Poll

Do you pay for house cleaners?

Never
270 (67.2%)
Occasionally - to prepare for an event, or annual deep clean
25 (6.2%)
Monthly
23 (5.7%)
Every Two Weeks
64 (15.9%)
Weekly
20 (5%)

Total Members Voted: 401

Author Topic: Do you pay for house cleaners?  (Read 19996 times)

mm1970

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #250 on: June 05, 2019, 10:38:57 AM »
Quote
The disconnect is that you're not combining tasks.  No need for a cleaner if you have a babysitter and a child.  :P

Oh that brings back memories of my second kid...who would literally eat anything he found while crawling around on the floor.  He loved to make a run for under his brother's chair.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #251 on: June 05, 2019, 10:39:14 AM »
Also, Bob has a job that pays 210k per year that somehow is not salaried and he can work extra hours at $100 hour???  Also, Bob has this super high paying job in an area where house cleaners are only $15 an hour (hint, they aren't $15 an hour anywhere in the US according to this thread).  Also, the $100 an hour is pre-tax the payment to the house cleaner is post tax, a substantial portion of Bob's income is in a very high tax bracket. Also, the problem with recurring expenses like this is due to behavior they often recur till death. Ignoring the current expense, the added expense in retirement means substantially more money must be saved to maintain that level of spending post-retirement.

I have argued in this thread that house cleaners are not worth it solely based on math.  What it comes down to for most people is that time spent cleaning your own house takes more than that amount of time off of the amount of time you will spend working due to the taxes, opportunity cost, and increased spending in retirement. Philosophical reasons aside, this is reason enough for most mustachians to clean their own houses.

I said quite openly that if your income is about the same as or only a bit more than what a housecleaner costs, there's not much point to hiring someone else to do it. My counter-example is intended to rebut those in this thread who say hiring a housecleaner can never be mustachian. If your point is that for most people the utility trade-off is problematic, then I agree completely. But there are plenty of high-income earners on this thread for whom the comparison I used is apt.

Also, as I've now said multiple times, many of us are not salaried. Many of us are contractors or sole traders. I hav a job where I charge out an hourly rate and I basically work as many (or as few) hours as I want. So I can always work extra hours, except I don't because it would lead to massive burn-out on my part.

You said:

"Also, the problem with recurring expenses like this is due to behavior they often recur till death. Ignoring the current expense, the added expense in retirement means substantially more money must be saved to maintain that level of spending post-retirement."

This does not follow from my position. If you are retired you have a lot more time on your hands and so the cost-utility equation changes significantly. More to the point, you can no longer bill at $xxx/hour since you're retired, so the opportunity cost of your weekday time diminishes - particularly as, absent the stress of work, you might then enjoy house-cleaning. I don't plan to use a house-cleaner once I'm retired. I figure I will have about 45 hours per week of extra time, during which I can easily find 4 hours per week to do the housecleaning myself, and I'd probably enjoy it, too.

afox

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #252 on: June 05, 2019, 10:47:27 AM »
Well Bloop, I have to agree with you. If you earn $100 an hour and you have unlimited work and you pay $15 an hour for house cleaning and upon retirement you will change your ways and clean your own house then house cleaning certainly is the best option for you!  Glad we cleared that up. And for the rest of us on planet earth, the alternative is pretty darn good too!

partgypsy

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #253 on: June 05, 2019, 11:07:39 AM »
I picked never, but I want to get to rarely or occasionally. I would love to have someone do a deep clean of my house, including all the floors, the wood baseboards and doors, and outside of windows. Most cleaners want to be on weekly or biweekly contract though.

I also want to hire out someone to do big jobs for yard, including mowing the very small bits of yard I have (hell strip). 

Cassie

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #254 on: June 05, 2019, 12:22:18 PM »
There are cleaners that will do deep cleaning but itís exactly because itís time consuming. I have always done my own deep cleaning because I am fussy and only do it once a year.  I see the value for 2 working people if they can afford it because time is more important.  Now that I no longer work I do it myself because I have the time.

Larsg

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #255 on: June 05, 2019, 12:59:55 PM »
Can't stand them in my house ever. We clean our own houses always. We put the kids to work on it too...this is how they help contribute to the family and earn their keep period. We can afford it but no, we do not. We also will not pay people to mow our lawns and landscape, etc. This  such an incredible waste of money and driver of pollution in the ground water if one drop of chemicals touch the ground. We mow the grass tall which keeps the weeds to a minimum, we plant native, and let the land do be what it was meant to be. We relocate teeny tiny baby trees by shovel and hand to locations where they will thrive.

afox

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #256 on: June 05, 2019, 03:26:28 PM »

Having cleaners in my house makes me uncomfortable too. The last time I tried a cleaner it was a really creepy experience. I was working from home in my downstairs and the cleaner was working on a bathroom upstairs for over 2 hours. The house would get uncomfortably silent for long periods of time, obviously no cleaning was happening but I dont really know what she was doing, I assume playing on her phone. After 2 hours or so I had to go check on her and basically said "its okay you only did one bathroom in 2 hours, we'll get the rest next time", yeah right. I found the scheduling of the cleaners to be a PITA too and I have to instruct them on what I want cleaned every time they come. I have to put away all my money and valuables (dont want to leave a checkbook or soemthing out to tempt anyone to steal). NFW am I  giving a cleaner the key/code to my house or allowing them to clean while im not home.

All in all, I found the experience to be a minor hassle, awkward, and extremely expensive. Its not like the time outlay for cleaning yourself is 120 minutes and hiring it out is 0 minutes, its more like 30 minutes for hiring it out vs. 1.5 hrs for DIY.  As I get older and hire out more and more work/projects I often find that the shopping for services/negotiating, hiring, managing/instructing, etc is a lot of work. As someone thats used to DIYing just about everything I often find that its just easier to do it myself, this is especially true for house cleaning which can be done anytime and doesnt require special tools or experience. Of course I have to hire out things like roofing and other specialized trade work.

Cassie

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #257 on: June 05, 2019, 04:10:13 PM »
I always went with a company that was bonded and insured.   Professional cleaners are fast because they get fired if not fast.  The ones I used had a code for the customerís keys so if stolen no one would know what house it went to.

Goldielocks

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #258 on: June 05, 2019, 04:57:01 PM »
For people like me who are self-employed and have a steady source of work, the opportunity cost is literally measured in dollars.
...Remember the concept of marginal utility. If Bob earns $100 an hour and house cleaning costs $15 an hour, the difference in marginal utility between $85 and $100 (for that hour) is likely to be less than the negative difference in utility between one hour's house-cleaning and one hour's leisure time.

...
  This is quite rare, for most people...  highly rare.  Your self-employed business that generates a high income is a great example when it makes sense to hire cleaners, and snow shovelers, and gardeners... you do it for your office, and the nearly same arguement holds for your home, too.   Hire others so that you can work and make more money.

NOTE Someone pointed out that $100/hr earned = $210k/yr... except that $100/hr is actually after tax... so at the average tax rate on high income here, you would need to earn $350k/yr...     which is quite rare.
Quote

Are you suggesting that "exchanging $$ for life enjoyment" (or more broadly, exchanging $$ for utility) is not MMM?
  Yes, most definitely.   MMM is about reducing all discretionary spending to achieve FIRE earlier, and to save the planet through our environmental / non consumerist choices.   Also about learning "bad ass" skills to know how to make your own life function independently of others.   A "can do" generalist for life, rather than a high wage slave specialist for 25 years.
Quote
Because this is what you do every time you buy something that is not strictly needed for survival. Like a coffee. Or anything other than the cheapest, name-brand bulk groceries and unappetising food.
  Yes.  We all make choices.  The coffee choice I make only costs me about $7 per month, though.   I buy a lot of bulk groceries and they are more appetising than the fast food or even restaurant meals available near me, and have far, far less additives than even the steakhouse.
Quote
"especially if the person is still working and does not wholly enjoy their work... in this case, they are exchanging years of extra work for short term "life enjoyment" provided by the outsourcing of services."
What if someone does not wholly enjoy their work, and does not wholly enjoy housecleaning, but 1 hour of work can pay for 10 hours of housecleaning? Are they not exchanging 1 hour of extra work for 10 hours' less displeasure later on?
  My point is that this scenario is exceptionally rare.  That someone would work 1 hour of overtime per week, get paid overtime, and use that to fund 10 hours of cleaning.  Here, that would require $400 after tax, (cleaners are $40/hr because living wages and contract businesses with overhead) which means earning $800/hr.
Quote
And you can substitute house cleaning for - butter churning, gardening, servicing a car, doing one's own plumbing - still no one has responded to that element of the argument.
  Absolutely.  Everything should be examined.
I have costed out making butter, by trying it and costing... butter is no, yougurt is a yes..I garden, am learning car servicing (it's going poorly!), I do some plumbing, minor electrical.`

I would much rather be FIRED and i realized how little consumer items I need, if it means staying FIRED.

Quote
...All things being equal, doing your own chores gives some element of control over your own environment and is a good habit, so there's extra utility gained from being self-sufficient. But I'd say the overall cost-benefit analysis depends on how much Bob earns, how cheap the house cleaning is, and how much Bob dislikes house-cleaning (if at all).

I suspect the real crux of a lot of people's aversion to paying for services is:
1. It can be a bad habit - pretty soon you're paying for chauffeur services or cooking, because you get lazy. I think this is a valid argument. But it is not intrinsic to the discussion - it only reflects a bad tendency of some people, much like lifestyle inflation doesn't always follow from a raise.
2. It relies on capitalist principles, and therefore detracts somewhat from MMM which is predicated on conscious frugality.
Nah, those two points are not even on my radar in this discussion.

It is about weighing the environment and FIRE  timeline and my personal desire for indepence (through skills / self/good habits).

Many, not all, people that hire cleaning now would choose to do so after Fire, so it is a double whammy.. you need more saved for higher FIRE expenses, as well as money to cover today's costs.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #259 on: June 05, 2019, 06:41:10 PM »
For people like me who are self-employed and have a steady source of work, the opportunity cost is literally measured in dollars.
...Remember the concept of marginal utility. If Bob earns $100 an hour and house cleaning costs $15 an hour, the difference in marginal utility between $85 and $100 (for that hour) is likely to be less than the negative difference in utility between one hour's house-cleaning and one hour's leisure time.

...
  This is quite rare, for most people...  highly rare.  Your self-employed business that generates a high income is a great example when it makes sense to hire cleaners, and snow shovelers, and gardeners... you do it for your office, and the nearly same arguement holds for your home, too.   Hire others so that you can work and make more money.

NOTE Someone pointed out that $100/hr earned = $210k/yr... except that $100/hr is actually after tax... so at the average tax rate on high income here, you would need to earn $350k/yr...     which is quite rare.
Quote

Are you suggesting that "exchanging $$ for life enjoyment" (or more broadly, exchanging $$ for utility) is not MMM?
  Yes, most definitely.   MMM is about reducing all discretionary spending to achieve FIRE earlier, and to save the planet through our environmental / non consumerist choices.   Also about learning "bad ass" skills to know how to make your own life function independently of others.   A "can do" generalist for life, rather than a high wage slave specialist for 25 years.
Quote
Because this is what you do every time you buy something that is not strictly needed for survival. Like a coffee. Or anything other than the cheapest, name-brand bulk groceries and unappetising food.
  Yes.  We all make choices.  The coffee choice I make only costs me about $7 per month, though.   I buy a lot of bulk groceries and they are more appetising than the fast food or even restaurant meals available near me, and have far, far less additives than even the steakhouse.
Quote
"especially if the person is still working and does not wholly enjoy their work... in this case, they are exchanging years of extra work for short term "life enjoyment" provided by the outsourcing of services."
What if someone does not wholly enjoy their work, and does not wholly enjoy housecleaning, but 1 hour of work can pay for 10 hours of housecleaning? Are they not exchanging 1 hour of extra work for 10 hours' less displeasure later on?
  My point is that this scenario is exceptionally rare.  That someone would work 1 hour of overtime per week, get paid overtime, and use that to fund 10 hours of cleaning.  Here, that would require $400 after tax, (cleaners are $40/hr because living wages and contract businesses with overhead) which means earning $800/hr.
Quote
And you can substitute house cleaning for - butter churning, gardening, servicing a car, doing one's own plumbing - still no one has responded to that element of the argument.
  Absolutely.  Everything should be examined.
I have costed out making butter, by trying it and costing... butter is no, yougurt is a yes..I garden, am learning car servicing (it's going poorly!), I do some plumbing, minor electrical.`

I would much rather be FIRED and i realized how little consumer items I need, if it means staying FIRED.

Quote
...All things being equal, doing your own chores gives some element of control over your own environment and is a good habit, so there's extra utility gained from being self-sufficient. But I'd say the overall cost-benefit analysis depends on how much Bob earns, how cheap the house cleaning is, and how much Bob dislikes house-cleaning (if at all).

I suspect the real crux of a lot of people's aversion to paying for services is:
1. It can be a bad habit - pretty soon you're paying for chauffeur services or cooking, because you get lazy. I think this is a valid argument. But it is not intrinsic to the discussion - it only reflects a bad tendency of some people, much like lifestyle inflation doesn't always follow from a raise.
2. It relies on capitalist principles, and therefore detracts somewhat from MMM which is predicated on conscious frugality.
Nah, those two points are not even on my radar in this discussion.

It is about weighing the environment and FIRE  timeline and my personal desire for indepence (through skills / self/good habits).

Many, not all, people that hire cleaning now would choose to do so after Fire, so it is a double whammy.. you need more saved for higher FIRE expenses, as well as money to cover today's costs.

Hi, thanks for your reply and for addressing the points I'd raised.

I think the crux of our disagreement is here, when you say:

"Yes, most definitely.   MMM is about reducing all discretionary spending to achieve FIRE earlier, and to save the planet through our environmental / non consumerist choices.   Also about learning "bad ass" skills to know how to make your own life function independently of others.   A "can do" generalist for life, rather than a high wage slave specialist for 25 years."

I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal. I agree that a lot of discretionary spending is driven by impulse, status, unexamined habit or other problematic things - and that should be examined and cut down - but I don't agree that MMM requires the sort of stoical frugality in all aspects of life that you and a few others have stated. You seem to be equating MMM with LeanFIRE, and while I don't try to equate MMM with FatFIRE, I don't believe MMM skews only to one side of the spectrum. For example, while I laud your consistency in also trying to service your own car etc, I think that many in this thread (including those who decry cleaning) would not be as handy.

Also, you say that a cleaner would cost $40/hr in your neck of the woods. That is way higher than the going rate for a cleaner here in Australia. There are no wage protections to cleaners because you don't hire them as your employees; you hire their services as contractors. Part of my cleaning bill is also deductible because a significant portion of my home is used as a home office.

Finally, you do most of your own chores for environmental reasons and for a desire fr skills/good habits (I might call this 'self sufficiency' in general). While most people would agree that these are great things to have, not everyone places the same value on these relative to time savings or effort savings. I am pretty sure, for example, I will FIRE earlier by outsourcing stuff than I would by becoming self-sufficient, and for me the main goal is to FIRE early.

afox

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #260 on: June 05, 2019, 11:59:27 PM »
I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal.

HA!  You think we are frugal for the sake of being frugal?!?!

I still dont think you get the second of the equation so here is a pop quiz that might get the gears turning for you Bloop Bloop:
Your friend Bob spends $200 per month on house cleaning. How much does Bob need to save before he retires to cover his house cleaning costs in retirement?

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #261 on: June 06, 2019, 12:23:47 AM »
I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal.

HA!  You think we are frugal for the sake of being frugal?!?!

I still dont think you get the second of the equation so here is a pop quiz that might get the gears turning for you Bloop Bloop:
Your friend Bob spends $200 per month on house cleaning. How much does Bob need to save before he retires to cover his house cleaning costs in retirement?

The poster I was responding to was making the explicit argument that we should be frugal for the sake of being frugal. You will see the words I quoted in my message.

So it doesn't matter what you say. I was responding to the other poster, not you.

And if you'd read the rest of my message, you would have seen that Bob would have a different utility/cost valuation in retirement, since in retirement he would have a lot more spare time.

If you are going to respond snappily to posts, at least read them beforehand.

Zamboni

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #262 on: June 06, 2019, 06:49:54 AM »
Yesterday I noticed another benefit of my regular maid service: I no longer need to take allergy medication.

I take it as needed and used to need it a lot. Pretty much every day, even in winter. I did notice that I would go into sneezing mode when dusting, and I would have massive attacks when delivering food to an elderly person who had a super messy house. I just figured the sneezing while dusting thing was normal. Now, after a few months of having someone else dust every 2 weeks . . . haven't need the allergy meds at all. So maybe I mostly had a dust allergy? I guess that's a thing. Mold too, maybe?

Always said I am allergic to cleaning and perhaps it is true!

GuitarStv

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #263 on: June 06, 2019, 07:03:01 AM »
Yesterday I noticed another benefit of my regular maid service: I no longer need to take allergy medication.

I take it as needed and used to need it a lot. Pretty much every day, even in winter. I did notice that I would go into sneezing mode when dusting, and I would have massive attacks when delivering food to an elderly person who had a super messy house. I just figured the sneezing while dusting thing was normal. Now, after a few months of having someone else dust every 2 weeks . . . haven't need the allergy meds at all. So maybe I mostly had a dust allergy? I guess that's a thing. Mold too, maybe?

Always said I am allergic to cleaning and perhaps it is true!

Use your vacuum's dusting attachment while dusting.  If you're just using a dry rag or a feather duster what you're really doing while dusting is kicking up all that stuff that was sitting there into the air to breathe.  Kicking the dust in the air kind of dusting is a good example of a total waste of time while cleaning . . . it'll make you feel happy when you do it, but the dust is still just going to settle down in your house somewhere and need to be cleaned again.

afox

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #264 on: June 06, 2019, 09:11:01 AM »
I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal.

HA!  You think we are frugal for the sake of being frugal?!?!

I still dont think you get the second of the equation so here is a pop quiz that might get the gears turning for you Bloop Bloop:
Your friend Bob spends $200 per month on house cleaning. How much does Bob need to save before he retires to cover his house cleaning costs in retirement?

The poster I was responding to was making the explicit argument that we should be frugal for the sake of being frugal. You will see the words I quoted in my message.

So it doesn't matter what you say. I was responding to the other poster, not you.

And if you'd read the rest of my message, you would have seen that Bob would have a different utility/cost valuation in retirement, since in retirement he would have a lot more spare time.

If you are going to respond snappily to posts, at least read them beforehand.

Okay, sorry to misinterpret. I dont think anyone is frugal for the sake of being frugal.

Hypothetically, lets pretend Bob is like most human beings and once accustomed to having his house cleaned for him he wont just start cleaning it himself when he retires. In our make believe pretend world how much would Bob need to save before he retires just to cover his $200 month house cleaning costs in retirement?
Here is a hint for your math problem: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/



Davnasty

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #265 on: June 06, 2019, 09:32:09 AM »
I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal.

HA!  You think we are frugal for the sake of being frugal?!?!

I still dont think you get the second of the equation so here is a pop quiz that might get the gears turning for you Bloop Bloop:
Your friend Bob spends $200 per month on house cleaning. How much does Bob need to save before he retires to cover his house cleaning costs in retirement?

The poster I was responding to was making the explicit argument that we should be frugal for the sake of being frugal. You will see the words I quoted in my message.

So it doesn't matter what you say. I was responding to the other poster, not you.

And if you'd read the rest of my message, you would have seen that Bob would have a different utility/cost valuation in retirement, since in retirement he would have a lot more spare time.

If you are going to respond snappily to posts, at least read them beforehand.

Am I missing something? You quoted Goldielocks as saying:

"Yes, most definitely.   MMM is about reducing all discretionary spending to achieve FIRE earlier, and to save the planet through our environmental / non consumerist choices.   Also about learning "bad ass" skills to know how to make your own life function independently of others.   A "can do" generalist for life, rather than a high wage slave specialist for 25 years."

This is not frugality for the sake of it, it's frugality for the sake of retiring and saving the planet.

Also, it would make back and forth conversations easier if you used the quote function. You can still snip out the parts you want to reference to avoid giant quotes, but knowing who you're quoting makes it easier to track the conversation.

Cassie

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #266 on: June 06, 2019, 10:28:42 AM »
A fox, you are assuming Bob will not clean his house in retirement. I had cleaners while working and now clean myself. I have the time something I was short on before. I would rather direct that money somewhere else.

Imma

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #267 on: June 06, 2019, 10:36:36 AM »
I do think it's really funny that somehow many people on MMM consider having a house cleaner to be morally wrong. Why is having a house cleaner much more controversial than other spendypants habits?

For example, I would bet that most people on this forum own at least one vehicle. I am absolutely sure that most of them cost way more than the Ä50/month I paid my cleaner (Ä12,50 per hour which is 135% of minimum wage, this seems to be the going rate) why isn't driving morally wrong? Of course we recommend people to bike to the grocery store or work but very few people on this forum will defend the position that owning a car in itself is morally wrong. Is it because MMM has a car (several, I believe) but not a cleaner?

I also don't believe that employing a person who belongs to a more vulnerable group of people is necessarily a bad thing. The cleaner I used to employ has mental health issues that prevent her from having a regular job. Being a freelance cleaner allows her to set her own schedule and work on her own terms. This sounds pretty empowering to me. If no one hires these people they're going to stay vulnerable and poor forever.

I have said this before, in this thread and others, but the MMM forum is generally not a friendly place for people with certain disabilities. The average forum member seems to think that if you just eat rice and beans and ride a bike you're never going to get any health issues. I would recommend everyone, including those who currently wouldn't dream of hiring domestic help, to make sure there's room in the budget for hired help. At a certain point in life, many people will need it, believe it or not. Especially all those super active athletes who are going to need knee and hip replacements when they're older, they're definitely going to need (temporary) help.

Cassie

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #268 on: June 06, 2019, 10:41:59 AM »
Having spent my career working with people with disabilities we are all just one accident or illness away from one. 

afox

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #269 on: June 06, 2019, 11:02:37 AM »
A fox, you are assuming Bob will not clean his house in retirement. I had cleaners while working and now clean myself. I have the time something I was short on before. I would rather direct that money somewhere else.

Can we agree that one who pays to have house cleaned while working will be less likely to do their own cleaning in retirement than one who does their own cleaning while working?

afox

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #270 on: June 06, 2019, 11:06:42 AM »
I do think it's really funny that somehow many people on MMM consider having a house cleaner to be morally wrong. Why is having a house cleaner much more controversial than other spendypants habits?

Who said it was morally wrong? I dont think its morally wrong, it just does'nt make sense financially to me. And as evidence that its affordable you and others keep pointing to the current costs while ignoring the much more significant cost of increasing your expenses while in retirement/disability. My point is that your math for justifying your cleaning is wrong.

GuitarStv

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #271 on: June 06, 2019, 11:11:21 AM »
I do think it's really funny that somehow many people on MMM consider having a house cleaner to be morally wrong. Why is having a house cleaner much more controversial than other spendypants habits?

For example, I would bet that most people on this forum own at least one vehicle. I am absolutely sure that most of them cost way more than the Ä50/month I paid my cleaner (Ä12,50 per hour which is 135% of minimum wage, this seems to be the going rate) why isn't driving morally wrong?

A reasonable argument can be made that owning and operating a car for pleasure or out of laziness is morally wrong.  I have a car, and use it several times a week . . . and wouldn't say that this action is Mustachian, good for the environment, or optimal for my early retirement.  It's definitely an area I have tried to improve on and hope to continue to do so in the future.  I certainly wouldn't say that I'm too lazy to bike everywhere, therefore owning a car is a necessity.



Of course we recommend people to bike to the grocery store or work but very few people on this forum will defend the position that owning a car in itself is morally wrong. Is it because MMM has a car (several, I believe) but not a cleaner?

Owning and operating a vehicle is probably morally wrong when you really break it down.  Emissions from vehicles are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths each year.  Every time you drive you're saying that your laziness is more important than those lives.  (Not to mention environmental impacts.)

But beside that point, we weren't discussing owning a car . . . but getting a house cleaner in this thread.



I also don't believe that employing a person who belongs to a more vulnerable group of people is necessarily a bad thing. The cleaner I used to employ has mental health issues that prevent her from having a regular job. Being a freelance cleaner allows her to set her own schedule and work on her own terms. This sounds pretty empowering to me. If no one hires these people they're going to stay vulnerable and poor forever.

Why don't you consider cleaning a 'regular job'?  I certainly considered it a regular job when I was working as a janitor in high school.  Getting and holding a job as a cleaner wasn't really any easier or more empowering than any other job that I had.  (Factory work, lumber yard, pest control technician, home depot order picker, etc.)



I have said this before, in this thread and others, but the MMM forum is generally not a friendly place for people with certain disabilities. The average forum member seems to think that if you just eat rice and beans and ride a bike you're never going to get any health issues. I would recommend everyone, including those who currently wouldn't dream of hiring domestic help, to make sure there's room in the budget for hired help. At a certain point in life, many people will need it, believe it or not. Especially all those super active athletes who are going to need knee and hip replacements when they're older, they're definitely going to need (temporary) help.

I don't believe that anyone has argued that people with disabilities or crippling injuries should feel bad about hiring a cleaner in this thread. . . which would make this argument a straw man.  In fact, I've explicitly said that there's nothing wrong with hiring a cleaner if you physically cannot perform the task.

The issue lies with folks who get cleaners because they're lazy, because they have unresolved marital issues, because they've purchased a house that's much too large for them, or because they've over-committed their life.  Hiring a cleaner in those types of cases isn't really morally wrong either . . . but it is masking a problem that would be better served by addressing it head on.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 01:13:56 PM by GuitarStv »

Cassie

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #272 on: June 06, 2019, 01:06:29 PM »
Guitar, having cleaners is not masking a problem. Sometimes a dog is just a dog. 

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #273 on: June 06, 2019, 02:15:49 PM »
This is the MMM forum, not the Marxism 101 and Income Disparity Discussion forum. You may have come to the wrong place.

You're still new here, this is actually a totally normal direction for this thread to go in on this forum.

Interesting, and unfortunate!

You could try contacting MMM himself to see what view he would take on this thread.  I'd be interested in the result.


https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/18/why-your-time-is-worth-way-more-than-25-per-hour/

ysette9

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #274 on: June 06, 2019, 03:50:44 PM »
Guitar, having cleaners is not masking a problem. Sometimes a dog is just a dog.
Or there are just higher priority things in life. Everything is a compromise and we all make choices. The point Iíve gotten out of these forums is to make those choices with eyes wide open, so the money you spend aligns with your values. No judgement there. We are all going to have slightly different values and therefor spend money slightly differently.

Imma

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #275 on: June 06, 2019, 04:55:11 PM »


I also don't believe that employing a person who belongs to a more vulnerable group of people is necessarily a bad thing. The cleaner I used to employ has mental health issues that prevent her from having a regular job. Being a freelance cleaner allows her to set her own schedule and work on her own terms. This sounds pretty empowering to me. If no one hires these people they're going to stay vulnerable and poor forever.

Why don't you consider cleaning a 'regular job'?  I certainly considered it a regular job when I was working as a janitor in high school.  Getting and holding a job as a cleaner wasn't really any easier or more empowering than any other job that I had.  (Factory work, lumber yard, pest control technician, home depot order picker, etc.)

As I wrote, my cleaner works freelance, so no, she does not have a regular job. If she was an employee of a cleaning company, cleaning would be a regular job. In many jurisdictions, including my country, people who offer domestic services are not considered to be employees of the families who hire them.

What makes this a great deal for my cleaner is that because of mental health issues, two hours of normal speed cleaning can take her anything from 1 to 5 hours. Because she's a freelance worker, she can charge customers an agreed amount and take as long as she needs. A regular ( paid by the hour by an employer kind of)  job would not allow this. If she didn't have her cleaning jobs she'd be unemployed or hopping from one job to the other constantly. Cleaning has allowed her to get stability in her life.

What I meant with my comparison to car ownership is that both a cleaner and a car are luxuries that the vast majority of people don't strictly need to survive. You can bike, walk, take the bus or the train and move house if you live in a very remote place. When my grandparents grew up no one had a car and they were fine. Why people still choose to own a luxury item like a car is because it fits their lifestyle better. They don't want to ride 20km to work every day, because it doesn't fit into their life and they don't want to change their life so drastically to allow them to go without a car. In the very same way for most people having a cleaner is not strictly necessary for survival (not even for most disabled people) but it fits people's lifestyle better to have a cleaner rather than change something else to allow them the time to clean their own homes. They don't want to change their life so drastically to allow them to go without a cleaner (for example, switch jobs, work less hours, not going to college in the evenings or not taking on a new customer if they are self employed). While clown cars are of course questioned here it's very much accepted that a small old car is ok. Why is having a cleaner every now and then not ok? It's not like people are talking about a fulltime housekeeper and a butler. That would be ridiculous, like a clown car.


HBFIRE

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #276 on: June 06, 2019, 05:46:56 PM »

Or there are just higher priority things in life. Everything is a compromise and we all make choices. The point Iíve gotten out of these forums is to make those choices with eyes wide open, so the money you spend aligns with your values. No judgement there. We are all going to have slightly different values and therefor spend money slightly differently.

Exactly this.  We're all in different financial positions and have different values. 

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #277 on: June 06, 2019, 05:55:36 PM »
I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal.

HA!  You think we are frugal for the sake of being frugal?!?!

I still dont think you get the second of the equation so here is a pop quiz that might get the gears turning for you Bloop Bloop:
Your friend Bob spends $200 per month on house cleaning. How much does Bob need to save before he retires to cover his house cleaning costs in retirement?

The poster I was responding to was making the explicit argument that we should be frugal for the sake of being frugal. You will see the words I quoted in my message.

So it doesn't matter what you say. I was responding to the other poster, not you.

And if you'd read the rest of my message, you would have seen that Bob would have a different utility/cost valuation in retirement, since in retirement he would have a lot more spare time.

If you are going to respond snappily to posts, at least read them beforehand.

Okay, sorry to misinterpret. I dont think anyone is frugal for the sake of being frugal.

Hypothetically, lets pretend Bob is like most human beings and once accustomed to having his house cleaned for him he wont just start cleaning it himself when he retires. In our make believe pretend world how much would Bob need to save before he retires just to cover his $200 month house cleaning costs in retirement?
Here is a hint for your math problem: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Thanks for your apology. In your scenario, Bob should not employ a house cleaner at all. Because he is doing it out of laziness, not out of conscious time saving. It's like the difference between someone who buys expensive shoes after first doing a careful cost/benefit analysis (okay), versus someone buying expensive shoes because he thinks he might as well, after getting a pay raise (not okay).

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #278 on: June 06, 2019, 05:58:12 PM »
I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal.

HA!  You think we are frugal for the sake of being frugal?!?!

I still dont think you get the second of the equation so here is a pop quiz that might get the gears turning for you Bloop Bloop:
Your friend Bob spends $200 per month on house cleaning. How much does Bob need to save before he retires to cover his house cleaning costs in retirement?

The poster I was responding to was making the explicit argument that we should be frugal for the sake of being frugal. You will see the words I quoted in my message.

So it doesn't matter what you say. I was responding to the other poster, not you.

And if you'd read the rest of my message, you would have seen that Bob would have a different utility/cost valuation in retirement, since in retirement he would have a lot more spare time.

If you are going to respond snappily to posts, at least read them beforehand.

Am I missing something? You quoted Goldielocks as saying:

"Yes, most definitely.   MMM is about reducing all discretionary spending to achieve FIRE earlier, and to save the planet through our environmental / non consumerist choices.   Also about learning "bad ass" skills to know how to make your own life function independently of others.   A "can do" generalist for life, rather than a high wage slave specialist for 25 years."

This is not frugality for the sake of it, it's frugality for the sake of retiring and saving the planet.

Also, it would make back and forth conversations easier if you used the quote function. You can still snip out the parts you want to reference to avoid giant quotes, but knowing who you're quoting makes it easier to track the conversation.

I read it as frugality for its own sake. There were two parts that you helpfully highlighted. The first is 'to save the planet'. That comes from a frugal, anti-consumer / anti-waste mindset. The take-away I got from that is that frugality is something to be pursued for the inherent anti-consumer message. The second part, "to achieve FIRE earlier", is not frugality for its own sake - however, in context, it actually is - because the hypothetical that we were discussing is someone whose opportunity cost for the time foregone cleaning will actually be a lot more income down the track [hence faster FIRE].

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #279 on: June 06, 2019, 06:05:09 PM »
A fox, you are assuming Bob will not clean his house in retirement. I had cleaners while working and now clean myself. I have the time something I was short on before. I would rather direct that money somewhere else.

Can we agree that one who pays to have house cleaned while working will be less likely to do their own cleaning in retirement than one who does their own cleaning while working?

....


And as evidence that its affordable you and others keep pointing to the current costs while ignoring the much more significant cost of increasing your expenses while in retirement/disability. My point is that your math for justifying your cleaning is wrong.

So why is it that you ask for an example of a mustachian approach to using a cleaner, which I and others provide, and then your counter-factual is that Bob is going to be non-mustachian in retirement (by still using a service after its justification has passed)? That seems to me to be moving the goalposts.

I give you a scenario where Bob is a high earner and you say he is just an "exceptional" case. Others give you examples of why they happily use cleaners and/or stopped using cleaners in retirement and you also disregard that. Now, you revert to a statement of "less likelihood" - it may be that the general population is less likely to give up something they are accustomed to, but the question is whether mustachians would do the same, so your premise is flawed.

 To me, my cleaner is like my secretary - a tool for me to avoid menial tasks while I'm working. I can assure you that after I retire I will no longer need my secretary, or my cleaner, either. I haven't planned on paying either of them as part of my retirement phase.

You say in blanket terms that "your math for justifying your cleaning is wrong." I haven't even used my real income figures- I assure you the disparity in hourly rate for a professional versus a cleaner, at least where I live, is even greater than that for Bob. It's a little unsettling that you are denying my, and others', lived experience on this thread, apparently just to make an ideological point.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 06:15:09 PM by Bloop Bloop »

the_fixer

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #280 on: June 06, 2019, 06:38:53 PM »
Thank you all for showing me the error of my ways.

Thanks to you I have decided to fire the house cleaner. This will not only save the $70 every other week but also save me from having to work an extra two hours per month.

Granted I will have to go out and buy cleaning supplies, a mop and a duster (already have a vacuum) and set aside ~ 10 hours of time per month for cleaning but hey it's BAD ASS to spend that time doing it myself you know.

Of course I could split this effort with my wife of 23 years bring it down to a measly 5 hours each but I know it will end up in multiple fights so I have to either do it myself or fight about it...

Then again I could just divorce her as mentioned above and solve all of my problems, I mean after all she is a great spouse, kind, caring, earns a nice living and accepts that I am human and not perfect but this is just something I can no longer accept... She should be perfect in every way or I should not have to put up with it she is bringing me down and delaying my FIRE date.

Signed divorced, living in a van down by the river with a fire date of the day I die....

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Cassie

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #281 on: June 06, 2019, 08:35:20 PM »
Fixer, too funny!  If I get to old to clean I will resume my cleaners.  My aunt hired them at 90.

the_fixer

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #282 on: June 06, 2019, 09:42:41 PM »
Figured we could all use a good laugh and was feeling a bit snarky after a week on the road glad you enjoyed it :)


As a bonus I earned 2.5 months of house cleaning this week by taking a beautiful drive through the mountains including stopping to eat lunch by a mountain stream and taking a break here to watch it snow.




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Bloop Bloop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #283 on: June 06, 2019, 11:04:19 PM »
Fixer, have you considered downgrading your house to a shack and riding a bike instead of a motorcycle? That would allow you to still retire early while dropping your yearly spend. This would allow you to drop your hourly earning rate to no more than that of a cleaner. You would be saving the planet, and cutting down your expenses, while avoiding the unfairness inherent in capitalism of having different marginal utility curves.

Just a gentle suggestion.

the_fixer

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #284 on: June 06, 2019, 11:27:27 PM »
Fixer, have you considered downgrading your house to a shack and riding a bike instead of a motorcycle? That would allow you to still retire early while dropping your yearly spend. This would allow you to drop your hourly earning rate to no more than that of a cleaner. You would be saving the planet, and cutting down your expenses, while avoiding the unfairness inherent in capitalism of having different marginal utility curves.

Just a gentle suggestion.
Actually I sold my motorized racing couch (aka  Subaru WRX) and only have a bicycle. However my work does provide me with a motorized couch that I get to drive back and forth to the non profit that I work for.

My wife takes the bus (free bus pass from work) or rides her bike to her government job.

We sold our huge house ~4800 sf and moved into a shack (1600 SF)

We both stopped working for the greedy capitalist publicly traded companies and took pay cuts about 15k in her case and 8k in my case

Does this work like carbon credits? Have we earned enough offsets to keep the cleaning lady?





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Goldielocks

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #285 on: June 06, 2019, 11:59:17 PM »
I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal.

HA!  You think we are frugal for the sake of being frugal?!?!

I still dont think you get the second of the equation so here is a pop quiz that might get the gears turning for you Bloop Bloop:
Your friend Bob spends $200 per month on house cleaning. How much does Bob need to save before he retires to cover his house cleaning costs in retirement?

The poster I was responding to was making the explicit argument that we should be frugal for the sake of being frugal. You will see the words I quoted in my message.

So it doesn't matter what you say. I was responding to the other poster, not you.

And if you'd read the rest of my message, you would have seen that Bob would have a different utility/cost valuation in retirement, since in retirement he would have a lot more spare time.

If you are going to respond snappily to posts, at least read them beforehand.

The point of being frugal is to achieve FIRE (a major goal) and gain freedom sooner.   Not for the sake of being frugal.  Discretionary spending should all be evaluated against that goal.   Yes, sometimes, we spend now because it outweighs the FREEDOM goal in a few years, but moderate discretionary spending (travel, cleaners, eating out a lot, etc) should defintely be calculated to determine its true impact on FIRE to help one decide if it is worth it.

Plus..  there are the MMM points about being badass in general with your skills (an undercurrent, of "why don't you just try to learn to do things yourself, you may surprise yourself"..) and the point that being frugal is generally very pro-environment.  (not always, but less consumeristic is a huge win for environment).


Goldielocks

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #286 on: June 07, 2019, 12:14:29 AM »
I liked the poster's comment upthread related to the fact that doing some of these tasks yourself (e.g., car repair) is either not possible, or not possible to do well.

I don't think that is a reason / excuse for not trying.   Now FIRED, I have a lot more time to try things (and to bike most places, but that is another topic).   I am trying to learn car repair...  I have rotated tires and changed oil before I was 20, once or twice, but never since.  I am not attempting that and other minor car and appliance maintenance / repair.

I will definitely say that it is not going well.  I don't actually break things more, which is the good news, but typically take things to the mechanic anyway.  (I am good at knowing when it is not fixed yet).

What it has done is allowed me to communicate so much better with the mechanic, (or appliance repair) and that alone has dropped my maintenance costs.

Parizade

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #287 on: June 07, 2019, 05:41:25 AM »
@fixer-upper  and @Bloop Bloop thanks for the laughs, you brightened up my Friday coffee hour

Boganvillia

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #288 on: June 13, 2019, 12:32:54 PM »
We have a 200m2 house with 6 occupants (4 adults, 2 kids), and we do our own cleaning despite full time jobs.

Paid cleaners would not lighten our housework load appreciably. The picking up and tidying, then next in line would be laundry, are more urgent and are best chipped away at on a daily basis. Cleaning gets tacked onto the end of that, if possible: eg if a room is tidied then it may receive a vacuum too to finish off, if there's time.

Weekends are fairly pressed: here's where the dusting attachment gets put onto the vacuum cleaner, surfaces are dusted, furniture is moved (more missing library books discovered, yay), bathrooms are mopped, basins wiped, toilets scrubbed, kitchen cabinets might get a wipedown.

The fridge might be wiped out by the parent not currently out doing the major shop, whilst the fridge is semi empty. (Do cleaners even do that? I guess they might).

These second tier, not quite surface tasks, just get done when someone notices.

It's important to have clean clothes and bedding, fresh food, and for the kitchen to receive daily attention. Beyond that, the standard we generally aim for is 'non-revolting'.

I am the female head of household and do not touch others' laundry baskets - the boys 7 and 8 do their own. Meals my husband and I take turns cooking, and whoever doesn't cook cleans up. I explicitly brokered all this when I went back to work full time notwithstanding my job was/is by then paid much less, as it still takes up a full time load.

Cleaning is something I am content to DIY. Car mechanics, definitely not!

wannabe-stache

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #289 on: June 13, 2019, 02:00:18 PM »


Quote
Hi, thanks for your reply and for addressing the points I'd raised.

I think the crux of our disagreement is here, when you say:

"Yes, most definitely.   MMM is about reducing all discretionary spending to achieve FIRE earlier, and to save the planet through our environmental / non consumerist choices.   Also about learning "bad ass" skills to know how to make your own life function independently of others.   A "can do" generalist for life, rather than a high wage slave specialist for 25 years."

I don't read into MMM the need to reduce all discretionary spending, i.e. be frugal for the sake of being frugal. I agree that a lot of discretionary spending is driven by impulse, status, unexamined habit or other problematic things - and that should be examined and cut down - but I don't agree that MMM requires the sort of stoical frugality in all aspects of life that you and a few others have stated. You seem to be equating MMM with LeanFIRE, and while I don't try to equate MMM with FatFIRE, I don't believe MMM skews only to one side of the spectrum. For example, while I laud your consistency in also trying to service your own car etc, I think that many in this thread (including those who decry cleaning) would not be as handy.

Also, you say that a cleaner would cost $40/hr in your neck of the woods. That is way higher than the going rate for a cleaner here in Australia. There are no wage protections to cleaners because you don't hire them as your employees; you hire their services as contractors. Part of my cleaning bill is also deductible because a significant portion of my home is used as a home office.

Finally, you do most of your own chores for environmental reasons and for a desire fr skills/good habits (I might call this 'self sufficiency' in general). While most people would agree that these are great things to have, not everyone places the same value on these relative to time savings or effort savings. I am pretty sure, for example, I will FIRE earlier by outsourcing stuff than I would by becoming self-sufficient, and for me the main goal is to FIRE early.

+1

people are way to dogmatic about so many things on this thread.

i gave up a 20-year, 5 cup/day coffee habit 3 months ago.  we drink good coffee too, from new orleans.  it was not a cheap habit.

i gave it up because it became a crutch to get me out of bed and into the gym or out for a run.  had nothing to do with saving the world by applying mustachian ways.  and yes it saves a lot of money as a nice byproduct.

my family also pays for a house cleaner every other week, $120 per cleaning.  we could do it ourselves (and indeed do light cleanings as needed) but we have a dog, a toddler, hobbies (cooking, gardening, biking, running, etc) that take up our time.  sorry but me spending $120 on cleaning to allow me some sanity is well worth it to me.

we also have a dual income house where we both make well into the 6 figures but regardless, FFS people, YMMFV.

Mrs. D.

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #290 on: June 13, 2019, 08:01:38 PM »
How could I possibly tell my son that he's responsible for cleaning up the messes he makes in his room if I simply pay someone else to clean up the messes I make?

Because I have a house cleaner come once a month so my kids see me cleaning up about 98% of the messes I/they/we make. I'm at home with my two young children and we prep and eat all our meals and snacks at home, do activities, house projects, gardening together, etc. Trust me, my kids are not lacking for opportunities to see mommy clean up.

At about the one month mark, the house gets dirty to the point that I really can't stand it and it starts to affect my psyche. And then the house cleaner comes to scrub bathrooms and vacuum and wipe the dust from the blinds and my soul is set right again. Money well spent. Also, getting a house cleaner was a compromise position when I took a part-time job that would add about 10-12 hours of work per week. That time had to come from somewhere.

Dicey

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #291 on: June 14, 2019, 01:50:09 PM »
FFS people, YMMFV.

...Trust me, my kids are not lacking for opportunities to see mommy clean up...

At about the one month mark, the house gets dirty to the point that I really can't stand it and it starts to affect my psyche. And then the house cleaner comes to scrub bathrooms and vacuum and wipe the dust from the blinds and my soul is set right again.
I like the way you guys think.



accolay

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #292 on: June 14, 2019, 04:03:44 PM »
Never.

I'd like to see the breakdown of responses on a chart with income levels. But even if I had money to burn, I don't like strangers being around or picking up after me or doing something that I can do myself. I don't like being waited on or served.

Malcat

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #293 on: June 15, 2019, 04:50:43 AM »
Never.

I'd like to see the breakdown of responses on a chart with income levels. But even if I had money to burn, I don't like strangers being around or picking up after me or doing something that I can do myself. I don't like being waited on or served.

Well...yeah...the time trade off makes less sense when it's a 1:1 trade off of time and money. So people with incomes that make that ratio a lot more favourable are more likely to accept that trade.
That said, not everyone has control over their work schedules. So, for some, I imagine it's even worthwhile when it's closer to a 1:1 tradeoff ratio if they are obliged to work long hours.

I personally never felt "waited on or served", my cleaner was a professional whose services I contracted, no different from the painter I hired for my last condo, or the condo staff who shovel my snow, rake my leaves, and mow my lawn, which are all tasks we could do ourselves, but absolutely love that we don't have to.

I feel more like *I* wait on people in my work in patient care than any of these people have waited on me.

I'm not saying your perspective isn't valid, I'm just sharing how differing perspectives can be.

accolay

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #294 on: June 15, 2019, 06:16:43 PM »
I feel more like *I* wait on people in my work in patient care than any of these people have waited on me.

I'm not saying your perspective isn't valid, I'm just sharing how differing perspectives can be.

Well... yeah. My work in patient care delivers much more customer service and waiting on patients and families than a house cleaner would ever deliver to me. That's the job.

My perspective probably would be less valid if this wasn't the MMM forum. It's your cash so do what you want, but because where I live and how I was raised it's weird, especially when I hear a DINK family whine about having to hire a cleaner because their lives are just sooo busy that they can't even clean their immediate living environment.

I personally never felt "waited on or served", my cleaner was a professional whose services I contracted, no different from the painter I hired for my last condo, or the condo staff who shovel my snow, rake my leaves, and mow my lawn, which are all tasks we could do ourselves, but absolutely love that we don't have to.
I confess I might have these services done too... either when I hit six zeros or when I'm physically unable to.

Kepler

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #295 on: June 15, 2019, 11:34:22 PM »
I picked "occasionally", but really we only hire cleaners for one specific kind of "occasion", which is moving house.  Frankly, the move-out cleaners are usually not very good - I'd never engage them to clean a place we were actually living in.  But just handing over a cleaning receipt when we turn in the keys, seems to tick the box for most agents - maybe they realise that, if they were to try to dock our bond for cleanliness, no tribunal magistrate is going to agree with them that the place wasn't 'reasonably clean' after a professional went through it...  It's not a high cost, saves hassle when we would rather focus on moving into our new place - and usually comes with a 'guarantee' that means, if the landlord does want something more, the cleaner agrees to go deal with it, so we can move on and not have to worry about the old house again. 

Otherwise, though, we do everything ourselves.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #296 on: June 16, 2019, 02:40:12 AM »
We have never hired house cleaners but I feel like I've hit some kind of wall and just contacted my friend's house cleaner to come once every 2 weeks.  The problem is that my husband works all the time including weekends and I work full time 40 hours a week. We have 2 kids. I clean bathrooms, kitchen etc and deal with piles of crap most weekends but still the house is just dusty and dirty. 


Other problem is that my husband just doesn't care about mess.  It's as if he doesn't see it.  We've had this argument so many times and I just can't deal anymore.

JTColton

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Re: Do you pay for house cleaners?
« Reply #297 on: June 16, 2019, 11:26:13 AM »
Never have and never will. If the military teaches you anything its how to clean very efficiently.