The Money Mustache Community

General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: travelbug on January 27, 2013, 12:10:14 AM

Title: Do you tell people?
Post by: travelbug on January 27, 2013, 12:10:14 AM
Just curious.

We will be FI in July this year, but are having a difficult time in trying to explain to people what that means.

We are constantly asked: but what will you do for money/work/time...

Sometimes we are telling people that we are taking a year sabbatical and then may start a new business venture.

The few people we have told the truth to have looked at us like we have three heads or argued some obscure financial point with us.

It's very weird and I wondered if it was just our friends and family, or if not, how you (do or would) deal with it?                       

Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: PKFFW on January 27, 2013, 12:36:40 AM
My wife and I don't tell too many people we are even working towards FI.  Any mention of investing is generally met with doom and gloom talk about losing everything and any mention of retiring within 5-10 years is generally scoffed at as impossible or requiring winning lotto.  We don't need the hassle and don't want to feel as we have to defend our choices just because they are different to the norm.

We've learnt to very carefully suss out peoples thoughts on matters of FI and investing before opening up.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: sol on January 27, 2013, 12:44:20 AM
Personally, I tell anyone who will listen that I don't intend to work more than a couple of more years.  Including people I know I shouldn't tell, like my boss.

But Joshua Kennon makes some good arguments in favor of "stealth wealth" for the very wealthy.  See here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/stealth-wealth-why-americas-rich-hide-their-money/) and here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/mail-bag-what-would-you-do-if-you-woke-up-with-10-million-your-existing-knowledge-but-no-other-assets/).
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: John74 on January 27, 2013, 01:08:18 AM
I see very little upside in telling people about my finances and as such I am a big proponent of stealth wealth.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: turtlefield76 on January 27, 2013, 01:39:14 AM
nope that's why i'm here posting with you all... :)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Miss Stachio on January 27, 2013, 05:56:21 AM
When I first started learning about FI and seeing that it's possible (esp since I was already used to being frugal) I wanted to share it with all my friends.  I talked with people about investing, early retirement, cheap phone plans, etc. Overwhelmingly the response has been negative, even from the people who refer to themselves as thrifty. I definitely started being eyed with suspicion so I quit sharing so much unless someone expresses interest independently. Luckily my family totally got on board so I can share ideas with them.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: BlueMR2 on January 27, 2013, 06:29:56 AM
I've tried a few times before in the past, but nobody gets it.  The overwhelming response is along the lines of "why would I want to not buy everything I can right now, I don't care about the future".
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: DocCyane on January 27, 2013, 07:44:58 AM
Only a handful of people know my true monetary situation. I not only don't tell, but I deliberately mislead, implying I can't afford a smartphone (for example) rather than saying I choose not to piddle away money on a smartphone.

I like the "taking a sabbatical" idea. I'm going to use that.

Folks can get downright mean if they think you have money when they don't OR they think you are judging their financial choices.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: meadow lark on January 27, 2013, 07:54:32 AM
I tell a little bit.  But if someone is the type to get jealous I emphasize what I don't have - no smartphone, only one old car, I live in a more modest house than my co-workers.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on January 27, 2013, 08:04:08 AM
Yup, basically everyone I know.

It helps that my FI route (real estate) is much more public. When I'm constantly purchasing a new property, going to show a house to a tenant, etc. then it naturally comes up ("oh yeah, we're planning on accumulating enough in the next five years to be financially independent and stop working" - discussion ensues).

If I was quietly building a large stock portfolio I think I'd still be telling people, but probably not as many would know as quickly as they did, because it wouldn't have been coming up as organically.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Kriegsspiel on January 27, 2013, 08:34:45 AM
Personally, I tell anyone who will listen that I don't intend to work more than a couple of more years.  Including people I know I shouldn't tell, like my boss.

But Joshua Kennon makes some good arguments in favor of "stealth wealth" for the very wealthy.  See here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/stealth-wealth-why-americas-rich-hide-their-money/) and here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/mail-bag-what-would-you-do-if-you-woke-up-with-10-million-your-existing-knowledge-but-no-other-assets/).

Very interesting site there, thanks!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: grantmeaname on January 27, 2013, 09:01:34 AM
But Joshua Kennon makes some good arguments in favor of "stealth wealth" for the very wealthy.  See here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/stealth-wealth-why-americas-rich-hide-their-money/) and here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/mail-bag-what-would-you-do-if-you-woke-up-with-10-million-your-existing-knowledge-but-no-other-assets/).

I understand what he's saying, and I mostly agree with him, but he's got a very strange worldview. I get the feeling that he views the world from a perspective entirely of people dominating other people ("It is very difficult for people to attempt to attack and control you if they don’t know the hidden founts of power and influence you have."). Not to mention his wholly unrealistic view of investing...
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Another Reader on January 27, 2013, 09:06:15 AM
His "wholly unrealistic view" of investing made him very wealthy in his 20's.  Can you say your approach has done the same for you?
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Skyn_Flynt on January 27, 2013, 09:10:30 AM
Generally keep things private. I may tell someone what percentage I put in my 401k, what my utility bills are, but I don't bring up FI. I may achieve FI a few years earlier, or later, than I expect anyway.

My parents are tightwads that retired a "a bit early" (60 and 62) so at least they get it.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on January 27, 2013, 09:11:48 AM
His "wholly unrealistic view" of investing made him very wealthy in his 20's.  Can you say your approach has done the same for you?

You know I like you AR, but this is just a ridiculous question.

If my friend said his investing strategy was to buy lottery tickets, which you then (reasonably) might say is a wholly unrealistic view of investing, and then he won, I could very well say:
Quote
His "wholly unrealistic view" of investing made him very wealthy in his 20's.  Can you say your approach has done the same for you?

That doesn't make his approach valid, or your comment about it being unrealistic invalid.

The fact that it worked does not give us any indication of its validity.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Honest Abe on January 27, 2013, 09:17:25 AM
I've been reading the blog in question this morning.... Lots of nice tidbits on there, definitely not something I subscribe to wholesale.

I drive a car to work, doesn't mean there's nothing I can learn from MMM. :)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Crash87 on January 27, 2013, 09:22:41 AM
My stache isn't very big right now, but its still much bigger than most my age. I plan on keeping wealth a secret simply to be more connected to people. I feel an invisible wall is built any time widely different financial standpoints are revealed.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: chucklesmcgee on January 27, 2013, 09:28:07 AM
But Joshua Kennon makes some good arguments in favor of "stealth wealth" for the very wealthy.  See here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/stealth-wealth-why-americas-rich-hide-their-money/) and here (http://www.joshuakennon.com/mail-bag-what-would-you-do-if-you-woke-up-with-10-million-your-existing-knowledge-but-no-other-assets/).

Good articles, thanks!

I like the concept of stealth wealth and like to keep most people guessing. However, I've noticed that it gets very lonely without having at least a few close friends who know your secret. It can also be tough to keep up an image of stealth wealth and still be able to get close to others.

I  try to keep my coworkers most distant from me, but people ask what I did in a day and I have to evade or just outright lie. "Hmmm, what did I do today? Fired off some paperwork to my tax preparer, looked at the analysis of prosper loan data I hired a Harvard statistician to compile, moved $10k into prosper, had my virtual assistant prepare a cover letter for some jobs that I don't really need but might be fun to have, investigated the ins and outs of my 401k plan to see if I can cash out for some strategic advantages, requested a monthly transaction volume increase to $250k from my credit card processor, cleared out of my kitchen for my chef to come in and was quite pleased with the $4000 in revenue my company pulled in today... I mean, uh, not much, you?"

Even little inquiries and my handling of would-be-catastrophes can be red flags. I was at fault in a car accident recently that exceeded my $5000 in coverage and had been waiting for some time to see how it would play out. In the end I owed a little over $6000. I guess I should have never brought it up with my coworkers, but my ability to more or less painlessly afford that was a bit ill received. I had broken my leg recently near work. People were very sympathetic and one person later asked how much it was going to cost me-

me"It's ridiculous, the MRI alone was something like $3000 after insurance negotiated it."
"You've got a good deductible right?"
"Haha, no, $5200." (why pay for coverage of something you can afford?)
*bertstare*

I think avoiding really conspicuous consumption is pretty easy. Hiding attitudes is a little tougher, especially if you want to remain genuine when talking to others.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Another Reader on January 27, 2013, 09:32:12 AM
Arebelspy:

Have you read Kennon's blog?  Kennon is a far more knowledgeable and sophisticated investor than I am, and I would guess most people in this forum.  I don't see anything about how indexing always outperforms active management there.  His "active management" made him a lot of money.  Saying a proven approach to investing (not gambling) is "wholly unrealistic" shows a total lack of respect, including intellectual respect, for the accomplishment.  Reading all the books in the world contributes nothing to the discussion if all you do is use the knowledge to bolster your previously held beliefs and ignore evidence that is contrary to those beliefs.  That might work in the sheltered world of academia, but it's not very helpful to those of us living in the real world that want to improve our investing skills.

 

Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Skyn_Flynt on January 27, 2013, 09:33:14 AM
I feel an invisible wall is built any time widely different financial standpoints are revealed.
Probably most people here want to be the "millionaire next door" - instead of aspire to move to a gated community.

I don't think that I would relate well to people who were born with wealth anyway. I have gone through tough spells... times when I had trouble keeping my car repaired, living in cheap places where at night the roaches came out like stars on the ceiling. Those were the sacrifices I made to have savings today.

Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: grantmeaname on January 27, 2013, 09:38:48 AM
His "wholly unrealistic view" of investing made him very wealthy in his 20's.  Can you say your approach has done the same for you?
Well, first, he wants to actively invest for hours a day, and then get only a 3% return on his stock portfolio. That's not a ringing endorsement of his skills. Second, he thinks private equity will outperform the stock market to the degree that it will more than double the returns, despite extensive empirical evidence to the contrary and to say nothing of the differences in risk. Third, holy survivorship bias, batman! Buying nothing but apple stock in 2001 and selling it in June 2012 would make you rich beyond your wildest dreams too. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Lastly, yes, I will be very wealthy in my twenties. By the time I'm thirty, I will have all of the money I will ever need. I'm trying a paradigm called "work hard, don't spend money on stupid shit, and buy index funds", which seems to be a big hit around this site for some reason.

Edit: Like I said, though, I see where he's coming from. I have incredible respect for him as a person, too -- any consciously-thinking, lifestyle-designing gourmand private equity executive is on the right track in a lot of ways and shares many of my values, and he's obviously reasonably articulate as well. This isn't me trying to denigrate Kennon as a professional or a human being. I just think he's got a very strange worldview and some odd ideas floating around in his head.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on January 27, 2013, 12:14:49 PM
Arebelspy:

Have you read Kennon's blog?

No I haven't, and it's irrelevant to my point, because I'm not questioning him as an investor.  His approach may be valid.  It may not.  I don't know.  Grant is apparently asserting it may not be, you are asserting it may be.  I have no opinion on it.

My only point was saying "his strategy worked, how's yours doing?" is ridiculous to ask, because something working doesn't make it a valid strategy (nor does it invalidate it).  It happening to work very well could be happenstance (and again, may not be, I have no thoughts on whether his particular flavor of investing is or isn't invalid).

This line just seems hard to ask genuinely, with that in mind:
Quote
His "wholly unrealistic view" of investing made him very wealthy in his 20's.  Can you say your approach has done the same for you?
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: AlexK on January 27, 2013, 12:27:23 PM
I tell lots of people about my plans for FI. The main reason is I would like to have friends with similar interests. You can't do that if you never reveal your true self (this applies to every aspect of life, not just finances). If people think negatively of me for that, they probably won't talk to me any more... problem solved!

Actually my boss knows I make enough money to live on from investments and my employment time is limited. It isn't good from a career standpoint, but what do I care, it will be one more year working at the most.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Ozstache on January 27, 2013, 02:00:09 PM
I found I was getting a lot of resistance if I used the word retire in any of my discussions with people with this, as there is mass incredulity that one can simply unplug from the matrix at the halfway mark. So now I just tell people that I've put in a good 30 years in my current line of work and just want to try my hand at something else while I'm young enough to switch "careers". The fact that my new "career" will not involve any form of wage slavery is something they do not need to know. As far as they are concerned, I will have enough to tide me over until I find my new working career groove, which just happens to be never!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: shadowmoss on January 27, 2013, 02:27:43 PM
I have pretty much been going up to strangers and bragging that I paid off my credit cards and my Jeep in the past 2 months, after being down here in Honduras for almost 2.5 years.  Prior, it came up as why I wasn't doing a lot of traveling around while I'm down here.  In general, most of us are down here working the DOD contract because of the money (which isn't as good as working in the Desert, but is better than we can make in the US), it is more the flavor of what we do with it that is different.  I'm fairly new to the game as most of the guys working here have little to no debt, and they are down here to settle in and get set up to live here at low cost during retirement.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Nords on January 27, 2013, 02:49:55 PM
Just curious.
We will be FI in July this year, but are having a difficult time in trying to explain to people what that means.
We are constantly asked: but what will you do for money/work/time...
It's very weird and I wondered if it was just our friends and family, or if not, how you (do or would) deal with it?
People are usually more interested in how your point of view applies to them-- they can't imagine what they'd do all day if they were ER'd.

I think the best approach is to tell people that you're taking a few months off to spend time with family & friends.  As that stretches out into months and eventually years, they'll start to perceive you as chronically unemployable.  Eventually they'll get tired of hearing about how you live a beach-bum lifestyle, surfing all day and working on your own projects.  Instead they'll suspect that you're selling your blood plasma (and perhaps redundant body parts) to pay your bills. 

After a few years they'll see how you're dressing, and they'll be worried that you'll ask them for money, so they won't even bring up the subject.

It's working for us!

The most compact subject-changing explanations I've seen over the years are "investment manager for a family office" and "every day is Saturday!!"
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: travelbug on January 27, 2013, 03:42:52 PM
Just curious.
We will be FI in July this year, but are having a difficult time in trying to explain to people what that means.
We are constantly asked: but what will you do for money/work/time...
It's very weird and I wondered if it was just our friends and family, or if not, how you (do or would) deal with it?
People are usually more interested in how your point of view applies to them-- they can't imagine what they'd do all day if they were ER'd.

I think the best approach is to tell people that you're taking a few months off to spend time with family & friends.  As that stretches out into months and eventually years, they'll start to perceive you as chronically unemployable.  Eventually they'll get tired of hearing about how you live a beach-bum lifestyle, surfing all day and working on your own projects.  Instead they'll suspect that you're selling your blood plasma (and perhaps redundant body parts) to pay your bills. 

After a few years they'll see how you're dressing, and they'll be worried that you'll ask them for money, so they won't even bring up the subject.

It's working for us!

The most compact subject-changing explanations I've seen over the years are "investment manager for a family office" and "every day is Saturday!!"

LOL!

I agree.

We have been flying under the radar for years now, just working, building assets and accumulating wealth.

But now it's almost here and we have decided to sell our business rather than keep it we are having to explain ourselves somewhat.

Our plan is to travel for 1-3 years, hence the sabbatical idea.

After that I suppose we may start up a fun project but we can just allude to it as a web based business perhaps...I think that the longer we just live the less people will think it weird. As we have always been self employed we can get by on that I suppose.

I also feel that when we suggest we are retiring or being FI, that's when the trouble starts. DH's brother actually became so angry with us for "throwing our life away" it created a massive arguement and rift for a while. Crazy. He just could not get his head around it at all.

So it's good, but also a very sad reflection of our society and world, that others are experiencing similar scenarios. That's why I love coming here: I don't feel like such a weirdo!



Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: joshuakennon on January 27, 2013, 03:59:59 PM
His "wholly unrealistic view" of investing made him very wealthy in his 20's.  Can you say your approach has done the same for you?
Well, first, he wants to actively invest for hours a day, and then get only a 3% return on his stock portfolio. That's not a ringing endorsement of his skills. Second, he thinks private equity will outperform the stock market to the degree that it will more than double the returns, despite extensive empirical evidence to the contrary and to say nothing of the differences in risk. Third, holy survivorship bias, batman! Buying nothing but apple stock in 2001 and selling it in June 2012 would make you rich beyond your wildest dreams too. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Lastly, yes, I will be very wealthy in my twenties. By the time I'm thirty, I will have all of the money I will ever need. I'm trying a paradigm called , which seems to be a big hit around this site for some reason.

Edit: Like I said, though, I see where he's coming from. I have incredible respect for him as a person, too -- any consciously-thinking, lifestyle-designing gourmand private equity executive is on the right track in a lot of ways and shares many of my values, and he's obviously reasonably articulate as well. This isn't me trying to denigrate Kennon as a professional or a human being. I just think he's got a very strange worldview and some odd ideas floating around in his head.

This is Joshua Kennon, the author in question.  I've had several people contact me today about this thread so I took a few minutes to see why on earth I, of all people, warrant discussion.

I'm curious as it if you have actually ever read any of my writings.  Your philosophy, "work hard, don't spend money on stupid shit, and buy index funds" is literally (without the profanity) the prescription I give to the 40,000,000+ people who read my sites annually (including my much smaller personal blog). 

The figures you have dishonestly - though I believe unintentionally so - referenced were taken from a mail submission question response about the cash income that could be possibly generated at current market prices by a hypothetical portfolio, and the 3% yield for stocks was referring to the fact that I would prefer a higher dividend yield (roughly 3%) to the current market's yield of 2.7% given that I like holding high quality, conservatively capitalized, cash generating stocks with very little turnover in my portfolio.  The 8% yield for private equity and master limited partnerships referred to the median yield available right now on MLP's, which are a special type of security that have major tax benefits, a famous example being a firm like Buckeye Partners, LP (ticker symbol BPL), which is not a stock but a publicly traded limited partnership that is required to distribute nearly all income as dividends to avoid taxation at the entity-level.  On an after-tax basis, though the cash yields of the two instruments (stocks and master limited partnerships) are very different, the underlying earnings yields are not by virtue of the fact the former retain most of their earnings for expansion and future growth.

Likewise, your assertion that I would spend "several hours a day" actively managing money is further proof you didn't look beyond the surface.  Though my turnover is extraordinarily low - a few percentage points a year - and my rates of return far above average (fueled by my private business holdings, the only one of which I have discussed in public is the most successful national Internet retailer of varsity jackets in the United States, which I started from my college apartment with a few thousand dollars) - the reason I said, in this hypothetical, I would sit in an office and read annual reports all day is because I love economics and studying businesses.  I feel about business like some people do about art or skateboarding.  You, incorrectly, assume that this means my portfolio turnover would be high.  This was clear, if you did more than a quick scan of the page or bothered to read any of my publications before forming an opinion about them.

The constant message I convey to people is:

I realize we live in a world of sound bites and ten-second attention spans, but calling me, of all people, someone who believes in active management, or hyper trading, would be like walking into a vegan conference and demanding they stop slaughtering cows because you passed the table and saw tofu burgers being served.  First conclusion bias does not always lead to clear thinking. 

I'm heading back over to my site and won't be back to check this in the future.  I normally don't bother responding to these sorts of things at all given the demands on my time but to ascribe to me investment views that are the polar opposite of what I've spent my career advocating for people is dishonest or ignorant.  Without knowing your intentions, I cannot be sure of which.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Honest Abe on January 27, 2013, 04:20:21 PM
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4dugd7AUg1rve7nfo1_250.gif)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on January 27, 2013, 04:25:30 PM
Thanks for your input Joshua.  I'm sure grant didn't mean it maliciously, and I can see how he interpreted the "sit in my office and look at stocks from 9 to 6" (paraphrasing) in your hypothetical daily schedule as active investing.

Having you give more information is very helpful, and I'm sure almost all of us here agree with your message as stated above.  Thanks for stopping in to clear it up.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Self-employed-swami on January 27, 2013, 04:50:32 PM
Seems like someone spends his days, googling himself...

Interesting though.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: joshuakennon on January 27, 2013, 05:06:20 PM
Seems like someone spends his days, googling himself...

Interesting though.

No.  I'm not nearly that egotistical.  In my line of work certain ... security ... procedures are necessary and there are people who monitor this sort of thing.

To prove it, I'm sending you a private image of a satellite picture of where you are writing from at this moment.  I have no connection to this site and have no access to their servers.  It's all automated and uses the Internet's infrastructure to track down your location.  For example, we've had to use it in the past to lead people to the FBI if the messages they send are threatening.  It's a way to correct information asymmetry.  You know my real name ... so I know your real name, location, occupation, and other data.  Every major site does it.  Do a quick search for Target's capabilities - they are truly scary.  They can tell you when a woman is pregnant before the woman realizes itself based on purchasing habits.

(Sorry about commenting again - while I am here, I am looking around and this is actually a really great forum full of like-minded people.  I might have to join permanently.  I can't believe I didn't know about it before!)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on January 27, 2013, 05:51:06 PM
I think - if you aren't joking - you're just emphasizing grant's point about your "strange worldview."  :D

That's okay, most of us around here have some ideas the average person would find quite odd. 

It is easy to read an article or blog and forget the author is a real person, and just discuss them and their ideas in a vacuum.

Glad to have you here, your thoughts are plenty welcome.  Just know that there are many disagreements around here, we just try to do it respectfully.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: NumberJohnny5 on January 27, 2013, 06:12:06 PM
(Sorry about commenting again - while I am here, I am looking around and this is actually a really great forum full of like-minded people.  I might have to join permanently.  I can't believe I didn't know about it before!)

I think you'd fit in just fine....

http://cdn4.joshuakennon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/face-punch-1-630x470.jpg
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Self-employed-swami on January 27, 2013, 06:44:32 PM
(Sorry about commenting again - while I am here, I am looking around and this is actually a really great forum full of like-minded people.  I might have to join permanently.  I can't believe I didn't know about it before!)

I think you'd fit in just fine....

http://cdn4.joshuakennon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/face-punch-1-630x470.jpg

Ha!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Kriegsspiel on January 27, 2013, 06:49:07 PM
LOL

I've spent most of the afternoon reading on Joshua's blog.  His principles and M3's are pretty close, some differences, but the basics are the same.  I like having the basics down pat.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: grantmeaname on January 27, 2013, 07:31:11 PM
The figures you have dishonestly - though I believe unintentionally so - referenced were taken from a mail submission question response about the cash income that could be possibly generated at current market prices by a hypothetical portfolio, and the 3% yield for stocks was referring to the fact that I would prefer a higher dividend yield (roughly 3%) to the current market's yield of 2.7% given that I like holding high quality, conservatively capitalized, cash generating stocks with very little turnover in my portfolio.  The 8% yield for private equity and master limited partnerships referred to the median yield available right now on MLP's, which are a special type of security that have major tax benefits, a famous example being a firm like Buckeye Partners, LP (ticker symbol BPL), which is not a stock but a publicly traded limited partnership that is required to distribute nearly all income as dividends to avoid taxation at the entity-level.  On an after-tax basis, though the cash yields of the two instruments (stocks and master limited partnerships) are very different, the underlying earnings yields are not by virtue of the fact the former retain most of their earnings for expansion and future growth.
All of which is fine, but it's not what your blog post says.

Quote
Likewise, your assertion that I would spend "several hours a day" actively managing money is further proof you didn't look beyond the surface.
 
There are hundreds of PF blogs on the web, and the discussion started revolving around your blog, one I wasn't familiar with. I read every word of both posts that were linked and explicitly the topic of this discussion, and if they contradict the major message of the rest of your blog that's fine. But for me to post a fairly nuanced view based on the commonsense meaning of what you typed, and for you then to insult me as "dishonest or ignorant", is pretty rich.

Quote
I feel about business like some people do about art or skateboarding.  You, incorrectly, assume that this means my portfolio turnover would be high.  This was clear, if you did more than a quick scan of the page or bothered to read any of my publications before forming an opinion about them.
I don't think I assumed that anywhere.

Quote
I'm heading back over to my site and won't be back to check this in the future.  I normally don't bother responding to these sorts of things at all given the demands on my time but to ascribe to me investment views that are the polar opposite of what I've spent my career advocating for people is dishonest or ignorant.  Without knowing your intentions, I cannot be sure of which.
You really showed me. Here, you win an internets.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: William on January 27, 2013, 07:31:47 PM
I never discuss financial specifics with any one person (even financial advisors, etc.).

The other day someone asked in awe how much money I had saved.  I just smile.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: KGZotU on January 27, 2013, 09:50:17 PM
Ha!
Don't leave us hanging...did he...did he get your location right?
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on January 27, 2013, 10:21:08 PM
Ha!
Don't leave us hanging...did he...did he get your location right?

Here it is. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Canada-satellite.jpg)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Hamster on January 27, 2013, 10:30:55 PM
Ha!
Don't leave us hanging...did he...did he get your location right?

Here it is. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Canada-satellite.jpg)

I wish I could like or +1 posts on this forum.

BTW, that satellite got me too...
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on January 27, 2013, 10:36:51 PM
I wish I could like or +1 posts on this forum.

BTW, that satellite got me too...

Yikes, this goes deeper than we even know!

/tinfoil hat
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Nords on January 27, 2013, 10:44:16 PM
Seems like someone spends his days, googling himself...
Interesting though.
No.  I'm not nearly that egotistical.  In my line of work certain ... security ... procedures are necessary and there are people who monitor this sort of thing.
Oh, please.  I have people Google Alerts set for my name and pingbacks on my blog too.

I just hope that your wealth has brought you happiness!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: keith on January 28, 2013, 01:06:29 AM
Back on topic - when I first got excited about this stuff I had mentioned it to some family members (including parents). They all think I'm crazy now, so I just try to not bring it up anymore with them.

I do have one friend who is on a similar path which is great. An in-real-life person to talk about FI stuff with on a regular basis is awesome. Feels good to have someone else understand apart from "forum/internet friends" - ha.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: galaxie on January 28, 2013, 07:40:04 AM
I am pretty early on in this plan, so when I mentioned it to my parents (I said something like "We have a 15 year mortgage, and when the house is paid off we can retire"), they said something like "That's nice, honey.  Sure you will.  Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

I get a lot of semi-dismissive comments like that.  I'm 30 and childless, and I plan to be retired (probably with kids) at about 45, give or take.  People usually say "what, are you independently wealthy?" and "you're very lucky," with a smattering of "It'll never work, the market won't behave forever, and you're setting yourself up for disaster."  But I still tell people, and they just start to think I have crazy ideas.  I fit in just fine with the 9/11 truther in the office across the hall and the engineer with the fruit orchard.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Togoshiman on January 28, 2013, 08:21:00 AM
Any comment, direct or indirect, about being frugral, potential FI / ER, etc. has not been well-received.  The best I got was from parents when I mentioned an aggressive plan to pay off the mortgage (in the tone of voice you'd use with a small child who was telling you about their imaginary friend).  Siblings, friends and co-workers have ranged from hostile to indifferent to some sort of willfully-blind-the-words-are-not-going-in slack-jawed mental force field...  I've given up.  Plans are rapidly snowballing and I just pretend like nothing is going on whatsoever.  People comment I seem more relaxed, however.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Self-employed-swami on January 28, 2013, 09:05:21 AM
Ha!
Don't leave us hanging...did he...did he get your location right?

Here it is. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Canada-satellite.jpg)

I wish I could like or +1 posts on this forum.

BTW, that satellite got me too...

He put me in Ottawa.  He got the country correct at least. 

He'd have had gotten much closer, if he just looked at the mustache map thread.
:D
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: jrhampt on January 28, 2013, 09:18:57 AM
LOL

I've spent most of the afternoon reading on Joshua's blog.  His principles and M3's are pretty close, some differences, but the basics are the same.  I like having the basics down pat.

Yeah, me, too.  His blog has been a very entertaining way to spend yesterday and today as I'm waiting for some data to be processed.  Thanks to whoever linked to it in the first place!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Mike on January 28, 2013, 09:32:05 AM
Most reaction has been disbelief.  I also get a lot of "what are you going to do?" - as if there's no possible alternate way to fill the time void left by quitting a full-time job.  Clearly their expectation is that I will get bored.

A couple women were curious about how I plan on doing it, so I shed some light on it.  Immediate response was "I could never do that".  My take is most of the population is every bit as hooked on wasteful lifestyle choices as any heroin addict.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: galaxie on January 28, 2013, 01:05:16 PM
Plans are rapidly snowballing and I just pretend like nothing is going on whatsoever.  People comment I seem more relaxed, however.

I go around the office with a spring in my step and a twinkle in my eye.  Folks ask me how I'm doing and I say "Livin' the dream!"  They look at me like I have two heads.

What?  I'm doing productive work at a job I like, I have a sweet house and a great family, and I live in the Best-Run City in America (tm).  I do sometimes wish I could spend a little less time on the job, but that's what FI is for.  I have goals and I'm making progress.  There's a general atmosphere of Financial Complainypantsness that rivals the Body Image Negativity Olympics my women friends get into when I mention a new weight lifting routine.  It's actually a little bit socially unacceptable to be happy with your finances/body fat percentage.

Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: WhatMomWears on January 28, 2013, 01:59:59 PM
Family is completely and totally supportive. I don't even talk about it with my local friends though my friends from college, if I did mention it, would be very supportive. Interesting observation actually. My college friends are much more similar to me (education, career, background) than my more local friends are. Most of my local friends are also SAHMs but didn't have the type of career (PE/IB) I had before they had kids so it's just natural we are in different places financially.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: momo on January 28, 2013, 03:00:16 PM
I warmly share ideas on financial independence and the concepts taught by MMM, ERE, and "Your Money Or Your Life" with friends, coworkers, and even strangers. However, I find many people in social settings (family, coworkers, strangers) are very guarded and/or don't like to share their hopes/fears, or financial concerns. So I always gingerly test the waters before sharing.

To balance privacy issues and the desire to share/connect with others, I share ideas with anyone who is curious and willing to learn, but I avoid sharing with people who shy away from the finance related topics, or simply do not express interest. Also I do not tell people my personal plans for early retirement, unless they are comfortable discussing their own financial concerns first. For close trusted friends I openly share information and ask plenty of probing questions so we can learn from each other.

I enjoy learning from others who are open-minded and especially from those who have already achieved FI. How about you?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Tyler on January 28, 2013, 04:13:19 PM
Just another suggestion:  "I'm taking time off to study _____.  I've always had a passion for that, and now feels like a good time to start."   Eventually your "studies" will lead you in new directions. 

The average person is more likely to relate to doing what you enjoy than simply retiring early. 
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Ozstache on January 28, 2013, 04:40:56 PM
Just another suggestion:  "I'm taking time off to study _____.  I've always had a passion for that, and now feels like a good time to start."   Eventually your "studies" will lead you in new directions. 

The average person is more likely to relate to doing what you enjoy than simply retiring early.

Great idea. I think I might fit in a gap year (or decade!) before I start my "studies". Actually, I probably will study, but it will be an educational journey of what takes my fancy and not the usual resume stuffer fare that's out there nowadays.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: marty998 on January 28, 2013, 07:04:07 PM
I was met with the "yeah right" attitude. But that comes from people who have locked themselves into $750k mortgages and are paying $25k+ per child per year in private school fees. Oh and they also buy Mercedes 7 seat vans every couple of years to carry their 2 kids around.

When we were kids my mum and dad squeezed me and my bro into a 25 year old corolla hatch. And we had room to spare.

I don't tell anyone at work now, but I  keep MMM forum open on my screen at lunchtime (typing right now). If anyone looks at my screen I'd be happy to share. But there's a lack of interest in these things. They say
"oh right, that's interesting, but I can't do it"
"why not"
"*shrug*

A collegue goes to the gym at lunch to lose the weight he puts on by sitting all day at a desk. Seems like the sort of guy who will work till he's 65 (more than 3 decades away). I wonder if he'll still be feeding his crack habit gym habit then? Something like $100k spent running on a treadmill in that time? LOL outside the gym is a river and park with a 5k running track.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: icefr on January 28, 2013, 10:04:41 PM
My parents know approximately how much I make and that I am maxing out my retirement accounts and paying down my mortgage aggressively. Why not? They did the same thing. I'm not married, so it's really nice to have someone to share mortgage payoff stories with. I think my mom finds it pretty amusing how quickly my mortgage is disappearing.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: tmac on January 29, 2013, 06:09:29 AM
I was met with the "yeah right" attitude. But that comes from people who have locked themselves into $750k mortgages and are paying $25k+ per child per year in private school fees. Oh and they also buy Mercedes 7 seat vans every couple of years to carry their 2 kids around.

I'm reminded of one of our employees. He's a senior level guy, and he actually makes more than we do, and we own the business. His house cost him three or four times what ours did, he and his wife both drive leased cars, and his kids go to a $30K/year private school. He wears custom-made shirts which, when you've got credit card debt out the ass, doesn't seem that wise. Especially since we're a business casual office. A Target shirt would be fine. His wife takes off with "the girls" (her friends, not her daughters) at the drop of the hat to Vegas, the beach, and NYC.

We're in much better shape financially (relatively speaking) and our outlay is minimal compared to his, even though we bring home about $10k less per year. He's just in the hole so deep, he can't even imagine doing what it would take to get out of it.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: galaxie on January 29, 2013, 06:55:12 AM
I was met with the "yeah right" attitude. But that comes from people who have locked themselves into $750k mortgages and are paying $25k+ per child per year in private school fees. Oh and they also buy Mercedes 7 seat vans every couple of years to carry their 2 kids around.

Thing is, I have that mortgage.  (Ok, so the house is a 2-family and it's now paid down to a measly half mil, but still.)  Even then, FI is totally possible.  Not with the insane elective spending on cars and private school on top of the debt, though.  Yikes.

And that's the thing!!  I work with people who are older, smarter, and better paid than me, who paid less for their houses (they're in the suburbs and bought them earlier so it's unlikely they cost more).  But they can't retire.  Or they say things like "You'll see when you have to pay for [college/horseback riding lessons/a second or third car/a summer home/vacations/day care/private school...]." 

On one hand, sure.  The desire to spend money on those things hasn't hit me yet.  But I'm pretty sure most of them are not remotely mandatory.  If they're important to me, I'll save up for them.  It's what you do when you want to buy something expensive.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: skarn on January 29, 2013, 07:15:28 AM
What a great thread.

I tell people about principles to reach FI. I'm known as a frugal person. I can't hide my opinions that if people lower their expectations about the consumer rat race, they'll do themselves a world of good. But I avoid sounding preachy about it. People are pretty open, they even ask me how to invest. Or ask me to invest their money for them, which I will then (hopefully politely or lightheartedly) decline.

But I don't reveal net worth numbers and try to avoid saying how much I'm up or down in the stock market - though I guess percentages can be OK.

I don't have much anyway, but any form of comparison wouldn't do anyone good.
Title: modelling the behavior, instead of humblebragging
Post by: chatsc on January 29, 2013, 10:54:56 AM
We don't really tell other people our business.  Some of our friends have noticed that we have a lot of things/opportunities that they can't afford (no student loans, one stay at home parent, 3 kids, "expensive" interesting sports classes for our kids and ourselves, a cottage, real estate that we are selling, a reliable paid off car, not a huge mortgage, etc).  Some have asked for help with their situation, which I was happy to provide, but no one ever followed up on it.  I am not genius in investing and things like that, but I can tell you not to buy starbucks every day, take good care of your possessions and to pay your bills on time.

When our friends complain about their credit card debt and such, I usually just sympathize.  Because yes, it does suck to have credit card debt.  I totally agree with them.  It is the worst.  But it is up to you to decide how you want to deal with it.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: frugalman on January 29, 2013, 11:35:51 AM
I'm a big Joshua Kennon fan by the way.  He does more in one day than most people do in months or years.  Just in culinary arts alone for example.

On topic - I only discuss this stuff with like minded people.  Other people have their own opinions such as you only live once so you might as well enjoy the BMW, McMansion, best cell phones, tvs,  cable, vacations etc. that you can "afford".  People like this just aren't so interested in frugal living, purposely under spending  your income and saving the rest.  They become what I call debt slaves, enslaved to their jobs and cubicles indefinitely because they are not putting much away for their later years.

MMM put a lot away for his later years - and now in his 30s gets to do what he wants to.  He, Joshua and many others are my heros.  MMM more so because he makes it simple, and facepunches you into submission.  I've been changed by his blog.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: tooqk4u22 on January 29, 2013, 12:00:01 PM
He's just in the hole so deep, he can't even imagine doing what it would take to get out of it.

Or what would he do if he no longer was providing a sufficient ROI to you, and thus terminated him. 

Given the description - he must be one of your sales people. 
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: tmac on January 29, 2013, 02:45:12 PM
He's just in the hole so deep, he can't even imagine doing what it would take to get out of it.

Or what would he do if he no longer was providing a sufficient ROI to you, and thus terminated him. 

Given the description - he must be one of your sales people. 

He does do some sales for us, but he's mainly a tech, if you can believe it. He's pretty good at his job, so he's lucky. We have had to dismiss other people in the past, and it hasn't been pretty.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: travelbug on January 29, 2013, 10:29:36 PM
Thanks for the link to the Joshua Kennon blog, it's really good and has some interesting advice too. It's lovely to see other young people actually doing it. Reaching FI and sharing so as we can see that it's real.
I think MMM's post today was awesome and in the comments section he was stating that 'Enough' is the key to the mindset. Not wanting more. What an amazing key to open a whole new world of freedom.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: NWstubble on January 30, 2013, 12:12:36 AM
I'm reminded of one of our employees. He's a senior level guy, and he actually makes more than we do, and we own the business. His house cost him three or four times what ours did, he and his wife both drive leased cars, and his kids go to a $30K/year private school.

This is like straight out of the Millionaire Next Door series. Employee playing keeping up with the Joneses, while the business owner lives a more moderate life and will be set.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: happy on January 30, 2013, 03:00:12 AM
No I don't tell people. My kids know about MMM...I keep telling them to read MMM. My folks know I'm looking at /planning retirement options  in the future, but at my age thats not unusual. I haven't told anyone I am semi-retired apart from the privacy of this internet forum ( how to keep a secret, tell an internet forum :) ), although a number of people obviously know I've reduced working hours. I've talked to a few people who seemed open about the whole frugal thing and MMM philosophy, but don't share my numbers, specific plans etc. 
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Jon_Snow on February 28, 2013, 02:30:44 PM
A few years back I let slip my intention of retiring early - "How early? 60? 55?" people would ask. When I replied "Before 45", I was met with skepticism and downright scorn. I put my head down and continued to save like a demon.

Fast forward to the present - I think I am at most 2 years (I will be 42 then) from unplugging myself from the meat grinder that is my career, so again I have let it be known to select family members of my intentions. Word of this had reached my fathers ears, and he has informed that he wants to sit down and talk about "things" over a beer or two. I know for a fact that he will judge my plans as IMPOSSIBLE to pull off - but he has no idea about the size of our "Stache" (thanks to wifes recent bonus its clocking in at close to 900k, paid for house, blah blah blah) and he can't reconcile that my wife and I can easily live on 30k per year. He will probably think it unmanly for me to stop work while my wife happily continues her career. No intention of sharing my financial numbers with him...
 
This is going to be interesting.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on February 28, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
A few years back I let slip my intention of retiring early - "How early? 60? 55?" people would ask. When I replied "Before 45", I was met with skepticism and downright scorn. I put my head down and continued to save like a demon.

Fast forward to the present - I think I am at most 2 years (I will be 42 then) from unplugging myself from the meat grinder that is my career, so again I have let it be known to select family members of my intentions. Word of this had reached my fathers ears, and he has informed that he wants to sit down and talk about "things" over a beer or two. I know for a fact that he will judge my plans as IMPOSSIBLE to pull off - but he has no idea about the size of our "Stache" (thanks to wifes recent bonus its clocking in at close to 900k, paid for house, blah blah blah) and he can't reconcile that my wife and I can easily live on 30k per year. He will probably think it unmanly for me to stop work while my wife happily continues her career. No intention of sharing my financial numbers with him...
 
This is going to be interesting.

Don't you think your quitting talking about it for years (the "put my head down, shut up about it" type thing) has made people more skeptical now? (I.e. they never had a chance to get over the skepticism).

I've been talking about ER for several years, and now if it gets mentioned, it's accepted that it will happen for me at a very young age.

Where people initially scoffed, when I decided not to just put my head down, but kept it up, now they see that it's real, and I can avoid all that skepticism later.

IMO, YMMV.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: unplugged on February 28, 2013, 03:58:02 PM
I wish people would not fly under the radar. We need to talk more about $ not less.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Peter on February 28, 2013, 04:30:25 PM
Jon_Snow from CMF? Good to see you here man.

Myself since I'm still pretty young (25) I can tell people that "I'm going to be retired by 35-40" and it can be joked about in a light hearted way where no one is "concerned" for me.

I'm also not at the point where living cheaply is seen as weird (where's your 2500sqft house and 2 kids and 2 cars?)

It'll be interesting though once I get to 30+ though. Fun times ahead I'm sure! ha!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Jon_Snow on February 28, 2013, 05:08:09 PM
Yes, I'm the very same Jon_Snow from the CMF. :)

Feel like a bit of an odd duck on those forums... MMM feels like I have come HOME.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: NeverWasACornflakeGirl on March 01, 2013, 06:03:47 AM
I do wish people would talk about money more, especially in the U.S., where it's such a secret.  I grew up in a household with lots of secrets, and one of the major ones was money.  I think that when you are willing to talk about (not preach about  :-)  ) money in an open, honest way, it gives other people hope.  I don't reveal the size of our stash (600k at this point), but everyone knows that we downsized our house and have no mortgage now, and we have no debt, and we've been very open about why we are doing that.  I think it helps that in our neighborhood there are many "millionaire next door" types.  Many of our friends go to our church (Unitarian) and share our values about money and "stuff," and caring for the environment and our children.

I've seen what a difference it has made to other people as I've come out as gay over the last 20 years, and I think it can really be helpful for others for us to "come out" as mustachians, too.  :-)

Many of our friends and family come to us for financial advice, and I've been asked to teach a YMOYL seminar at church, so I think we are having a positive impact.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: psychomoustache on March 01, 2013, 06:48:54 AM
I do wish people would talk about money more, especially in the U.S., where it's such a secret.  I grew up in a household with lots of secrets, and one of the major ones was money.  I

I grew up with a very wealthy father, a very dependent and needy mother - a lot of secrets and nastiness and not a lot of guidance on how to manage money well and take care of one's self. I was expected to marry a wealthy guy, since as an English major I wasn't expected to make much myself.

It's not so much the money in and of itself that is inspiring me on this site - it's the life philosophy around what constitutes a fulfilling and prosperous vision for life.  My father has not stopped working and he's going to be 75 this year. He has more than enough money, and luxuries, but his life has been defined by acquiring things (this is what happens if you grow up very poor, maybe??) and honestly I don't think he knows how to live without that vision of things.

SO I feel so free and happy these days, I can't shut up about it - that's my nature though - not the silent type.   ; )
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: azanon on March 01, 2013, 07:02:08 AM
I allude to it occasionally during lunch break with my fellow federal co-workers.  Sometimes I will talk about my grocery buying strategies, or the fact that I'm happy with bringing my lunch instead of eating out, or how I prefer to avoid tourist traps like Disneyworld.  Though it brings up laughter sometime, there is this one guy in particular that accuses me of being "cheap" or tight, despite the fact that I generously give when donations are requested, or despite the fact that I obviously contribute to the CFC (federal campaign) - obviously, because they give out gifts at various giving thresholds.

So, to be completely honestly, I'd say that I get more negative reception than positive.  I'd say I get thought of more as cheap, or a hoarder rather than sensible and frugal.  And I'd say that makes a lot of sense because if they really understood the true value of frugality, they'd be doing it themselves.   
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on March 01, 2013, 07:20:34 AM
It could very well be that your shining example makes them jealous and uncomfortable with their own failings, so they have to justify in their mind why they can't do the same thing. 

Calling you cheap (and convincing themselves it's true, despite evidence to the contrary) is one way to do so.

"Oh well s/he saves a lot, but they're cheap, I don't want to be like them."

* em.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: MrSaturday on March 01, 2013, 09:00:49 AM
Where people initially scoffed, when I decided not to just put my head down, but kept it up, now they see that it's real, and I can avoid all that skepticism later.

Will future skepticism matter?  I would think anyone that still can't accept it when you actually retire in the not too distant future probably can't be convinced.

My family and close friends know me well enough to take my word for it even if they can't wrap their head around it.  Most of my skeptics are coworkers, so I look forward to shaking their hands and saying goodbye as my final argument.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on March 01, 2013, 09:25:44 AM
I'd rather have friends and family believing it's possible and rooting for me than saying it can't happen and saying I'll fail (even up to and after pulling the plug).

I think honest, open discussion about it is more likely to lead to the former, whereas hiding it is more likely to lead to the latter.

YMMV.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: mpbaker22 on March 01, 2013, 10:01:36 AM
Quote

I give to the 40,000,000+ people who read my sites annually (including my much smaller personal blog). 

No.  I'm not nearly that egotistical. 


LOL!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: mobilisinmobili on March 01, 2013, 11:03:11 AM
I usually only mention it when it comes up.. or with a few close friends who are interested in this kind of thing.

It's unfortunate.. I think people in their 20-30s need to get A LOT more comfortable talking about money, people keeping things way to themselves is not the best way to know how good or bad you are at money.

I have a friend who works in a bar.. she's around 24.. financially responsible. She mentioned casually she had no idea how so many mutual friends (esp student friends) could afford to go on vacations.

I was like.. most of them can't - they're doing it on credit cards / with student loans, etc. She was shocked that most people weren't saving up for everything first to when they could afford it.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: aclarridge on March 01, 2013, 11:53:21 AM
I'd rather have friends and family believing it's possible and rooting for me than saying it can't happen and saying I'll fail (even up to and after pulling the plug).

I think honest, open discussion about it is more likely to lead to the former, whereas hiding it is more likely to lead to the latter.

YMMV.

I see your point, but I think mustachians are generally contrarians who may thrive on people telling them what they can't do. For me, the concept of proving certain people in my life wrong once I reach FI is a nice little motivator (not the main one, just an added bonus). I have some family members who just kind of smile and nod if I talk about my goals, clearly unbelieving. I actually look forward to the day when I'll get to argue that my FI lifestyle is, in fact, sustainable.

The idea of discussing it all the time to everybody just seems exhausting - good on you for having the energy or desire for it since maybe it will make some people think. I just feel that personally, those types of arguments can shorten my life span by a little bit from the stress it gives me.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: mobilisinmobili on March 01, 2013, 12:25:28 PM
Usually the first thing I would hear from people is some kind of "but, *insert complain/excuse here*" when I mentioned it, so I mostly stopped mentioning it.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Self-employed-swami on March 01, 2013, 12:38:45 PM
I've actually found it easier lately, to not bring it up at all, and if people want us to spend money, I say we can't afford it, as I am off work for 6 months.

However, I do talk about frugality openly, and ways to easily save money.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Nords on March 01, 2013, 10:56:26 PM
Word of this had reached my fathers ears, and he has informed that he wants to sit down and talk about "things" over a beer or two. I know for a fact that he will judge my plans as IMPOSSIBLE to pull off - but he has no idea about the size of our "Stache" (thanks to wifes recent bonus its clocking in at close to 900k, paid for house, blah blah blah) and he can't reconcile that my wife and I can easily live on 30k per year. He will probably think it unmanly for me to stop work while my wife happily continues her career. No intention of sharing my financial numbers with him...
This is going to be interesting.
For what it's worth, my father-in-law still thinks that I'm going to put his only daughter and his only grandchild out on the streets.  He's amazed that I've lasted as long as I have.  But then he's still upset that I've been sleeping with his daughter.  For over 30 years now.

Meanwhile about 12 years ago I was kvetching to my Dad regarding my own impending military retirement and not finding any interesting jobs.  He looked at me and said "Why do you want to get a job?  Haven't you been saving your money all these years?"  So I dedicated my book to him.

You will probably never obtain your father's financial endorsement, let alone his approval.  The best you'll do is to say that you plan to take a few months off and see how it goes from there.  Your "boss assures you that you can come back within 12 months".  You "need to take some time off to work on your marriage".  You "want to spend some time with the kids".  Maybe he'll shake his head and possibly even warn you that he's not the Bank of Dad anymore.  Then you'll just have to go on living your life on your terms.  If he asks, you could keep telling him that your boss offered you an indefinite unpaid leave of absence while you're enjoying spending time with the family.

I guess the best you could hope for is that someday he'll be complaining happily to friends & neighbors about how you seem to be surviving without a real job.  I think that's giving my father-in-law his will to live...
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Jon_Snow on March 02, 2013, 07:46:17 AM
Great post there Nords... always appreciated your contributions over on the "other" early retirement forum.

I am not really going to understands my fathers concerns until we have our "talk". It may be that he is merely concerned that I don't the financial means to do this. Perhaps he thinks it wrong that I quit work while my wife soldiers on - although I have told her than she can probably join me in a new kind of life. It may be that I should share some details of our finances with him - for some reason it is important to have my parents support in this.

The way I look at it is that I am miserable in my current career - I bring bad mojo when I come home to my wife, hurting our marriage. My wife makes just into six figures - add to this our investment income - and I would say we will be bringing in about 80k in after tax income, while we have alot of trouble spending more than 30k annually.

To me, it is the height of insanity for me to keep working in a job that is slowly but assuredly killing me. I might have to express these feelings to my father... not sure how I am going to approach this yet.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Jaherman99 on March 02, 2013, 07:51:44 AM
I'd rather have friends and family believing it's possible and rooting for me than saying it can't happen and saying I'll fail (even up to and after pulling the plug).

I think honest, open discussion about it is more likely to lead to the former, whereas hiding it is more likely to lead to the latter.

YMMV.

Actually, I bet that when you "retire" *quotes for the retirement police* most folks will call you a landlord and not consider you retired at all  :)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on March 02, 2013, 08:03:17 AM
I'd rather have friends and family believing it's possible and rooting for me than saying it can't happen and saying I'll fail (even up to and after pulling the plug).

I think honest, open discussion about it is more likely to lead to the former, whereas hiding it is more likely to lead to the latter.

YMMV.

Actually, I bet that when you "retire" *quotes for the retirement police* most folks will call you a landlord and not consider you retired at all  :)

Touché.

Even when I turn over all management to a property manager, just merely owning rentals will mean I'm not retired, to some people (including other early retirees).

/shrug

I don't care if others think I'm retired or not.  Heck, if they think I'm still "working" that avoids the whole"it's impossible" argument.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Ozstache on March 02, 2013, 05:10:14 PM
The way I look at it is that I am miserable in my current career - I bring bad mojo when I come home to my wife, hurting our marriage. My wife makes just into six figures - add to this our investment income - and I would say we will be bringing in about 80k in after tax income, while we have alot of trouble spending more than 30k annually.

To me, it is the height of insanity for me to keep working in a job that is slowly but assuredly killing me. I might have to express these feelings to my father... not sure how I am going to approach this yet.

Perhaps you should just say to your father what you wrote in the preceding paragraph. It makes damn good sense to me!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Skyn_Flynt on March 02, 2013, 05:23:40 PM
One of the other forums I read, discusses international family relationships.

Sometimes it's a very good idea, to look and act poor. In some parts of the world, you are at risk of being "followed" because townsfolk cannot resist gossiping about the wealthy foreigner visiting for a while. This news circulates and finds its way to the wrong people.

Even after you leave, those friends or inlaws you left behind, could be at risk of blackmail or kidnapping due to their connection to somebody of means.

Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: cats on March 02, 2013, 06:25:53 PM

I have a friend who works in a bar.. she's around 24.. financially responsible. She mentioned casually she had no idea how so many mutual friends (esp student friends) could afford to go on vacations.

I was like.. most of them can't - they're doing it on credit cards / with student loans, etc. She was shocked that most people weren't saving up for everything first to when they could afford it.

I always wonder about this too--I can never quite figure if it's that people are not doing as much longer-term saving as I think of as "normal" or if they've actually veered into the realm of cc debt, etc.  At one point I thought maybe I was just making a lot less money or something, now I realize that's probably not the main explanation!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I do tell people about it, sort of.  I have told a few close friends that I'm aiming for FI in my mid-30s and they're not negative but they also don't really believe it.  Which, whatever...they say things that I think are crazy, so I guess we're even.  If I am talking with more casual friends/acquaintances, I don't flat out say "I want to be retired at 35", but I will say things like "oh, I'm trying to save up money for a down payment", or sometimes "I'm trying to save up some money now so I don't have to worry about it so much when I have kids in a few years".  Likewise, if people comment on some of my "cheap" habits, most of them have non-monetary benefits too.  Like "I don't really like living on my own, it gets lonely/creepy sometimes" (to the question of why I still have a roommate when I can afford rent on an apartment on my own), or "I'm trying to eat healthier" (to the question of why I'm not going out to eat for lunch").  I do find if you spin the non-financial benefits of your choices, people tend to be much more positive about them and maybe more inclined to adopt some of them.  I think many people are super sensitive about their money and so talking about your financial goals/habits can come off as criticism (even if that's not at all your intention), so they're more receptive to suggestions/ideas in areas where they are not as sensitive.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Erica/NWEdible on March 02, 2013, 09:02:52 PM
I yammer a lot about spending values. That's the approach I take - allocating your funds to the stuff/goals/objectives that are most important to you. Taking the time to really think about what it is you want and then supporting that. I don't go in for the personal FI conversations that much though. I get my MMM type support network from this forum.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: sol on April 02, 2013, 10:48:29 AM
I've usually been pretty open with friends and coworkers about our plans to retire early by saving lots of money, but recently there has been more of a backlash from people who think it is only possible for us because we have two earners with decent paychecks. They haven't figured out that your retirement date is set by your savings percentage, not your income level.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: matchewed on April 02, 2013, 11:09:23 AM
I do tell people. Mostly friends, family, and a few trusted co-workers.

Am I met with resistance? Yes. From some it is resistance from the concept itself, that it produces a miserly life or is impossible if I want to live "normal." The conversations usually get a bit philosophical from then on regarding what "normal" means and individuals ability to define that for themselves... yadda yadda.

Some resistance is from the how side of it. That it cannot be possible. I usually use the 100 dollar salary example to make it simple, which is of course just an obvious analogy for the percent of income idea. Most reactions are just disbelief at that point, or that I'm just reducing a much more complicated process (life) into just an equation and that means no way can it work. More often than not I tell them I'll find a part time job or side gig if I think I'm failing at it. For the closest I just reveal my net worth and tell them how long it took to get there and how long it'll take to get to my goal. Most of them just stop protesting and start thinking at that point.

Pretty much none of the people I tell buy into it though. That's okay they don't have to in my mind.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: brewer12345 on April 02, 2013, 11:21:19 AM
This is something that has resurfaced as a mild concern given that I am preparing to cut the cord next year.  I have in the past (years ago) bluntly told my father that I was saving to ER (does not compute for him).  More recently, I have articulated my current plan as a goal to a co-worker I also consider a friend.  I have dropped some hints with my sister, and DW managed to spill the beans to her mother somewhat unintentionally.  I think the cover story I will use at first is that I am taking a sabbatical and considering entrepreneurial ventures.  If someone is obnoxious about it or does not get it, I will tell them I plan to get by through the miracle of the loafs and the fishes: I loafs and I fishes and its a miracle I get by.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: psychomoustache on April 02, 2013, 11:35:47 AM
matchewed maybe I missed something, what's the 100 dollar salary example?

I am currently reading Jacob's ER extreme book, and am loving it. I have to think this is just going to HAVE to catch on mainstream someday, but I suppose I am just a pink-cloud optimist... ?
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: matchewed on April 02, 2013, 11:57:27 AM
Well it's like the percent of income scenario.

Assume you had a 100 dollar income. You could spend 99 dollars of it and save one dollar. In 99 years you would have saved enough for one year vacation. If you saved two dollars it would take 25 years to save for a one year vacation. You can keep breaking this down into any number of dollars saved or years of vacation, sort of like if you saved 50 dollars from you 100 dollar income you could save for a one year vacation in one year (or five years of vacation in five years).

It is simplistic and it doesn't take into account compound interest but it does illustrate the concept of saving a percentage of your income and what impact that has and how powerful that impact is versus things like compound interest.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Tyler on April 02, 2013, 12:33:45 PM
Does anyone avoid telling their family out of fear that the relative with savings will quickly become the family backstop/bank of choice? 

Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: matchewed on April 02, 2013, 12:43:40 PM
I guess kinda?

I'll only tell those I'm close with and that includes family members. Don't know how it is for others but if I'm close to someone whether they are family or friends is irrelevant.

What that means is that I'm probably not really close to the people who seek to use me as a bank. I've helped family members before. But I've truly evaluated whether they need the help, or are they just unwilling to help themselves.

I've got my friends and family's back. I won't if it gets abused.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Adventine on April 02, 2013, 06:00:28 PM
Does anyone avoid telling their family out of fear that the relative with savings will quickly become the family backstop/bank of choice?

Me. I'm currently involved in the family business as a "silent investor." It's only one of my side income streams apart from my full time job. It's working out well so far. Perhaps too well, to the point that my dad thinks I'm an ATM from whom he can withdraw capital just by texting me "I need X amount today," without any prior heads up. He was not pleased when I said no.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Bigote on April 03, 2013, 01:21:28 AM
I was met with the "yeah right" attitude. But that comes from people who have locked themselves into $750k mortgages and are paying $25k+ per child per year in private school fees. Oh and they also buy Mercedes 7 seat vans every couple of years to carry their 2 kids around.

I'm reminded of one of our employees. He's a senior level guy, and he actually makes more than we do, and we own the business. His house cost him three or four times what ours did, he and his wife both drive leased cars, and his kids go to a $30K/year private school. He wears custom-made shirts which, when you've got credit card debt out the ass, doesn't seem that wise. Especially since we're a business casual office. A Target shirt would be fine. His wife takes off with "the girls" (her friends, not her daughters) at the drop of the hat to Vegas, the beach, and NYC.

We're in much better shape financially (relatively speaking) and our outlay is minimal compared to his, even though we bring home about $10k less per year. He's just in the hole so deep, he can't even imagine doing what it would take to get out of it.


Sounds lie the perfect employee!  He put his chains on himself.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on April 03, 2013, 07:10:14 AM
If someone had $100,000 saved at age 20, that would seem like a lot. $100,000 at age 70... not so much. Most people don't make the distinction so the number is entirely meaningless.

Sure.  But while your example makes the money seem like a lot when young, snd not so much when old, there's an opposite scenario..

Here's the flipside, when people don't make that distinction they can think someone has a lot when they really don't.

Imagine someone who has 500k at 30 and wants to ER versus someone at 80 with 500k - people assume they have the same, and might want to hit them up like an ATM the same, but the person at 30 has to make it last a lot longer, so that 500k at 30 is a lot LESS than the 500k at 80, in terms of excess funds.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Tyler on April 03, 2013, 10:19:23 AM
My problem is more along Arebelspy's point. 

I never share absolute numbers with anyone, even family.  But once you graduate to any type of conversation like "I don't need a job anymore" that is a fairly provocative statement for those who are struggling financially.  And "I don't need a job, but I still can't afford to give you money" doesn't add up for most people. 

I'll never leave my family out to dry, but money has been a flashpoint in the past and I fear how knowledge of it will affect relationship dynamics.  FWIW, I still think I have it easy compared to others - I've known people whose cultures pretty much expect anyone of means to support the entire family financially. 
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Apocalyptica602 on April 03, 2013, 02:32:03 PM
I just omit certain facts and bend the truth a little.

I'll say 'Oh I barely have enough cash to cover my expenses this month.'

This isn't a lie. I just omit the fact that I'm investing $2000/month into retirement accounts, with any spillover going toward debt repayment / taxable investments.

I've started this trend because I'm getting my over 40 year old uncle asking his 24 year old nephew (me) for cash every other month or so to cover his rent so he can fund his shopping addiction.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: mikefixac on April 03, 2013, 04:26:35 PM
Seems like someone spends his days, googling himself...

 

Poor Joshua can't win for losing.

Joshua, I http://www.joshuakennon.com/ read your blog (http://www.joshuakennon.com/ read your blog) and I'm a big fan.

(Could someone show me how to use the hyperlink button? I can't figure it out.)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: AnonymousCoward on April 03, 2013, 04:53:57 PM
(Could someone show me how to use the hyperlink button? I can't figure it out.)

This code:
Code: [Select]
[url=http://url.com]click this text![/url]turns into this link:
click this text! (http://url.com)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: sheepstache on April 03, 2013, 07:26:53 PM
I freely talk about finance and my finances explicitly (seriously, try to stop me).  But I don't talk about FI because a) I'm not dead set on it as a goal.  I want the flexibility that this path offers, but if in the future opportunities come along that are more appealing and that are mutually exclusive, I would choose them over FI.  I mean, when I put it like that, duh.  My point is FI isn't the absolute most best thing I can imagine.  And b) it feels a bit like those people who go around telling everyone they're on a diet all the time but never seem to lose any weight.   There's some psychological term for it; telling people about your goal gives you the same rush as though you'd actually achieved it and therefore takes away your motivation to do it.  There's some contrary evidence too, that sharing your goals with a like-minded set of people (like this forum?) can help boost motivation.  I think it's just a difference of approach.  But the 'do not talk about fight club' angle suits me a little better.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Hotstreak on April 07, 2013, 12:01:00 AM
I just started working towards ER a few months ago and it's meant a pretty major change in my spending, and a pretty major change for me personally too.  I've told my close friends and family that I'm working to pay off my student loan this year, so they will understand when I don't want to go on expensive trips or back out of certain activities.  I haven't really talked about saving for retirement as the reason I'm doing this.. people seem to understand paying off student loans as being a pretty normal goal, especially when they're 6.7% right now.

That'll be done this year.  Next year I want to max my IRA(@ 20% of my take home), so that's another common sense reason for not spending much.  When I get in to a higher paying position at work it's going to be about saving for a house, then paying off a house, then maybe saving for kids education, or working to buy another property or invest in something tangible.  I think all of those are things that people can relate to, or have lived through.  For the typical consumer, doing any of those would mean every spare cent is going there, but with my low funds required to live, I believe I'll be able to save substantial amounts in investment accounts for the same time.  If I time it right, I'll be FI just about the time I run out of excuses not to spend :).  I'm comfortable giving people a story that makes them feel they understand what I'm doing, but what I'm ACTUALLY doing is really none of anybody's business except mine.  And strangers on the internet.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: prosaic on April 07, 2013, 06:08:10 AM
"We have a lot of debt" or "Our son's medical bills are incredibly high" are two very true statements we are using to help essentially cover what is going on in our lives financially.

Both are true: $250K mortgage and 4 figures/month for medical bills. Yet we still have a 6-figure net worth and a small business that suddenly took off (5 figure profit last month). We won't tell people what's really going on, for a few reasons, such as jealousy and requests for help from people we've watched blow through money like crazy.

Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on April 07, 2013, 07:10:07 AM
I just omit certain facts and bend the truth a little.

I'll say 'Oh I barely have enough cash to cover my expenses this month.'

"We have a lot of debt" or "Our son's medical bills are incredibly high" are two very true statements we are using to help essentially cover what is going on in our lives financially.

I don't care for statements like these personally, even if they can be viewed as true in a certain light, simply because they can be viewed as a lie in another light, and that light will turn on.  What happens when you FIRE?

All those people you've been telling that for years feel quite deceived, and won't be happy with an explanation of "if you look at it this way I was being honest..."

I'd rather say nothing, if I wasn't comfortable being open about it.

YMMV, to each his own.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Zaga on April 07, 2013, 08:04:23 AM
This topic has come up spontaneously around me several times recently:

1.  At the mechanic's getting my car fixed - I was talking to him about replacing my car in about a year and asking about car makes.  He said if I bought X car it would likely last me 10 years until retirement.  Now I'm 33 years old and can easily pass for 25.  When I said I'd only be 43 in 10 years he seemed to think that was about right.  This is my mechanic!  He knows nothing about me, we interact maybe twice a year, so having his say my next car could take me to retirement was pretty surprising and nice.

2.  A new friend and I went out for lunch, and talking it turns out we both think we'll be able to retire by 50.  So now I have a new FI buddy!  Hopefully we're both being pessimistic :-)

3.  An old friend I work with shares a lot of finances, we are both improving our finances together though we're at different stages.  She doesn't think it's at all weird or impossible that either of us can retire early.

These are just some examples, gives me hope for the future.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: prosaic on April 07, 2013, 11:29:23 AM
I just omit certain facts and bend the truth a little.

I'll say 'Oh I barely have enough cash to cover my expenses this month.'

"We have a lot of debt" or "Our son's medical bills are incredibly high" are two very true statements we are using to help essentially cover what is going on in our lives financially.

I don't care for statements like these personally, even if they can be viewed as true in a certain light, simply because they can be viewed as a lie in another light, and that light will turn on.  What happens when you FIRE?

All those people you've been telling that for years feel quite deceived, and won't be happy with an explanation of "if you look at it this way I was being honest..."

I'd rather say nothing, if I wasn't comfortable being open about it.

YMMV, to each his own.

In our case they are true, though. $250K is a huge debt. Our son does (and will, likely, for the next 10+ years) have a four-figure/month medical debt.

What people read into that is something I can't control.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: arebelspy on April 07, 2013, 11:43:13 AM
I just omit certain facts and bend the truth a little.

I'll say 'Oh I barely have enough cash to cover my expenses this month.'

"We have a lot of debt" or "Our son's medical bills are incredibly high" are two very true statements we are using to help essentially cover what is going on in our lives financially.

I don't care for statements like these personally, even if they can be viewed as true in a certain light, simply because they can be viewed as a lie in another light, and that light will turn on.  What happens when you FIRE?

All those people you've been telling that for years feel quite deceived, and won't be happy with an explanation of "if you look at it this way I was being honest..."

I'd rather say nothing, if I wasn't comfortable being open about it.

YMMV, to each his own.

In our case they are true, though. $250K is a huge debt. Our son does (and will, likely, for the next 10+ years) have a four-figure/month medical debt.

What people read into that is something I can't control.

You seem to have missed my point.

That is well and good, but what happens when you say that for 10 years, it all being true, then you FIRE ten years from now?  People will feel deceived, regardless of how "true" those weasel statements were.

If it works for you though, great.
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: the fixer on April 07, 2013, 12:16:32 PM
I just told two people about MMM on Friday! I typically toss in little tidbits of finance and investing into normal conversation to see who picks up on it. Then I'll continue to vet those people and introduce them at a time when it's appropriate (like if the methodology of MMM might help them with reaching a life goal they currently think is impossible)
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Mo Money on April 15, 2013, 07:39:26 PM
Well, time to stop lurking, register, and lose my posting virginity, so here goes:  I tell only family and close friends who don't have any likely connection to the office.  At the office, it would likely only become a reason to refuse me a raise or otherwise snipe at me.  And even regarding telling family and close friends, I honestly wonder at the wisdom of doing so.  Am I really just bragging?  But that fear is counterbalanced with the desire to try to encourage others to save and reduce their hyper-consumer lifestyle.  In some ways, I really just want to "pay it forward":  The frugality advice I've gotten is a real gift.  (I'm FI now, but am just feathering the nest at this point.)  I'd like to find a way to steer others down the FIRE path without seeming like a pompous ass....
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: FitStash on April 16, 2013, 09:58:54 AM
Ha!
Don't leave us hanging...did he...did he get your location right?

Here it is. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Canada-satellite.jpg)

I wish I could like or +1 posts on this forum.

BTW, that satellite got me too...

He put me in Ottawa.  He got the country correct at least. 

He'd have had gotten much closer, if he just looked at the mustache map thread.
:D

Oh NOES, my real reason for setting up the Mustache Map has been revealed!
Title: Re: Do you tell people?
Post by: Self-employed-swami on April 16, 2013, 07:07:36 PM
Ha!