Do you share your FIRE journey with friends?

[4tify]

The amount you're paid is set by your replacement cost, which is mainly based on market forces plus your output. Unless your employer is particularly vindictive or low-rent, they're not going to care whether you "need" that money or not. And if anything, your employer knowing that you can walk away to a competitor firm tomorrow means that they will be more objective about your output, not less. If you've been dealing with your employer on a "I need this pay rise because....[insert non-market related reason here, e.g., I like the company/I need it to pay the mortgage]", then the employer probably already has more of an upper hand than is desirable.

Every pay discussion should basically come from this point of view (as an employee):
- I am worth this much (x) because if I left, you would be paying x + recruitment costs to recruit a replacement. Therefore, pay me x.

Love this. What does it cost to recruit?

Depends on the position and the job market at the time.

It would cost my company about $7000 in headhunting fees to replace my assistant with someone about 25% as competent. There's a huge shortage of staff for that particular role in Canada, so absolutely no one wants to lose them. Their pay rates are sky rocketing upwards of double industry standard 5 years ago.

Meanwhile, I replaced myself with a single phone call. There's a huge oversupply of my type of professional.

Time to become an assistant! ;)

[ChickenStash]

I have a close friend that is kinda MMM-lite and we share some financial details from time to time. Usually not too specific but he knows roughly where I'm at in relation to my FI goals and what I'm doing to reach them. Other friends might be a little aware of small parts based on passing conversations but it's not something I bring up unless asked.

Not everyone is interested in giving up on luxuries today or being FI so they wouldn't be interested in the details of FIRE. There's nothing wrong with that and there's no reason to push them.

[asauer]

We used to but don't anymore.  We always phrased as 'this is what works best for us'.  But there was so much drama around these discussions.  So much 'well, you can do that b/c'  or 'I can't do that because'.  It really showed me how much people get taken in by fatalism in finance.

[24andfrugal]

I don't. Most of them do not seem to be interested in finances, and I am also in better financial shape than most of them so it would be hard to imagine a conversation on finances not turning awkward or uncomfortable. I am in my mid-20s, and a marker of my age group is for people to be broke, living at home, and not really sure what they're doing. That definitely isn't true for everyone I know, but it is for some, so I try to be careful how I talk about my own financial and career plans and goals. Since we live pretty frugally, I sometimes wonder if people assume we are actually worse off than we are.

I distinctly remember going out to lunch with some coworkers and my boss and the conversation turning to commiserating about student loans. I didn't say a single word. I am very fortunate that my parents paid for my undergrad, which definitely has given me an advantage. Somewhat less obvious is that more than half of that was at a community college before I turned 18, and in the past 3 years I've been in the workforce I've paid all my bills myself, have not lived at home, and have saved up close to or just over $100,000, which I feel should count for something. But again, it's hard to imagine a financial conversation that wouldn't turn awkward.

[DadJokes]

Like MrThatsDifferent, when I first became interested in personal finance, I excitedly told everyone about my plans. I was basically Dave Ramsey's unpaid promoter. After a few years, that excitement wore off. Then I learned about early retirement, a concept I had never even considered. While I wasn't as...fervent as I had been with Dave Ramsey's stuff, I was still more than happy to share my plans to retire early anytime conversation remotely approached finances or the market. As a result, I've shared my early retirement plan with various friends, family members, and coworkers. I've regretted telling almost all friends and family.

When my wife & her siblings decided to get their mom wireless earbuds for Mother's Day, I suggested getting the same ones I had, which work just fine and cost ~$45. SIL is only willing to get Apple Airpods, because they're "the best." Instead of splitting a $45 cost, our share of the cost was now more than $45, all for a product that MIL will use for a few hours per week and eventually lose (scatterbrained, bless her heart). Before SIL knew that we saved half our income, we could just say that it's not in our budget to spend that much and be done with it. Now, if I say that, I'm a cheapskate.

The only people I haven't regretted telling, strangely enough, are coworkers. I usually get some follow-up questions after sharing my plan, so I think it has had a positive influence. I doubt it was anything more than curiosity, but I would like to think that those people decided to put some of that information to use.

One possible contributing factor to the different reactions I've gotten is the age difference. The friends & family I've told were all older or similar in ages to me, whereas most of the coworkers I've told were in a similar role to me, but generally 5+ years younger. I don't think that people like hearing

As I continue in my life, I'll probably save my sharing for people who are younger than me. I can hopefully reach more people around me as I age. When I actually FIRE, I don't think that I'll be able to avoid telling friends & family the truth. I'll probably lose a few friends along the way, and some people will probably continue to think that I'm very selfish. C'est la vie.

[helloyou]

Like MrThatsDifferent, when I first became interested in personal finance, I excitedly told everyone about my plans. I was basically Dave Ramsey's unpaid promoter. After a few years, that excitement wore off. Then I learned about early retirement, a concept I had never even considered. While I wasn't as...fervent as I had been with Dave Ramsey's stuff, I was still more than happy to share my plans to retire early anytime conversation remotely approached finances or the market. As a result, I've shared my early retirement plan with various friends, family members, and coworkers. I've regretted telling almost all friends and family.

When my wife & her siblings decided to get their mom wireless earbuds for Mother's Day, I suggested getting the same ones I had, which work just fine and cost ~$45. SIL is only willing to get Apple Airpods, because they're "the best." Instead of splitting a $45 cost, our share of the cost was now more than $45, all for a product that MIL will use for a few hours per week and eventually lose (scatterbrained, bless her heart). Before SIL knew that we saved half our income, we could just say that it's not in our budget to spend that much and be done with it. Now, if I say that, I'm a cheapskate.

The only people I haven't regretted telling, strangely enough, are coworkers. I usually get some follow-up questions after sharing my plan, so I think it has had a positive influence. I doubt it was anything more than curiosity, but I would like to think that those people decided to put some of that information to use.

One possible contributing factor to the different reactions I've gotten is the age difference. The friends & family I've told were all older or similar in ages to me, whereas most of the coworkers I've told were in a similar role to me, but generally 5+ years younger. I don't think that people like hearing

As I continue in my life, I'll probably save my sharing for people who are younger than me. I can hopefully reach more people around me as I age. When I actually FIRE, I don't think that I'll be able to avoid telling friends & family the truth. I'll probably lose a few friends along the way, and some people will probably continue to think that I'm very selfish. C'est la vie.

But was the cost of the airport still 50/50? If so then it's not that much of a problem and you'd be called cheap in any case.

I've been called cheap many times because I usually don't like spending. Even with people who don't know my finance. Because I won't spend on expensive drink (I still drink but won't by the £10 cocktail) or go to expensive places. Other would go and spend the money even if they are on debt!

But as long as there are no abuse I assume it would be ok? I'm just a bit worried to be seen as the milking cow lol

[DadJokes]

But was the cost of the airport still 50/50? If so then it's not that much of a problem and you'd be called cheap in any case.

It went from ~$45 split three ways to >$200 split three ways. It reads as a one-off scenario, but it was just part of a pattern of issues with us coming up with a reasonable gift idea for MIL/FIL and SIL only okay with it if we buy "the best" of whatever item we all agreed upon. She's what you might call a yuppie or a hipster.

And I would probably be considered me cheap in any case. They still know what my profession is, so they probably have some idea of our income. Them knowing my retirement plans is just more ammo for them. At the very least, sharing my goal did nothing to benefit us or them.

[seattlecyclone]

Before FIRE I never made much of a secret that I was pursuing this goal. I even started a mailing list at my company for people seeking FIRE to connect and discuss the topic. The number of members grew to a pretty impressive size by the time I left. 

What I didn't do was start conversations about the topic all the time, as that would be annoying. If FIRE was reasonably related to the existing topic of conversation I might mention it. I also kept specifics about the timing of my exit very close to the vest. My boss (who was also on the mailing list even though I never mentioned it to him) got two weeks notice just like pretty much everyone else.

[Metalcat]

The amount you're paid is set by your replacement cost, which is mainly based on market forces plus your output. Unless your employer is particularly vindictive or low-rent, they're not going to care whether you "need" that money or not. And if anything, your employer knowing that you can walk away to a competitor firm tomorrow means that they will be more objective about your output, not less. If you've been dealing with your employer on a "I need this pay rise because....[insert non-market related reason here, e.g., I like the company/I need it to pay the mortgage]", then the employer probably already has more of an upper hand than is desirable.

Every pay discussion should basically come from this point of view (as an employee):
- I am worth this much (x) because if I left, you would be paying x + recruitment costs to recruit a replacement. Therefore, pay me x.

Love this. What does it cost to recruit?

Depends on the position and the job market at the time.

It would cost my company about $7000 in headhunting fees to replace my assistant with someone about 25% as competent. There's a huge shortage of staff for that particular role in Canada, so absolutely no one wants to lose them. Their pay rates are sky rocketing upwards of double industry standard 5 years ago.

Meanwhile, I replaced myself with a single phone call. There's a huge oversupply of my type of professional.

Time to become an assistant! ;)

I'm a medical professional, my assistant is also a medical professional. Still, it's not the assistant that gets the money, it's the head hunter, and the wages doubling just brings them up to a more reasonable comp level as they've been underpaid for decades, many making just a few dollars above minimum wage. We have a critical shortage because the job absolutely sucks and no one wants to do it anymore.

Perhaps instead you should be thinking "time to become a recruiter"

[Rdy2Fire]

At the start when I first discovered FIRE I got overexcited about it and talked to some friends about it, but because they were in a different place mentally regarding finances, it ended up causing tension in the relationships with people I brought it up with. So now I try to only bring it up with friends who I've scoped out in advance with other related conversation topics as being likely to be open to the idea of it.

+1 to this. I usually keep my finances private, and talk only with my fiance and one close friend, unless asked. I've found that more often than not it breeds jealousy or people start trying to take advantage. Like, I'm not going to start footing the bill for drinks just because I'm frugal and have more money- but not everyone sees it that way. So, best to keep it quiet.

+1 as well.

I don't know why it matters to people but it seems to; I try and avoid the subject usually it centers around "when are you going to get a job"

[kanga1622]

I have one coworker that I share small pieces of financial information with. She has taken on a few of my suggestions about using electronic coupons/rebates on purchases you would make anyway and also shopping some discount sites that I've shared with her. She wants to dig herself out of debt, but her choices baffle me many times. Hard to pay off that closed credit card when you are going out for $4 salads every day for lunch (at least it is a Walmart salad and not a restaurant).

I just encourage and show her budgeting tools and ways to save if she asks. While she could be doing much better, she's made some strides in some areas.

So I guess I focus less on FIRE and more on responsible money management. No way FIRE can happen until you get the basics worked out.

[Plina]

My brother has a coworker that strives for fire that is a cheapskate according to my brother.

I haven’t told that I am striving for Fire but my family has a pretty good idea of my finances. We or at least me talk a lot of finance with my parents as I help them with various internetrelaterade things but they don’t know my actual numbers. I took a sabbatical two years ago to travel in southeastasia for 6 months but I was basically 9 months free. My brother concluded that he only knew two people that could afford to do it: the coworker and me. Now I quit my job without anything in place. I told my parents that I could live more than a year without no pay and no changes in my lifestyle because otherwise they would have been worried. My family and relatives also think I am a kind of cheapskate, at least in some cases.

I have told several of my friends that I don’t want to be dependent on my salary and I told a coworker that I could survive a pretty long period without work. Combine that with a sabbatical they know that I am not likely to start. To my boss I might have given a different view as I wanted her to pay as much as possible to get rid of me. :-)

[clarkfan1979]

I talk real estate and stocks with my friends, but never FIRE. All of my friends pretty much spend 100% of what they make. Things are now starting to change a little bit at age 40. Some of my friends are trying to figure out their finances. I'm guessing that we might be able to start talking about it around age 45 after they have some positive gains for a few years.

[Bloop Bloop]

I talk real estate and stocks with my friends, but never FIRE. All of my friends pretty much spend 100% of what they make. Things are now starting to change a little bit at age 40. Some of my friends are trying to figure out their finances. I'm guessing that we might be able to start talking about it around age 45 after they have some positive gains for a few years.

I don't think I could be friends with people who spend 100% of what they make, unless they were low-income earners, or had some special reason to be spending so lavishly (e.g. medicare expenses or disability expenses or something). Otherwise, anyone middle-class or over who spends that much just has very different values from me (like, what is there in life, other than medical emergencies and stuff, to actually spend so much on? Faberge eggs?) and we would find it hard to find common ground.

[Paul der Krake]

Evangelists are annoying, doesn't matter what they preach. Especially the ones who recently discovered The One True Way and can't wait to tell everyone about it. Whether it's Jesus, Linux, essential oils, or FIRE. Nobody cares.

[helloyou]

I have one coworker that I share small pieces of financial information with. She has taken on a few of my suggestions about using electronic coupons/rebates on purchases you would make anyway and also shopping some discount sites that I've shared with her. She wants to dig herself out of debt, but her choices baffle me many times. Hard to pay off that closed credit card when you are going out for $4 salads every day for lunch (at least it is a Walmart salad and not a restaurant).

I just encourage and show her budgeting tools and ways to save if she asks. While she could be doing much better, she's made some strides in some areas.

So I guess I focus less on FIRE and more on responsible money management. No way FIRE can happen until you get the basics worked out.

Does it make much difference to eat out for $4? I used to spend double that every day at work during lunch time. For your colleague, making food herself maybe can save her $2/day? And over a year maybe save $400?

Does it make much difference in the grand scheme of things to FI? Let say she invested this and made 3%/year on it over 20 years to adjust for inflation. That would bump it to $722 inflation excluded.

That's not even enough enough to pay for 1 month rent? For that she would maybe have preferred to get ready made salad and enjoy her time?

[BookLoverL]

I have one coworker that I share small pieces of financial information with. She has taken on a few of my suggestions about using electronic coupons/rebates on purchases you would make anyway and also shopping some discount sites that I've shared with her. She wants to dig herself out of debt, but her choices baffle me many times. Hard to pay off that closed credit card when you are going out for $4 salads every day for lunch (at least it is a Walmart salad and not a restaurant).

I just encourage and show her budgeting tools and ways to save if she asks. While she could be doing much better, she's made some strides in some areas.

So I guess I focus less on FIRE and more on responsible money management. No way FIRE can happen until you get the basics worked out.

Does it make much difference to eat out for $4? I used to spend double that every day at work during lunch time. For your colleague, making food herself maybe can save her $2/day? And over a year maybe save $400?

Does it make much difference in the grand scheme of things to FI? Let say she invested this and made 3%/year on it over 20 years to adjust for inflation. That would bump it to $722 inflation excluded.

That's not even enough enough to pay for 1 month rent? For that she would maybe have preferred to get ready made salad and enjoy her time?

I have a low income since I can only work part time and $400 dollars is just over £300, which is between 2 and 3 percent of what I expect to earn this year. And for someone earning £18000 it would be 1 and 2/3 percent of their income. So it would only take 5 or 10 similar decisions to be using 10% of your income on similar sorts of things.

Of course, if that's what the person described wants to spend it on, that's their choice, but figures in the hundreds range aren't insignificant for a lot of people.

[friedmmj]

I talk real estate and stocks with my friends, but never FIRE. All of my friends pretty much spend 100% of what they make. Things are now starting to change a little bit at age 40. Some of my friends are trying to figure out their finances. I'm guessing that we might be able to start talking about it around age 45 after they have some positive gains for a few years.

I don't think I could be friends with people who spend 100% of what they make, unless they were low-income earners, or had some special reason to be spending so lavishly (e.g. medicare expenses or disability expenses or something). Otherwise, anyone middle-class or over who spends that much just has very different values from me (like, what is there in life, other than medical emergencies and stuff, to actually spend so much on? Faberge eggs?) and we would find it hard to find common ground.

OK, that seems a tad odd to me.  Why would that aspect of a person's life disqualify them from being your friend?  Are you afraid they would ask you for a loan or something?

[Linea_Norway]

We told our friends via facebook that we are taking a year off, because DH wanted to say that. I wonder what kind of question we'll get afterwards. People have already reassured me that I will easily find another job when the year is over.

I have by the way told one friend, who is disabled and gets a sickness pension for the rest of her life. So she is herself FIREd in a way. Her husband still needs to work though.

I told FIL and unfortunately he has been babbling, telling many of his aquaintances. They have told him that we are way too young to be pensioners. Hevdoes live in another country, so we are not directly affected by this gossip, but Inhad expected better of him. I didn't tell my mother because she is guanranteed to tell everyone else, like her hairdresser. She way by the way very understanding of taking a year off, forvthe same argument that I use. My dad dies when he was 50, so you never know how many years you have left. Better enjoy some freedom while you still can.

[rebel_quietude]

I have just one friend I've talked with about asset allocation, etc, and I gave her a clean copy of my calc spread sheet. We're pretty close, and she has a great deal of common sense - no regrets. However, I don't share numbers with her or anyone - comparison is the thief of joy.

I'm with @DadJokes on junior co-workers. My profession has a time horizon - you're in for this many years, then you're out. I'm already comparatively long-in-the-tooth. So it's not awkward to herd them all together and say:

"Welcome. Now you have a paycheck and access to savings vehicles. This is your assigned reading ("Random walk down wall street,") here's a clean copy of the calc spreadsheet, the position you find yourself in when you leave this job is up to you."

I don't use the word FIRE and I don't convey personal details, but I do make it clear a 50% savings rate makes you FI in 20 years.

Not all of them will change their behavior because of that talk. . . but hey, if just one does, it's a win.

[Cassie]

I retired at 58 and although everyone knew we worked for the state for the pension we lost one long time couple because they were jealous and still working despite being 8 years older. 8 years later they are still working. They got a inheritance when we retired and decided to buy a brand new 2700 sq ft house because that’s what you need at 66. We were downsizing and they were jealous. My husband was 53 and got laid off. He wanted to work but couldn’t find a job in his field so he collected his pension early with a penalty. Money is touchy subject.

[MrTurtle]

Besides my wife, I told my parents and that's about it.  I said my goal is to retire by age 35 and got a sarcastic "Good luck with that" from my mom.  I think she knows how much those comments motivate me.  I might actually win a Nobel Prize if somebody close to me dismissively told me I can't.

Other than that, I keep it a secret.  Maybe coworkers will see me riding my bike to work, bringing my own lunch, and knowing more than most about personal finance, and they'd put 2 and 2 together, and that's fine.  My plan, when I retire, is to tell people I'm becoming a financial planner.  Not lying because I am planning my own finances.

[Paul der Krake]

Besides my wife, I told my parents and that's about it.  I said my goal is to retire by age 35 and got a sarcastic "Good luck with that" from my mom.  I think she knows how much those comments motivate me.  I might actually win a Nobel Prize if somebody close to me dismissively told me I can't.

Dude, retiring at 35 is not exactly something to be proud of, it's at best average around here. I bet you can't even guess my routing and account numbers and send me a hundred bucks.

[Bloop Bloop]

I talk real estate and stocks with my friends, but never FIRE. All of my friends pretty much spend 100% of what they make. Things are now starting to change a little bit at age 40. Some of my friends are trying to figure out their finances. I'm guessing that we might be able to start talking about it around age 45 after they have some positive gains for a few years.

I don't think I could be friends with people who spend 100% of what they make, unless they were low-income earners, or had some special reason to be spending so lavishly (e.g. medicare expenses or disability expenses or something). Otherwise, anyone middle-class or over who spends that much just has very different values from me (like, what is there in life, other than medical emergencies and stuff, to actually spend so much on? Faberge eggs?) and we would find it hard to find common ground.

OK, that seems a tad odd to me.  Why would that aspect of a person's life disqualify them from being your friend?  Are you afraid they would ask you for a loan or something?

Because we would have vastly different values. I believe in spending on only things that mean a lot to you and otherwise living a modest life.

[MrTurtle]

Dude, retiring at 35 is not exactly something to be proud of, it's at best average around here. I bet you can't even guess my routing and account numbers and send me a hundred bucks.
[/quote]

I'm not competing with the FIRE community on who can retire the fastest.  I was 28 at the time and, in my situation, 35 was a reasonable goal for me.  I've since revised the goal to "have enough money that I could" retire by 35 because I have a job that I actually like now. 

[okits]

Besides my wife, I told my parents and that's about it.  I said my goal is to retire by age 35 and got a sarcastic "Good luck with that" from my mom.  I think she knows how much those comments motivate me.  I might actually win a Nobel Prize if somebody close to me dismissively told me I can't.

Dude, retiring at 35 is not exactly something to be proud of, it's at best average around here. I bet you can't even guess my routing and account numbers and send me a hundred bucks.

I'm not competing with the FIRE community on who can retire the fastest.  I was 28 at the time and, in my situation, 35 was a reasonable goal for me.  I've since revised the goal to "have enough money that I could" retire by 35 because I have a job that I actually like now. 

@Paul der Krake , I appreciated your comment, even if it didn't serve as further motivation for MrTurtle. 😆

[Chris Pascale]

Most friends know that I plan to leave my current job after 20 years, but also that I'll probably still work in some capacity through my 60's.

I struggle to look past working that long because I feel like a lot of older workers clog up the system for ambitious young people who can do more.

[billy]

Evangelists are annoying, doesn't matter what they preach. Especially the ones who recently discovered The One True Way and can't wait to tell everyone about it. Whether it's Jesus, Linux, essential oils, or FIRE. Nobody cares.

Ya I learned that the hard way, most people don't believe or care about FI at work. FWIW MX Linux has been working out pretty good for me :)

[ixtap]

Everyone knew when I was back in NY. Friends, coworkers, acquaintances. I also made friends through the fire community. Now I mostly tell people that I'm taking a sabbatical, if they ask what I do for work. Even then, the conversation focuses more on my old jobs than my time off.

Typical conversation:
-What do you do?
-I am president of organization A, education officer of organization B and committee member of organization C.
-But don't you get a paycheck for anything?!

[big_owl]

I did at first but eventually came around to realize that I just sounded like an entitled jackass bragging about money so I stopped.  Now I don't bring it up unless somebody asks.

[bacchi]

I've mentioned it to the parents but it never clicked so now I'm on a really long sabbatical.

Mom: "So, bacchi, are you working right now?"
Me: "No, mom, I'm taking a break."

SO has told some friends. Most didn't really give ER a thought but realized that they could do it if they wanted (.gov pensions, RSUs/IPOs, etc.)

[4tify]

A good friend I've shared my story with has a son who's 26 and who called me yesterday to find out how I've reached FI. He's smart and a good saver already, but has no idea about investing. I gave him a ton of info and he's off to the races.

Felt really good to help a young man out and get him going on this journey.

[Just Joe]

For a long time we were "poor" among our relatives. We liked it better that way. Nobody really knew anything about our finances. Then we finally replaced the very aged family car with something shinier. It was used but very shiny. A few years after that we bought a more comfortable home on a larger patch of dirt. Not fancy just bigger. A great place to WFH and shelter during this pandemic.

This worked against us b/c now we clearly weren't just getting by like most of the rest. We were pulling ahead. Things are chillier with a few of them. Add on a double scoop of goodness from the nation's current partisan politics. Several are quite outspoken fans of our president and have doubled down on some real gold plated rumor grade stuff. Meanwhile DW and I quietly take a more moderate position on everything. From their position we are way to the left of them.

We try to overlook all that and avoid engaging them on topics like politics. They have us figured out b/c we aren't outspoken supporters of their leader or critics of the left. We mourn the loss of our family to the Trump cult. DW and I try to be as welcoming to everyone regardless of their religion, politics, gender or sexual orientation. Wish I could say the same of everyone.

Meanwhile, with the financial future of our siblings pretty much etched in stone, I wish there was a way to reach the youngest members of the family. Several of them have had impulse control and delayed gratification problems that will shape their lives too. Nobody is seeking continued education of any sort b/c it is hard. No wonder life is tough. Their earning potential is what - $10-12 an hour? Treading water financially wears a person out. There are at least two that seem to be drowning. One pair that can't seek a divorce b/c neither can afford to live alone. We've offered to talk about school and even finances. Show them the path we took without revealing our numbers of course. Nope.

Among our friends - we have a few we can speak pretty frankly with. Most we avoid the topic of finances like we avoid politics or religion. We share our hobbies and that is about it. We have a few friends that have struggled so much during this pandemic that they are a few hundred dollars from destitution. DW helped a couple with small cash gifts. Again, seek more skills, play the long game. And they won't. We keep our lifestyle under wraps. We don't talk about our things or income. Its a shame b/c they are fun to be around but can't afford to take care of those things that need it.

I wish we had more friends here with similar incomes. Each time we have pulled ahead of friends those people have become more distant than before. Church and politics have also divided people here which is a shame. We're not going to turn our backs on any of our LGBTQ friends b/c of politics or religion. We choose to be welcoming and I guess that is discouraged by some.

[2sk22]

...
Among our friends - we have a few we can speak pretty frankly with. Most we avoid the topic of finances like we avoid politics or religion. We share our hobbies and that is about it. We have a few friends that have struggled so much during this pandemic that they are a few hundred dollars from destitution. DW helped a couple with small cash gifts. Again, seek more skills, play the long game. And they won't. We keep our lifestyle under wraps. We don't talk about our things or income. Its a shame b/c they are fun to be around but can't afford to take care of those things that need it.
...

It must be lonely to not have people you can talk to about this. I was reflecting that the situation is not much different for me even here in a suburb of New York City. I just don't talk much about money with family members at all except one cousin. As for friends, I'm so far removed from them financially that they would resent any advice. Thank goodness for the anonymity of this forum!

[Bloop Bloop]

...
Among our friends - we have a few we can speak pretty frankly with. Most we avoid the topic of finances like we avoid politics or religion. We share our hobbies and that is about it. We have a few friends that have struggled so much during this pandemic that they are a few hundred dollars from destitution. DW helped a couple with small cash gifts. Again, seek more skills, play the long game. And they won't. We keep our lifestyle under wraps. We don't talk about our things or income. Its a shame b/c they are fun to be around but can't afford to take care of those things that need it.
...

It must be lonely to not have people you can talk to about this. I was reflecting that the situation is not much different for me even here in a suburb of New York City. I just don't talk much about money with family members at all except one cousin. As for friends, I'm so far removed from them financially that they would resent any advice. Thank goodness for the anonymity of this forum!

Most of my friends/relatives are in a similar financial boat as me, except instead of retiring early they might have other goals (eg to cut work down to part-time, to do volunteering, to pass on a bigger endowment to their children, etc, or perhaps they just really like work)

I feel like I am the only one here whose friends see eye-to-eye in most ways

[2sk22]

The more I think about it, many things have to align to have a frank money discussion with another person:

• You roughly need to have the same level of wealth
• You need to have the same level of visible wealth.
• The trajectories have to be similar. Say there are two people worth a million. But suppose one person is on the upswing while the other person is losing money, this may cause problems.
• The people have to be in a non-competitive relationship with each other
• One person should not be dependent on the other person.

Obviously you can come up with counter examples to any of these points but I think there is some validity to these criteria.

[Bloop Bloop]

The more I think about it, many things have to align to have a frank money discussion with another person:

• You roughly need to have the same level of wealth
• You need to have the same level of visible wealth.
• The trajectories have to be similar. Say there are two people worth a million. But suppose one person is on the upswing while the other person is losing money, this may cause problems.
• The people have to be in a non-competitive relationship with each other
• One person should not be dependent on the other person.

Obviously you can come up with counter examples to any of these points but I think there is some validity to these criteria.

I would say you only have to be on the same trajectory. E.g. a young professional in her 30s would not feel uncomfortable discussing finances with an established professional in her 40s even though the latter has a 10 year, multi-million advantage over the former, as long as their trajectories were roughly the same.

Whereas someone in his 30s who has the same level of wealth/visible wealth as someone in his 50s might not be able to see eye-to-eye since the latter took his whole life to get to where the former got to very quickly.

I would also say that 'visible' wealth isn't that important (things like shoes, watches, cars are small beer in the grand scheme of things - and shares and investment property aren't usually visible), but visible 'status' (education/job), to the extent that it can be gleaned, is important.

So my version of your criteria would be:
- Roughly same level of visible status
- Similar life trajectories/life paths
- No dependency or direct competition
Your last point is an interesting one. In my field there is sometimes competition because professional firms will advertise their services. However once you get to a certain level of seniority, it's considered a bit rude to advertise, or to even compete (in any way, including by price competition) with other professionals. That code of honour helps all contestants, I think, and leads to an easier playing field.

[Assetup]

For a long time we were "poor" among our relatives. We liked it better that way. Nobody really knew anything about our finances. Then we finally replaced the very aged family car with something shinier. It was used but very shiny. A few years after that we bought a more comfortable home on a larger patch of dirt. Not fancy just bigger. A great place to WFH and shelter during this pandemic.

This worked against us b/c now we clearly weren't just getting by like most of the rest. We were pulling ahead. Things are chillier with a few of them. Add on a double scoop of goodness from the nation's current partisan politics. Several are quite outspoken fans of our president and have doubled down on some real gold plated rumor grade stuff. Meanwhile DW and I quietly take a more moderate position on everything. From their position we are way to the left of them.

We try to overlook all that and avoid engaging them on topics like politics. They have us figured out b/c we aren't outspoken supporters of their leader or critics of the left. We mourn the loss of our family to the Trump cult. DW and I try to be as welcoming to everyone regardless of their religion, politics, gender or sexual orientation. Wish I could say the same of everyone.

Meanwhile, with the financial future of our siblings pretty much etched in stone, I wish there was a way to reach the youngest members of the family. Several of them have had impulse control and delayed gratification problems that will shape their lives too. Nobody is seeking continued education of any sort b/c it is hard. No wonder life is tough. Their earning potential is what - $10-12 an hour? Treading water financially wears a person out. There are at least two that seem to be drowning. One pair that can't seek a divorce b/c neither can afford to live alone. We've offered to talk about school and even finances. Show them the path we took without revealing our numbers of course. Nope.

Among our friends - we have a few we can speak pretty frankly with. Most we avoid the topic of finances like we avoid politics or religion. We share our hobbies and that is about it. We have a few friends that have struggled so much during this pandemic that they are a few hundred dollars from destitution. DW helped a couple with small cash gifts. Again, seek more skills, play the long game. And they won't. We keep our lifestyle under wraps. We don't talk about our things or income. Its a shame b/c they are fun to be around but can't afford to take care of those things that need it.

I wish we had more friends here with similar incomes. Each time we have pulled ahead of friends those people have become more distant than before. Church and politics have also divided people here which is a shame. We're not going to turn our backs on any of our LGBTQ friends b/c of politics or religion. We choose to be welcoming and I guess that is discouraged by some.

Wow Joe our situation is very similar to yours with maybe the small exception of the new house.  We have noticed that we tend to make and keep friends longer if they actually make/spend about the same amount we spend in a year (way less than our income). We haven't ran into anyone with a high savings rate that we get along with....maybe it's because our workplaces don't have any of them and there aren't many natural places to bump into like minded people with a decent savings rate.

We have to be very careful about talking finances because it's very easy to want to help other people we consider friends and family when they don't really want our brand of help.  I guess it's easy to come across like "oh that's your issue? That's an easy fix just stop spending money on x and y (insert stupid expense)" when they really want to hear "Yeah we struggle with that as well but you'll get through it.  Boy do I love my boat I just hate paying so much every month".

Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk

[Metalcat]

The more I think about it, many things have to align to have a frank money discussion with another person:

• You roughly need to have the same level of wealth
• You need to have the same level of visible wealth.
• The trajectories have to be similar. Say there are two people worth a million. But suppose one person is on the upswing while the other person is losing money, this may cause problems.
• The people have to be in a non-competitive relationship with each other
• One person should not be dependent on the other person.

Obviously you can come up with counter examples to any of these points but I think there is some validity to these criteria.

I'm sorry, but *why* are these prerequisites for frank money discussions.

Literally the *only* prerequisite is that both people want to have a frank discussion about money and neither are judgemental or reactive about other people's personal finances or opinions about personal finance.

Maybe this is rare culturally where you are, but I personally have no problem finding people from all walks of life with whom I can talk frankly about personal finance.

Just this week I've had very open and deeply vulnerable money conversations with a many multi millionaire who makes about 600K/yr, and a chronically underemployed PhD who has never made more than 40K/year and that was a looooong time ago.

Why would someone have to be just like me financially in order to be able to talk to me about money??

[LWYRUP]

Most of my friends/relatives are in a similar financial boat as me, except instead of retiring early they might have other goals (eg to cut work down to part-time, to do volunteering, to pass on a bigger endowment to their children, etc, or perhaps they just really like work)

I feel like I am the only one here whose friends see eye-to-eye in most ways`

Most of the people I know are not trying to retire early, but they do make high incomes and save a lot.  Things like "max out your retirement account" (they are referring to putting the employee max, $19k, into a 401(k), likely with an employer contribution on top of that, and many are dual income so double that), fund a 529 (to at least full pay for state college) and don't do a cash-out refi on your mortgage are pretty common wisdom in UMC circles where I live. 

Many of these folks start to feel like they are ready to "finish up" in their late 50s or early 60s.  Some do.  More of them just decide to buy a fancy car and a beach house and pay for their kid's dental school, then they retire at normal age.  But they are paying for those things easily and voluntarily.

Trying to save harder than that to retire before kids are out of college, etc. would not be normal among these types of people.  But that doesn't mean they are anywhere close to paycheck to paycheck or can't manage their money.  Just a different set of expectations about their life path. 

[LinneaH]

I usually keep pretty quiet in real life, don't have many friends with similar interests. Have told some I plan to stop working for money at 55 (am 48 now), but no details. They are mostly confused 😁.
People who know about my approximate salary (colleagues) don't know much about how I live my private life.
Friends don't know about my salary, they may see I am somewhat careful with my spending, but it isn't obvious. So this means it is not at all obvious to friends how much I save.
My parents, especially my dad who is very careful with money, have worried about me. None of them were high salary, but they kept their spending low, so life was good. Now they see I spend more than they did (I'm in a HCOL area) and wonder if I'm in way over my head. I have had to tell them my salary and more or less everything about how I spend and save for them to feel calmed. I had preferred not to tell all, but I don't want them to worry, and I know they are this way because they care

[Arbitrage]

We told our close friends a couple of years ago after we were pretty secure that this was the path we wanted to take, and were met with shock, sadness, and a bit of derision.  Not so much over the desire to RE - though that does invite the derisive comments - but the fact that we want to move (will move us away from them).  There are reasons beyond FIRE that we want to move, but moving away from them will be the most difficult part of the whole process. 

As a result, we don't talk much about it.  None of them are particularly interested in the financial aspects of it.  I imagine that once we have a firm timeline, we'll bring it up again, and they'll be upset again.

[Bloop Bloop]

The more I think about it, many things have to align to have a frank money discussion with another person:

• You roughly need to have the same level of wealth
• You need to have the same level of visible wealth.
• The trajectories have to be similar. Say there are two people worth a million. But suppose one person is on the upswing while the other person is losing money, this may cause problems.
• The people have to be in a non-competitive relationship with each other
• One person should not be dependent on the other person.

Obviously you can come up with counter examples to any of these points but I think there is some validity to these criteria.

I'm sorry, but *why* are these prerequisites for frank money discussions.

Literally the *only* prerequisite is that both people want to have a frank discussion about money and neither are judgemental or reactive about other people's personal finances or opinions about personal finance.

Maybe this is rare culturally where you are, but I personally have no problem finding people from all walks of life with whom I can talk frankly about personal finance.

Just this week I've had very open and deeply vulnerable money conversations with a many multi millionaire who makes about 600K/yr, and a chronically underemployed PhD who has never made more than 40K/year and that was a looooong time ago.

Why would someone have to be just like me financially in order to be able to talk to me about money??

I find that if people have very disparate life experiences it can be pretty hard to be candid.

E.g. if you are earning $250k a year and your main goal is to retire by 45 and you are exploring various investments to get there, and your PhD student earning $35k a year has a main goal of not being hungry, what are you guys gonna talk candidly about? You have nothing financially in common. If you were to candidly say that your main financial problem is figuring out how to take advantage of various retirement accounts for tax savings, and that you barely ever have to worry about the nuts and bolts of daily financial life, how is that going to benefit the poor PhD student? You'd have to be diplomatic about a lot of things and that tends to inhibit candour.

Taking the situation to the extreme, you wouldn't expect a millionaire to be able to have a candid and equal discussion about money with a pauper.

[Metalcat]

The more I think about it, many things have to align to have a frank money discussion with another person:

• You roughly need to have the same level of wealth
• You need to have the same level of visible wealth.
• The trajectories have to be similar. Say there are two people worth a million. But suppose one person is on the upswing while the other person is losing money, this may cause problems.
• The people have to be in a non-competitive relationship with each other
• One person should not be dependent on the other person.

Obviously you can come up with counter examples to any of these points but I think there is some validity to these criteria.

I'm sorry, but *why* are these prerequisites for frank money discussions.

Literally the *only* prerequisite is that both people want to have a frank discussion about money and neither are judgemental or reactive about other people's personal finances or opinions about personal finance.

Maybe this is rare culturally where you are, but I personally have no problem finding people from all walks of life with whom I can talk frankly about personal finance.

Just this week I've had very open and deeply vulnerable money conversations with a many multi millionaire who makes about 600K/yr, and a chronically underemployed PhD who has never made more than 40K/year and that was a looooong time ago.

Why would someone have to be just like me financially in order to be able to talk to me about money??

I find that if people have very disparate life experiences it can be pretty hard to be candid.

E.g. if you are earning $250k a year and your main goal is to retire by 45 and you are exploring various investments to get there, and your PhD student earning $35k a year has a main goal of not being hungry, what are you guys gonna talk candidly about? You have nothing financially in common. If you were to candidly say that your main financial problem is figuring out how to take advantage of various retirement accounts for tax savings, and that you barely ever have to worry about the nuts and bolts of daily financial life, how is that going to benefit the poor PhD student? You'd have to be diplomatic about a lot of things and that tends to inhibit candour.

Taking the situation to the extreme, you wouldn't expect a millionaire to be able to have a candid and equal discussion about money with a pauper.

This is not at all my experience, not even a little bit.

You don't have to share the same life experience with someone in order to take a keen interest in what their life is like and what's important to them. Personal finance is just an aspect of someone's priorities.

Oh, and I've been a pauper talking to millionaires quite a lot about money. Not awkward unless the millionaire was awkward.

[Bloop Bloop]

I think you are moving the goalposts a bit. The original post that we both quoted referred to "The more I think about it, many things have to align to have a frank money discussion with another person."

So you're now referring to "taking a keen interest in what their life is like and what's important to them." But that's a much larger set than just a "frank money discussion".

You say that "Personal finance is just an aspect of someone's priorities" and I would agree wholeheartedly, but when the topic of the quote is "frank money discussion" and the topic of the thread is "sharing your FIRE journey", then I think that personal finance is the predominant aspect of the thing in question.

[Metalcat]

I think you are moving the goalposts a bit. The original post that we both quoted referred to "The more I think about it, many things have to align to have a frank money discussion with another person."

So you're now referring to "taking a keen interest in what their life is like and what's important to them." But that's a much larger set than just a "frank money discussion".

You say that "Personal finance is just an aspect of someone's priorities" and I would agree wholeheartedly, but when the topic of the quote is "frank money discussion" and the topic of the thread is "sharing your FIRE journey", then I think that personal finance is the predominant aspect of the thing in question.

What???
I'm not moving goal posts, I'm just lumping personal finance in with personal priorities and saying that if I make the person comfortable enough to open up about their personal priorities, then they're naturally open to discussing personal finance.

I talk about personal finance with virtually everyone. My experience is that as long as people really genuinely don't feel at all judged, they actually really want to talk about their finances.

Whether good or bad, it's a huge emotional weight for most people, and it's *because* those things can be uncomfortable that those are the things people really, really want to be able to talk about. 

Also, different degrees of wealth may be different realities, but stress, insecurity, and pride about money are pretty universal human experiences. So when the customer service industry worker beams with pride that he's saved $5000 or the 8 figure net worth person talks about always being the poor one of their circle, the emotions behind those realities are eminently, humanly relatable.

The challenge is getting people to show you those things.

[ender]

I mostly share the Shockingly Simple Math post from the good ole days of MMM's blog and talk about the importance of saving money with random folks.

But I do have quite a few friends who are incredibly frugal and also on the FIRE journey themselves.

[FIRE 20/20]

Literally the *only* prerequisite is that both people want to have a frank discussion about money and neither are judgemental or reactive about other people's personal finances or opinions about personal finance.

This is close to my experience, except that in my case I've found that most people I've met do have some kind of insecurity or jealousy associated with money.  In most cases those feelings are minimal to moderate, but most of the time they're there.  I'm very open about my FIRE journey, and I'd say that generally speaking younger people are interested in discussing FIRE and finances.  I've helped guide a number of younger co-workers towards FIRE resources although in each case they approached me after finding out about my plans so there is some self-selection going on.  With people I'm closer to in age and income I've generally encountered more insecurity, but only a moderate amount.  In those cases I think pre-existing feelings of falling behind either in income or in savings come to the forefront when confronted face to face with someone who has done something they didn't do.  The worst in my experience has been the response from people who are older (I FIREd at 42) but who generally earn similar to or more than I did when I quit.  In those cases I encountered what appeared to be jealousy when they heard I was FIREing.  I worked with a lot of former military officers who were pulling in a significant military pension plus a very substantial contractor income.  They "couldn't" retire at 55 or 60 with all of that money coming in - how could a "kid" just retire at 42? 
In my experience, there are certain topics like physical attractiveness, success, and money just bring up normal human emotions borne of a comparing mindset.  In some cases these feelings might arise when seeing someone else's house or car is bigger, but in the case of FIRE it's even larger because the sums required to "obtain" FIRE are much higher than most houses or cars. 
People early on the path can envision achieving FIRE even if they see that they still have work to do and might not get there.  As they get older they may start to feel Alea iacta est (The die has been cast), and encountering someone who has something they can't or won't achieve I think can naturally result in a variety of negative emotions borne of a comparing mind which can make it hard to share in a fruitful dialog. 

[ixtap]

If you only have candid conversations with people you are already on the same page with, you aren't going to learn much in this life.

[Metalcat]

Literally the *only* prerequisite is that both people want to have a frank discussion about money and neither are judgemental or reactive about other people's personal finances or opinions about personal finance.

This is close to my experience, except that in my case I've found that most people I've met do have some kind of insecurity or jealousy associated with money.  In most cases those feelings are minimal to moderate, but most of the time they're there.  I'm very open about my FIRE journey, and I'd say that generally speaking younger people are interested in discussing FIRE and finances.  I've helped guide a number of younger co-workers towards FIRE resources although in each case they approached me after finding out about my plans so there is some self-selection going on.  With people I'm closer to in age and income I've generally encountered more insecurity, but only a moderate amount.  In those cases I think pre-existing feelings of falling behind either in income or in savings come to the forefront when confronted face to face with someone who has done something they didn't do.  The worst in my experience has been the response from people who are older (I FIREd at 42) but who generally earn similar to or more than I did when I quit.  In those cases I encountered what appeared to be jealousy when they heard I was FIREing.  I worked with a lot of former military officers who were pulling in a significant military pension plus a very substantial contractor income.  They "couldn't" retire at 55 or 60 with all of that money coming in - how could a "kid" just retire at 42? 
In my experience, there are certain topics like physical attractiveness, success, and money just bring up normal human emotions borne of a comparing mindset.  In some cases these feelings might arise when seeing someone else's house or car is bigger, but in the case of FIRE it's even larger because the sums required to "obtain" FIRE are much higher than most houses or cars. 
People early on the path can envision achieving FIRE even if they see that they still have work to do and might not get there.  As they get older they may start to feel Alea iacta est (The die has been cast), and encountering someone who has something they can't or won't achieve I think can naturally result in a variety of negative emotions borne of a comparing mind which can make it hard to share in a fruitful dialog.

Very true. That initial statement was really an overstatement, which I even seemingly contradicted later on. Both sides don't need to be non judgemental in general, just the conversation needs to foster a mutually non-judgemental space.

A lot of my conversations about personal finance do have to do with feelings of insecurity, but the difference is that those people aren't being insecurely reactive *to* me, they're being open about the insecure reactions they tend to have with others.