Does anyone know MMM's stance on veganism?

[Retire-Canada]

That's kinda the definition of being vegan . . . you have to constantly tell people that you're vegan.  :P

You'll never not know a friend is a vegan or a triathlete. ;)

[Sailor Sam]

I find it funny that you criticize the analytical discussion up to this point regarding the nutritional studies and yet conclude your post with the idea that we should conduct a study. I understand it was tongue-in-cheek, but what good does it do for public health if our nutritional sciences aren't analyzed properly?

I was saying we should conduct a psychological study, asking why humans frequently believe their particular solution is automatically the best solution for all other humans.

[lifeanon269]

I was saying we should conduct a psychological study, asking why humans frequently believe their particular solution is automatically the best solution for all other humans.

I understood what you were saying. There is a big difference between using the scientific method to further our understanding of a given field versus simply using anecdotal evidence to conclude "everyone is different" and refusing to investigate anything beyond that. The closer we are to the former the better.

[gaja]

I find it funny that you criticize the analytical discussion up to this point regarding the nutritional studies and yet conclude your post with the idea that we should conduct a study. I understand it was tongue-in-cheek, but what good does it do for public health if our nutritional sciences aren't analyzed properly?

I was saying we should conduct a psychological study, asking why humans frequently believe their particular solution is automatically the best solution for all other humans.

One of the reasons that humans can survive in so many different climate and environments, is that we have a large variation in geno- and phenotypes. The long and thin maasai would have a harder time surviving in the arctic, than the inuit and sami people who have developed shorter limbs and more fat deposits. The maasai would also need to eat a lot of vitamine D rich food to avoid osteoporosis. Thanks to clothes and other tools, we can survive in a lot of different climates, but some of us are better adapted to some climates than others. Being lactose tolerant is another example of a genetic adaptation than is not present in all human populations.

I'm sure we can find a diet that is the best solution for the average person, and it might very well be that this diet is rich is vegetables. Call it the 0 hypothesis if you want. But with the large variation we humans have, I don't understand why someone would think that one diet fits everyone. People with organic acidemias can get brain damage if they eat too much protein, while people with carnitine transporter deficiency will die if they don't get enough red meat and fish. Both of these are rare in most populations, but some places they are much more common. Also, these are just a few examples of rare disorders that require a specific diet to handle. I have relatives with CTD, where the family was diagnosed when the children moved away from home and changed their diet from red meat and fish to more vegetables and white meat, resulting in fatigue and death. Genetic biotin deficiency is another example of a disorder where a vegetarian diet is not advisable.

[Dicey]

That's kinda the definition of being vegan . . . you have to constantly tell people that you're vegan.  :P

You'll never not know a friend anyone is a vegan or a triathlete. ;)

Fixed that for you.

[arebelspy]

That's kinda the definition of being vegan . . . you have to constantly tell people that you're vegan.  :P

You'll never not know a friend anyone is a vegan or a triathlete. ;)

Fixed that for you.

I'm sure there are many, many people out there that are vegans or triathletes and I have no idea.

[Metric Mouse]

Every time I see this thread, my head screams "Who cares?" and "Why should it matter?" and "Why is this thread four freaking pages long now?"

Don't be upset.  Some people are very concerned about what other people are putting in their mouths.

I think some people are very concerned about justifying to others what they put in their mouths. This would apply to both sides of such debates.

[GuitarStv]

For example, Dr. Greger makes the claim about animal fat crippling arteries based on the study that was linked to because of the fact that animal fat was the specific type of fat that was used within the study (they only tested with animal fat). You can't take a study sample and extrapolate that to say that "all fats can potentially cripple arteries" even if that may in fact be true. So in this case, Dr. Greger makes the correct scientific conclusion by saying specifically that animal fats cripple arterial function because the testing of non-animal fats and arterial function were never tested for specifically in the study.

The study quoted (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9036757) concludes that "These results demonstrate that a single high-fat meal transiently impairs endothelial function".

- If only animal fat was used in the study, it isn't known if animal fat is crippling the arteries at a greater or lesser rate than any other kind of fat.  Greger is using this point in his advocacy of a vegan diet without knowing if the fats from plants (avocados, coconuts, nuts, etc.) do exactly the same thing or worse.  It's probably why the study itself only mentions 'fat' and not 'animal fat'.  That's very misleading of Greger, and is absolutely not the 'correct scientific conclusion' to make.  If not all the data is in and we don't know if animal fat is better/worse/the same as plant fat, it is ethically wrong to suggest a change in diet the way that Greger does.

- Notice that the study doesn't make a claim as to the long term effect on arteries as Gregor does . . . only that there is momentary effect.  That's Gregor making claims not supported in the study.

High fiber diets are great.  That doesn't mean that you need to go vegan.  Antioxidants are good for you too.  That doesn't mean you need to go vegan.  These studies don't prove what was being claimed.

I agree, those studies showed how diets high in fiber/antioxidants can help prevent COPD, which is exactly the hypothesis that Dr. Greger mentioned in the video. He simply mentioned how "a plant-based diet can help prevent COPD." Those studies absolutely support that statement because a plant-based diet is a diet that is high in fiber and antioxidants.

This is another very misleading statement that Greger has chosen to use.  The type of diet is what Greger focuses his (incorrect) statement on, omitting the information from the studies.

A healthy vegan, vegetarian, or simply a healthy omnivorous diet will all be high in fiber and antioxidants.  An extremely unhealthy version of each will produce the opposite (it's totally possible to be vegan on an oreo only diet . . . as oreos have no animal proucts in them, they are entirely plant-based).  Notice that being plant-based or not has nothing to do with consuming anti-oxidants or fiber.  That's why the studies referenced didn't support his claim.

Again, you've failed to show studies that explain how Dr. Greger cherry picks information (studies that show eating meat is better or equal to not eating meat at all). In order for Dr. Greger to cherry pick his studies, there would need to be statistically significant studies (meta-analysis) that show that there is no difference between those who include meat in there diet, versus those who don't include any meat in there diet at all. So far there hasn't been anything peer-reviewed that shows that in any medical journal. You would need numerous studies that show to a statiscally significant level that there is no continual benefit to decreasing the amount of meat consumed in a diet. In other words, you'd need to show that there is no difference in cardiovascular health between those who eat meat and those who do not.

I haven't shown studies that demonstrate that eating meat is better than not eating meat at all because that's not something that I'm arguing.  This is a total straw man.

As far as cherry picking data goes  . . . Greger either ignores or is unaware of studies that contradict his personal view that veganism is best.  This very comprehensive study of eating habits for example
(http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/516s.full) indicates:

"Mortality from ischemic heart disease among the vegans was slightly higher than among the fish eaters and the vegetarians"

and

"In conclusion, vegetarians had a 24% lower mortality from ischemic heart disease than nonvegetarians, but no associations of a vegetarian diet with other major causes of death were established."

The point of that last study I referenced to was to point out that Dr. Greger accounts for the idea that maybe it could be possible to lead a healthy life if you included even just a little bit of meat in the diet. However, it was shown that even with a little bit of meat in the diet (the amount of meat in the cohort's diet's were small), there is a clear statistically significant benefit in leaving the meat out of the diet altogether when it comes to the risk factors and disease outcomes (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088547). So while in relative terms, compared to the average American, there might be benefits of moving to a diet that includes very little meat, there appears to be a linear benefit in regards to overall meat consumption and health.

I don't agree with your interpretation of that study.
- It shows only that there may be a correlation between eating meat and glucose metabolism.  - It is a study of vegetarians and meat eaters . . . there's no evidence of any sort regarding a vegan diet.
- The study authors themselves indicate:
"While our findings suggest a negative association between a vegetarian diet and diabetes/IFG, the temporal association is unclear due to the cross-sectional nature of the study. Although we have accounted for several confounders in our models, it is likely that other residual confounders still remain. The null association between LTPA and diabetes may have been influenced by reverse causation, as diabetes individuals may have increased physical activities in order to manage their disease. The measurements of body fat by Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis should be interpreted with caution as it has a poor accuracy for estimating absolute body composition "

So the less meat in your diet, the better the health outcomes, all the way up to and including foregoing meat altogether.

This claim is at best tangentially supported by the study you referenced.

[GuitarStv]

All that said, it's sort of irrelevant to Greger's message anyway, which pushes veganism.  The study compares vegetarians to people who eat meat.  Vegetarianism is not veganism, the two diets are quite different.  This seems self evident, but you appear to have conflated the two several times already in your posts.

It is irrelevant because of the fact that the mountain of evidence in the medical literature that shows that eating a plant-based diet not only prevents disease, but can reverse disease.

Hang on.  I'm going to need your definition of 'plant-based diet' please.  Generally, I assume that this means a vegan diet, with no animal products.

I'm not aware of a mountain of evidence that shows that a vegan diet is miles better than a vegetarian diet health-wise.  As far as the prevention of disease claim . . . can you list the diseases that a vegan diet fixes that a vegetarian diet will not?

This is what I don't understand. There is a mountain of evidence that shows biological mechanisms of action regarding the onset of disease and meat intake. There are statistically significant studies that show that the less meat you eat, the better the health outcomes. There are meta-analyses that show the combined effort of these studies giving enough weight to these statistical outcomes to remove sampling errors. Yet, with all this, we still operate under the assumption that an "optimal diet" is some "grey area" diet that is "well balanced" to include food from all sources, whether it is from animals or plants. This is what I find baffling.

I'm not aware of a significant number of studies that show eating a healthy diet with some fish is significantly worse for you, or that a healthy vegetarian diet is significantly worse than a vegan one.  Can you provide some of this mountain of data to educate me on the matter?

It isn't that I don't think someone can live a life eating 1 steak meal a week and be completely healthy and live to 100 without any problems. That isn't what I am trying to say and if you want to live you're life like that, for all intents and purposes you'll likely live a life free from America's top killers.  What I am trying to say is that the optimal diet (meaning a linear progression toward the lowest occurrence of preventable disease) should be seen as a whole foods plant-based diet. Until that becomes our null hypothesis, then statistics will continue to be abused to say otherwise much like it was before "smoking causes lung disease" became our null hypothesis when conducting studies related to cigarettes.

Do you have any evidence to support your claims?  We do know that eating lots of red meat is bad.  I don't doubt that a healthy vegan diet is great for you.  Where I get a little bit confused is comparing a healthy vegan diet to a healthy vegetarian diet, or a healthy vegan diet to a healthy diet where only fish is eaten occasionally, etc.  To the best of my knowledge there isn't information that comes anywhere close to conclusively proving that one is better than the other.

Until there is, why should a vegan diet be considered the null hypothesis over one of these other diets?

[blizeH]

I'm assuming he's a raging hypocrite on this issue, like me and virtually everyone else here.

Guilty.

Actually, I think not being vegan is the biggest moral failing I have (among many candidates), and the only one I don't try to improve on. In fact, I do the opposite, and actively try to avoid thinking about it. 

For example, I try to be more honest, more generous, etc. every year.  But I don't try to eat no meat.

I'm such an asshole.

Thanks for calling it like it is, as always, Sol.

You're not an asshole at all, you just do what everyone else does, and what we've been told all our lives we should do. It's just the way of things, circle of life etc. I love how you and sol have tried to bring balance to the discussion throughout the thread by the way!

Just a side note, you don't have to go fully vegan or anything like that to make a difference, you can just try ditching meat/dairy from the occasional meal, or next time you're in the supermarket just pick up a single Gardein product you like the look of and give it a try, or Ben and Jerries dairy free ice creams etc.

[arebelspy]

What's Gardein?

[pbkmaine]

What's Gardein?

It's a processed meat substitute.

[arebelspy]

Ah.  Like a brand name tofu?

[blizeH]

I'm not in the US, but assumed you were, sorry if I've got that wrong :) As pbk said it's a meat alternative available in America. I've only tried it once, but it's so much better than tofu!

[dividendman]

Hopefully this entire discussion becomes moot when we can grow the meat without the animal in a cost-effective manner. Then everyone can enjoy meat without  having to kill animals.

[arebelspy]

Hopefully this entire discussion becomes moot when we can grow the meat without the animal in a cost-effective manner. Then everyone can enjoy meat without  having to kill animals.

Lab synthesized meat will be huge in the coming decades.

[blizeH]

Plant based meats will be huge too I think. In particular those replacing processed, red meats will be much healthier.

[big_slacker]

Ah.  Like a brand name tofu?

Tofu is less processed and healthier than the gardein stuff. It's a wheat gluten based meat substitute that's fairly cheap and widely available, they have it in wal-mart and kroger stores around here. Beyond meat is another one that uses pea protein as the primary.

I have them every once in a while almost always as a post workout meal. They have a good serving of protein and are tasty. But they're fairly junk-foody so I wouldn't use them as any kind of staple. Best use IMO is for someone who wants to eat less meat or switch over to being vegetarian/vegan but can't yet get their head around not having meat with every meal. Or for when big meat eaters come over to your house and you want to cook them something. I did this for my dad who came over last week.

In terms of healthy vegan vs healthy plant slant with some fish vs healthy vegetarian I think there isn't too much to argue about. It should be obvious that comparing a healthy whole foods vegan diet to the standard American diet is flawed. It's more to the point to compare something like the Okinawan 'blue zone' diet (heavily veg based with very small fish and pork intake) to whole foods vegan. I think you'd find that they both have similarly low rates of disease and longer, healthier lives.

All that aside, it always cracks me up when people try to come up with some science death match to find the one true 'best' way to do something when there is so obviously more than one way to reach the goal which is a individual and environmental health. :)

[Metric Mouse]

Plant based meats will be huge too I think. In particular those replacing processed, red meats will be much healthier.

That even looks terrible. I hope it tastes better than it appears.

[GuitarStv]

To me, the only terrible looking part is the pink 'beef' on the inside.  That said, my experience with vegan and vegetarian foods has let me to believe that trying to replace meat with plant stuff just doesn't work well for most foods (there's usually something that's a little off, and not quite right).  Dishes that were designed from the ground up to be vegetarian or vegan tend to taste much better.

[GreenSheep]

To me, the only terrible looking part is the pink 'beef' on the inside.  That said, my experience with vegan and vegetarian foods has let me to believe that trying to replace meat with plant stuff just doesn't work well for most foods (there's usually something that's a little off, and not quite right).  Dishes that were designed from the ground up to be vegetarian or vegan tend to taste much better.

I completely agree. I've had so many people tell me they could never be vegan/vegetarian because they can't stand that fake meat and cheese, or even tofu. I'm vegan and I don't eat any of that stuff! (Occasionally tofu, but usually just when I'm stuck eating out and it's the only option for me.) I would so much rather eat a real, whole food and enjoy it for what it is.

[golden1]

One of the reasons that humans can survive in so many different climate and environments, is that we have a large variation in geno- and phenotypes. The long and thin maasai would have a harder time surviving in the arctic, than the inuit and sami people who have developed shorter limbs and more fat deposits. The maasai would also need to eat a lot of vitamine D rich food to avoid osteoporosis. Thanks to clothes and other tools, we can survive in a lot of different climates, but some of us are better adapted to some climates than others. Being lactose tolerant is another example of a genetic adaptation than is not present in all human populations.

I'm sure we can find a diet that is the best solution for the average person, and it might very well be that this diet is rich is vegetables. Call it the 0 hypothesis if you want. But with the large variation we humans have, I don't understand why someone would think that one diet fits everyone. People with organic acidemias can get brain damage if they eat too much protein, while people with carnitine transporter deficiency will die if they don't get enough red meat and fish. Both of these are rare in most populations, but some places they are much more common. Also, these are just a few examples of rare disorders that require a specific diet to handle. I have relatives with CTD, where the family was diagnosed when the children moved away from home and changed their diet from red meat and fish to more vegetables and white meat, resulting in fatigue and death. Genetic biotin deficiency is another example of a disorder where a vegetarian diet is not advisable.

Agreed.  Diet isn't religion.  There is no one fits all diet for everyone.  But everyone could probably stand to eat more vegetables and less meat. 

[Metric Mouse]

To me, the only terrible looking part is the pink 'beef' on the inside.  That said, my experience with vegan and vegetarian foods has let me to believe that trying to replace meat with plant stuff just doesn't work well for most foods (there's usually something that's a little off, and not quite right).  Dishes that were designed from the ground up to be vegetarian or vegan tend to taste much better.

Yeah, that was the part that got me.

[Dicey]

To me, the only terrible looking part is the pink 'beef' on the inside.  That said, my experience with vegan and vegetarian foods has let me to believe that trying to replace meat with plant stuff just doesn't work well for most foods (there's usually something that's a little off, and not quite right).  Dishes that were designed from the ground up to be vegetarian or vegan tend to taste much better.

Oh, you are preaching to the choir! I grew up in a heavily Seventh Day Adventist area. We were near a Loma Linda Campus and used to love going to their grocery store. There was a copycat product for everything! When I became a vegetarian (I'm not SDA), I just stopped eating meat. I don't need fake bacon or tofurkey to stay on track. I do buy Boca Crumbles for myself when the family has Taco Night, but otherwise, meh, I don't bother with substitutes much.

[Metta]

To me, the only terrible looking part is the pink 'beef' on the inside.  That said, my experience with vegan and vegetarian foods has let me to believe that trying to replace meat with plant stuff just doesn't work well for most foods (there's usually something that's a little off, and not quite right).  Dishes that were designed from the ground up to be vegetarian or vegan tend to taste much better.

Oh, you are preaching to the choir! I grew up in a heavily Seventh Day Adventist area. We were near a Loma Linda Campus and used to love going to their grocery store. There was a copycat product for everything! When I became a vegetarian (I'm not SDA), I just stopped eating meat. I don't need fake bacon or tofurkey to stay on track. I do buy Boca Crumbles for myself when the family has Taco Night, but otherwise, meh, I don't bother with substitutes much.

I became a vegetarian when there really wasn't much available in terms of fake meats or cheeses. Loma Linda had some canned products (that tasted really bad to us) and dried TVP was available but that was pretty much it. So I learned to cook well as a vegetarian and then as a vegan and that is how we mostly ate for about twenty years. In the 90s the world exploded with vegan junk food and I succumbed to it. There is something undeniably addictive about junk food, the vegan kind is just as bad. We are going back to our roots now with whole grains, beans, potatoes, vegetables, fruits, and a bit of olive oil. It's comforting. And also a lot cheaper.

[vegan-up-world]

MMM is a complete hypocrite.  Oh the environment, oh equality and social justice.  Blah, blah, blah. HYPOCRITE. If he wants to practice what he preaches, being vegan is the baseline.
Vegan-up-world.

[OurTown]

Wow, you signed up just to bump this old thread?  Good luck to you.  I will now go eat a ribeye in your honor.

[GuitarStv]

MMM is a complete hypocrite.  Oh the environment, oh equality and social justice.  Blah, blah, blah. HYPOCRITE. If he wants to practice what he preaches, being vegan is the baseline.
Vegan-up-world.

I think that you can successfully make the argument that eating meat is generally a worse choice for the environment that eating plant based foods.

Can you explain how it is bad for equality and social justice though?  I don't see the connection.

[vegan-up-world]

It has been proven that there is enough food on earth to feed every last man, woman, and child. Yet, if this is the case, why do people around the world continue to starve? The answer to that question lies in large part with the production of animal-based foods, such as meat, dairy, and eggs. Even though there are enough plant-based foods grown to feed the entire human population, the majority of crops (including those grown in countries where people are starving) are fed to livestock for affluent nations, and since the amount of animal-based food produced by the farming industry is much less than the amount of plant food put into it, there is a “diminished return on the investment,” the food supply dwindles, and humans end up going hungry.

http://gentleworld.org/could-veganism-end-world-hunger/

[vegan-up-world]

Ourtown: yeah, that makes sense.  Whenever someone tells me about an injustice, or act that causes unnecessary suffering, I always counter with "I'm going to go home and do MORE of that! Just to get even....." um, okay? Are you 4 y.o?

[sol]

It has been proven that there is enough food on earth to feed every last man, woman, and child. Yet, if this is the case, why do people around the world continue to starve?

World hunger has almost nothing to do with food production, just like homelessness has almost nothing to do with a lack of houses.  America has more empty houses than it has homeless people, and yet we still have homeless people, right?  Because those houses belong to people who want money, and homeless people don't have money to buy them.  World hunger works the exact same way.  It's not an issue of not having enough food to go around, it's an issue of capitalism not being able to efficiently distribute it to the people who need it.

[availablelight]

MMM is a complete hypocrite.  Oh the environment, oh equality and social justice.  Blah, blah, blah. HYPOCRITE. If he wants to practice what he preaches, being vegan is the baseline.
Vegan-up-world.

No.

World hunger has almost nothing to do with food production, just like homelessness has almost nothing to do with a lack of houses.  America has more empty houses than it has homeless people, and yet we still have homeless people, right?  Because those houses belong to people who want money, and homeless people don't have money to buy them.  World hunger works the exact same way.  It's not an issue of not having enough food to go around, it's an issue of capitalism not being able to efficiently distribute it to the people who need it.

The places that lack for food these days also tend to lack for capitalism.

[sol]

The places that lack for food these days also tend to lack for capitalism.

Or a little too much capitalism, depending on how you look at it.

[partgypsy]

Well Vegan up-world certainly fulfilled the typical stereotype of vegans being preachy and judgemental.

[OurTown]

Sounds like my son, who is not only vegan, but also a Communist!

[partgypsy]

I think diet is almost becoming like religion, in that if you follow something non-normative you can be attacked for it and also it seems maybe better not to bring up.

I'm an omnivore. However I still practice lent which means essentially a vegan diet (except shellfish) for 6 weeks. Despite my best efforts I end up losing weight and by the end of it feel weak (it's good for me spiritually though). I am prone to iron deficiency anemia. I became severely anemic when I was eating meat about once or twice a month, and donated blood. I became so anemic they thought I might have blood or bone cancer. I even had a dietician review my diet and said since my diet was rich in non-animal iron, that I must have a problem absorbing anything but animal based iron. I also know from experience if I cheat and include a little dairy during Lent, I feel orders better than strictly removing all dairy and eggs.

So based on my own experiences I would fail at being vegan long-term. I do believe there are individual differences and some people can do amazing on veganism and probably feel that since they did then everyone could. I do believe pretty much everyone could probably get by on eating meat once a week, eat dairy and eggs but lesser amounts, and both greatly reduce the "load" on the earth while experiencing better health. The caveat is if they replace the animal-based calories with beans, whole grains, vegetables and fruits. A big "If".

And it should be noted that vegan, vegetarian etc are not scientific terms. omnivore, herbivore, carnivore are scientific terms. Humans are definitely in the "omnivore" category. We evolved to eat a wide variety of foodstuffs. For example humans cannot synthetize B-12, and must get it from (typically animal) sources. There are some other micronutrients not as well known which are deficient in people following a pure vegan diet.

[GuitarStv]

Sounds like my son, who is not only vegan, but also a Communist!

I view communism (much like it's inverse, libertarianism) as something that it is healthy to dabble in during one's youth.  It's only when you fail to grow up and recognize the fatal flaws with the philosophy later in life that I would start to get worried.

It has been proven that there is enough food on earth to feed every last man, woman, and child. Yet, if this is the case, why do people around the world continue to starve? The answer to that question lies in large part with the production of animal-based foods, such as meat, dairy, and eggs. Even though there are enough plant-based foods grown to feed the entire human population, the majority of crops (including those grown in countries where people are starving) are fed to livestock for affluent nations, and since the amount of animal-based food produced by the farming industry is much less than the amount of plant food put into it, there is a “diminished return on the investment,” the food supply dwindles, and humans end up going hungry.

http://gentleworld.org/could-veganism-end-world-hunger/

Was this in response to my question?

As sol mentioned, world hunger has little to do with availability of food.  I don't agree that veganism would end it.  From everything that I"ve seen, lack of equality and inconsistent application of social justice is much more to blame for world hunger than animal products. 

I asked how eating meat is bad for equality and social justice and was hoping for a reasoned answer.

[Zikoris]

I'm an omnivore. However I still practice lent which means essentially a vegan diet (except shellfish) for 6 weeks. Despite my best efforts I end up losing weight and by the end of it feel weak (it's good for me spiritually though). I am prone to iron deficiency anemia. I became severely anemic when I was eating meat about once or twice a month, and donated blood. I became so anemic they thought I might have blood or bone cancer. I even had a dietician review my diet and said since my diet was rich in non-animal iron, that I must have a problem absorbing anything but animal based iron. I also know from experience if I cheat and include a little dairy during Lent, I feel orders better than strictly removing all dairy and eggs.

That's pretty interesting given that milk doesn't have iron in it.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

MMM is a complete hypocrite.  Oh the environment, oh equality and social justice.  Blah, blah, blah. HYPOCRITE. If he wants to practice what he preaches, being vegan is the baseline.
Vegan-up-world.

Oh look! It's every omnivore's negative stereotype about veganism personified! Welcome, so glad you could join us.

[partgypsy]

I'm an omnivore. However I still practice lent which means essentially a vegan diet (except shellfish) for 6 weeks. Despite my best efforts I end up losing weight and by the end of it feel weak (it's good for me spiritually though). I am prone to iron deficiency anemia. I became severely anemic when I was eating meat about once or twice a month, and donated blood. I became so anemic they thought I might have blood or bone cancer. I even had a dietician review my diet and said since my diet was rich in non-animal iron, that I must have a problem absorbing anything but animal based iron. I also know from experience if I cheat and include a little dairy during Lent, I feel orders better than strictly removing all dairy and eggs.

That's pretty interesting given that milk doesn't have iron in it.

Yeah. I don't know why this is. The only thing I can think of, is the fat content and it being satiating in a way that vegetarian sources of fat aren't. 

[Joeko]

Reminds me of the Joke: An Atheist, Vegan and Crossfitter walk into a bar.  I only know because they told everyone within 2 minutes of being there.

[Syonyk]

Reminds me of the Joke: An Atheist, Vegan and Crossfitter walk into a bar.  I only know because they told everyone within 2 minutes of being there.

Don't forget pilots...

[HBFIRE]

Reading Dr Greger's site (nutritionfacts.org) is really compelling and persuasive on the benefits of a whole foods based vegan diet.  It seems pretty clear to me eating Vegan (whole foods) is vastly more healthy than any other diet by orders of magnitude.  My discipline in this area is horrible, and I love different cuisines with meats too much -- in particular Japanese and Indian cuisine (yes I'm aware you can eat vegan indian food).  I'm impressed with those who can eat healthy whole foods Vegan style (not the processed diet, which is also horrible and surprisingly common).

[WhiteTrashCash]

I'd be okay with veganism if killing animals wasn't so fun and tasty. Maybe if vegetables moved and you had to hunt them down, it would be better. Scientists, get on this!

[partgypsy]

Reading Dr Greger's site (nutritionfacts.org) is really compelling and persuasive on the benefits of a whole foods based vegan diet.  It seems pretty clear to me eating Vegan (whole foods) is vastly more healthy than any other diet by orders of magnitude.  My discipline in this area is horrible, and I love different cuisines with meats too much -- in particular Japanese and Indian cuisine (yes I'm aware you can eat vegan indian food).  I'm impressed with those who can eat healthy whole foods Vegan style (not the processed diet, which is also horrible and surprisingly common).

I disagree. Being pure vegan, is so rare population wise, is a very self selected group of people. It's the people who are successful vegans.  Look at "blue zones" where people live the longest, none of those populations are vegan (correction, one is vegetarian). They are plant based, with fish more than other meats, as well as less eggs and dairy than Americans eat, but definitely not vegan. It's possible once our knowledge of nutrition grows we can develop dietary supplements that would allow everyone to be vegan. But until then it's best to eat a diet with a wide variety, mostly vegetable based, limiting but not eliminating all animal products. Blue zones include Sardinia, island in Greece, okinowa Japan, and the Loma Linda 7th day Adventists who also do not drink or smoke.

[partgypsy]

Another thing that's interesting is that when they did a sub analyses of Loma Linda Adventists, comparing pesco vegetarians to vegan Adventists the pesco vegetarians we're healthier and lived longer than the vegans.

[GuitarStv]

Reading Dr Greger's site (nutritionfacts.org) is really compelling and persuasive on the benefits of a whole foods based vegan diet.  It seems pretty clear to me eating Vegan (whole foods) is vastly more healthy than any other diet by orders of magnitude.  My discipline in this area is horrible, and I love different cuisines with meats too much -- in particular Japanese and Indian cuisine (yes I'm aware you can eat vegan indian food).  I'm impressed with those who can eat healthy whole foods Vegan style (not the processed diet, which is also horrible and surprisingly common).

I'd take anything Dr. Greger says with a grain of salt.  He has a history of misrepresenting studies and ignoring data that doesn't fit into his personal viewpoint.

[sixup]

I would suggest this article for people who think meat is 100% unethical for environmental reasons: https://sustainabledish.com/meat-is-magnificent/

It's not so black and white.

TLDR is basically: animals are useful in replenishing the soil, a large amount of farm land is not suitable for growing crops but is good for grazers, 1lb of beef requires equal or less water than 1lb rice and other fruits/veggies, beef has an excellent nutritional profile for the most common global deficiencies, meat eating is actually down ~10% since the 80s but our processed foods and monoculture grains are up.

The caveat is that most meat is not raised this way right now and if it went this way we would probably have to reduce meat consumption (IMO). So I agree we should head in the direction of sustainable, ethically raised meat. But zero meat is not necessary and may actually be worse for the planet and human health.

[partgypsy]

I would suggest this article for people who think meat is 100% unethical for environmental reasons: https://sustainabledish.com/meat-is-magnificent/

It's not so black and white.

TLDR is basically: animals are useful in replenishing the soil, a large amount of farm land is not suitable for growing crops but is good for grazers, 1lb of beef requires equal or less water than 1lb rice and other fruits/veggies, beef has an excellent nutritional profile for the most common global deficiencies, meat eating is actually down ~10% since the 80s but our processed foods and monoculture grains are up.

The caveat is that most meat is not raised this way right now and if it went this way we would probably have to reduce meat consumption (IMO). So I agree we should head in the direction of sustainable, ethically raised meat. But zero meat is not necessary and may actually be worse for the planet and human health.

Other than some microwave meals and some frozen fish, I typically buy about a pound or so of meat a week. Yes, sometimes that is a rotisserie chicken. But I try to balance that with maybe a 1/4 of the time getting ground bison meat, pasture raised lamb, or some other free range option. Because it's more expensive it's doable if you eat less meat. But not if you eat typical American amounts of meat.
I don't think I'll ever give up eggs. I do buy the free range "organic" eggs (typically Pete and Gerry's)  but I've heard that free range is really not what people envision free range is. Is the only other recourse buying local farm eggs?   

[Bird In Hand]

I don't think I'll ever give up eggs. I do buy the free range "organic" eggs (typically Pete and Gerry's)  but I've heard that free range is really not what people envision free range is. Is the only other recourse buying local farm eggs?

Depending on local zoning regulations, you could raise your own chickens.  ;)

I live in a rural/agricultural area, so I'm very fortunate to have an abundant supply of local eggs.  I can't really drive anywhere without passing a small farmstand, or just a cooler out by the road, with eggs for sale.  Typically in the $2-$4 range.

Similarly with local meat.  I buy pastured chicken, beef, pork, and lamb from local farmers.  It's very expensive compared to what's at the grocery store, but I'm OK with that.  It accurately reflects the cost and value of raising animals in a humane way, eating an appropriate diet (i.e., not subsidized cheap grain feed, the production of which is environmentally questionable), and on a small/local scale.  The economies of scale required for the cheap meat you see in the supermarket require some very unpleasant (IMO) tradeoffs that I'm not willing to support with my wallet.

If you're interested in ethically raised animals for eggs or meat and you live in a more urban area, maybe it's worth exploring surrounding rural communities to see what's available semi-locally?  Does your city have any farmer's markets?