my own cash reserves. I would do the same for a house if I had one, but I'm a renter.

Also, as to the car question, I've decided that I don't want to track depreciation, so that's not something I do; instead I just count purchases and repairs. Obviously that comes at a cost to precision, but I figure it's manageable as long as I'm not driving or using other expensive assets too much.

I treat this the same way you do.  Money that people owe me (where I think I will collect) goes in assets.  Credit card balance goes in liabilities, as will a mortgage if I ever get one.  Frankly, my 2003 car purchased for $7K back in 2009 is not worth keeping as an asset, so I am ignoring depreciation.

But, I am a nerdy accountant who keeps her personal finances in debits and credits and maintains a reconciliation between true net income and cash net in/outflow, so maybe you should take this post with a grain of salt.

(There has to be a way to multi-quote, but I don't know what it is.  I apologize for the double-post.)

Thanks for the reply! When I want to multi-quote, I normally press 'quote', type underneath that, then copy everything (quote plus my addition) from the typing box. Then I go back, press quote on the other post I want, then paste the previous quote and response above everything else before moving on to my reply of the second quote.

I'm not an accountant, but I've been using GnuCash to track my finances ever since I got frustrated that stuff like Mint wasn't robust enough for me. I think keeping things as I mentioned above lets you view loan payments as equivalent to investing, which is beneficial to me. As I see it, paying loans early is another investment vehicle just like index funds; it just has lower risk and different tax implications, but in the end they're all increasing net worth!

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Re: Does talking to other people ever cause you to doubt your own finances?
« Reply #99 on: November 01, 2015, 10:30:47 PM »
I'm interested in how you guys account for expenses versus asset reallocation. For me, a mortgage would be mostly non-expense, as would student loans. For student loans, the expense was attending school, but paying off principal is a canceling out of assets and liabilities, so that doesn't count to me as an expense. The only part of paying student loans that counts as an expense is interest, but I add that to my expenses monthly regardless of payment. I incurred the expenses when I paid for the privilege of borrowing the money another month, not when I canceled some of that borrowing out with my own cash reserves. I would do the same for a house if I had one, but I'm a renter.

Also, as to the car question, I've decided that I don't want to track depreciation, so that's not something I do; instead I just count purchases and repairs. Obviously that comes at a cost to precision, but I figure it's manageable as long as I'm not driving or using other expensive assets too much.

I treat this the same way you do.  Money that people owe me (where I think I will collect) goes in assets.  Credit card balance goes in liabilities, as will a mortgage if I ever get one.  Frankly, my 2003 car purchased for $7K back in 2009 is not worth keeping as an asset, so I am ignoring depreciation.

But, I am a nerdy accountant who keeps her personal finances in debits and credits and maintains a reconciliation between true net income and cash net in/outflow, so maybe you should take this post with a grain of salt.

(There has to be a way to multi-quote, but I don't know what it is.  I apologize for the double-post.)

Thanks for the reply! When I want to multi-quote, I normally press 'quote', type underneath that, then copy everything (quote plus my addition) from the typing box. Then I go back, press quote on the other post I want, then paste the previous quote and response above everything else before moving on to my reply of the second quote.

I'm not an accountant, but I've been using GnuCash to track my finances ever since I got frustrated that stuff like Mint wasn't robust enough for me. I think keeping things as I mentioned above lets you view loan payments as equivalent to investing, which is beneficial to me. As I see it, paying loans early is another investment vehicle just like index funds; it just has lower risk and different tax implications, but in the end they're all increasing net worth!

Oh!  Okay.  I kept looking for a multi-quote function as I use on another forum.  Thanks!

And that approach makes sense!  (How do you like GnuCash?  I had forgotten that I wanted to look into it, as Excel is getting cumbersome with so many dividends.  Now I need to run off and see what threads these forums have on it...)