Does Mustachianism Make You Economically Blind?

[Davids]

I agree that to a sense if you make minimum wage or a low salary that being mustachian can be very difficult or even impossible. Let's assume one has $30K/yr in annual expenses which is pretty low (I am sure others here will say they have much lower but $30K/yr annual expenses is pretty low) you have to make at least $60K/yr pretax to really start getting the benefits of being a mustachian and to get a 50% savings rate you probably have to make closer to $80K/yr pretax depending on where you live. 

[The Happy Philosopher]

I've seen the suggestion a few times on the forum that if poor people new about Mustachianism they wouldn't be poor. I think Mustachianism has some good traits, it definitely has saved me a lot of money. However as a member of a six-figure household I understand that being frugal is very different from being poor. For instance, I would never try to save money by moving my family to a poor ghetto. Poor people on the other hand pretty much have no choice but to live bad neighborhoods. I can save thousands of dollars a year because I make more money than what is needed to provide a good safe life for my family. If I made $7.25 (current min wage) or anywhere close to that amount, there is no way I could save anything. There are 46 million people living in poverty in the U.S., I have a hard time believing Mustachianism can bring the majority of them out of poverty.

Sometimes what will work for the individual will not work for society as a whole. Something pretty radical and not main stream like mustachianism will not work for society. There is no way the majority of people have the motivation, intelligence, will-power and temperament to use the tenants of mustachian philosophy to escape poverty; however, it is certainly possible for the vast majority of individuals to do so. It walks this fine line between personal responsibility and the realities of human nature and poverty. The problems inherent to systemic poverty are hard to overcome.

For people making minimum wage frugality is not the issue, it's income. If you make minimum wage this is a hair on fire emergency. These jobs are not designed to support a family, they are designed to be temporary stepping stones into the job market or supplemental income.

If we stripped the MMM family of all money and all assets, moved them to downtown Detroit or some other nightmare place to live, my guess is they would find a way to thrive and escape poverty in a short amount of time. In fact, now that I think of it that would make a great reality TV show (I imagine. I do not watch reality TV so I'm guessing here).

That said, I think most of us commenting here have not really felt the effects of true poverty and can not really know what it's like. Even when I have been poor (while in school) I always had hope, and I always had the safety net of family support. Many in poverty have neither. There is a low level chronic stress that accompanies true poverty which is difficult to overstate and impossible to understand unless you are in it.

[Trimatty471]

I kind of disagree with both points to a degree. I live on the edge of the poorest postal code in Canada, and love it here - it's the oldest part of the city, with all kinds of cool architecture and small non-chain local businesses. The fact that it's cheap to live and close to work is icing on the cake. I think a lot of poor, "bad" neighbourhoods are really hyped up to be worse than they are in reality. Obviously this doesn't apply to places that are genuinely dangerous, but some food for thought.

Absolutely agree. Some people just do not want to lower their "standards" so they over extend themselves.

[Trimatty471]

We helped 2 teen moms get through college, bought them cars, books & helped with housing.  We became honorary grandparents to their kids. 

That is awesome! Did the school just assign you to random people in need?

We knew these two already through our community.  Their lives were scarred by addiction, and dropping out of high school + teen pregnancy just seemed like a recipie for entrenched, lifelong poverty.  I called one on her birthday when her baby was 4 months old and promised her a car if she took her GED, enrolled in community college and got four semesters on the honor roll, either one class at a time or going full time, her choice.  She is now an RN, the mother of a brilliant teenage boy.   

My spouse and I grew up poor, bought a starter home a mere six houses away from the projects.  By midlife, I'd become quite successful but we never moved away from the poor people who are our friends and extended family. 

The examples of countries listed upthread that seem to have a better handle on poverty and low cost education have income tax rates near or above 50%.  I challenge any mustachian who wants our country to do the same to start now themselves.  Either bump up their own taxes by sending the difference above their legally obligated rate to the US Treasury or to take that difference and alleviate someone's poverty right near where they live.   I have no confidence that giving more of my money to the government to spend would accomplish anything besides a confused beaurocrat.  But I can easily endow a community college scholarship.  Probably many of us can, too.  It's ridiculously cheap.  In fact, it's where I went and where my BFF (now an ER doctor) started college.

There is a theme in these threads.  It's between a chicken-little-sky-is-falling-if-you-don't-elect-progressives versus pull-yourself-up-by-you-bootstraps kind of thinking.  I believe both miss the point.  People need help but there isn't a government system that is capable of doing it.  If you think we have a moral imperative, start with your own money.

You've inspired me.  My little brother needs to complete 15 more credits in order to get his Associates.  I just told him that upon completion I will reimburse him for his last year's tuition. 🙂

[EnjoyIt]

If we have ERE living in $14K a year and is happy and we have MMM living on $24K/yr and is happy, why can't a family of 3 live on two people earning minimum wage? $24K/yr?

At poverty their costs would go down. Section 8 housing as well food stamps.

Even if they work till 65, Social security will give them more than $24K a year.

mustachianism is exactly what these people need.  Not the latest cell phone or fancy car.

[matchewed]

It may not bring every person out of poverty but it would help everyone's financial situation if they were to focus on optimizing their finances.

[Frugal D]

I could save money on minimum wage. Outside of travel, I only spend about 9K/year right now, and I could cut that somewhat by ditching obvious fat like taking ballet lessons, going to the opera, and buying expensive snacks and groceries.

You only spend $9k per year and that includes ballet lessons, operas, and expensive snacks/groceries?

Do you pay rent or have a mortgage? 

[Yaeger]

I'd probably say that there's a lot of people here that don't make 6 figures. Some things I love about Mustachianism is that anyone could learn something from it, including the poor.
The good:
- Long-term planning is key to ensuring future happiness. "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail."
- Forced to analyze your short-term habits to meet your goals. Cutting your grocery bill, upping savings rate, killing unproductive habits like smoking or fancy coffee, etc.
- It encourages fiscal responsibility and less consumerism
- Everyone is helpful and it's a great community

The bad:
- Assuming that people 'want' to make our sacrifices, not everyone desires a frugal lifestyle.
- Early retirement is not beneficial to society, it's a selfish goal resulting in lost productivity
- Steep learning curve with higher-than-average financial risk, mitigated with time

The ugly:
- Me?

[Zikoris]

I could save money on minimum wage. Outside of travel, I only spend about 9K/year right now, and I could cut that somewhat by ditching obvious fat like taking ballet lessons, going to the opera, and buying expensive snacks and groceries.

You only spend $9k per year and that includes ballet lessons, operas, and expensive snacks/groceries?

Do you pay rent or have a mortgage?

I rent. This is not some extreme crazy lifestyle - it's just cutting a small portion of the insanity out of normal spending.

[MrsPete]

There are 46 million people living in poverty in the U.S., I have a hard time believing Mustachianism can bring the majority of them out of poverty.

Eh, I don't know.  People are complicated, and you can't sum up this question saying, "Look!  This will work!"  or, "No, not possible." 

I was a poor kid, and I got out of it through a combination of education and frugality.  I realized I could be different, be better, and I figured out how to do it. Anyone who had my circumstances could do it. Thing is, not everyone had my circumstances:  I was born with a healthy body, a good brain and white skin -- yeah, you can succeed without those things, but that combination does make things easier.  Perhaps as important as any other detail, I realized that I could do better when I was a teen; if I'd had this same thought at age 30, perhaps once I had children, debt, or a drug-addled husband, my ability to change things would've been severely hampered. 

Frugal living can help anyone get ahead.  Yeah, if you're making minimum wage, you're probably not going to save anything -- I didn't save a penny in college.  At that point my goal was simply to get a degree without debt.  Looking back, I'm not even sure how I did it.  But if a person on minimum wage can simply save $25, it's a win.  If that person can stockpile some canned goods on sale, it's a win.  You have to start where you are. 

And poor people are no dumber than anybody else.

Again, eh, I don't know.  Walk into a public high school AP math class and see who's enrolled.  Dollars to doughnuts, 80% of the students in that class'll be white, middle or upper class, headed to a university.  They'll be dressed nicely, driving their own cars to school, carrying their own TI-84 calculators in nice backpacks.  Then walk across the hall to remedial math.  You'll find the racial percentage flipped upside down.  You'll see that these kids all ride the bus to "the projects", and they don't bother to carry backpacks -- they don't bother with school supplies.  They use the school-provided calculators at school and have nothing at home.  They get free lunch at school and two outfits of clothing and a coat from the Junior League every year.  Sure, you'll find a couple middle class kids in remedial math, but they're the minority.  As a group, these kids read less, travel less, are less culturally aware. 

Are they dumber than other kids?  Yeah, in a use-it-or-lose-it type of way.  Their parents don't see much point in school -- never did them any good -- so they don't care much when their kids miss a class now and then.  Could they do better?  A whole lot of them could, but as teens they aren't interested in enhancing their study habits or catching up on their reading and math skills.  Many of them are behind grade level. 

I don't know if it's true in middle school or not, but look at the classes a student chooses to take in high school, and you can predict his socio-economic status with about 80% accuracy.  Don't get me wrong -- exceptions exist.  I was a poor kid, and I took AP classes.  Over the years I've known poor kids who've won full ride scholarships, and I've known wealthy kids who were not academically-oriented, but they're the exception instead of the rule. 

[forummm]

If we stripped the MMM family of all money and all assets, moved them to downtown Detroit or some other nightmare place to live, my guess is they would find a way to thrive and escape poverty in a short amount of time. In fact, now that I think of it that would make a great reality TV show (I imagine. I do not watch reality TV so I'm guessing here).

Yes, they'd get 6 figure jobs as engineers. Because they had a great education (a free one I think). And 10 years of experience at high wage jobs.

[ender]

If we have ERE living in $14K a year and is happy and we have MMM living on $24K/yr and is happy, why can't a family of 3 live on two people earning minimum wage? $24K/yr?

At poverty their costs would go down. Section 8 housing as well food stamps.

Even if they work till 65, Social security will give them more than $24K a year.

mustachianism is exactly what these people need.  Not the latest cell phone or fancy car.

mustachianism might be the treatment they need, but it is not the root cause solution to problems for people in poverty.

Keep in mind MMM is highly educated (and was when he was 22), lives in a paid for $200k+ house for free (well not included in the $24k spend) and has a huge safety net to afford things like minimal insurance and high deductibles for what he has. He has the income to pick where he wants to live, what city, neighborhood. He has the time to time to learn how to do do a lot of DIY things to save money (and write them off as business expenses...).

The situations are totally different, honestly.

[Cyaphas]

I'd probably say that there's a lot of people here that don't make 6 figures. Some things I love about Mustachianism is that anyone could learn something from it, including the poor.

The good:

The bad:

The ugly:

[libertarian4321]

I get it.

I grew up lower middle class (and that's an optimistic assessment, we qualified for, but never took, welfare).

I lived in a town with a small, but elite, liberal arts college.

I'm well aware that I was not competing on an even playing field with the kids who's mom was a HS science teacher and who's dad was a college professor (while my dad worked a nasty job fixing industrial boilers).  Kids who's parents understood the college admissions system, kids who could afford to take college prep and test prep courses, kids who could afford to go to any college they got admitted to, without having to take an ROTC scholarship and possibly get killed just to go to college.

That said, it is NOT impossible to move up in the USA.  Sure, it's harder than it is for the rich kid who has all the advantages, but it's not impossible.

How to level the playing field?  I don't know. 

My wife and I fund a couple of small scholarships at my old HS specifically for lower income kids going into STEM related college majors.  We also participate in science   That helps, but it surely doesn't even the playing field.

However, I don't think allowing any "C" student to go to college and run up ten's of thousands of dollars of expenses to study "Modern Dance" on the taxpayer's dime is a great idea.

If we must channel Bernie Sanders and allow "free" college, it should only be for TOP achievers going to study useful majors (engineering, science, medicine, business, economics, and the like), not every dip stick with a "C" average, a pulse, and a desire to study African American Womyn's Art Appreciation.

[Metric Mouse]

If we must channel Bernie Sanders and allow "free" college, it should only be for TOP achievers going to study useful majors (engineering, science, medicine, business, economics, and the like), not every dip stick with a "C" average, a pulse, and a desire to study African American Womyn's Art Appreciation.

wow...

[Letj]

I kind of disagree with both points to a degree. I live on the edge of the poorest postal code in Canada, and love it here - it's the oldest part of the city, with all kinds of cool architecture and small non-chain local businesses. The fact that it's cheap to live and close to work is icing on the cake. I think a lot of poor, "bad" neighbourhoods are really hyped up to be worse than they are in reality. Obviously this doesn't apply to places that are genuinely dangerous, but some food for thought.

I could save money on minimum wage. Outside of travel, I only spend about 9K/year right now, and I could cut that somewhat by ditching obvious fat like taking ballet lessons, going to the opera, and buying expensive snacks and groceries.

Dude, c'mon. I lived in Vancouver for a decade, the area you're describing isn't comparable to an American ghetto, relatively tiny, not a food desert, and adjacent to areas like Gastown and Chinatown, has a tonne of nice amenities and restaurants within a few minutes walk, etc.. etc...

On topic, yes I completely agree. Being frugal and being poor are different realities.

Sure, it's not comparable to a really rough ghetto, but my point is that there can be a certain amount of hysteria when it comes to poor neighbourhoods, and a lot of them really are not particularly dangerous, or bad places to live and raise a family.

That is very true and certainly applicable to American cities. There are indeed a lot of hype and misinformation that paint American cities as inherently dangerous. That can be true but mostly true for those who live dangerous and crime ridden lives. The vast majority of murders are among young urban males involved in the drug trade. The other crimes are usually petty crimes like stealing bicycles or domestic in nature. In fact over the years I have noticed a trend of hipsters moving and living among the so called dangerous people. I have seen this trend throughout New York City where I once lived and to a lesser extent in the city I now live. They seemed to have done fine and completely transformed some neighborhoods.

[Letj]

And yet it seems to work in many countries and somehow their economies do not collapse. Wonder why? Oh wait . . . maybe they realize trickle down economics doesn't work and fear mongering is just that, a fear mongering smoke screen.

It works because these countries have much more control than the US does. For example they can dictate how much they would pay for drugs, universities are mostly public and they have rules requiring food manufacturers to produce more wholesome foods than the US. If the US required elimination of certain chemicals in food, eradication of antibiotic in live stocks for example, corporations would react by raising their prices so they can consistently deliver the results Wall Street and their shareholders want to see, never mind that they may still be profitable but they need to keep growing profits.

[EnjoyIt]

And yet it seems to work in many countries and somehow their economies do not collapse. Wonder why? Oh wait . . . maybe they realize trickle down economics doesn't work and fear mongering is just that, a fear mongering smoke screen.

It works because these countries have much more control than the US does. For example they can dictate how much they would pay for drugs, universities are mostly public and they have rules requiring food manufacturers to produce more wholesome foods than the US. If the US required elimination of certain chemicals in food, eradication of antibiotic in live stocks for example, corporations would react by raising their prices so they can consistently deliver the results Wall Street and their shareholders want to see, never mind that they may still be profitable but they need to keep growing profits.

And without growing profits none of us would be able to FIRE.

[Singuy]

To the OP

You have to study immigrants to see how true mustachianism work for lower income workers.

My parents both came not knowing the language(my mom still doesn't know English). My mom start working 12h/day, 6 days a week cleaning dishes in a Chinese restaurant making 800 dollars/month in 1989. That's 2.77, WAY below the min wage. They took advantage at the fact that she doesn't yet have a working permit. My dad was making 800/month working 40h a week. Eventually my mom climbed out of that job and became a full time waitress, making about 2k/month. Dad had 3 jobs, 1 full time and 2 part time, making about 3k/month. 

My mom would save 60% of our income DESPITE how much we made. When our influx was 1600/month..we lived with roommates, never turned on the A/C at 90+ Floridian weather living on the second floor. When we were making about 5k/year as a family..we lived with roaches but got our own place.

Our furniture were mostly dumpster dived, and my toys were all from garage sales. In fact I don't ever remember getting any toy at a retail store.

Their frugality to the extreme led them to make an investment in a motel, worked it almost 24/7 themselves with no help for 4 years straight..and at 50 they were FI. Now their net worth is about 1.8 million

We took advantage the following government programs.
1. Free lunch at school for myself till middle school
2. Free public schooling

We received no food stamps, no subsidized housing, no welfare check.

My parents had all the disadvantage possible (not knowing the language, worked at min wage or pretty close to it throughout their lives until the motel).

Their  advantage includes
1. mustachianism ...which was beaten into them during the Chinese cultural revolution. And this is permenant, they are still frugal to the extreme with current net worth
2. Have very low standards when it comes to lifestyle. This is what happens when you come from a poorer country

It was a tough life under their conditions..but they made it through hardcore saving and hardcore work.

[sokoloff]

You have to study immigrants to see how true mustachianism work for lower income workers.
...
Their frugality to the extreme led them to make an investment in a motel, worked it almost 24/7 themselves with no help for 4 years straight..and at 50 they were FI. Now their net worth is about 1.8 million

Damned lazy immigrants coming here and stealing our jobs... /s

(Tongue firmly in cheek, in case it's not obvious. Congrats and hats off to your family...)

[Letj]

And yet it seems to work in many countries and somehow their economies do not collapse. Wonder why? Oh wait . . . maybe they realize trickle down economics doesn't work and fear mongering is just that, a fear mongering smoke screen.

It works because these countries have much more control than the US does. For example they can dictate how much they would pay for drugs, universities are mostly public and they have rules requiring food manufacturers to produce more wholesome foods than the US. If the US required elimination of certain chemicals in food, eradication of antibiotic in live stocks for example, corporations would react by raising their prices so they can consistently deliver the results Wall Street and their shareholders want to see, never mind that they may still be profitable but they need to keep growing profits.

And without growing profits none of us would be able to FIRE.

I completely agree and I am not complaining. I am certainly a beneficiary of such an economy.  However, people who live in social democracies don't appear to be in a hurry to FIRE since their society is a cradle to grave society and provides them with ample time off and they are much less stressed than Americans. I don't know if I would be in such a hurry to FIRE if I can get 6 t0 8 weeks off straight and a less than 40 hour work week.

[kite]

We helped 2 teen moms get through college, bought them cars, books & helped with housing.  We became honorary grandparents to their kids. 

That is awesome! Did the school just assign you to random people in need?

We knew these two already through our community.  Their lives were scarred by addiction, and dropping out of high school + teen pregnancy just seemed like a recipie for entrenched, lifelong poverty.  I called one on her birthday when her baby was 4 months old and promised her a car if she took her GED, enrolled in community college and got four semesters on the honor roll, either one class at a time or going full time, her choice.  She is now an RN, the mother of a brilliant teenage boy.   

My spouse and I grew up poor, bought a starter home a mere six houses away from the projects.  By midlife, I'd become quite successful but we never moved away from the poor people who are our friends and extended family. 

The examples of countries listed upthread that seem to have a better handle on poverty and low cost education have income tax rates near or above 50%.  I challenge any mustachian who wants our country to do the same to start now themselves.  Either bump up their own taxes by sending the difference above their legally obligated rate to the US Treasury or to take that difference and alleviate someone's poverty right near where they live.   I have no confidence that giving more of my money to the government to spend would accomplish anything besides a confused beaurocrat.  But I can easily endow a community college scholarship.  Probably many of us can, too.  It's ridiculously cheap.  In fact, it's where I went and where my BFF (now an ER doctor) started college.

There is a theme in these threads.  It's between a chicken-little-sky-is-falling-if-you-don't-elect-progressives versus pull-yourself-up-by-you-bootstraps kind of thinking.  I believe both miss the point.  People need help but there isn't a government system that is capable of doing it.  If you think we have a moral imperative, start with your own money.

Out of curiosity is it that you think the countries listed above do not have a better handle on poverty? Or that you do not think the government in the U.S. Would be as efficient in providing whatever services the other countries provide and thus think personal charity is better?

It's a specious argument to claim we can replicate what Scandinavian countries have done and see the same results in a country as large, ethnically and culturally diverse as ours; particularly one that is both a net taker of immigrants and plays the predominant role in global security and stability.  It's far more complicated than would fit into a forum reply.  Guns, Germs & Steel is a long book, but it only scratches the surface of why there is disparate wealth between nations.

In terms of the efficiency with which the US government can address poverty, I actually think they do a great job today.  Between SS, SSDI, WIC, SNAP, Pell Grants and subsidized student loans, Medicare, Medicaid & the ACA, we have an excellent set of safety nets.  I don't believe it could be much better, however, from the government.  Even among the billionaires who think taxes should be higher, they don't turn over their excess to the federal government to manage.  They give it to the Gates, Clinton or Robinhood Foundations or to the UNCF, recognizing that private charity IS more effective for things that are worthy, but beyond the reach of governments. 

[rocketpj]

At some points in my life I've lived on almost nothing (with the caveat that I owned the boat I lived on, which was $12K to buy at the time).  I've known people who've lived on float homes in Clayoquot Sound or in remote cabins who almost live cash free, and have done for decades.  It can be done, and they would reject the label of 'poor'. 

But most of them, funnily enough, came from education and middle class backgrounds.  Very few grew up poor - that is a different experience, and presents a different set of choices.  Like the clickdown menu has fewer options, and many are never told or learn about anything that isn't on that list.

I've always been willing to up and move across the country when it suited me, or to another country.  Some people aren't, and remain poor in my hometown.  Not sure if it's some kind of choice blindness, or just being comfortable with what they know.

[winkeyman]

I believe that Mustacianism can and will work for the majority of those who are chronically poor and on the lower end of working class.

The primary Mustachian trait that will help the poor is the all-important imperative to Not Buy Stupid Shit.

I went to a high school that was very economically diverse. A lot of students lived in a nice upper middle class suburb, and a lot of students lived in very neighborhoods, and others (like myself) fell somewhere in the middle.

The kids from the tip top of the high-income bracket often had expensive clothes and other belongings. The bottom half of the top bracket, and most of the middle bracket wore clothes from Target or similar. The kids from the lowest bracket always had expensive clothes and accessories. It was comical to see a brother/sister combo getting dropped off by their parents driving a $1000 car with $1000 rims wearing $2000 worth of LV, Armani, and Nike gear.

My mom is a middle school teacher in the same area I went to high school. Her favorite story from this year is a kid (6th grader) who was bragging about his new $200 Air Jordans the same week his parents couldn't afford $20 for a field trip to a museum, and the same month his parents told them he was unable to do some homework at home because the power company turned their off for non-payment. This kind of thing is a common occurrence in her school.

Mustachianism is all about priorities. Many poor and working class Americans have their priorities back-asswards.

[StarBright]

I've always been willing to up and move across the country when it suited me, or to another country.  Some people aren't, and remain poor in my hometown.  Not sure if it's some kind of choice blindness, or just being comfortable with what they know.

Rocketpj, I think it is a combination of those two things as well as culture and support systems making moving highly undesirable and practically unfeasible.

My white collar middle class parents chose to raise us in the relatively poor and blue collar area where they grew up (so we wouldn't forget our roots). So I grew up with a weird combination of being told I must go to college by my parents and my guidance counselors encouraging me to apply at FedEx upon graduation because I could work my way up to shift manager real quick. When I expressed an in interest in attending  schools out of state they didn't know how/wouldn't  help me and made clear that they thought I was a snob and uppity. My GPA mysteriously dropped several tenths right before I sent out my early decision application - 15 years later I'm still convinced they did it on purpose to keep me in my place. All that to say that the culture of an area is SO strong and structured to maintain the status quo. The only way I got around it was having educated parents who helped me research what to do to achieve my goals.

Most of my friends from highschool took the jobs at FedEx and the GM Plant and the airport and married their high school sweethearts who left them, or died in Afghanistan, or ended up in jail for abuse or drugs, etc. (some of my friends did go to college but I bet I couldn't name 10 who finished their degrees). Most of these wonderful, kind, hardworking women now have children and they are each other's support systems. My friends from growng up essentially run their own childcare co-op, help each other with food, handymanning, living situations etc. Moving across the country for a better job means these women lose their entire support network.

Sorry for the long post - I get a bit worked up about the "anyone can do it" mentality at times. Sure "anyone" might be able to do it, but statistically everyone can't do it. It is hard to rise above your background and while I do think we should laud those that do, we don't have to denigrate those that don't (not saying you were- but it certainly happens on these boards).

[MrDelane]

I get a bit worked about the "anyone can do it" mentality at times. Sure "anyone" might be able to do it, but statistically everyone can't do it. It is hard to rise above your background and while I do think we should laud those that do, we don't have to denigrate those that don't (not saying you were- but it certainly happens on these boards).

Well said.

[MrMoogle]

So far only the financial aspects of the Mustache have been talked about.  The philosophical ones would, IMO, lead to the biggest improvement.  Again, not to everyone, but to many.

[EnjoyIt]

I get a bit worked about the "anyone can do it" mentality at times. Sure "anyone" might be able to do it, but statistically everyone can't do it. It is hard to rise above your background and while I do think we should laud those that do, we don't have to denigrate those that don't (not saying you were- but it certainly happens on these boards).

Well said.

Yes, anyone can do it. Unfortunately not everyone is smart enough, hard working enough, and have a supportive family to motivate success.

Yes, it may be easier for someone to succeed if they are lucky enough to start better of. The ladder isn't as talk when you begin halfway up it. But the American Dream is still alive and anyone can be successful in this country.

[stoaX]

Kite said "Guns, Germs & Steel is a long book, but it only scratches the surface of why there is disparate wealth between nations."  You're right - it was a long book!  But worth it. 

and "In terms of the efficiency with which the US government can address poverty, I actually think they do a great job today.  Between SS, SSDI, WIC, SNAP, Pell Grants and subsidized student loans, Medicare, Medicaid & the ACA, we have an excellent set of safety nets.  I don't believe it could be much better, however, from the government."     

I think you're right.  The 2 very poor people I know about have all this available to them but only sporadically access these benefits...in no way do they take full advantage of what's available.  One of them complains that the hassle of the applications, etc...just aren't worth it.  The other seems to have a chaotic life that gets in the way of using these programs.